Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

Detective Joe West

Lisin

By Lisin
in The Flash

  • Reply
  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

Kromm

Kromm

I do find myself wondering if Detective West's career will be as screwed up as Detective Lance's is by having to deal with a vigilante (admittedly one who, as far as we know, won't be a killer though--there is that).

  • Love 2
Link to comment
radishcake

radishcake

I do find myself wondering if Detective West's career will be as screwed up as Detective Lance's is by having to deal with a vigilante (admittedly one who, as far as we know, won't be a killer though--there is that).

I think that will make a big difference @Kromm in how he treats help from his vigilante. Knowing that it's help catching a bad guy instead of killing the bad guy might make him more predisposed to being lenient when rules/laws are broken.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Kromm

Kromm

I think that will make a big difference @Kromm in how he treats help from his vigilante. Knowing that it's help catching a bad guy instead of killing the bad guy might make him more predisposed to being lenient when rules/laws are broken.

 

Even before Green Arrow (in the comics I mean) became recreated as a killer, there was a difference.  GA was typically an outlaw even in his own city, while Flash got a museum!

 

yjuJaU7.jpg

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

Also, it would be easier to say that the police don't need the help of a guy with arrows to fight basically guys with guns and drugs.

 

A super-fast guy's help might be handy against people who shoot cold rays, talking psychic gorillas, immortal geniuses, weather wizards, people with futuristic mirrors and other speedsters.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
thuganomics85

thuganomics85

After yesterday, I am so glad they got Jesse L. Martin in this role.  I think he will be like what Paul Blackthorne is to Quentin/Arrow: taking what could have been a typical, cliched character, and making him much more interesting and likable.  I'm already digging his relationship with Barry, and how he does seem to care for him.  I do hope they expand more on him and Iris, and just don't make him a typical "overprotective dad", but I'll be patient.

 

That said, as someone who has seen numerous Law & Order episodes, anytime he's at a crime scene, I do get Detective Green flashbacks.  I keep waiting for Briscoe/Jerry Orbach (RIP), to show up beside him, with a well-timed wisecrack.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Actionmage

Actionmage

What I am appreciating is that even with what Joe's seen and done on the job, he has a life away from work. Joe has a lightness that Quentin Lance doesn't.  (That is a scene I'd like- Joe and Quentin trading vigilante stories! At Iris' day gig.)

 

Another big difference is that Joe loves Barry and is protective.  Oliver was on Quentin's shit list before the Queen's Gambit happened. There is a trust and belief in Barry's innate goodness that Oliver has only recently earned with Quentin.  There is respect and trust between Oliver and Quentin, but love is not a component in their relationship. It will be interesting to see that tested, because it's going to be.

 

I hope the writers start backing off the Must-Protect-Iris-From-All-Dangers crap they are having Joe spew. I'm a mom, so I get it. As a parent, you want to wrap 'em in bubble wrap and not let them get hurt. Life, even in comic books, doesn't allow you that luxury.

 

On another note, may I get in line for the Joe West Comforting Shoulder Co-Op?  Jessie L. Martin is still very nice-lookin'. (Can we have the man karaoke in an episode? His voice is suuuuuper.)

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Kromm

Kromm

 I missed the pilot.  It seems like Joe and Wells have a history.  Was it explained there?

It's a recent one and has only to do with how Barry got transferred from a normal hospital to STAR Labs.

BTW: Watch the Pilot online--it's good enough to be worth any annoyance from using a computer screen to watch.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
Trini

Trini

It's so great to have a veteran actor on this show! I haven't seen much of Martin, but I'm really impressed with him here. The Father-Son relationship he has with Barry seems a lot more convincing, sincere, and real than others I've seen on TV.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Actionmage

Actionmage

Does Joe have a secret background as a circus performer? He has so many balls in the air, I worry for him.

 

* He lies to everyone about knowing The Flash

*He lies to Iris about not knowing who the Flash is and now about the existence of metahumans, even though she has interacted with a couple, not counting Barry.

*He is lying to his fellow officers, except Eddie, about what exactly they face on a more frequent basis- metahumans. He his equating his twentysomething grad student daughter and the entirety of Central City's police force, in that both need to be "protected".  The cops? Need to be protected.

*He's lying to his captain about Flash, metahumans, and whatever suspicions he has about Harrison Wells, a man who may be a danger to not only Barry, but to the city in general. (Despite what he wrote in his new notes on Nora's case, I don't think Joe is convinced that Harrison is not a viable suspect.)

*He's put the PD on the line with Mercury Labs, certain that the tachyon/tachyon harness was safe, even knowing that Barry was handed his butt. Dr. McGee didn't seem like a forgiving sort, especially after being blackmailed into letting it be used as bait.

*He now has Eddie  supposedly okay with lying to fellow cops about metahumans.

*Joe knows about the metahumans being kept in Harrison Wells' Underground for Bad Metahumans and has to know that quite a few basic laws are being broken.

*Joe is not telling Iris that the man who kicked the Flash's ass has threatened to kill her if he digs into Barry's mom's murder. (I don't think Iris would be down with that plan. She needs to be proactive in her own self-defense! Even if it fails! She'd at least be able to try to be safer.)

 

I love the character, despite his couple of big flaws--overprotecting his grown daughter from stinking life and his seemingly go-to response of lying to "protect". I love how Jesse L. Martin elevates Joe into someone I care for and root for, as opposed to a potentially very hateable character. While I wait for some Iris/Joe background, I am really enjoying that Joe is one of Barry's dads. 

 

I guess I am asking Santa for Joe to realize that these secrets aren't protective or helpful.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

^The sad thing is that this is not necessarily an exhaustive list.

 

Joe has withheld from Iris that Barry is in love-love with her, despite knowing it for years. (Although granted, it's not unreasonable for him to think that it's not his secret to tell). And related to that, he withheld talking to Barry about this love-love for his daughter.

 

Joe had withheld from Barry that RF had threatened him if he continued to investigate Nora Allen's murder.

 

Joe has withheld from Barry that he suspected Harrison was possibly a suspect in Nora Allen's murder.

 

Joe has (as far as we know) withheld the issue of whether RF could have been created 14 years ago, trusting Wells to give the only scientific opinion that such a thing was impossible because there was nothing like the particle accelerator yet.

 

There's probably other things I'm not remembering at the moment.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
ribboninthesky1

ribboninthesky1

Yeah, I think Jesse Martin is too good for this show, because there's not much I like about Joe.  He's easily the worst written character, and I have no idea why.  It's like the writers thought, "Joe is over-protective" and then proceeded to infuse that into 97.8% of his interactions with others, no matter how delusional or nonsensical he comes across.  I mean, really, lying to fellow cops, who have actually witnessed some of the bizarre phenomenon going on? In what context does that make any sense at all?      

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Actionmage

Actionmage

One scene I want is for Capt. Singh to read Joe the riot act about sitting on the "metahuman" thing and not stepping up to actually protect brother policemen and women. Some he may have gone through The Academy with and like!

 

(I also want Captain Singh to have a bit over the sandwich with Flash!Barry, but this is Joe's so I'll stop here.)

 

I understand keeping Barry's identity from others, just not Iris. Yet, if someone told Joe a fib, you know he'd go off on that person for something that he does on a daily basis. Maybe an upcoming case will clue Joe in to that point? ::crosses fingers::

Link to comment
ribboninthesky1

ribboninthesky1

(edited)

I think he has - in the most recent episode, Barry was pretty pissed that Joe kept Yellow Flash's threat from him. But that was more about him than Iris. I think he's also referenced it in relation to Daddy Allen's imprisonment. 

 

It would have been interesting for the show to go against trope, and have Joe and Barry go to the Chief with his secret.  They could have gone with the angle of "we've seen some freaky ish from some freaky people, so it's nice to have someone similarly...freaky on our side." Or even struggle with what it means to have a super-powered human on the force.  At least Joe wouldn't come off as such a hypocrite and control freak for no legitimate reason, and the police force might actually look competent. But nope, they traveled the "Secrets and Lies for the 'greater good'" path. Sigh.   

Edited by ribboninthesky1
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Trini

Trini

It would have been interesting for the show to go against trope, and have Joe and Barry go to the Chief with his secret.  They could have gone with the angle of "we've seen some freaky ish from some freaky people, so it's nice to have someone similarly...freaky on our side." Or even struggle with what it means to have a super-powered human on the force.  At least Joe wouldn't come off as such a hypocrite and control freak for no legitimate reason, and the police force might actually look competent.

 

I'm going to give the show a pass on this issue for now, because I feel the show is going to have to have the Flash become a public (if anonymous) "friend of the city" eventually. (Like Superman and Metropolis) The Flash isn't an in-the-shadows vigilante like Green Arrow.

 

If this is still going on in Season 2, it's going to make everyone look (more) silly.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
ribboninthesky1

ribboninthesky1

I'm going to give the show a pass on this issue for now, because I feel the show is going to have to have the Flash become a public (if anonymous) "friend of the city" eventually. (Like Superman and Metropolis) The Flash isn't an in-the-shadows vigilante like Green Arrow.

 

If this is still going on in Season 2, it's going to make everyone look (more) silly.

 

That's reasonable.  I was thinking more along the lines of the police force knowing who The Flash is, and leveraging him with villainous/misguided metahumans.  The public knowledge of The Flash wasn't yet on my radar.

Link to comment
Enero

Enero

(edited)

I'm finding that I like Joe West because of his relationship with Barry, but mostly because of Jesse L. Martin. He's such a likable actor. However, when I look beyond this, I find that Joe's behavior towards Iris somewhat mar his character.

 

He emotionally blackmailed her into dropping out of the police academy. His desire to protect her is understandable, but at times completely overbearing. Then this week we learn that when she was a kid he took her favorite toy when she broke his Duke Ellington album. It was reasonable for him to be angry about the album getting broken, but to take her favorite toy, a toy that she took comfort in while she slept, was just mean. I'm sure there was a better way to discipline her than this.

 

Again, I really like what they've done with his relationship with Barry, but his relationship with Iris leaves a lot to be desired. Though it's obvious they love each other. There does seem to be a disconnect there as evidenced by the way he treats her and how she doesn't confide in him about anything eta. Eddie, writing about the Flash, Barry's confession.

 

I'd like to know why he's so harsh with Iris, for lack of a better word. His relationship with Barry has way more openness and ease and perhaps that's because this is Barry/Flash's show, but Iris is his daughter. I'd think his relationship with her would at the very least be on par with or better than his relationship with Barry.

Edited by Enero
  • Love 5
Link to comment
phoenics

phoenics

That's a really good point about her dad and the punishment being overly harsh - I can't remember the whole scene, but did they make it so that he was just giving it back to her when she was moving? Like - he'd kept it from her the whole time?! I can see taking a child's toy when they do something wrong to show them actions have consequences - but doing it for a long period of time or keeping it forever sounds cruel.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers think about how these scenes play out.

Also - did Joe make her stop grad school? She was working on a dissertation - what happened with that? Was it Joe?

Link to comment
Enero

Enero

(edited)

That's a really good point about her dad and the punishment being overly harsh - I can't remember the whole scene, but did they make it so that he was just giving it back to her when she was moving? Like - he'd kept it from her the whole time?! I can see taking a child's toy when they do something wrong to show them actions have consequences - but doing it for a long period of time or keeping it forever sounds cruel.Sometimes I wonder if the writers think about how these scenes play out.Also - did Joe make her stop grad school? She was working on a dissertation - what happened with that? Was it Joe?

I got the impression that he'd kept it since he took it away from her. He asked when she'd stopped sleeping with the toy and she reminded him about how he took it away from her when she broke the Duke Ellington album. He then tried to give it back to her and her response was kind of like 'yeah thanks after umpteen years.' So I don't think he ever gave it back until this episode.

I honestly don't think the writers think about what they've written at all when it comes to these two. Because really, some of his lines and behavior towards Iris has shown a side to his character that oftentimes don't make sense and that I don't like.

Edited by Enero
  • Love 6
Link to comment
Oscirus

Oscirus

I honestly don't think the writers think about what they've written at all when it comes to these two. Because really, some of his lines and behavior towards Iris has shown a side to his character that oftentimes don't make sense and that I don't like.

 

Yea, I'm almost certain that toy scene was supposed to be played for laughs but all it came across to me as was a father who ignores his daughter so much that he often forgets his punishments against her.

 

Barry's middle name might as well be "go talk to Iris" as much as Joe tells him that.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
Actionmage

Actionmage

Then this week we learn that when she was a kid he took her favorite toy when she broke his Duke Ellington album. It was reasonable for him to be angry about the album getting broken, but to take her favorite toy, a toy that she took comfort in while she slept, was just mean. I'm sure there was a better way to discipline her than this.

 

As a parent, I did the take away the favorite toy du jour to show consequences. This was when my daughter was four or five. We happened to be in Germany ( Mr. Actionmage was stationed there). We were there for 2 and a half years.  I found, as we were packing to come back to the States, a closet with stuffed animals and dolls! Not full by any means, but quite a number. All of us had forgotten that they were there.  I personally was horrified ( the money! even in the early 90s) and embarrassed ( how could I forget this heap?). Granted, I was too soft and wouldn't have taken the one or two she needed to sleep with, but I am giving Joe some slack on this.

 

He probably intended to give back the cute octopus, but he simply forgot. Eventually, Iris did too. Not that she wouldn't like it back, but she moved on. Giving slack to Joe doesn't mean he's innocent, but it goes to his  pattern of withholding things for iris' own good.  By itself, the Little Green Octopus Recovery of '15 would be cute. Yet, after lying about Barry and Barry's feelings (lies of omission), somehow harassing her enough to get her to drop-out of the police academy, being negative about her blog, and keeping her in the dark (still) about the Reverse Flash and his threat to Iris' life? I can see why others aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Or, what Oscirus said too. *g*

  • Love 2
Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

To be fair, Joe has been pretty harsh with Barry too from time to time. We saw it early in the season (maybe the pilot?) when Joe was like, "It's about time you stopped dreaming about the impossible and accept reality -- including that your dad murdered your mom." 

 

I have to imagine that scenes like that probably played out through Barry's childhood on a lesser level.

 

There's a whole lot of cognitive dissonance because Jesse L. is such a charmer, but some of the actions Joe's taken are fundamentally irrational.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
phoenics

phoenics

To be fair, Joe has been pretty harsh with Barry too from time to time. We saw it early in the season (maybe the pilot?) when Joe was like, "It's about time you stopped dreaming about the impossible and accept reality -- including that your dad murdered your mom." 

 

I have to imagine that scenes like that probably played out through Barry's childhood on a lesser level.

 

There's a whole lot of cognitive dissonance because Jesse L. is such a charmer, but some of the actions Joe's taken are fundamentally irrational.

I think something really bad must have happened to Joe's wife, Iris' mom... Joe is extremely overprotective. I mean - I partly can see some of how a single parent (especially a dad) would struggle with how to raise two kids and might resort to overbearing authoritarianism as a coping mechanism...

But I still think something's up with how Iris' mom died.

Either that or the writers don't realize how overbearing and kinda mean they've written Joe as a father to Iris...

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Enero

Enero

Joe is like a dog with a bone on this Wells thing. I guess that's why he's a cop. I hope it doesn't get him seriously injured or killed.

I do wonder though why he hasn't put more together with regards to Wells. I thought it was too obvious that the minute he started questioning him about his past and doing a more thorough investigation of Barry's mom's death his house suddenly gets ransacked and the evidence on the case gets stolen. I'd think he'd think that's quite a coincidence.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
phoenics

phoenics

I wonder if Joe just tucked his suspicions away after Wells got his hind parts handed to him by Reverse Flash... but now after seeing this stuff, I wonder if his suspicions overwhelmed what he's seen with his eyes by teasing him with "the impossible"?

I think Joe is starting to mistrust his lying eyes when it comes to Wells... hence him falling back on detective work.

I did have an awful sense of foreboding at the end of the episode though when he said he wanted to go after him to Eddie.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
Actionmage

Actionmage

Okay, who's ass do I need to kick? Our Joe has gone from lovely if overbearingly protective dad into flat-out asshat.  Pulling Barry and Eddie into that pile of lying crap doesn't make Joe any less awful, Show. Stop it! Cease and desist.

 

Jesse L. Martin is doing as well as he can with the dogs breakfast he's given.

 

I did like Joe's "Even the Flash can get up cranky some mornings"  to Wells.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
VCRTracking

VCRTracking

I think the big reason I still like Joe is Jesse L. Martin. If anybody else had played him I would have been so pissed off by now but he sells it. Even if you don't agree with his choices you do see does care a lot about Iris and Barry.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
phoenics

phoenics

I think the big reason I still like Joe is Jesse L. Martin. If anybody else had played him I would have been so pissed off by now but he sells it. Even if you don't agree with his choices you do see does care a lot about Iris and Barry.

More Barry than Iris (though that is the writer's fault).

  • Love 1
Link to comment
zannej

zannej

I love Joe because of the performance by Jesse. The father/son moments he has with Barry are my favorites.

 

On the lying thing: Joe is a cop and cops are taught to lie to people. They lie to suspects to try to elicit confessions. They are taught to try to trick people to get info. And being taught to lie and being taught that people are liars makes them have difficulty trusting other people. Joe is a homicide cop so he has likely seen some pretty gruesome things and it would make him want to be more protective of his children (I'm counting Barry as one of them).

 

Keeping the secret from the rest of the police force could make some sense because there could be cops who can't be trusted or just knowing certain things can mean the police are obligated to share info. If they caught wind of the fact that Joe might know who the flash is and he's withholding that, it could mean his job. Now, obviously, the captain seems to have grown to like The Flash and the city views him as a hero-- but if anything bad went down or they knew about the secret metahuman prison, there would be hell to pay. By excluding other cops from the equation, it prevents them from having to potentially lie under oath and protects them. It also keeps Barry safer should someone have loose lips.

 

Keeping the secret from Iris was just bad writing IMO. Now, I think that its ok that Joe never mentioned Barry being in love with Iris because that was something the kids needed to sort out themselves.

 

On the toy thing, I can believe that Joe forgot to return the toy-- not out of any cruelty-- but because sometimes parents who are very busy forget things.

 

Joe is a flawed character who makes mistakes and bad decisions-- he comes off as human. But he also loves his family very much and wants to protect him the best way he knows how. Also, I love his laugh. :-)

 

And after seeing the clip of Jesse singing with Carlos and Rick, I want to see the show find a way to have them sing together on the show.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...