Caitlin Snow

[Trini]

Hey, I actually like the new Killer Frost costume, and it's kinda fun to see Panabaker chew scenery as a villain, but I can't get behind how they decided to do the character in the laziest way possible.

From this article:

Quote

One recurring question as pertains to Killer Frost is: Why do Caitlin’s post-Flashpoint powers, when unbridled, steer her toward evil? When that isn’t the case with most anyone else?

“I had a lot of conversations with the writers, particularly around Episode 7 [‘Killer Frost’], which was Kevin Smith’s episode,” Panabaker answers, “and the way that this has been explained to me is that it’s almost like there’s this dark person inside of her who’s itching to get let out. It’s like an addict, almost, this person who craves the malice and the harm that she can do to people. Caitlin, with the help of the necklace and the cuffs, was able to keep that in check, but now the Killer Frost inside her has become a too strong and too powerful.”

Yeah, that doesn't really explain anything, or why this dark persona is linked to her powers. Now, if they had just shown Caitlin gradually growing 'colder' and more malicious as the season went on, and actually gave her some motivation to become evil, I might have been fine with this storyline.

[KirkB]

Yeah, nice try Danielle, but that doesn't actually count as an explanation. Caitlin is, unless I am forgetting someone, literally the only person in the history of the show whose personality has been altered by getting powers. Blackout was already a criminal and the guy who turned into metal was already a bully, the particle accelerator explosion didn't change their personalities it just gave them more capacity for violence. Barry's inherent humanity and desire to help people may have been magnified but it was not created out of whole cloth. Martin and his brother were thugs, and once they could control the weather they were still thugs who could throw lightning. Even Cisco hasn't changed as a person, in spite of the fact he can see the past and future and through dimensions and that should really mess with his head. Only Caitlin Snow got superpowers and has inexplicably changed from a nice, sweet person into a heartless monster, unless of course there is an upcoming episode which is going to reveal Caitlin was secretly a serial killer all along.

Edited May 3, 2017 by KirkB

[Airraz0r]

I feel like the writers & show runners didn't do a good enough to give a better explanation about Caitlin this season. They knew she was having so much trauma throughout her life & it's not being addressed when it should've been, thus my frustration with her development. Very frustrating to say the least, and it's not Panabaker's fault.

[johntfs]

My take on Caitlin Snow is that she's always been, and had to be, the Good Girl.  She's conformed to the expectations of parents, teachers, other authority figures and never allowed herself, or been allowed to truly express her own desires.  Ronnie was the closest she came to that and he's gone.  So her negative emotions, selfish desires and less-than-worthy impulses have been bottled up to fester over time.  Killer Frost gives her an outlet for those things, a way to express all that nastiness without the Good Girl being blamed.  I think it's one reason Killer Frost comes off a bit playful and childish.  She's the Caitlin that draws on the walls, runs with scissors and make a mess on the floor.  Dr. Caitlin Snow took an oath to do no harm.  As Killer Frost she gets to some harm.

[Trini]

I think the past 2 episodes have shown that Caitlin isn't strictly necessary to the team. (She had little screentime and importance to the plots.) The showrunners clearly want to do Killer Frost, and Danielle likes playing her; I don't know why they didn't just have Caitlin (gradually?) go to the dark side - or make her an anti-hero.

I actually don't want to lose the only other female member of Team Flash, but the show already has a hard time incorporating everyone effectively; and now that Harry is back, I think that will make things worse.

[KirkB]

I was originally going to do this in the episode thread but I decided it was more appropriate here.

In the original timeline Caitlin Snow did not have powers. In fact, I swear I remember a first season episode where she checked herself for what be come to be known as the metagene and she didn't have it, so she didn't have to worry about the dark matter explosion affecting her. Then come Flashpoint, wherein Caitlin Snow of that alternate universe still did not have powers, unlike Wally and all the other people, and yet when things get changed to the new normal Caitlin suddenly has a 'mean roommate'.

Now, there certainly is precedent in comics for getting superpowers turning them into different people, in some cases literally, but there is usually a reason for it. Bruce Banner, who came up in the Don't Run thread, for example, was an abused child and had a fractured mind before the gamma exposure. It was radiation which freed the personalities and they manifested in different versions of the Hulk. As far as we've been told Caitlin doesn't have anything like that in her background. Plus, Killer Frost is being treated less like a part of Caitlin and more like a completely different person.

It probably would have been better to say changes in her body chemistry caused her to be meaner or less inhibited instead and she needed to get her powers under control to stabilize.

Unless they wanted to run with the idea that Flashpoint somehow led to the spirit/essence/whatever of Killer Frost from one of the other Earths possessing her. Which makes about as much sense as what they're doing, I suppose.

Edited December 7, 2017 by KirkB

[Trini]

So I'm assuming that Caitlin gets her powers back, one way or another, by the end of the season. But will Killer Frost come back too? I'm hoping she doesn't; mainly because the whole dual personality thing was dumb to begin with, and perhaps soon they can actually have Caitlin be in control of her powers - which seemed to be the plan at the end of Season 3.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Trini

[adora721]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

So I'm assuming that Caitlin gets her powers back, one way or another, by the end of the season. But will Killer Frost come back too? I hoping she doesn't; mainly because the whole dual personality thing was dumb to begin with, and perhaps soon they can actually have Caitlin be in control of her powers - which seemed to be the plan at the end of Season 3.

I think the KF personality was a way for the writers to have Caitlin harm her friends, murder, attempt to murder, aid and abet murder and yet have Caitlin remain "pure as the driven" Snow. It's the ultimate free pass for any and all evil behavior; Caitlin is Teflon. Why would TPTB let that go?

 

Caitlin Snow's Theme Song

Edited April 20, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

Her actions in this past episode, reminded me of something.

In 3x12, Barry asked Caitlin to use her powers to help Iris, but Caitlin refused. I know she was scared of her powers and what they would do, but it's her dialogue in that scene. She said "I couldn't if I wanted to." So even if she had control over her powers, she still didn't want to help Iris?

I think it's a tie between that episode and 4x20 on Caitln's biggest selfish moments.

[Trini]

19 hours ago, DearEvette said:

This is my biggest takeaway with Caitlin since about season 2.  Their big ideas for Caitlin has been 1) to make her Doctor of Everything 2) shuffle her into a chemistry-less romance with the new guy of the season (I was rather surprised they didn't go there this season with Ralph) 3) deploy her Killer frost persona in the most baffling, contradictory, least logical way possible 4) make her selfish and betray the team.

I agree they did retcon her, but that has nothing to do with Iris. To imply that her KF abilities are not a because of the particle accelerator is an yet another iteration of they have no idea what they are doing when writing her KF persona.  KF was potentially a great plot element to propel Caitlin forward in her role and they've completely botched it.

I just don't get it. They purposely put 'Caitlin Snow' in the cast knowing she had a destiny to be Killer Frost, so there should have been at least an outline of a plan for the 'Caitlin-to-Killer Frost' arc, but ... I guess not. The PTB just seem too afraid to give up Caitlin Snow, Plot Device.

They already showed Evil Killer Frost from Earth-2, so they didn't have to do that again for E-1 Caitlin. They could have (like with Cisco) had her struggle with accepting and developing her powers, then be able to control them and use them for good. And if they still wanted to do Killer Frost -Villain, while still wanting to keep Caitlin on the Team, they could have just let her go evil then set up/play out her redemption arc. -- Which seemed to be the idea at the end of Season 3; but then Season 4 with both Caitlin and KF working for Amunet and the retcons happened. Even the latest retcon of Killer Frost being around since Caitlin's childhood could have worked, but it's clearly an undeveloped idea thrown in at the last minute.

There's obviously a Caitlin problem, but I think it's a part of the larger problem of the show shortchanging its female characters. (Because you can see how they put in the time/effort to develop Cisco, Ralph, and Harry(for the 3rd time!).)

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

 

They already showed Evil Killer Frost from Earth-2, so they didn't have to do that again for E-1 Caitlin. They could have (like with Cisco) had her struggle with accepting and developing her powers, then be able to control them and use them for good. And if they still wanted to do Killer Frost -Villain, while still wanting to keep Caitlin on the Team, they could have just let her go evil then set up/play out her redemption arc. -- Which seemed to be the idea at the end of Season 3; but then Season 4 with both Caitlin and KF working for Amunet and the retcons happened. Even the latest retcon of Killer Frost being around since Caitlin's childhood could have worked, but it's clearly an undeveloped idea thrown in at the last minute.

 

YES YES YES!!!! I don't understand why they didn't have Caitlin go evil on her own. Making the powers affect her has been very messy. They could've had go evil and then do a redemption storyline this season. Of course, this couldn't be done as the show is afraid to break up the team dynamic.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

YES YES YES!!!! I don't understand why they didn't have Caitlin go evil on her own. Making the powers affect her has been very messy. They could've had go evil and then do a redemption storyline this season.

Because that would mean Caitlin actually bearing some accountability and that can never happen. Caitlin Snow is Peak White Feminiity, in every ugly definition of the concept. She can literally conspire to murder (HR) but she will be regarded as blameless. The laws of the universe (Flashpoint causing her to be born with powers before Flashpoint happened) will be bent and distorted to vindicate her. People - specifically black women - will be sacrificed to lift her up. From Iris's life being classed as "equally" important as Caitlin's super-speshul-meta-powers-made-her-evil-until-they-didn't, to Caitlin's repeated efforts to sabotage Iris's rescue out of her own selfishness, and finally her decision to help Iris's murderer, being ignored by everyone on the show.

Wally West was practically cursed out because he was having nightmares. Barry jilted Iris because she didn't appreciate his misguided rescue efforts. But not one bad word was uttered to Caitlin except by the white man who was in love with her. 

 

Quote

Of course, this couldn't be done as the show is afraid to break up the team dynamic.

It has nothing to do with the team dynamic. If anything, it's the opposite. Caitlin is literally being kept on this show by the power of Star Labs and "Team Flash". Apart from maybe Harrison Wells, Everyone else has a connection and importance to Barry independent of being "Work colleagues". Joe is family and colleague at CCPD, Wally was family and his protegee, Iris is family, love of his life, and should be a case source via CCPN if the show ever wrote her properly. Cisco is his best friend, and meta-partner. Even Cecile is still connected to him via the judiciary side of the "law and order" aspect of super-heroing. (Remember when we thought that the extrajudicial meta jail was going to become an issue. Good times).

Caitlin has no purpose on this show except as "Team Flash". She would have been best served as a Heel Face Turn, and taken out of the show in season 1 - or maybe for effect, in season 3. The only purpose she serves is to be a white girl for certain members of the audience to "relate" to. 

[adora721]

For the first two seasons, I liked Caitlin Snow and had sympathy for her pains and losses. But she has no self-awareness or wisdom gleaned from those experiences.

She's had trauma and an evil second personality, but has never sought therapy until two episodes ago.  Ironically, she recommended therapy for WA. Sheesh!

She has a best friend in Cisco, who's an engineering genius, but she sought technology from a slave trafficker, Amunet Black.  Similary, in S3, Cisco and Julian created tech for her, but she was inconsistent in using it or charging it. 

I blame the writers, obviously, but like others have stated, it seems like they didn't have a plan for Caitlin season to season. I find that hard to fathom since she's a main character. It also seems odd since DP was hired by AJK, who was DP's friend. Why wouldn't AJK have made a clear trajectory for his friend DP's character for the first three seasons and beyond?

It feels like they were waiting for something to happen that never happened and they are scrambling to make up a plan. And until they have Caitlin or Killer Frost actually redeem herself, I'll continue to dislike her. And until they have a clear plan for her character, I'll continue to find her uninteresting, too.

Unlike some, I never liked Leonard Snart, but the writers made me invested in his story; Leo felt like a whole person. Caitlin feels like a ghost, a shadow of a character who's not tethered to anyone or anything. She's a blob of a character, whose only consistency is being inconsistent.  And I keep watching her scenes in hopes the writing will make sense one day, but I'm losing hope of that ever happening.

Edited May 28, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

An interesting opinion piece on feminism in the Arrowverse; page 4 focuses on Caitlin Snow: http://www.withanaccent.com/2018/06/08/white-feminism-is-killing-the-arrowverse/4/

[Katsullivan]

On 5/27/2018 at 9:36 PM, adora721 said:

It feels like they were waiting for something to happen that never happened

I wonder what that is?

6 hours ago, adora721 said:

An interesting opinion piece on feminism in the Arrowverse; page 4 focuses on Caitlin Snow: http://www.withanaccent.com/2018/06/08/white-feminism-is-killing-the-arrowverse/4/

Wonderful article. Really summarized everything that was wrong with the character and added some more detail. 

Here's my best part:

Quote

Caitlin and/or Killer Frost has knowingly endangered Wally and Iris, tried to murder Barry and Cisco, kidnapped Cecile (Danielle Nicolet), and helped Savitar (Grant Gustin) murder H.R. (Tom Cavanagh) – even more unfortunate because she thought it was Iris – and willingly worked with a slave-trader. Nobody holds her accountable – and if they do, it’s for a few seconds at most. Unlike practically every other character on the show, people rarely express their disappointment with Caitlin; there is never any expectation that she should make amends or do better. Whenever she expresses guilt, either the narrative will justify her actions, or someone will pat her on the head and tell her that it wasn’t her fault. And it’s not like the show doesn’t know these things are bad – when Wally kept a secret that endangered Iris, he got scolded and kicked off the team; when Caitlin did the same thing, Barry practically gave her a hug. So the implication is that bad things are only bad unless Caitlin does them.

[adora721]

Let me preface this by saying that I wasn't on this forum back in the beginning, so apologies if this has already been discussed.

So, I've been re-watching the show from the pilot, and I noticed something that I consider very strange about Caitlin - she's overly attached to Barry after only knowing him a short time. In "Power Outage" (1x7), FauxWells dictates to Gideon that it's been 311 days since the PA explosion. According to Google, that's about 10.2 months, and Barry was in a coma for 9 months of those 311 days. So, the team has only known an awake Barry for 1.2 months by this episode.

Now, I understand love at first sight, which is really infatuation at first sight, but Caitlin treating Barry like he's as important to her as Ronnie was still odd. She declares that, "I've already lost one person I cared about in this building. I don't want to lose another." Sure, she uses the word "care", but the other person was her fiance, Ronnie, so using "care" is equating the love she had for Ronnie with Barry. That's a weird equating of these two men.

Also, in the scene in which Barry tells her how he feels about losing his powers, it seemed like she moved forward as if to kiss him. (Note that Barry didn't have a kiss in mind since he didn't lean in at all; his mind was on getting his powers back). Why did she do that in that moment when he's sad about losing his powers?  Especially since she knows that Barry has had Iris on his one-track mind for as long as she's known him (1.2 months).

Additionally, Caitlin had been scolding Barry about meeting up with Iris as The Flash in previous episodes. On the surface, Cait's interest in his clandestine meetings seems like she's just looking out for him , but it also seems intrusive and possessive, too. Like, she was reading Iris' blog and saw that Iris sent The Flash a message to meet up. Caitlin was keeping tabs on his meetings with Iris. Why?

I know some will say this was ship tease, but don't you need both people to show romantic interest for a ship tease? If not, then it's very one-sided on her part alone. And again, after only 1.2 months of knowing Barry. Perhaps she was transferring her feelings for Ronnie onto Barry, which would explain the swiftness of her seeming attachment. However, she does the same thing in season 2 with falling hard for Faux Jay Garrick; she latches on to Jay really quickly.

It seems like she has an unhealthy pattern of falling for someone she barely knows. And yet, the show hasn't addressed that. I mean, the writing changed that in S3, but then again, KF aids Savitar just because he's a version of Barry. We still don't have complete reasons for why KF would want to help kill Iris, unless it goes back to S1 in which Caitlin displayed a very quick and unhealthy attachment to Barry that was unrequited. So, aiding Savitar in Iris' murder was KF's revenge on Caitlin's behalf or revenge on Barry for snubbing Caitlin in S1.

I've seen some SB fans say that SB is built on some deep, meaningful friendship and connection. It's built on 1.2 months of quicksand.

Edited June 18, 2018 by adora721

[VCRTracking]

I can take or leave Caitlin Snow but most of the time she leaves me cold(no pun intended). Can I ask her notfans: Barring her leaving the show or her turning completely evil and be killed or put in prison, what could the Flash writers done differently to make you actually like Caitlin(I should also ask this about Earth 1 Laurel haters on the Arrow board too)?

[adora721]

Two words: Grow up!

Caitlin needs to grow past her selfishness and unwillingness to change for the better or take responsibility for her evil actions. I used to like her, but she doesn't improve with time and experience. She gets worse. I have zero sympathy for selfish people who refuse to let go of their selfishness, but expect others to accommodate them.

[paulvdb]

I mostly liked Caitlin before they gave her powers and a second personality to go with it. So I'd say they should have kept her non-powered if they wanted me to like her. Or at least not give her an evil alternate personality to go with those powers.

If they needed an evil Caitlin they should have kept the Earth 2 version alive or maybe get one from another Earth.

[Starry]

For me they just need to stop having her do selfish and evil things and get away with it while everyone else's flaws and mistakes get highlighted. It's a very manipulative tactic that makes me despise the character. It also reflects badly on the team because it looks like they have double standards/no moral code. This applies to both Caitlin and Killer Frost.

I don't think I will ever be a fan but at least I won't roll my eyes every time she's on screen.

I also believe the writers need to either A) turn her into a villain or B) depower her. I was never interested in Killer Frost, Central City's newest hero. It's a waste of money. Honestly, I think the only metas on the team should be Barry and Cisco. The ideal would be not constantly relying on STAR Labs at all but whatever...

 

On 18/6/2018 at 5:19 PM, adora721 said:

Also, in the scene in which Barry tells her how he feels about losing his powers, it seemed like she moved forward as if to kiss him. (Note that Barry didn't have a kiss in mind since he didn't lean in at all; his mind was on getting his powers back). Why did she do that in that moment when he's sad about losing his powers?  Especially since she knows that Barry has had Iris on his one-track mind for as long as she's known him (1.2 months).

I don't think she was about to kiss him, maybe hug him or say something more but since the writers/director had her be interrupted for no reason they made the scene open to interpretation. On screen Snowbarry wasn't built on a "connection" or " surprising chemistry", but on weird directing choices like this one.

I think Caitlin projecting her Ronnie feels onto Barry and Zoom is a good theory but since the writers don't care that's all we have, theories and a female character being unnecessarily thrown at too many men in the span of two seasons.

[BeautifulFlower]

14 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I can take or leave Caitlin Snow but most of the time she leaves me cold(no pun intended). Can I ask her notfans: Barring her leaving the show or her turning completely evil and be killed or put in prison, what could the Flash writers done differently to make you actually like Caitlin(I should also ask this about Earth 1 Laurel haters on the Arrow board too)?

Honestly, nothing. Caitlin is just a boring character. In my opinion, she has no depth to her. Since the beginning, she has been the team doctor and occasional science exposition. She exists to be nothing but a plot device. The writers don't know what to do with her. They keep trying, but failing. Now we know most of her vocal fans only are about her being with Barry, but I have seen a few not care about Snowbarry. From what I read, they find Caitlin only interesting when she's Killer Frost. 

 

On 6/18/2018 at 10:19 AM, adora721 said:

 

I've seen some SB fans say that SB is built on some deep, meaningful friendship and connection. It's built on 1.2 months of quicksand.

I don't know what show they're watching. Barry and Caitlin hung out together once. All the other times, Cisco was with them. I'm a show not tell kind of person. I need the writers to show that Caitlin is his best friend and vice versa. Because, nowhere in this entire series have they felt like best friends. Actually, Caitlin doesn't feel like anyone's friend on this show except for Cisco. However, friendships with her are forever tainted. Season 3 still happened. Plus, she has shown to not trust them enough to come with her problems. Seriously, she went to Amunet for 6 months and was willingly going to work with Amunet again to get Killer Frost. Why do they continue trust her is beyond me?

[VCRTracking]

Some of these answers reminded me of the scene with Annie's "Disney Face" from Community.

Edited June 20, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Kate45]

On 6/19/2018 at 11:45 PM, VCRTracking said:

I can take or leave Caitlin Snow but most of the time she leaves me cold(no pun intended). Can I ask her notfans: Barring her leaving the show or her turning completely evil and be killed or put in prison, what could the Flash writers done differently to make you actually like Caitlin(I should also ask this about Earth 1 Laurel haters on the Arrow board too)?

Just to add my 2 cents. I would say I am meh on Caitlin.  I don’t hate her, and I don’t love her. She’s just there, and if she left I would be upset. 

She’s not that interesting, and the worst part is that the writers can tell she’s not interesting. They don’t seem motivated to write for her. I’m not sure that someone could persuade me otherwise. Even with the KF storyline, large parts of it made no sense. They’ve retconned it twice at this point, and I hope that we are getting to a storyline that sticks.

Caitlin is written as a plot device. Her educational background is the perfect example. She started show with 2 doctorates: one in biochemistry and the other in genetics. Then, to keep her involved with the plots she later become a medical doctor and then later a surgeon. According to the show, she’s in her 20s. That’s not how education works. Even if she graduated really young, she still wouldn’t be out practicing by 25. Actually, even younger since she has been working at SL for 3 years when the show began. I don’t know if the problem is that writers are unaware that having a PhD is not the same as being medical doctor or being a surgeon, or that they don’t care enough to find out. 

In the end, I think the writer’s exuberance is matched by the fandom, since Caitlin doesn’t seem to have many fans who like her as an individual. They just want her with Barry, because they don’t like the alternative. She doesn’t seem to bring much buzz to the show. At least, that’s my view. 

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

 

In the end, I think the writer’s exuberance is matched by the fandom, since Caitlin doesn’t seem to have many fans who like her as an individual. They just want her with Barry, because they don’t like the alternative. She doesn’t seem to bring much buzz to the show. At least, that’s my view. 

I seen someone say this: How can people expect the writers to treat Caitlin better if her fans don't? When I look at Caitlin fans, I get three categories.

1. You have the ones who only care about her being with Barry.

2. You have the few one who actually care about her

3. You have the ones who only like her because they don't like Iris. These ones like to try to "advocate" for Caitlin, but can't seem to do that without bashing Iris.

I agree with you on the buzz part. I don't think she brings much buzz. I've been wondering this. Is it me or did the promotion team tried to paint 4x05 as Iris centric as a way to get people to watch a Caitlin centric episode?

[adora721]

Now that I'm re-watching the so-called "SB episodes" like 1x12 and 1x7, I've come to believe that Caitlin did have romantic feelings for Barry, but they were completely one-sided.

I also believe that the writers were using this to show how similar Barry and Iris are in that they are both oblivious to the romantic attentions of another person. In 1x12, Caitlin is looking all starry-eyed while telling Barry they should find someone new to be crazy about; he seems awkward, but doesn't pick up on the hint that she's talking about her. He then jets off to give Iris the Iron Heights breakout story and then goes to make a lunch date with Linda Park. For those who think it unrealistic that Iris didn't know Barry was in love with her, here's Barry not knowing that Caitlin had romantic feelings for him either.

Would I call Caitlin's feelings "love"? Nope. I think it was part transference from grieving Ronnie to Barry and also a bit needy and unhealthy since it continued even after Ronnie was shown to be alive. I didn't like how wishy-washy she was about Ronnie and then clung to Faux Jay so quickly. She has attachment issues for which she needs therapy.

Also, in 1x13, she puts Ronnie/Stein on psychological drugs used for DID; they even use the phrase, "Dissociate Identity Disorder". However, Cait doesn't think to do the same for herself once KF is in her life. Cait is not terribly self-aware; let's hope they fix this in S5.

[ruby24]

I actually think that was Danielle Panabaker attempting to make it come across that way, so that there was a chance she'd be bumped to main love interest for the lead. She'd occasionally tease a possible Barry/Caitlin pairing in interviews during the first season too.

[adora721]

38 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I actually think that was Danielle Panabaker attempting to make it come across that way, so that there was a chance she'd be bumped to main love interest for the lead. She'd occasionally tease a possible Barry/Caitlin pairing in interviews during the first season too.

I think there was a two-pronged effort. The first was to show Cait having feelings for Barry (there were reaction shots of Cait reacting to Barry going on the date with Linda, there was Cait asking about Barry seeing Iris, there was Cait reacting to Barry taking her by the hand, etc.) These happened on the show with director, producer, and writer approval. The other effort was DP trying to make SB popular to encourage an overthrow of CP as the love interest.

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I actually think that was Danielle Panabaker attempting to make it come across that way, so that there was a chance she'd be bumped to main love interest for the lead. She'd occasionally tease a possible Barry/Caitlin pairing in interviews during the first season too.

 

 

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

I think there was a two-pronged effort. The first was to show Cait having feelings for Barry (there were reaction shots of Cait reacting to Barry going on the date with Linda, there was Cait asking about Barry seeing Iris, there was Cait reacting to Barry taking her by the hand, etc.) These happened on the show with director, producer, and writer approval. The other effort was DP trying to make SB popular to encourage an overthrow of CP as the love interest.

This is why I side eye DP so much. She knew what she was doing by baiting the shippers.  This may be a stretch, but her actions lowkey enables some to keep harassing Candice.

[VCRTracking]

I don't like this. I don't know Danielle Panabaker or how she gets along with Candice. I've seen this on so many show boards. Hating actors because of their characters.

[ruby24]

25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't like this. I don't know Danielle Panabaker or how she gets along with Candice. I've seen this on so many show boards. Hating actors because of their characters.

Candice unfollowed her on instagram and twitter a few months ago. That's pretty clear, imo.

[Starry]

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

Now that I'm re-watching the so-called "SB episodes" like 1x12 and 1x7, I've come to believe that Caitlin did have romantic feelings for Barry, but they were completely one-sided.

I also believe that the writers were using this to show how similar Barry and Iris are in that they are both oblivious to the romantic attentions of another person. In 1x12, Caitlin is looking all starry-eyed while telling Barry they should find someone new to be crazy about; he seems awkward, but doesn't pick up on the hint that she's talking about her. He then jets off to give Iris the Iron Heights breakout story and then goes to make a lunch date with Linda Park. For those who think it unrealistic that Iris didn't know Barry was in love with her, here's Barry not knowing that Caitlin had romantic feelings for him either.

I think comparing Barry's feelings for Iris to Caitlin's feelings for Barry is a stretch. Barry had loved Iris for years. She had been oblivious to his love for years. I too wouldn't call what Caitlin felt for Barry "love". I wouldn't even say she had "feelings". At most, she was attracted to him, which is why I don't believe the show was trying to say that Barry was as oblivious as Iris to someone's affection.

Yes, they gave Caitlin those reaction shots in 1x12 but they also had her push Barry on Linda. She wouldn't have done that if we were meant to believe Barry was the person she was crazy about. She also didn't display any signs of jealousy towards Linda in the following episode. She and Cisco were giving Barry sex tips like a couple of "bros", lol. I believe those long reaction shots were nothing more than the director's way to make the audience believe that there was "chemistry" and "potential" there.

Caitlin was never jealous of Iris either. I'm a huge Westallen fan but Caitlin telling Barry to not mess with Iris and Eddie's relationship was good advice. I am not mad that he didn't listen but she wasn't wrong. Barry exploiting Iris' attraction to the Flash was sketchy. Caitlin was actually very supportive when Barry told her he had confessed his love to Iris. She praised his honesty. She was the one who first noticed the way Iris looked at Barry in s2 and was thrilled when they got engaged.

While Killer Frost siding with Savitar to kill Iris for no apparent reason (we never found out what Savitar promised her) was awful I never got the impression that it was done out of jealousy. I think she hated Barry and wanted him to suffer. In 3x22 Killer Frost was the one who asked Savitar if he was really sure he wanted to go all the way, reminding him that Iris was the woman he once loved.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 5/27/2018 at 8:36 PM, adora721 said:

 

 I blame the writers, obviously, but like others have stated, it seems like they didn't have a plan for Caitlin season to season. I find that hard to fathom since she's a main character. It also seems odd since DP was hired by AJK, who was DP's friend. Why wouldn't AJK have made a clear trajectory for his friend DP's character for the first three seasons and beyond?

 

Well......Caitlin was originally suppose to be older and a love interest for Eobard. AJK changed the role once DP was cast. I think she was suppose to be a one season character. We all know they weren't planning on making Earth-1 Caitlin Killer Frost. Didn't they admit they only made Caitlin Killer Frost because of fan demands?

 

Even if she was planned to be more than 1 season, it's time for her to go.

[adora721]

18 hours ago, Starry said:

I think comparing Barry's feelings for Iris to Caitlin's feelings for Barry is a stretch. Barry had loved Iris for years. She had been oblivious to his love for years. I too wouldn't call what Caitlin felt for Barry "love". I wouldn't even say she had "feelings". At most, she was attracted to him, which is why I don't believe the show was trying to say that Barry was as oblivious as Iris to someone's affect

I understand that Caitlin's reactions are open to individual interpretation. However, there is text (what's said and done) and subtext (what's not said/reactions). I think there was enough subtext in how Caitlin reacted in each of these situations that suggested that she had feelings of romantic attraction for Barry. I've been WA forever since the pilot  and am not looking for evidence that SB is real, but there is evidence that CS had romantic feelings for Barry, which were not reciprocated.

For example, she invites herself to Barry's pseudo stakeout at the karaoke bar in 1x12, and she's dressed to the nines. Why? Cause she was hoping for him to see her in a different way. She imbibes drink after vodka drink. Why? My guess is she was trying to get some liquid courage to make some kind of move on Barry or to let him know she was romantically interested in him. Once she knows Barry got Linda's number, of course she's going to play it off like she wants him to call her, and yet she still suggests that Barry, "Deserves a peek at her goods for the good things he does." Yeah, she was drunk, but as they say, "In vino veritas."

In 1x13, once Barry tells her and Cisco at Jitters that he thinks Linda's awesome and he's going out with her on another date, Cait has no choice but to play it cool (pun intended).  Plus, that episode is about Ronnie, and the writing switches gears to make her care about Ronnie again, which is like whiplash in regards to her feelings about him.

In a later episode, she has a big reaction to Barry taking her hand to lead her somewhere. It could be DP overacting, but they kept that reaction shot in the episode. Anyway, I'm just saying there there is subtext to Caitlin's behavior towards Barry; as I said in another post, she equated her caring for Barry to her caring for Ronnie in "Power Outage" after only knowing Barry for 1.2 months at that point. That's just weird if she had no romantic feelings for him.

Edited June 24, 2018 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, adora721 said:

It could be DP overacting, but they kept that reaction shot in the episode.

Very good summary of the shit-show that is SB, and the actress and showrunners's complicity in planting, and nurturing that seed. 

[adora721]

18 hours ago, Starry said:

I think she hated Barry and wanted him to suffer. In 3x22 Killer Frost was the one who asked Savitar if he was really sure he wanted to go all the way, reminding him that Iris was the woman he once loved.

Why would KF hate Barry? Barry essentially created Killer Frost with Flashpoint. (Yes, I know that's been retconned, but that's what was true in S3.) So, hating Barry for creating her would make no sense; she should be grateful instead. And, if she hated Barry, why work with Barry's clone, Savitar? 

Caitlin scolding Barry for meeting Iris as the Flash could be interpreted two ways: Wise advice to a friend or  a jealous woman trying to keep a man she's interested in from another woman. As for supporting Barry and Iris' budding romance  in S2 and S3, what else could she do at that point? And if you notice, she only hugged Barry, not Iris after the engagement announcement. And at the housewarming, she was next in line ,after Joe, to hug Iris, but she didn't. Instead, Iris hugged Cisco who was right behind Caitlin.

[Starry]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

For example, she invites herself to Barry's pseudo stakeout at the karaoke bar in 1x12, and she's dressed to the nines. Why? Cause she was hoping for him to see her in a different way. She imbibes drink after vodka drink. Why? My guess is she was trying to get some liquid courage to make some kind of move on Barry or to let him know she was romantically interested in him. Once she knows Barry got Linda's number, of course she's going to play it off like she wants him to call her, and yet she still suggests that Barry, "Deserves a peek at her goods for the good things he does." Yeah, she was drunk, but as they say, "In vino veritas."

She was trying to move on after Ronnie. Cisco accused her of having no life and his words did sting. She went to a bar not to Barry's house. One could make the argument that she dressed that way to maybe find someone new to flirt with, exchange numbers with, etc. at the bar. Your guess, not the narrative, is that she got drunk and put on a nice dress for Barry. She didn't make a move on him the entire time. Yes, she did say that Barry deserved to take a look for being a hero (gross!) but that was after she encouraged him to call Linda. No, Caitlin didn't have to do that because Barry didn't mention Linda to her at all. She was the one who brought her up.

 

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

In 1x13, once Barry tells her and Cisco at Jitters that he thinks Linda's awesome and he's going out with her on another date, Cait has no choice but to play it cool (pun intended).  Plus, that episode is about Ronnie, and the writing switches gears to make her care about Ronnie again, which is like whiplash in regards to her feelings about him.

Caitlin didn't have to play it cool. She could have had the reaction Iris had. Iris tried and failed to play it cool. Caitlin was just cool, lol. And "the episode was about Ronnie" is not a good "excuse" because for the Caitlin wants Barry but he's oblivious theory to have legs the writers can't showcase her "feelings" one episode and then forget about them for multiple episodes in a row. It has to happen on a consistent basis. They had an entire jealousy arc for Iris when Linda showed up.

 

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

In a later episode, she has a big reaction to Barry taking her hand to lead her somewhere. It could be DP overacting, but they kept that reaction shot in the episode.

Was that the shapeshifter episode? Because that's the only episode I remember with Barry taking Caitlin's hand. It was also the same episode that showed Caitlin being uncomfortable and having a negative reaction to Barry's touch after the kiss with Bates.

 

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Why would KF hate Barry? Barry essentially created Killer Frost with Flashpoint. (Yes, I know that's been retconned, but that's what was true in S3.) So, hating Barry for creating her would make no sense; she should be grateful instead. And, if she hated Barry, why work with Barry's clone, Savitar?

Killer Frost is just a mess. I don't know why she hated Barry but she did hate him. She tried to hurt him. She stabbed him. You say she should be grateful but she wasn't. Savitar is an evil clone who wanted Barry to suffer. That's why she would work with him (and because he promised her something but we never found out what it was...).

 

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin scolding Barry for meeting Iris as the Flash could be interpreted two ways: Wise advice to a friend or  a jealous woman trying to keep a man she's interested in from another woman. As for supporting Barry and Iris' budding romance  in S2 and S3, what else could she do at that point? And if you notice, she only hugged Barry, not Iris after the engagement announcement. And at the housewarming, she was next in line ,after Joe, to hug Iris, but she didn't. Instead, Iris hugged Cisco who was right behind Caitlin.

You decided that she wanted to keep Iris away from the man she wanted but the show didn't confirm that. Yes, if Barry didn't reciprocate Caitlin's affection there was nothing she could do at that point. Except she was presented as genuinely happy for Barry and Iris. There was no sadness, regret, wistfulness, nothing. You are comparing her to Barry but how can one not notice how differently Barry acted when Iris moved in with Eddie? When Eddie wanted to propose? It's night and day. Barry stopped interfering but you just knew that he was unhappy.

The Caitlin/Iris hug at the housewarming was cut but if you look closely you see them moving towards each other before it cuts to Iris and Cisco. They did hug.

Look, I completely agree that the show wanted the audience to see the Snowbarry potential. I just disagree that, in retrospect, it was anything deeper than a tease (and biased/unsure showrunners trying to immediately present an alternative to their interracial OTP). I don't believe that there's a plan, a grand design and that we're meant to take as canon that Caitlin has carried a torch all this time. They teased the ship in s1 through dialogue and directing choices but how am I supposed to take it seriously if they didn't build on it? After 1x19, there's nothing in canon that supports Caitlin's attraction to Barry. And said attraction didn't show up between 1x12 and 1x19 either. Long periods of time without a hint, then a small hint in ONE episode does not a story make.

By the way, there are Snowbarry fans that use this Caitlin has been in love with Barry and he didn't notice theory to trash Barry and Iris. Barry is so obsessed with Iris that he didn't notice sweet, nerdy Caitlin pining for him. And he's trash for that. Iris is the bitch who talked to Caitlin about her love for Barry and asked her to be her MOH. She's so selfish because she disregarded Caitlin's (non-existent) love for her man.

[adora721]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

You decided that she wanted to keep Iris away from the man she wanted but the show didn't confirm that.

Look, you are preaching to the choir here with me. I didn't decide anything regarding this; I'm simply stating there's more than one way to interpret Caitlin's actions and reasons. And  I do believe using Barry's obliviousness as a foil for Iris' obliviousness is a likely reason for all the ship tease/subtext moments.

It doesn't matter that there was supposed to be a hug; it was cut, why? The director and editor made a choice to not show it for a reason. Same with the engagement announcement where Cait only hugged Barry. 

ETA - Additionally in S4, Cait considered Iris only a "work friend" after working side-by-side and in-person with Iris in challenging and sometimes dangerous situations for almost three years, yet Cait hugged Felicity in 1x8, who she worked with sparingly and mostly long distance.  Speaking of 1x8, Cait was very curious as to why Felicity was in town and specifically asked if it was about being with Barry, as in dating Barry. Why ask that specific, bold, and kinda intrusive question if she's not romantically interested?  

Cait and Iris have talked about Ronnie a little and discussed Iris' budding romantic feelings for Barry, they each saved the other's life from Peekaboo and that earthquake meta, and they all went to a bar together along with Eddie, Barry, and Cisco. Joe invited Cisco and Cait to Christmas at his home that first season. Iris made dinner for Cait, Ronnie, Barry, and Joe when they brought Ronnie to stay at Joe's house. And yet Cait considers Iris a "work friend"? 

When Felicity visited in 1x8,  Cait said, "It's so good to have another woman to talk to."  What's Iris? Chopped liver? If anyone should be a "work friend" to Cait,  it should be Felicity.

There's a reason the showrunners set up this distance between these women. Sure, I'm speculating that Cait had feelings for Barry and was jealous of Iris, but I think the speculation is supported by the evidence in the show. As I said earlier, there was a two-pronged approach to the ship tease, some of it in your face and others were subtle.

When she became Killer Frost, she flirted with Savitar -  "Catilin and Barry at it again." I don't know what "it" she was talking about. She also called Savitar "handsome" or "pretty" and praised his suit as, "worthy of a god." And in the shape-shifter episode, she let faux Barry kiss her when she could have pulled back. And the hand episode was later on after Barry had proof of who Wells really was.

I don't share the SB belief that Barry is trash for not reciprocating Caitlin's feelings. I'm saying they might have a point that Caitlin Snow did have romantic feelings for Barry Allen even though it lead nowhere. And therein lies the rub - they made much ado about nothing in S1 and the SB fans can't let it go. And DP continued to support all that "nothing" until about just before season 4.

Edited June 24, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

I realized most of my post was about relationships, so I answered in that thread.

[Starry]

21 hours ago, adora721 said:

It doesn't matter that there was supposed to be a hug; it was cut, why? The director and editor made a choice to not show it for a reason. Same with the engagement announcement where Cait only hugged Barry. 

ETA - Additionally in S4, Cait considered Iris only a "work friend" after working side-by-side and in-person with Iris in challenging and sometimes dangerous situations for almost three years, yet Cait hugged Felicity in 1x8, who she worked with sparingly and mostly long distance.  Speaking of 1x8, Cait was very curious as to why Felicity was in town and specifically asked if it was about being with Barry, as in dating Barry. Why ask that specific, bold, and kinda intrusive question if she's not romantically interested? 

The director and editor didn't prioritize their scenes. There doesn't have to be a deeper in-show reason. The actual canon of the show doesn't support a rivalry between Caitlin and Iris.

So Caitlin not hugging Iris (or not being shown to hug Iris) means that she has a problem with Westallen but she can hug Felicity? Even though according to your interpretation she's bothered by Felicity too? The last time Felicity was in town it was because of Barry so I don't get why Caitlin assuming that she's in CC for Barry means that she's threatened.

Look, there are more hints about Caitlin being jealous of the women Cisco dated. She was MAD when she found out he kissed Lisa Snart, lol. One season later, she was still snotty towards Lisa.

 

21 hours ago, adora721 said:

There's a reason the showrunners set up this distance between these women. Sure, I'm speculating that Cait had feelings for Barry and was jealous of Iris, but I think the speculation is supported by the evidence in the show.

The speculation that Caitlin was attracted to Barry may be supported by their ship-teasing moments, rare as they may have been. I don't see anything supporting the speculation that Caitlin was jealous of Iris because of Barry. If the writers were planting seeds of a Caitlin/Iris rivalry, they'd be way more obvious. Distance doesn't necessarily mean rivalry. To me it just means that the show didn't care about a Caitlin/Iris friendship until s4. And the bachelorette party episode was written that way because Caitlin is the personification of white privilege. They couldn't acknowledge her bad deeds so they came up with that disgusting dialogue about Caitlin not confiding in Iris "because they were just work friends". No way white Caitlin should apologize for what she did to black Iris...

I think one could also make the argument that Caitlin has never tried to bond with Iris outside of the occasional episode because she is kind of a snob (her treatment of Jax in 2x04 supports that). Felicity is a woman in STEM so maybe she'd vibe better with her for that reason. I always assumed that what she said to Felicity, the part about being happy to have another woman to talk to, was in reference to having another woman in STAR Labs, one she could discuss the superhero business with.

 

22 hours ago, adora721 said:

As I said earlier, there was a two-pronged approach to the ship tease, some of it in your face and others were subtle.

I don't see the subtle hints as hints at all. And the in your face moments were too few and far in between to be a part of a larger narrative. They shouldn't have been there and exacerbated the fandom wars but mean nothing once you look at the bigger picture. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[adora721]

43 minutes ago, Starry said:

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

That I can do; good debate!

[Katsullivan]

On 24/06/2018 at 12:00 PM, adora721 said:

It doesn't matter that there was supposed to be a hug; it was cut, why? The director and editor made a choice to not show it for a reason.

Ship-teasing, basically.

Which begs the question of why the producers were invested in ship-teasing Snowbarry if they were genuinely pushing for Westallen to be the show OTP. 

There's a reason why the tone of the show changed with AK's departure and why Candice unfollowed DP so publicly. At this point, believing that there was never a SB agenda ---- that the entire ship was completely fabricated in the minds of fans and did not have any contextual or subtextual support? That's ostrich behaviour, IMO. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Which begs the question of why the producers were invested in ship-teasing Snowbarry if they were genuinely pushing for Westallen to be the show OTP.

I don't think they were; when any teasing has been sporadic and vague at best, and ended way before AJK left.

[Katsullivan]

19 minutes ago, Trini said:

I don't think they were; when any teasing has been sporadic and vague at best,

That's exactly what ship teasing is. Sporadic - bread crumbs for its shippers to last them from one tease to the next. Vague - to maintain plausible deniability on their own part. 

Quote

and ended way before AJK left.

Savitar/Killer Frost Team up in the 2nd half of season 3 with the undercurrent of innuendo? So no. 

[Trini]

20 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

That's exactly what ship teasing is. Sporadic - bread crumbs for its shippers to last them from one tease to the next. Vague - to maintain plausible deniability on their own part.

I disagree; if the relationship were actually endorsed they wouldn't be vague about it.

Quote

Savitar/Killer Frost Team up in the 2nd half of season 3 with the undercurrent of innuendo? So no. 

The same innuendo that Savitar himself shut down in the very next sentence? I don't count Caitlin -maybe, kinda, if you glance at it at the right angle- having unexpressed feelings for Barry, while Barry completely ignores her, as ship teasing.

If the standard is that low, then Cisco is actually Caitlin's subtextual OTP, since they've had more moments, dialog, and reciprocation than her and Barry.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

I disagree; if the relationship were actually endorsed they wouldn't be vague about it.

Endorsed by whom? DC? CWTV? Berlanti? Or AJK or the specific episode's director/writer?

If anything, a controversy over whether or not to go forward with WA is all the more reason for the plausible deniability I already mentioned. 

If the ship ends up taking off - they can point at the bread crumbs and say it was built up from the start. 

If the ship doesn't - then they can claim that it was all in the shippers's heads. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

The same innuendo that Savitar himself shut down in the very next sentence? 

Someone made the decision to include that innuendo. To put in the story, in the script, to keep it in post-editing. And to not offer any alternative explanation for KF's devotion to Savitar. 

I think the confusion here is analysing the story/characters like if they're real human beings with autonomy and not the product of a script-writing, acting and directing process. Everything in a story is put in there for a reason. 

[Trini]

Why would they even need plausible deniability? White male leads have multiple love interests all the time. If Barry/Caitlin was ever happening, I don't think anyone would have to search for ambiguous 'crumbs' -- it would be clear. 

 

36 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Someone made the decision to include that innuendo.

...Everything in a story is put in there for a reason. 

Of course; and someone also made the decision to refute that innuendo.

[Katsullivan]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

Why would they even need plausible deniability? White male leads have multiple love interests all the time. If Barry/Caitlin was ever happening, I don't think anyone would have to search for ambiguous 'crumbs' -- it would be clear. 

 

Compare how the show wrote Barry's relationship with Linda to Barry's relationship with Patty: which relationship propped Westallen, and which was an alternative to Westallen. Which relationship acted as a catalyst to Iris's feelings and POV --- and which relationship labelled Iris his sister, and basically wrote her off the show. 

If Barry/Caitlin ever happened, it would be endgame. There's a reason why the showrunners stopped at teasing. 

 

10 hours ago, Trini said:

Of course; and someone also made the decision to refute that innuendo.

Generally, credit isn't given for un-doing something that you did. Which goes back to what I just said about teasing. S/B should never have been teased if the showrunners were 100% invested in WA.

[Kate45]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Why would they even need plausible deniability? White male leads have multiple love interests all the time. If Barry/Caitlin was ever happening, I don't think anyone would have to search for ambiguous 'crumbs' -- it would be clear. 

Yes, especially on this show. Nothing is subtle. Not one thing. It is always completely on the nose. For example, when we were shown the note-sharing of Caitlin and KF, I knew KF would be gone by the end of the episode. It’s NEVER subtle.

Now, the SB people swear that Barry and Caitlin were set to be a couple. But, at the same time, they claim they can’t buy that Barry/Iris are in love ?. 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

If Barry/Caitlin ever happened, it would be endgame.

Nope. It's fine if that's the pairing you want to see; but I don't see evidence of that.
 

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

 S/B should never have been teased if the showrunners were 100% invested in WA.

Again, I don't think there was any serious ship teasing with Barry/Caitlin (a few minor incidents at most), but even if there was, I don't think that negates WestAllen as endgame. Multiple love interests for a lead before he settles down with his True Love is pretty standard.

---

Besides using her as a plot device, the writers seem more interested in pairing her up with everyone BUT Barry, IMO. (Ronnie, Jay, Julian, Cisco, Harry, Killer Frost, Amunet, maybe even Heatwave)

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Yes, especially on this show. Nothing is subtle.

Which is why their putting in SB moments was unnecessary if they never intended / or contemplated going there. 

 

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Nope. It's fine if that's the pairing you want to see; but I don't see evidence of that.

SB is not the pairing I want to see? Like I'm not sure which part of this

On 27/05/2018 at 7:54 PM, Katsullivan said:

Caitlin Snow is Peak White Feminiity, in every ugly definition of the concept. She can literally conspire to murder (HR) but she will be regarded as blameless. The laws of the universe (Flashpoint causing her to be born with powers before Flashpoint happened) will be bent and distorted to vindicate her. People - specifically black women - will be sacrificed to lift her up. From Iris's life being classed as "equally" important as Caitlin's super-speshul-meta-powers-made-her-evil-until-they-didn't, to Caitlin's repeated efforts to sabotage Iris's rescue out of her own selfishness, and finally her decision to help Iris's murderer, being ignored by everyone on the show.

Wally West was practically cursed out because he was having nightmares. Barry jilted Iris because she didn't appreciate his misguided rescue efforts. But not one bad word was uttered to Caitlin except by the white man who was in love with her. 

or this

On 24/06/2018 at 2:13 AM, Katsullivan said:

Very good summary of the shit-show that is SB, and the actress and showrunners's complicity in planting, and nurturing that seed. 

on this page alone gives anyone that impression.

But wanting to see something or not doesn't change its existence. 

 

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Again, I don't think there was any serious ship teasing with Barry/Caitlin (a few minor incidents at most), but even if there was, I don't think that negates WestAllen as endgame. Multiple love interests for a lead before he settles down with his True Love is pretty standard.

We'll know if WestAllen or any ship is endgame when the Flash ends - and maybe even not then.

Spoiler

In Boy Meets World, Sean and Angela were endgame until the revival series when their entire relationship was essentially retconned. 

 

 

TL DR --- it's up to individual fans how much faith they want to put on the Flash creators. I've seen enough to both make me skeptical (their decision to cast Caitlin Snow as Barry's contemporary, not Eobard's and keep her on the show long past her expiration date, and their suspicious way of writing her character) and optimistic (AJK's departure heralding an entirely new prominence towards Iris and Westallen).