Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[SueB]

*waves enthusiastically at ZennyKenny*  Hi!  Glad you're here!

[ZennyKenny]

Shoot in the old days people watched shows where the conflict was too weak.  My problem is that always trying to make the stakes about death has now actually created a blank reaction to me.  I don't find it thrilling nor does it pull me in.  It just makes me mad and want to stop watching.

 

Thank you for the warm welcome. :)

 

I feel like a major problem is that they feel they have to 1-up themselves every season by increasing the stakes. But by season 10, what can they do? They did Satan and the apocalypse in season 5, kinda hard to top that. So they have that threat of death as a way to keep people invested I guess.

 

But sometimes they go a different direction and I think it works better. Ex: season 7 with the Leviathans (whom I LOVED, btw). It wasn't a biblical apocalypse, but it was a threat to humankind in a similar way. They also had the Mother of monsters, which imo they could have made a season-long threat if they did it right. So much potential there.

 

I'm with you about the blank reaction thing. A big part of the tension needs to be that many people are saved. Then the threat of them being killed becomes real, because you're honestly wondering whether they will survive, rather than expecting them to die. Sadly, they do this with the Winchesters. Which is, like, come on give me a break. You're not going to kill off the two main characters, so please quit trying to convince me that you just might. When Dean had the sythe to Sam's head, even my wife said "oh come on they're not going to kill of Sam!" She didn't buy it for a second. That sort of structure should be happening with the secondary characters, not the primary ones.

[AwesomO4000]

But sometimes they go a different direction and I think it works better. Ex: season 7 with the Leviathans (whom I LOVED, btw). It wasn't a biblical apocalypse, but it was a threat to humankind in a similar way.

 

You'll find a few of us here who enjoyed the Leviathans. And some of us who like season 7 in general as well (I fall into both categories). You will often recognize us by seeing sometimes inappropriate-looking comments in our posts, but we are just expressing our love of Dick Roman. We swear. ; ) Oh and by the way, some of us also happen to have inner 12 year olds that sometimes come out before we get a chance to reign them in. I apologize in advance for mine... she is incorrigible.

 

Hopefully you won't find us too scary and continue to drop by often. I especially enjoy discussing the merits of season 7 and the often under-appreciated (in my opinion) Leviathans (in addition to Dick, I also loved Chet. I even enjoyed Edgar and the real estate lady Leviathan... and of course Leviathan Sam and Dean).

[ZennyKenny]

Yes! I loved all of those characters! I also enjoyed watching Dick's rise (ahem) in power (I've been surrounded by immaturity my whole life, so I'm pretty used to it lol).

 

What I find frustrating is that on the SPN FB groups that I join, all anyone ever wants to talk about is how hot the actors are. Hardly anyone wants to talk about the actual show. Season 7 in particular was fascinating to me with its parallells to real life. Dick Roman heading a big business company that controls our food, putting things in the corn syrup that dumb us down and make us obese? Am I the only one seeing the satire here? Yet nobody seemed to notice this or talk about it.

 

Ok, now that I'm able to post, I can finally get more bitterness off of my chest!

 

Before my wife got into SPN, I watched seasons 4-5 alone. Then started watching 6. I knew that there was a new showrunner, and so when they so drastically changed Sam's character, I quit watching because I thought they just didn't know how to write him anymore. It wasn't until I later watched the entire season with my wife that I found out that there was a valid reason for the personality change (having no soul).

 

So when they again changed Sam's personality in season 8, turning him into a selfish, bitchy, uncaring, insufferable douchebag, I patiently waited for the big reveal as to why he was acting so out-of-character. Only the reveal never came. Apparently there WAS no reason.

 

So yeah. I have nothing to say except that really sucked, and season 7 was the last one I really enjoyed (save for a few episodes here and there, like "Fan Fiction"). But I've been wanting to vent about that since forever.

[DittyDotDot]

What I find frustrating is that on the SPN FB groups that I join, all anyone ever wants to talk about is how hot the actors are. Hardly anyone wants to talk about the actual show. Season 7 in particular was fascinating to me with its parallells to real life. Dick Roman heading a big business company that controls our food, putting things in the corn syrup that dumb us down and make us obese? Am I the only one seeing the satire here? Yet nobody seemed to notice this or talk about it.

 

Oh yeah, S7 was all about turning humans into cattle. I enjoyed that aspect of S7--even if they didn't always get that aspect right--and many other aspects of S7, too. Yes, I'm one of the nine weirdos who actually liked S7. ;)

 

BTW, welcome to our little nuthouse! 

[Omegamom]

Hi, ZennyKenny! I'm another fan of S07. I thought Dick was the smarmiest, vilest villain, but also wildly funny. And the satire and pokes at the modern world were fun. And we got Kevin and Charlie. And Frank, who is right off of any doom-saying conspiracy-theorist internet group. And we got an in-depth look at the personality changes that being a ghost causes. And it all led into PTSD Dean at the beginning of S08, which I thought was excellently played by Jensen.

[catrox14]

Hi Kenny! I,too, am a big lover of Dick.  And enjoyed the Leviathan arc.  I loved Slash Fiction.  Dick Roman remains my favorite villain with all apologies to Crowley and Azazel. Loved the performance by James Patrick Stuart. He gave Dick his all and I loved it.

 

Wasn't a fan of the never ending "What's Wrong With Sam 7.0" but meh, I got me some good Dick in spite of it.

 

So there you go!

[ZennyKenny]

Oh yeah, S7 was all about turning humans into cattle. I enjoyed that aspect of S7--even if they didn't always get that aspect right--and many other aspects of S7, too. Yes, I'm one of the nine weirdos who actually liked S7. ;)

 

BTW, welcome to our little nuthouse! 

 

Thank you! *Castiel Leviathin voice* "This is going to be fun!"

And Frank, who is right off of any doom-saying conspiracy-theorist internet group.

 

I gotta say though, that was one of the things that I didn't like, As much as I did like Frank as a character, it felt like a slap in the face to have him replace Bobby (sort of, imo). They said in an interview that they wanted to strip down the boys to only them. So they killed off Castiel and Bobby. Not liking it, but ok whatever. So then why introduce Frank and have him work with Dean?

[catrox14]

I think Frank was introduced because they needed someone to tell Dean that he had to find a way to do his job or get out. Sam couldn't do it and Bobby was dead so there you go. I also think they needed to introduce the idea of a outside computer whiz to take the burden off Sam* and to prep us to meet Charlie who became the new computer whiz.

 

*Because God knows Dean couldn't be allowed to be THAT smart anymore even though he was Mr Electronics Whiz in s1 what with making his own EMF and then rebuilding the Impala twice which clearly included rebuilding the electrical system....but I'm not bitter.

[ZennyKenny]

Yeah, I guess. But Bobby had already lectured him on that, so it was kind of redundant. But I guess Bobby only told him TO get his head in the game, and Frank told him HOW to do that.

 

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about how wishy-washy they make Dean's relation to technology. One minute he's messing around with celphones to trick Sam, the next he doesn't know what facebook is.

[catrox14]

 

 

Yeah, I guess. But Bobby had already lectured him on that, so it was kind of redundant. But I guess Bobby only told him TO get his head in the game, and Frank told him HOW to do that.

 

Dean was not coping very well with Bobby's death, Sam's psychological issues, and wanting vengeance on Dick at this point. And the one thing Dean had always fallen back on was hunting and hunter's helper but now that wasn't working. I think Dean could listen Frank because Frank had no skin in the game emotionally for Dean. It was a practical thing for Frank. JMHO

[SueB]

I loved that little buttercup Frank.

[AwesomO4000]

I think Frank was introduced because they needed someone to tell Dean that he had to find a way to do his job or get out. Sam couldn't do it and Bobby was dead so there you go. I also think they needed to introduce the idea of a outside computer whiz to take the burden off Sam* and to prep us to meet Charlie who became the new computer whiz.

 

*Because God knows Dean couldn't be allowed to be THAT smart anymore even though he was Mr Electronics Whiz in s1 what with making his own EMF and then rebuilding the Impala twice which clearly included rebuilding the electrical system....but I'm not bitter.

 

I disagree that Dean was shown as not smart here. Frank - who I adored - was there because he had resources that Sam and Dean did not have at this point. I would not have believed Dean being able to do major hacking while squatting in the types of places they had to stay during this period.They were often rigging up electricity with some battery clamps (?) and chewing gum - okay not literally chewing gum, but still... - and they didn't know when it was going to crap out. It was already straining credibility that they were able to access internet at all in many of these places, never mind the amount of data stream needed to hack into stuff. Still, despite those limitations, Frank taught Dean how to hack into surveillance cameras and Dean was able to do that with no problem and teach Sam how to do it.

 

Computer stuff, as far as I can tell, is a specialty of its own. I'm a scientist, but I'm lucky if I can get my computer to print something properly. Even though Dean has machine electronics knowledge, I don't expect him to be able to do computer hacking, just as I don't expect somewhat computer geeky Sam to be able to do machine electronics stuff - and I thought it was ridiculous that they even suggested such in season 8. But I guess maybe it's because I'm in a profession that has a lot of specialists. There are just too many different kinds of insects - it's a rare person who knows all the different kinds. Not even the taxonomic words are the same between groups.

 

I gotta say though, that was one of the things that I didn't like, As much as I did like Frank as a character, it felt like a slap in the face to have him replace Bobby (sort of, imo). They said in an interview that they wanted to strip down the boys to only them. So they killed off Castiel and Bobby. Not liking it, but ok whatever. So then why introduce Frank and have him work with Dean?

 

The first reason I think is what I said above - that Frank had resources that the brothers didn't. Frank was introduced before Bobby was killed when Bobby was often on the run with Sam and Dean - since Bobby's home was burned down, he no longer had access to all of his resources in a convenient location. And secondly it allowed for Dean to have a resource other than Sam, because Dean didn't always want Sam to know about how his obsession with finding Dick Roman was affecting him... so he could have Frank do some of that research when he was working a case with Sam. Dean was already doing so much research on his own that it was affecting his health - an excellent cut scene from "Time After Time..." showed that Dean even took time to research when he would usually be enjoying some down time instead.  Frank was able to take some of that burden off of Dean, so Dean wouldn't feel guilty about working a case. Dean could be less distracted if he knew Frank was working on it - still, he would often call Frank while on the road during a case to check up on Frank's progress. I didn't see the addition of Frank as taking away from Dean at all. They had never tackled such a tech savvy foe before, so to me it made perfect sense that they would need a professional with professional resources.

 

 

What I find frustrating is that on the SPN FB groups that I join, all anyone ever wants to talk about is how hot the actors are. Hardly anyone wants to talk about the actual show. Season 7 in particular was fascinating to me with its parallells to real life. Dick Roman heading a big business company that controls our food, putting things in the corn syrup that dumb us down and make us obese? Am I the only one seeing the satire here? Yet nobody seemed to notice this or talk about it.

 

We discussed somewhere here recently how season 7 overall had a very dark humor vibe to it compared to some of the other seasons, and I think your satire observation fits in with that very well.

 

So when they again changed Sam's personality in season 8, turning him into a selfish, bitchy, uncaring, insufferable douchebag, I patiently waited for the big reveal as to why he was acting so out-of-character. Only the reveal never came. Apparently there WAS no reason.

So yeah. I have nothing to say except that really sucked, and season 7 was the last one I really enjoyed (save for a few episodes here and there, like "Fan Fiction"). But I've been wanting to vent about that since forever.

 

I couldn't agree more.* I would expand on this, but I've ranted so much about this already that I would only be repeating myself. I love both Sam and Dean, but had generally favored Sam. Seeing what Carver did to the character in season 8 (I call it character assassination myself) made me so annoyed I stopped watching the show for a while... and I had watched live in real time since episode 1, so it was a major feat that he had accomplished - in a bad way.

 

* Except I did like most of season 10... at least up until Stupid Sam of the final episodes... We'll see if that gets fixed or not. But at least I started recognizing Sam again - he is reminding me more of season 7 Sam again - and that was a major improvement for me at least.

[7kstar]

Yes! I loved all of those characters! I also enjoyed watching Dick's rise (ahem) in power (I've been surrounded by immaturity my whole life, so I'm pretty used to it lol).

 

What I find frustrating is that on the SPN FB groups that I join, all anyone ever wants to talk about is how hot the actors are. Hardly anyone wants to talk about the actual show. Season 7 in particular was fascinating to me with its parallells to real life. Dick Roman heading a big business company that controls our food, putting things in the corn syrup that dumb us down and make us obese? Am I the only one seeing the satire here? Yet nobody seemed to notice this or talk about it.

 

Oh the satire...yep I got it.  Also how they poke fun of people that aren't active by now having a reason as a big bad to drug them into the Hansel and Gretel story.  Can't eat ya till your plump! 

 

I don't think you'll find a problem finding someone to discuss an idea.  Yes, we still see the pretty and will always see the pretty...but we like looking at the issues too.  So write away.  Someone will respond.  *insert evil laugh here*  :)

[catrox14]

 

Frank taught Dean how to hack into surveillance cameras and Dean was able to do that with no problem and teach Sam how to do it.

 

In general his intellect and inventive capacity is not consistently written or portrayed and I don't know why that is.

 

In s1 he's inventing electronic devices which requires an aptitude for electronics which could easily translate to building computers. There is no reason it can't. It's all circuitry and components. Programming is an entirely different thing. But give him the tools and he can figure it out. Then he was shown researching in books with little push to do so early on and then sporadically he's too lazy or whatever or it's implied that he doesn't read, which is just not true.

 

In other episodes he's portrayed as a total Luddite that doesn't understand modern computers or phones. Then it veers back to oh hey I downloaded an app and I use it for such and such and then a few episodes later he doesn't know what the fuck FB is?

 

Did he suffer brain injury or something? I mean it's a real sore spot for me because there is no logical reason character wise for Dean to be dumbed down for plot reasons. I hate it.

[catrox14]

 

at least up until Stupid Sam of the final episodes...

 

 

 

Bad emotional decision making is where Sam falters IMO. But he's always intellectually capable. He still could download his email (you know when the wifi came through). He taught Claire how to commit credit card fraud.

 

Even in his bull headedness about Dean, he was smart enough to get the resources and coordinate things. He was also smart enough in the Werther Project to figure out how to use a spell which was good and bad,  Sam has never been shown to been a Luddite or a technophobe. He's always been book smart if overreaching and making some poor decisions which is not the same thing as being unintelligent IMO.  MMV

[ZennyKenny]

Wish I'd have been around for season 7 on the forum (or TVwithoutPity; I think that was still active back then, right?). Being able to discuss upcoming episodes or season 11 is kinda getting me excited about watching it again. Even if it's bad, at least I'll be able to vent with people. :)

[ZennyKenny]

* Except I did like most of season 10... at least up until Stupid Sam of the final episodes... We'll see if that gets fixed or not. But at least I started recognizing Sam again - he is reminding me more of season 7 Sam again - and that was a major improvement for me at least.

 

I honestly think that season 10 is my least favorite. Season 8 had Benny, and I really liked him. Season 9 I really cannot even remember, so I'm neutral on that I guess. But season 10... my memories are clouded by my extreme dislike of the first few episodes and the last few episode that I spent some time reading some of the summaries on the SPNwiki to help me remember. Then I realized that I had no interest in going back and re-watching any of that.

[AwesomO4000]

But he's always intellectually capable. He still could download his email (you know when the wifi came through). He taught Claire how to commit credit card fraud.

 

Though maybe not as inconsistently as Dean, I don't know if Sam has been written consistently either in that regard. Supposedly Sam was a "mathlete", but later Bobby chided Castiel for thinking Sam could even remotely understand differential equations, and Sam had a clueless look on his face.

 

And it's true that Sam figured out how to use the spell in "The Werther Project" to open the safe, but he wasn't clever enough to figure out that the spell was trying to get him to commit suicide. Dean, however was smart enough to figure that out even though he had less clues than Sam had. Dean was actually smart enough to break himself out of the spell. Sam wasn't, and would've died had Dean not saved him.

 

Also Sam was the one who thought that the word of God might be written by a Transformer.

 

But I guess usually with Sam, it's more his fighting smarts that are dumbed down for plot purposes. In "Nightshifter" Sam's able to take down two S.W.A.T. guys, yet in "As Time Goes By" he's the placid hostage not even attempting to fight back, and in between he's taken out by a bonk on the head numerous times. (There are probably too many incidences to mention here)... though this likely applies to Dean too, but I don't think as much. Dean is less often the damsel in distress for plot purposes than Sam is.

 

Wish I'd have been around for season 7 on the forum (or TVwithoutPity; I think that was still active back then, right?). Being able to discuss upcoming episodes or season 11 is kinda getting me excited about watching it again. Even if it's bad, at least I'll be able to vent with people. :)

 

I was also over on TWoP. It's nicer here. Things could get nasty over there. Things are more respectful here, in my opinion.

 

And we still sometimes discuss season 7 here. If you check out the "Past Seasons" section for season 7, just add a comment to any of the episode threads and a discussion may start up again. Also the "All episodes Talk" thread and this thread also contain some season 7 discussion (as well as other seasons). The season 7 as dark comedy discussion was fairly recent if I recall.

 

Edited to add:

But season 10... my memories are clouded by my extreme dislike of the first few episodes and the last few episode that I spent some time reading some of the summaries on the SPNwiki to help me remember.

 

I think I most liked that Sam looked for Dean this time - unlike season 8 where not looking seemed out of character to me. I also liked that Sam was successful in helping Dean for once (I liked the demon curing in "Soul Survivor"), and in general, Sam seemed like Sam to me again. Then there were a few fun episodes - "Fan Fiction", "Ask Jeeves," and "Hibbing 911." Then there was an up and down period, but quite a few of the last episodes were very good for me - starting with "Inside Man" (I like when Sam and Castiel get to interact). The finale was a bit of a mess in some ways, but up until then, I was enjoying things.

 

Overall I still prefer season 7 and quite a few of the earlier seasons, but for me 10 was a big improvement over season 8 and 9.

Edited September 25, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

They have both been written really inconsistently as far as their intelligence. I don't understand why some writers seem to like Idiot Character instead of smart character but some seem to.

[DittyDotDot]

It's a lazy writer's trap. It's easier to write your characters as dumb to get the plot to work than it is sit down and think of a way it could happen with your characters not being foolish. 

 

I generally think of both Sam and Dean as smart, just different kind of smart. Dean is problem-solver type of smart--sees how things connect and can draw conclusions and a plan of action from that--probably why he's good at building things. Sam is the book-learned type of smart--needs the tables and graphs to formulate his plan of action--and why he's good with the research. 

 

However, I totally agree, both Sam and Dean are written to be both geniuses and complete idiots whenever the plot necessitate it. 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Though maybe not as inconsistently as Dean, I don't know if Sam has been written consistently either in that regard. Supposedly Sam was a "mathlete", but later Bobby chided Castiel for thinking Sam could even remotely understand differential equations, and Sam had a clueless look on his face.

 

And it's true that Sam figured out how to use the spell in "The Werther Project" to open the safe, but he wasn't clever enough to figure out that the spell was trying to get him to commit suicide. Dean, however was smart enough to figure that out even though he had less clues than Sam had. Dean was actually smart enough to break himself out of the spell. Sam wasn't, and would've died had Dean not saved him.

 

Also Sam was the one who thought that the word of God might be written by a Transformer.

 

But I guess usually with Sam, it's more his fighting smarts that are dumbed down for plot purposes. In "Nightshifter" Sam's able to take down two S.W.A.T. guys, yet in "As Time Goes By" he's the placid hostage not even attempting to fight back, and in between he's taken out by a bonk on the head numerous times. (There are probably too many incidences to mention here)... though this likely applies to Dean too, but I don't think as much. Dean is less often the damsel in distress for plot purposes than Sam is.

 

 

I was also over on TWoP. It's nicer here. Things could get nasty over there. Things are more respectful here, in my opinion.

 

And we still sometimes discuss season 7 here. If you check out the "Past Seasons" section for season 7, just add a comment to any of the episode threads and a discussion may start up again. Also the "All episodes Talk" thread and this thread also contain some season 7 discussion (as well as other seasons). The season 7 as dark comedy discussion was fairly recent if I recall.

 

Edited to add:

 

I think I most liked that Sam looked for Dean this time - unlike season 8 where not looking seemed out of character to me. I also liked that Sam was successful in helping Dean for once (I liked the demon curing in "Soul Survivor"), and in general, Sam seemed like Sam to me again. Then there were a few fun episodes - "Fan Fiction", "Ask Jeeves," and "Hibbing 911." Then there was an up and down period, but quite a few of the last episodes were very good for me - starting with "Inside Man" (I like when Sam and Castiel get to interact). The finale was a bit of a mess in some ways, but up until then, I was enjoying things.

 

Overall I still prefer season 7 and quite a few of the earlier seasons, but for me 10 was a big improvement over season 8 and 9.

I really liked season 10. The Werther Project, Inside Man, Fan Fiction, Hibbing 911, The Prisoner, Soul Survivor.....Actually the Werther episode actually made me anxious that Sam was going to bleed to death and I haven't felt anxious like that (in a good way!) in a while.

[DittyDotDot]

I too really liked The Werther Project. I'd even call it best of S10, but not sure if it's an actual compliment to do so considering how little I care for most of the rest of the season. 

[catrox14]

I've been rewatching s10 and despite the annoying early truncation of the demon!dean because Fan Fiction reasons and some pretty bad episodes and Dean and Sam being numbskulls for plot reasons, I ultimately I really like s10.  It felt more balanced overall.

 

Of course,  maybe I've just been beaten down by the show to where I just accept that write Dean and Sam to fit the dumbass plot instead of making the plot fit the characters, which I hate more than anything. I think that's why I never hated BSG or LOST in the end as they stayed true to the characters even with the meh endings. IMO s10 of SPN had some of the best episodes* of the entire series.

 

*Reichenbach/Soul Survivor (I don't care if there wasn't a to be continued, It's one episode in my head!)

*Inside Man

*The Prisoner

*Executioner's Song

*Werther Project

 

There were some really compelling scenes or humor to keep even the mostly bad episodes from being totally unsalvageable... well all those not named Halt and Catch Fire and Paper Moon(although I can watch the boys just sit by the lake for days). JMO

Edited September 25, 2015 by catrox14

[FlickChick]

I also enjoyed S10. After the absolutely horrible S8 (with the exception of the Purgatory story), and the angst-manufactured S9, I found S10 refreshing. I liked that Sam seemed more like the Sam of earlier days, and was actively trying to help his brother, albeit to a bad consequence.

 

Welcome kenny. I'm with you on S7 with the Leviathans and Dick Roman. Absolutely loved his smarmy character. However, I also enjoyed Frank and thought he brought some crazy levity to his episodes. All opinions are welcomed here, so feel free to speak your mind. And yes, we too, think the guys are gorgeous, we just don't dwell on it.

[amensisterfriend]

I just rewatched most of S4 for the first time in ages, and naturally this yielded a fresh batch of unpopular opinions :) 

 

S4 related UOs: 

 

Sam is not at all as frustratingly awful in this season as I had remembered/feared. At times I even (mostly!) get where he's coming from. 

 

I think Death Takes a Holiday is a genuinely great episode. Yes, it's depressing like much of S4, but also really thought provoking, engrossing and well done. 

 

I'm not a Ruby fan regardless, but I like S4's Ruby marginally more than the far more popular S3 Ruby. 

 

I don't love Monster at the End of the Book. I totally get why many people do, but it just doesn't quite do it for me. Maybe I'm weary of the show's overly self-conscious meta stuff by now, or maybe it's that it's one of those episodes where the second half feels so tonally different from the first that it's jarring and gives the episode a disjointed feel. 

 

I really like Yellow Fever a lot. Lord help me ;) 

 

Of all the women Dean has been or might have been paired with, I think Anna is my favorite. If only I could explain why! 

 

I think "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester" and "In the Beginning" are both underrated and are arguably among the series' best. "Lazarus Rising", by contrast, isn't anywhere near my list of personal favorites despite objectively getting why it's a well done episode. 

 

The teenage version of Dean in After School Special makes me cringe. He's like an unintentionally comedic satire of a wannabe 'cool' rebel. Ugh.

 

 Castiel is so very different to me in S4 than in any subsequent season. Does anyone else feel that way?! 

[DittyDotDot]

I think "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester" and "In the Beginning" are both underrated and are arguably among the series' best. "Lazarus Rising", by contrast, isn't anywhere near my list of personal favorites despite objectively getting why it's a well done episode.  

 

I hold a very unpopular opinion that Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester is one of the most underrated episodes of S4. There's lots of good, thought provoking banter in this episode that I just adore. For me, it ties with It's a Terrible Life and Lazarus Rising for best of season. I like In The Beginning too, just not to the same degree.

 

 

Castiel is so very different to me in S4 than in any subsequent season. Does anyone else feel that way?! 

 

Oh yeah! I prefer the edge of Cass in S4. I think it balanced the comic relief nicely and Cass had something relevant to actually do. 

[amensisterfriend]

Ditty, I'm glad you share my fondness for Are You There God...and It's a Terrible Life is arguably my favorite episode of the entire season :) 

[catrox14]

AYTGIMDW would have been in the top 5 of the season for me if it had remained about the Boys vs Meg, Victor and Ronald ghosts and Sams faith vs Deans atheism/agnosticism. Too much time was spent on Bobby vs little ghost girls. I didn't care about that at all. There was no history for that thus no emotional or story connection. It was forced to give Bobby some personal angst. On the plus side, we did get one of the greatest scenes between Cas and Dean and learned about Lucifer so I still put in top 10 of s4

[AwesomO4000]

Ditty, I'm glad you share my fondness for Are You There God...and It's a Terrible Life is arguably my favorite episode of the entire season :) 

 

These episodes would be in my top 5, with "It's a Terrible Life" being my favorite as well. So is "I Know What You Did..." (It's not it's fault that the second part didn't live up). "Monster at the End..." and a toss up between "Monster Movie," "Wishful Thinking," and "In the Beginning" would round out the top 5. Weirdly that means that 3 of my top 5 episodes for season 4 are Sera Gamble episodes: "Are You There,...", "I Know..." and "It's A Terrible Life."

 

 

S4 related UOs: 

 

Sam is not at all as frustratingly awful in this season as I had remembered/feared. At times I even (mostly!) get where he's coming from.

 

I agree, and for me that's what makes the odd moments where it seems Sam is either all over the place or unnecessarily cruel in season 4 so very frustrating for me, because I can understand where he's coming from most of the time, but then they throw in something off the wall - like that stupid "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" line in "Chris Angel..." which "what, where did that come from?" and "since when?" (and only to be reversed in "It's A Terrible Life," where even no-memory Sam is all gung-ho "yay hunting!" , "I feel like I should be doing more than this" , etc.) - or calling Dean "weak" and saying "boo hoo" (which also seemed to come flying out of nowhere). It lead to a very frustrating feeling in the end for me.

 

I think "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester" and "In the Beginning" are both underrated and are arguably among the series' best. "Lazarus Rising", by contrast, isn't anywhere near my list of personal favorites despite objectively getting why it's a well done episode.

 

I share your unpopular opinion concerning "Lazurus Rising." I can see where it is a favorite, but it had too many issues for me in retrospect - mainly I could see places where the narrative seemed to be deliberately being tricky, vague, or almost misleading in order to have a Big Reveal moment later on that either ended up falling flat due to being kept for too long (like Sam's blood drinking) or was never adequately explained in the end (like Dean and when he remembered hell), so that in the end I felt somewhat manipulated for very little payoff.

[catrox14]

 

or was never adequately explained in the end (like Dean and when he remembered hell),

 

I just recently watched that again with my friend that I have converted (muhahahahaah)

 

The scene when Sam gives Dean the amulet back and asks him about Hell is such a great subtle acting beat between Jensen and Jared. Dean has a moment when it looks like he's tempted to tell Sam the truth but doesn't and Sam clearly doesn't believe him but seems tempted momentarily to push the issue but backs off. My head!canon is that if Sam calls Dean on his lie here it makes his own lie abut Ruby more difficult for him to keep.  And Dean doesn't want to say because he just can't handle talking about it.

 

Love that moment so much....which is why I was so frustrated that they just threw that to the wayside for the next 7 episodes until Dean confesses he'd been lying about with that wonderful scene at the end of "Wishful Thinking" for that whole 2 minutes...but that is left to wayside again until Heaven and Hell...with another what 5 minute scene...and then nothing until 4.16.  That is where all my bitterness about Dean's arc in s4 comes from.

[Aeryn13]

 

or calling Dean "weak" and saying "boo hoo" (which also seemed to come flying out of nowhere). It lead to a very frustrating feeling in the end for me.

 

We had Sam calling Dean "pathetic" in an altered state as early as Season 1. And while some bitchfaces might come from a place of playful mockery or joviality, a lot of it over the entire show is more of the "gee, I can`t believe how stupid/uncouth he acts again". So for me, the weak and stupid insults are a staple from Sam. It usually only comes out towards Dean himself when he is under some kind of influence or when he is angry enough or to third parties.

 

Like, in their Scarecrow fight, beginning of the episide, he pretty much was on the same train as in Asylum. Under the Siren spell he called Dean weak and pathetic and then one episode later he pretty much voices much of the same sentiments towards Ruby. Yeah, he said it in nicer ways but that doesn`t mean the underlying thoughts change. Weak is weak is weak, no matter how you try to sell it. 

 

Heck, even the Crossroads Demon he shot, Jared`s previous girlfriend, what did she try to goad Sam with? Dean`s crossroads demon threw all of Dean`s weakness in his face. Sam`s crossroads demon... told Sam how much it must suck to have to pick up after weak, needy Dean. Where did she pick those insults from? Thin air? I think they hit a nerve because of two things: a) that was what Sam felt on some level and b) he didn`t want to acknowledge it because, well, it`s not a nice feeling.  

 

Or, in the Season 10 Finale he spouts stuff like "you will never hear me say you are anything but good". Oh really? You basically called him a selfish, weak coward in the Purge. Selective memory or something?

 

So for me, Season 4 Sam amping up the insults towards weak/pathetic/needy Dean made sense. It build on something pre-established before and since the demon blood was supposed to make him more arrogant, how could that not be the outcome?

 

It all worked logically for me until Season 5 and where it told me that the problem in Season 4 wasn`t Sam but Dean. Not being supportive and lackey-like enough. Because that`s what someone at the height of arrogance really needs, a good sycophantic flunky. Sure, if Dean had been that flunky, that would have greately diminished Ruby`s use of that role but I still don`t thnk that is the answer.  

[AwesomO4000]

My head!canon is that if Sam calls Dean on his lie here it makes his own lie abut Ruby more difficult for him to keep.  And Dean doesn't want to say because he just can't handle talking about it.

 

Ah see, that's interesting, because in my head!canon, I think I have Dean really starting to remember for real in "Yellow Fever." Of course that doesn't make as much sense in terms of the supposed lying, but if Dean did remember right away, then for me the entire first scene of the episode either doesn't ring true or doesn't make sense, since Dean seems to be running around grabbing food and porn and acting like, well Dean, not a Dean who entirely remembers hell.

 

And as you said, there were those two "reveal scenes" but not much else made of it, so all of the pussyfooting around for only a little bit of payoff but a whole lot of angst was, for me, more annoying than anything else... and looking back, it all started here in this episode.

 

 

That is where all my bitterness about Dean's arc in s4 comes from.

 

I agree, and I felt the same about Sam's arc. For this supposedly huge secret that they kept for 15 episodes, and only more than hinted at (with little muffled phone calls or 20 second sneaking out scenes) with one scene in episode 4 and then a bit more in episode 9, they buried the lead in a small scene in the middle of an episode that was all about Dean's hell experiences and what they'd done to him and also ended on this big emotional Dean note - which I don't begrudge Dean of one bit - but why put the big "OMG Sam's drinking demon blood!!1!" moment in that episode that was already chock full of reveals. Way to not make use of the multiple episodes in between, in my opinion.

 

It's also one of the reasons why I didn't get the impression that the Sam blood addiction storyline was really all that front and center in the season either, because if the writers couldn't even bother to give the big reveal a prominent moment in an episode but instead more of an "oh, and this also happened" type moment, then how important is that arc supposed to be from the viewer's perspective? And I can't even include Dean finding out about Sam killing Alastair as part of the "big reveal," because it happened offscreen and then was mentioned as an "oh by the way" in another episode later on down the line.

 

So yeah, I think both arcs got screwed in favor of somewhat manufactured brother angst with secrets and lies and emotional attacks, and as I said, looking back on it, for me it started in "Lazurus Rising."

 

Edited to add:

Heck, even the Crossroads Demon he shot, Jared`s previous girlfriend, what did she try to goad Sam with? Dean`s crossroads demon threw all of Dean`s weakness in his face. Sam`s crossroads demon... told Sam how much it must suck to have to pick up after weak, needy Dean. Where did she pick those insults from? Thin air? I think they hit a nerve because of two things: a) that was what Sam felt on some level and b) he didn`t want to acknowledge it because, well, it`s not a nice feeling.

 

The crossroads demon also said that Sam was just "going through the motions"to save Dean - which was a lie - and that Sam would be "relieved" that Dean was gone which we saw very much was not the case in "Mystery Spot." * Demons pick out things and try to blow them up. I'm not saying that Sam didn't think those things on occasion - and I don't even blame him, considering Dean did get them into that mess in the first place and then pulled the "too bad. I was selfish. Deal with it." card - but that doesn't mean it's what he thinks of Dean all the time - which is what season 4 tried to be pulling. It didn't give any perspective on why Sam would say that - and that is where it failed for me, because there was some reasoning behind why Sam might be feeling that way now, but the narrative didn't want to go there or give Sam any kind of sympathetic light. I say it came "flying out of nowhere," because we'd seen evidence that Sam didn't feel this way - or at least not anymore - without revisiting what Sam's current feelings were and how he got there - because we skipped all of that part with the time jump, and because they didn't bother much to fill in the gaps.

 

It would be like saying that just because the shapeshifter pulled out of Dean's head that he was bitter against Sam because Sam got to go away to college and Dean didn't is how Dean feels all or even most of the time about Sam. Or that Dean never changed his opinion on the "Sam abandoned the family" gripe he had and sometimes popped up when Dean was stressed, but just implied that this is how Dean feels all of the time.

 

* And there was a lot more conversation before Sam killed the crossroads demon. The kill shot came after she wouldn't tell him who held Dean's contract and said there was no way to save Dean.

 

It all worked logically for me until Season 5 and where it told me that the problem in Season 4 wasn`t Sam but Dean. Not being supportive and lackey-like enough. Because that`s what someone at the height of arrogance really needs, a good sycophantic flunky. Sure, if Dean had been that flunky, that would have greately diminished Ruby`s use of that role but I still don`t thnk that is the answer.

 

That's not what I got out of season 5. And I'm so glad I didn't have to see any Sam groveling. In my opinion, Sam changed his behavior throughout the season, and it showed in his actions. I didn't need a huge neon sign in the narrative to point it out to me. And I didn't want Dean to clean up Sam's mess in that case either. I get enough of that from the show already.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

in "Yellow Fever." Of course that doesn't make as much sense in terms of the supposed lying, but if Dean did remember right away, then for me the entire first scene of the episode either doesn't ring true or doesn't make sense, since Dean seems to be running around grabbing food and porn and acting like, well Dean, not a Dean who entirely remembers hell.

 

That's pretty typical Dean. Coping/compartmentalizing via alcohol, food and porn until he can find a way to deal with it. That's why it clicked for me. Plus we had the flashes when he was looking at himself in the mirror. Also, Dean putting the focus on Sam gives him a way to avoid thinking or talking about what happened. Not in a martyr way but because he just can't handle it.  I can buy that more than Dean not remembering anything. I thought it played really well.

[AwesomO4000]

That's pretty typical Dean. Coping/compartmentalizing via alcohol, food and porn until he can find a way to deal with it. That's why it clicked for me. Plus we had the flashes when he was looking at himself in the mirror. Also, Dean putting the focus on Sam gives him a way to avoid thinking or talking about what happened. Not in a martyr way but because he just can't handle it.  I can buy that more than Dean not remembering anything. I thought it played really well.

 

I agree that Dean often does that when there is something that needs to be done, especially something major, or if there are people around definitely, but Dean was by himself and there was nothing pressing and no hurry to be anywhere. I think there would have been plenty of reason for there to have been something a little more emotional, maybe even crying, or an expression of pure relief, hugging the ground, marveling at the sky, something like that. Maybe even an "I can't believe it. I'm out." The impression I got from the scene was that Dean didn't really remember, and the flashes were memories trying to come through, but not entirely making it yet. For me, he just wasn't enough of an emotional mess. He seemed entirely too much like regular Dean for me. But that was the impression I got. If Dean did remember it all from the beginning, then there was a bit too much of that holding back and trying to keep the mystery manipulation for me in "Lazurus Rising," mostly because Dean was alone, so there was no reason for him to be "fine" at that point, and the only reason not to go to that emotional thing that Jensen does so well, in my opinion, was for that "mystery." But I get that miles vary.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Mick Lady]

That's pretty typical Dean. Coping/compartmentalizing via alcohol, food and porn until he can find a way to deal with it. That's why it clicked for me. Plus we had the flashes when he was looking at himself in the mirror. Also, Dean putting the focus on Sam gives him a way to avoid thinking or talking about what happened. Not in a martyr way but because he just can't handle it.  I can buy that more than Dean not remembering anything. I thought it played really well.

 

This, I agree with completely. You just said it better than I ever could.

 

I don't love Monster at the End of the Book. I totally get why many people do, but it just doesn't quite do it for me. Maybe I'm weary of the show's overly self-conscious meta stuff by now, or maybe it's that it's one of those episodes where the second half feels so tonally different from the first that it's jarring and gives the episode a disjointed feel.

 

I really like Yellow Fever a lot. Lord help me ;)

 

 

amensisterfriend, I too adore Yellow fever! But TMATEOTB is one of my favorites. Chuck is just too much fun!

 

Plus, "You should have seen Luke." is hands down, one of the best lines in the whole show!

[Babblesmuch]

*steps out of the Shadows of Lurk*

I come with some things that are bound to be unpopular opinions!

I liked the scene with Dean and Amara.

No, not in the sense of it being appropriate or hot. I liked how uncomfortable it made me. I love that the show made me feel something. I'm still interested in the show and characters, but I'm very seldom moved any more.

Deaths stopped being a big deal for me a while ago. If someone vaguely good dies, we'll see them again in some form, so I can't bring myself to be truly emotionally invested in their potential death. Billie's talk of Sam and Dean being sent to The Empty when they die again didn't have much of an impact on me (beyond wondering if that's going to be their answer to getting rid of the Big Bad). If Sam and Dean die, that's the end of the show, and the guys and tptb plan to run spn for as many more years as they can so...

Fight scenes, while I'm still impressed with the amount of work they take to film, aren't doing anything for me either. There's no more shock for me when a loved one beats ups Dean, I still don't know why the fight between Sam and Dean at the end of 10x23 had to happen, and as much as I wanted Metatron to get smacked in the mouth, the beat down registered as -- unnecessary, maybe? He's human at this point, and in an older body. It doesn't take angel powered blows to take him down. Sam's fight with the demons left me frustrated in the opposite way. There should have been something else, the equivalent of demon damaging brass knuckles or something. When did demons weaken to the point of engaging and losing a fist fight with a human? What happened to their telekinesis and extra strength?

But the scene with Dean and Amara? It had me captivated. It was hitting all of my internal markers of "eww, wrong" but I couldn't look away, almost as if Amara's juju was working on me too. It's been a really long time since the show has shown something that just HIT me, and I appreciate that.

Of course, I'm assuming that it'll cause me less discomfort once Amara has completed her transitions. Partially because, visually, it won't immediately ping wrong, and also because I don't think the show is actually going to go anywhere outside of "it's another apocalypse, humans are going to die, insert quick save in the last couple episodes of the season!" But who knows? She was a creepy thing while in The Nothing Cloud too. At best they'll keep a creep factor until the midseason finale.

*slowly slinks back into the Shadows*

Edited November 15, 2015 by Babblesmuch

[catrox14]

Okay, rant warning.

 

I'm really frustrated with s11 to this point.  Like, we're getting a lot of WTF and WHOA reveals but they feel more like the worst kind of Moffat's SuperWhoLock wherein Moffat thinks he's so fucking clever with pretzel logic and "gotcha" moments. I'm not here for that with Supernatural. 

 

And no I'm not an unintelligent viewer who just doesn't get it.  I make up a fuckton of my own head!canon to make things work. I've created my own massive specs that could end up being partly or wholly accurate or inaccurate. I can make connections even if I don't LIKE those connections.

 

But this meted out method of storytelling does not work for me with Supernatural UNLESS it is a wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing or something else is nothing like what we've been lead to believe. Aside from my pod!Dean musings (which I still stand by) this just is not going to work for me.

 

I find nothing satisfying for Dean's SL to this point.

 

-- Sure he's back to the stereotypical quippy Dean, looks good and has had a bad ass fight and with badass driving and he's tied to the Big Bad(?) Amara in some way but really he's kind of back to really being Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument, IMO.

 

-- "No, Dean. Bad Dean. No we do not kill, Dean. Do you need a timeout, Dean?" kind of bullshit storytelling. message from Sam to the audience , whom btw has killed monsters and humans (the nurse). I understand it's supposed to be that Sam is speaking for both of them, but you know frankly I'd rather the show not have Sam speak for Dean or be Dean's conscious because it's not coming across as anything but Judgy Sam. 

 

--Sam is a pacifist of some kind now?  His fight with the demons was fucking stupid. It's only been a few months in the show since Dean was a fucking DEMON and Sam said, I HATE demons. And was faced with having to maybe kill his brother but he never wavered from "I HATE DEMONS" . He loathes Crowley and wants Crowley dead and was willing to close the gates of Hell to keep demons off earth...until he and Dean didn't want Sam to die.  WTF is up with Sam not just ganking the meatsuits that will happily kill him given the chance.  Yes I understand it's supposed to be the "won't somebody think of the meatsuit!" but I dunno it doesn't make sense when they are facing Crowley's demonions in his lair. Just kill them all, dammit.

 

-- They have Sam refer to Dean's demonity for literally NO reason as Dean's Summer of Love with Crowley.  Where the fuck does that come from and why is Dean not side eyeing him hard or telling him to fuck off with that?  Seriously, they make Dean being a demon a JOKE and snarky barb from Sam because why?? In fact, Dean seemed confused as to why Sam even said that to him.

 

-- Dean has done nothing but protect Amara and try to protect Cas. Which is admirable but doesn't that make him basically Amara's Blunt Little Instrument only with being slightly more open about worrying about Cas? But then even being her Blunt Little Instrument might not even be HIS choice.  Oh wait, he might end up being her consort too....great.

 

-- Crowley is doing what exactly, thinking he can control a teenage girl HHAHAHAH ...? I don't fucking care that Crowley is bored and lonely now.

 

-- Cas has PTSD which is a worthwhile thing to examine but it just reminds me that the show never showed Dean's trauma with being out of Hell but I guess that's because Dean is a functional alcoholic (acknowledged by himself to be such) and has been self medicating with alcohol, food and sex. Cas is staying in the bunker but still not spending any time in the same room with the boys or Dean where they aren't fighting. Swell. \

 

Blergh, there better be some kind of altered states as I've been speculating, because playing this straight like it is? No thank you.

[mertensia]

My unpopular opinion is that I think this is one of the best seasons (so far) in years.

[Diane]

My unpopular opinion is that I think this is one of the best seasons (so far) in years.

Not that unpopular, that is what I am reading from fans and critics.  I have to agree, it feels more old school to me, I am loving it.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I am loving it too! Just keep sex out of the Amara/Dean connection and I will be thrilled

[mertensia]

My further unpopular opinion is a Dean/Amara sex plotline does not bother me.

[Goldmoon]

Yes, this is a good place to state the UO that if Dean Does Amara, him seeing her as an infant, child and teen does not make that skeevy.  He wouldn't touch a child, we all know that.

[rue721]

I have to admit that if the primordial Darkness wanted to bang me, I'd probably go for it. Because come on. What would sex with that even be like?

And imagine if the sex wasn't even any good? How hilarious would that be?! "I fucked the primordial Darkness, the thing that existed before time began, and it was....eh. I've had better, to be honest." LOL

[Mulva]

Count me in with the people who love season 11. It's amazing how much better the show is when you cut out the boring Angel politics and give Sam something to do.

[amensisterfriend]

UO: After my first one or two viewings I always thought of Heart as among the only skip-worthy episodes of S2, but for some reason I loved it when I finally rewatched it. And the UO within the UO is that I actually really liked Madison---her mannerisms, her way of delivering lines, her look (yes, I'm shallow!) and what admittedly little we saw of her personality. She's pretty much the only SPN woman who I could totally see Sam with and think he had a lot of chemistry with....so, naturally, she didn't survive the episode ;) It also could have been interesting to see him have an ongoing connection with someone who worked in a law office, a vague reminder of the type of work Sam might have gone on to do if he'd gone on with a "normal" life. 

[Demented Daisy]

While over in the Spoilers w/Spec thread, I said for the umpteenth time, "Whatever."

 

I'm sad that that's how I feel about this season in general.  Whatever.  I'm trying to come up with analysis and speculation; I'm reading articles and listening to interviews more than I probably ever have before, but I still have nothing to say.  I'm not sure why that is.

 

Fatigue?  Possible.  This is S11, after all.  The stories are getting repetitive.  I can't get too worked up over humanity getting wiped out... again.  

 

The Darkness?  Definitely possible.  I'd like to say that the idea is intriguing, but it was introduced in such a rush, with no hint that such a thing even existed.  I know I spent a good part of the summer mocking the name.  Then, when I found out it would be personified by a female, I'm not sure I've ever rolled my eyes so hard.

 

The writing isn't helping.  Even episodes that are not strictly myth-related have been a disappointment.  Baby was cute, but not amazing.  Just My Imagination was not nearly as funny as I expected to be.  I think someone on staff needs to check their funny bones, because the humor in the season isn't landing for me.  Even Dean's normally charming, awkward jokes don't work for me this year.

 

Now, could all of this be a clue?  Could TPTB be trying to let us know that something is off?  Of course, anything is possible.  But that's a long con.  I'm not sure they're capable of the subtlety required to draw that story out.

 

Plus, I have a natural aversion to such stories.  I don't like having the rug pulled out from under me.  I sincerely hope that, in the mid-season finale, TPTB don't say, "It was all a dream/hallucination/alternate reality!"

[neverforgottenadam]

I want charlie and everyone else whose tragically died to cameo in one episode in the future.

[Mulva]

Now, could all of this be a clue? Could TPTB be trying to let us know that something is off? Of course, anything is possible. But that's a long con. I'm not sure they're capable of the subtlety required to draw that story out.

Don't hold your breath. I spent most of S8 waiting for the big reveal that Amelia was a hallucination/witch/demon/angel/whatever but nope, that whole situation was exactly what it was presented to be.

[Hana Chan]

I'm not a religious person, but I really, really hate the way the show has abused Sam's faith over the years. First with having him infected with demon blood as an infant (compounded by the fact that he was sold out by his mother before he was even conceived). Then when angels finally show up and they all collectively shit on him over something that he'd had no control over (even Dean's pet angel calling Sam an abomination). Then finding out that he's Lucifer's vessel and having pretty much all of heaven working in a collective effort to shove him into Lucifer's less than loving arms. Even with all this, Sam managed to keep his faith.

 

Now all season we see him praying and sincerely believing that God is giving him clues about how to handle Amara and it's not only by sending Sam to face the being that brutalized him for over a century, but that the visions might not have come from God at all. Which is about as nasty a way to trash a character that the show has ever done.