Iris West

[Sakura12]

I don't really think the race thing is issue with the Iris hate. There are plenty of white women that are hated, Laurel on Arrow, Beth, Andrea and Lori from the Walking Dead, Katrina on Sleepy Hollow. I think even if Iris was played by a white actress she would be treated the same way by the writers. They see the character as a only a love interest and are depending on "Because Comics" to do the heavy lifting for them. They aren't interested in making her more than that until she's need for plot. 

 

It's the writing that is the issue with the hate. And the fact that even us women forgive the men for more than the women. TV and Movies have been so male dominated for so long that we're used to men behaving the way they do and now that women are getting some more focus sadly we judge them harder then we should. Which is why I blame the writing or the acting for a characters failure. A character can always be better but its up to the writers and the actress to make that happen. CP is doing what she can, it's the writers that are doing her no favors. 

 

I'm Asian, want to make me a list of how many Asian actors are on tv with starring roles? Maggie Q was the first Asian woman to be the lead on show in America. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Sakura12

[Shanna]

It's the writing that is the issue with the hate. --- CP is doing what she can, it's the writers that are doing her no favors.

I'm Asian, want to make me a list of how many Asian actors are on tv with starring roles? Maggie Q was the first Asian woman to be the lead on show in America.

Completely agree about the writing.

For the second, I loved Nikita and Maggie is on stalker right now but it was so bad I had to give it up. Watch Malese on this show made me wonder how she would have done as Skye on aos.

[cynic]

Oh, I'm not saying that fandom only hates black females or that the flack Iris is getting is all race based. I'm just saying that black females are more likely to get the short end of the stick in the writers room and they're less likely to be cut any slack by fandom for it. Sure, there are white female characters that get hated on, but there are also plenty that are beloved by the fans and/or the writers. I can't really think of any non-warrior black females that are. Certainly there aren't any that were supporting characters that fans clamored to be turned into leads and get paired with the hero. I can't think of any black Felicity's or even black Caitlin's.

Sleepy Hollow is kind of a unique beast, since it started out as a two-hander with a black female lead that had lightning in a bottle chemistry with the white male lead. Usually a show like that is made for shippers (think Castle and Bones) and plenty did ship, but the writers pretty much nixed that and the anti-shipping started basically from the first episode too. Then, the writers then tried to elevate a white supporting character (who originally had been slated to die in the first season) to the forefront, sidelining Abbie. Unfortunately for them, Katrina is horribly written and the actress is flat out terrible. It still took almost an entire season, tanking ratings, bad reviews, fan revolt, and network interference to get TPTB to stop pushing her on us.

[In2You]

Oh, I'm not saying that fandom only hates black females or that the flack Iris is getting is all race based. I'm just saying that black females are more likely to get the short end of the stick in the writers room and they're less likely to be cut any slack by fandom for it. Sure, there are white female characters that get hated on, but there are also plenty that are beloved by the fans and/or the writers. I can't really think of any non-warrior black females that are. Certainly there aren't any that were supporting characters that fans clamored to be turned into leads and get paired with the hero. I can't think of any black Felicity's or even black Caitlin's.

 

I'd actually argue that Astrid on TTP was one of those rare occasions. Most fans online seemed to prefer her over Cara yet the writers continued to push Cara and would bait and switch with Astrid to get fans to tune in.

[cynic]

I'm Asian, want to make me a list of how many Asian actors are on tv with starring roles? Maggie Q was the first Asian woman to be the lead on show in America.

Yes, Asians experience racism also and there are some of the same, some slightly different concerns. For example, I'd say black males have any easier time as romantic figures than Asian males on tv. I'm not sure what that has to do with Iris West though. Btw, I'm half Korean and Margaret Cho had her own show in the 90's, but I don't think she was the first one either. (Not saying there are plenty of shows with Asian leads, just saying Maggie Q wasn't the first. Loved her and Nikita though!)

Edited February 11, 2015 by cynic

[Sakura12]

My point was that it's not only black women that are treated as non-entities on tv. Women of all races are treated like that on tv.

 

The warrior women types are popular with every race as well. That's what most of us want to see, women kicking ass alongside the men.  Peggy Carter, Michonne, Abbie Mills, Nikita, Melinda May all popular because of they are badass. What race they are doesn't matter. 

 

As for Iris, she's being compared to Laurel who is white and written by the same people. It's writing, not race.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Sakura12

[Shanna]

I can't think of any black Felicity's or even black Caitlin's.

It still took almost an entire season, tanking ratings, bad reviews, fan revolt, and network interference to get TPTB to stop pushing her on us.

Felicitys are pretty rare in general. I'm going to be thinking this afternoon of anyone I can compare her to...

Has sleepy hollow gotten back to form now? I haven't watched since Christmas break out of sheer irritation with Katrina and headless.

Thankfully cp is a pleasant actress. I just want the show to do some tweaking to make her journalism thing work and lay off the hacky romance stuff and let it develop naturally.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Shanna

[venusnv80]

Race can always be able to pushed to the side unless there is a blatant email or blatant show of disrespect by the powers that be. There's a reason why people are saying that Iris is another Bonnie Bennett. What I am curious about is how many black female characters (because that's what Iris is) is pushed to the front of a network show with a predominately white cast currently? How many of them are the love interest to the lead male? I'm going to think really hard about this...I may turn to dust before I come up with at least 3. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by venusnv80

[FurryFury]

Felicitys are pretty rare in general. I'm going to be thinking this afternoon of anyone I can compare her to...

 

Never watched Smallville, but I've seen her compared to Chloe a bunch of times. And I'm not sure which of her qualities do you mean. A fan-favorite character gradually getting more prominence? Fan preferred couple becoming canon? A tech savvy girl helper? I'm pretty sure all of these things have happened lots of times on TV. 

 

My point was that it's not only black women that are treated as non-entities on tv. Women of all races are treated like that on tv.

 

Exactly. And comic book media is a big offender, especially DC TV shows. Arrow killed off 3 badass women last year, three! And among those who are left, well, one is a love interest, another is an ex-love interest and the third is the hero's little sister who gets brainwashed by her evil dad (two of the killed were also ex-love interests, but still). Flash sets up both women in the cast as potential love interests for the hero. And I won't even start about Gotham and the horror that is Barbara Gordon.

 

I don't care about race. Give me black heroines, white, asian, latina, native american - I just want them to be more than damsels in distress and love interests. I want them to be as strong and capable as male characters and given the same treatment as them.

Edited February 11, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

A couple of the cop shows have a spunky, female IT genius.

 

For me Chloe Sullivan from Smallville was first. That's why I'm not that enamored with Felicity. I like her but she's not enough for me to continue watching the mess that Arrow has become, I also don't ship Olicity so there is really nothing for me on that show.

 

I just want women in general to be treated better on tv. There are very few shows that write women well, most of the time it's the ones written by women. As for shows pushing the white person aside for the POC's, Orange is the Black comes to mind, they pushed the white girl aside to focus more on the other characters of all races. 

 

I want Iris treated better and written better, but I still think if she were played by a white actress she would still be pushed aside for the male characters. 

[Shanna]

Never watched Smallville, but I've seen her compared to Chloe a bunch of times. And I'm not sure which of her qualities do you mean. A fan-favorite character gradually getting more prominence? Fan preferred couple becoming canon? A tech savvy girl helper? I'm pretty sure all of these things have happened lots of times on TV. .

I don't know, All of the above combined maybe? I think that is sort of unique. I watched smallville for a while but eventually gave up on it and Chloe IMO started in the well defined role of BFF, with a crush on the friend that was destined not to be returned. That is basically the way they wrote Barry, except he's the lead so he will eventually get what he wants. But Chloe was always meant to have a role, feleciity was more surprising. Her arc was really interesting and I do think unique. I can think of lots of quirky it side characters but not many that trend into leads.

Interesting talking about that show, iris is in the Clark role now of uninterested BFF. I don't know what to do with that. ( all of this leaves out the real love of Clark's life - lex)

[cynic]

Felicitys are pretty rare in general. I'm going to be thinking this afternoon of anyone I can compare her to...

Has sleepy hollow gotten back to form now? I haven't watched since Christmas break out of sheer irritation with Katrina and headless.

Thankfully cp is a pleasant actress. I just want the show to do some tweaking to make her journalism thing work and lay off the hacky romance stuff and let it develop naturally.

Eh. It's had some obvious tweaking, but I'm not sure they really can fix it. Katrina isn't the only problem with the show now. In their push to make her story more prevalent, the writers actually ditched the main premise (the four horseman apocalypse) and killed off the main villain after only 1.5 seasons. The whole thing feels kind of aimless now. The last two episodes did focus more on Ichabod and Abbie though. We'll see.

I'm not fond of intrepid reporter stories or characters, so I'm pretty disappointed that this is the direction they took Iris, especially since they haven't made her particularly good at it so far. I do think Candice Patton has been doing a good job with what she's been given though. I don't understand the comments on other sites saying she has no appeal as an actress or a character and that she's unattractive to boot.

---------------

As for race and gender discussions, I think there are commonalities and differences in the nuances as well as intersectionality that are best discussed in the Race or Gender threads. I mentioned black females specifically, because Iris is one and those particular issues and tropes are relevant to her. In my opinion, it matters. People are free to ignore race and racism, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have consequences.

[phoenics]

I mentioned black females specifically, because Iris is one and those particular issues and tropes are relevant to her. In my opinion, it matters. People are free to ignore race and racism, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have consequences.

Thank you - I completely agree.

[peachmangosteen]

I feel like there's a little too much of "If you don't like Iris or if you don't ship Barry/Iris then you're racist no ifs ands or butts about it.' (Not here, but on Tumblr and Twitter). IMO there are legitimate reasons to not like Iris and people can not ship Barry/Iris for reasons that have nothing to do with Iris' race. Again, that's not to say there aren't people who are basing their opinions on race, but I feel like the Barry/Iris fandom is trying to make it out like all the Caitlin/Barry shippers are racist idiots and that's kinda gross IMO.

 

On a more positive if very shallow note, at least Iris looked amazing in the last episode. The wardrobe department is treating her well, even if the writers aren't!

Edited February 11, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[bluebonnet]

I think the fandom on this site has been very fair in their criticism of the Iris character and critique has not at all been a product of racism.  The way people talk about the character is important.  CP is overwhelmingly positively received.  It's noted time and again that she is a good actress, that she has charisma.  The critique for Iris focuses on the character rather than on CP herself.  Compare this to Laurel/Katie Cassidy.  Entering into the Laurel thread in the Arrow forum is like entering into the deepest, darkest halls of some great misogyny club.  Commentary on Laurel is more often personal attacks on KC, attacks well beyond discussion of acting skills.  It's all thinly veiled hatred of a woman, or at least hatred of a certain type of woman.  

 

Candice Patton isn't receiving that sort of vitriol.  The majority of commentary here is anger directed at the writers for their part in marginalizing the Iris character.  What I'm seeing are a group of people who want a good representation of a woman, especially a woman of color, on a popular tv show and are angry that TPTB are screwing it up.  There may be a very small minority who are motivated by racism, but it's very unfair and dishonest to claim that the fandom here is attacking the character because she's a woman of color.  

[cynic]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fandom here is hating on her based on race. I personally believe the level of discussion here (and on TwoP sniff) to be generally high and thoughtful. That's not true on other sites and there has been some obvious racism and some not so obvious that I've encountered.

That's not to say all of fandom or all Iris haters or all Caitlin fans or all white people or whatever are racist, but racism has impacted black female characters disproportionately in genre shows and continues to do so.

I would hope that just like people shouldn't have knee jerk reactions thinking everything is racist, people shouldn't also have knee jerk reactions denying the possibility of racism and also shouldn't immediately become defensive as if they are being personally called racist simply because someone is pointing out racism exists.

[driedfruit]

I'm not sure we're anywhere near Lauriver #2.  Fans were asking that to end and to kick Laurel off the show as early as the second episode of Arrow, which is just not something I'm seeing here.

 

It's not comparable. Lauriver is a rare case where two actors looked like they hated being in the same scene from their first few interactions. Writing can't salvage such a disaster of chemistry. While some don't like WestAllen and likely never will, I haven't seen much hate. If anything, they're very well received on social media with an ever growing fanbase.

 

I think it might be too late by then.

 

Nah. The major issues surrounding Iris' character aren't things that make her hated as a character, but rather things like she's not getting enough development/screentime/backstory... and all that can be easily remedied over the course of the series. Besides, Candice is fantastic and extremely popular in the fandom, which is rare for a CW actress.

Edited February 12, 2015 by driedfruit

[wayne67]

Nah. The major issues surrounding Iris' character aren't things that make her hated as a character, but rather things like she's not getting enough development/screentime/backstory... and all that can be easily remedied over the course of the series. Besides, Candice is fantastic and extremely popular in the fandom, which is rare for a CW actress.

 

So far all I'm getting from Iris is that she's a mediocre wannabe reporter and is destined to be with the main character.  Neither of which interests me. I don't hate her, I just don't find anything exciting about her yet.

 

I can't help thinking of Galavant the tv show where the squire for the knight got basically half an episode in the THIRD Episode for his character development and that was a musical comedy parodying the medieval genre.

 

It's been 10 hours at least of this show and I still don't know much about Iris and I'm not invested in her at all and I want to be. I want to understand why Barry has loved her forever and so far all I'm getting is hormones or psychological transferrance . She has no other friends other than Barry, she has a somewhat strained relationship with her father because Barry seems to hog all his attention, her bf is often offscreen and her hobby tangentially revolves around Barry's alterego.

 

Half of my issues with Iris could be solved if she was A) a competent journalist or B) had a friend who she could talk about her feelings, her backstory or anything, she feels way off in the distance and I'm like meh.

[driedfruit]

Half of my issues with Iris could be solved if she was A) a competent journalist or B) had a friend who she could talk about her feelings, her backstory or anything, she feels way off in the distance and I'm like meh.

 

I'm a fan and I have those same issues. And the writers are getting a lot of backlash, most of which is from her fans who expect more given the wealth of stories they could be writing for Iris.

[bluebonnet]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fandom here is hating on her based on race. I personally believe the level of discussion here (and on TwoP sniff) to be generally high and thoughtful. That's not true on other sites and there has been some obvious racism and some not so obvious that I've encountered.

That's not to say all of fandom or all Iris haters or all Caitlin fans or all white people or whatever are racist, but racism has impacted black female characters disproportionately in genre shows and continues to do so.

I would hope that just like people shouldn't have knee jerk reactions thinking everything is racist, people shouldn't also have knee jerk reactions denying the possibility of racism and also shouldn't immediately become defensive as if they are being personally called racist simply because someone is pointing out racism exists.

There are several posters in this thread saying that people are criticizing Iris based on her race.  Granted, these same people are also discussing the fandom on tumblr, which is laughable considering tumblr is hate speech central for the internet.  

 

This isn't a knee jerk reaction denying the possibility of racism here on this site.  As a woman of color, I know intimately how much racism exists.  It's just unfair for posters to be citing racism as the reason for criticism of this specific character when the discussion is anything but.  In fact, I find this sort of behavior disgusting as it devalues real instances of racism.  

Edited February 12, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Shanna]

I call em like I see em on these shows and I'm not going to like someone because I am supposed to because of their race, or their sex, or canon or whatever else. And I resent shadowy illusions that I don't like someone because of reasons other than what I have stated. If I can't stand laurel, I'm not going to force myself to like her because of sisterhood or something. That stuff is tiresome.

Write me good characters and cast good actors. That's not asking too much is it? Candice is cute and charming, although I still mostly am seeing friend chemistry with Barry I think they could fix that if they fix the writing.

I think they seriously dropped the ball on this journalism story this week. I mean, I really didn't want to see 'iris intrepid girl reporter' but since that's what we are doing at least do it well. I never questioned that Lois didn't have her shit together on the journalism front but iris just seems to be floating around doing whatever. And if that's what you're going for fine but don't expect me to buy it when you try to also tell me she's the bestest ever and had wanted it for so long. Pick one of those and write the hell out of it. I was already sort of sideyeing this story but this week she did no journalism at all and their was an actual guy floating around on fire, a nuclear explosion and there was nothing at all about the picture she took last week.

[In2You]

Yes, Asians experience racism also and there are some of the same, some slightly different concerns. For example, I'd say black males have any easier time as romantic figures than Asian males on tv. I'm not sure what that has to do with Iris West though. Btw, I'm half Korean and Margaret Cho had her own show in the 90's, but I don't think she was the first one either. (Not saying there are plenty of shows with Asian leads, just saying Maggie Q wasn't the first. Loved her and Nikita though!)

I keep reading that Candice is half Asian as well

[phoenics]

It seems kinda unfair to compare Iris to Lois Lane in terms of reporting right now - unless you want to discuss Smallville Lois' arc and how she started off wanting nothing to do with reporting (Chloe was written more like the Lois Lane we all knew from the comics for most of that show) and actually was kinda a mess really in terms of characterization. But the character was given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to grow into her role on the show.

I just don't think Iris will be given the same consideration - fandom seems more quick to rip apart a character nowadays - I think it's gotten worse since the Laurel/Lauriver stuff. And Iris has been fighting double standards all season. Before "The Flash is Born" even aired, CP's Iris was getting impaled with criticism calling her a damsel in distress... and in a later episode, one critic even blasted her for not shooting Clock King fast enough (literally, he did that). The criticism was out of order for what aired and full of bias against Iris as a character. But then we have Caitlin literally in multiple damsel in distress (and sorry, but yelling for someone not to come rescue you does not negate that you are a damsel and did NOTHING to save yourself) and there is literally NO criticism even close to the criticism Iris got.

You could chalk a lot of that up to shipping - but given how predisposed this particular critic seemed to be to hate Iris from the very beginning, I do not believe it was just shipping.

About racism - none of us are saying that anyone here has been racist - I certainly haven't. But I have seem some pretty ugly reactions to CP being cast as Iris and some really, really ugly and racist statements coming out of fandom (on tumblr, twitter, and FB) against her. Some of it is overt and some of it is covert (seemingly internalized) racism. As many of us have stated over and over again, not all fans who are hyper critical of Iris and Westallen are racist - not even most are - but it would be naive and harmful to sit and pretend as if racism doesn't play a role in how CP's Iris is perceived, how she's marginalized on the show (and how problematic that is from an optic perspective and from a negative trope perspective).

I've seen how fandom has treated black women characters (and sorry, it's more severe than how WoC in general are treated - not to say that non-black WoC are treated well, but there's "extra" when it comes to black women characters - let's not pretend that's not true) and the arguments all have common patterns. Dog whistling is easy to pick up when you've seen it over and over and over again.

Again - not saying that's what is happening here. Most of the comments about racism were in response to twitter comments (if you go back and look in this thread, you'll see the responses w.r.t. racism were directed at comments that the Iris hate was pretty bad there), not PTV comments.

Part of the reason Iris fans are so nervous is because they KNOW the impact of racism (overt and covert) and they also know that black female characters do NOT get the same benefit of the doubt that non-black characters get. Which means when we see that Iris is being written poorly, it stirs a panic and fear that the character will be 1) killed off or 2) written off or 3) received by fandom overall in such a poor way that the writers/showrunners then can take the "out" and write/kill off the character and go back to the status quo.

There are so many examples where this has happened and as fans sometimes we feel we have to be extra vigilant and on the defense for black female characters because it's simply fact that some of the criticism for those characters comes from racism. Not all, clearly, but that's there. When you add in poor writing and have another shipping pairing breathing down the neck of the black female character, it's a recipe for disaster in an industry that simply has NEVER been kind to black female characters.

The Shonda Rhymes era has changed some of this - but not nearly all. Again - Sleepy Hollow is a TEXTBOOK example of what happens when a show runner gets caught up in what he believes a show "should" look like and makes changes to it, disregarding what made the show popular in the first place. Do you honestly think that if fandom hated on NB's Abbie on Sleepy Hollow the way the entire fandom hates on KW's Katia that the show runners would be bending over backwards to give the character so many chances?

That's what is driving - at least for me - a lot of the fear and hand wringing you are seeing expressed here. It just feels like Iris needs to be perfect to escape being killed off/written off or "disappeared" from the show. Even when she had more screen time and more agency, she was still dragged constantly. Now that she's being written with NO pov and written poorly, the character just doesn't stand a chance.

Edited February 12, 2015 by phoenics

[wayne67]

You know what I find most interesting about this conversation is that the Iris thread is 6 pages long and the Barry thread only has 20 replies so far.

 

She may not be getting her own plot or backstory or characterisation but she at least is getting talked about.

 

Poor Barry being the good guy is so dull .

 

As long as Iris doesn't become the next Lana Lang I'll be happy. There's nothing more frustrating than a character becoming an expert in a dozen different things that make no sense for their background.

[Miss Dee]

And she's not a journalist because a barn door hit her on the head. Good enough for me.

[Trini]

You know what I find most interesting about this conversation is that the Iris thread is 6 pages long and the Barry thread only has 20 replies so far.

I'd love more discussion about Barry. :)

[FurryFury]

You know what I find most interesting about this conversation is that the Iris thread is 6 pages long and the Barry thread only has 20 replies so far.

She may not be getting her own plot or backstory or characterisation but she at least is getting talked about.

 

Look at the size of Laurel's thread. Problematic characters (and yes, Iris is problematic right now - because the writers clearly don't know what to do with her and how to develop her) always get people talking. And she is the main love interest, to boot, so it automatically means discussing shipping stuff.

 

As long as Iris doesn't become the next Lana Lang I'll be happy. There's nothing more frustrating than a character becoming an expert in a dozen different things that make no sense for their background.

 

I'd love if the writers found one thing she's really good at, though, because right now, there isn't any (sadly). And I'd prefer it not be journalism, or at least if it didn't happen overnight.

[wayne67]

Look at the size of Laurel's thread. Problematic characters (and yes, Iris is problematic right now - because the writers clearly don't know what to do with her and how to develop her) always get people talking. And she is the main love interest, to boot, so it automatically means discussing shipping stuff.

 

I'd love if the writers found one thing she's really good at, though, because right now, there isn't any (sadly). And I'd prefer it not be journalism, or at least if it didn't happen overnight.

 

I just had a quick look at the Laurel thread over in Arrow and wow, she has 43 more pages than the main character. That's kind of hilarious. I stopped watched Arrow at the start of season 3 or season 2 whenever Summer Glau first showed up.

 

Wasn't Iris studying a diploma/Masters? in something ? She could be good at that, whatever that was. 

 

I can't get behind Iris's journalism because of the way they introduced it in the second episode where Iris invited Barry around so she didn't have to do her own research and then just went "I'll just make something up" combined with her lack of curiosity about who Flash is or how he got super powers and I just can't. Seriously the Flash has super powers and no curiosity at all? The whole journalism sub plot/characterisation has been clumsy in its execution.

 

On a barely related note ... Has Eddie disappeared into a black hole ? I can't even remember the last episode he was in.

[FurryFury]

He was in the latest episode, I think, but I can't remember what he was doing.

 

I can't get behind Iris's journalism because of the way they introduced it in the second episode where Iris invited Barry around so she didn't have to do her own research and then just went "I'll just make something up" combined with her lack of curiosity about who Flash is or how he got super powers and I just can't. Seriously the Flash has super powers and no curiosity at all? The whole journalism sub plot/characterisation has been clumsy in its execution.

 

Absolutely. I think she was a psychology grad student (in her original casting call or character description), but it was never stated on the show, so they've probably dropped it altogether. I can't imagine how it could be useful to the plot, though. Couldn't they make her study criminology or something?

[wayne67]

Absolutely. I think she was a psychology grad student (in her original casting call or character description), but it was never stated on the show, so they've probably dropped it altogether. I can't imagine how it could be useful to the plot, though. Couldn't they make her study criminology or something?

 

Well Team Flash could use her to create psychological profiles of their metahumans to find out their hideouts, their next targets and their threat levels to the community. That would be a way to integrate her into the A plot at least some of the time and at other points she could be at school. That's another problem I have with Iris, is she still at school while also having a full time job as a reporter ?

 

Or she could treat the prisoners for their various psychosis's or personality flaws. In the case of Peekaboo perhaps try and treat her for all the psychological issues inherent in being locked in a mirrored room.

 

There's lots of things they could do with Iris, she could also give Barry boxing lessons like she did when she was 12, maybe she could even talk about the psychological ramifications of a messiah complex.

 

They don't need to make her a reporter in the first season because so far none of the reporting sub plots had anything to do with any of the main plots. It's not like they're actively trying to hide the information from her for low stakes drama. It's just Iris not noticing that Flash looks sort of similar to her BFF in the facial and body type region and should even sound somewhat like him. *sigh*

 

I could go on but I'm depressing myself about the wasted story potential of Iris.

[driedfruit]

Look at the size of Laurel's thread. Problematic characters (and yes, Iris is problematic right now - because the writers clearly don't know what to do with her and how to develop her) always get people talking.

 

Problematic? Please, more like rampant misogyny. 

 

Iris is under-developed in a series that's super cheesy and doesn't do a great job with character development to begin with. Even if she functions as solely a love interest, that warrants disinterest, not hate. And certainly not pages and pages of it. 

 

The way Laurel is treated in the Arrow fandom has less to do with the character than with the fandom. I don't even like her and I can't see anything that warrants the bashing she gets. It's practically comical how the fandom tries to pass her treatment off as problems with the writing.

 

And how about poorly written male characters? Where are their massive hate threads?

Edited February 12, 2015 by driedfruit

[FurryFury]

But people do hate characters because of the writing. Why else would they do it? It doesn't make any sense. Iris is problematic because right now, she is treated as an unimportant love interest destined to be with the hero without any real personality, goals and life on her own. She gets 1 minute screentime per episode and no real development.

 

Laurel was written inconsistently and overall badly. There are lots of examples, I won't reiterate them, they've been posted a 1000 times already. The actress also isn't good. I do think the fandom may go a bit overboard at times, but this character really, really makes the show worse and the writers don't care. What else can the fans do except rage? It happens all the time with badly written characters, especially connected with the main character. Lana Lang was hated just as much, for instance. And it happens to male characters as well.

 

Even if she functions as solely a love interest, that warrants disinterest, not hate. And certainly not pages and pages of it.

 

I haven't seen any hate on this forum. If you look for hate on Twitter or Tumblr, well, you'll find hate for basically any show and any character. Flash/Arrow fandoms aren't really that vitriolic, if you compare them to some others.

 

Oh, and as a feminist, I take issue with calling any dislike of a female character "rampant misogyny". Female characters should be treated the same way as male. If they aren't written well enough, I reserve the right to dislike them.

Edited February 12, 2015 by FurryFury

[driedfruit]

But people do hate characters because of the writing. Why else would they do it? It doesn't make any sense. Iris is problematic because right now, she is treated as an unimportant love interest destined to be with the hero without any real personality, goals and life on her own. She gets 1 minute screentime per episode and no real development.

 

Nah, people will find any reason to hate female characters (happens with the well written ones too). If they're love interests then they have to meet some standard of excellence that doesn't exist for any other characters. For example, Eddie is hardly being well written and his screentime has been cut to bits, why aren't you in his thread complaining about him? And how is love interest such a terrible role to be reduced to, but concerned father is okay? Characters all fulfill some role, most of it cliche, some will grow and develop over the series, some won't. But singling out female love interests to hate is a trend with very obvious roots. 

 

Laurel was written inconsistently and overall badly. There are lots of examples, I won't reiterate them, they've been posted a 1000 times already. The actress also isn't good. I do think the fandom may go a bit overboard at times, but this character really, really makes the show worse and the writers don't care. What else can the fans do except rage? It happens all the time with badly written characters, especially connected with the main character. Lana Lang was hated just as much, for instance. And it happens to male characters as well.

 

 

I don't buy how Laurel makes the show worse (she barely gets any screentime ffs). And the worst actor on that show is Stephan. If people can forgive him, they shouldn't be complaining about Katie. 

 

Oh, and as a feminist, I take issue with calling any dislike of a female character "rampant misogyny". Female characters should be treated the same way as male. If they aren't written well enough, I reserve the right to dislike them.

 

 

Except female characters aren't treated like male characters. Where are the massive hate threads for poorly written male characters? I'm a feminist too, and hanging around fandom reminds me of how much we need feminism. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by driedfruit

[FurryFury]

Nah, people will find any reason to hate female characters.

 

Then why didn't the watchers of Arrow hate Sara, Moira, Shado and Felicity? And again, there are male prominent male characters who got hate just for being badly-written love interests (or sometimes, not even love interests).

 

Eddie is hardly being written well and his screentime has been cut out, why aren't you in his thread complaining about him?

 

Because he doesn't matter for the show. Iris does. We are constantly told how Barry loves her - hell, we were told that in his very first appearance! Her actress is second billed. And there are only two women of the show - I want them both to be treated well. I'm not sure why you seem to think that critique of a character equals hate. I don't want Iris off the show or anything. I want her to be fixed. There was one single moment during the show when I felt there was something deeper in her than a shallowly written love interest, but it was gone the next episode. I want that feeling to come back. I want complex and interesting female character - which is why I'm not going to pretend I'm content with just anyone. 

 

I don't buy how Laurel makes the show worst (she barely gets any screentime ffs).

 

She got enough screentime in season 1 and 2, I don't know about that. And her storyline was always the worst part of the show. 

 

And the worst actor on that show is Stephan.

 

Debatable. I'm not a fan of him or Oliver, at all, but there were moments KC was so bad it was laughable. I still don't care that much for acting - I'd be OK if the character was written better, in fact, I've gone in into Arrow expecting to *like* Laurel because I've been told how awesome Black Canary is in the comics... Well, I did indeed love the Black Canary. Only it was not Laurel, and she was killed to prop her.

 

Except female characters aren't treated like male characters. Where are the massive hate threads for poorly written male characters?

 

I'm not watching that many shows nowadays, so I can't use only ongoing shows, but still: Riley was absolutely hated on Buffy when he appeared in s4 (he was written off in s4). Duncan Kane was hated on Veronica Mars (written off in s2), the same later happened to Piz in s3. Finn was hated on The 100 (written off in s2). And that's just shows I like. Then there are non-love interest examples, usually children, like Henry on Once Upon A Time (although male love interests don't fare well in this fandom too, or at least in a militant part of it), or the heroine's son on V reboot (who was really the dumbest character ever). 

 

There's generally a certain distinction between "Die for out ship" mentality, when fans attack a character because he/she stands in the way of their OTP, and actual critique based on writing. Laurel is actually the second case - she was disliked long before Olicity became big, and still is (I can't stand Laurel and I don't care about Olicity). Iris, I think, is the same, at least here and among people who aren't fans of her, but most of us just want her to be written better, because her actress is good and the character has potential to be much better than she is ATM.

Edited February 12, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna]

Oh, and as a feminist, I take issue with calling any dislike of a female character "rampant misogyny". Female characters should be treated the same way as male. If they aren't written well enough, I reserve the right to dislike them.

Yes. I am not going to support crappy actresses playing annoying characters just because somebody else wants me to and I'm not taking responsibility for any jerks hanging around in twitter. If that stuff is bothersome, I would not read it. That's why I don't do twitter.

There is no hate for iris here. So maybe we could talk about the show itself instead of the fans.

(As for male characters, you should have seen the comments on Brandon's character on chuck! But the show was smart and made him evil. They never seem to get rid of the bad female characters and I think that's the problem. On arrow, they got rid of a ton of fantastic female characters and kept the one no one likes. And did a worse job writing her than they had already been doing! That's a writing thing. That's a top level decision thing). Eta: Riley is a good example too. Man I still hate Riley!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Shanna

[phoenics]

I don't think you can truthfully say there is no hate for Iris here.

Also - no one expects YOU to like Iris at all - it's not that deep. No one is forcing you to like anyone - if you're taking that from this discussion, I don't know why that would be - perhaps you are taking the criticism we have of fandom personally.

And I wish it were as simple to just ignore the hate spoken about elsewhere. But given the reality of how black characters are treated and the ever constant danger of them being marginalized, written as a trope or just gotten rid of on a show, we CANNOT just ignore the hatred. We typically have to stand up for the character so TPTB don't just 1) Assume all of the hate is about shipping 2) Assume their writing for the character is "sufficient" 3) keep writing crap and then react with shock and surprise when most of the fandom turns on the character.

Thus our concerns about how Iris is received (and why) are valid, real and important. They actually (because history) have consequences.

I think we can agree that Iris is not being written as well as we would like. What we don't agree on is how good/bad of a character Iris is. I hear some saying they don't even want Iris to become a reporter? WTF? That's like saying you don't want Barry to be The Flash. Iris IS supposed to become a reporter - why wouldn't you want them to do that and hopefully do it right? It sounds like (based on spoilers) they may be trying to get that right now - and I hope they do. For most of this thread, Iris was being criticized for not having a career and not being focused and now that the writers seem to be trying to get their act together that way (though they missed the boat with the burning man stuff) now some don't want Iris to be a reporter?

When I start feeling like a character can't win, that's when I start looking for reasons beyond the writing to explain why.

So - help me out here - what WOULD be considered a good thing with Iris. Please - lay out your blueprint for how you would like to see Iris develop. What would make you excited about the character?

Let's not be the "fandom of No" - let's come up with ideas that would improve Iris for those of you who are hyper critical of her right now.

[driedfruit]

Then why didn't the watchers of Arrow hate Sara, Moira, Shado and Felicity? And again, there are male prominent male characters who got hate just for being badly-written love interests (or sometimes, not even love interests).

 

 

Because certain tropes are hated and others aren't. The main love interest is the one that initially rejects the male protagonist, and that earns her hate. While Sara, Shado, and Felicity started out with manpain soothing and lusting after the MC and they did very little rejecting, which won them fandom love. And Moira occupies another acceptable trope. 

 

Examining why certain female tropes are acceptable and some warrant instant hate is quite interesting and sheds lights on sexism/internalized sexism inherent to fandoms. 

 

Because he doesn't matter for the show. Iris does. We are constantly told how Barry loves her - hell, we were told that in his very first appearance! Her actress is second billed. And there are only two women of the show - I want them both to be treated well.

 

Weren't you the one arguing that Iris is just another secondary character? That said, I agree with you, I want more for her character. But I'm a fan, and fans pay extra attention to their favorites. I have a hard time believing that Iris, who has been getting 2-3 minutes of screentime for the last few episodes warrants like 3 extra pages on her character thread of people complaining. There are a lot of characterization issues, and a lot are regarding characters that have had way more screentime. And that's just my point. The main female love interest has to be incredibly well written character or she gets pelted with constant criticism, but no one else.   

 

Honestly the character I have the most writing issues with is Joe, and he plays just as important a role as Iris. IMO his thread should be full of criticism for how he is written, especially as he's been getting more to do than Iris. But he has what, one page? No double standards at all. 

 

There's generally a certain distinction between "Die for out ship" mentality, when fans attack a character because he/she stands in the way of their OTP, and actual critique based on writing.

 

In cases of "die for our ship", there's usually still a female character that's far more hated. For example, Gossip Girl had a fair bit of hating going on for Dan, Chuck, and Nate, but none of that compared to amounts of hatred the female characters got (not counting Blair) when often, the things the male characters did was actually worthy of the hate while the female characters weren't. 

 

I was too young when Buffy was on and didn't really watch Veronica Mars, so I can't judge there. But Finn hate was absolutely deserved...he was a horrible person. If Iris was that much of a tool, I'd join in on the hate. My point is, asshole characters getting hated is not the same thing as a female character getting hated for simply occupying a trope. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

Some tropes are stupid and tiresome. I thinks that what people mean when they say it's bad writing.

Phoenics, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned several ways I wish they'd write iris and Barry better. Some of it is already happening so oh well (setup to their relationship for instance - I think it would have worked better for Barry to develop feelings for iris on the show).

I didn't want iris to be a reporter because I've seen that character too many times and it feels to much like Lois lane to me, but if try are going to make her a journalist just make her consistent on her interest level and don't drop that story and give her this love interest stuff when journalism would fit better.

I'm not getting into the rest because I think I've made my point.

[driedfruit]

Some tropes are stupid and tiresome. I thinks that what people mean when they say it's bad writing.

 

All tropes are stupid and tiresome...except you know, every character on the Flash occupies one trope or other. And on nearly every tv show. 

 

The fact that some tropes are hated over others is more illuminating about the fandom than anything. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by driedfruit

[SevenStars]

I don't understand how anyone can deny that race/gender have any impact on how people view characters. That's like saying their opinion is done in a vacuum, which blocks out the crap that society feed to all of us when we are born, the history of the impact that race/gender have and how that crap impact our views of things.  

 

The writing for a character is important in how people view that character but that doesn't mean that those views are not filter through race/gender lenses. Just the fact that people being hardcore fans of sports is seen as worthy of respect but people are seen as hardcore fans of shipping or anything that can be seen as feminine should tell us all that we have problem in how we view things. 

 

Also, just because people are saying that some views about Iris is filter through race doesn't mean that people are saying that those people are racist. You don't have to be racist for your views to be filter through race.

Edited February 12, 2015 by SevenStars

[Lokiberry]

I'm sorry, but it seems like race is being used to silence any criticism of Iris. Iris passive-aggressively causes a problem in Barry's already problematic relationship with Linda, people get mad about it, and the shippers immediately claim the anger is racially motivated. No, Iris pulled a dick move, and that's why people are upset. Nor do I understand how Iris is being marginalized on the show in general, and as Barry's love interest in particular, because of the color of her skin when the ones doing the presumed marginalization are the ones who CAST CP IN THE FIRST PLACE.  Did they just not notice?

 

 I think there are two problems at play here:

1. TIIC are fucking up the love interest, again, just like with Laurel.

2. Shipper entitlement. "Everyone who's in the way of me getting my ship the way I want it must be ______".  Fill in the blank with all that apply: stupid, evil, incompetent, homophobic, racist, a terrorist.

 

Disclaimer: I don't ship Barry with Caitlin, Linda or anyone else. I guess that means I'm a terrorist.

 

*edited to add that the reason I added the disclaimer is to make it clear that I'm not unhappy with Iris because I'm from an opposing ship, but now I'm worried that because I didn't include Iris, people will think I'm a racist. Wow, this fandom is turning into loads of fun.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Lokiberry

[peachmangosteen]

I'm sorry, but it seems like race is being used to silence any criticism of Iris.

I feel this way sometimes, too. I've said it too much already probably, but there are real, legitimate reasons to be frustrated with Iris as a character. I can even see legitimate reasons for hating some of her actions. I feel like people who are criticizing Iris are all being attacked because there's obvious racism mixed into some people's opinions of her. But, that's fandom for ya. You take the good, you take the bad I guess! ETA: Upon rereading what I just wrote I realize it's coming of a little "Not All Men," which is gross. Maybe I'm being too defensive. Sorry about that!

 

Nor do I understand how Iris is being marginalized on the show in general, and as Barry's love interest in particular, because of the color of her skin when the ones doing the presumed marginalization are the ones who CAST CP IN THE FIRST PLACE.  Did they just not notice?

Also, this. The only people to blame for what's going on with Iris are the writers. It's not the fans fault they cast a black woman and then decided to marginalize the character she's playing. Maybe the writers are racist or maybe they're weak, but either way, I blame them.

 

As to why no one's complaining about Eddie's lack of development or screentime, well, Eddie is obviously not an important character. He's basically a nobody. I personally love Eddie and do wish he had more to do, but Iris is a pretty important character and I think her writing should be much better than it is because of that. Maybe after they fix Iris' problems they can take a look at ways to make Eddie more than just a third leg in a triangle everyone knows the end to anyway.

Edited February 12, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Sakura12]

I'll agree it's Iris's gender that is what is making her marginalized on this show. These writers just don't know how to write for women other then being the heroes love interest or a victim of his manpain. 

 

Iris is being pushed aside because they see her as just a love interest, they are not that interested in making her a character outside of that. Which is why her storylines are half-assed and rushed. Iris is Laurel redux. Since they cast CP I don't think her race is an issue here. It may be on Twitter and Tumblr but those are place where hate and shipper wars go to breed, so I don't pay attention to them. Most people here want better for Iris as a female character, not just as a black woman. 

 

If Laurel is anything to go by, soon Iris will be thrust front and center. Hopefully in a way that makes more sense than Laurel was. CP is a good actress and that is helping her through this shitty storyline. 

[peachmangosteen]

These writers just don't know how to write for women other then being the heroes love interest or a victim of his manpain. 

 

This. It's really disappointing.

[Shanna]

I wonder If Eddie is being kept background so we won't think poorly of iris for ditching him for Barry? (In whatever way they have planned for that to happen) I like Eddie a lot and I think he and iris made a nice couple. I just think they don't want us to think about them and judge iris as her attention wanders.

I don't even think iris is being pushed aside. She is not part of the flash team [this is mostly because of one of those 'don't tell so and so about this for reasons' tropes that I'm obviously an awful evil probably racist mysogynist for hating I guess], which means they have to use her in other ways, so they are writing the journalism story but I don't think they've done a good job so far with the journalism stuff. And obviously I'm still irritated we didn't get her pov post Barry confession, but we DO know that she went ahead and moved in with Eddie which means rejection. I don't think we need more iris, we just need a little focus and her perspective on things.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Shanna

[In2You]

 

I just want women in general to be treated better on tv. There are very few shows that write women well, most of the time it's the ones written by women. As for shows pushing the white person aside for the POC's, Orange is the Black comes to mind, they pushed the white girl aside to focus more on the other characters of all races. 

 

I want Iris treated better and written better, but I still think if she were played by a white actress she would still be pushed aside for the male characters. 

Actually if you read the creater's interviews the intention was never to really focus on the white girl. They just needed her on the show to get the show sold so they could tell the stories about the other characters. But thats a discusson for the Orange is the New Black board.

[Xander]

I believe Eddie will be back in the next episode when 

Iris/Eddie go on a double date with Barry/Linda

. He'll get a storyline when his connection to Reverse Flash is revealed but for now, he's not relevant without Iris and Barry. 

 

I though her journalism arc would lead to character development but it seems the newspaper got its own set so that Barry can go in there to date Linda. lol. At the end of the day, it's still about her romance. 

 

I think these writers don't know how to write for anything not connected to Barry as the Flash if it's not romance-related so Iris and Eddie are left out of almost everything. And she should have more interactions with the Flash but it looks like they've put that on hold so that it can be clear that she likes Barry and not the Flash. 

[peachmangosteen]

I think these writers don't know how to write for anything not connected to Barry as the Flash if it's not romance-related so Iris and Eddie are left out of almost everything. And she should have more interactions with the Flash but it looks like they've put that on hold so that it can be clear that she likes Barry and not the Flash.

 

This reminded me of another thing that annoys me about the writing for Iris; how in the world does she not have an inkling that Barry is The Flash? It makes her seem both stupid (not to mention not a great candidate for a reporting job) and not that close to Barry, which is probably not the best way to write for Barry's endgame love interest. She has a picture of the Flash now, so she really outta be getting a clue. I guess maybe she is and it'll be revealed later, but if so I think I'm gonna add pacing problems to the issues the writing has.

Edited February 12, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Xander]

This reminded me of another thing that annoys me about the writing for Iris; how in the world does she not have an inkling that Barry is The Flash? It makes her seem both stupid (not to mention not a great candidate for a reporting job) and not that close to Barry, which is probably not the best way to write for Barry's endgame love interest. She has a picture of the Flash now, so she really outta be getting a clue. I guess maybe she is and it'll be revealed later, but if so I think I'm gonna add pacing problems to the issues the writing has.

 

I think it's fine for now; if only to separate her emotions for Barry from those for the Flash. But once that's done, then she should put two and two together. How come his father could figure it out while the person who took the photo and sees Barry almost everyday can't? Shouldn't she ask herself why the Flash suddenly gave her a story to work on? 

 

What I would like is for her to suspect for a second that he is then immediately dismiss it as silly because the guy who faints when he chases after criminals can't possibly be the Flash. 

[Enero]

I wonder why no one has figured out Barry is The Flash? I'd think after 1x10, anyone who knew that STAR Labs took care of him during his 9 month coma should've put two and two together and realized he was The Flash. But of course keeping everyone oblivious is trope for a show such as this.

Regarding Iris, she has a total blind spot when it comes to Barry. This is the same young woman who had no idea that he was in love with her even though everyone else saw it from a mile away. There's no way she'd come to the conclusion that he's the Flash. That would be just as ridiculous to her as the idea that he was in love with her. That said, I do think Barry confessing his love for her might eventually lead to her suspecting he's the Flash - that is if she can get the scenes and story to flesh her POV and potential suspicions out.

With regards to Iris vs Laurel, I am baffled by the comparisons. I will agree that they are similar in that they are/were the main character's love interest. However, Laurel got way more development (a POV, career - that she was serious about, boyfriend - where we actually saw them have bonding moments that had nothing to do with Oliver/Arrow) in S1 than what Iris is currently getting.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Enero