Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[DittyDotDot]

The First Born fight was probably the best one they've ever done. Ideally, every fight scene would be that good, but I don't think that's really realistic/reasonable to expect and I'm not going to get down on the show for not having a showstopper like that in every episode. That *is* the gold standard for SPN, though, I think.

 

I agree it's not a realistic expectation for every episode to have that type of fight scene, mostly because it took, if I remember right, a whole day to shoot just that one scene. I don't think they always have the time to do that at the pace they're working at.

 

Plus, if they did this every episode, wouldn't it loose it's luster for us viewers and become rather mundane after a while?

Edited August 24, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Goldmoon]

Re Dean's hair being shaved almost to the scalp.  Please let it grow out just a bit!  I don't want to see his skin under his layer of hair, and frankly, he looks a lot less sexy with that imitation of a marine high&tight!  He is not Gibbs!

[Aeryn13]

 

If Jensen or Jared decided to climb up a mountain or jump out of an airplane for Supernatural, I'd be like WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?

 

I don`t think they would ever attempt such a thing nor would insurance allow it, even if the such stunts were in the budget for the show. I do give Cruise props for doing it but he worked for years to basically aquire all the skills a stuntman would have and he can get away with it because of his star power. 

 

But I would never expect a smallish TV show to do stuff like that. 

 

 

The things that I personally look for in a fight scene are dynamism and innovation, and I like the fight to mean something within the story -- but I don't think any of that stuff is in conflict with the (relatively realistic/gritty) tone of SPN's fights.

 

Me neither. The way I see it the action just could be a lot better and still keep within the tone of the show. There is simply no excuse to make them as bland and lame as 95 % of them are. And it`s just so damn noticeable to me how freaking stale they are. If they were mediocre for the most part, I might not even notice in the myriad of all the other problems the show have. Or maybe if the writing and direction in other areas were stellar, I could shrug off the lackuster action. But as it is, even that failing just annoys me all the more.

[amensisterfriend]

Another UO: I've realized that I like both S6 (I'm such a sucker for stuff about the soul...or lack thereof!) and S7 more than most do...and S4 and S5 less than most do. And that I have really bizarre taste :) 

Edited August 25, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Commando Cody]

I didn't like season 6 in general, but it did have some good episodes. I didn't like season 7 the first time I watched it.  On later viewings, I liked it more.  I liked James Patrick Stuart as Dick.  Frank was a good snarky character.  I didn't care for the Bobby, as a ghost, story. 

 

I haven't watched 8,9 and 10 enough times to remember what happened in what order and what belonged to what season.  I could have done without Garth.

 

I think my problem with the later episodes is that they like to bring back characters that didn't need to return.  Like Jimmy's stupid daughter and the college werewolf - plus her sister.   

[Aeryn13]

I think Season 5, at least the ending, undid a lot of good Season 4 did. On its own, I still consider it a great Season but it`s hard to keep that up knowing how that potential is just a red herring. 

 

Meaning I actually hate a lot of Season 5, don`t consider it good at all. The second half at least is mostly made of suck.

 

Now Season 7, I didn`t think a single epsode was good in. Like, not a one whereas I think Season 5 did have some good episodes. But if I were to meassure them against each other, I would probably even give Season 7 the edge because if I have a choice between "offensive" and "boring", I will choose boring. The Amy debacle was offensive but luckily quickly forgotten and the rest of Season 7 was just boring and bland. Meanwhile Season 5 enraged me which was ultimately worse.

 

Season 6, I just found the first half to be so hateful (and that after coming off my most hated TV episode of all time in Suck Song), the second half couldn`t save it. Sure, it was better but not good. So a minus 10 and a plus 2 still equals something in the minus range.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Supernatural Smackdown" thread, just to be safe:

 

I actually loved the scene with War because I thought War was spot-on and that actually made me feel bad for and sympathetic to Sam. Well, then Fallen Idols happened where Dean got the blame for being bossy and driving Sam into the arms of Ruby who made him "feel strong". And the narraitve backed this 100 % with Dean asking in the end how he could change. That fucked up the entire personal conflict for me from Season 4 and after that everything on that level was just crap in my eyes.

 

I'm being entirely serious when I ask how would supposedly wanting to be "stronger than anyone" be interpreted as sympathetic? In my opinion, that's pretty much short-hand for megalomaniacal jerk, and that's how the show meant it to sound. I can not think of a type of show where such a character would be considered as sympathetic, unless it was something like maybe Mad Men (? - which admittedly I haven't seen), but I'm not sure "sympathetic" was exactly supposed to be the point of that - and likely why I was never interested in watching it. Why would I want to feel sympathetic for a character who supposedly wanted to be more powerful than everyone and look down on them?

 

As for "Fallen Idols," I feel that that episode has been given way more weight than it deserves. It was Sam momentarily going back to the "little brother" thing - which to be fair, what Sam was referring to was a time when Sam had every right to be pissed off about Dean treating him like the little brother - i.e. making the deal - and now leaving Sam with the difficult task of trying to save him and yet complaining about every way Sam tried to do that. So yes, I sympathized with Sam saying that going with Ruby didn't make him feel like the "little brother," because with Ruby, Sam felt that he had a choice and that maybe he might be able to save Dean. And Sam's point was that Dean looking over Sam'a shoulder on every little thing he (Sam) did now and contradicting Sam just because - as happened on that case - wasn't working, just like it didn't work for Sam when Dean autonomously made the deal and then just decided Sam was not allowed to try to do anything about it, because Dean said so. That's what wasn't working, because it was interfering with the case.

 

I didn't see the narrative as saying Dean was responsible for Sam's choices, because he wasn't, and Sam even told him such, but Dean was responsible for the current situation where he was letting his feelings interfere with the case. And that was what Dean decided that he needed to change now. It had nothing to do with what had happened earlier. I don't think that just because the narrative was saying that at the present Dean needed to keep his head on the cases and their work that that somehow translated into that it was Dean's fault for Sam's choices. Did Dean make Sam feel like he was trapped in season 3... I say, yes, he did, and I think that Dean should feel responsible for that, but does that mean Dean was then responsible for what Sam did in response to that. No, and I don't think the show said so either, or the narrative wouldn't keep pointing out how crappy Sam's choices were at every opportunity and for many seasons later.

 

Did Sam have to change too - sure... but Sam already had changed.  He was trying very hard to make the situation work, and he did it while being given false information. Dean didn't have to not be angry, and he didn't have to always trust Sam in everything, but Dean chose not to stick up for himself or explain why he came back, so if he wanted to make their working relationship actually work, then he had to live with that decision and not let his feeling get in the way of the job. Sam would return the favor and have his "Fallen Idols" moment of compromise in "The Mentalists," where he deferred to Dean's will/wishes in order to make their working relationship better.

 

And I think I'm done discussing "Fallen Idols" episode. I feel that my interpretation is pretty strong and supported by the later narrative, and it isn't going to change.

 

I think that control was an illusion since secretely Ava was muhahahing all over the place. Could have happened to any character, being duped that is, but it`s not an example of leadership to me.

 

I didn't say that Sam showed control over the situation in "All  Hell..., pt1" I said that Sam showed leadership abilities, and he did. Ava may have been playing everyone, but Andy followed Sam and believed in what he was doing, and even Jake recognized Sam's ability to put his own fears aside and take charge where it was needed. In my opinion, that Ava was duping him didn't change that Sam could and was doing the leadership thing.

 

I think Dean actually did have character growth after Purgatory but the trial beat him right back down to servant-nanny-sidekick and I was disgusted to see it.

 

 

For me, most of the Purgatory growth was nullified by that whole plot where Dean convinced himself / remembered incorrectly / deluded himself or whatever that was, that it was all his fault that Castiel didn't come back from Purgatory, because of course it had to be Dean's fault. *sarcasm* I guess Dean just has that low a self-esteem that even though he made it through purgatory and got Castiel to the door, he just had to have thought that he failed, because he, Dean always fails and everything's always his fault.  Yeah, I already saw that one a bunch of times, and I guess killing Dick Roman and surviving purgatory wasn't enough to snap Dean out of that one. Very disappointing for me. The theory that Dean believed it was his fault because of his control issues and/or that it was easier for Dean to think it was his fault rather than Castiel choosing to stay behind / leave him aren't really any better conclusions to come to for me either. The second one still feeds into Dean's lack of self-esteem, and thinking every one will leave him because he's crap despite tons of evidence to the contrary. It's all still the same thing.

 

And then all of that crappy "message" was made worse by the writing deciding randomly to have Sam "reinforce" Dean's pity party by acting like a jerk, so not only do we have a Dean coming out of purgatory with still no character growth on the self-esteem issues, the narrative wants me to feel sorry for him, too, by throwing Sam under the bus by making him the "crappy brother" to Dean's poor, low self esteem, abused Dean. At that point I was almost "why not?" Dean's going to think of himself as crap anyway, why even bother not treating him that way? All it ended up doing was making me dislike them both and be so damn happy when the first half of that season was over.

 

For me the "servant-nanny-sidekick" thing - though I didn't see it that way - made no difference at that point. If after killing Dick Roman, being a kick ass survivor for a year in purgatory, gaining the trust of a vampire, being able to have the where-with-all to make it and find Castiel and get out of Purgatory, Dean still has almost no self-esteem, I really can't see how I'm supposed to believe he's ever going to get it. He could save Sam, Cas, and the world multiple times and be told how awesome he is and still think of himself as crap, because... well who knows why. At some point, I just don't care that much anymore.

 

Whereas on SPN at first the name Winchester didn`t mean squat to people in general and to other hunters maybe something positive. At least competence was associated with it. People may have thought John was a dickbag but early on noone really seemed to assume that his sons must be the same. Noone tried to drive THEM from their property with a shotgun just because of the reputation of John.

 

I'm not so convinced of that myself. It seems that John  pissed off a lot of people, and even though Ellen was at first pretty accepting of Sam and Dean, it didn't take too much for her to assume "like father, like sons" and kick them off of her property later on. And Jo soon followed suit.

[mertensia]

I don't know; I think it's not farfetched to have self-esteem issues about yourself while being good at your job. And I think that probably fits Dean. He was raised to be a Hunter and to keep Sam safe. Not to be Dean Winchester, person.

[AwesomO4000]

True, but it's not just his job that Dean is good at. People also seem to like Dean and easily follow his lead, showing that they respect his opinion. As I said, he even got respect from a vampire, and vampires generally look down on people. He gets women easily. He's good with machines, especially Baby, who he gets compliments about. He's smart and resourceful, and can think on the fly. He can eat like a pig and still get to look good. He's personable, so that he's able to fit in almost anywhere and people accept him there. I'm having a hard time thinking of any real negatives here except that gosh darn it, he just doesn't think he's good enough.*

 

At some point, I would hope Dean would be able to grow past John's criticisms and realize that except for on a rare occasion when Sam is really pissed, the main person telling Dean he's crap, is Dean himself. Especially since that kind of thinking has gotten him into serious trouble more than once.

 

I understand that this is an unpopular opinion, and that most will disagree, but I'm more than ready for Dean to get off the low self-esteem train. At some point it just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and at that point I'm going to lose much of my sympathy for him in that regard. I mean, if Dean thinks he's so crappy, then he should actively do something to fix it. Set himself a goal to where he'd feel good about accomplishing it, and then do that until he doesn't think he's crappy anymore rather than just telling himself that he's crap and stewing in it until he does something stupid because of it.

 

* Maybe Dean needs a Stuart Smalley intervention.

[mertensia]

Well yeah it's time. Definitely. In real life of course it isn't that simple but this is a case where the show shouldn't mirror real life.

Negative traits? He can be very jump to conclusiony and often acts before thinking. He can also get tunnel-vision : see Kevin's death. He's certainly been judgmental about women's looks. Frankly I would add his willingness to let someone (usually Sam) do the research. And he can be self and Winchester centered. See: Weekend at Bobby's.

[AwesomO4000]

I'll give you most of those, but I think the reason why I don't generally remember them is that in Dean's case, only sometimes do those count as negative, and usually it tips towards almost being a positive. And this is often because - in my opinion anyway - even though those should normally be negative traits, within the show, many of them aren't portrayed that way. Most often the conclusions Dean jumps to are proven to be right (good examples: Naomi, Gadreel is good, Ruby is evil). Sometimes when he jumps to conclusions about little things, it turns out that he might be wrong, but not generally on the big stuff.

 

Similarly Dean's acting without thinking often turns out fine, too like Meg can be trusted to take care of Castiel, almost any time they go in guns blazing, and even to en extent taking on the Mark of Cain: that mostly went South only because Sam thought it to death and made a stupid decision - in fact in most cases it is thinking about something that generally causes the boys the most problems - such as Dean's deal, Sam's demon blood drinking, Sam using the Book of the Dammed, etc. Dean's acting without thinking more often just shows that he has good instincts. Miles are going to vary on this, I know, but in show, when there aren't consistently bad consequences for jumping to conclusions or acting without thinking, I tend to see them less as character faults and more as commentary showing Dean as having good instincts.

[DittyDotDot]

Whether negative traits serve a character in the story or not, I doesn't take away from them being negative traits, for me. I'd say stubbornness is not a positive trait even though it has, at times, served me well in life. 

 

I generally find Dean to be rather judgey, somewhat hypocritical and rather bossy. I don't mind, I think if fits Dean, but they aren't actually positive traits. Same with Sam, I don't mind any of his negative traits as I think they serve the character well. It's what makes for interesting characters, to me. 

[Aeryn13]

 

I'm being entirely serious when I ask how would supposedly wanting to be "stronger than anyone" be interpreted as sympathetic?

 

I meant I sympathized with him having to hear it because that`s not something anyone would like to acknowledge about themselves. Also, in and of itself, it`s not the worst thing to be for a character to be in the beginning or middle of their journey. Numerous stories start off with protagonists that are arrogant and full of it. You just see that there is always more to them and the kinks in their character get ironed out over the course of the story.

 

For Sam, that has always been my main flaw, arrogance. Then in Season 4 it got dialed up so much, I thought for sure they were going to adress it in season 5. The speech with War played right into that theme. Then the entire narrative course-corrected and I got the exact opposite of what I wanted. Like you, I`m confident in my interpretation of Fallen Idols as supported by the narrative and am not changing my views on it. Well, and Suck Song was the anti-ending to me. If my problem with a character is them riding their Chosen One Sue high too much, the very last thing in the world is wanting to see the story conclude with a big validation of their Chosen One Sue-ness.

 

That`d be like the first Thor movie when after Thor gets banished to Earth, he conquers it with his hammer, then rides into Asgard, conquers that too and ends the movie like he started it, basically high-fiving everyone in his way to the throne room on how awesome he was. I would question what the hell I just watched and what the dreadful message of that has been.   

 

 

I didn't say that Sam showed control over the situation in "All  Hell..., pt1" I said that Sam showed leadership abilities, and he did.

 

And see, for me, if you`re duped the entire time, I don`t see it as an example of leadership. I`m not ragging on the character here as anyone could have been duped in such a situation but I would not have attributed leadership abilities to them either. Not from this situation at least. Even if they rallied some of the troups. It shows potential but doesn`t go all the way for me.

 

For example Cas had numerous tries at leadership and you had that one time where a whole bunch of angels loyally followed him so technically he was a leader back then but since suicide bombers were undermining efforts in his own staff, it just doesn`t count for me. Out of all the guys Cas has actually shown the least amount of eadership abilities in my eyes. Next would be Crowley who, King of Hell  lacks even the fucking will to lead. It`s just too much of a bother for me, meaning he is too lazy for leadership. I realize I have tough criteria to meet but that`s the way it is.

 

 

If after killing Dick Roman, being a kick ass survivor for a year in purgatory, gaining the trust of a vampire, being able to have the where-with-all to make it and find Castiel and get out of Purgatory, Dean still has almost no self-esteem, I really can't see how I'm supposed to believe he's ever going to get it.

 

I think the show won`t allow him to gain it on general principle but it didn`t surprise me that the things you named above didn`t make a dent. None of it was all that mind-blowing or presented as such. The show made it all such easily-forgotten small-fries, the character seeing those things the same way strikes me as very understandable.  

 

 

He gets women easily. He's good with machines, especially Baby, who he gets compliments about. He's smart and resourceful, and can think on the fly. He can eat like a pig and still get to look good. He's personable, so that he's able to fit in almost anywhere and people accept him there.

 

I don`t think he generally lacks self esteem in those areas. Despite a recent trend to act like Dean is old and not good-looking - do the writers have penis-envy or something? - the character seems to be aware that he is attractive to people. Also, I don`t think he looks at himself as a bad mechaniic or anything. 

 

It`s just that those are things that don`t mean that much to him. And again, that is more or less true for the show itself. Dean`s skills or accomplishments are not generally lauded yet we get lots of "dumb" jokes or "he is a killer" bruhaha. Which is what even the stupid nepotism duo believes about him. 

 

Sometimes he gets validation for nanny skills whole at the same time ragged on for being too much of a mother hen so even that is 50/50.  

 

Basically, I do believe the characters hold the views of himself that most of the writers do. They are not favourable so his are not favourable either. 

[mertensia]

See I was thinking more his trusting Gordon. Thinking PornSanta was Holdnecar.

Sam is also stuck much more than Dean is with trying to get his brother to play nicely with civilians. If anyone antagonizes the civilians odds are it's Dean.

[amensisterfriend]

I can never tell how unpopular this is, but I LOVE Crowley. Granted, he's gotten a bit played out by now, but throughout the middle seasons of the series he was literally one of my very favorite things about the show. During times when Dean's previously infectious energy and boyish zest for life were all but drowned beyond recognition in alcohol and nonstop angst and Sam was perpetually petulant and joyless, Crowley added some desperately needed humor and fun.

 

Actually, for a while now some of our villains have been a lot more enjoyable for me to spend time with than our never-not-depressed-and-depressing and increasingly morally deficient "heroes"...which I realize is a very UO :) I want to love Dean and Sam, but the writers have made it increasingly difficult for me. And I love flawed characters---but it's the number, severity and type of their flaws and the fact that by now they have sadly few strengths that makes the characters and show harder to love for me.   

[SueB]

Mark Shepard's response when I said "I love Crowley"

Mark: "Of course you do, why wouldn't you?"

 

The man is a Snark Ninja.

[DittyDotDot]

I used to love Crowley to bits, but seem to have grown weary of him lately. I just think, story-wise, they should've stabbed him in his face years ago. He's been recycling the same one-note beats for far too long. Although, there seems to be a potential for Crowley to be refreshing coming up in S11. Maybe those old feelings can still be rekindled? ;) 

 

Yeah, I know. But, lets be honest, if Lucy keeps putting that football out there, I'm probably going to kick it. Laws of average alone suggests there will be at least one time I don't end up on my ass, right?

Edited August 26, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

With a show that's about to go into its 11th season, I'm not sure if any opinion is truly "unpopular".

 

That being said, my UO is how much I love Rowena.  ;-)

[rue721]

With a show that's about to go into its 11th season, I'm not sure if any opinion is truly "unpopular".

 

That being said, my UO is how much I love Rowena.  ;-)

 

She's really grown on me, too. She's even performed a miracle and made me interested in Crowley again.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, Rowena grew on me too. I might actually be cheering for her to take over the world. 

[catrox14]

I love Ruth's portrayal of Rowena but I don't love Rowena at this point.  Sure she makes me laugh a lot  but she turned Cas into a freaking attack dog not caring if he died just like she didn't care if the hooker she turned into an attack dog died. She used the boys in the bar to manipulate Dean. She tried to kill Dean! She's pretty awful even if she's fun.  Crowley too.

[rue721]

Well of course she's evil. But that's part of her charm. LOL.

[AwesomO4000]

I meant I sympathized with him having to hear it because that`s not something anyone would like to acknowledge about themselves. Also, in and of itself, it`s not the worst thing to be for a character to be in the beginning or middle of their journey. Numerous stories start off with protagonists that are arrogant and full of it. You just see that there is always more to them and the kinks in their character get ironed out over the course of the story.

 

For Sam, that has always been my main flaw, arrogance. Then in Season 4 it got dialed up so much, I thought for sure they were going to adress it in season 5. The speech with War played right into that theme. Then the entire narrative course-corrected and I got the exact opposite of what I wanted. Like you, I`m confident in my interpretation of Fallen Idols as supported by the narrative and am not changing my views on it. Well, and Suck Song was the anti-ending to me. If my problem with a character is them riding their Chosen One Sue high too much, the very last thing in the world is wanting to see the story conclude with a big validation of their Chosen One Sue-ness.

 

That`d be like the first Thor movie when after Thor gets banished to Earth, he conquers it with his hammer, then rides into Asgard, conquers that too and ends the movie like he started it, basically high-fiving everyone in his way to the throne room on how awesome he was. I would question what the hell I just watched and what the dreadful message of that has been.  

 

But sometimes that's the way life is. Sometimes arrogance saves the day. I'm sure that there are a lot of successful people who are arrogant and maybe wouldn't be successful if they weren't, and I'm sure some have done some earth-shatteringly good things due to it like finding huge discoveries and curing diseases. Besides for me, the whole arrogant person gets his/her comeuppance and learns humility trope is not only tired, it's not always entirely believable if done in a somewhat pat manner - at least for me. Something really big needs to happen for such a change in personality. So, it didn't happen for Sam entirely in season 5 (I saw a good start). I had no problem with that, because then we had Sam in late season 6 and throughout season 7 where - for me - there was a definite change in his personality. For me, Sam did come out of hell more "humble." Sam was openly grateful to Dean, he compromised to Dean and listened to Dean's side more without a big fuss (and valued Dean's opinion), he tired to support and even mother-hen Dean a little, he kept Dean informed and tried to make sure not to keep things from him... and when he did keep things from Dean, it wasn't because he was trying to hide something he was doing that he knew Dean wouldn't like (Like his dealings with Ruby), it was because he didn't want Dean to have to go through any more shit worrying about him than Dean already was... And when Sam learned that that might actually cause a problem ("Hello, Cruel World"), he learned his lesson and no longer kept stuff from Dean and continued this open communication throughout the season.

 

In my opinion, we learned some of this through Sam's actions and some through what his hallucinations of Lucifer - which was Sam's brain - had to say. I personally loved this change and appreciated the subtly of how it was done rather than some huge, clothes rending, cheesy, and unbelievable "Oh, world, I've seen the error of my ways" speech crap, but apparently some didn't find this new Sam enjoyable or interesting, so instead, Carver decided to throw all this character growth out the window and go back to Sam from season 4. Thanks Carver, I didn't much like Sam from season 4, but thanks for playing.

 

And see, for me, if you`re duped the entire time, I don`t see it as an example of leadership. I`m not ragging on the character here as anyone could have been duped in such a situation but I would not have attributed leadership abilities to them either. Not from this situation at least. Even if they rallied some of the troups. It shows potential but doesn`t go all the way for me.

 

I think many leaders get duped now and then. That the potential is there is enough, and for me Sam doesn't need it much anyway. He seems perfectly fine being the back-up as far as I can see. In most fiction, I generally prefer the main back up guy or gal to the leader anyway, so Sam's lack of overall leadership skills don't lessen his character in my eyes. That Sam admits/accepts that he doesn't prefer to be the leader and is willing to defer to someone he sees as a better leader to me shows character that I admire, personally. Sometimes it's not easy to admit that you aren't the best at something, but instead do what you can do and try to do it well, and support the leader fully. A leader needs people to lead, and hopefully someone who supports them. I think Sam mostly does that support part just fine.

 

I don`t think he generally lacks self esteem in those areas. Despite a recent trend to act like Dean is old and not good-looking - do the writers have penis-envy or something? - the character seems to be aware that he is attractive to people. Also, I don`t think he looks at himself as a bad mechaniic or anything.

It`s just that those are things that don`t mean that much to him...

 

So exactly what does mean something to him? What does Dean want from himself that he hasn't already shown? This is the part that frustrates me. I don't know what it is that Dean wants from himself. Sometimes he seems to me like... I don't know, say a great musician who thinks he's crap just because he doesn't understand derivative equations or something. So what if you can't understand derivative equations, you do all this other stuff wonderfully, just forget about the stupid derivatives and do the music that you're good at and get enjoyment out of that, and stop angsting over it please. Other people would kill to be able to do what you do, so why isn't it enough for you, just...

 

Okay now with that example, I think that Dean is officially driving me crazy... and definitely not in a good way.

 

See I was thinking more his trusting Gordon. Thinking PornSanta was Holdnecar.

Sam is also stuck much more than Dean is with trying to get his brother to play nicely with civilians. If anyone antagonizes the civilians odds are it's Dean.

 

Gordon is an example of a time Dean was wrong, agreed - and I almost put that exception in my answer - but they were both wrong about PornSanta, and I guess that's one thing that makes this sometimes hard for me...

 

Whether negative traits serve a character in the story or not, I doesn't take away from them being negative traits, for me. I'd say stubbornness is not a positive trait even though it has, at times, served me well in life. 

 

I generally find Dean to be rather judgey, somewhat hypocritical and rather bossy. I don't mind, I think if fits Dean, but they aren't actually positive traits. Same with Sam, I don't mind any of his negative traits as I think they serve the character well. It's what makes for interesting characters, to me. 

 

All of this is true. It's just that not only do most of the other major characters - such as Sam and Castiel - also have these same faults, and when they express them, really bad stuff happens... they also have at least a half a dozen other potentially worse faults. I agree it makes them human (so to speak, since Cas is an angel), but it also tends to make Dean look like Teflon in comparison, and sometimes Teflon characters can be frustrating for me. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

Edited August 26, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

Well of course she's evil. But that's part of her charm. LOL.

 

I never said she wasn't charming. Crowley is charming too.  But I no longer love Crowley. Or love to hate him. I'm glad he's back to being evil Crowley (I hope) because the show needs them both as antagonists. But I don't like them.

[Aeryn13]

 

But sometimes that's the way life is. Sometimes arrogance saves the day. I'm sure that there are a lot of successful people who are arrogant and maybe wouldn't be successful if they weren't

 

That doesn`t mean I would find stories where exactly that is gleefully rubbed in my face to be enjoyable, sympathetic or likeable. Or that that would in any way endear those characters to me. Chances are good I would hate the hell out of such a narrative.as I did on SPN.

 

And if you raise up that character up at the expense of MY favourite character? Yeah, never going to like that.. Not to mention what did they do after the first time? They repeated it with the trials. 

 

 

In my opinion, we learned some of this through Sam's actions and some through what his hallucinations of Lucifer - which was Sam's brain - had to say.

 

From what I can remebers of Hallucifer, he seemed like such a Sam-fanboy, maybe in a darkly obssessed way but certainly all.about.Sam that "suddenly more humble" was certainly not the message I got from it.

 

But then I think Season 7 accomplished nothing for either character. I didn`t feel like Dean had a storyline in the slightest nor did I feel that Sam had some significant character change. I found both characters rather superflous and out of place in some other show that dealt with a very boring version of Leviathans.

 

 

So exactly what does mean something to him? What does Dean want from himself that he hasn't already shown?

 

I think what HE wants from himself is more success in protecting others, Sam and general others, from harm while not compromising his own morals too much.

 

Now what I want from or for him is very different. I don`t think he is a kilelr as he thinks. I understand why HE thinks that way because it gets reinforced to him. What I want is basically his very own shiny Chosen-storyline, complete with big hero moment. Whatever he has gotten before in the show, it has never fit the bill for me. 

Edited August 26, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

That doesn`t mean I would find stories where exactly that is gleefully rubbed in my face to be enjoyable, sympathetic or likeable. Or that that would in any way endear those characters to me. Chances are good I would hate the hell out of such a narrative.as I did on SPN.

 

And if you raise up that character up at the expense of MY favourite character? Yeah, never going to like that.. Not to mention what did they do after the first time? They repeated it with the trials.

 

Not what I saw at all. And the trials weren't even finished, so all I saw there was a big Sam failure. Oh, and Dean having to save his ungrateful, hypocritical ass. Again. Season 8 and 9 were not some big heroic story for Sam, in my opinion, especially since Sam abandoned Kevin and Dean, and then didn't even take the ball over the goal line with the trials, but fumbled on the 2 and let the other team get the ball. The basic goal seemed to be to throw the character under the bus, in my opinion. If season 8 was supposed to be an example of what these writers think is heroic - please don't make Sam the hero again, thank you.

 

From what I can remebers of Hallucifer, he seemed like such a Sam-fanboy, maybe in a darkly obssessed way but certainly all.about.

Well, a fan boy maybe in the way that Hannibal Lector is a fanboy of Will on Hannibal, but not exactly a fanboy you want to have. Hallucifer was often about how Sam failed. He was often making fun of what Sam was not seeing or of Sam's weaknesses.

 

But then I think Season 7 accomplished nothing for either character. I didn`t feel like Dean had a storyline in the slightest nor did I feel that Sam had some significant character change. I found both characters rather superflous and out of place in some other show that dealt with a very boring version of Leviathans.

 

I personally liked the leviathans. I liked Dick Roman. I liked Chet. I loved leviathan Sam and Dean. I even sort of liked Edgar. The season tone seemed to be darkly comedic and I personally enjoyed that. I loved Frank and I got to see more of Jodi Mills. The arc was slower, but I sort of liked a break from the recent trend of breaking the season up into two parts that don't always go together well - as with season 6, 8, and somewhat 9. Many of the one off episodes managed to fit in the leviathan arc well, and quite a few of them were sort of fun for me. I liked how the whole season tied together in one storyline. The Bobby arc was sort of a downer, but even it tied in with the rest - in that it was Dick Roman who killed Bobby. And then at the end they introduced the tablets and a potential great beginning for season 8.

 

As for character growth, I didn't see much resemblance between Sam from season 4 for example and Sam in season 7. If what happened at the end of "Slash Fiction" through "The Mentalists" for example had happened in season 4 or even season 1 for example, I think Sam's response would've been much different, and the compromises would've been strained at best, but I could be wrong about or being too optimistic in my interpretations.

 

I agree that Dean's character growth was a bit different, and not always positive, but it was good to see him take one goal and go with it to the point that he was doing his own research and making the main case a priority. Seeing Dean in revenge mode was a new thing, and I hoped that when he was done, he'd learn from the experience and what a toll it could take, but that sort of got dropped by the wayside in season 8 in favor of... whatever the hell that was supposed to be that made little sense to me anyway.

 

I also liked his evolving relationship with Castiel in that season. Letting Cas make the decision to try to fix his mistake with Sam and then being able to get him on board to stop the leviathans even though Cas wasn't always willing. That was some good leadership maneuvering there for him, in my opinion.

 

I think what HE wants from himself is more success in protecting others, Sam and general others, from harm while not compromising his own morals too much.

 

But Dean does/did that all the time. Season 4 was a great example. Then there was season 6 - big saving of Sam there, and entirely within keeping of his morals. The Gadreel thing he didn't seem all that wavering on, and in the end Sam agreed with him anyway on that, and Gadreel turned out to be a good thing anyway since it saved Sam, Castiel, Charlie, and helped Castiel to save the world. In season 10 Dean mostly stuck to his guns about not endangering the world to save himself, too. It was Sam who screwed up... so I'm still not seeing what it is that Dean finds so horrible about himself, and I guess that's where my disconnect is.

[catrox14]

 

It was Sam who screwed up... so I'm still not seeing what it is that Dean finds so horrible about himself, and I guess that's where my disconnect is.

 

If I might weigh in. I don't think Dean suffers a lack of self-esteem or lacks ego. I think he has a pretty healthy ego about his looks, his capabilities as a hunter, etc. But I'm not sure he loves himself. He beats himself up all the time because deep down he's never forgiven himself for things he believes he should have been able to change even if he really couldn't change them.

 

For example:

 

 

-- Couldn't save his Mommy at the age of 4 (in his messed up brain at 4). Intellectually I think he understands that was not a failing on his part, but emotionally I think he's a bit messed up from that still.  I mean he watched his mother burn in a fire.

-- Was held in contempt by John for leaving Sam alone when Dean as 9 or 10 in Something Wicked (setting a path that he let down the two people he never meant to let down.

-- Thought he should have stayed dead in Faith

-- failed John and Sammy because he could neither Save Sammy nor Kill Sammy in s2

-- In his desperation to save Sam he sold his soul ending up with him jump starting the Apocalypse.

-- I think he might desperately need to hear John tell him that he understands and that he wasn't a failure. Maybe that would help.

-- Even in s10 he said he just wants to do something right because he's tired of doing the wrong thing. 

 

I'm okay with him being messed up from all that, but I hope he can really find a way to really love himself as much as he loves other people. And it's not that Dean doesn't value himself and he keeps going but I don't think he's ever forgiven himself for what he believes he's failed at.  And IMO that's a pretty normal human foible. We can forgive others more easily than we can forgive ourselves.

[Mick Lady]

I can never tell how unpopular this is, but I LOVE Crowley. Granted, he's gotten a bit played out by now, but throughout the middle seasons of the series he was literally one of my very favorite things about the show. During times when Dean's previously infectious energy and boyish zest for life were all but drowned beyond recognition in alcohol and nonstop angst and Sam was perpetually petulant and joyless, Crowley added some desperately needed humor and fun.

 

Actually, for a while now some of our villains have been a lot more enjoyable for me to spend time with than our never-not-depressed-and-depressing and increasingly morally deficient "heroes"...which I realize is a very UO :) I want to love Dean and Sam, but the writers have made it increasingly difficult for me. And I love flawed characters---but it's the number, severity and type of their flaws and the fact that by now they have sadly few strengths that makes the characters and show harder to love for me.   

 

I'm right there with you amensisterfriend! My favorite T-shirt is the one that says, "You're Good, But I'm Crowley!"

[Mick Lady]

If I might weigh in. I don't think Dean suffers a lack of self-esteem or lacks ego. I think he has a pretty healthy ego about his looks, his capabilities as a hunter, etc. But I'm not sure he loves himself. He beats himself up all the time because deep down he's never forgiven himself for things he believes he should have been able to change even if he really couldn't change them.

 

For example:

 

 

-- Couldn't save his Mommy at the age of 4 (in his messed up brain at 4). Intellectually I think he understands that was not a failing on his part, but emotionally I think he's a bit messed up from that still.  I mean he watched his mother burn in a fire.

-- Was held in contempt by John for leaving Sam alone when Dean as 9 or 10 in Something Wicked (setting a path that he let down the two people he never meant to let down.

-- Thought he should have stayed dead in Faith

-- failed John and Sammy because he could neither Save Sammy nor Kill Sammy in s2

-- In his desperation to save Sam he sold his soul ending up with him jump starting the Apocalypse.

-- I think he might desperately need to hear John tell him that he understands and that he wasn't a failure. Maybe that would help.

-- Even in s10 he said he just wants to do something right because he's tired of doing the wrong thing. 

 

I'm okay with him being messed up from all that, but I hope he can really find a way to really love himself as much as he loves other people. And it's not that Dean doesn't value himself and he keeps going but I don't think he's ever forgiven himself for what he believes he's failed at.  And IMO that's a pretty normal human foible. We can forgive others more easily than we can forgive ourselves.

 

I agree. As Famine said to Dean, "Oh, you can smirk and joke and lie to your brother, lie to yourself, but not to me! I can see inside you, Dean. I can see how broken you are, how defeated. You can't win, and you know it. But you just keep fighting. Just... keep going through the motions. You're not hungry, Dean, because inside, you're already...dead."

 

It broke my heart.

[catrox14]

I never believed what Famine said because he had a reason to say it. Death is the only horseman I think told the truth because he had no agenda other than getting detached from Lucifer.  So for me saying Dean was dead inside was too much. I do think he's broken but not irrevocably so. 

[Omegamom]

I think what Famine said exaggerated a bit, but Dean was sincerely, severely broken and worn down at that point. He was being hounded by angels who didn't want *him*, but just wanted his body as a vessel. He had been shown the consequences of not agreeing (The End), and they were horrible. He had lost faith in Sam's ability to stave off Lucifer. He felt like the world was heading to Hell in a runaway freight train. He had *no hope* left.

Dean was in a very, very bad place by that episode, and didn't start to pull out until they got that Hail Mary pass from Gabriel about the rings.

"...inside, you're already dead..." Is an exaggeration, but it's a lot more succinct than "...inside your soul is so pounded that you're on the brink of giving up entirely..."

[catrox14]

That's a good way of looking at it.

My unpopular and bitter opinion is that I still resent Swan Song so much.  I hate the ending. I hate the Chuck is God vs Prophet crap. I hate that they had Dean go to Lisa like WTF?

 

BOO! okay I just needed to rant that

[7kstar]

I never believed what Famine said because he had a reason to say it. Death is the only horseman I think told the truth because he had no agenda other than getting detached from Lucifer.  So for me saying Dean was dead inside was too much. I do think he's broken but not irrevocably so. 

I think he did give a portion of truth and in a way that Dean could hear it.  Someone can believe they are totally bad and incapable of winning.  Your list shows all the ways that Dean lost, all the ways he made the wrong choice and even though he tries to do a course correction he still fails.

 

But this is why Dean is a hero.  He has every reason to quit.  Every reason to believe what Famine says but picks himself off one more time to try again.  He felt at the time it was the truth, IMO, because he was the only one Famine couldn't touch.  He just couldn't see how it could be a good thing and without someone else pointing it out, why should he?

 

I agree. As Famine said to Dean, "Oh, you can smirk and joke and lie to your brother, lie to yourself, but not to me! I can see inside you, Dean. I can see how broken you are, how defeated. You can't win, and you know it. But you just keep fighting. Just... keep going through the motions. You're not hungry, Dean, because inside, you're already...dead."

 

It broke my heart.

It shows that Dean believes this, and that is what broke my heart.  What he missed was even with that, he still picks himself off one more time and tries again.  It's why he is my favorite, it's why I love him even when the writers screw him up.  :)

[catrox14]

That's another good way to think of it 7kstar. I guess I took as being more of a condemnation of Dean vs just saying that he's a mess. I think because earlier Dean said "I'm not well adjusted, just well-fed" ....

 

Ugh. Now I have to rethink that episode.  Dammit.

[7kstar]

 

I think because earlier Dean said "I'm not well adjusted, just well-fed" ....

To me that is classic Dean redirect.  I love early Dean though.  I didn't see him as one-dimensional because I saw a guy that was so good at redirecting that no one including Sam could see through his smoke screen.  That is what I saw as they started adding the layers to his character.  It was unintentional at first and certainly not planned, but Jensen laid the groundwork. 

 

I think I can see that coming from a director/actor background.  It's how you read a blank script and look for those layers.  It's also why he always gets the emotional scenes and this is where Jared failed in his younger days. 

 

I see growth now, but Jared has grown with life experiences which is what happens with actors.  You really can't become a great actor until after you've experienced more life than a twenty year old.  Unless you were someone that experienced some really bad stuff when you were young...If that makes any sense.  :)

[catrox14]

 

You really can't become a great actor until after you've experienced more life than a twenty year old.  Unless you were someone that experienced some really bad stuff when you were young...If that makes any sense.  :)

 

How do you explain Jensen then? Even back in his Dark Angel days he had that whatever thing he has but he seems to have not gone through a ton of crap that I know of.

[7kstar]

How do you explain Jensen then? Even back in his Dark Angel days he had that whatever thing he has but he seems to have not gone through a ton of crap that I know of.

Jensen has one thing Jared didn't.  A father in the business.  Also in Dark Angel he some really good directors, plus he has a natural talent for it.  That combination gives him an edge.  He worked with some really strong actors on "Days of Our Lives"  However, he's even improved as he now understands what it is to be a father.  Many talented actors have a richness to them that soars after they hit their mid thirties.  Jensen is one of them.  It doesn't mean he doesn't have talent or have some good stuff when he was younger it just means notice how much more he has to use now.

 

An example I can give, is Michael Hurst explaining how it use to take him so much work to create a realistic crying scene.  However, once he became a father and had a near  miss of loosing his son, he could work it up in seconds.  I think that is what Jensen can do now.  Before he may have needed more time.  His soap days also is such a major training ground.  You have to get so much dialogue and emotions out with very little turn around and it is considered brutal in the acting world. 

 

For weaker actors, I see the growth showing up as they learn from life.  One example would be Farrah Fawcett.   She was just a pretty face but after being fed up with that image, she got to work.  The end result was amazing.  I think Jensen's is willing to listen, watch and learn.  It is his natural phase.  He did it in acting and now in directing.  Does that help?

Edited August 27, 2015 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

Yup! Thanks!

[Mick Lady]

I think he did give a portion of truth and in a way that Dean could hear it.  Someone can believe they are totally bad and incapable of winning.  Your list shows all the ways that Dean lost, all the ways he made the wrong choice and even though he tries to do a course correction he still fails.

 

But this is why Dean is a hero.  He has every reason to quit.  Every reason to believe what Famine says but picks himself off one more time to try again.  He felt at the time it was the truth, IMO, because he was the only one Famine couldn't touch.  He just couldn't see how it could be a good thing and without someone else pointing it out, why should he?

 

It shows that Dean believes this, and that is what broke my heart.  What he missed was even with that, he still picks himself off one more time and tries again.  It's why he is my favorite, it's why I love him even when the writers screw him up.  :)

 

That's exactly how I saw it. What Famine said was no big revelation to Dean, just reinforcement of what he already believed about himself. To Dean, it must have been devastating.

 

And you're right, he just keeps on going. That's the most impressive part of all this. Jensen's acting pulled this off, and I don't believe a lesser actor could do it as well. We see his self doubt constantly, and how it tears him up, but he never gives in to it!

[pawneerangers]

I just read this whole thread from start to finish! I have a few unpopular ones of my own that I'm kind of nervous to share but I'll take the plunge.

 

The fourth season is my favorite.  I think I understand why people here don't like it but I thought it was brilliant. I don't even think it's more depressing than most other seasons because almost every season can be depressing and it had a lot of really funny and clever parts too. 

 

I love Dean, Sam, Castiel and Bobby. All four have annoyed me a lot sometimes but I never reached the point of disliking them. I thought Bobby was a valuable part of the show and am still a little sad that he's not around. Maybe it's because I love the actor. 

 

I liked Anna and thought she had more chemistry with Dean than Lisa did. So did Bela! And I liked Bela too. I agree with the people who said they don't care about Jessica or Lisa. Such boring characters. 

 

Did most people here like the Ruby of the third season more than the fourth? I have the opposite opinion. I never liked Katie Cassidy and thought Jared's wife did a good job. I was glad to see the character go though. 

 

I love It's a Terrible Life more than What is and Never Should Be.  

 

Thank you for reading! I'm still new around here :) 

Edited September 2, 2015 by pawneerangers

[FlickChick]

Wow, pawneerangers, that's a lot of reading at one time! Welcome to our crazy site. :) Everyone's opinion is welcomed here.

 

Actually, I agree with many of your opinions, especially liking S4 a great deal because it actually had a fairly good progression of the mytharc. I thought Castiel was a wonderful addition to the cast, and I, too, have always liked Bobby. I think they did the character a terrible disservice by killing him off and then adding the "ghost" storyline.  I too, liked Bela and Genevieve as Ruby compared to Katie Cassidy. Although "It's a Terrible Life" is one of my favorite episodes, I think that "What Is..." is probably my favorite of the series because it gives us an early glimpse into Dean's psyche and RealSam's determination to save his brother. Also, the positioning of that episode right before Dean loses Sam drives home its meaning even more IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

Yes, welcome pawneerangers. And you should have no reservations on expressing your opinions - especially on this thread. It's the place to get ranty and where those who don't want to deal with the ranty elsewhere can ignore it if they wish. As you may have noticed, I take advantage of the opportunity frequently.

 

As for season 4, I think actually those who like it are in the majority on that one. I consider myself in the minority for not liking it all that much, and that's mostly - at least for me - because it did have the opportunity to be great, but they pushed just that bit too far that made it all go belly up for me. I guess seeing where it could've been really good just made me more angry at it. And I won't rehash why, since I already beat that horse, rang that bell, and then beat that horse again in this thread specifically.

 

Usually it's liking season 7 that's the unpopular opinion... it just happens that on this particular board, I'm in pretty good company on that one with some new "converts" (those who enjoyed it more on rewatch.)

[7kstar]

 Welcome pawneerangers.

 

I have some that others agree with and some that others hate.  I like Lisa and rewatch even more.  I don't find her boring.

 

I also liked Bela.  But I liked the first Ruby more than the 2nd.  I also blame the writing for some of those issues.  I never got tired of Bobby.

 

But it is always interesting to see other views.

 

I liked 4 but got tired of the let's create angst for angst sake to separate the boys.  But I also like many eps of season 4.  I'm sure at some point I'll watch it all again and some of my opinions will change and some will stay the same.  But I find the group is friendly and always inviting.  So pull up a chair and post when you want.  :)

[Mick Lady]

Welcome pawneerangers! Trust me, any site that would welcome me is one of the friendliest place on the net!

 

7kstar, Dot and Awesom04000 are some of the sweetest of them all. But be warned, Omegamom's stories will cause you to lose sleep!

 

But if you ever lose faith in the show, look for SueB, she'll talk you back from the ledge.

 

catrox14, on the other hand, is completely unhinged! I think we broke her of the fear biting thing though...so we have that going for us!

Edited September 3, 2015 by Mick Lady

[AwesomO4000]

7kstar, Dot and Awesom04000 are some of the sweetest of them all.

 

*rubs hands together* Ooh my plan is working perfectly... Oops, I mean thank you so much, you're so sweet, Mick Lady.

 

I kid, I kid ; ) ...

 

I know, I know... I'm supposed to be writing. What was I thinking? *hangs head*

Edited September 3, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Omegamom]

Hi, Pawneeragers, and welcome! Is that Pawnee, OK, or another state?

Only one of my stories is keep-you-up-at-night worthy.

I concur with MickLady's opinions, though catrox14 should be included in the "sweet" category, too.

I, too, loved S04 and S07, loved S04 Ruby, and was sad to see Bela die. And I really liked the second half of S06, which I think is another unpopular opinion...

[AwesomO4000]

And I really liked the second half of S06, which I think is another unpopular opinion...

 

Table for 2.

 

I often include the second half of season 6 along with season 7, because the ending of season 6 / beginning of season 7 was for me one of the stronger ending/beginning combinations on the show for me along the season 1/2 ending and beginning. Season 2 ended strong for me, but I thought season 3 didn't start out so strongly, or it might be up there also.

[Demented Daisy]

Welcome pawneerangers! Trust me, any site that would welcome me is one of the friendliest place on the net!

 

7kstar, Dot and Awesom04000 are some of the sweetest of them all. But be warned, Omegamom's stories will cause you to lose sleep!

 

But if you ever lose faith in the show, look for SueB, she'll talk you back from the ledge.

 

catrox14, on the other hand, is completely unhinged! I think we broke her of the fear biting thing though...so we have that going for us!

 

And then there's Demented Daisy.  I'd watch out for that one, if I were you.

 

*evil cackle*

[Aeryn13]

 

And I really liked the second half of S06, which I think is another unpopular opinion...

 

I wouldn`t say I liked it but I found it vastly better than the first half. Minus the Finale, that really sucked IMO.

 

My UO would also be that I liked the Mother of all Monsters as a villain. At least the concept of it was fine and some of the execution as well. If they gave the character more exploration and more of a cohesive plot, she would have been a fine Season-long villain. For me, she got the short stick when the story abruptly shifted to Cas being kinda the villain due to secretely working with Crowley. 

 

Which would also have been fine villain-wise. As would have been all the Alphas. But noone really got their due.

 

I guess Season 6 was overburdened with villains whereas Season 10, to its detriment, just totally lacked one Big Bad.    

[Mick Lady]

 

And then there's Demented Daisy.  I'd watch out for that one, if I were you.

 

Or, as I prefer to call her, "The Name That Should Not Be Spoken"

 

You'll find she's called Demented for a reason! The Daisy part is just to lull you into a false sense of security.