Caitlin Snow

[adora721]

38 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So WHY have KF making all of these snide comments about Iris that  have their basis rooted in Iris' relationship with Barry?  Why have KF team up with Savitar if KF is a separate entity?  What reason would KF have for that?  She's just evil?  No.  That's not it.

 

KF teaming up with Savitar never made any sense. Killer Frost should be grateful Barry brought her into existence; so, why team up with Savitar who was trying to harm Barry? Shouldn't KF's loyalty be to her "creator" Barry Allen?

Cait was angry at Barry for making her Killer Frost. Why team up with Barry's clone, Savitar? Just to punish Barry?

Nope; it was about Iris or rather that Barry chose Iris instead of Caitlin. KF was enacting revenge on Barry for spurning Caitlin's attentions. That's how it looks, especially because KF was trying to flirt with Savitar. Savitar was a version of Barry who KF/Cait thought she could have because Savitar didn't want Iris. 

Consider that even DP stated in a S1 interview that Caitlin was jealous of the attention Iris got from men. That's how DP interpreted Caitlin's POV on Iris West.

Edited November 9, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

KF teaming up with Savitar never made any sense. Killer Frost should be grateful Barry brought her into existence; so, why team up with Savitar who was trying to harm Barry? Shouldn't KF's loyalty be to her "creator" Barry Allen?

Cait was angry at Barry for making her Killer Frost. Why team up with Barry's clone, Savitar? Just to punish Barry?

Nope; it was about Iris or rather that Barry chose Iris instead of Caitlin. KF was enacting revenge on Barry for spurning Caitlin's attentions. That's how it looks, especially because KF was trying to flirt with Savitar. Savitar was a version of Barry who KF/Cait thought she could have because Savitar didn't want Iris. 

Consider that even DP stated in a S1 interview that Caitlin was jealous of the attention Iris got from men. That's how DP interpreted Caitlin's POV on Iris West.

I agree - this is kinda my point.  The writers don't want to "dirty" Caitlin by making her do all of these evil things directly to Iris - born out of her anger/envy/jealousy that Iris is with Barry or Barry is with Iris.  So instead, they use the KF persona to do that dirty work, so Caitlin can remain "clean", but they're basically using KF as a mask for Caitlin in a nonsensical way that doesn't make sense - ALL to absolve Caitlin of any wrongdoing.

Like I said, playing both ends against the middle.  They get to attack/shade/hurt Iris via KF, which appeases the IrisHaters, while keeping Caitlin "pure" and blame free, even if it doesn't make any sense and they constantly contradict themselves.

[adora721]

Another way the writers could have accounted for the KF/Caitlitn personality split is by using a real, but rare syndrome called the "Vanishing Twin". Basically, a miscarriage occurs in a pregnancy in which there is more than one fetus in the womb. The surviving fetus absorbs the tissue of the dead fetus while in the womb. I first learned about this from a former manager, who told me this happened to his wife when pregnant with their son. The first ultrasound found two fetuses, but the next ultrasound showed only one. 

The Sci-fi twist on this would be that KF was a real, separate fetus in the womb with Caitlin. However, the KF fetus had the meta gene, but Caitlin didn't until the KF fetus seemed to "die" and the Caitlin fetus absorbed the KF fetus with the meta gene. Her parents realized what happened (per the childhood flashback) and found a way to suppress the gene, which would explain why Harry Wells' meta watch didn't go off in S2 when pointed at Caitlin. However, after suffering the loss of Ronnie for a second time and the trauma of Hunter Zolomon (Zoom), the stress activated the meta gene.  

Additionally, the Sci-fi aspect could justify KF's evil behavior as a result of having actually lived inside Caitlin as a real personality trapped inside Caitlin's body for decades. Perhaps that would explain her insane and murderous behavior and tendencies. KF was essentially conscious, but trapped inside Caitlin for decades. That might drive a person crazy.

[phoenics]

That's an interesting story idea - it really is - but it still wouldn't explain the ire towards Iris and Barry.  In fact, you'd think KF would hate Caitlin after being trapped inside of her and after Cait's many attempts to keep her hidden.  And her murderous rage wouldn't be personal at Iris and Barry for being together - Instead it would just be random rage.  Her rage at Cisco and others was just her being mean - but her rage at Iris and Barry was specific to experiences only Caitlin had.

I get what you're trying to do - it just doesn't erase the major issues with the storyline - KF being used as "angry Cait" who says/does all the things the SB shippers/Iris haters want Cait to do.  All without making Cait responsible and all without Cait ever even admitting WHY.  

The show will never go there - first it would come out of left field and second it would make Cait look HORRIBLE - as in absolutely irredeemably horrible.  The character would officially be the character who aided and abetted in the attempted murder of Iris with Savitar (and actual murder of HR) because she was jealous of Iris/Barry? And to top it off, she's back into the fold without ever apologizing to Iris for any of it.

Part of me wonders if DP campaigned for some of this to be added in so that she could try to backdoor her way into SB?  She's still baiting her fans on twitter.

[adora721]

On 11/9/2018 at 5:20 PM, phoenics said:

That's an interesting story idea - it really is - but it still wouldn't explain the ire towards Iris and Barry.  In fact, you'd think KF would hate Caitlin after being trapped inside of her and after Cait's many attempts to keep her hidden.

I understand there are problems with this scenario. However, KF as Cait's twin could be used to justify taking revenge for her twin, Caitlin, being rejected by Barry for Iris' sake.  Recall that E2 KF asked E1 Cait why she dressed so demurely;  then KF said, "Have you seen our body?" E2 KF was very proud of showing her "goods" (ahem). KF's desire to avenge her twin would take precedence since Barry rejected KF (at least in KF's mind) when he rejected Caitlin (at least her body) and chose Iris instead.

Plus DP has stated the following in a S3 interview:

"Panabaker also offered an explanation about Caitlin and Killer Frost’s relationship during her recent chat with TVLine. “I had a lot of conversations with the writers, particularly around episode 7 [‘Killer Frost’], which was Kevin Smith’s episode,” the actress shared, “and the way that this has been explained to me is that it’s almost like there’s this dark person inside of her who’s itching to get let out.” So, they could have expanded on the "dark person" idea using the vanishing twin scenario.

This twin scenario could also be used to justify why Cait wants KF back. Cait could have survivor's guilt as the surviving fetus or she could irrationally feel responsible for the KF fetus not surviving and being robbed of a life while trapped and suppressed inside her all these years.  Getting KF back would allow KF to finally have a life through Cait's body.

All I'm saying is that the twin scenario would have given the writers something better to work with than the multiple retcons and the convoluted story lines we have now. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

No I get what you mean - but if this dark twin is going to be used to be the dark side of Cait that gets to do what Cait wants without Cait having to pay any repercussions, no thanks (but Barry never rejected Cait - where did you get that?  That never happened on the show. There has NEVER been anything for Barry to reject.  Caitlin has NEVER shown feelings for Barry on the show.  Barry has never shown feelings for Cait on the show.  That is only in the minds of SB fans who want SB and see Cait/Barry standing next to one another as chemistry, lol)...

Point is - if this is just going to be another way to have Cait act out some shadow-hate campaign against Iris/Barry, so Cait's hands can stay clean, it's STILL a horrible storyline angle.  I'm sure DP would love it - because she likes having the chance to act out as though Cait is some spurned lover that KF is taking revenge for - only none of that is canon on the show (it's only canon in the minds of SB fans and Iris haters).  So it's literally just DP service and fan-service.  It's more hate bait.  Because KF wanting to take revenge on either Iris or Barry for their relationship makes NO sense given what has actually aired on the show.

Unless your goal is to make SBfans/IrisHaters happy at the expense of good storytelling.

So thanks but no thanks.

The only way out for Cait/KF is for the writers to hold KF or Cait (don't care which) responsible for the death and destruction she's caused and for the show to stop letting Cait do anything and never pay for it.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Caitlin has NEVER shown feelings for Barry on the show. 

Caitlin did show romantic interest in Barry on the show:

1. She told Barry in "Blackout" that, "I've already lost someone I care about in this building; I don't want to lose another." Cait was referencing her loss of fiance Ronnie and equating that to potentially losing Barry. This was after knowing Barry for only 1.2 months after he woke from his coma! That's a strong statement about a man she barely knew at this point. 
2. She allowed Everyman to kiss her when he was disguised as Barry after being initially shocked/surprised with the first kiss.
3. She invited herself to the bar for Barry's stakeout dressed to the nines. I suspect to get Barry to see her in a different way. She also drank to excess; possibly trying to use liquid courage to make a move on Barry. 
4. She told Barry, while she was drunk, he had a right to take a peek at her goods because of all the heroic things he does. As the saying goes, "In vino veritas."
5. Cait asked Felicity point blank if she returned to Central City for Barry, as in to date Barry. Why ask that question if she's not romantically interested? What business of Cait's was it if Barry and Felicity dated?
6. In a scene in which Cait lashed out at Barry, Cisco stated that the last person that got Cait so upset was Ronnie. Hinting that Cait's feelings for Barry were similar to her feelings for Ronnie.

I agree that Barry did not in any way return these attempts at flirtation nor did Barry say or do anything to show romantic interest in Cait. And DP did her best to twist certain scenes to make them seem romantic. There are probably other canon attempts that show Cait had some romantic interest in Barry, but those are the ones I could recall right now. So, from Cait's or more precisely, Killer Frost's POV, Barry not choosing Cait is de facto rejection of KF, too. Remember KF is insane in this scenario.

The current story line and the previous one are absolving Cait of wrongdoing; I don't like it either. My scenario just makes some sense. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin did show romantic interest in Barry on the show:

1. She told Barry in "Blackout" that, "I've already lost someone I care about in this building; I don't want to lose another." Cait was referencing her loss of fiance Ronnie and equating that to potentially losing Barry. This was after knowing Barry for only 1.2 months after he woke from his coma! That's a strong statement about a man she barely knew at this point. 
2. She allowed Everyman to kiss her when he was disguised as Barry after being initially shocked/surprised with the first kiss.
3. She invited herself to the bar for Barry's stakeout dressed to the nines. I suspect to get Barry to see her in a different way. She also drank to excess; possibly trying to use liquid courage to make a move on Barry. 
4. She told Barry, while she was drunk, he had a right to take a peek at her goods because of all the heroic things he does. As the saying goes, "In vino veritas."
5. Cait asked Felicity point blank if she returned to Central City for Barry, as in to date Barry. Why ask that question if she's not romantically interested? What business of Cait's was it if Barry and Felicity dated?
6. In a scene in which Cait lashed out at Barry, Cisco stated that the last person that got Cait so upset was Ronnie. Hinting that Cait's feelings for Barry were similar to her feelings for Ronnie.

I agree that Barry did not in any way return these attempts at flirtation nor did Barry say or do anything to show romantic interest in Cait. And DP did her best to twist certain scenes to make them seem romantic. There are probably other canon attempts that show Cait had some romantic interest in Barry, but those are the ones I could recall right now. So, from Cait's or more precisely, Killer Frost's POV, Barry not choosing Cait is de facto rejection of KF, too. Remember KF is insane in this scenario.

The current story line and the previous one are absolving Cait of wrongdoing; I don't like it either. My scenario just makes some sense. 

If that's Cait showing feelings for Barry, then that means she's shown the same feelings for Cisco.  In fact, she's shown more for him than Barry.  And the show has never ever acknowledged that she has feelings for either - though I think the show might have considered pairing her with Cisco - but DP of course pushed back.

Again - Cait never presented herself to Barry for "choice" so she wasn't rejected by him.

But thanks for illustrating the mindset that the writing is catering to - giving Cait an out by having KF act out in revenge against Iris/Barry for things that Cait herself has never acknowledged or done on the show - but just for things her fans think she's done.  That's why your scenario doesn't make sense to me - it's just more of the same.  But go off I guess.

ETA:  I will say that Cait responding to EveryBarry's kiss was indicative that she did feel something for him - but her relief that it wasn't Barry shows she didn't want anything from him.  And that happened AFTER all fo the scenes you mention, so that means that Cait didn't have feelings for Barry at that time.

I could maybe accept that while Cait doesn't have those feelings, KF DOES and that's why she's like that to Barry/Iris - but I'm going to need the show to be explicit and say that so she can be pilloried and vilified for trying to kill Iris and others.  

The point is - the show cannot have it both ways.  It can't let Cait/KF behave toward B/I as though Cait is a spurned lover but never let her ADMIT that's the reason so she can be SHAMED, kicked out of the group, cast out and castigated.  If the show wants Cait/KF act a fool to B/I, then they have to NAME it. Otherwise it's just storyline bait - it's literally a dog whistle and it's unbalanced and trash storytelling - relying upon a portion of the fandom's hatred for a character that was cast with a black actress to drive interest in Cait/KF's murderous actions toward B/I, without ever having to be held accountable for said actions.

Your idea doesn't make this any better - until and unless the show acknowledges it, it's still just hate bait.

So - sure - we can go your way - but it can't just be speculation - the show has to call it out and the characters have to respond to that with swift, harsh and unerring damnation of KF/Caitlin.  Period.

[phoenics]

To add to this idea - think about the tv show Merlin and how it handled Morgana and her eventual hatred of Gwen (Guinevere).  It wasn't about a man - though I think the writers did toy with the idea at first, but the abandoned it.  But they gave Morgana a reason to hate Gwen - Morgana being jealous that Gwen would one day become Queen of Camelot - which is what Morgana wanted for herself (though not at Arthur's side).  But the show didn't have Morgana just randomly with no real reason lash out at Gwen.  They showed a clear reasoning - which, when she was found out, was roundly denigrated by everyone.  Once Morgana's murderous actions were revealed, no one tried to justify her treatment of Gwen and Arthur.  No one.

On a show with a showrunner (AJK) who wasn't bound and determined to eventually replace the black woman with his hire (the woman who didn't even have to audition for her role like CP and everyone else did), we'd get a story more like Morgana and Gwen.  Instead, we get a story that gives Cait an "out" to lash out at Iris (inexplicably), with no reasoning that makes sense (or that is expressed in canon), and then absolves her of any guilt or wrongdoing in the end to the point that Iris never even demands an apology from her for it.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

The point is - the show cannot have it both ways. 

The show is trying to have it both ways, hence the madness of the story line and multiple retcons. In an effort to try to create SB, they put SB teases and some evidence (even DP admitted in an interview that Caitlin flirted with Barry , but we can agree to disagree) that Cait had romantic feelings for Barry. It was said much better in another thread (I'm paraphrasing) that the SB teasing was just subtle enough to allow for plausible deniability if SB never happened and to justify a SB romance if SB had actually happened. 

Quote

I will say that Cait responding to EveryBarry's kiss was indicative that she did feel something for him - but her relief that it wasn't Barry shows she didn't want anything from him.  And that happened AFTER all fo the scenes you mention, so that means that Cait didn't have feelings for Barry at that time.

ETA: This scene is a perfect example of the writing trying to have it both ways and the writers "talking out of both sides of their mouths."  Why write Cait to be receptive of and kissing fake Barry back and then write Cait to be relieved later in the episode that it wasn't really Barry?  The writers are double-minded; they give a tease for SB and then later figuratively say, "Just kidding!"

The writers were attempting to avoid writing a romantic triangle, but ended up writing the behaviors of someone rejected in love (Cait/KF) without actually admitting it. This a primary reason the KF story is so convoluted.  The writers think that, as long as they don't have Cait or KF admit there's animus towards Iris (and a bit towards Barry) for romantic reasons, the audience will just accept it without question. And yet they refuse to give an actual, canon reason for KF's behavior or Cait's refusal to apologize to Iris and others. Instead, they write around it with Cait apologizing to Joe and apologizing for what "Happened to HR" instead of her apologizing to Iris, Cecile, Cisco, and Barry specifically for her attacks against them. Then they have Iris make non-nonsensical excuses for KF's behavior (she was being manipulated by Savitar) and have no one being concerned about having KF working on the team. 

Consider the loft house-warming party at which Cait was next in line for a hug from Iris. Someone has told me that they filmed a hug between the two women. However, it was cut. Why cut it? It couldn't have taken more than a few seconds to show, and they showed Iris hugging Cisco who was right behind Caitlin. That's a deliberate editing decision to avoid showing these two as being friendly. Again, why?

What was in it for them to make it seem like these two women who had been working together for two years at this point seem so standoffish with one another? To me, the answer is that the plan to make SB happen was predicated on keeping Iris and Cait distant and as acquaintances.  If they were good friends, it's makes it harder for Cait and Barry to date if WA dated first and broke up. Who wants to date the ex of a good friend? One of the reasons that SB fans hate that Iris and Cait become more than work friends in S4 is that it made it less likely that Cait would date Barry if Barry became her friend Iris' ex for whatever reason.

I highly doubt we'll get any canon admission from Cait or KF about romantic interest in Barry being the driving factor, but there is circumstantial evidence in what's been shown onscreen. I can only hope this latest retcon at least make sense.

Edited November 11, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

41 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The show is trying to have it both ways, hence the madness of the story line and multiple retcons. In an effort to try to create SB, they put SB teases and some evidence (even DP admitted in an interview that Caitlin flirted with Barry , but we can agree to disagree) that Cait had romantic feelings for Barry. It was said much better in another thread (I'm paraphrasing) that the SB teasing was just subtle enough to allow for plausible deniability if SB never happened and to justify a SB romance if SB had actually happened. 

ETA: This scene is a perfect example of the writing trying to have it both ways and the writers "talking out of both sides of their mouths."  Why write Cait to be receptive of and kissing fake Barry back and then write Cait to be relieved later in the episode that it wasn't really Barry?  The writers are double-minded; they give a tease for SB and then later figuratively say, "Just kidding!"

The writers were attempting to avoid writing a romantic triangle, but ended up writing the behaviors of someone rejected in love (Cait/KF) without actually admitting it. This a primary reason the KF story is so convoluted.  The writers think that, as long as they don't have Cait or KF admit there's animus towards Iris (and a bit towards Barry) for romantic reasons, the audience will just accept it without question. And yet they refuse to give an actual, canon reason for KF's behavior or Cait's refusal to apologize to Iris and others. Instead, they write around it with Cait apologizing to Joe and apologizing for what "Happened to HR" instead of her apologizing to Iris, Cecile, Cisco, and Barry specifically for her attacks against them. Then they have Iris make non-nonsensical excuses for KF's behavior (she was being manipulated by Savitar) and have no one being concerned about having KF working on the team. 

Consider the loft house-warming party at which Cait was next in line for a hug from Iris. Someone has told me that they filmed a hug between the two women. However, it was cut. Why cut it? It couldn't have taken more than a few seconds to show, and they showed Iris hugging Cisco who was right behind Caitlin. That's a deliberate editing decision to avoid showing these two as being friendly. Again, why?

What was in it for them to make it seem like these two women who had been working together for two years at this point seem so standoffish with one another? To me, the answer is that the plan to make SB happen was predicated on keeping Iris and Cait distant and as acquaintances.  If they were good friends, it's makes it harder for Cait and Barry to date if WA dated first and broke up. Who wants to date the ex of a good friend? One of the reasons that SB fans hate that Iris and Cait become more than work friends in S4 is that it made it less likely that Cait would date Barry if Barry became her friend Iris' ex for whatever reason.

I highly doubt we'll get any canon admission from Cait or KF about romantic interest in Barry being the driving factor, but there is circumstantial evidence in what's been shown onscreen. I can only hope this latest retcon at least make sense.

YES!  Okay - now we agree.  Maybe we agreed kinda all along - but it felt like you were continuing this pattern of double-mindedness of the writers.  But yes, I completely agree and this is what I've been trying to say.  

Thing is, I don't think we will ever get confirmation that Cait/KF wants Barry and hates Iris because she has him - this show has been averse to ever having any of the white women on the show sit in Iris' shadow in such a way.  They didn't even let Patty be jealous of Iris (a common interloper storyline beat), and she was totally thirsty for Barry.  They'll never let Cait/KF admit something like that and put her in the position of openly wanting what Iris (a black woman) has.

And honestly - unless they have her admit something and then she's roundly ejected from TF and forever shunned by them, I'm not interested in that.  I want her to pay for what she's done and I wish someone would question her chasing KF now.  It's beyond crazy to me that Barry would align himself with this goal - KF nearly caused the love of his life to DIE.  WTF is he doing trying to get her back?

That's what is so frustrating about any storyline with Cait/KF.  Even Iris acts like KF is benign, when she colluded with Savitar to kill her.  The writers actually had her brush off Cecile's concerns (WTF) to prop Cait/KF up.  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

The writers literally sh!t on the rest of the characters having them uphold Cait as some paragon of virtue after the mess she's pulled.

But I'm supposed to drag Iris to hell over what a future version of her did?  Eff that noise.

[Starry]

21 hours ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin's, "When I lost Killer Frost, I was destroyed" makes no sense. Caitlin spent 90% of S3 and six months in the interim between S4 trying to get rid of Killer Frost by any means necessary, legal and illegal. Her sudden love for her murderous, criminal personality disorder makes no sense. And like Cait reminded Cisco, he made a cold gun. He made a cold gun for Caitlin to use, too. So her murderous personality disorder isn't needed at all to have cold powers.

It doesn't make sense but that's water under the bridge. Killer Frost has been a part of Team Flash since 4x05. It's been one year. The two bonded off screen in s4. I agree with you that it's terrible writing but I'm not going to constantly overthink it. It's old news. Nothing about Caitlin post Killer Frost makes sense and at this point it is what it is.

Caitlin had wanted Killer Frost back since midway through s4. The cold gun is not going to solve anything because it's not the powers she misses, it's the split personality she bonded with last year. Killer Frost could be the most useless team member ever and she'd still want her back because she's her pen pal. From Caitlin's perspective Killer Frost is not just the powers, she's her off screen friend. That's why I didn't agree with the Cisco comparison.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Caitlin had wanted Killer Frost back since midway through s4. The cold gun is not going to solve anything because it's not the powers she misses, it's the split personality she bonded with last year. Killer Frost could be the most useless team member ever and she'd still want her back because she's her pen pal. From Caitlin's perspective Killer Frost is not just the powers, she's her off screen friend. That's why I didn't agree with the Cisco comparison.

See, this is another case of the writers talking out of both sides of their mouths: It is about the powers. Her speech to Cisco is a "lie" told using a truth.  Caitlin knew her own value to the team long before KF was a part of her, so did Cisco for that matter.  The truth is that Caitlin has nothing else going except KF.

And think about  this: Who in their right mind wants a personality disorder? Who, having been "cured" of a mental illness, wants that illness back? And who wants to contend with a murderous personality disorder that may severely limit the possibility of friends or other relationships outside of the people on Team Flash? Doesn't Cait plan to have other friends one day? How will they react to her special, killer friend? Has she fallen in love with Killer Frost and therefore, has no desire for romance with anyone in the future?

The only way, IMO, that Cait wanting KF back makes sense is if Cait admits that she is really Killer Frost, warts and all. KF is Cait's dark side and she wants to be whole again.

Edited November 16, 2018 by adora721

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

It's the wanting it both ways that frustrates me. But the thing is, I think they could have done both things (have sassy, supervillain KF, AND team member CS), just not at the same time like they've been trying for the past 2 seasons. First, they'd have to commit to Caitlin giving in to the 'dark side' for a while* and go full villain; then start her redemption arc and work her way back to being a part of the team. Or they could have done more with Caitlin struggling with this dark side of herself, instead of the switch to her being friendly, and missing this (now) other person that has assaulted the team and been the enforcer for a couple of supervillains.

But I've said all this before; I'm over it all now. TPTB are determined to keep Panabaker/Caitlin/Killer Frost around, just keep them away from the main storylines that matter.

*(which, again, they started that at the end of Season 3, then chickened out)

You know what might have been interesting and allowed them to keep both Cailtin and KF?  Make them really a split personality.  Physically.  I mean this is a comic book super hero show that plays fast and loose with physics, and is chock full of mumbo-jumbo science.  The show could have come up with something that literally split CS and KF into two separate people.  This would have allowed them to keep 'good' Caitlin and embrace evil KF.   KF could come and go as a nemesis.  It would allow Cait some angst about this other self of hers roaming around and killing people.  It would remove the ambiguity of the team, they could really and truly try to kill KF without worrying about saving Caitlin.  And when DP got tired of playing both roles or when the show found it convenient they could finally kill off KF. 

[Trini]

And what is even the point of having this split personality if they're putting the 'bad' side on the hero team anyway? Just merge them!

Gah! Gotta stop wasting energy on this.

BTW, there was a similar story in the series Heroes.  Niki had an alternate personality named Jessica who had super strength. Most of the time Niki was unaware of Jessica's actions when Jessica took over; but sometimes they were able to actually talk to each other (they mainly showed this through mirrors on the show). Eventually Niki was able to access the super strength powers, and Jessica became less prominent.

Then there was another show My Own Worst Enemy, where the entire concept of the show was built around two personalities sharing one body. I don't remember how successful they were (it's been a while), but they definitely explored issues of a good/bad split; sharing a body; both personalities having different and separate lives; both personalities having conflicting goals; both personalities having to work together; each dealing with the consequences of the other's actions; finding creative ways to communicate; each personality fighting to exist; and exploring the question of which personality was the 'real' one.

I don't expect this show to get into anything that deep with Caitlin/KF, but if they could just pick one thing and do it well....

[adora721]

I don't think TPTB find Caitlin Snow interesting on her own. That's got to be the reason for this piece of garbage story. 

• DP refuses a new love interest, so the writing won't go there.
•  Cait's medical skills are not always needed or helpful since metas can heal themselves (mostly).
• She's not quirky interesting like Felicity.
• She's not funny and likable like Cisco, who also makes the tech.
• She's not selfless and brave like Iris nor is Cait vital for Barry's story.
• She's not charming and lovable like Nora.
• She's not a fount of wisdom and experience and warmth like papa Joe.
• She's not reinventing her character in intriguing ways like each version of  Wells.
• Not even her family dynamic is terribly interesting.
• TPTB are aware that DP does her best (I use that term very loosely) acting when she's Killer Frost. 
• It doesn't help that the actress doesn't exude any onscreen charisma either, so it's hard to root for her.
• Even if you hated Ralph in S4, he's gotten more fans now in S5, which is an improvement. I know my opinion of Cait grows worse with each season.

In other words, Caitlin Snow is bland in every way possible, except with Killer Frost. It's no wonder the writers had to literally make other characters remind Cait how important she was in 4x9.  I'm unsure if the writing alone is to blame because I don't know how interesting she is in the comics. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by adora721

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I don't think TPTB find Caitlin Snow interesting on her own. That's got to be the reason for this piece of garbage story. 

• DP refuses a new love interest, so the writing won't go there.
•  Cait's medical skills are not always needed or helpful since metas can heal themselves (mostly).
• She's not quirky interesting like Felicity.
• She's not funny and likable like Cisco, who also makes the tech.
• She's not selfless and brave like Iris nor is Cait vital for Barry's story.
• She's not charming and lovable like Nora.
• She's not a fount of wisdom and experience and warmth like papa Joe.
• She's not reinventing her character in intriguing ways like each version of  Wells.
• Not even her family dynamic is terribly interesting.
• TPTB are aware that DP does her best (I use that term very loosely) acting when she's Killer Frost. 
• It doesn't help that the actress doesn't exude any onscreen charisma either, so it's hard to root for her.
• Even if you hated Ralph in S4, he's gotten more fans now in S5, which is an improvement. I know my opinion of Cait grows worse with each season.

In other words, Caitlin Snow is bland in every way possible, except with Killer Frost. It's no wonder the writers had to literally make other characters remind Cait how important she was in 4x9.  I'm unsure if the writing alone is to blame because I don't know how interesting she is in the comics. 

I agree. The writers don't find Caitlin interesting, which is why they feel like they need to force KF into being part of Caitlin, in order for her to be interesting. 

With that said, the Flash writers being weak ass writers is one of the main problem with Caitlin. I think DP is a weak actress but I think if there was strong writing for Caitlin, Caitlin wouldn't be as bland a character as she is and DP might be inspire to up her game. 

[ursula]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

You know what might have been interesting and allowed them to keep both Cailtin and KF?  Make them really a split personality.  Physically. 

This would have worked. Nina Dobrev basically did the same thing in Vampire Diaries, with Katherine coming and going and basically being a 'guest character'.

[blugirlami21]

Hmmm I liked Caitlin just fine as she was pre KF tbh.  I mean she didn't blow my hair back character wise but she's nice, she's a great bff for Cisco and I thought her relationship with Julian last season was very well done.  I thought that Caitlin with the ice powers and her learning and struggling to use them was the right choice for her character.  The Killer Frost storyline is a misstep that the show refuses to correct.  I feel like the more they dig their heels in with the split personality and the more they try to make KF seem like a misguided but really nice deep down villain the worse it is.  Killer Frost hasn't been written in a redeemable way. 

I thought the comparison someone made earlier to Leonard to be spot on.  The writers obviously know how to write a lovable villain who can be redeemed and I don't know if it was Wentworth elevating the material compared to DP or what but they pulled that off.  I genuinely loved Leonard by the time he was written out of the show.  I can't say the same for Killer Frost.  I thought she was quite interesting as an anti-hero on earth 2, as that Caitlin Snow but trying to turn our Caitlin into Killer Frost doesn't work and it won't ever work because they are two totally different characters.  

I didn't understand her attachment to the KF side of herself the way it was written.  If they had written KF as a darker side of Caitlin that she would eventually come to accept and temper I think that would have worked a lot better.  They had the KF perona go too far when she was bad for it to make sense for Caitlin to want her back so badly or for everyone to just be ok with it.  And she hasn't apologized for anything that KF did nor has Killer Frost. 

Why didn't they just have earth 2 KF join the flash team?  Or not to be morbid but she could have killed Caitlin and took her place and in trying to impersonate her she became a better person, that would have been better than this mess of a storyline.  Like how does it even work?  Is Killer Frost just going to live in Caitlin's brain forever?  Do they alternate on what days she's KF?  Like how it is going to resolve itself for Caitlin's character?  Why can't she just be ice powers Caitlin?  Why does Cisco have to be nerfed and be reassured by Caitlin of all people that he's still Cisco powers or not but Caitlin has to both have powers and have an evil split personality?  It makes no sense.

Edited November 27, 2018 by blugirlami21

[CTrent29]

Quote

She's not quirky interesting like Felicity.

 

Aside from comic relief, I don't find Felicity all that interesting.  In fact, I find Caitlin more interesting.

 

Quote

You know what might have been interesting and allowed them to keep both Cailtin and KF?  Make them really a split personality.  Physically. 

Why does Caitlin have to continue manifesting this split personality in order to use her powers?  I find that rather redundant by now.

Edited November 28, 2018 by CTrent29

[adora721]

22 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

Why does Caitlin have to continue manifesting this split personality in order to use her powers?  I find that rather redundant by now.

I think your question just proves my point. As some have suggested, TPTB could have used one of the following options:

• Caitlin and KF be two separate bodies; which sounds really interesting to me and has potential.
• Caitlin use the cold gun Cisco made for her in 4x22 out in the field.
• Caitlin have cold powers without having an evil second personality.

The fact that they don't do any of these options is proof, IMO, that TPTB don't think Caitlin is interesting without being Killer Frost. Ms. Snow isn't enough, no matter how many times they had characters say that Caitlin is "remarkable" in 4x9.

Edited November 29, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:36 PM, CTrent29 said:

 

Aside from comic relief, I don't find Felicity all that interesting.  In fact, I find Caitlin more interesting.

 

Why does Caitlin have to continue manifesting this split personality in order to use her powers?  I find that rather redundant by now.

Because the writers need a way to absolve Caitlin of all sin - that's really the reason behind her hacked up origin KF story - they wanted KF, and they want the snide inside potshots for Caitlin and KF to make against Iris, and they want KF to do evil things, but they don't want Caitlin to pay for them.  Apparently they also don't want KF to pay for them either and they want us to just forget all of the awful stuff she did and never apologized for - they just want us to accept KF as "part of the team" even though there is no real reason why Cecile, Iris, Barry or Cisco should ever trust KF after what she did (and never ever apologized for, took accountability for, or even had a redemption arc for).

[adora721]

Someone on Tumblr suggested that DP must have it in her contract to appear in the all the crossover episodes. That would explain why CS is always there even when she doesn't contribute much or is knocked out easily by a non-meta.

[BeautifulFlower]

LMAO. someone made this video of all the time Caitlin has been knocked out. Even with powers, she's a damsel

[Katsullivan]

Don't forget the next tweet that says that Caitlin has been kidnapped the most than any other character and Iris has been kidnapped the least.

Think about this for a bit: Caitlin gets more promos and is in more crossovers because she's in Star Labs (OTF!), and has super-powers. The implication is that between her dozen PhDs in whatever-fits-the-plot disciplines, and her super-speshul-one-of-a-kind powers, she's more useful to the team and more integral to the Flash (Barry) than Iris. Meanwhile Iris who has a pithy single PhD, and no special powers ("We are the Flash", not counting), is useless.

But in reality, Caitlin is the biggest Load in the story, and Iris is the most capable and self-sufficient person. 

If that doesn't summarise White Feminism in a nutshell, then I don't know what will. 

[SimoneS]

I don't think the show ever gave Iris her Ph.D. It just dropped it. Overall, I don't mind Caitlin. To me she is just there. This season I think that the writers have lost their way trying to give DP a story when she can barely act her way out of a paper bag. The new Killer Frost origin story and her father/not-father is just convoluted and idiotic.  When it comes to Killer Frost, the show just needs to pick a lane and stick with it.

[Katsullivan]

17 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I don't think the show ever gave Iris her Ph.D. It just dropped it.

She had a dissertation the night that Barry went into the coma, so I'm going to go with yes, she got it off-screen unless the show retcons that it never happened. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I was bored and started reading Fangirlish reviews of episodes from this season. 

Quote

Last week, I wrote about how this subplot of Caitlin/Killer Frost not wanting to pursue Cisco’s cure doesn’t really make a lot of sense. They’ve just spent the last 8+ episodes (since there is spillover to last season) establishing that Caitlin is not a regular metahuman. She was not created via dark matter. She is not at all affected by Cicada’s dagger, which something something dark matter something TV science something. The fact of the matter is, they’ve bent over backwards to explain that she is their not-so-secret weapon against him because she’s not affected by him or his dagger. She laughs in the face of dark matter! Ha ha ha!

So why…the hell…is the show trying to sell this notion that Caitlin and/or Killer Frost is anxious about this cure? This cure that utilizes pieces of Cicada’s dagger (which doesn’t affect Caitlin/Killer Frost) to remove dark matter (which Caitlin/Killer Frost doesn’t have)?

Make. It. Make. Sense.

Please.

It is particularly maddening since the “Previously on” this week first established that Caitlin isn’t a regular meta and isn’t affected by Cicada’s dagger. And then immediately after established that the cure is based on the thing that affects her in absolutely no way. So even the “Previously on” segment recognized that this entire subplot is a ridiculously dumb waste of time.

It’s like if there was a disease that affected only sea turtles and zoologists were working on a cure for said disease. But the cure was liable to have some side effects for the poor turtles. And someone protested the cure because they were afraid the side effects would impact them if they accidentally took the cure.

Are you a sea turtle, Frost? Because we just established you are, in fact, not a sea turtle. So why do we have to spend twenty minutes of this episode emotionally coddling Killer Frost like she’s a sea turtle?

Why are we wasting all this time on getting her to accept that Caitlin will never get rid of her when 1) we just spent forty-seven freaking years with Caitlin trying to get her back (after spending a year trying to get rid of her and being willing to risk everyone else’s lives to do so, but I digress). And 2) CAITLIN COULDN’T USE THIS CURE TO GET RID OF YOU, EVEN IF SHE WANTED TO, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW SHE DOESN’T WANT TO BECAUSE YOU ARE AWARE THAT SHE JUST FOUGHT TO GET YOU BACK OH MY GOD WHY DID WE HAVE THIS NONSENSICAL, NARRATIVE-CONFLICTING PLOT FOR ONE EPISODE, LET ALONE TWO?????

Reading this reminded of how much I hated Caitlin's subplot in 5x11. It made no sense and was a waste of time. The cure would not work on her. They said the ep before and plenty of episodes afterwards that the cure is designed for the dark matter metas.

[Trini]

On 7/12/2019 at 9:36 PM, SevenStars said:

To me, if they really didn't want to write for her, she would get the Cisco or Iris treatment, especially in s2. Where she is only part of the story to support Barry or another character.

Instead, they create characters seasons after seasons, in order to support Caitline/KF story line, even when it means changing her past every season or it doesn't make sense.

Just because they are really bad at writing for her doesn't mean they don't want to write for her or protecting her from criticism. It just means they need to be better at writing for her, since they keep creating ways to give her screen-time, even when it means side-lining more interesting characters or having those characters play supporting roles in her story.

This tells me this is a character they want to write for but are bad at it. 

Outside of using her for exposition and general support, I think the writers are more interested in Killer Frost than Caitlin. Even though KF's only useful 10% of the time - and that's me being generous.

[Starry]

To me it looks like Caitlin is being handled by two different sets of people. One group pushes for Caitlin to be portrayed as this sacred character who is often coddled, never held accountable and always gets plots and supporting characters at the expense of other regulars. The other group, the ones who have to actually write for her, they are indifferent and write things for her just because they feel like they have to. The fact that Caitlin is one of the people who are the least relevant to Barry and his character development is to me evidence that they don't care that much about her. I have been feeling this way about Barry's relationship with Caitlin for many seasons now.

I don't know. It's like this character and her story is a walking, talking contradiction. I agree with both those who think Caitlin is written this way because she's special/sacred and with those who believe she's written this way because they don't care. Everyone has made good points.

[SevenStars]

11 hours ago, Starry said:

To me it looks like Caitlin is being handled by two different sets of people. One group pushes for Caitlin to be portrayed as this sacred character who is often coddled, never held accountable and always gets plots and supporting characters at the expense of other regulars. The other group, the ones who have to actually write for her, they are indifferent and write things for her just because they feel like they have to. The fact that Caitlin is one of the people who are the least relevant to Barry and his character development is to me evidence that they don't care that much about her. I have been feeling this way about Barry's relationship with Caitlin for many seasons now.

I don't know. It's like this character and her story is a walking, talking contradiction. I agree with both those who think Caitlin is written this way because she's special/sacred and with those who believe she's written this way because they don't care. Everyone has made good points.

I see what you are saying.  It's like someone in charge is telling the writing room " you have to do this and that for Caitlin/KF" but the scripts writers don't really want to write for her, so they do enough that their boss won't complain that they are not doing what they are told in regard to Caitlin. I think the cross-over is really example of this theory/opinion.

Actually, I think last season is a perfect example of that,  not only for Caitlin, but for the whole show. It felt like the writers were just writing to get their pay checks and didn't gaf about the show/characters. 

[SevenStars]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

Outside of using her for exposition and general support, I think the writers are more interested in Killer Frost than Caitlin. Even though KF's only useful 10% of the time - and that's me being generous.

The way they keep having KF fall flat on her face every time she enter a fight makes me question that, lol. With that said, I do agree, it seems like they have more interest in KF than Caitlin. 

[BeautifulFlower]

6 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I see what you are saying.  It's like someone in charge is telling the writing room " you have to do this and that for Caitlin/KF" but the scripts writers don't really want to write for her, so they do enough that their boss won't complain that they are not doing what they are told in regard to Caitlin. I think the cross-over is really example of this theory/opinion.

Actually, I think last season is a perfect example of that,  not only for Caitlin, but for the whole show. It felt like the writers were just writing to get their pay checks and didn't gaf about the show/characters. 

I don't understand why she always crosses over to the other shows. What has she done that serves the plot? Nothing. Especially in this last crossover. Caitlin nor Killer Frost were not needed.

They didn't need Caitlin to help with the thing outside with the red skies. I'm sure Felicity and Curtis could've handled it themselves. They're smart.

Her whole scene with Felicity made no sense. First, she should've been the last person to give Felicity advice for her marriage. Caitlin really gave her terrible advice. Two, the Flash portion told us that Felicity called Iris about what happened with Oliver last season. If Iris couldn't be the one, then I feel like Diggle should've gave advice. They're closer than Caitlin and Felicity.

Caitlin wasn't needed to get into Arkham.

I mentioned part 3 a while ago. They literally did nothing.

[Featherhat]

I liked Catlin/FKs plot with Mick in COE-X, hot and cold, that actually had a little depth to it, especially for a crossover and her mini team up with Amaya and Zari at the end. I don't think she was particularly needed in Elseworlds.

I think her talk with Felicity would have been better coming from Iris if it wasn't Dig, especially after the double wedding controversy. But they were too busy having Iris worried that Oliver was going to infect Barry. 

19 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't know. It's like this character and her story is a walking, talking contradiction. I agree with both those who think Caitlin is written this way because she's special/sacred and with those who believe she's written this way because they don't care. Everyone has made good points.

Interesting. I guess there's no reason it can't be a bit of both.

[adora721]

On 7/14/2019 at 4:09 AM, Starry said:

I don't know. It's like this character and her story is a walking, talking contradiction. I agree with both those who think Caitlin is written this way because she's special/sacred and with those who believe she's written this way because they don't care. Everyone has made good points.

I know this is because of comic accuracy, but I find it absolutely perfect that KF's new costume literally has a giant

Spoiler

snowflake emblazoned on the front. It's a perfect symbol of the whitewashed, special snowflake the narrative says she is.

🤣

Edited July 18, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

A  "Crime scene investigators are required to carry guns which they may have to use in a law enforcement situation." Barry is an officer of the law even when he's the Flash. Joe is an officer of the law even when working with STAR Labs.

Guns being the operative word. Are officers of the law allowed to throw lightning bolts at people? If Barry can throw lightning bolts at villains Frost can stab them with icicles. Same thing.

Also, officers of the law can use their weapons when necessary. Joe fired his gun at Harry Wells the second he saw him in STAR Labs. Harry himself murdered Turtle.

11 hours ago, adora721 said:

Are they all using their powers or weapons with malicious and unjustified intent to kill, which is murder? Answer is no. But Killer Frost has used her powers to maliciously and unjustifiably aid the murder of HR Wells and murdered Black Flash. And shows no sign of remore for committing those murders, which is a key difference in how Barry behaved when he was responsible for someone's death.

My problem with this conversation is that you are still coming up with examples from season 3. Since she's been a part of the team Frost hasn't killed anyone nor has she randomly stabbed innocent people. She only throws icicles at villains. She's using her personal weapon during fights like everyone else on Team Flash. Some of them fire guns, Barry throws lightning bolts, Ralph can turn his hands into knives which he uses to stab his opponent. They can do all this but Frost has to let the Cicadas or whatever villain she's helping fight have the upper hand because her weapon is somehow worse than a gun, a knife or a lightning bolt??

11 hours ago, adora721 said:

How many felonies does it take to m.ake someone a felon? Only one, but KF has multiple attempted murder felonies. It looks bad that someone like her is on a team of heroes and she hasn't earned redemption. This is the one thing "Arrow" did better than "The Flash": It redeemed Black Siren well.

We are arguing different things. I agree that Frost shouldn't have been accepted into team Flash without a proper redemption arc. I agree that she's committed those felonies. My problem is with the moniker. Killing one person makes you a killer. Killing one person doesn't give you the right to name yourself Killer Something because for that moniker to make sense you have to kill on a consistent basis. Jack the Ripper didn't earn that moniker because he "ripped" only one person or committed a series of crimes that didn't involve ripping people to shreds.

And if you think killing Black Flash is enough for Frost to earn the Killer Frost moniker, then why do we need a storyline about losing the "killer" part of her name? Once a killer always a killer, right? This storyline is 1) coming two seasons too late and 2) useless because she hasn't earned the Killer Frost moniker in the first place ( in my opinion ) or once a killer always a killer ( in your opinion ).

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Starry said:

And if you think killing Black Flash is enough for Frost to earn the Killer Frost moniker, then why do we need a storyline about losing the "killer" part of her name? Once a killer always a killer, right? This storyline is 1) coming two seasons too late and 2) useless because she hasn't earned the Killer Frost moniker in the first place ( in my opinion ) or once a killer always a killer ( in your opinion ).

Someone being a killer/murderer is based on motive/intent and being justified in taking a life. No one else on team Flash (except Harry and KF) has tried to murder or murdered someone - that is taking a life with malicious intent for an unjustified reason. Whenever other team members have used weapons or powers, the motive/intent was for defense or active protection of others for a justifiable reason. And yes, you are allowed to kill to defend yourself or protect others without being considered a killer/murderer. Cops and military officers go to work everyday with the intent to protect, not maliciously kill people for an unjustified reason.

Intent and justification are very both important, especially in the eyes of the law. Harry murdered Turtle with the intent to protect Jessie, but it was not justifiable no matter how many excuses Harry thought up. Turtle was already captive and no threat to anyone when Harry murdered him. Again, that's why Iris killing Savitar was not murder. That's why Barry using lightning isn't murder or Cisco using Vibe blasts, or Ralph, etc.

With regard to Harry, the writers showed us how what he did weighed on his conscience; we saw Harry deal with Jessie's anger and disappointment when she found out. We saw Harry have consequences for his choice to murder Turtle in that Jessie left him. We also saw Harry change in S2 when he admitted he'd been draining Barry's speed. He'd now learned that just because his intention to save Jessie was good, his actions were not justifiable.

HR was saving Iris and about to get away when KF took him back (thinking it was Iris), and KF knew that Savitar was going to shove a metal talon in his back to murder him. We'd already seen that her cold powers could hurt Savitar (not only Black Flash) so she wasn't afraid of what Savitar would do to her.  So, KF could have saved HR and Iris if she wanted to do so. She didn't want to save Iris, but she let faux HR go because her intent was malicious towards Iris for reasons we still don't know and wanting to be a fake 'god' wasn't a justifiable reason.

KF has shown no remorse for having committed her murders or attempted murders in S3. KF has shown zero remorse for torturing people or being a part of human trafficking in S4; she even threatened to freeze Iris' arm in S4 when Iris was trying to befriend her. Look at how KF sabotaged Cait's work when trying to make the cure in S5. KF's motive was to destroy a chemical that had no affect on her, but could have saved many lives from Cicada. Her mindset was one of selfishness and to allow many deaths just because she was afraid. However, when given the chance to fight, she was delighted to fight Cicada, even seeming to take pleasure in it. Even when Barry was wailing on Cicada, you could tell it was out of anger about Nora not delight in killing him. To be clear, if Barry had killed Cicada at that time, it would have been murder since Barry could have arrested him at that point w/o killing him.

Taking all these behaviors that span S3-S5 into consideration, it leads one to believe that KF still has a murderous mindset and malicious intent in mind when she uses her powers. Her mindset is key here as it goes to motive. Someone who shows no remorse is a potentially a psychopath or sociopath. So, yes; in a very real way, "once a killer, always a killer" when you have that mindset. The question is when that killer mindset will show itself given the right circumstances. And she didn't just kill one person; she abetted the murder of HR Wells. KF also tried to murder several others. I assure you that attempted murder is also a serious crime and indicates that person has a killer mindset.

Someone who rapes a person probably has, not always, a mindset of what is right or appropriate when it comes to controlling sexual urges and women's bodies. Someone who molests a child probably, not always, has a mindset about how his/her sexual attraction to children should be fullfilled or not resisted. Someone who murders without remorse tends to have the mindset that people are expendable and he/she is justified in killing them, especially if they get in the way of what I want.  And I'm not sure that KF named herself, but even if she did, that's totally in line with her "me, myself, and I are number 1" personality that is very dark. Think how Cait almost got Cynthia murdered by The Thinker just to get KF back. Think how Cait promised to work for Amunet again just to get KF back. KF and Cait are two peas in a bod.

This is where the writing has failed to show that KF's killer mindset or motive has changed like with Harry. The writers gave no reason why KF was evil or tried to help murder Iris. They gave no reason for attempting to murder her former friends.  They gave no reason for her suddenly working on the team either. And now, we supposed to believe KF has feelings about her dad dying when we saw Cait just kinda brush it off at the end of the episode.

ETA: Think back to when Barry wanted to kill Grodd in S3. Barry had fought Grodd before, but without intent to murder. In S3, he was actively contemplating murdering Grodd to save Iris, and Iris told him not to do that. This writing showed us that Barry's intent when fighting isn't normally to kill or murder.  Think back to Barry warning Ralph against murdering the Thinker in S4. We don't get that insight into KF.

I'm hoping that Eric does a good job of delving into KF's mindset so we can actually see that her mindset is no longer one of a killer and not just lying in wait for an opportunity to murder someone else. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

23 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Also, does anyone else feel like the writers be forgetting that these two can talk to each other and hear the other? Because some of the writing reflects this. A recent example is in 6x01. In the scene with Ralph, Killer Frost asks what is she suppose to say to Caitlin or how to tell her she wants to live a life. I thought and was expecting Caitlin to jump in the conversation. However, they wrote it as Caitlin didn't hear that convo.

18 hours ago, adora721 said:

Just like when Cait told KF to duck when a projectile was headed her way, from behind KF,  in one episode. However, in a later episode, Cait was mute when Cicada's dagger stabbed her, also from behind. Continuity sucks sometimes.

I don't get this either.

How aware is Caitlin of what's happening when Frost is behind the wheel and vice versa? Because in season 4 they made it look like they needed to exchange notes to understand what the other was up to. Frost used to show up in the middle of fights without understanding how she got there. She used to act surprised upon finding out what Caitlin was wearing after taking over, etc. Then they used that device to communicate more easily with each other.

Now the shows canon says that Frost was always aware of what was happening with Caitlin when Caitlin was the one in control. It's like Frost was a spectator in Caitlin's life. Ralph made a list of all the things that happened to Caitlin and Frost's reply was "I know, I was there".  Despite the continuity issues you mentioned, at a certain point Caitlin and Frost started to communicate during fights.

But when did this change? When did they go from "We need notes/a device to communicate and know what's happening while I am not the one in control" to "I always know what's happening, even when I am not the one behind the wheel"? Is there a scene I missed? Is this another retcon?

Frost knows everything about Caitlin's personal life because she was always there but Caitlin needs to have a private convo with Frost like she is suddenly unaware of what's happening when Frost is in control?

It's impossible for me to make sense of this character.

[adora721]

S4 was about removing guilt and culpability from Cait since it was clear in S3 that Cait was responsible for all of the violence in 3x7 and some of the violence in other episodes. Therefore, they came up with a plot where Cait doesn't know what KF is doing in S4. That way when KF was freezing off fingers and toes and being Amunet's muscle in human trafficking, Cait could claim "innocence" since she didn't know. Of course, it was Cait who gave KF's powers to Amunet to use in exchange for controlling KF, so Cait's still culpable.

Confusion is what you get when you pretezel the writing and logic in order to "purify" Cait w/o a proper redemption arc. It's like they put dirt and blood on Cait's hands, but want to clean them with a dirty rag. 

[SevenStars]

Cecile actually got more screen time than both Caitlin and Iris, but it didn't seems/feel that way while I was watching the episode. I felt like Caitlin/KF was the one among the ladies getting the most screen time when she only got 5 minutes, half of what Iris and Cecile got. 

This is what happens when your screen time seems like a huge waste because it doesn't bring anything to the table vs others who seems to be adding something. 

The writers really don't seem to know wtf to do with Caitlin/KF. I used to blame the writers lost of passion for the show for the bad writing of Caitlin/KF but now with Wallace, it seems like he has passion for writing for the show. It shows in the way he is writing most of the characters, but the same problem still exist with Caitline/KF. 

Now, I'm really starting to think that DP contracts  might have include certain perks or TPTB over at CW,  that requires writers to give her character screen times even when they don't know wtf to do with her. That might be why they refuse to make her a true villain because it would be harder to give her screen time if she isn't part of team Flash.  

I mean after all these behind the scenes changes with writers/producers, but Caitlin/KF still seems to get storylines after storylines ( almost a repeat of each other seasons after seasons) just to give her screen time while the writing stay being terrible for her. I'm starting to wonder and reconsider certain people's theory about what is going behind the scenes. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by SevenStars
A, not for

[Trini]

37 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

This is what happens when your screen time seems like a huge waste because it doesn't bring anything to the table vs others who seems to be adding something. 

The writers really don't seem to know wtf to do with Caitlin/KF. I used to blame the writers lost of passion for the show for the bad writing of Caitlin/KF but now with Wallace, it seems like he has passion for writing for the show. It shows in the way he is writing most of the characters, but the same problem still exist with Caitline/KF. 

The one comfort I have is that her subplots are mostly unconnected to the characters and plots I really care about. So pretty easy for me to ignore.

I think this storyline for KF is good one for her -- except that it's 2 seasons too late and irrelevant.

But yeah, I side-eye the continued attention, too.

[SevenStars]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

The one comfort I have is that her subplots are mostly unconnected to the characters and plots I really care about. So pretty easy for me to ignore.

I think this storyline for KF is good one for her -- except that it's 2 seasons too late and irrelevant.

But yeah, I side-eye the continued attention, too.

I feel the same way. This is why I have no problem with no Iris/Caitlin friendship. I'm not gonna complain about that, I'm just gonna be grateful for it. 

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I mean after all these behind the scenes changes with writers/producers, but Caitlin/KF still seems to get storylines after storylines ( almost a repeat of each other seasons after seasons) just to give her screen time while the writing stay being terrible for her. I'm starting to wonder and reconsider certain people's theory about what is going behind the scenes. 

I mean if they are gonna PERSIST in giving her screentime, then they should pull out all the stops and BEG Robbie Amell to come back to the show as Firestorm.  I know it's hard to do since the Professor is dead but ... that's really the only path forward for this character.  After Robbie Amell left - so did Cait/KF's purpose. A lot of the BTS foolishness with AJK/DP (minus the efforts DP made before the show even aired to pimp her crackship and undermine CP) could potentially be attributable to realizing CS had no real future on the show anymore without RA.

In fact, some stuff now makes sense.  In season 1, RA was known to be leaving the show around mid-season.  He was leaving due to the success of his new movie and wanting to try for a movie (not tv) career.  If you look at the dates of filming for the movie and The Flash's 1st season, they line up really well and you can see some shiptease attempts by the writers in S1.  This would also explain why DP kept pushing her crackship even when her ship with Robbie (Cait and Ronnie) was actually taking off on the show.  She knew he was gone and she had nothing.  It doesn't in any way excuse her earlier pushing of the crackship or even this pushing but it does explain why some mess happened in S1.  Man - now I feel like I need to send Grant Gustin some flowers for putting his foot down in S1 and saying NO to the crackship.

She was trying to secure her place on the show by pushing her crackship at the expense of CP - because she'd been kinda left hanging by RA's departure from the show.

Edited October 18, 2019 by phoenics

[adora721]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Cisco should have been angrier on Kamilla's behalf with that twat.

Cisco wasn't even angry at Cait when she almost got Cynthia murdered by the Thinker in S4. Cait is Teflon and has plot armor; there are never consequences for her or KF, at least so far.

Think back to how angry Barry got at Wally for not telling him about his Savitar nightmares or when Wally thought he could protect Iris from Yorkin's touch of death that turns people into ash. Think of how Barry didn't even raise his voice to Cait when she finally confessed to keeping a part of the stone. 

Perhaps it's just bad writing, in DP's contract,  or just White privilege. Think of the convicted, female Texas cop who was hugged by the brother of the man she murdered and by the judge, who's supposed to be impartial.

Edited October 18, 2019 by adora721

[SevenStars]

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I mean if they are gonna PERSIST in giving her screentime, then they should pull out all the stops and BEG Robbie Amell to come back to the show as Firestorm.  I know it's hard to do since the Professor is dead but ... that's really the only path forward for this character.  After Robbie Amell left - so did Cait/KF's purpose. A lot of the BTS foolishness with AJK/DP (minus the efforts DP made before the show even aired to pimp her crackship and undermine CP) could potentially be attributable to realizing CS had no real future on the show anymore without RA.

In fact, some stuff now makes sense.  In season 1, RA was known to be leaving the show around mid-season.  He was leaving due to the success of his new movie and wanting to try for a movie (not tv) career.  If you look at the dates of filming for the movie and The Flash's 1st season, they line up really well and you can see some shiptease attempts by the writers in S1.  This would also explain why DP kept pushing her crackship even when her ship with Robbie (Cait and Ronnie) was actually taking off on the show.  She knew he was gone and she had nothing.  It doesn't in any way excuse her earlier pushing of the crackship or even this pushing but it does explain why some mess happened in S1.  Man - now I feel like I need to send Grant Gustin some flowers for putting his foot down in S1 and saying NO to the crackship.

She was trying to secure her place on the show by pushing her crackship at the expense of CP - because she'd been kinda left hanging by RA's departure from the show.

If this is true, that means the writers knew almost from the start that DP/Caitlin would need a new pathway that didn't include Ronnie. So they could have easily done that, because at that point, they could have gone in any direction with Caitlin. The fact that they didn't, makes me question their talent as writers, their commitment to Caitlin/KF as a long-term character. This really makes me question wtf was going on behind the scene, because base on screen time it seems they were committed to the character/actor but base on the writing, it seems/feel like they really dgaf about the character, even now. So it might be that they like DP/ her good size fanbase/or her contract have certain requirements or they feel the need to have a white woman on the show as a counter to the black women on the show, any of those reasons could account for her screen time but they don't care about her character.

I can see it being a combination of all these things or just one of them. 

[adora721]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

I mean if they are gonna PERSIST in giving her screentime, then they should pull out all the stops and BEG Robbie Amell to come back to the show as Firestorm.  I know it's hard to do since the Professor is dead but ... that's really the only path forward for this character.  After Robbie Amell left - so did Cait/KF's purpose. A lot of the BTS foolishness with AJK/DP (minus the efforts DP made before the show even aired to pimp her crackship and undermine CP) could potentially be attributable to realizing CS had no real future on the show anymore without RA.

No offense to Robbie Amell or Victor Garber, but they are not irreplacable as Firestorm. That was proven true when they found Jax for Stein. Not to mention they have had a multiverse to utilize for another Firestorm Ronnie and Prof. Stein using new actors. Just like there are two Lois' with different actresses playing them in the coming crossover. The question isn't why not bring back RA or VG; it's why haven't they sought out new actors to play another Earth's version of Firestorm to play with Cait/KF?

ETA: Since DP is third-billed in the cast, it makes sense for her to get screen time, but that screen time has to be compelling and make sense. It's been neither for ages.

Edited October 18, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

Make of this what you will 🤣

[SevenStars]

40 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Make of this what you will 🤣

Stupidity. This is why even when I disagree with those who see her in the worst light, I find it hard to defend her. She plays into it. 

[adora721]

38 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Stupidity. This is why even when I disagree with those who see her in the worst light, I find it hard to defend her. She plays into it. 

Some of the responses were hilarious. Like a couple people said they thought Caitlin was just like a mom to Barry🤣

[SevenStars]

11 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Some of the responses were hilarious. Like a couple people said they thought Caitlin was just like a mom to Barry🤣

Yeah, I read some of the responses. DP wants Caitlin to be Joan's daughter on that earth. Desperation, lol. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she likes the actress who plays Joan and wants to work with her.