Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

rue721 · June 4, 2015

Something about repetition, though:

So, I've been watching Smallville reruns a lot. Something that I think is interesting about that show is that the characters' points-of-view are really limited, so they never have all the crucial information they need about each other (or even about themselves), and they're always trying to control the perceptions and information that other people have, too. So the same information or scenario will keep coming up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, but virtually every time it comes up, it's from a new angle or with new information included, that can *completely* change how its perceived. Like for example, the death of Lex's brother Julian. It comes up in season after season after season, and we actually see Julian or a Julian clone murdered on camera three different times. And he's talked about a bunch of other times, Lex discusses his death with different people and gives a different story of what happened each time, etc. I mean, there's a lot of repetition, but at the same time, imo it doesn't come off as repetitive per se, because the truth of it is always changing and always just beyond our grasp to understand.

I think that SPN could and has done a similar thing *sometimes.* I think that Sam leaving for college is the SPN version of Julian's death. I feel like Sam leaving for Stanford has been brought up and talked about and looked at from a bunch of different angles over the past decade, but that doesn't feel repetitive to me -- in fact, I would like to know more about it!

So anyway, I don't think that repetition is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, with a show that's so old, I think that repetition can be really interesting, because with time for so many repetitions of the same dynamics/scenarios/etc, there's time to add a lot of complexity/depth.

What SPN does that I think sometimes turns "repetition" into "repetitiveness," though, is that some of the veins it goes back to mine again and again just don't have enough emotional oomph or just aren't grounded enough in the real world to be worth going back to so often. There just isn't a lot of complexity to add. For example, I really could do without another fistfight between the Winchesters. I really could do without another "Would you or would you not let the world burn to save my life?!" ~confrontation~ between them. That wasn't a particularly interesting or meaningful question even the first time around imo, and I really don't need it asked and answered (in the same way, no less) over and over again, over the course of years.

But there's no accounting for taste. There are probably a significant number of fans who love both those things, and like that they're getting what they want again and again and again.

amensisterfriend · June 19, 2015

Random episode-related UO: I think Dream A Little Dream is incredibly underrated! I actually find it incredibly interesting in a trippy kind of way, and I think it's easily among the most visually stunning episodes of the series.

Also---and you guys ca take comfort in knowing I kind of hate myself for this one---while I don't ship anyone on SPN, there's some warped part of me that thinks Bela and Sam would have been a really fun pairing for at least a few episodes. At that point in the series, Sam was still somewhat earnest and kind of emo and touchy and a little endearingly neurotic and intent on doing the right thing (and I'm definitely not trying to start an ethical debate here---I just mean 'the right thing' as Sam defines it!) and Bela, despite flashes of humanity, was usually so cheerfully remorseless, unapologetically self-centered, jaded and...Bela.

DittyDotDot · June 19, 2015

Random episode-related UO: I think Dream A Little Dream is incredibly underrated! I actually find it incredibly interesting in a trippy kind of way, and I think it's easily among the most visually stunning episodes of the series.

I adore Dream a Little Dream of Me. ADORE IT!! On my top ten list of episodes. I love it when the show gets all trippy and a lot of S3 is just that, IMO. I'm pretty sure the art department was doing shrooms that year. ;)

amensisterfriend · June 19, 2015

I adore Dream a Little Dream of Me. ADORE IT!! On my top ten list of episodes. I love it when the show gets all trippy and a lot of S3 is just that, IMO. I'm pretty sure the art department was doing shrooms that year

Then I kind of wish they had kept on doing them! I'm glad I'm not alone on this one---Dream A Little Dream is such a great blend of humor and drama, there are actually some fascinating and thought-provoking ideas presented re. the nature and meaning of dreams, our subconscious thoughts and desires, whether we let our loved ones in on what really lurks deep inside us, etc. As a lifelong insomniac, I find anything about dreams/sleep more interesting than the normal person! And both boys have moments where they're just so sublimely likable here. I think at the time I was getting sick of Sam fretting about how to save Dean and the way the show started pounding us over our collective heads with the 'poor Dean lacks the self-esteem to want to save himself! He doesn't know just how amazing he is!' stuff, but now I just find this one so incredibly rewatchable. We can officially be the only two fans on the planet to rank this among our top 10 episodes :)

Then again, I hold the UO of finding S3 even more rewatchable than the far more popular S2 overall, though I'm at a loss to explain why :) And somehow I love S3 even more now than I used to---its high points seem even better and its flaws seem really negligible compared to the majority of what we've gotten since!

Edited June 19, 2015 by amensisterfriend

DittyDotDot · June 20, 2015

Then again, I hold the UO of finding S3 even more rewatchable than the far more popular S2 overall, though I'm at a loss to explain why :) And somehow I love S3 even more now than I used to---its high points seem even better and its flaws seem really negligible compared to the majority of what we've gotten since!

BLASHPHEMY!!! S2 will never be topped! Hee!

Nah, I still hold S2 pretty dear, but I totally get what you mean about S3 becoming more likeable over the years, though. That kinda happened to me too. ;)

AwesomO4000 · July 8, 2015

Brought over from the "Spoilers With Speculation" thread (doesn't contain spoilers):

For me, demon!Dean and the MoC has been the only real mytharc for Dean after he was not really the True Michael Vessel. I don't think being upset about Bobby and Cas' demise in s7 is a mytharc but that's just my opinion. I do hope they continue on with the MoC or it's aftermath but I don't think they will. I think they will have something with Sam.

I agree that Dean's emotional journey in season 7 was not mytharc. For me that was an emotional arc - as was Sam's hallucinations. I was referring to Dean's involvement with Dick Roman. Bobby's death served as a catalyst for that, but then Dean met with Dick Roman and personally swore that he would kill him. He continued involvement with Frank as part of that quest. He had an ongoing professional relationship with Frank that Sam did not have... they spoke on the phone, they did a stakeout together, and if I'm remembering correctly there might have been a visit or two where Sam wasn't involved either.

It made an impression on me, because I don't remember Dean ever being shown researching a case anywhere near as fanatically as that one. There had been "tell" and time jump explanation research mentions, but this was different. The narrative went out of the way to show that Dean was over-the-top involved in this revenge quest almost to season 4 Sam "kill Lilith" levels, complete with shoe on the other foot parallels where Sam was trying to get Dean to let up on going after Dick on multiple occasions throughout the second half of the season. They even had a season 1 "Scarecrow" parallel with Sam on the "we have to save people" side and Dean on the "you go save people, I'm going on my revenge quest" side (They even had a parallel of the ending of "Scarecrow" where Dean had to stop his quest to save Sam.) Then Dean killed Dick Roman, just as he said he would, almost solo (where Sam was not involved), and even though there wasn't a unique supernatural element in his killing of Dick, there was a supernatural consequence.

So for me that was very much a small mytharc for Dean (a few episodes longer than Sam's not closing of the hellgate) with all of the narrative signs pointing to it as such, and it had a very distinct beginning, middle, and positive end, the result of which continued over into a small somewhat supernatural arc with purgatory.

I think Soulless Sam was at least part of the Cas/Crowley arc and it featured heavily in the first half of the Season. Compare that with the barely three episodes of Demon!Dean.

I really don't see the connection except that it was Castiel who messed up and caused Sam to be soulless, but the reason for that was more because of Dean, because Cas brought Sam back for Dean. Sam being soulless was a device in Crowley's manipulation, but that's about it, and Dean was actually being manipulated just as much as Sam was - likely more. Dean was the one who figured out Samuel wasn't on the up and up, because as Dean pointed out soulless Sam's instincts in that regard completely sucked, and Sam couldn't figure out Samuel was using him all that time even though he was right in the middle of it.The conclusion of the soulless arc was via Dean - not Sam - so Dean played a small role in the arc as well with Dean being the savior of Samsel in distress Sam. Then the second half of the season featured Dean doing some heavy-lifting killing.

Then came the Lucifer hellucinations which were at least a supernatural condition. Then came the trials mytharc.

If Sam's hellucintaions count as an arc - which again was concluded by Dean (and Cas) saving Sam - then in my opinion, so does Dean's arc in Purgatory... where Dean survived, fought, and had a big part in saving himself in a supernatural realm, making that arc Dean's alone - with his own supporting characters - and having nothing to do with Sam (and which was in fact used to make Sam's character look completely awful and wimpy instead). And there were definite supernatural elements to that arc. So another arc for Dean there, in my opinion, where he killed multiple monsters and was the epitome of an action superhero. Meanwhile Sam "hit a dog."

Dean, after they made a joke out of his arc in Seasons 4 and 5, didn`t have any mytharc at all for my money (no, not remotely in Season 7 either) during the years 6 to 9 and a half. The first one he got was the Mark and in the end, that went equally as nowhere as closing the gates of hell.

At least Dean didn't do something stupid and start an apocalypse. Again.

So basically, having nothing for 3 and a half years, followed up with having something to do for 1 and a half years but with no meaningful resolution, I don`t think it necessitates he should once again get nothing because he "had his turn" or something. I`ve been waiting for a real turn, with beginning, middle and satisfying end now for ten years and counting.

I disagree that Dean has had nothing for 3 and a half years since there was Dick Roman (meaningful resolution - even if it didn't require a supernaturally powered Dean, it resulted in a supernatural result with Dean in Purgatory) and then Purgatory where Dean heroically fought all sorts of supernatural monsters and heroically (and successfully) fought to save Castiel.

Sam is now going on another 2 years without a mytharc - and that's generous since I'm counting the awful trials arc in between - and if I'm remembering correctly - 5 seasons without a recurring character / mytharc kill - and that's counting Lucifer as a "kill" even though technically Sam didn't kill Lucifer.

As for a good beginning, middle, and end arc for Dean, it hasn't been 10 years in my opinion. There was the Azazel arc which in my opinion was concluded by Dean and was just as much about Dean as Sam, in my opinion. This was the demon who killed his mother and pretty much changed his entire life and was part of the driving factor behind Dean's reason for being: "saving people, hunting things," so that they wouldn't have to live the same life that Dean did. The same demon who was the cause of John going to hell and all of Dean's turmoil concerning that. There was a beginning: Mary burning on the ceiling. A middle: Dean hunting and his turmoil over John going to hell and everything Azazel did to his family. And an end: John and Dean getting their revenge, so that John could finally rest in peace (Sam was conspicuously absent) and "That's for our mom." Sounds like a satisfying "end" to me.

And I've already analyzed the season 7 arc which also had a satisfying beginning, middle, and end. The purgatory arc was less satisfying, but mostly because of the weird choice to have Castiel choose to stay and Dean remember it incorrectly, because that should have been an epic story arc, since Dean did everything he set out to do in that one, and he did so heroically.

I personally think both Sam and Dean should have a good mytharc. And I would like to see Sam actually, you know, kill something noteworthy, please? For a supposed hunter, it's been a long time since he actually killed something of note.

7kstar · July 8, 2015

Awesom04000

I personally think both Sam and Dean should have a good mytharc. And I would like to see Sam actually, you know, kill something noteworthy, please? For a supposed hunter, it's been a long time since he actually killed something of note.

When I started watching this show, I didn't feel Sam had way more than Dean. It was Luke and Han Solo out to save the world feel.

But now I don't really care to see Sam be the damsel in distress to be saved by Dean or even Dean saving Sam.

I want two brothers working together to kill the big bad. If they must split the two make it count and mean something. If they must rinse and repeat, at least make it feel new and exciting.

I wish I could be excited about this season...but right now I think having low expectations will help me like it more. So right now I'm just looking forward to some of the one shots that don't connect to anything being the ones to look forward too.

Edited July 8, 2015 by 7kstar

Aeryn13 · July 8, 2015

And I've already analyzed the season 7 arc which also had a satisfying beginning, middle, and end.

For me, it never was and never will be a mytharc of Dean`s so it doesn`t even enter the equation in my mind. Let alone that I found nothing about it satisfactory. I was happy Dean was sent to Purgatory in the end but nothing came of that. So, just like the Michael thing, it was ultimately pointless in the end.

Dean getting to kill Azazel was the one thing in the show getting closest to what I wanted for the character. But they made it so it is miniscule compared to Sam`s Season 5 ending which, well, belittles the moment. As I think they have done with most of Dean`s "big" kills, belittled or ignored them in the end.

I had hopes for the MOC arc but as it stands now and if this is indeed the end of it and Dean moves back into arc obscurity, it had no point and no satisfying conclusion.

I get that it is pretty impossible to make a viewer enjoy every arc a character might have but even the dumbest shows usually manage at least once for me. If I thought Dean had had something equal to what Sam got in Suck Song at least once, I wouldn`t mind so much all the dropped and pointless and non-existant stuff that has come in the last few years. Well, okay, I still would have probably hated the second half of Season 8 because that was just like humiliation porn. But overall, with one crucial win, it`s easier to shrug of all the losses afterwards. But not having that, I find I resent more and more every failed story.

AwesomO4000 · July 8, 2015

But overall, with one crucial win, it`s easier to shrug of all the losses afterwards.

I would have gladly traded Sam's "one crucial win" if I didn't have to have the first half of season 8. In my opinion, that was humiliation porn. Let's take everything that had made up Sam's growth as a character to that point and throw it out the window. Sam looked tirelessly for Dean in "Time After Time..."... nope Dean disappears and we'll have Sam shrug his shoulders and wander off. Sam decides hunting is what he wants to do from at least season 5 on (probably more like the end of season 2 on)? Nope Sam walks away, ignores his phones and wipes his hands of the entire thing to "hang out" and be a handyman for a year... which when did Sam ever fix anything again? (answer: he didn't). Sam leaves Kevin to likely torture and death from Crowley and leaves Crowley with a potentially dangerous tablet without a second thought? Sure, why not? That can't possibly look bad, right? Bullcrap in my opinion. They had to know it would look bad, since they purposely made fun of it starting from the first episode of the season.

And if that wasn't humiliating for the character enough, they throw him in a love triangle that was beyond bad and cliched and make him crappy, jealous, whatever that was supposed to be towards Benny and Dean and a crappy hunter who has to be saved by Dean and everyone under the sun to boot. That was humiliating. Dean caring for and supporting his brother and trying to help Castiel in the second half of the season after getting to be a complete badass hero in the first half of the season sounds completely envy-worthy compared to that in my opinion. First he gets to be a badass, then he gets to be the most supportive brother ever. I personally don't see what was so bad about the second half of season 8 for Dean. It's not like Sam actually did anything heroic there either. He didn't single-handedly complete all of the trials since he had help and he didn't even close the gates to hell, so what did he really do anyway? Certainly nothing to fix his destroyed reputation from the first half of the season, that's for sure. Then they made it just as bad in season 9. Sam generally forgives people who do crappy things to him like he's done for the past who knows how many seasons? Nope, this time he's going to hold a grudge forever and be a complete hypocrite about it. In my opinion, if they had Dean do the kinds of things Sam did in season 8 and season 9, then I'd agree there was humiliation for Dean, but in a show that seems to value family bonds and loyalty, I honestly think that Dean's second half of season 8 arc is what the writers considered a good arc. Sam's arc was the crappy one, and the writers supported that by giving Sam no out at all for his behavior even though it would have been easy to do, but then Dean wouldn't seem as self-sacrificing and loyal which to the writers seems to be the most prized characteristic, in my opinion.

For me, it never was and never will be a mytharc of Dean`s so it doesn`t even enter the equation in my mind. Let alone that I found nothing about it satisfactory.

For me saving the world is saving the world. When Dean gets tagged for starting an apocalypse or two like Sam, then he might need a bigger win, but he's had so many small and medium-sized ones, sometimes single-handedly, that I've never felt that Dean's just along for the ride. He's a hero in his own right, and he doesn't need the glory or attention to get it done or feel like he's making a difference. Humility is another heroic, envy-worthy character trait for Dean.

Dean getting to kill Azazel was the one thing in the show getting closest to what I wanted for the character. But they made it so it is miniscule compared to Sam`s Season 5 ending which, well, belittles the moment. As I think they have done with most of Dean`s "big" kills, belittled or ignored them in the end.

I've never felt that way, myself. The ending of season 2 seemed epic enough to me with all of the demons escaping and a big fight and dramatic, slow-motion, glowing bullet flying through the air. Sam fell into a badly CGI'd hole after having an argument with Michael. They seemed about the same in scale to me, but I could be wrong. Both were also a bit about the bait and switch too... With all of the Sam build-up with Azazel, he played even less of a role in the wrap up than Dean did (in my opinion) in season 5's finale. So they were also about equivalent there for me as well... and considering Sam needed a win finally after screwing up so badly, I was fine with it. Dean would get his chance to save the world again and get the hero's send off in season 7. I'm good.

Aeryn13 · July 9, 2015

I personally don't see what was so bad about the second half of season 8 for Dean.

For me, from they went out of their way to show how unimportant he was. He gets a speech that is supposedly about how awesome he is after the trials go to Sam and all that speech does is add insult to injury. A great hunter? He couldn`t handle the hellhound, Sam killed it. A genius at lore? Watch the next few episodes where Dean knows nothing about the supernatural whatsoever. Not a grunt? Ha, as the trials go on, he wishes he was a grunt because that is still a step up from cook and nurse.

Trial 2? He wants to come along but is again so superflouus, he gets sent back to the kitchen to make sandwiches for Kevin while Sam does cartwheels through Purgatory and Hell. Dean helped? Well, I don`t think Carver sees it that way because IMO the voice of cranky head!Bobby with the "you loser did nothing, hero!Sam did everything" was to be taken as gospel truth. Because then Death came (and was supposed to be real) and pimped him to the high heavens.

Trial 3? Dean`s not mattering one iota to the story is pushed to comical heights. When Sam does his trial, Dean is shipped off to waiting with Cas. But heck, he is so freaking unimportant there, too, that right before Cas `story picks up, he exits that as well. It was such an obvious chore to find something to do for the character in this episode. Oh, he gets the unheroic "no stop, I`m too pathetic to let you go" speech. Well, thanks for nothing.

Whereas I think Sam was pimped right to the next universe during the trials.I don`t think he was hard done by the writing there. And they had retconned the first half of Season 8 so thouroughly by then with Dean apparently being so mean and not understanding and ruining Sam`s normal life with voice mails of evil and stuff. And the stopping of the trials is usually solely blamed on Dean being pathetic and weak.

that I've never felt that Dean's just along for the ride. He's a hero in his own right, and he doesn't need the glory or attention to get it done or feel like he's making a difference.

The character doesn`t feel he needs that, I agree. I, as a viewer, feel very different. It would be something else if no character got this in the show but I think in general Sam has gotten an embarassment of riches that way so that makes me primed to forever ask when it is Dean`s turn. I guess it`s a rhetorical question, though, because after ten years, the obvious answer seems never.

Sometimes, in a weird way, I resent that Jensen got cast in this because while I`m terrible at dropping shows in general, normally even I wouldn`t wait 10 years for my favourite character to get one good story in the entire run of a show . Though, to be fair, that has never happened before. I never had to wait this long, even when the characters weren`t the protagonist or intended hero or even the Mary Sue of a show. And being cruelly teased that he might a few times and then that turning out to be a red herring each time would not make me wanna hang on either. But the guy manages to create just enough that I`m still somewhat invested.

catrox14 · July 9, 2015

LOL I understand how you feel Aeryn. Maybe it's a blessing that I didn't actually spend 10 years watching the show or I might be as annoyed (even though I'm very close that). I've only been watching realtime for two seasons and but through Netflix and rewatching and yakking about it with y'all and elsewhere, it feels like I've been watching for 10 years. I have never been so damn invested in a show. I mean I thought I was obsessed with BSG and Angel and LOST and more recently Arrow..but no...this one has ruined me.

That said, I know I say "Oh Jensen deserves a more visible role in a big time movie playing an iconic character " but really I think Dean Winchester is one hell of an iconic character. I'm starting to hope for a brilliant Supernatural movie that puts his face on the big screen and maybe the Winchester brothers become more iconic heroes.

I know I bitch about the writing but as long as Dean Winchester "lives" I'll be sitting here with all you fine people. I can't quit that boy.

Edited July 9, 2015 by catrox14

7kstar · July 9, 2015

Jensen was the reason I watched and then got hooked. It hasn't been 10 either for me, just 7. Everyone has the things they wish the show would do, but I would settle for just the two working together and moving on to a new storyline that didn't mention blame and guilt.

There are too many writing issues and normally I wouldn't have stayed invested but seeing the acting improving and watching some stuff on youtube has made me stick. It is a rich story...I wish the writers would mine it better.

I will say at least every season has a few eps I really like. Some more than others. The only season I don't own and doubt I will is Season 8. So I'm hoping this season will have more I like than hate.

I think Carver has improved Sam last season if you don't count the Black cloud from the end of season 10. It's been a long time since I even liked Sam again.

That's another thing I'm bitter about, the need to make you hate one or both of the main characters. I blame the current ideas of writing for TV Shows on that. Now it seems writers think if you kill someone off or just do drama for drama sake that is good storytelling. I really think it is the writing that is holding this show back. The acting is there.

FlickChick · July 9, 2015

I've been watching since day one. I agree with you catrox, that Jensen has developed the character of Dean Winchester into one of the finest on TV in any series as well as equal to many on the big screen. That is something that not all actors can do and it is a testament to his exceptional natural talent. It will be a great loss when the show ends for the loss of Dean Winchester. However, that said, with the poor writing these last several seasons, Jensen isn't getting a chance to sink his teeth into much with the exception of MoC/demon Dean. So tired of the rinse and repeat of storylines, emotions, fights, drama, etc. And I personally blame Singer more than Carter for that since he's the one who's been here since day one.

I also agree with you 7kstar, that each season brings at least a few episodes that are good. The problems seem to lie in the overall storytelling, the arcs, and as mentioned before, the rinse and repeat. And let's not forget the obnoxious, frat-boy so-called humor instead of the more subtle humor within an episode that we used to get.

But I can't quit the show either because of Jensen, but also I do want to see how it ends - Butch & Sundance or Hollywood Happy.

AwesomO4000 · July 9, 2015

Whereas I think Sam was pimped right to the next universe during the trials.I don`t think he was hard done by the writing there. And they had retconned the first half of Season 8 so thouroughly by then with Dean apparently being so mean and not understanding and ruining Sam`s normal life with voice mails of evil and stuff. And the stopping of the trials is usually solely blamed on Dean being pathetic and weak.

I guess it's a matter of perspective, because I didn't see all that much "Sam pimping" during the trials. For one, Carver made sure that Sam needed help at every turn. "Head Bobby" - who was actually a part of Sam's brain trying to talk him into dying, so likely not to be taken as the "good" side and so was likely more of that "Sam is arrogant" stuff they like to throw in there - was bracketed with real Bobby who pointed out how crappy it was that Sam didn't look for Dean. And since that was well into the second half of the season, I didn't see a total retconning of the first half of season 8 either. Season 10, and they are still mentioning "Sam hit a dog" as a snicker towards his character. I'm trying to remember if the stopping of the trails has been mentioned as Dean's fault (outside of Sam's ranting - which was later retconned as Sam being a hypocrite anyway) since in the show. I'm guessing not.

Dean himself was talking about how Sam needed a babysitter, and surprise, surprise, Sam didn't finish the trials. However because it was Dean's idea, nothing bad really happened because of it. I'm guessing if Sam had finished the trials, something completely awful would have happened - like this season where Sam ended up getting the Darkness called in - so it was likely lucky Dean stopped them. And Dean wasn't anywhere near as useless as Sam was when Dean was killing Abaddon or the season 9 finale, where Sam spent much of the action knocked out when he wasn't failing to save Dean.

As for ruining Sam's chance for a normal life, that too was retconned - or in my opinion brought back to normal - since this season it was made clear that hunting is what Sam wanted to do anyway... so Dean was right on that too, and Sam was just being stupid, an ass, etc. for not realizing it sooner. Again, it's a matter of how you look at it.

The character doesn`t feel he needs that, I agree. I, as a viewer, feel very different. It would be something else if no character got this in the show but I think in general Sam has gotten an embarassment of riches that way so that makes me primed to forever ask when it is Dean`s turn. I guess it`s a rhetorical question, though, because after ten years, the obvious answer seems never.

I think this is also a matter of perspective, because for every vague platitude for Sam - except maybe Bobby, but Bobby is a mixed bag when it comes to Sam, because he also says some fairly insulting things about Sam as well - there is the Garth (arguably also a writer mouthpiece) "he's insecure, but with good reason" insult or a hunter still insulting Sam for starting the apocalypse 5 seasons after it happened. Not to mention, I don't think it's coincidence that Sam is "Moose" in the pair as I don't think it just refers to his height. Crowley - another writer mouthpiece - has insulted Sam's intelligence on numerous occasions.

And for me, one of the most telling things when it comes to praising a character is to make that character correct and/or have a good result from his actions most of the time, and in that department Dean has it in spades. Even in situations where it could be argued that Dean might've made the wrong choice - such as the Gadreel situation - Dean's actions turned out to be the right thing to do and were important to saving the day. It's why I knew right from the beginning that Benny would be good (I think I even called that he'd end up saving Sam), because that's the way the show rolls when it comes to Dean. Trusting a demon like Meg to take care of Castiel... no problem, sine it was Dean's idea, she was the perfect guardian for him. Declaring that Naomi should be trusted over Gadreel even though she'd been a lying liar who lied and schemed every time before? Yup, Naomi was the right choice. It's been a long time since Dean has been shown to make a major wrong choice unless you count taking on the mark, but the blame for the mess with that was conveniently shifted over to a stupid decision by Sam * anyway, so...

* Which I also called a mile away, because if Sam is going to make a decision, the writers (the current ones especially) generally make sure that it is the complete wrong one. I'm trying to remember the last major decision Sam has made that's been the right one, but I'm coming up blank.

So while I can see some of your perspective, for me, Dean's second half of season 8 just doesn't seem so bad when compared to Sam's first half of season 8 **, the second half of season 9 (which succeeded in ruining the promising first half) and Sam's end of season 10 (ditto the season 9 result).

** no amount of half-hearted retconning could take away the bad taste that Sam abandoning Kevin and thumbing his nose at the Levithan problem and the potential Crowley threat left or the attitude they had him show towards Dean and Benny. It was just character assassination all around, and they didn't even seen to care to fix it even though it would've been easy and there was plenty of opportunity.

Bottom line: I think both brothers have been built up or thrown under the bus to serve the plot purposes. The main difference seems to be in the perspective or point of view the writers choose to show at any given time.

Edited July 9, 2015 by AwesomO4000

Omegamom · July 9, 2015

I dunno. I guess I'm fairly rare in that I think Sam's automatic distrust of Benny was pretty in character. Here's Dean, who has always had a tough time thinking of monsters as *people*, so much so that he killed Sam's friend Amy*, bonding big time with a vampire. A big, burly, male vampire. (Whatshername, the vamp who kept her nest from killing people--female. Gordon, Hunter-turned-vamp, who hunted Sam like a dog? Male. Sinister Alpha vamp? Male. Male vampires and Sam have a bad track record.)

Sam can't possibly imagine what that year in Purgatory was like for Dean--he only has the evidence of Dean's hair trigger reactions in the first few weeks they were back together, and one or two very truncated descriptions. And Dean didn't tell him about Benny at all, not a word. And suddenly Sam's presented with new BFF Benny, after Dean has vanished without a word and gone off on a hunt without explanation?

Whoa. I'd be pretty freaked out, too, frankly. Wondering just where this guy came from, how he's persuaded my black-and-white, absolutist big brother to not kill him.

And there were plenty of scenes showing that Benny was constantly tempted to vamp people; going on bottled blood just can't be the same.

Hitting-a-dog Sam needs much more explaining to me--at least a few scenes of Sam trying to locate Dean and Kevin--than distrusts-Benny-Sam.

*"Amy Pond, eh? Cute."--letting us know that Sam watches Dr. Who, which is just too cool.

DittyDotDot · July 9, 2015

Oh yeah, I didn't have a problem understanding Sam's distrust of Benny--I distrusted him myself--and I can understand why Sam would just drop out of the life after all they've been through over the years; just didn't get him not even trying to locate Dean or Kevin. I finally decided Sam did do some looking while fixing Baby, went a little crazy in the process and hitting the dog was a wake up call to him that he was being reckless somewhat like he had been back in S4. And we all know where that road led. So, he packed it in before something worse happened.

Now, if I could only make some sort of sense of the reaper nonsense that started in S8 and S8 wouldn't seem all that confusing to me. ;)

Edited July 9, 2015 by DittyDotDot

Aeryn13 · July 9, 2015

the second half of season 9 (which succeeded in ruining the promising first half)

I couldn`t stand the first half because even though it was only being possessed by one, we got one more angel!Sam and a little Sam-mytharc (yes, possessions, I do count, considering they are genre-themed) and it was another big barrel of salt in the wound of Dean`s completely dropped angel-connection. You are no longer a part of this story, indeed.

When he took on the Mark, I knew from the first second that it would be a bad idea and lead to bad things but it was not cooking and drawing baths and fretting about another supernatural condition of Sam`s so it was automatically superior to anything in Seasons 6 to 9.5

The mid-Season Finale of Season 9 was like the Dean shell game of "we have to put him onscreen but he really has no business in the mytharc scenes" just like Season 8 for me. With the MOC, at least that stopped. Now, even as badly written as they often were, Dean had a reason and a place for being in those episodes. His character didn`t just appear to be randomely inserted into the episodes without rhyme or reason.

As for ruining Sam's chance for a normal life, that too was retconned - or in my opinion brought back to normal - since this season it was made clear that hunting is what Sam wanted to do anyway

I think it was retconned from the start because Dean never "dragged" Sam into it. If he hadn`t come to Stanford in the first place, it`s not like Azazel would have packed things up and went home. Same with that stupid "free will is only for you" dialogue in the Season 8 Premiere. Like Dean is just arrogant and stubborn in declaring Kevin has no choice instead of stating that Kevin has no choice, not because DEAN says or makes it so but because another party, Crowley, does. That`s like blaming the doctor who gives you the honest prognosis instead of the disease. If the doctor lied, the disease would still be there. Yet that wasn`t the attitude the show took IMO.

And the voice mail of doom that was apparently oh-so-dastardly whereas Sam`s actions in that episode were never even brought up again made it all completely lopsided.

Thing is, I didn`t even have so much of a problem with what Sam did during hiatus which is not looking for Dean and not helping Kevin, what I had a big problem with was his attitude afterwards. He seemed somewhat glum and put off to see Dean back. As if it was a great big inconvenience. And he appeared to not understand Dean`s hurt reaction to it at all.

In that penny episode, he looked all superior when he implied that Garth would surely be reviled once Dean told the tale of his vampire partner. All, you will look horrible once he knows what you`ve done. Seriously? Like Dean should have rather died in Purgatory than disgrace himself with a vampire? He should have waited for help then that never would have come? If there is one scene that didn`t call for smugness, this was it.

Later in the same episode he apparently had enough, accused Dean of only faking not remembering after the possession and meaning everything - allthewhile he had used the "I didn`t mean it" and totally expected to be taken at face value in similar situations multiple times - and then, my personal favourite declared that he had explained himself enough. `He didn`t explain himself at ALL. But nope, Sam demanded Dean get over it right this instant or else.

It was this entire attitude on display over several episodes that made me feel that he didn`t really regret not looking, he regretted the reaction he got for it. Basically, he seemed sulky Dean wasn`t just instantly and wholeheartedly supportive of his decisions. The speech in the Season 8 Finale tied in with that.

And yet I felt the writing wanted the viewer to root for that as if Dean was the one at fault. Unfortunately, it even bore fruit and Dean who had shown signs of emotional independence devolved deeper into doormatdom than ever before in the end. On top of everything else, that made the Season pretty intolerable to me.

AwesomO4000 · July 10, 2015

I couldn`t stand the first half because even though it was only being possessed by one, we got one more angel!Sam and a little Sam-mytharc (yes, possessions, I do count, considering they are genre-themed) and it was another big barrel of salt in the wound of Dean`s completely dropped angel-connection.

I meant promising as in Sam wasn't written like a jerk like he had been in the beginning of season 8 (In my opinion), but then came "the Purge" and threw that out the window. I disagree about that being Sam mytharc though, because that wasn't Sam. It was Gadreel who later had his own story and actually a bigger part in the season 9 finale arc than Sam did. I'm also not remembering when we previously had angelic Sam. We had angels dissing Sam - a lot - and we had Sam as a vessel for Lucifer, but to me that doesn't count as angel-Sam. So we'll have to agree to disagree with that one.

I think it was retconned from the start because Dean never "dragged" Sam into it. If he hadn`t come to Stanford in the first place, it`s not like Azazel would have packed things up and went home. Same with that stupid "free will is only for you" dialogue in the Season 8 Premiere.

Oh, I agree. Not that Sam supposedly wanting a "normal life" made sense to me - which was what I meant by bringing it back to normal. Again, even though it made little sense to me, it was mostly thrown in there in my opinion for "angst" purposes.

It was this entire attitude on display over several episodes that made me feel that he didn`t really regret not looking, he regretted the reaction he got for it. Basically, he seemed sulky Dean wasn`t just instantly and wholeheartedly supportive of his decisions.

As I said: character assassination. Instead of stepping back and trying to fix things for Sam's character or explain this odd behavior - which as you said made little sense - the writers insisted on making Sam continue to look bad so as to up the angst factor, not really caring how it made Sam look as a character. So long as they had their brother conflict and the later Benny redemption, it was okay to throw Sam under the bus. I was already annoyed at the not looking for Kevin part and them making a joke out of it with the "Eeeeeat me!" stuff. I had a huge problem with it, and it only got worse from there.

I dunno. I guess I'm fairly rare in that I think Sam's automatic distrust of Benny was pretty in character. Here's Dean, who has always had a tough time thinking of monsters as *people*, so much so that he killed Sam's friend Amy*, bonding big time with a vampire. A big, burly, male vampire. (Whatshername, the vamp who kept her nest from killing people--female. Gordon, Hunter-turned-vamp, who hunted Sam like a dog? Male. Sinister Alpha vamp? Male. Male vampires and Sam have a bad track record.)

But Sam was usually the one to give monsters a chance, and his not trusting Dean's judgement also seemed a bit odd. This is Sam who is generally "I'll go along with any plan Dean comes up with" trusting of Dean's judgement. And I guess it wasn't so much Sam's original questioning of Benny that I objected to as much as his over the top anger and insistence that he would kill Benny - which why? What exactly did Benny do to warrant that? - in implied revenge for Amy? Really? Did that episode writer even watch season 7? Sam agreed Dean was right about Amy, but nope, on top of everything else they had to make Sam petty and non-forgiving as well, something he generally was not until Carver took over. Before that Sam was usually quick to forgive even gross examples of betrayal against him, so his over the top response to Benny and his insistence that Benny should die just seemed odd to me. But Carver continued it over into season 9 with Sam not forgiving Dean about the Gadreel thing as well, so it seems he intends to have that stay.

I finally decided Sam did do some looking while fixing Baby, went a little crazy in the process and hitting the dog was a wake up call to him that he was being reckless somewhat like he had been back in S4. And we all know where that road led. So, he packed it in before something worse happened.

Now that I would have completely understood, but the premier went out of the way to show that Sam immediately ditched the phones and went "Not my problem," and that is what bugged me the most. There was no attempt at all to make Sam's actions look sympathetic or like what he would usually do. And the weird thing was that his "normal" life didn't even seem like something Sam would even do. As a temporary job, maybe, but Sam staying a handyman long term just seems odd to me. Sam can't even fix things as far as I knew. If Sam's going to be all "I miss my normal life" at least they could've made it somewhat believable, in my opinion.

DittyDotDot · July 10, 2015

Well, it's not perfect AwesomO, but if you consider that Sam took some time to fix Baby and didn't ditch the phones until after he hit the dog...then there's a gap there that we just don't know what he did.

I don't think the job or the girl was intended to be permanent on the onset, but the longer he stayed the more permanent it became. I also think Sam was hiding from dealing with the fallout of his real life. So, I think it had to be awkward and feel off because it wasn't supposed to be his life.

shang yiet · July 10, 2015

As I said: character assassination. Instead of stepping back and trying to fix things for Sam's character or explain this odd behavior - which as you said made little sense - the writers insisted on making Sam continue to look bad so as to up the angst factor, not really caring how it made Sam look as a character. So long as they had their brother conflict and the later Benny redemption, it was okay to throw Sam under the bus. I was already annoyed at the not looking for Kevin part and them making a joke out of it with the "Eeeeeat me!" stuff. I had a huge problem with it, and it only got worse from there.

I feel the same way. Like I didn't want an explanation myself instead of vague one-liners. I wanted whole episodes and a whole arc devoted to what Sam did when Dean was in purgatory. But the writers couldn't be bothered.

Anyway, Sam was the bad guy again and Dean the victim again of his bad brother. Same old same old. And of course along came Benny the better brother.

amensisterfriend · August 10, 2015

It's that time of year again when I rewatch random old episodes and get all nostalgic in my (and the show's!) old age :) And then I come here and tentatively express the UO that in so many ways the show peaked in S1 for me, maybe not in terms of objective 'quality' but when it comes to sheer enjoyment.

The boys smile so much more, and sometimes it's even at each other! They have their share of conflict, but most of it stems naturally from the differences in their personalities and their complex past rather than just endless, infuriating 'secrets', a nonsensical refusal to communicate and the suspicion that the writers are contractually obligated to have them at odds with each other for the majority of every single season. (I know people love S2, and with good reason, but the nonsense with secrets and inexplicable lack of communication starts even then with the whole "when the hell will Dean tell Sam what John whispered on his death bed even though we kind of all already know and just how much will Sam freak out about it?!" stuff!)

Best of all, back in S1 there was still always the sense that, despite and in some ways even because of their differences in outlook and personality, these two genuinely LIKED each other rather than feeling they're drearily obligated to remain chained to someone they can't stand for all of eternity.

And then there's just the delightful sense of balance that the show (IMUO) never quite recaptured---joy, fun and humor balancing the darker drama and angst, smaller victories and neatly resolved MotWs balancing the larger arc and ongoing issues, creative spins on urban legends that had the Winchesters uniting to battle external foes balancing the more 'personal' family drama that had them confronting the demons within. Dean and Sam were both at their most lovable for me, as a brotherly team and as individuals. While I can totally understand those fans who feel that Dean was too juvenile and cocky in S1, I actually loved that he had those relatable, amusing flaws (as opposed to the soggy, alcohol-drenched, endless "no self-esteem!" stuff) to counterbalance his many strengths, and he was just so vibrant, spirited and alive. His life-embracing energy was so infectious that it made the overall show that much more fun for me to watch. Sam, too, is most likable for me in S1. I even find myself loving his S1 hair :)

It's true that parts of S1 are clunky, but even that now fills me more with affectionate amusement than annoyance...especially as compared to much of what we got later on :)

Edited August 10, 2015 by amensisterfriend

7kstar · August 11, 2015

I like Season 1 Dean even though several don't. IA with the boys having fun and liking each other. Yes, Dean flirts with women and enjoys sex, but he doesn't use them. For me he seems to enjoy them and offers a mutual understanding but doesn't promise to be there forever. I know a lot of women that like that. So if the guy is upfront about it...I see it as normal and even healthy. Understanding his background it makes since why he has major commitment issues.

catrox14 · August 11, 2015

I liked 2 of the first ten eps of s1 and then pretty much everything from Home on , BUT I did not like Dean very much until Dead in the Water and Phantom Traveler. And I really disliked s1 Sam but I think that was performance reasons for me from Jared. I far preferred s2. In fact s1 is probably my least favorite. go figure

Edited August 11, 2015 by catrox14

7kstar · August 11, 2015

Oh Jared's acting has improved greatly. In fact I thought the guy was plain awful in the beginning. But as the characters grew on me I just let it go. I think because I came in from fanfiction, I was looking for things I had read about and that helped me like it more. I don't know how I would have felt if I hadn't had that influence.

Dead in the Water is the one that made me go...hmmm about Jensen and Home was the one that sold me on his acting.

Omegamom · August 11, 2015

S1 had nicely *scary* episodes. Dark and creepy, and the ghosts were much scarier. That herky jerky movement was just hair-raising...the ghosts close enough to human that the weird jerkiness cast them straight into the Uncanny Valley.

MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND · August 11, 2015

Oh Jared's acting has improved greatly. In fact I thought the guy was plain awful in the beginning. But as the characters grew on me I just let it go. I think because I came in from fanfiction, I was looking for things I had read about and that helped me like it more. I don't know how I would have felt if I hadn't had that influence.

Dead in the Water is the one that made me go...hmmm about Jensen and Home was the one that sold me on his acting.

It's funny-I actual liked Jared's acting in the first few seasons, when he was the one that was so sweet, caring, and soft spoken talking to the people that had lost someone etc. It seems the later episodes he is always angry and harsh. Not my favorite Sam.

catrox14 · August 11, 2015

It's funny-I actual liked Jared's acting in the first few seasons, when he was the one that was so sweet, caring, and soft spoken talking to the people that had lost someone etc. It seems the later episodes he is always angry and harsh. Not my favorite Sam.

Heh. And I'm just the opposite. I thought sweet, empathetic Sam was not so much either of those things. And I still can't quite decide if that was Jared's acting because he was trying so hard to make Sam sweet, empathetic and sympathetic and it was just too much with near whisper voice or if it was actually the character of Sam over compensating because he was far more the cold guy we got to know later. I think I lean towards Sam being not as empathetic and caring as he wanted the victims to think he was. He needed information most of the time but he took the good cop path to Deans bad cop. I found when Dean allowed himself to go outside of his normal bravado he made more connection than Sam did. But again is that intentional for character change and growth or acting choices.

Aeryn13 · August 11, 2015

I recognized a lot of myself in Sam Season 1 in terms of how he interacted with others. I usually get pegged as "soft-spoken, outwardly nice and "sweet" by people around me. But really, I will roll my eyes when someone annoys me, just not to their face. I will have my inner monologue of "what a twit", just won`t say it to their face. That is basically what Sam did in most cases. Dean is more in your face and cares little about appearances and being tactful, Sam did, more so in the earlier Seasons.

He was speaking softly to the civilians they wanted info from but as soon as their backs were turned, he showed lots of the same reactions Dean showed them openly. It was a good tactic to get info but that isn`t some big marker of empathy for me. It just looks that way to others, especially if you only have short interactions with them.

Dean uses bravado, bluster and charme in certain situations, Sam puppy dog eyes and soft voices. Both use good looks, even unknowingly. Even both brothers are fooled by the respective persona the other brother puts on, i.e. Dean actually buys into that Sam-is-oh-so-sweet-and-caring-act and Sam actually buys into Dean`s bluster. Observing them, I never really did either. .

Commando Cody · August 11, 2015

Sam's season one voice always sounds odd to me. Sam and Dean didn't sound like they were related. His later voice sounded more natural.

catrox14 · August 11, 2015

Sam's season one voice always sounds odd to me. Sam and Dean didn't sound like they were related. His later voice sounded more natural.

Maybe that's part of what bugged me about s1 Sam. He seemed, I dunno....smarmy but trying to be nice. I dunno can't really articulate it very well. But to be fair, Jared was like 22 or 23 so maybe his voice was that way.

DittyDotDot · August 11, 2015

I always think he has a kind of sing-songy cadence to his voice in S1. It doesn't bother or distract me much, but I generally am struck by it when I go back and watch S1.

These guys have really gown up over the course of the show.

supposebly · August 11, 2015

Overall, I enjoy season 1 so much more than what I've been watching the last 3 years.

Dean uses bravado, bluster and charme in certain situations, Sam puppy dog eyes and soft voices. Both use good looks, even unknowingly. Even both brothers are fooled by the respective persona the other brother puts on, i.e. Dean actually buys into that Sam-is-oh-so-sweet-and-caring-act and Sam actually buys into Dean`s bluster. Observing them, I never really did either. .

I loved that part. Them growing to realize that there was more to the other over the course of the season makes season 1 very consistent for me.

AwesomO4000 · August 11, 2015

All my opinion here of course...

I'm somewhere in the middle. I didn't mind Jared's acting in season 1, and in quite a few scenes I thought he was great. I thought Sam was sometimes a "bad actor," in that he was out of practice... so Jared was playing Sam as out of practice - maybe overdoing it to compensate and/or letting his facade slip almost before he should in order to show that. Through how Jared played Sam, I also thought that Sam was both sometimes more empathetic back then... and sometimes not, because he was younger, more self-involved, and more "emotional" as younger people often are. In general, things in both directions are often felt more intensely when you're younger, so while Sam did at times still feel for the people they were trying to save (like the girl in "Hookman" and the teen in "Bloody Mary"), at other times he could also be feeling things like "you know what? Jessica's dead, and I hurt, too. Why doesn't everyone understand that? I have my own stuff I gotta be dealing with." ("Wendigo" and "Scarecrow") as well as sometimes learning that at times "feeling" for the victims (or the monsters) can get in the way of doing the job in several ways... Like when Sam laments to Dean that he forgot how hard it was to leave the job behind at the end of the day.

Add to that Sam's want for revenge and for it to all to make some sort of sense (i.e. answers), and for me, Sam was a big ball of confusion trying to fit all of these conflicting feelings together while trying to get used to a life he wasn't sure he wanted anymore, but still sometimes felt drawn to... Including having to get used to a role he hadn't had in four years. For four years Sam was in charge of his own life in college, then suddenly he wasn't, in that his life was thrown into turmoil with the demon killing Jessica and having weird visions hitting him and feeling like he was once again not in charge of his own destiny. On top of that, Dean was back in his life, and although Sam loved Dean, his brother was very much the big brother, pushing all Sam's little brother buttons both real ("I'm the older brother, so that means I'm always right.") and imaginary (i.e. the very act of being with family starts up those family dynamics in someone's head without the family member even doing anything themselves), and in season 1, Sam was still sort of resisting that in an "Aw man, I'm the damn little brother again? I thought I was finally done with that." And I can imagine him both being annoyed by that while at the same time finding it "comforting" in that likely many of his best childhood memories were when Dean took care of him and made him feel loved (when John sometimes didn't/couldn't). For me, later on in the series, Sam more or less gives up that "fight" and with the exception of season 4 - where he's once again previously on his own, but this time in a bad way - Sam seems to feel more comfortable back in his little brother role. He's definitely not there in season 1 and I think it - understandably - shows.

So for me, there was a lot going on emotoinally with Sam. Dean had a lot, too, of course, but his were more focused on John and his ideas about family. They were less conflicting. For me, it made sense that Sam was sometimes "feeling it" with the person in peril of the week, while at other times he was just more "Really? I just can't with this crap today. I have my own problems."

Later on in series, Sam sort of had much of that empathy beaten out of him, because in general his empathy mostly got him grief and worse... big example being the end of season 2. But often there weren't as many conflicting emotions as he had in season 1. Sometimes there were - like season 4 - but often they were more focused on one thing/concern (season 3, 5, second half of season 6 and 7).

Aeryn13 · August 11, 2015

so while Sam did at times still feel for the people they were trying to save (like the girl in "Hookman" and the teen in "Bloody Mary"

A staple of the show has always been that when each brother truly empathizes with a person/victim/villain of the week, it was because they thought that person mirrored their own situation. Sometimes that was true, sometimes that was projection. The Hookman girl was a grieving College kid who had just recently her boyfriend. Lucas in Dead in the Water reminded Dean of his kid self, the parallel was even less subtle with the brother pair in Something Wicked.

In Season 2, during his "I`m evol" phase, Sam inversed that process. Whereas before, the Psykids had to be good or at least could be saved, see Max Miller, he considered Andy the mind-warper evil from the jump.

Ànd the show is usually VERY unsubtle about drawing and writing these parallels so it kinda takes away from the empathy factor. It`s like you still sympathize mostly with yourself, the narrative just gives you an outside stand-in. I will say at least it was a bit more fresh and had more feelings to it in the earlier Seasons. These days, I dread those stupid parallels so much, like the Ghostbusters sprouting dialogue that seemed lifted from Dean and Sam`s own issues at the time, even though the situations weren`t really comparable.

Sometimes, they will even use those outside characters to make their points to each other which is even more obnoxious. I hate such writing tropes.

It`s extremely rare the brothers make a connection with someone outside of the stupid parallel writing. Then, you can see true empathy creeping in. Like, Dean`s fondness for geeky weirdos like Ronald. Now he has a bit of geeky weirdo in himself but at least those characters are not carbon copies of him so the connection, writing-wise, feels so much more genuine and less forced. As always, a lesson that these writers hardly implement: less is actually more.

7kstar · August 11, 2015

For me, the early season always had a few moments like WTF?

It didn't naturally fit with the characters and it threw me out of the story. I had to work to get back in. Most of the time it could be the writing but sometimes it was acting choices.

Ex. Sam basically telling Dean's he's stupid when he is showing off his new invention he created. I think the reason I feel more like it's Jared's acting is because instead of it feeling complex, it feels off. Sure the little brother putting down his brother so he can feel better about himself...but it just didn't work for me. Not sure if I explained it well or not.

I think that is why Supernatural has so much fanfiction, there is so much you can do with it due to the issues the writers created and with a lack of resolution...well you just have to solve that. :)

AwesomO4000 · August 11, 2015

A staple of the show has always been that when each brother truly empathizes with a person/victim/villain of the week, it was because they thought that person mirrored their own situation. Sometimes that was true, sometimes that was projection. The Hookman girl was a grieving College kid who had just recently her boyfriend. Lucas in Dead in the Water reminded Dean of his kid self, the parallel was even less subtle with the brother pair in Something Wicked.

In Season 2, during his "I`m evol" phase, Sam inversed that process. Whereas before, the Psykids had to be good or at least could be saved, see Max Miller, he considered Andy the mind-warper evil from the jump.

This is true. I forgot about the switch in season 2.* Even Dean was a part of that one sometimes, or at least he was less empathetic if he thought the person in peril made a mistake that lead to their problem - like in "Crossroads Blues." Dean didn't even want to empathize with the guy who had wanted to save his wife, while Sam did (and that was one where I thought the parallels weren't there or at least not obvious, so I appreciated that one on Sam's part), but it could've been that Dean may have already been projecting his own feelings about John and what John did in making the deal. Although Sam, too, still wanted to save the artist guy as well, whereas Dean was more apt to let him lie in the bed he made.

I'm glad Dean got it back a little for Ronald...

But then they kind of switched again for "Houses of the Holy" and a bit in "Folsom Prison Blues" with Sam more on the side of "maybe they deserved it" and Dean more on the side of empathy, so maybe season 2 was a little more varied than season 1 in that regard. After the season 2 finale, Sam for me had a bit less empathy (and I didn't really blame him after "All Hell..., Pt1"): "Bedtime Stories" Sam and "Dream A Little Dream of Me" Sam for example. And that reached a peak in season 4 where Sam seemed at first to try - he seemed sincere to me when he talked about saving the hosts from demon possession - but then later pretty much said "screw it" - "Yellow Fever," "Death Takes a Holiday," "Jump the Shark," and "Lucifer Rising." (I wasn't too fond of season 4 partially for this reason - also for the relentless grim and piling on the Dean angst). I was glad to see Sam back (for me) in season 5.

* Though it seemed to start with Andy in "Simon Said," since Sam still showed some of the "monster empathy" in "Bloodlust."

It`s extremely rare the brothers make a connection with someone outside of the stupid parallel writing. Then, you can see true empathy creeping in. Like, Dean`s fondness for geeky weirdos like Ronald. Now he has a bit of geeky weirdo in himself but at least those characters are not carbon copies of him so the connection, writing-wise, feels so much more genuine and less forced. As always, a lesson that these writers hardly implement: less is actually more.

Yeah, I appreciated those times: Sam in "Crossroad Blues," Dean in "Ghostfacers," Sam in "Bloody Mary" (Sam didn't learn about the parallels with the teen and him until after he already had empathy for her.), Dean in "Houses...," both of them in "Folsom Prison Blues" (though Dean moreso; Sam was a bit preoccupied with "my brother's going to get himself thrown in supermax"), both again some in "Sam, Interrupted," and Sam in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid." (I definitely appreciated the Sam/Jodi interaction here since they have some parallels, but not really close ones, so they seem to be truthfully concerned/empathetic with one another.)

There's probably more I'm forgetting.

SueB · August 11, 2015

I have to say my love for Sam has grown over the years. First... I am a generally always sympathetic to both brothers so even when they do something I really dislike, I can usually chalk it up to something I can at least understand. My Sam feels over the years:

- S1: He was clearly the "normal" one at the start and I liked him ...but I loved him in "little brother" mode the best. Those were excellent times. I was a little pissed at him when he didn't want to stay with Dean (but as I said, I understood). I was stunned when he turned rage-monster with John. And I found it really fascinating. It was the way Jared portrayed "rational" Sam losing his shit that really sold the three-way dynamic of Sam/John/Dean. Suddenly Dean as the peacekeeper and Sam and John as two towers of seething issues made perfect sense.

- S2: I found him likeable, smart and funny.

- S3: Oy, my heart hurt for him. Watching him fall apart over losing Dean? But like the previous years, I thought he did well but not "out of the park" except for a few occasions. But then came Mystery Spot -- and again the parallels with John were so evident. And I completely agreed with the Trickster about who was the real psychopath of the two (but not in a bad way).

- S4: Sam pissed me off. I got the story, I understood his actions, I understood his weakness and knew he was being exploited. But I didn't feel the sympathy for him that I should have IMO.

- S5: My feelings for Sam were all over the map. This was probably the first time I really saw his personal issues on display in heart-rending fashion (even though the story had gone there before). I felt bad for him every single time he was raked over the coals for killing Lilith. Because up until Dean found out it was a trick he was on the "kill Lillith" bandwagon. Now the way Sam got there in S4 (drinking demon blood) was inherently bad, but what they guilted him over was starting the Apocalypse. But then came "Dark Side of the Moon". And I appreciate that it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation that Zachariah was manipulating things. But I can't help but feel like those "happy" memories WERE Sam's memories. And while it is perfectly reasonable to want to leave his batshit Dad, it just broke my heart that not ONE of his memories was about Dean. I bought Dean's despair at that hook, line, and sinker. And then he turns around and does that wonderful thing where he puts all his faith in Dean in "Point of No Return" and I'm happy with Sam again. I really think Jared's acting took a step up in S5. He really was excellent as Lucifer in The End. And I bought the little brother vibe, again.

- S6: I liked Soulless Sam. He was psychotic but funny. Up until he tried to kill Bobby and the finale. But I enjoyed his character and Jared's performance. Still, it always bothered me how he was a bit digital. Either Hell had him batshit crazy or he was feeling no guilt. There was no in-between.

- S7: I enjoyed him a great deal. No particular episode comes to mind, but he just felt "good".

- S8: I like the hair. Stop judging me. The story-line was BULLSHIT. But I could come up with a rational explanation - that CARVER FAILED TO USE. My personal headcanon is that hitting the dog and staying with Amelia was another version of running. By now I see Sam as someone who is a master at compartmentalizing. And I think Jared did a good job of showing that. I like delirious Sam and totally bought into his sense of worthlessness in the church. Yes, it was manipulative by Carver. No, I don't care.

- S9: He was so good until he found out about Gadreel. And then his anger was justified. But the "no brothers" thing pissed me off. I understood that this was an angry Sam not knowing what else to do. And then when he CRUSHED Dean about "not doing the same." Again, I totally GOT that Sam was talking about self-determination and that Dean only heard "I don't love you." But it still crushed me. And I was mad that he took so long to notice that the Mark was an issue. Now that was intentional plot blindness written by Carver, so it's somewhat forgiven by me. I also really started to appreciate Jared's acting more.

- S10: I thought this was an excellent Sam season. Yes, he stubbornly ignored the "don't do that!" warnings. But that's kinda him. I'm okay with it. And I thought Jared did so well portraying a panicked Sam (again). Finally, I can't watch that finale without tearing up as Sam is looking up at his brother with such a trusting face when Dean is about to behead him. Oh my heart.

So.. Sam has been up and down for me but I've generally sympathize with the character and find myself more moved by Jared's performances as the years go on.

Edited August 11, 2015 by SueB

catrox14 · August 11, 2015

I think s10 was the first time I really liked Sam almost from beginning to end even with his poor choices. I didn't like the DEAN IS A HORRIBLE MESS AND WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE IF I DON'T KEEP THIS BIG SECRET THAT Sam and Cas saw it but we didn't or they thought they saw .

But I thought this is a smart if freaked out Sam who finally understands and accepts his life as a hunter...or should I say re-accepts it. That's they only way I can handle s8 Sam is that he came back to his roots.

And I also think Jared's acting was better or maybe he just felt more Sam like. I dunno

Aeryn13 · August 12, 2015

Dean didn't even want to empathize with the guy who had wanted to save his wife, while Sam did (and that was one where I thought the parallels weren't there or at least not obvious, so I appreciated that one on Sam's part), but it could've been that Dean may have already been projecting his own feelings about John and what John did in making the deal.

Oh, the Crossroad Blues people were totally the Dean-inverse-stand-ins. He felt guilty and angry so he projected those feelings onto them. It was the same with Sam projecting his issues onto Andy. And the respective other brother will, in such situations, hold the opposite position because the narrative has to present both. Even if it isn`t the position you might usually expect from them.

In a way, they are also projecting, only in reverse. Sam thought he was dork-cestined so he projected this on Andy. At the same time Dean wanted to convince Sam, himself and the known world that Sam was not dork-destined so he projected that as well. Dean felt angry about John`s deal so he projected this onto the deal-,makers. At the same time Sam desperately wanted Dean to let go of the anger and guilt and be okay with what John did so of course he argued in favour of the deal-,makers.

That is also kinda what I meant when I said they often talk their issues through people. Those characters might as well be mute and the brothers simply write angry messages towards each other onto them and pass them on like a note in class.

SueB · August 12, 2015

Those characters might as well be mute and the brothers simply write angry messages towards each other onto them and pass them on like a note in class.

I think someone on Tumblr did a picture series of sticky notes between Sam, Dean and Cas in the Bunker. It was pretty hilarious.

amensisterfriend · August 24, 2015

I've realized that I don't agree with the seemingly popular opinion that JP's acting was poor in S1 and gradually improved. He actually made Sam really likable and (for lack of a better way of putting it) "real" for me in that first season. In many ways I think both leads did their best acting in those first few seasons---due in no small part to the fact that the writing gave them more than just angst, angst and more angst to project in most episodes and allowed them to show a more genuine rapport with each other. They just both seemed very natural to me, you know?! JA wasn't consciously doing that five-packs-a-day-smoker voice and JP wasn't doing quite as much nostril flaring/pouting---he got to smile a lot more rather than having to perpetually pout. There weren't as many melodramatic "chick flick" moments or overemoting---both leads were written more as guys you might actually know (and like!), and I feel like both actors contributed to and benefited from that.

And Mettalicar totally shined brightest in those first few seasons as well...she totally bought into her own hype later on. (Kidding, kidding!)

Aeryn13 · August 24, 2015

I think or at least from what I`ve seen Jared`s acting ability gets judged on the multiple incarnations of the character which happened in the later Seasons. Thing is, I thought Soulless Sam just used some of the same elements that Blood Junkie Sam had in terms of arrogance and that made me not enjoy the performance either, alongside not enjoying the writing. As for always being able to distingiush when it was Gadreel, well, they put in a blue eye glow at the beginning of every single scene like the audience was comprised of a bunch of numbskulls so I can`t make that claim. And the Mr.Roboto version of the first episode was actually horrible to me. Personally, I`m somewhat divided on the Lucifer thing with falling more in the way of not liking it.

Where I do believe he did exceptional work at mimicry on what the original Meg actress had done was his version in Born under a bad Sign. That was a powerful performance and yeah, it was Season 2.

So in the end, I`m not really a fan of the multiple Sam-versions in general, not writing-wise and not acting-wise.

I also think Jensen did some of his best work in the earlier Seasons too. I did enjoy some Demon!Dean stuff and MOC!stuff but the writing was too inconsistent to get a general throughline so those are just performances here and there in several episodes I liked on their own.

Also in general, I think Jensen is good at comedy but I do enjoy him doing drama more. Or rather the writers often tend to be tone-deaf in terms of comedy anyway. Not wangst-drama, mind you. His biggest strength of a performer for me has always been the ability to soften dialogue or play it with a more charming angle. 95 % of dialogue on SPN if only read would IMO read as being said by assholes. The writers have an increasingly hard time at writing charming, relatable or likeable. Especially for Dean. That is where Jensen comes in to saves lines. He can`t save all of them but most that I can bear watching.

That is not something Jared does IMO. When Sam is written like an asshole, he plays it straight or worse, he plays it up. And he can not make Mary Sue stuff work for me. At all. The character tropes will always annoy me but some actors can save that to a degree. Colin Morgan as Merlin used to single-handedly endear the character to me despite the writing`s best efforts not to do so by the over-victimized Chosen One crap. Where Jared and Sam shine is IMO in lighter more fun comedy moments or if his wit is snarky but not with a mean edge.

Something else that I always found curious about the show - and that`s not really got to do anything with acting and maybe only little with writing but more production - is that for an action-adventure supernatural show it has very little in the way of good action. Buffy and Angel had awesome stunt work and action in nearly every ep, Arrow is mindblowing in its action, even romance-based Vampire Diaries has the odd action scene that hits. Supernatural had a couple fight scenes here and there but for the most part it`s not freaking memorable. Jensen might have done more on the one Season and one episode of Dark Angel than ten years of SPN combined. I know he likes doing it since he has repeatedly said so but overall it`s just not happening. Supernatural is actually the only show of its ilk that is so meh on providing some fun action work.

DittyDotDot · August 24, 2015

I actually used to prefer the low-tech action on the show. In my mind, it fit the universe. These weren't supposed to be Kung Foo fighers, so to speak, but just regular guys that learned to fight barroom-brawl style. I think that's one of the things that helped ground the show in the early seasons. Before the mighty hand of Ipec and the angel swords and the overuse of spell work lately. In the early seasons, I thought they had a lot of well-constructed action sequences--the one between Sam and shifter Dean in Skin; the one with Dean driving fast and furious in Route 666; the bar crashing scene in The Magnificent Seven.

I would agree that lately they haven't done much of this, but I did think the one in First Born with Dean grabbing anything in sight to fight those demons while Cain shucked corn was pretty clever. Otherwise, it's a lot of the same old, same old, but that's kinda par with the show in general. But then again, how many new ways can are there to punch people after 10 years?

Personally, I think both Jared and Jensen have grown in their acting ability and both have also fallen into some bad habits along the way too.

Aeryn13 · August 24, 2015

but I did think the one in First Born with Dean grabbing anything in sight to fight those demons while Cain shucked corn was pretty clever.

I loved that, too. And I would like to see at least more of this. While I love martial arts, it doesn`t bother me so much that the brothers aren`t trained that way but they were still trained by a Marine so some form of hand-to-hand combat. The fight with Sam and shifter!Dean (obviously using real Dean`s memories) actually showed off some moves, blocking and counter-blocking. But most of the time, if there is action, it`s short, mindless clobbering, it shows no moves and no finesse and is just meh to me.

And if not hand-to-hand, I`d take some sharp-shooting, blade-throwing, bow-shooting, basically anything that shows them to be trained fighters. Dean has used a sniper rifle, apparently could do old Western quick draw and is quite a marksman. They can build episodes around every random shit available, why not encompass some of this some more? Or heck, they could aquire some new skills and train etc.

For the most part, it just has been a continuous let down for me.

But then again, how many new ways can are there to punch people after 10 years?

With shows using lots of action scenes, I`ve never really had this problem of it becoming boring or repetitious, even if the protagonists (or antagonists) have, at best, a clear fighting style where you can see them repeat individual moves often. I just love it as much the 10th time as the first one. This is the one area where repetitiveness doesn`t bother me. And god knows, SPN covers ALL the areas where it does.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Aeryn13

rue721 · August 24, 2015

I like the low-tech clobbering. I do think the fight scenes could be choreographed better, though -- imo they would be better if they had more movement. It seems like the characters don't go from room to room or use props very much, and instead tend to stay in one place and fight sort of in slow-mo. Like in that fight between Abbadon and Dean, when he killed her with the First Blade. They squared off and took turns attacking each other like they were English soldiers in the Revolutionary War. That fight would have been better if it had been more dynamic imo.

Aeryn13 · August 24, 2015

I do think the fight scenes could be choreographed better, though -- imo they would be better if they had more movement.

This is what I want to see, some choreography and dynamic to the fight/action scenes. The way they are shot for the most part, it looks very static and bland.

catrox14 · August 24, 2015

What I love about SPN stuntwork is that the boys typically do their own fight scenes as much as possible. They can act and stage fight and sell that shit so well that I cringe when they punch each other or other people. It doesn't use as much of the quick cutting to put the stunt perfomers in the scene.

As far as the brevity of the fights in the show, that's how fights are IRL. They don't go on and on when people are beating each other. Someone drops or gives up because of a broken nos or cue ball to the face. I thought the choreography of the fight in First Born great and smart and well crafted that I didn't mind it's length plus it was demons. I thought the torture scene between Sam and Cole was a disturbing as anything the show has done yet because it wasn't an angel or demon.

I love Arrow (even though it sorely tested me last season). They have huge action set pieces that are cinematic. Season 3 fights became much more staged than the hand to hand fight scenes in s1 and s2 when the fight scenes were really organic because Amell, Ramsey, Caity Lotz, Manu Bennett etc. Even the weekly villain fights were just brutal. I prefer that kind of fighting because I feel worried for the characters more than the big huge 10 people in a tunnel fight scenes.

But that's jsut me.

So my unpopular opinion is the more realistic the fight the better and the more practical stunts the better.

Edited August 24, 2015 by catrox14

Aeryn13 · August 24, 2015

I think most actors love to do stunt work as much as possible. There is probably someone in every Tom Cruise production who rocks themselves back and forth due to insurance issues. Because that goes to the point of insanity from what I hear. Jensen himself has said many times that he loves doing it. I just wish he got more of a chance.

As far as the brevity of the fights in the show, that's how fights are IRL.

But it`s still TV and therefore mundane stuff is usually either cut or made more exciting, just the nature of the beast. In real life, noone would drive 12 hours to their destination and only then talk about why they are there and what they plan to do in an expositionary way. Only the show does this all the time, mostly in really an unorganic manner.

So if they break common sense in every other manner to make it more TV-like, they can damn well put some work in the stunts. I`ve made no qualms about thinking the writers of this show nearly uniformly suck but in terms of the production crew in Vancouver, I think those do, for the most part, a good job. Directors can be iffy but location, set design and all that are not bad at all. Special and practical effects are always a question of budget but generally they aren`t horrible. Lighting and camera work and sound are also decent, though that is more a directorial issue as well. Costume design might be a bit one-sided but also not terrible. What happens when costume sucks, you can see on the later Seasons on Charmed.

The only departments that I think drop the ball are stunt/action and frankly, hair and make-up. Like, holy orange tanning Batman. And while Dean`s hair is often cut nearly to the skulp, it is nowhere near as bad as the unspeakable things they sometimes do with Sam`s hair.

catrox14 · August 24, 2015

My point was more that I appreciate when an actor does their own stunts if possible. I don't give a shit that Tom Cruise hangs from a plane or a mountain side. I don't give points for that. I think that's nuts. If Jensen or Jared decided to climb up a mountain or jump out of an airplane for Supernatural, I'd be like WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?

I appreciate the authenticity in fight scenes or jumping off something or leaping over a fence or parkour (which Stephen Amell can do) because the actor can actually emote whilst stage fighting. That is what I'm referring to. And not all actors can actually do that well either. I think our cast is much better than most. I mean Katie Cassidy couldn't throw a decent fake punch as Ruby and she still can't as Laurel on Arrow. It's so bad.

I think the editing with substituting the actor for the stunt actor is better now as with the fights between Cole and Dean in s10. That was pretty flawless in the first fight.

I think the hair and makeup got much better after s8. I liked Sam's hair in s9, and so far it looks pretty great in s11 based on the BTS stuff I'm seeing. I think the cuts and bruises are much better and more realistic.

To me the fast brutal fights are better than the long drawn out overly choreographed fights. I don't need to watch smoke be exorcised out for like 5 minutes but I could watch another First Born type fight because of how practical it was.

I think the fights work in SPN because it's fantastical but it's not a superhero hero show like Arrow or Agents of Shield or the Flash.

Edited August 24, 2015 by catrox14

rue721 · August 24, 2015

The First Born fight was probably the best one they've ever done. Ideally, every fight scene would be that good, but I don't think that's really realistic/reasonable to expect and I'm not going to get down on the show for not having a showstopper like that in every episode. That *is* the gold standard for SPN, though, I think.

What was best about that fight imo was how dynamic it was. They used the whole space, and each character was doing his own thing -- so there was a lot of movement and a lot to watch. I loved how Cain was meanwhile grabbing a beer, and how Dean was using props and the geography of the room in how he was fighting. I also loved that when they cut from the fight, it was to Crawley fighting in the next room (so the momentum stayed up) -- and that *that* fight was going entirely differently and had a very different tone, so it did feel like a little break (which helped with the pacing imo).

I think that the way they used the whole space and used props and ******showed character through fighting choices/style***** are all things that SPN could do in any given fight scene (and I think it would be awesome if they played with that stuff more), though.

Personally, I think that fights being a bit grittier and more realistic than you'd expect suits SPN very well and it's something that I hope that they keep. The things that I personally look for in a fight scene are dynamism and innovation, and I like the fight to mean something within the story -- but I don't think any of that stuff is in conflict with the (relatively realistic/gritty) tone of SPN's fights.

In terms of these ultimately being scenes in a TV show and meant to be high on entertainment value, I also like fights to have character-based consequences or reveals, too, and that aren't just a flashy sort of exposition or plot-service. I think the show is kind of hit or miss on that -- sometimes they go overboard with the symbolism and parallels and all that, and sometimes the fights seem kind of meaningless and workmanlike. But veering between being overly symbolic/abstract and being too workmanlike is something that the show's writing struggles with in general, imo -- that's not something that just (or even primarily) affects the fight scenes.

Just as a side note, a show that is surprising good at fight scenes imo is Hannibal. Now I want to see the Winchesters come head to head against Hannibal. Especially Dean, because he tends to be the strategic one. It would be so fun to watch Hannibal and Dean play cat and mouse!

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