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S04.E07: The Wrong Side of Where You Are Now - Speculation and Live Chat

raven

By raven
in Fear The Walking Dead

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DixonVixen2359
DixonVixen2359

What is this obsession with Charlie? Makes me miss my queen Carol, she knew not to get attached to random kids.

Red Fields
Red Fields

I am tired of the different timelines.

raven
raven

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH JOHN DORIE

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OoohMaggie

OoohMaggie

At the beginning of this sneak peek, after Naomi says “no, we won’t” to Madison, Madison appears to focus on Naomi’s neck, gesture with her hammer and in a questioning  tone says “Mel”, Naomi then puts her hand up to her throat.

I first saw the clip on a really small screen and thought she must have been wearing a piece of jewellery with Mel written on it, she clearly isn’t, so what made Madison react the way she did? What am I not getting? 

 

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raven

raven

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Mel is the leader of the Vultures.  I think in this clip Naomi is saying "no, he won't" and she is talking about Mel.  I don't know why she touches her neck like that, maybe just a gesture that she's uncomfortable.

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OoohMaggie

OoohMaggie

Yeah, it’s the same one, I don’t know what they’re called over there but they are Range Rovers here, Land Rover, as used by Strand and Madison is the name of the manufacturer, an iconic British brand until we sold it to the Indians in 2006, also a gas guzzling V8 wouldn’t be my choice in a ZA

CR, have you any thoughts on my ‘Mel’  question above?

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Cherokee Rose

Cherokee Rose

OoohMaggie, I wasn't sure about car, as I can't tell one vehicle type from the next. Group must have been furious when went to use it and was gone.

On Mel, can't see on this screen, but Naomi definitely touches her neck, when Madison says Mel. I don't see any jewelry. On first watch, I thought she was indicating an injury to her neck caused by Mel. Could it be there's a tattoo there? I don't think it's just discomfort.

Could Naomi have known or been related to one of the Vultures (before he became one) at her old camp, thought he was dead when she returned? 

I really think Naomi has some knowledge of Vultures. She does say "we" won't be safe. Think there's a lot more she didn't say in her "confession" last episode .

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OoohMaggie

OoohMaggie

(edited)

CR,

theres definitely no jewellery, it’s just the way Madison not only looks at her, but gestures with the hammer, surely it can’t just be her intimating that Mel had got to her somehow.

Edited by OoohMaggie
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Cherokee Rose

Cherokee Rose

OoohMaggie, I re-watched the video on a larger screen. There is a small horizontal mark on Naomi's neck... maybe somehow she had a run in with Mel. You can see it just before Naomi touches her neck, and before Madison lifts the hammer.

I honestly think Madison is foolish not to listen to Naomi. Naomi obviously knows something. And, just cause Madison promised her kids to stay there... it's a ZA. You can't always keep your promises. And, telling Naomi about the backup car... don't they ever learn not to trust people they don't know well? lol.

Btw, you can see the mark on Naomi's neck also when Madison's talking about prepping the car. Then, again, maybe it's just a natural mark on the actress' neck!

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Butless

Butless

3 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Choose a side Naomie! I want to hate her but she seems to care about John Dorie, so I will wait and see. 

I cant tell. Her default look is of a disgusted complainer. So's her tone. Everything comes out like she's complaining and talking to someone she thinks is too stupid to understand her. 

I really got to believe Madison is dead. If they shot 6 episodes and no character has mentioned her or talks about finding her then she's dead. If this is a trick, Id be more p!ssed about it than the dumpster Glenn event. So great. They kill off a compelling character and leave a sh!tty one. Typical. I really dont know if Ill make it past this break. I watch enough sh!t go down at work. Dont need to witness more.

I want Cole to live. He's a decent chap. I like his Louisianne accent. He can be BooBoo to Stand's Yogi.

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OoohMaggie

OoohMaggie

Killing Madison off knowing ‘Nick’ wanted to leave would be an amazing decision to take, I just can’t see them doing it, Morgan will only bring so much support for the show with him, we don’t yet know if Al or Naomi are ‘good guys’ and will be joining the group permanently. I’ve never really been a Madison fan but I’ll take her over Alicia or Luciana any day so I hope she’s alive.

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Cherokee Rose

Cherokee Rose

22 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

we don’t yet know if Al or Naomi are ‘good guys’ and will be joining the group permanently

Yeah, I think they are "good guys", once we get thru their backstories, and the "bad" they've done. They probably do join the group... there's not many people left, and what's the point of introducing them otherwise. Thought the  showrunners said that this season is about exploring loners and isolated people, and bringing them together to learn how to function as a community.

22 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I’ve never really been a Madison fan but I’ll take her over Alicia or Luciana any day

Amen, to that! lol.

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BasilSeal

BasilSeal

On 29 May 2018 at 11:43 AM, OoohMaggie said:

Killing Madison off knowing ‘Nick’ wanted to leave would be an amazing decision to take, I just can’t see them doing it, Morgan will only bring so much support for the show with him, we don’t yet know if Al or Naomi are ‘good guys’ and will be joining the group permanently. I’ve never really been a Madison fan but I’ll take her over Alicia or Luciana any day so I hope she’s alive.

I think it would be fair to say that none of the characters could be defined as good guys, John and Morgan are perhaps the nearest  thing. One of the key themes of this and TWD, (this show does it better), is the concept that survival comes at the price of compromising one's morality. You survive at the expense of others, and no good deed goes unpunished. The characters have a stark choice, either give in and accept death, like Jenner does back at the beginning, or abandon morality and be prepare to awful things like killing stealing and generally fucking over your fellow man in order to protect you and yours.

Here we don't really know why Strand Alicia and Luciana are going after the vultures, in this world revenge is an extravagant luxury, and they're expending an awful lot of resources just to kill them, but to what end? do they think they're some malevolent force and getting rid of them is for the greater good? or is there some more complex motive, it could be that Strand and the other are the 'bad guys' in this situation.

Vultures, by definition, don't kill their prey, they wait for it to die by some other means then pick the carcass clean, we see them stripping every last bit from abandoned buildings, this is a powerful visual metaphor, they are stripping the last 'meat' from the rotting carcass of the old world, but it begs the question, given that they live in a bus, what do they want all those light bulbs and door hinges for?

Now this being TWD, it coul be that the writers simply thought this was a cool visual metaphor to throw in and didn't give much thought to the fact that they were taking things that were of little or no use to them, the other answer is they're trading them with someone else (the proctors?). Could it be that whoever uses all the lightbulbs doesn't play well with others? Maybe that is the threat that Mel know is coming?

I'm thinking maybe Madison and / or Naomi have come across Mel again an maybe have helped or saved him, and he' shared some info with them, hence Naomi telling Madison they need to leave. Mel's conviction that the stadium will fail could just be fatalism based on experience that this is what usually happen with communities in this world, and after all, we know he's right because we've seen the future, OTOH, maybe he knows what it is that's coming.

Neither explanation explains why Strand and the other blame the vultures for whatever has happened though. I think whatever is going on it's not what we may think, there will be a twist in there somewhere.

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Primstone

Primstone

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:25 PM, BasilSeal said:

I think it would be fair to say that none of the characters could be defined as good guys, John and Morgan are perhaps the nearest  thing. One of the key themes of this and TWD, (this show does it better), is the concept that survival comes at the price of compromising one's morality. You survive at the expense of others, and no good deed goes unpunished. The characters have a stark choice, either give in and accept death, like Jenner does back at the beginning, or abandon morality and be prepare to awful things like killing stealing and generally fucking over your fellow man in order to protect you and yours.

Here we don't really know why Strand Alicia and Luciana are going after the vultures, in this world revenge is an extravagant luxury, and they're expending an awful lot of resources just to kill them, but to what end? do they think they're some malevolent force and getting rid of them is for the greater good? or is there some more complex motive, it could be that Strand and the other are the 'bad guys' in this situation.

Vultures, by definition, don't kill their prey, they wait for it to die by some other means then pick the carcass clean, we see them stripping every last bit from abandoned buildings, this is a powerful visual metaphor, they are stripping the last 'meat' from the rotting carcass of the old world, but it begs the question, given that they live in a bus, what do they want all those light bulbs and door hinges for?

Now this being TWD, it coul be that the writers simply thought this was a cool visual metaphor to throw in and didn't give much thought to the fact that they were taking things that were of little or no use to them, the other answer is they're trading them with someone else (the proctors?). Could it be that whoever uses all the lightbulbs doesn't play well with others? Maybe that is the threat that Mel know is coming?

I'm thinking maybe Madison and / or Naomi have come across Mel again an maybe have helped or saved him, and he' shared some info with them, hence Naomi telling Madison they need to leave. Mel's conviction that the stadium will fail could just be fatalism based on experience that this is what usually happen with communities in this world, and after all, we know he's right because we've seen the future, OTOH, maybe he knows what it is that's coming.

Neither explanation explains why Strand and the other blame the vultures for whatever has happened though. I think whatever is going on it's not what we may think, there will be a twist in there somewhere.

I am thinking that the Vultures are working for someone else, and that is why they strip everything down, for the people they work for, who maybe wanting all this stuff to sell or start up a new civilization.

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Cherokee Rose

Cherokee Rose

The Vultures working for someone else would be an interesting and unforeseen twist. Maybe it's the cynic in me that can't see a larger group, employing such methods and people like the Vultures, doing so for the start of a new civilization... at least, not one for the good of all and the building up of society. Could it be that the light bulbs have no deeper meaning at all. Or by taking such things, the Vultures render the places they scavenge unusable for future groups.

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BasilSeal

BasilSeal

12 hours ago, Cherokee Rose said:

The Vultures working for someone else would be an interesting and unforeseen twist. Maybe it's the cynic in me that can't see a larger group, employing such methods and people like the Vultures, doing so for the start of a new civilization... at least, not one for the good of all and the building up of society. Could it be that the light bulbs have no deeper meaning at all. Or by taking such things, the Vultures render the places they scavenge unusable for future groups.

That's another possible take on it. Like i said, it's possible the writers are just using it as a cool visual metaphor, and haven't thought beyond that, we'll see, but i do think there's something more going on than there appears, Mel tells Madison it's the things you don't see coming that get you, (like the RPG that blows up his ambulance), i figure there's some unforeseen fate waiting for the stadium rather than the vultures either attacking or precipitating it's fall indirectly.

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BasilSeal

BasilSeal

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Of course, Madison for no apparent reason is now all sunshine and rainbows.  I am still waiting for the cause of her transformation during one of the episodes, but I am not holding my breath.

I don' think she's transformed, she's reacting differently because she's in a different situation. One of the key themes in TWD as a whole is that of 'good' people having to compromise their morality to survive in a hostile world where the rule of law no longer exists. If you survive it will be at the expense of others. Strand and Daniel had already made this choice in the old world, Madison Alicia and Nick hadn't, they've had to change their position from one of morality to one of pragmatism and expedience.

Although Madison has done some bad things out of necessity, she's never been presented as an inherently bad person, i don't think it's in any way inconsistent that she'd trying to be decent now, this is the whole point of trying to build a functioning community over the parasitic existence of the vultures, living off the failures of others. (though i imagine the irony of the stadium crew getting supplies from another community that had failed was intentional)

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raven

raven

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1 hour ago, BasilSeal said:

Although Madison has done some bad things out of necessity, she's never been presented as an inherently bad person, i don't think it's in any way inconsistent that she'd trying to be decent now, this is the whole point of trying to build a functioning community over the parasitic existence of the vultures, living off the failures of others. (though i imagine the irony of the stadium crew getting supplies from another community that had failed was intentional)

I agree; I thought Madison being unforgiving and murderous was not really her; after surviving the dam and apparently rescuing everyone, I can see her trying to build something with her family and a group of like-minded people.  She would still use violence to protect them if she has to but she's not using that as her first option, as we saw with the Vultures.

My theory (non-spoiled) is that we will back all the way up in time and see what actually happened after Madison crawled out of the water at the dam.

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BasilSeal

BasilSeal

34 minutes ago, raven said:

I agree; I thought Madison being unforgiving and murderous was not really her; after surviving the dam and apparently rescuing everyone, I can see her trying to build something with her family and a group of like-minded people.  She would still use violence to protect them if she has to but she's not using that as her first option, as we saw with the Vultures.

Madison has done bad things out of necessity precipitated by the dire situation they are in. She admits to Naomi that she has done bad things but says that these things don't define her, or prevent her from trying to do the right thing going forward. Helping people is as much about helping herself prove that this is the case. The problem is in the TWD universe doing the right thing invariably doesn't end well. The use of the phrase 'good people' is significant, it's repeated many times in TWD and fTWD and usually, said 'good people' end up doing something awful.

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