Iris West

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I was just about to post something similar. When Eddie asked Joe when he could make decisions for Iris and Joe replied "when you're her husband". I wanted to punch them both. 

 

Joe went over and above just a protective father with that line. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

I just want to point out that use of the word misogyny is what really bothers me when it comes to Iris.  I don't think she has - at any point in time - experienced this and I strongly dislike that people throw that word around in regards to her character.

 

Misogyny defined: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

 

Barry certainly never displays dislike, contempt, or ingrained prejudice against women.  He has the upmost respect for almost every woman we see him interact with - including Iris.  It is only his overwhelming respect for Joe - his father figure - that makes him hold his tongue regarding his secret (and maybe a little fear that she won't like it as much when she finds out it's him).

 

And while I think I have still missed one or two episodes of season one - I have not personally seen Joe display misogyny either.  He seems to work with and respect women just fine.  You can call him an over-protective father and maybe various other things.  But not misogynistic.  In fact, he seems to display that same lack of trust in Barry early on (especially the fact that he never believed Barry's dad didn't kill his mother until he saw the really weird stuff first hand) that he has for Iris for most of season one.  So I have issue with Joe getting that label as well.

 

I think if people just wanted to slam on different characters for lying or not trusting each other or whatever, I wouldn't take much issue with it (though I don't think Iris is perfect in the truth, trust, and American way department either) - I just feel the need to defend two fairly well-written male characters as NOT being misogynistic.

 

(PS: Feel free to discuss if Oliver Queen is misogynistic or not and I will politely bow out.)

 

I think the largest point that multiple people here have made about Joe's misogyny was him derailing two of Iris' careers due to him believing it wasn't safe for her.  She wanted to be a cop and she also wanted to do criminal justice.  He derailed both of them.

 

Also, it's still misogyny - even if it's the "polite" kind.  Joe repeatedly made decisions for Iris because he felt he knew best.  He didn't allow her to make her own choices.  We can say he was an over protective parent, but I believe his choices were STILL born out of misogyny.  I think you're giving the "ingrained prejudice against women" part of the definition far too little credit.  It's like overt racism - you don't have to call someone the n-word to be acting in a racist way.  It's the same thing with Joe - I don't believe he hates women, but I definitely believes that he has some issues with Iris as a woman and her safety - and he's really overprotective about it.  And many times, a person may be fine in his interactions with some people, but with family you see what's in their heart.  Fear may be the thing driving Joe's internalized misogyny, but that doesn't excuse it.

 

Look - I love Joe - but he was wrong.

 

Also - my biggest gripe with Barry not telling Iris was the betrayal of trust as they are/were best friends AND the fact that everyone else knew about it.  That had to hurt when Iris found out that so many other people knew.  That would hurt me beyond belief.  That's a trust issue - Iris had EVERY right to be angry.  And then when Barry gaslighted her about the things she discovered on her own about the particle accelerator (there's some major journalism for you that you seem to have skipped over in your comments about Iris).  Iris came to Barry with a ream of info she'd collected and worked on about the particle accelerator, correctly theorizing that The Flash got his powers from it and that EVERY meta human got their powers from it.  

 

And then Barry pokes a hole in her ACCURATE theory by LYING to her.

 

It was honestly one of the most infuriating things I had ever seen.  Iris actually figured it out and Barry lies to her - he didn't have to lie.  In the process, you could see how it kinda crushed her spirit.  Barry is lucky I'm not Iris - I would have lit him up for much longer on that one.  He deserved every BIT of her anger.  He deserved MORE.

 

And if you've missed episodes - you might want to catch up.  Maybe you missed some of the most egregious ones.

 

The main issue here was the writing.  Joe was written in a rather paternalistic and misogynistic way (sorry, please don't tone police me, I know what the word means).  His comment to Eddie that Eddie could decide how to handle Iris when he married Iris was MISOGYNISTIC.  Even Candice Patton's MOTHER commented on how bad it was on Twitter.

 

ETA:  I see two others got to the misogyny point above me!! We must have been posting at the same time, lol!

Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

Maybe it's not so much misogynist as sexist. Joe, Eddie and Barry acted like poor little woman Iris couldn't handle the truth or herself on multiple occasions. 

 

If they were really not telling her in the guise of protecting her then they should've have dropped all communication with her. Since Barry was running around telling everyone he was the Flash, any villain could've easily seen Barry hanging around Iris and done something to her. Same with Joe and his being a cop. Criminals would know that Iris is his daughter and go after her. Not telling her puts Iris in more danger since she has no idea what to look out for.  

[nksarmi]

Maybe it's not so much misogynist as sexist. Joe, Eddie and Barry acted like poor little woman Iris couldn't handle the truth or herself on multiple occasions. 

 

If they were really not telling her in the guise of protecting her then they should've have dropped all communication with her. Since Barry was running around telling everyone he was the Flash, any villain could've easily seen Barry hanging around Iris and done something to her. Same with Joe and his being a cop. Criminals would know that Iris is his daughter and go after her. Not telling her puts Iris in more danger since she has no idea what to look out for.  

I agree 110% that they were stupid, but I am hesitant to even call Joe sexist.

 

If he said things like "women shouldn't be cops" then he is.  If he just didn't want HIS daughter to be one, then he is a controlling, over-protective father who can't respect his child or accept that she is an adult and can make her own decisions.

 

The second one isn't right, but it is a character fault specifically related to Iris, not women as a whole.

 

"Yeah, I was just about to post something similar. When Eddie asked Joe when he could make decisions for Iris and Joe replied "when you're her husband". I wanted to punch them both."

 

Sakura12 - did Eddie actually say make decisions for Iris?  I didn't catch that.  I thought it was something like Eddie asking when he got to make decisions regarding Iris rather than having to follow Joe's marching orders.  I never got the impression that Eddie thought he could tell Iris what to do.

Edited September 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[nksarmi]

Banning your daughter from at least two occupations is misogynist, telling her best friend to lie to her because you know better is misogynist.

Lying to your best friend because her dad told you to is misogynist.

Having an argument with your girlfriend's father over which of you gets to make decisions for her is misogynist.

All three of you gaslighting her is misogynist, then sending her to make dinner is misogynist.

It is ingrained prejudice to assume women need protection, can't be trusted and can't make their own decisions.

I thought Iris was a saint when she found out, especially when Barry was such an arse about it, and put it all on her, like her not being honest about her feelings justified his lies.

 

I don't think the first two points are misogynistic at all and that is the whole point.  What if it wasn't Joe making those decisions?  What if Iris' mother survived, she was a cop, and she still didn't want Iris to be one and told Barry to lie to Iris?  Would that be misogynistic or sexist?  No, it would just be what some parents are - highly overprotective.  Some parents really have a hard time letting their children make their own choices in life - and women suffer from this problem as much as men.

 

Nothing Joe ever said implied that he thinks women need protecting  (or at least if he did, it occurred in one of the few episodes I did not see).  Everything Joe said implies he thinks Iris needs protecting.  If you think Joe would treat Iris differently if she was a man, then you have an argument to make for sexism.  But given how Joe treated Barry in flashbacks - extremely overprotective and a bit "my way or the highway" - I don't think it is necessarily correct to assume Joe would treat a son differently than he treats Iris.

 

I also assume that Iris being more or less an only child and her mother being dead (she is dead, right?) plays into Joe's controlling nature.  It seems like Barry and Iris are basically all Joe have left in this world and he holds them both a little tighter than he should.

 

I am not saying that Joe handled this situation properly - I just don't think he is misogynistic or sexist.  Barry definitely is not.  Poor Eddie is dead and I don't think we ever got to find out enough about him to know for sure one way or another.

 

Edited because I keep typing "is" today instead of "if" and that really changes the meaning of a sentence....

Edited September 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

The point is Eddie never has any say in making decisions regarding Iris, whether he's her husband or following Joe's orders. Iris can and should always have a say in making decisions for herself. Neither of them get to decided that for her. She's a grown woman, if she can handle the truth or not is up to her and her alone. 

 

It's such a sexist viewpoint, saying Iris needed to be protected. From what exactly they were protecting her from, I have no idea. They had no good reasons for not telling her, so it came across as they weren't telling her because she'll fall apart at the news? again I have no idea what they were going for. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

I think it's more Joe not wanting to Lose Iris as well as seeing her still as a child. It's his not accepting Iris is an adult with her own choices.

And while Joe does love and worry about Barry too, at the end of the day, Barry was already a tween when Joe became his dad. Barry was never Joe's little baby.

It was Iris's duty to herself to stand up for her own ambitions, wants and desires. She needed to grow up. Even in her own mind she was daddy's little girl.

The last few episodes Iris did some growing up and the men in her life started to treat her as more an adult free to take her own risk. They all have a little while to go but family dynamics are never easy. And imo family dynamic does have to be looked on a bit less name cally than outside of it. It's more emotional and less black and white

[nksarmi]

The point is Eddie never has any say in making decisions regarding Iris, whether he's her husband or following Joe's orders. Iris can and should always have a say in making decisions for herself. Neither of them get to decided that for her. She's a grown woman, if she can handle the truth or not is up to her and her alone. 

 

It's such a sexist viewpoint, saying Iris needed to be protected. From what exactly they were protecting her from, I have no idea. They had no good reasons for not telling her, so it came across as they weren't telling her because she'll fall apart at the news? again I have no idea what they were going for. 

 

I am SO trying to remember the context of that conversation between Eddie and Joe.  I tried googling it and came up blank.  If Eddie was arguing that he got to have some say in rather or not they told Iris the truth - then I defend his comments.  I think this was around the time when Eddie was inches away from losing Iris all because he was protecting Barry's secret and I was so pissed at both Joe and Barry for not finding a way to get him off the hook with Iris.  So I was kind of his side in the whole, "why don't I get a say in rather or not she knows" thing.

 

I mean for goodness sake, poor Eddie gets dragged into this whole secret because Joe needs help, gets sworn to secrecy, and then almost loses the girl and Joe and Barry do nothing to help him out of that mess.  He has to come up with how to get out of trouble with her on his own - and the reason he got in deep with her is because he is so open with her that she could tell he was keeping something big from her and lying to her was eating him up inside.  I really don't think we should heap misogyny or sexist coals on his head.  He really seems like a good guy and I am still really bummed that he died.

 

In fact, I rather hate the whole canon pairing of Iris and Barry at this point.  I think the show runners set them up in the worst way possible to later pair them together.  I think Barry comes off the worst he came off the entire show when he asked Eddie to keep his secret and it almost seemed like he was hoping it would be the thing that broke Iris and Eddie up.  I still don't think that makes Barry misogynistic, just selfish and immature.  But Barry clearly has some growing up to do.  I mean, the writers didn't do him any favors in how they painted the final episode where he learns that his decision to go to the past could destroy the world and he does it anyway.  What the heck?  So yea, Barry has characters flaws - I just don't think sexism is one of them.

 

But yea bringing this all back to Joe - I think it really all comes down to why he treats Iris the way he does.  I happen to believe it's because of who he is as a parent rather than how he sees women in general.  I hope I'm not wrong.

[jaytee1812]

As far as I recall Joe told Eddie it was his decision that Iris didn't know, Eddie asked when he got to make decisions, Joe replied "when you're her husband." There is no explanation other than sexism.

I think the Joe sees Iris as his little girl is still sexist BS. Ever heard of a man unable to let his little boy grow up. Joe effectively has a son, he has no problems with him in law enforcement. Joe does have a problem with other women in law enforcement, he told Quentin Lance he would never allow his daughter to be a DA, implying Quentin shouldn't either. Even if he can work with women it doesn't mean he's not sexist, exhibiting sexist behaviour to one woman is still sexist.

He should remember without said daughter he would've been gorilla food.

[Sakura12]

I'm not a fan of the Barry/Iris pairing either. Keeping the secret from only her did them no favors. 

 

The way they told Eddie was such a WTF? moment for me. I don't get why they let him on the secret at that very moment. He did get the short end of the "don't tell Iris" stick. I was on Eddie's side because he did want to tell her and wish he told Iris to ask her father and Barry why he was being so cagey with her they were the ones keeping things from her. 

[jaytee1812]

I had no sympathy for Eddie, he chose to keep it a secret and gaslight his girlfriend. He should've stood up to Joe like a grown up, as should Barry, and told Iris.

[nksarmi]

As far as I recall Joe told Eddie it was his decision that Iris didn't know, Eddie asked when he got to make decisions, Joe replied "when you're her husband." There is no explanation other than sexism.

I think the Joe sees Iris as his little girl is still sexist BS. Ever heard of a man unable to let his little boy grow up. Joe effectively has a son, he has no problems with him in law enforcement. Joe does have a problem with other women in law enforcement, he told Quentin Lance he would never allow his daughter to be a DA, implying Quentin shouldn't either. Even if he can work with women it doesn't mean he's not sexist, exhibiting sexist behaviour to one woman is still sexist.

He should remember without said daughter he would've been gorilla food.

 

I think displaying sexist behavior to your daughter while treating ALL other women with respect isn't sexism.  It's a different type of character flaw (I keep going back to controlling and overprotective because I think he is that way with Barry as well - but there is probably a better way of saying it).  I have also seen mothers unable to let their children (boys or girls) grow up and certainly their are mothers who would do anything they could to prevent their children from entering law enforcement or the military.  And, while it comes off a little differently, yes I have even seen fathers unable to let their sons grow up (though this does seem to be the rarest of problems in that area).

[jaytee1812]

Joe has a son in law enforcement but wouldn't allow his daughter, it's a clear sexist double standard.

[nksarmi]

I had no sympathy for Eddie, he chose to keep it a secret and gaslight his girlfriend. He should've stood up to Joe like a grown up, as should Barry, and told Iris.

 

Something no one on the damn show seemed able to do - stand up to Joe.  I am predisposed to like Joe because I love the actor who plays him, but they should probably tone him down a bit in season two so we don't have to have the debate about rather or not he is sexist/misogynistic or just a total control freak from hell anymore.

Joe has a son in law enforcement but wouldn't allow his daughter, it's a clear sexist double standard.

 

I want to give you this one, but the problem is that technically what Barry does shouldn't put him in THAT much danger (he is CSI, not a detective).  Then there is the issue with Barry is not really Joe's son.  I mean he is, but he isn't - you know?

 

And even with the fact that Barry isn't really Joe's son - Joe still a) doesn't fully trust him or believe in him (all that stuff with Barry's dad and what Joe thought of that), b) Joe still tries to control him (just the demand that he not tell Iris even though Barry desperately wants to is Joe controlling Barry) and c) even though Joe seems pretty cool most of the time, he definitely has a "my way or the highway" streak that shows up a lot that he used on both Barry and Eddie which seems to imply, sexism isn't really his issue - being a control freak is.

[phoenics]

I agree 110% that they were stupid, but I am hesitant to even call Joe sexist.

 

If he said things like "women shouldn't be cops" then he is.  If he just didn't want HIS daughter to be one, then he is a controlling, over-protective father who can't respect his child or accept that she is an adult and can make her own decisions.

 

The second one isn't right, but it is a character fault specifically related to Iris, not women as a whole.

 

"Yeah, I was just about to post something similar. When Eddie asked Joe when he could make decisions for Iris and Joe replied "when you're her husband". I wanted to punch them both."

 

Sakura12 - did Eddie actually say make decisions for Iris?  I didn't catch that.  I thought it was something like Eddie asking when he got to make decisions regarding Iris rather than having to follow Joe's marching orders.  I never got the impression that Eddie thought he could tell Iris what to do.

 

Making decisions regarding Iris that are made without her knowledge is JUST AS BAD as telling her what to do.  In either case, it was a sexist conversation.

I think it's more Joe not wanting to Lose Iris as well as seeing her still as a child. It's his not accepting Iris is an adult with her own choices.

And while Joe does love and worry about Barry too, at the end of the day, Barry was already a tween when Joe became his dad. Barry was never Joe's little baby.

It was Iris's duty to herself to stand up for her own ambitions, wants and desires. She needed to grow up. Even in her own mind she was daddy's little girl.

The last few episodes Iris did some growing up and the men in her life started to treat her as more an adult free to take her own risk. They all have a little while to go but family dynamics are never easy. And imo family dynamic does have to be looked on a bit less name cally than outside of it. It's more emotional and less black and white

 

Wow - so Iris is to blame for her father's behavior.  Wow. Just WOW!  

 

Like I said.  Every other character on this show gets the benefit of the doubt while Iris is flogged for the slightest thing - even not controlling her father or standing up to him - although she DID stand up to him and Barry and then she got flogged for that too (like a few posts ago!).

 

Iris is simply amazing at drawing out all of these double standards from EVERYONE.  She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.  

 

The entire point of bringing up what Joe and Barry did was to illustrate that Iris was justified in her response to them - but somehow things are still being twisted to bash her.  

I want to give you this one, but the problem is that technically what Barry does shouldn't put him in THAT much danger (he is CSI, not a detective).  Then there is the issue with Barry is not really Joe's son.  I mean he is, but he isn't - you know?

Except Iris also (based on the pilot) wanted to go into criminal justice (which would have kept her as safe as Barry according to your logic), but Joe derailed that as well.

The main point here is that Joe is controlling and Barry joined into that behavior. And worse, Barry gaslighted Iris as well when she figured out the truth about the particle accelerator (again - pointing out the journalism here that you say she doesn't have) by lying to her. Iris was justified in her response to both Joe and Barry.

I don't understand your hate for Iris - it doesn't seem to be supported by what aired and you just seem like you can give the benefit of the doubt to everyone else - just not Iris. Why is that?

[tarotx]

No Iris isn't to blame for her father's behavior but she is at fault for changing her plans, ambitions and hiding life choices because of/to him. Joe does treat Iris like a child-his baby girl. It's an issue that many fathers have and does need to change but the use of hyper sensitive words doesn't tell the whole story of what we know about Joe season 1. This was a family dynamic issue imo.

Edited September 4, 2015 by tarotx

[driedfruit]

This was a family dynamic issue imo.

 

Yeah and many family dynamics are structured by sexism thanks to patriarchy. 

 

It was Iris's duty to herself to stand up for her own ambitions, wants and desires. She needed to grow up. Even in her own mind she was daddy's little girl.

 

She did, and yet the men in her life continued to disrespect her intelligence and agency, and continued to gaslight her. 

 

But in your comments you seem to bend yourself into a pretzel to defend the male characters, and yet, the one time Iris gives into her father's control despite standing up for herself all season, and suddenly she's a child in her mind and also to blame? Yeah, K.

Edited September 4, 2015 by driedfruit

[tarotx]

I didn't say she was a child. She allowed herself to be treated like one. Her father treated her like she was his little girl. And yes family dynamics were structured by Sexism but that doesn't mean Joe's sexist or worst. And I don't bend like a pretzel for the men. I just like them best-kind of. Oliver, Moira, Sara and Barry are my favorite characters. Iris has a lot of potential though.

Yeah and many family dynamics are structured by sexism thanks to patriarchy.

She did, and yet the men in her life continued to disrespect her intelligence and agency, and continued to gaslight her.

But in your comments you seem to bend yourself into a pretzel to defend the male characters, and yet, the one time Iris gives into her father's control despite standing up for herself all season, and suddenly she's a child in her mind and also to blame? Yeah, K.

[driedfruit]

She allowed herself to be treated like one.

 

 

How? When? The only time she let Joe treat her like a child was back when she was lying about Eddie, but in 1x3 she came clean and stood up for herself and by her relationship. 

 

Joe didn't need Iris' allowance to treat her like a child. Not when he had assigned his fellow policemen to be watching over Iris and snitching on her. Or when he was bullying her best friend and boyfriend into lying and gaslight her. Iris didn't allow any of this. 

Edited September 5, 2015 by driedfruit

[tarotx]

When she chose not to fight for what career she wanted. And really who's pretzeling for real. I get it you hate Joe. I think Joe's a good man who loves his daughter. All the big hateful words aren't going to paint an accurate picture and instead paint a loving father as a horrible man. Hyperbolic in nature. So so healthful when trying to understand character, relationship and family dynamic. And I know this will continue with you judging me with wows and K's. Looking forward to it...

How? When? The only time she let Joe treat her like a child was back when she was lying about Eddie, but in 1x3 she came clean and stood up for herself and by her relationship.

Joe didn't need Iris' allowance to treat her like a child. Not when he had assigned his fellow policemen to be watching over Iris and snitching on her. Or when he was bullying her best friend and boyfriend into lying and gaslight her. Iris didn't allow any of this.

[phoenics]

When she chose not to fight for what career she wanted. And really who's pretzeling for real. I get it you hate Joe.

I think you're putting words in our mouths - none of us hate Joe - we just don't like how sexist and misogynistic he's been to Iris. We also don't like how Joe is completely excused for his behavior, while Iris is judged on both sides. First, she's bad for standing up for herself - now apparently she didn't stand up for herself enough.

It's an ugly double standard I've seen applied to Iris since this show aired. She really can't win, can she?

 

I think Joe's a good man who loves his daughter.

I think Joe's a good man who loves his daughter too - I just happen to think he's also sexist and misogynistic in that he infantilizes Iris unnecessarily.

 

All the big hateful words aren't going to paint an accurate picture and instead paint a loving father as a horrible man.

Pointing out Joe's sexism and misogyny (even if it's a slightly more benign kind) isn't being hateful, or using hateful words. It's simply pointing out a flaw of Joe's. I love Joe - but one thing that has bothered me most of Season 1 was that he had all of these awesome bonding scenes with Barry, yet we were shown so few with Iris, all the while Joe is being extremely controlling and sexist in his actions regarding his actual daughter. That was definitely the fault of the writers, but it did make his actions stand out so much more. Basically, it made Joe look like he cared to control Iris, but since he was rarely shown in a scene ALONE with her (I can count 3 since the mid-season break - two of those happened in the same episode Grodd Lives), it got hard to remember that he was a loving dad to her.

 

Hyperbolic in nature. So so healthful when trying to understand character, relationship and family dynamic. And I know this will continue with you judging me with wows and K's. Looking forward to it...

Did you mean 'helpful' instead of 'healthful'? It changes the subtext.

I think maybe we should pivot back to what started this conversation - which was the idea that somehow Iris was at fault for her father's behavior, which seems extremely unfair and sounds like victim blaming. Additionally, I still find it really odd that Iris is to blame for not standing up to her father, but then somehow she's also at fault for standing up to him and Barry.

Again. Double standard.

I think that for some, Iris will be wrong no matter what she does -- and I find that to be extremely sad and disappointing.

I wonder if that's how Iris felt when her dad derailed her two career choices? One thing I really like about Iris is how devoted she was to her family - including her dad and Barry. Specifically with Barry, she believed in him when no one else would. When he talked about the man in yellow as a kid and the impossible, Iris believed him. So when The Flash showed up, she believed in The Flash too. Because of Barry. That's a true friend. And something I think should be applauded.

And maybe Iris didn't stand up for herself with her dad before (still doesn't excuse her dad, btw), but she certainly did with the blog (though she seemed to be at fault for that too for some folks). And then later with her choosing to be a reporter. And then later when she stood up to both Barry and Joe for lying to her for nearly a year.

Edited September 5, 2015 by phoenics

[tarotx]

What started this conversation is the use of those powerful words that don't even come close to being "helpful" (yes bad typo). Joe isn't misogynist. The word is why I got into this conversation. He might be a little bit sexist but that isn't telling the true story either. He sees Iris as his little girl-someone he has to protect. Iris allowed it. She was Daddy's little girl. And then Barry was hurt, she fell in love and started on her journey to discover herself. She actually didn't have a lot of screen time dealing with her issues.

[phoenics]

Besides your point about where this conversation started, I mostly agree with you. For your reference, the convo the rest of us were continuing started back in June with nksarmi, :)

But I completely agree that Joe loves Iris.

To me, him being sexist or misogynistic (more that he infantilizes Iris unnecessarily) in some ways doesn't change that he loves Iris and that he's mostly a good guy. I think my main problem with him and the way the writers did this storyline is that they showed so many scenes with Joe and Barry so if/when Joe was too controlling with Barry, the plethora of other tender scenes with them balanced them out. But after the mid season break, Iris and Joe had only 3 scenes together - and 2 of them were in the GRodd episode (one of them where Iris was furious with him). So we didn't get to see enough of Joe having tender scenes with Iris to balance out his controlling (and yeah, sexist) behavior towards her behind her back.

I *think* the writers wanted us to see Joe as being controlling or sexist or whatever - I just don't think they punished him enough for it. Contrast that to Laurel on Arrow, who made a tough decision to try to "protect" her father from pain when he had a heart condition and he's still hating her. Something about the writing there feels really sexist. When a female character does something that we should have some compassion for, she's punished egregiously and overly harshly - both by the fans and by the writers. But when a male character does something similar - he's let off the hook in one episode.

That's not nice. No matter how one might feel about Laurel - the writing contrast with her vs Joe is really disturbing - especially since the writers went through the trouble to point out how the two situations were meant to be paralleled with the crossover they did with the two dads.

If Iris had treated her dad like Detective Lance is treating Laurel, my gosh the fandom would have really come down on her even worse than they already did.

[Chip]

There seem to be a lot of accusations of people putting words in each other's mouths. Whether this is intentional or just perceived, please be respectful of others opinions. Read what they are trying to communicate and try to see things from their point of view. If seems like someone is not going to come around to yours, it's probably best to move on and let the discussion progress.  Once it becomes an argument, it's not really fun anymore.

[wingster55]

...it happened :)

[Trini]

Is that you? Cool! Where was that?

[Chip]

That's great! I hope you had a blast at Dragon Con. We did!

[phoenics]

Wow! Awesome!  And gah she's so cute and tiny!!

[wingster55]

That's me indeed

 

That's great! I hope you had a blast at Dragon Con. We did!

Thanks. Next time I'll stay for all the 4 days I hope.

[Enero]

I wasn't really feeling this episode, especially with regards to Iris. It was nice to see her be apart of the action, but I didn't like the fact that she got no POV with regards to Eddie's death. The 2 second scene she got in the police station gazing sadly at his picture didn't cut it for me. I would've liked to have seen more. Caitlyn received a couple of scenes where she was able to express her devastation over Ronnie's death. Why couldn't Iris get something similar? I know, different from Eddie, Ronnie was Caitlyn's husband and Ronnie is Firestorm and of course the episode didn't have enough time to show both ladies grieving.  

 

However, I do think they could've played it a little differently. Even if we didn't get Iris' POV on Eddie's death last night, we could've seen that she was still very much devastated over his death and that it was affecting her too. The way things played last night, with Iris being seemingly happy as a clam, if I didn't know any better, I would've thought her quick sad glance at Eddie's picture was just that, a pang of sadness over the death of brief a acquaintance, rather than hurt over the man she was living with and maybe even planning to marry being dead. 

 

I'm all for Iris, being in the mix, but that doesn't mean anything if she's just there to prop up Barry and the other characters and don't have a POV of her own. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Enero

[phoenics]

Thank you Enero - that really, REALLY bothered me in the premiere. The way they played Iris vs Caitlin with regards to grief was very uneven and it reduced Iris to tropes, honestly.

And I agree that her being in the mix means nothing if she's just a prop and we don't get any PoV for her at all.

The whole thing disturbed me and put me in a rather bad funk. Especially since it was so uneven. Even the Westallen scene seemed off to me - and I blame GG for that. Something in his delivery was off and it makes me suspect behind the scenes foolishness.

Candice was great as usual - but GG's intense delivery during the Jitters scene and the way he kinda snapped at Iris really, really bothered me. I hope this isn't a continuing trend.

And I hope we get more grief or at least acknowledgement of what Iris lost than we got in the premiere. Caitlin and Iris' loves died within minutes of each other and Iris actually watched hers shoot himself and then DIE in her arms. And she can't even get a d@mn hug?

WTF writers.

Ugh. I'm still mad, lol.

[Oscirus]

The only thing that bothers me is that two seasons in and we still haven't gotten any best friends scene.  It feels like  Barry could've consoled Caitlin and then in the next scene, we see Barry holding the flash drive and  Iris being the one to get him to watch it. That's a best friend scene. Not Joe telling her and by extension, us.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Oscirus

[wingster55]

I noticed her being upset at the end during Stein's speech. May be not enough (ok I know it's not..but I guess she handles loss and grief differently)

[phoenics]

It's the same "upset" look we got from Caitlin in the same scene - so no, that's just not enough.

I actually don't think this will come up again actually. I think we'll end up with stuff from her with her mom at some point but I don't think we're going to get much more with Iris about Eddie. Which will upset me if we do get a million scenes with Caitlin mourning Ronnie. Not saying she shouldn't - but to show one and not the other would be an ugly route for this show to take.

[Ruby25]

Ok, here's my only problem with this lack of grief thing. I did NOT want to see Iris in mourning all season- in fact, that was like my biggest fear after what happened to Laurel in season 2 of Arrow.

 

But on the other hand, if she's coped with her grief in a healthy way and is now moving on...exactly why is Barry going to be dating someone else? There would seem no real reason to delay them yet again, especially since even Caitlin is going to be having a new romance soon too. Iris has gotten over it but just can't be with Barry because it's too soon, yet Caitlin is totally okay with dating someone new, even though the same thing happened to her?

Edited October 8, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Ok, here's my only problem with this lack of grief thing. I did NOT want to see Iris in mourning all season- in fact, that was like my biggest fear after what happened to Laurel in season 2 of Arrow.

 

But on the other hand, if she's coped with her grief in a healthy way and is now moving on...exactly why is Barry going to be dating someone else? There would seem no real reason to delay them yet again, especially since even Caitlin is going to be having a new romance soon too. Iris has gotten over it but just can't be with Barry because it's too soon, yet Caitlin is totally okay with dating someone new, even though the same thing happened to her?

*snort* Well Caitlin moves on fast. Remember how she was practically ready to quit Ronnie after he came back from the dead the first time just because he said not to contact him? Based on that deleted scene, she was ready to throw her wedding ring in the Cisco incinerator and move on immediately, talking about how Barry deserved to take a peek (heavy shade and sarcasm).

That whole thing was so disturbing.

The only thing that helps with Iris is that we know she's going to be

heavily involved with the storyline with her mother returning and also with Wally West (unless the writers make that all about Barry). My suspicion is that Wally will be Iris' brother.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Chip
potential Season 2 spoilers

[nksarmi]

Ok, here's my only problem with this lack of grief thing. I did NOT want to see Iris in mourning all season- in fact, that was like my biggest fear after what happened to Laurel in season 2 of Arrow.

 

But on the other hand, if she's coped with her grief in a healthy way and is now moving on...exactly why is Barry going to be dating someone else? There would seem no real reason to delay them yet again, especially since even Caitlin is going to be having a new romance soon too. Iris has gotten over it but just can't be with Barry because it's too soon, yet Caitlin is totally okay with dating someone new, even though the same thing happened to her?

 

Well, with the time reverse of the tidal wave episode, Iris never admitted her feelings about Barry right?  And now, even if she has cried herself out over the course of six months - enough that she can be happy with friends while still missing him (and what could have been) - she might not be ready to be with someone new.  I mean, when my aunt died, her husband could be happy like Iris was happy relatively quickly, but I don't know how much dating he's done and it's been years.

 

I think it's just so different with Caitlyn and Ronnie because I suspect that Iris feels no guilt over Eddie's death (nor should she).  Guilt is probably what is dragging Caitlyn down more than grief itself - guilt that she didn't go with him and savor every moment she had with him - guilt that she put Team Flash ahead of him, etc.... I think guilt adds a layer of grief to things that just mourning someone doesn't.

 

However, while some people can start dating after six months, other people aren't ready that quickly.  And even when Iris is ready, she might not want to go there with Barry no matter what her feelings are for him.  1. She might feel bad because Eddie thought he was going to lose he to Barry.  2. Now that she has lost someone she loved, she might not want to become romantic with Barry since she is very aware how easily he could die (Ronnie and Caitlyn might amp that up for her).  So while she loves Barry, she might not want to go even deeper down that rabbit hole.  3. If I recall correctly, she and Barry speculated that maybe they got together in the future specifically because they didn't grow up together the first time around.  Maybe on some level she (and he perhaps) are tabling their feelings because they think when Wells changed the past, their future isn't going to work out like that.

 

Now of course the real reason none of this is being dealt with now is because Eddie is SO going to come back evil and torture the hell out of both Iris (emotionally) and Barry (physically) or we will get alternative world evil Eddie and all the big emotional beats will be hit then - in sweeps. :)

[Iamsweetdee]

No, that's not the real reason.

[driedfruit]

The actor for Eddie is a series regular on another show, he's not likely going to be available for sweeps for anything more than a cameo, if that.

[nksarmi]

The actor for Eddie is a series regular on another show, he's not likely going to be available for sweeps for anything more than a cameo, if that.

Oh I didn't know, but still - if your death creates a paradox in comic book world, don't you have to come back as evil at some point?  And really, isn't Flash in a paradox right now with "if Eddie died and erased Wells/Eobard from time, how did his descendent travel back in time and kill original Wells, Barry's mom, and everything up to the point where the particle accelerator exploded and season one began?"

 

Don't they have at least try to get the actor back and figure out a way to address this? Or will it just be ignored?

[phoenics]

This probably goes in the Eddie thread - but I really thought (still might think) that they would bring Eddie back as Cobalt Blue. It cannot be a coincidence that Cisco had to redo the time machine with cobalt panels and that both the panels and Eddie got sucked into the singularity. So I guess they could have Eddie come back evil (Cobalt Blue) and torture Iris and Barry?

Also - how did the singularity not suck up all of Star Labs since it originated there?

[nksarmi]

This probably goes in the Eddie thread - but I really thought (still might think) that they would bring Eddie back as Cobalt Blue. It cannot be a coincidence that Cisco had to redo the time machine with cobalt panels and that both the panels and Eddie got sucked into the singularity. So I guess they could have Eddie come back evil (Cobalt Blue) and torture Iris and Barry?

Also - how did the singularity not suck up all of Star Labs since it originated there?

 

It makes sense that Eddie comes back.  I don't know if it will happen this season, but I agree that it can't be coincidence - something has to come of it.  Maybe they already contracted the actor for season three and he is just doing another show in the meantime? 

 

I honestly can't believe the fallout for Eddie's death is complete.  Even if I'm ok with Iris being able to be "happy" right now and I don't feel like I needed to see her "mourn" it just feels like something MORE has to happen at some point. 

[AyChihuahua]

The actress playing her mother is really, really bad.  And Joe really is a huge awful liar.

Edited October 21, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Oscirus]

Ok writers stop sandblasting away all of Iris's faults. She can get angry every once in a while. How the hell is the onus on her to forgive her father for this?

[nksarmi]

The actress playing her mother is really, really bad.  And Joe really is a huge awful liar.

Yea can't defend this, but at least he isn't acting like he did nothing wrong.

[Actionmage]

I started this in the episode thread, but I think this is a better place.

 

I yelled at the TV when Joe told Barry that he'd been lying to Iris. "Duh!!"  That Jesse L. Martin keeps me from hating Joe with a white phosphorus hate is a credit to his skill. When Iris comforted her father, I about lost it. This is the man who not only lied to her about her mother, but :

a)somehow got her to quit/removed/whatever out of the police academy

b) refused to back her in any field/job that could remotely be thought of as dangerous/law enforcement-adjacent

c) refused to support her blog

d) refused to support her more respectable journalism position ( the last two because of how much danger she would potentially be in)

e) wasn't supportive of her relationship with Eddie, his work partner ( what support was grudging and Eddie was still made to feel like an interloper after Iris moved in with him)

f) she was directly threatened by Reverse Flash at mid-season and wasn't informed of this  very real and imminent danger until the penultimate episode of last season ( with the "keep her safe" excuse).

That once again the child in the relationship was comforting the parent felt wrong. Joe can have his conflicted feelings and guilt and relief at the telling and heartbreak over  her leaving. To essentially tell Iris that she is right in comforting him and ignoring her own swirl of complicated emotions is awful. Even if that's not what the writers intended.  The person who has been lied to about many things over the last twenty-some years is comforting the person who has finally come clean about the biggest lie he's told.  I get that Joe wanted a Nice Mommy for Iris to have "memories" about, but ... ::sighs and noises::

 

We see Joe's hurt and disgust/disdain. We hear Joe tell his side of the story to Barry and Iris. We get why Joe is breaking down. I don't know why Iris feels the need to suppress whatever she is legitimately feeling to comfort Joe. Yes, he's her father, but he's also been the author of many obstacles and stupid lies in her life. He's frozen her out before the series has started. He has tried to micromanage her life since that day and mostly succeeded.  Maybe I just answered my own question, but  Iris being that forgiving seems to be edging her into Saint Iris of the Negative Emotions Are Evil country and that's not cool, imo. It robs the show of natural, understandable tension. It robs Iris/Candace of cathartic, natural reactions.  I don't need a half-season plus of Iris freezing out Joe, but something appropriately icy to parallel Len Snart's dealing with his brutally honest parent.

 

It also horked me off tremendously to have Iris' mom passed-out-with-the-open-flame-in-the-kitchen drug addict. If Iris' mom isn't in actuality a cool secret agent for ARGUS or some other government spy-tastic organization, then I will be sorely disappointed. That's how a supposedly drug-addicted cop's wife so completely disappears after ditching rehab for a second(?) time.  She missed field work, loved her daughter, but her bosses told her she had to completely leave everyone behind due to what she was going to do.

 

I can't imagine how Iris will actually react.  Either she will grudgingly listen and cautiously welcome her Mom into her life, then Mom bugs out because it was never going to be permanent anyway, or she will want nothing to do with this stranger.  Or she will be Saint Iris and welcome Mom back because everyone deserves second chances. When her concerned friend Barry urges going slow in her acceptance, he will be blown off as overcompensating due to Reverse Flash ( still erroneously being called "Wells", probably.)  I hope that Mom came through a portal/spacetime rift and offers to show Iris what she's been doing and Mom is Bumblebee or someone cool back where she's been, but I'm not believing anything reasonable ( wrt anything close to comics-based) will be written. It will be what Joe told us, until they can figure out how Joe lied about that.  Because Reasons. 

 

I hope Candace is having fun.  I did like that she got to win the Guitar Hero/Rock Band LIVE thing she and David Ramsey did.  Maybe we can get a winter break web series of Iris investigating a story and calling Linda for back-up since it's not a metahuman thing.

[Enero]

Actionmage - Great post, but you know what I'm done trying to figure it out. It's been obvious for a while now that the writers have no interest in or no intention of fleshing out Iris' character. I continued to watch in hopes that things would change but no such luck. And from what I've been reading about what's to come, it looks like there are no plans to improve the direction of Iris, so I'm done.

I won't be watching anymore of this show unless I hear things have drastically improved on several fronts, not just with Iris.

[Chicago Redshirt]

My personal take: 

 

So far I feel like the writing for Iris has improved this season. 

 

I get that there is much room for her to get more POVs and more subplots.

 

But let's review how she was generally characterized S1 vs. S2.

 

S1:

She was deceived, marginalized and infantalized by the three most important people in her life: Barry, Eddie and Joe

She was depicted as flighty, jealous, and at least somewhat clueless

She didn't have a  very well defined career path, veering from grad student to barista to blogger to cub reporter

She didn't  have a clue as to what danger she faced

She was mostly defined as Joe's daughter, Barry's crush/best friend and Eddie's fiancee

 

S2:

She is now in many respects the heart of Team Flash, able to reach Barry when no one else can

She is much more serious and in control

She has apparently blossomed into a fairly decent reporter, having developed a story about a housing scam that was threatening enough to get someone to send gunmen after her and to get her a front page story

She is still overly defined by her relationship to Barry and Joe, but baby steps...

 

I would love to have more Iris/Caitlin scenes, Iris/Cisco scenes, Iris/Linda scenes

[Trini]

It also horked me off tremendously to have Iris' mom passed-out-with-the-open-flame-in-the-kitchen drug addict. If Iris' mom isn't in actuality a cool secret agent for ARGUS or some other government spy-tastic organization, then I will be sorely disappointed. That's how a supposedly drug-addicted cop's wife so completely disappears after ditching rehab for a second(?) time.  She missed field work, loved her daughter, but her bosses told her she had to completely leave everyone behind due to what she was going to do.

I'm still hoping this is the REAL story with Francine, but I feel most of my hopes were crushed.  >:-/

 

Basically my reaction to "Iris' mom was a drug addict":

 

 

I would love to have more Iris/Caitlin scenes, Iris/Cisco scenes, Iris/Linda scenes

 

Have we ever had a real Iris/Cisco scene? I think they might be fun together. (But then again, Cisco adds funn to everything!)

[Freckles101]

 

Have we ever had a real Iris/Cisco scene? I think they might be fun together. (But then again, Cisco adds funn to everything!)

 

Yes, we did, in 2x01! And it was one of my favorite scenes LOL. Joe + Cisco + Iris is possibly the best combination of any characters on this show tbh.

 

 

 

 

Cisco and Iris definitely need to have more scenes together. Hopefully that will happen this season. I loved seeing that Iris was there in that first Jitters scene in this episode because it really shows how she is part of the team now.