Caitlin Snow

[adora721]

25 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Yeah, I read some of the responses. DP wants Caitlin to be Joan's daughter on that earth. Desperation, lol. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she likes the actress who plays Joan and wants to work with her. 

It's hard to give her the benefit of the doubt when DP has a history of asking for or mentioning in interviews that Caitlin should be friends with Felicity, Patty Spivot, and now Joan Williams, but not with Iris, the woman who's been in Cait's life for six years now. I wonder what those three have in common, besides a background in STEM? Hmm.....

Edited October 19, 2019 by adora721

[SevenStars]

8 minutes ago, adora721 said:

It's hard to give her the benefit of the doubt when DP has a history of asking for or mentioning in interviews that Caitlin should be friends with Felicity, Patty Spivot, and now Joan Williams, but not with Iris, the woman who's been in Cait's life for six years now. I wonder what those three have in common, besides a background in STEM? Hmm.....

We know her and Candice are not really friends, so she is just being honest in not promoting Caitlin and Iris friendship. I get that. 

But has she mention friendships with Cecile or Cisco current gf or past gf ?

[Starry]

I think Wallace inherited a character with a lot of baggage and he's trying to make the best out of it. The previous showrunners have ran this character into the ground. Between the retcons and whitewashing I am not sure what Frost is supposed to be. This means she can be anything, including the rebellious artist who's learning how to function in the real world.

As usual, I found it telling that the team could go on without Caitlin.

9 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Yeah, I read some of the responses. DP wants Caitlin to be Joan's daughter on that earth. Desperation, lol. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she likes the actress who plays Joan and wants to work with her. 

This irks me. I don't know why the other person even suggested it when that's not how the multiverse works. Caitlin can't have one set of parents on one Earth and a different set of parents on another Earth and still look like DP. They went out of their way to not include Nora in Elseworlds because they couldn't explain how Grant's Barry and Stephen's Barry could both produce a daughter that looks like Jessica's Nora. That would have been too much even for a comic book show.

Joan can have a daughter named Caitlin Snow with a split personality named Killer Frost. She just can't look like DP.

[Trini]

22 hours ago, Starry said:

I think Wallace inherited a character with a lot of baggage and he's trying to make the best out of it. The previous showrunners have ran this character into the ground. ...

Pretty much. And I kind of appreciate that he's trying to flesh out Killer Frost (since clearly, he's not allowed to delete this character), but I've been over Caitlin/KF for a while.

I will say that I think Danielle and the writers seem to like playing/writing KF more than Caitlin, so KF being around more often works out better that way.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Trini

[adora721]

I hope Wallace keeps KF exploring her feelings like guilt and being empathetic to others. It may lead to something of substance.....maybe.

ETA: My current hope is that when the new Wells arrives, he'll accuse KF of being like the KF on his world who murdered people directly or helped to murder people. Of course, the team will defend her, particulary Cisco.

However, new Wells will continue to pester KF with questions about having helped anyone to an early grave or working for criminals.  He'll make the team question the sanity of keeping her on the team. And he won't trust her, at least not for a long while.

I hope that triggers nightmares in KF of taking HR to Savitar, trying to help kill Iris,  trying to murder Tracy Brand, freezing people's fingers and toes off, trying to murder Cisco and Barry, holding an icicle to Cecile's throat, etc. Perhaps she'll confess to Ralph, since he doesn't know because she lied to him S4, that she did help to murder a team Flash member. Perhaps then she'll realize that she needs to apologize, stop allowing the team to defend her, and attempt to make real amends.  That would make me very happy.

Edited October 20, 2019 by adora721

[wingster55]

On 10/18/2019 at 9:22 PM, SevenStars said:

We know her and Candice are not really friends, so she is just being honest in not promoting Caitlin and Iris friendship. I get that. 

But has she mention friendships with Cecile or Cisco current gf or past gf ?

This...tension wasn’t always there but even then DP never talked about a friendship between them. 
 

She also only mentions ships or crackships with white people. An old interview:

has her immediately jumping from the mere idea of Caitlin and Cisco as a pair. 

[Katsullivan]

On 10/19/2019 at 8:18 PM, adora721 said:

ETA: My current hope is that when the new Wells arrives, he'll accuse KF of being like the KF on his world who murdered people directly or helped to murder people. Of course, the team will defend her, particulary Cisco.

Great idea but don't be surprised if Snowflake has an embargo against storylines like that. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Katsullivan

[SevenStars]

On 10/19/2019 at 10:59 PM, wingster55 said:

This...tension wasn’t always there but even then DP never talked about a friendship between them. 
 

She also only mentions ships or crackships with white people. An old interview:

has her immediately jumping from the mere idea of Caitlin and Cisco as a pair. 

I'm just glad we want the same thing, for different reasons. I love Cisco and I don't want him with this snowflake character. 

[adora721]

Killer Frost claimed to be rebranding, but put an icicle to Ramsey's throat and then shot to push the meta-villain of the week out the building window in an effort to kill him. That's a killer mindset alright.

[phoenics]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:44 PM, SevenStars said:

Yeah, I read some of the responses. DP wants Caitlin to be Joan's daughter on that earth. Desperation, lol. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she likes the actress who plays Joan and wants to work with her. 

You know that's not it.

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

Killer Frost claimed to be rebranding, but put an icicle to Ramsey's throat and then shot to push the meta-villain of the week out the building window in an effort to kill him. That's a killer mindset alright.

I don't understand how Barry can trust leaving this murderous b!sh behind with Iris at her mercy should she ever go off the rails again.

It's not the most realistic storytelling to me.

The writing makes Barry look like he's not really protecting his family (Iris, Joe, Cecile) with all of the coddling KF is given in the writing.  The writers ignoring KF's murderous past and her lack of remorse for it just makes it impossible to care about this character or trust the character at all.

It's beyond the pale that Barry hasn't had a moment where he's like "Fudge!  I can't leave or die leaving Iris defenseless against KF should she ever again decide to team up with a supervillain bent on killing my wife!"  It's beyond the pale that Iris was made to forgive KF for all of that mess when KF never even apologized to her.

The writers think that because they wrote that BS with Iris that we forgive her.  We DON'T.

[phoenics]

On 10/18/2019 at 7:48 PM, SevenStars said:

Stupidity. This is why even when I disagree with those who see her in the worst light, I find it hard to defend her. She plays into it. 

I'm sorry but I really cannot stand DP.  She is really the most passive aggressive white feminist shady b!sh.

On 10/19/2019 at 10:18 PM, adora721 said:

I hope Wallace keeps KF exploring her feelings like guilt and being empathetic to others. It may lead to something of substance.....maybe.

ETA: My current hope is that when the new Wells arrives, he'll accuse KF of being like the KF on his world who murdered people directly or helped to murder people. Of course, the team will defend her, particulary Cisco.

However, new Wells will continue to pester KF with questions about having helped anyone to an early grave or working for criminals.  He'll make the team question the sanity of keeping her on the team. And he won't trust her, at least not for a long while.

I hope that triggers nightmares in KF of taking HR to Savitar, trying to help kill Iris,  trying to murder Tracy Brand, freezing people's fingers and toes off, trying to murder Cisco and Barry, holding an icicle to Cecile's throat, etc. Perhaps she'll confess to Ralph, since he doesn't know because she lied to him S4, that she did help to murder a team Flash member. Perhaps then she'll realize that she needs to apologize, stop allowing the team to defend her, and attempt to make real amends.  That would make me very happy.

If the writers don't show KF being freaked the eff out when she sees Nash Wells, bringing up that she helped kill a man, then there is no hope for this character.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

If the writers don't show KF being freaked the eff out when she sees Nash Wells, bringing up that she helped kill a man, then there is no hope for this character.

KF didn't seem bothered/upset by Sherloque last season, but I hope Wallace uses this current plot of her exploring her feelings and humanity to make her remember that while she just started living, she helped to end a man's life.

[adora721]

If I recall correctly, I believe someone in this forum asked about why it's easier to accept Black Siren, E2 Laurel, despite the fact that she killed more people than KF. Here's a brilliant answer from the Ladies With Gumption:

"Unless I’m mistaken, Black Siren killed a lot more people, and worked for both Chase, Cayden James and Diaz against Team Arrow. So why is it so easy for the hosts to root for her now, but still be unable to accept Killer Frost’s redemption?

— Anonymous

Long story short, Black Siren was held accountable for her actions. Not only that, but her working against Team Arrow was actually considered a terrible thing and she was dragged for it left and right. Then, the show spent a whole season having her actively realize that that’s not the path she wanted to take, so she tried to do right by helping out as a DA (and she still wasn’t accepted into the circle until much later), became a friend and confidant to Felicity, and redeemed herself by first realizing her anger and violent tendencies weren’t a good thing and then rectified it with her attempts to do good for the city. There was actual growth.

When someone can give examples of when Killer Frost was held accountable for her actions (and not coddled) or even looked at as someone who had done anything wrong to anyone on the team, then maybe a discussion can be had. But as far as I can tell, KF suddenly becoming a good guy was because the writers couldn’t decide on what to do with her villainous side and were then too lazy to write her a full-fledged redemption storyline after her actions in Seasons 3 and 4. So, no, there’s absolutely nothing to root for. "

Edited October 23, 2019 by adora721

[rogvortex58]

Frost is definitely more of an extrovert. Caitlin has always been very mild mannered. Danielle must be having fun playing a different side to her character this season.

[Katsullivan]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:19 AM, adora721 said:

When someone can give examples of when Killer Frost was held accountable for her actions (and not coddled) or even looked at as someone who had done anything wrong to anyone on the team, then maybe a discussion can be had. But as far as I can tell, KF suddenly becoming a good guy was because the writers couldn’t decide on what to do with her villainous side and were then too lazy to write her a full-fledged redemption storyline after her actions in Seasons 3 and 4. So, no, there’s absolutely nothing to root for. "

At this point I don't think it's even a joke that Snowflake has something in her contract against her characters being "besmirched" in anyway. 

What I really want, and the show will never do this but a girl can dream, is for them to write a Villain story for Caitlin - not Killer Frost - but Caitlin Snow and kill her off for good. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Katsullivan

[adora721]

Wow! This SpoilerTV review of the Frost character in 6x3 was savage:

"Frost

I meant what I said last week. I really didn't want to spend more time talking about why the story arcs of Caitlin/Frost are consistently the weakest aspects of the show, but alas here we are. So rather than simply drag the character- let me ask some sincere questions.Question one: Why is she behaving like a toddler? We just spent the entire last season bemoaning Nora's childish ways. It's hard to believe the creative team doesn't get that this is not a good look for a super villain or a genius level scientist. Caitlin's character has been lots of different things, and I do mean lots, but she has never been childish. Question two: Why can't the writers decide if Caitlin/Frost know and experience the same things or not? Frost has all of Caitlin's intellect, but she has just discovered Baskin Robbins and all its flavors. Sure, Jan.

Even if Frost was always lurking just beneath the surface of Caitlin's consciousness, she "watched" Caitlin live so she has some frame of reference for all things that Caitlin has done. When Ramsey asked to speak to Killer Cait (I about lost it when he said that), Frost said he could, which means Caitlin is hearing and experiencing what Frost does. So, I don't really know how to connect or invest in her character's growth because I don't understand her. And honestly if Frost was a real friend to Caitlin, wouldn't she want Caitlin to spend her last days with her best friends at STAR Labs? Just another question.

Finally, I have addressed this before and will again. Story lines can and do falter-that's the nature of writing sometimes, but what a poorly written story can't do, sometimes a talented actor can. What The Flash is trying to do with Frost is somewhat admirable. They are trying to make an irredeemable character one the audience can cheer for. They successfully did it with Ralph Dibney in one season. But with the Killer Frost's character, they can't seem to get it right. I submit to you, it's partly because the actress who portrays the role lacks the range to pull off one character let alone two. Danielle Panabaker has been on okay Caitlin Snow and was a pretty good Killer Frost in very early seasons, but as they merged, the challenge of delivering the wildly different emotions and motivations of each character just seems to be too high of a bar. "It's my party, and I'll rage if I want to." Need I say more."

[adora721]

Someone on Tumblr mentioned that the IGN Review of 6x3 doesn't even mention KF and it doesn't; wow!

[BeautifulFlower]

It's been 3 episodes so far this season. And so far, as people have been saying for years now, Caitlin is not needed. These past 2 episodes have proven that.

Her character is not important to the story the way her fans try to portray it. She hasn't appeared since the premiere, yet is the story affected without her? Nope.

For years you had people saying she is needed because she's a doctor and is integral to the team. Well, they were proven wrong. Seriously her role on the show has been to perform medical duties to remind us she's a doctor. The other role is for her to explain scientific things to the audience. That's about it.

She's not missed at all in the story. Sadly, not even by her own fans. I barely seen any of them state they miss her. None of them even care that she hasn't appeared in 2 episodes. They don't even care the she doesn't have a POV on the crisis thing. Nada

[Starry]

8 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

It's been 3 episodes so far this season. And so far, as people have been saying for years now, Caitlin is not needed. These past 2 episodes have proven that.

Her character is not important to the story the way her fans try to portray it. She hasn't appeared since the premiere, yet is the story affected without her? Nope.

That's because her fans reduce her character to STAR Labs and her degrees when they should worry about her place in the narrative. The problem with Caitlin is that any doctor could do what she does.

Science people can be functional to Team Flash but what about their role in the story they want to tell? This isn't a video game where the character with the most abilities is the most needed and useful. Haters crap on Iris because she's a "useless barista without a STEM degree" but in the story they are telling Iris isn't as easily replaceable as Caitlin and the many Wellses are. Girlfriends/wives get a bad rep but from my perspective love interests are usually the most important and needed characters after the protagonist and the villain.

It's very possible for doctors with many degrees to disappear from the narrative without altering the story. Caitlin hasn't been the first and she won't be the last.

[adora721]

I found the previous review of 6x2:

"Killer Frost

I'm so tired of asking this so, I won't be long, but what are they doing with her? Are they really trying to say that she is basically like an infant straight out of the womb who doesn't know that her words and actions hurt people? I think that's cringey not to mention crazy. She and Caitlin have shared a body and head space for years and at one point were having conversation via talking and sticky notes. It's kinda hard to believe that Caitlin never said to her, "That's pretty harsh" or "Maybe don't say that because..."
I could go on, but what I will say is that she should be a villain-full stop. It would be so great. Why won't they just let her be great?"

I really like that other critics are recognizing the same issues; sometimes I think that people think my dislike of CS and KF is unreasonable or just bias. It's great to have media critics who also find the writing and performance problematic. 

I still find it odd that the writers and previous show runners made her/them do all these awful things and then thought the audience and critics would just accept a plot that fails to actually redeem these characters. Unless, TPTB don't think murder, attempted murder, torture, and human trafficking are awful things.

ETA: It just occurred to me that they are infantilizing KF to justify her evil as the acts of a toddler acting out. We're supposed to hold her guiltless as we would a toddler throwing a tantrum. Wow! That's why they're not redeeming her! Of course, that's total garbage. And it then still stands that Caitlin's evil in 3x7 and S4 are the acts of an adult. And they're not redeeming her either.

Edited October 27, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

Someone's trying to get KF/Cait moved to another show:

[SimoneS]

With Sue coming, they could be willing to move KF/Caitlin to the new show. Although having Daneille Panabaker, Elizabeth Tulloch, and Tyler Hoechlin on the same show would turn it into a tornado of bad acting. However, it is the CW so their bad acting would fit in with almost all of the shows.

[Velocity23]

I mean the username of the name says it all i would say. On the other hand Candice was to team up Iris and Lois in the future also. 

[Featherhat]

I don't think there's any chance of CS/KF moving to either of the new shows. The only possibility would be LOT and they don't really take characters from other shows at the moment when they have so many of their own. 

This show could certainly survive without Caitlin without much trouble but OTOH there's been no reason to get rid of her either. The show doesn't kill characters in the way Arrow does and DP doesn't want to leave. And up until recently she was one of only two female regulars. The writers especially seem to like writing for KF, even if they tend to find CS boring. 

I do think there are about 100 other ways I wish the KF story had gone. Caitlin apologising early on even if it wasn't her fault would have been good, and just coming up with a coherent storyline would have been great. 

[phoenics]

On 10/23/2019 at 9:07 PM, rogvortex58 said:

Frost is definitely more of an extrovert. Caitlin has always been very mild mannered. Danielle must be having fun playing a different side to her character this season.

But she isn't really playing a different side.

The writers have merged KF/Caitlin - in the last episode there was no difference in the portrayal of KF/Caitlin in scenes where she wasn't powered up.  She's basically Cait with heavy makeup and powers now.  She's giving Barry advice about Cisco - whom she doesn't really know - but it sounds more like Caitlin giving the advice - not KF.  What - one week and the sarcasm and snark disappears and she's Caitlin in drag makeup now?

The KF voice is gone and so is any attempt to make this character look distinct from Caitlin.

It's the writers having their cake and eating it too - they basically just want Caitlin with Powers and for all of the bad KF stuff to go away - the problem is they couldn't just merge them because that means Caitlin would have to take some responsibility for all the bad she did (that the writers inexplicably don't want her to pay for).  

Instead - they're just gonna make KF act like Caitlin when they want her to have "awwww" scenes with Barry and then make her sarcastic with Ralph and Cisco.

It's complete garbage.

[adora721]

On 10/29/2019 at 12:16 AM, Featherhat said:

The show doesn't kill characters in the way Arrow does and DP doesn't want to leave. And up until recently she was one of only two female regulars. The writers especially seem to like writing for KF, even if they tend to find CS boring. 

Henry Cavill is no longer Superman. That's proof that DC can and will get rid of any actor no matter who they are or what they do or don't want.

That being said, Todd Hellbing is running the new Superman/Lois show and DP would probably be happy to go where her old pal is running the show again. In an interview not long ago, DP expressed a desire to go join "Supergirl". Well, this is Supergirl adjacent. Win-win for DP and for those who find Killer Cait tiresome on the Flash.

ETA: Here's the excerpt from DP's interview, and note the subtle shade that there aren't incredible women on The Flash:

“I want to be on Supergirl,” she recently confessed. “They have such incredible women on that show. We keep adding more and more men. Supergirl keeps adding more women. I wanna go hang with them.”

Edited October 30, 2019 by adora721

[rogvortex58]

Wishful thinking.

Eric seems happy having everybody from the original cast on the show. So it’s doubtful that she’s going anywhere.

Not a problem for me. I love every character. Including her.

But to each his own.

[Featherhat]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

Henry Cavill is no longer Superman. That's proof that DC can and will get rid of any actor no matter who they are or what they do or don't want.

That being said, Todd Hellbing is running the new Superman/Lois show and DP would probably be happy to go where her old pal is running the show again. In an interview not long ago, DP expressed a desire to go join "Supergirl". Well, this is Supergirl adjacent. Win-win for DP and for those who find Killer Cait tiresome on the Flash.

ETA: Here's the excerpt from DP's interview, and note the subtle shade that there aren't incredible women on The Flash:

“I want to be on Supergirl,” she recently confessed. “They have such incredible women on that show. We keep adding more and more men. Supergirl keeps adding more women. I wanna go hang with them.”

They certainly *could* get rid of her, I don't think there are many sacred cows now. But this show has tended not to, unless it's a character like Eddie who was obviously a one and done or Draco who didn't want to commit etc. They like DP and they like writing for KF, there's no reason to loose her. 

The Supergirl quote can be read badly but I think it's mostly just thoughtless. I can see why she might want to go to a majority female cast show, though I don't think she'd want to be there full time. I can't think of a particular need for KF or Caitlin on either Supergirl or My Supercrazy Family as a regular, especially the latter. Though I suppose it's possible. 

[adora721]

16 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

But this show has tended not to, unless it's a character like Eddie who was obviously a one and done

Rick Cosnett was signed originally to a longer contract; others in the know can correct me if I'm wrong. He was supposed to play Jay Garrick; see his interview. The choice to make him Eddie and then kill him off came later. 

Technically, on a show where the meta humans can self heal, there's little need for a medical doctor. Although her genetics skills are useful. That's not a deterrent to keep her from being on a Superman show. Martian Man Hunter is as powerful as Supergirl, but he's on her show.

You are right that TPTB like DP, though. She has strong connections to AJK and Berlanti that predate this show. I suspect that's why, despite being the weakest actor on the show, she continues to have a job. "Thoughtless" is a good DP descriptor.

Edited October 30, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

Pre-season press had indicated that Killer Frost would be seen more than Caitlin; but I'm surprised that Caitlin has been completely absent for 3 episodes in a row.

I think I said this in one of the episode threads, but if they are going to keep treating Caitlin and KF as two different persons, they should either merge them or find a way to physically separate them; because I don't think them living two lives in one body makes sense long term.

[adora721]

36 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think I said this in one of the episode threads, but if they are going to keep treating Caitlin and KF as two different persons, they should either merge them or find a way to physically separate them; because I don't think them living two lives in one body makes sense long term.

I always wondered if KF and Norvock had a romantic thing going on despite their antipathy in 4x5. And KF got through to him in S5 about witness protection. Did you notice Norvock was also at KF's birthday party at the turntable? 

What happens if KF wants to rekindle a thing with him, but Cait's like, "Nope, not in my body."🤣

Edited October 30, 2019 by adora721

[phoenics]

A writer from hypable wants CS and KF to be merged:  https://www.hypable.com/caitlin-snow-frost-merge/?utm_content=sidebar&utm_campaign=sidebar&utm_source=ros&utm_medium=link

It doesn't matter if she's merged - the writers will never hold her accountable for her actions.  None of them.  I hate this character.  There I said it.  I see her as the ultimate representation of gross white female privilege and I HAAAAATE her for it.

As long as she remains on this show NEVER apologizing for her BS directly to the people she harmed, she can effing choke and die.

She's as bad as the Katrina character was on Sleepy Hollow until they finally saw the light and made her evil and killed her off.  The writers use her as a Chekhov Gun they never plan to fire - but the threat of her looms anyway.

The character is a useless plot device with no meaning left.  If she can't ever be held accountable for her ish - especially by BLACK female characters - then she's just a tool of racism and it's my duty to hate her for all eternity.

*climbs down off soapbox*

[adora721]

It's this line that strikes me, "Caitlin Snow has certainly had a long, unexpected, and seemingly unplanned journey over these five years on The Flash. " It seems "unplanned" because certain people were planning on Cait usurping the love interest role, so they had to keep her relatively good or untainted. So certain were they, that they didn't come up with a plan B for Cait or KF. If you look at how "Arrow" dealt with Laurel Lance, it should have been a template, of sorts, for dealing with Cait/KF. Just make them separate bodies or lean into KF as being the real Cait. Had they done that and redeemed her like with E2 Laurel, it would have made for a logical and interesting story. 

And it isn't about the showrunners liking the cast too much to make Cait really evil. That didn't stop them from writing an evil Barry as Savitar. I still think the "cure" that her mom and Julian concocted in S3 should have had the side effect of splitting them into separate bodies. That's how you have your Cait and KF, too 😁

[Featherhat]

I think maybe "unplanned" because they clearly have/had no plan for what KF was and they change it every season. She used to get whatever one year male regular signed on as a love interest with no plans to carry that forward. The writer points out a lot about they can't or don't care enough to pin down an actual storyline with KF - is she an evil side of Caitlin or a completely different personality. They also point out the problems of the writers wanting Caitlin good but still wanting to play with the more exciting KF personality. I can see why she's more fun to write than Caitlin's exposition and medical jargon though. I don't think it's because they like Caitlin too much to make her evil. Caitlin's useful and KF is fun and they don't have to write a big redemption story this way. I'm not sure I agree with merging them into one Catlin with powers but I do think they'll use COIE to do something. 

I have no idea if the writer of the article thought or wanted her to be the love interest but nothing about that is mentioned in the article. Laurel's "arc" on Arrow has been anything but planned. They killed off E1 because they had no idea what to do with her once she was insta!BC and not LI and E2's "redemption arc" has been as rushed and patchy as anything about KF has been: "She hesitated, so she's clearly good inside, she had a dead Daddy and birthday cake, she's taken over her dead doppelganger's life without remorse and isn't atoning for anything but none of the other character who loved E1 care, she relapsed, she's an ally now!" all in a couple of seasons. Now she's in a potential spin off because they smashed two different ideas together. 

[Starry]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I have no idea if the writer of the article thought or wanted her to be the love interest but nothing about that is mentioned in the article.

I don't think the writer of the article wanted her as a love interest. Some people believe that the shows writers and AJK wanted her to replace Iris as the love interest which is why they put the ship-baiting in there and didn't plan the KF arc despite that being Caitlin's comic canon destiny.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't think the writer of the article wanted her as a love interest. Some people believe that the shows writers and AJK wanted her to replace Iris as the love interest which is why they put the ship-baiting in there and didn't plan the KF arc despite that being Caitlin's comic canon destiny.

Exactly.  The article doesn't take a position on love at all - what I said was my view of the character from the perspective of the writers and specifically AJK.  AJK had her as a Chekhov's Gun he really wanted to fire, but never did - but his story arcs for her w.r.t. KF clearly were meant to get the fun of an evil KF but not ever hold CS and later KF responsible because the Chekhov Gun couldn't be fired if CS was deemed "bad".

[adora721]

14 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Caitlin's useful and KF is fun and they don't have to write a big redemption story this way.

You may not know the history of why I mentioned the love interest part, but Starry and Phoenics alluded to it. It has to do with BTS shenanigans on the part of AJK and DP to elevate Cait to love interest status and push Iris aside. Some of this is speculation, but there is some evidence to support it even out of Grant Gustin's own lips.

What we do know is that Caitlin Snow was never a part of the Flash comic. We also know that, originally, Cait was supposed to be an older character and possibly a love interest for Harrison Wells. Instead of doing this, AJK/Berlanti put Cait into the Flash and made her younger to accomodate DP since she is AJK's friend and a client of his wife. Why do this if you don't have a plan for making Cait interesting in her own right and not just KF? Why not bring back an Earth 3, Earth 4, Earth 58, etc., version of Ronnie/Firestorm who is her canon love interest or foil? Why put a non-Flash character into this story and not plan for her future? Vibe is also not a Flash character, but they found a way to make Cisco interesting and beloved.

The answer, IMO, is because once the plan to kibosh WestAllen failed, they had no backup plan. They could have hired a new actor to play Ronnie/Firestorm and make Cait/KF more interesting that way,  but they didn't. It makes no sense that they didn't and now it seems like it's way too late. And the setup of two people living in one body, as many have said, is not sustainable.

ETA: However flawed the Laurel Lance of E2 was, she was made to have consequences for her evil, was called out for her evil by the team and the narrative, she apologized to Dinah directly for killing her BF, and she earned the trust of team Arrow. Caitlin and KF have been given a free pass even though they both need a redemption arc. Tell me how safe you'd feel working with the person who tried to help murder you, was the accessory to a murder, and worked willingly in human trafficking all without showing remorse.

Edited November 19, 2019 by adora721

[Velocity23]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:10 PM, adora721 said:

ETA: However flawed the Laurel Lance of E2 was, she was made to have consequences for her evil, was called out for her evil by the team and the narrative, she apologized to Dinah directly for killing her BF, and she earned the trust of team Arrow. Caitlin and KF have been given a free pass even though they both need a redemption arc. Tell me how safe you'd feel working with the person who tried to help murder you, was the accessory to a murder, and worked willingly in human trafficking all without showing remorse.

BS was complicit in the killing of Williams mother and to this day it was never touched upon. Neither was the fact that BS basically attacked a pregnant Felicity and the writers are acting she is the bestest of heroes. And now they going into the spinoff not ever adressing it. 

People just need to realize that these type of things will never get adressed. Its more tell than show. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Velocity23

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

People just need to realize that these type of things will never get adressed. Its more tell than show. 

At least there was some show of remorse for some things E2 Laurel did and some consequences and some growth and some redemption. We've got nothing from Cait or Killer Frost. And I'll never just get used to these types of injustices, not in fiction nor in real life. 

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

BS was complicit in the killing of Williams mother and to this day it was never touched upon. Neither was the fact that BS basically attacked a pregnant Felicity and the writers are acting she is the bestest of heroes. And now they going into the spinoff not ever adressing it. 

People just need to realize that these type of things will never get adressed. Its more tell than show. 

This isn't the same.  That was ONE instance.  CS/KF have a long history on this show of doing things and NEVER being held accountable for any of it.  EVER.  Not for one thing.  It's like they're coated in teflon.  Nevermind the constant retcons to keep the CS character "good" and viable.  All of the other characters get twisted terribly in order to accommodate CS/KF.

If I was Iris, there is no way in hell KF would be allowed anywhere near me and I'd be laying down a major ultimatum with my husband over it too.  Either that or I'd shank her with a blow torch while she slept.

Edited November 22, 2019 by phoenics

[Trini]

From the Iris thread, but it gave me an idea (I'm not the first to think of it I'm sure):

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

I really need this to be a split personality - Evil Iris/Good Iris thing because a body invasion will just be wrong. It would also make sense because Evil Iris is acting exactly like Iris but with an edge, more driven, more ruthless, less soft. But her passion for journalism isn’t a new thing, and her solution to fix the Amulet/Gold problem was very Iris-ey, get them to see their feelings for each other. So far we haven’t seen her do anything that Iris won’t do. Even the pancakes had a rational explanation.

So here’s hoping that this is a split personality thing and not something more yucky.

 

 

So -- if the mirror wackiness can split Iris, do we think they'll use this to split Caitlin and Killer Frost? The 'two in one body' thing isn't sustainable; I've said before that they have to either merge them or physically split them since they want to keep both. This mirror element might just be the answer to at least one problem with Caitlin/KF.

[Starry]

The problem with Caitlin and Frost is that they are already separated. They just share custody of the same body.

Mirror Iris seems to be a less soft and more calculating version of Iris while with Caitlin and Frost they've been telling us that they are two completely different people with different sets of memories and experiences. At least that's how they've been writing them since the big season 4 retcon.

But I agree that they need to either merge them or split them in two bodies. Frost has become an anchor around Caitlin's neck and vice versa. What if Caitlin falls in love again? Does she share the guy with Frost? What if she wants to take a new job outside of Central City? Does she take Frost with her? This could be an interesting dilemma to explore but they seem determined to keep both characters chained to each other and Team Flash.

[shantown]

I think they should separate them and have one leave for whatever reason. The other half can return for special episodes (like Jeremy Jordan for 2 episodes of Supergirl) and then leave again. That way they don't have to lose a half but they can drop all the BS around sharing a body (because it's stupid).

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

Mirror Iris seems to be a less soft and more calculating version of Iris while with Caitlin and Frost they've been telling us that they are two completely different people with different sets of memories and experiences. At least that's how they've been writing them since the big season 4 retcon.

I agree, it two different situations; but they can just come up with some sci-fi explanation to make it work. My main point is that we've seen* that it split one character into two bodies, so this could be a way for Caitlin and Frost to have their own bodies.

*(they haven't fully explained it yet, but I'm assuming this is how it works)

[Featherhat]

I just thought it was completely weird that Frost was hanging around enjoying her "first Valentine's Day" being a life coach and drinking with absolutely no mention of Caitlin. Is she enjoying a rest, working on a theory in Frost's head, doesn't want to do Valentine's because she's not had the best luck in love? I know it's been on going all season but it was especially noticeable for me in a romantically themed episode and one that already brought up a lot about consent and violation.

I would personally have used COIE to change the status quo and either merge them or split them up. I can see the Mirror verse as a way to do that but I don't know that they're interested given the lack of showing how awkward at best it is to share a body so far. Even then I'm not sure they'd want one of them to leave semi permanently when Caitlin is still better for exposition but they clearly enjoy writing more for Frost. LOT did a pretty good storyline about the ups and downs of a shared body/lifeforce with Firestorm in S3 and this show also wrote those issues so it can be done

What happens this season and early next probably depends a lot of what DP is capable of doing physically (even with a stunt double) and what they plan for her maternity leave. Whether it's a brief exit storyline like Cisco's or just absent without explanation like Ralph. 

[adora721]

On 2/18/2020 at 3:37 AM, Starry said:

What if Caitlin falls in love again? Does she share the guy with Frost?

Here's another question: What if Killer Frost is a lesbian? What if Eva McCullough sparks some romantic interest in KF and she decides to pursue a relationship with Eva or some other woman? How does Caity reconcile that? 

Here's an article positing that question and more.

Here's an excerpt from another article about KF and love:

"On who might be Caitlin and/or Frost’s One True Pairing

Panabaker: "Personally, I think Caitlin’s One True Pairing was Ronnie [Raymond, Robbie Amell]. I still hold out hope he didn’t die in the particle accelerator explosion — even though I’m pretty sure he did. I just love Robbie and I love that character and I feel like they are meant to be together. As for Frost, do we even know that she has an OTP? Let’s be honest. I can see Caitlin marrying Ronnie and living happily ever after. Do we see that for Killer Frost? I don’t think so. It would be something fun to explore."

Wallace: "It’s a running joke in the writers' room that always gets cut and that is Frost has a wild crush on the Judd Nelson character from The Breakfast Club. At some point, we’ll get that in."

[phoenics]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:39 PM, adora721 said:

Here's another question: What if Killer Frost is a lesbian? What if Eva McCullough sparks some romantic interest in KF and she decides to pursue a relationship with Eva or some other woman? How does Caity reconcile that? 

Here's an article positing that question and more.

Here's an excerpt from another article about KF and love:

"On who might be Caitlin and/or Frost’s One True Pairing

Panabaker: "Personally, I think Caitlin’s One True Pairing was Ronnie [Raymond, Robbie Amell]. I still hold out hope he didn’t die in the particle accelerator explosion — even though I’m pretty sure he did. I just love Robbie and I love that character and I feel like they are meant to be together. As for Frost, do we even know that she has an OTP? Let’s be honest. I can see Caitlin marrying Ronnie and living happily ever after. Do we see that for Killer Frost? I don’t think so. It would be something fun to explore."

Wallace: "It’s a running joke in the writers' room that always gets cut and that is Frost has a wild crush on the Judd Nelson character from The Breakfast Club. At some point, we’ll get that in."

Based on how Panabaker was constantly pimping SB in the press junkets and interviews, even once RIGHT IN FRONT of Candice, whilst the interviewer had to bring up SnowStorm because DP refused to, this is laughable.

Maybe she should have spent more time lobbying to get RA back permanently over trying to snatch CP's lead status and Iris' status as Barry's love interest, she'd have a coherent storyline with Ronnie instead of the ridiculous crap she's given because the character no longer has a coherent story purpose anymore.

[Starry]

I may not care about how it happened but I am happy they dealt away with the issue of Caitlin and Frost sharing the same body. Now one of them needs to leave for a while (or forever) though. I am pretty sure Eric likes Frost more so good luck to Caitlin.

[Trini]

I'm guessing they were always planning the split for Season 7. Caitlin/Frost goes away in Season 6, and in the premiere of Season 7 both return in two different bodies *somehow* separated by Dr. Tannhauser. That would have made slightly more sense than headaches then two bodies.