sistermagpie June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Emotionally I'd like to see them all make it as well, except for Paige. Paige to me is the most dangerous and unlikable of all of them, because she's basically a cult follower, willing to do anything anyone tells her to without examination. Yeah, getting off the train may signal an end to that for some, but it may also just be that Paige didn't want to go live in Russia, because Russia sucks, and she wouldn't have cool clothes, music, electricity, and like, you know, food she likes and stuff. I keep going back to that quote somebody posted here where Holly Taylor said she was rejecting her parents because she didn't trust them. Which there is evidence for--she just decided her mother was a liar because she figured out about the honey trapping and she saw them willing to let Henry go which she said made it seem like they didn't love him. So it's possible this is just Pastor Tim II. The people--well, really the person because she'd been following Elizabeth--her leader let her down by making her feel unsure, and now she's off to find another one. Since she's shown herself to still be not caught up on the bigger picture of things it seems unlikely she'd have any realistic idea of what she'd be facing now in a practical sense. Henry probably would be quicker to get himself a better set up and he's got some connections to help him do it. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, Bannon said: Not to go too far astray, but which conversation in The Crown? I find so many of the portrayals of Churchill in various shows and movies border on ridiculous one note caricature that it becomes a real problem. The recent movie with Gary Oldman as Churchill was one of the few portrayals where the writing began to afford this historical figure some of the needed complexity. It’s been a long time. So I don’t remember exactly. It may have been episode 7. I think it involved Churchill doing something underhanded that somehow involved the Queen. She was furious at him. That I’m sure about. I buy Churchill doing underhanded things- but nothing about this made sense. He wouldn’t have treated her that way. (Churchill was quite respectful of royalty.) She wouldn’t have taken that tone with him. I’m not even sure the issue was something she’d have been involved it, though I can’t recall exactly. It didn’t make sense at all to me. Not one thing about that scene rang true. I wish I could be more specific though. Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 (edited) A few more thoughts. @Bannon major sticking point, the gun drawn situation? I totally get what you are saying, I really do. If you eliminate the dead Teacups from the previous episodes, and especially if there are no dead FBI agents? That scene would be more believable to me. Normally, in the USA, cops drawing their guns does mean using them, but not always. Stan needed that gun drawn, because he was facing lethal killers (already established in many years of show, still didn't need the damn Teacup/FBI murders for that.) He was pointing it at his best friend. It's already established that Stan can have decent relationships with KGB, via Oleg. There were many reasons for that gun to be out, and for Stan NOT to use it, and even to let them go. The scene worked for me, as a stand alone. It was beautifully done, Elizabeth ready to pounce, Philip's masterful blend of truth and lies and emotions, Stan's pain, and final decision. I am SO glad I watched that. Stan: "DON'T MOVE! I SAID STOP MOVING!" was enough for me, I have no doubt at all that he would have shot Philip if Philip moved one more inch. Stan was not in mortal peril there, he could have shot both of them if they had made a move. It only fell apart for me because of the dead FBI agents...they were the 3 straws that broke that camel's back. That's why I keep saying as an episode? I loved it, loved almost all of it. As a finale though? It just failed because of writing errors and lead in episodes which make absolutely no sense to me as a whole piece. Each episode standing alone? Worked. Combine them with the finale? Massive fail. It's why I can agree with many who loved this about so very much, @Dev F's wonderful posts for example, and of course @sistermagpie's, and several others, and also see @Bannon's issues. I have to take it as a "WHOLE" and not just appreciate the stand alone beauty of various episodes this year. I still don't know if I've expressed my feelings adequately about that, how I can love it as an episode, but hate it as a finale. It's not JUST the "no ending ending with everyone in peril" it's also that they deliberately included shit earlier that increased the peril for all of their futures, and made Stan's choice at the end less believable. Even Stan walking in and lying to Aderholt was "too far" as well as him talking to Henry alone (which would NEVER happen.) Had Stan gone in and confessed to Aderholt and warned him about Renee, would I have liked it more? Probably. I wouldn't have "liked" it more as a stand alone episode, but as a "finale?" Hell yes. I still think I'm failing to convey how both things can be true for me here, but they are. Great episode, Terrible finale. Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Erin9 June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 It surprises me that they all agree Oleg is just stuck in prison forever. He was in the worst place at the end, I know. And granted he wasn’t officially spying. So no simple trade. But it seemed to me that IF, as Igor suggested, Gorbachev was in a position to help- which presumably he would be after handling the coup and Oleg would certainly deserve credit for helping prevent it- he’d try to work something out with the US- and the US would have some appreciation for that too. Of course, we can make that up anyway, but I’m surprised they all see that door as completely shut. @Umbelina I think I get what you’re trying to say. I think what you’re saying is- as an episode without some of the prior episodes factoring in ( ie death of FBI agents)-great. As something that necessarily includes all of that- no. Something like that? Regarding the revenge killings- I do see Stan’s as considerably worse than Claudia’s. Even though I really hate both. Murder and terrorizing for revenge just bothered me. It’s not so much that his is worse because I buy Claudia’s motivations more (which I do) due to Stan’s relationship with Amador being underdeveloped. It’s that Vlad was basically a terrified kid who wasn’t even supposed to be kidnapped, much less murdered after getting handed a hamburger. Yes- he was KGB. But- he was a kid. That’s what I saw when that scene played. And I now pointedly FF it. It was horrific. Stan forever lost a lot of “high” ground with me on that alone. @Plums nicely articulated the difference between these kills and the Jennings. 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 26 minutes ago, Umbelina said: A few more thoughts. @Bannon major sticking point, the gun drawn situation? I totally get what you are saying, I really do. If you eliminate the dead Teacups from the previous episodes, and especially if there are no dead FBI agents? That scene would be more believable to me. Normally, in the USA, cops drawing their guns does mean using them, but not always. Stan needed that gun drawn, because he was facing lethal killers (already established in many years of show, still didn't need the damn Teacup/FBI murders for that.) He was pointing it at his best friend. It's already established that Stan can have decent relationships with KGB, via Oleg. There were many reasons for that gun to be out, and for Stan NOT to use it, and even to let them go. The scene worked for me, as a stand alone. It was beautifully done, Elizabeth ready to pounce, Philip's masterful blend of truth and lies and emotions, Stan's pain, and final decision. I am SO glad I watched that. Stan: "DON'T MOVE! I SAID STOP MOVING!" was enough for me, I have no doubt at all that he would have shot Philip if Philip moved one more inch. Stan was not in mortal peril there, he could have shot both of them if they had made a move. It only fell apart for me because of the dead FBI agents...they were the 3 straws that broke that camel's back. That's why I keep saying as an episode? I loved it, loved almost all of it. As a finale though? It just failed because of writing errors and lead in episodes which make absolutely no sense to me as a whole piece. Each episode standing alone? Worked. Combine them with the finale? Massive fail. It's why I can agree with many who loved this about so very much, @Dev F's wonderful posts for example, and of course @sistermagpie's, and several others, and also see @Bannon's issues. I have to take it as a "WHOLE" and not just appreciate the stand alone beauty of various episodes this year. I still don't know if I've expressed my feelings adequately about that, how I can love it as an episode, but hate it as a finale. It's not JUST the "no ending ending with everyone in peril" it's also that they deliberately included shit earlier that increased the peril for all of their futures, and made Stan's choice at the end less believable. Even Stan walking in and lying to Aderholt was "too far" as well as him talking to Henry alone (which would NEVER happen.) Had Stan gone in and confessed to Aderholt and warned him about Renee, would I have liked it more? Probably. I wouldn't have "liked" it more as a stand alone episode, but as a "finale?" Hell yes. I still think I'm failing to convey how both things can be true for me here, but they are. Great episode, Terrible finale. Oh, I really do agree with you. If you had told me, beginning of the final season "Stan will discover Liz and Phil's true identities, and will decide to allow them to flee" , I could have imagined a number of ways it could have been very well done although it would be easier absent a sketch of Clark being provided to Stan. As written, however? Just a massive fail. I understand that not everyone hates gun pointing extended dialogue scenes as much as I do . I kind of liked how Justified usually wrote these scenes, with a U.S Marshall stating, in a very matter of fact tone, that he or she was going to shoot the suspect dead in 3 seconds, absent immediate compliance, and then doing so. The U.S. Marshalls in my city killed a suspect two days ago in exactly this fashion. The FBI isn't quite as likely to have these sorts of confrontations as The Marshall's Service, but the training is very similar, and far more extensive than what local and state police forces receive. If the weapon is drawn, the time for talking is ending, and the time for killing starts. Even allowing for more tolerance of such a scene however, I frankly would have preferred a confrontational conversation between Stan and the Jennings family that didn't involve a drawn weapon, because that dialogue could have been much, much much, more authentic, and thus more interesting. There were ways to write such a story, even with Phil and Liz getting away. Once again, the writers didn't trust the audience enough to refrain from writing a story without an extra heavy layer of cheese, so we get the parody worthy scene in the garage. It's regrettable. 2 Link to comment
Bannon June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Erin9 said: It surprises me that they all agree Oleg is just stuck in prison forever. He was in the worst place at the end, I know. And granted he wasn’t officially spying. So no simple trade. But it seemed to me that IF, as Igor suggested, Gorbachev was in a position to help- which presumably he would be after handling the coup and Oleg would certainly deserve credit for helping prevent it- he’d try to work something out with the US- and the US would have some appreciation for that too. Of course, we can make that up anyway, but I’m surprised they all see that door as completely shut. @Umbelina I think I get what you’re trying to say. I think what you’re saying is- as an episode without some of the prior episodes factoring in ( ie death of FBI agents)-great. As something that necessarily includes all of that- no. Something like that? Regarding the revenge killings- I do see Stan’s as considerably worse than Claudia’s. Even though I really hate both. Murder and terrorizing for revenge just bothered me. It’s not so much that his is worse because I buy Claudia’s motivations more (which I do) due to Stan’s relationship with Amador being underdeveloped. It’s that Vlad was basically a terrified kid who wasn’t even supposed to be kidnapped, much less murdered after getting handed a hamburger. Yes- he was KGB. But- he was a kid. That’s what I saw when that scene played. And I now pointedly FF it. It was horrific. Stan forever lost a lot of “high” ground with me on that alone. @Plums nicely articulated the difference between these kills and the Jennings. I could never figure out what ground Stan was on, because the writers kept changing it depending on where they wanted the story to go. I never bought the revenge murder committed by Stan, but there was very little I bought in how he was written. My least favorite scene in the entire show was when Stan and Phil find out their respective son and daughter may be making out behind a closed door, and Stan starts getting humorous about it. These writers made Stan such a moron that a guy, whose profession, and sometimes his life, has depended on being very perceptive to how people are likely to react to situations, is completely clueless about not joking, with the father of a teenage daughter, about the daughter getting sexual with your older teenage son. WTF? 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, Erin9 said: It’s not so much that his is worse because I buy Claudia’s motivations more (which I do) due to Stan’s relationship with Amador being underdeveloped. It’s that Vlad was basically a terrified kid who wasn’t even supposed to be kidnapped, much less murdered after getting handed a hamburger. Yes- he was KGB. But- he was a kid. That’s what I saw when that scene played. And I now pointedly FF it. It was horrific. Stan forever lost a lot of “high” ground with me on that alone. @Plums nicely articulated the difference between these kills and the Jennings. Also Stan's doing it as an FBI agent. Claudia, in her role, obviously isn't going to be ordered to follow much in the way of respecting the rights of people who get in their way. The FBI is supposed to follow the law. And for a very different kind of revenge. Claudia was killing somebody who did do the thing she was killing him for. That is, he didn't kill Zhukov but he was a bureaucrat who would have been involved in okay-ing it. In general people don't consider that kind of person innocent just because they didn't get their hands dirty themselves. In some ways they're seen as worse because they decide these things without having to be personal about it. Where as Vlad was so low on the totem pole it was just snatching a random person who'd not only had nothing to do with the deaths of the agents that assassin was targeting, he wouldn't have ever been asked about his opinion. Wouldn't even know about it. It would be like if the KGB in response to the death of Zhukov had gone after Gene Craft, the IT guy. Of course the KGB kills plenty of equally innocent people, but they also just admit they're doing that. They don't classify them in some faux-soldier category to make it even. Of course I'm not trying to say here that Claudia's better than Stan or the KGB is better than the FBI overall. Just in these two instances for these two individual characters what Stan's doing is a lot darker, imo. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Erin9 said: @Umbelina I think I get what you’re trying to say. I think what you’re saying is- as an episode without some of the prior episodes factoring in ( ie death of FBI agents)-great. As something that necessarily includes all of that- no. Something like that? Exactly. The episodes in the final season worked completely against this as a satisfying finale for me. Remove a couple of those issues, and I would have liked it. I still like it as an episode very much but detest it as a finale. As I said here: 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: Either clear Renee of being KGB, or have her arrested, or her mission aborted earlier in the season No season long murder spree for Elizabeth DO NOT KILL FUCKING FBI AGENTS!!! I'm firm on this, that would be Stan's FULL STOP about letting them go, it doesn't matter to cops if they knew the dead cops, it only matters that they WERE cops. They say it's because "anyone who would kill a cop would kill anyone, so it's more dangerous, so of course we go after them harder" but the truth is? It's an unwritten law, a code. Do something other than sending Philip and Elizabeth back to face nearly certain deaths from the Coup people, or for crying out loud don't make them all powerful, from every single area, political, military, AND KGB. Have it be simply a KGB thing, so that all of them could be neutralized before they return. By all means, kill Claudia in the USA immediately since she knows you've foiled the plan. Do not have Henry's school fees even be a damn question. Either let the scholarship be a full boat, or have Philip pre-pay them until graduation. It would be MUCH more likely for him to escape the system if he already had a place to live, eat, be educated safely, and his summer job and place to live with adult supervision already be handled by his friend's dad. After that? He's 17, he could probably be declared an emancipated minor. Or you know, have him ALREADY be 17 and had work experience behind him at the tanning factory. 52 minutes ago, Bannon said: Even allowing for more tolerance of such a scene however, I frankly would have preferred a confrontational conversation between Stan and the Jennings family that didn't involve a drawn weapon, because that dialogue could have been much, much much, more authentic, and thus more interesting. There were ways to write such a story, even with Phil and Liz getting away. Once again, the writers didn't trust the audience enough to refrain from writing a story without an extra heavy layer of cheese, so we get the parody worthy scene in the garage. It's regrettable. It's hard for me to imagine that conversation without a gun drawn situation though. Stan's a very experienced FBI agent, he's been around for a long time, and been in life and death situations before. He's even had his gun drawn on an armed man before and he DID NOT SHOOT until the man went for the weapon (the roof walk in to the KGB former decorated Viet Nam vet guy.) As an aside, I was present when something similar happened in real life. The cop (my brother) definitely needed to draw his weapon, but he was older and experienced, and he did not need to shoot. He was out of uniform, and with gun drawn he told me to get his badge out of his back pocket to show the two men. With the gun and the badge, both stopped and essentially gave up, were arrested. I was incredibly impressed with they way he handled it. Later he told me that he was impressed that I stepped behind him, out of gun sites, since he needed to have clear shots at both very quickly without distraction. My brother was so reasonable and calm with them, that they didn't panic. As I said, I've spend a decent amount of time around cops, each of them good cops, not trigger happy, not shooting unless absolutely needed to protect themselves or others. It comes with age and experience and Stan has both. The truth is, once Philip and Elizabeth both stopped moving, he was not in mortal danger. He could have shot them both, and would have. He didn't need to in order to survive. That judgment was proven accurate when Elizabeth didn't run him down with the car when they left. She could have EASILY done that. So then we just come down to the moral choice, but only if we ignore the lead ins to this episode, the dead FBI guys, the teacups. That's where it fails for me. 37 minutes ago, Bannon said: I could never figure out what ground Stan was on, because the writers kept changing it depending on where they wanted the story to go. I never bought the revenge murder committed by Stan, but there was very little I bought in how he was written. My least favorite scene in the entire show was when Stan and Phil find out their respective son and daughter may be making out behind a closed door, and Stan starts getting humorous about it. These writers made Stan such a moron that a guy, whose profession, and sometimes his life, has depended on being very perceptive to how people are likely to react to situations, is completely clueless about not joking, with the father of a teenage daughter, about the daughter getting sexual with your older teenage son. WTF? I've defended Stan since the show started. I agree though, the writing for him has been shaky at times. I still see him as a good FBI agent, great really, considering his accomplishments. I also see his human failings, and failings as an agent, which again? Created a complicated man, and I'm all for that. I don't think he's a moron, but do agree with you that his lack of perception has been SO off and on with the writers. He sees right through Zenaida and Martha for example, his "senses" there are so sharp and he's ahead of everyone on those. Then he fails to notice when Nina turns on him, and I do get "love blindness" but it was still hard to buy. I DID buy him not figuring out Philip and Elizabeth for so long though. I can't buy him letting cop killers leave. It's a mixed bag. Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina buy not by typo 2 Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Of course I'm not trying to say here that Claudia's better than Stan or the KGB is better than the FBI overall. Just in these two instances for these two individual characters what Stan's doing is a lot darker, imo. BEYOND a doubt there. Also, Elizabeth should have killed Claudia the minute she decided to go against her. That whole confession scene was nuts. Claudia would have had her and Philip taken out while still in the USA, without hesitation. Claudia would do anything for the USSR, ANYTHING. She's given her entire life to maintaining it, she's 100% a believer. Since Elizabeth didn't (what the fuck writers?) she was risking the lives of both Philip and Paige, and now that she's in Russia? She's in even more danger. Once again showing why the finale didn't work for me, another scene that lead into it that MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Umbelina said: He sees right through Zenaida and Martha for example, his "senses" there are so sharp and he's ahead of everyone on those. Then he fails to notice when Nina turns on him, and I do get "love blindness" but it was still hard to buy. I DID by him not figuring out Philip and Elizabeth for so long though. I can't buy him letting cop killers leave. I tend to see the pattern as Stan not seeing things when he has some emotional dependence on the person. (Which I know Bannon has argued that makes very little sense with Nina, especially and he's got a point!) With Nina she put him in the position of a hero which I think he really craved after whatever he'd been before the start of the show. With the Jennings they become a surrogate family for him when he loses his own. But it's interesting that it almost seems like on one hand the show had Stan becoming healthier throughout the series--ironically through his interaction with the Jennings--and this led to him having the ability to start suspecting them the way he suspected Martha and Zinaida. But otoh they throw in Renee who seems like a huge step back. Like rather than show him being emotionally healed by finding a real relationship he marries someone who seems to me to embody the worst of his emotional damage. It would be tragic if the show had just suggested that his betrayal by Philip left Stan poised to go back to the kind of emotional dark place he'd been when he started. But Renee make it seem like the point is more that he never left it. It's almost like saying he'd fooled himself all along and I can actually support that as his story. 4 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Also, Elizabeth should have killed Claudia the minute she decided to go against her. That whole confession scene was nuts. Claudia would have had her and Philip taken out while still in the USA, without hesitation. Claudia would do anything for the USSR, ANYTHING. She's given her entire life to maintaining it, she's 100% a believer. Jennings, Elizabeth almost seems to say the same thing when you think about what comes next. Elizabeth lets Claudia go and then is confronted with Paige who's discovered all her lies because of the last person she let live, Jackson. Elizabeth, Philip and Stan are all in a place where they support a strategic arms reduction in their life at the end, but Claudia absolutely is not. She opposes START and would not hesitate to kill Elizabeth, Philip or Paige. She's stayed true to character in rejecting human relationships in favor of the cause--from the first she was what Elizabeth might become. So it's a happier ending for Elizabeth in that her soul has come into the light and Claudia's remains in darkness but that also means that nobody could think Claudia might afford her the same protection Elizabeth gave her. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 (edited) Yes, and Elizabeth would KNOW that. She would have to kill Claudia to protect herself, Philip, and even Paige, and Henry left without parents. Then, they give us a finale that has Elizabeth and Philip with not just Claudia wanting them dead, but a bunch of powerful people in the USSR who will also want them dead, and only know about their betrayal because ELIZABETH DIDN'T KILL CLAUDIA immediately after confessing to her. Major fail writers, just astonishing really. Unless the intent was "Philip and Elizabeth go back to the USSR to be murdered." Maybe it was. Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina forgot Henry, now I've become much too much like these writers.... Link to comment
Plums June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 I think the finale telegraphed pretty clearly that because Philip and Elizabeth made it to Russia with the coup message, and Arkady met them there, that they were in the clear because he had all the information he needed to gain the upper hand on the conspiracy faction. I'm sure it helped that a high level official in the US Rezidentura tried and failed to assassinate one of their own negotiators. I imagine everyone who can't be directly implicated that may have been involved will be keeping their heads down to save face. In my head, the Party quietly purges people they can prove were in on it, and may even scapegoat poor Tatiana as a lone wolf publicly, since they can't hide her actions. But that's all just my own speculation. In any event, my interpretation of the end is the Philip and Elizabeth are safe from anyone related to the coup because their story transitions to living in the aftermath of what all their decisions have wrought wrt their children. They have to learn to readjust to more or less civilian life in Russia, and they have to adjust to what their marriage is now and the loss of their children, and honestly, they were basically estranged and at cross purposes for the majority of season 6. They didn't really deal with any of those issues because everything was back-burnered in the immediate need to escape and bring the coup message to the reformers. Now they're there and together and stuck that way and have a whole host of new challenges on top of their old ones. At their core, they love each other more than any problems they could have, but now that they're out of immediate danger and will transition to settling down and with the thought that they'll never see or speak to their kids again, they have to deal with each other. That's where their story goes. The idea of the pro-coup elements just taking them out doesn't feel dramatically natural at all to me. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Plums said: The idea of the pro-coup elements just taking them out doesn't feel dramatically natural at all to me. Why not? The Coup does succeed, not in saving the USSR, but in deposing Gorbachev, just a few years later. The show deliberately spelled out how powerful the people were in the Coup. Military, Politically highly placed figures, along with much of the KGB. Add in Claudia, knowing all, yet inexplicably still alive? They are walking dead nobodies in the USSR compared to that group. Gorbachev isn't strong enough to protect them, at all. Arkady may also now be implicated since he picked them up at the border, and obviously gave orders to the border guards. Oleg's dad is a dead man as well. The KGB/Coup people will figure out the coded phone calls now that Oleg's been arrested. The USSR isn't the USA. They are all dead, that's just the way things work there. The Coup people HAVE power, and they don't WANT to be outed, and they don't want Gorbachev to succeed. Arkady, Oleg, Oleg's dad, Philip, and Elizabeth went against them, and are still around to go against them more. That just wouldn't happen. Link to comment
Bannon June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Exactly. The episodes in the final season worked completely against this as a satisfying finale for me. Remove a couple of those issues, and I would have liked it. I still like it as an episode very much but detest it as a finale. As I said here: It's hard for me to imagine that conversation without a gun drawn situation though. Stan's a very experienced FBI agent, he's been around for a long time, and been in life and death situations before. He's even had his gun drawn on an armed man before and he DID NOT SHOOT until the man went for the weapon (the roof walk in to the KGB former decorated Viet Nam vet guy.) As an aside, I was present when something similar happened in real life. The cop (my brother) definitely needed to draw his weapon, but he was older and experienced, and he did not need to shoot. He was out of uniform, and with gun drawn he told me to get his badge out of his back pocket to show the two men. With the gun and the badge, both stopped and essentially gave up, were arrested. I was incredibly impressed with they way he handled it. Later he told me that he was impressed that I stepped behind him, out of gun sites, since he needed to have clear shots at both very quickly without distraction. My brother was so reasonable and calm with them, that they didn't panic. As I said, I've spend a decent amount of time around cops, each of them good cops, not trigger happy, not shooting unless absolutely needed to protect themselves or others. It comes with age and experience and Stan has both. The truth is, once Philip and Elizabeth both stopped moving, he was not in mortal danger. He could have shot them both, and would have. He didn't need to in order to survive. That judgment was proven accurate when Elizabeth didn't run him down with the car when they left. She could have EASILY done that. So then we just come down to the moral choice, but only if we ignore the lead ins to this episode, the dead FBI guys, the teacups. That's where it fails for me. I've defended Stan since the show started. I agree though, the writing for him has been shaky at times. I still see him as a good FBI agent, great really, considering his accomplishments. I also see his human failings, and failings as an agent, which again? Created a complicated man, and I'm all for that. I don't think he's a moron, but do agree with you that his lack of perception has been SO off and on with the writers. He sees right through Zenaida and Martha for example, his "senses" there are so sharp and he's ahead of everyone on those. Then he fails to notice when Nina turns on him, and I do get "love blindness" but it was still hard to buy. I DID buy him not figuring out Philip and Elizabeth for so long though. I can't buy him letting cop killers leave. It's a mixed bag. I think you could have wriiten a very plausible story, especially absent the final season murderpalooza, where Liz and Phil get arrested, but are immediately deported, in the interests of maintaining momentum for disarmament, especially if Liz and Phil were central to stopping an anti-Gorbachev coup. Like I've noted before, if somebody has value, the Federal Government has a history of letting the somebody walk, even if the somebody has double digit murders on their sheet. A confrontation between Stan and Liz and Phil about the years of deceit, and the fates of their children, in an interrogation room, no weapons drawn, Liz and Phil knowing they are going back to the USSR, could have been one great great, great, organically developed scenes in all of television history. The writers would have had to trust the audience, however, to simply be drawn to these characters, with none of the cheesy, melodramatic, crap. More LeCarre, less Ludlum. These writers, ultimately, never fully trusted the audience. (Edit) To add on, for this alternate ending to work, it has to be explained how the pro Gorbachev forces quickly round up the coup plotters. Claudia, back in Moscow, getting the .22 caliber scalp massage would have worked. Edited June 14, 2018 by Bannon 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, Plums said: I think the finale telegraphed pretty clearly that because Philip and Elizabeth made it to Russia with the coup message, and Arkady met them there, that they were in the clear because he had all the information he needed to gain the upper hand on the conspiracy faction. I'm sure it helped that a high level official in the US Rezidentura tried and failed to assassinate one of their own negotiators. I imagine everyone who can't be directly implicated that may have been involved will be keeping their heads down to save face. In my head, the Party quietly purges people they can prove were in on it, and may even scapegoat poor Tatiana as a lone wolf publicly, since they can't hide her actions. But that's all just my own speculation. FWIW, that's what I think the show is saying too. But it's still important in terms of the characters that Claudia would never send Elizabeth on her way the Claudia does with her. Claudia says she's going back to the USSR, presumably thinking she's maybe going to meet death there herself. She has no regrets about her actions where Elizabeth has now allowed herself to feel doubt. Claudia is the ultimate example of what Elizabeth always saw as strength--and there are advantages to that for her. She's going back to the USSR where her family is, but she won't be able to connect to them either. 13 minutes ago, Plums said: In any event, my interpretation of the end is the Philip and Elizabeth are safe from anyone related to the coup because their story transitions to living in the aftermath of what all their decisions have wrought wrt their children. They have to learn to readjust to more or less civilian life in Russia, and they have to adjust to what their marriage is now and the loss of their children, and honestly, they were basically estranged and at cross purposes for the majority of season 6. They didn't really deal with any of those issues because everything was back-burnered in the immediate need to escape and bring the coup message to the reformers. Now they're there and together and stuck that way and have a whole host of new challenges on top of their old ones. At their core, they love each other more than any problems they could have, but now that they're out of immediate danger and will transition to settling down and with the thought that they'll never see or speak to their kids again, they have to deal with each other. That's where their story goes. The idea of the pro-coup elements just taking them out doesn't feel dramatically natural at all to me. It's interesting how in some ways you can look at the whole season as them working out these issues via the spy stuff. We've seen before that the two of them are able to drop whatever problems they're having when there's a crisis--even a small one (like when Elizabeth walks in looking dazed after killing Lisa). But also a lot of the stuff they do throughout the season can be mapped as one long fight that isn't completely over when things go topsy-turvey but close enough that they can shove everything aside for a while and get back to it instead of letting it fester. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, Umbelina said: BEYOND a doubt there. Also, Elizabeth should have killed Claudia the minute she decided to go against her. That whole confession scene was nuts. Claudia would have had her and Philip taken out while still in the USA, without hesitation. Claudia would do anything for the USSR, ANYTHING. She's given her entire life to maintaining it, she's 100% a believer. Since Elizabeth didn't (what the fuck writers?) she was risking the lives of both Philip and Paige, and now that she's in Russia? She's in even more danger. Once again showing why the finale didn't work for me, another scene that lead into it that MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. To me this wasn’t really a lead in issue because I would have literally have had to watch that scene and not seen the whole show at all to buy it fully. They were basically declaring an open civil war within the KGB- beyond just the coup issues- and let each other walk anyway. No way Claudia lets Elizabeth walk. Or Philip and Paige. And Elizabeth would absolutely defend herself and her family from Claudia as an obvious threat. I loved the final scene between them. Loved it. But I don’t really see Claudia and Elizabeth letting each other walk. I look at this as- the writers wanted to focus on relationships and not killing. They could have let both ladies have their say so we get to enjoy the moment- and then Elizabeth shot first. Nothing in their characters that we saw depicted on screen for years allows the other to walk away. Ever. Conversely- I buy what happened with Stan. Stan’s character, how he handles personal relationships, his relationship with the Jennings, etc- totally different thing. Not sure if it makes sense why I fully accept one, but not the other, but I do. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bannon said: (Edit) To add on, for this alternate ending to work, it has to be explained how the pro Gorbachev forces quickly round up the coup plotters. Claudia, back in Moscow, getting the .22 caliber scalp massage would have worked. To do that would be deliberately rewriting history though. There really WAS a Gorbachev Coup, the military, political leaders, and KGB really were involved, it happened later, but it's very easy to suppose that they were plotting much earlier, something like that takes years to plan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d'état_attempt https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/coup-attempt-against-gorbachev-begins https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/coup-attempt-against-gorbachev-collapses That alone makes me think they would have removed people that were in their way, specifically, Arkady, Oleg's dad, and most certainly the least powerful of all, Elizabeth and Philip. Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Plums June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 21 minutes ago, Umbelina said: 34 minutes ago, Plums said: The idea of the pro-coup elements just taking them out doesn't feel dramatically natural at all to me. Why not? I get what you're saying, but that just isn't what this show is about to me at all. In any event, Gorbachev was deposed in a coup four years later, yes, but that was in an effort to return to the status quo of the pre-reform system, and that failed spectacularly. The Soviet Union dissolved and Russia descended into chaos and organized crime until the oligarchs took control. The intelligence apparatus didn't become powerful again until Putin became president. Link to comment
Bannon June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Umbelina said: To do that would be deliberately rewriting history though. There really WAS a Gorbachev Coup, the military, political leaders, and KGB really were involved, it happened later, but it's very easy to suppose that they were plotting much earlier, something like that takes years to plan. Well, having a KGB Rezidentura assassinated, as she tries to assassinate Gorbachev's START negotiator in D.C. is pretty ahistorical, so I'd say that ship sailed. Gorbachev would hardly be the first political leader to survive a 1st coup attempt, only to lose power in a 2nd. Link to comment
Umbelina June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Do something other than sending Philip and Elizabeth back to face nearly certain deaths from the Coup people, or for crying out loud don't make them all powerful, from every single area, political, military, AND KGB. Have it be simply a KGB thing, so that all of them could be neutralized before they return. By all means, kill Claudia in the USA immediately since she knows you've foiled the plan. I was rereading my posts and realized THIS is the real issue, at least as far as Philip and Elizabeth continuing to breath goes. Had Elizabeth killed Claudia, she and Philip could live safely in Russia, because Claudia wouldn't have been able to tell the Coup people that Elizabeth and Philip betrayed them. They could have simply returned as heroes who had been blown after twenty difficult years posing as Americans. They wouldn't have even had to tell Arkady what they did, and they probably wouldn't do that, because if Arkady was arrested he would tell about them under torture. One thing. One small thing, kill Claudia, and their problems would be over. Elizabeth, if confronted about the Coup involvement by Coup people could simply tell them that she couldn't help them because they were blown so had to leave quickly. At that point, they probably wouldn't need to kill her, or keep her in the group either, since back in the USSR she'd have lost value to them. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 55 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Conversely- I buy what happened with Stan. Stan’s character, how he handles personal relationships, his relationship with the Jennings, etc- totally different thing. Not sure if it makes sense why I fully accept one, but not the other, but I do. It makes sense to me. Stan and Claudia are such different characters in different situations that the choices are very different. Stan's not defending his own life, for one. He's also not dealing with the kind of crisis in his country that the Russian characters think they are. Hey! That just made me realize that this is another little echo of season 1. Specifically In Control. The Russian characters are all talking about a coup in the US after Reagan's shot and Haig has the nuclear football. The Americans all assume it's a nutjob and don't see Haig as actually taking control, he's just puffing himself up. Both sides are working with a national pattern that's familiar. (Philip is the one Russian character who doesn't think it's a coup.) Here in the last season there really is a coup--and it's the fucking Russians, as Philip says. Stan says twice that he doesn't care who's the leader in Russia--iow, again you've got the two sides reacting very differently to an attack on the leader of one of them. The Russians overreact to the American situation, Stan underreacts to the Russian one. 6 Link to comment
companionenvy June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 When it comes to predicting P&E's future, either option has some significant problems. Logically, I take Umbelina's point that even though the anti-coup forces had won for the moment, the fact that Claudia lived to tell the still-powerful anti-Gorbachev camp about Elizabeth's betrayal (and, possibly, to take revenge herself), means that they should be in danger, although I don't think their deaths would be inevitable. So assuming that P&E are in imminent danger and are likely to be killed soon after the episode satisfies that logical condition. However, it also causes what is to me a much more serious narrative problem. For one, if the situation were that dire, P&E would be aware of it. Yet, neither of them suggest that maybe going back to the USSR is too dangerous, or acts like they're between a rock and a hard place in which either option - facing the music in the US or going back home -- is virtually suicidal. Instead, this is framed as P&E putting their long-time escape plan into action. If P&E think they're walking into a near-certain assassination in the Soviet Union, they would have at least considered using their years of experience as spies and convenient fake IDs to disappear into Canada or even somewhere else in the US. They don't. When the do get back to the USSR, they make it through at the border, meet up with their ally Arkady, and then, most importantly, share a contemplative scene in which they discuss "getting used to" their new lives. So, we have to conclude that highly trained and anything-but-naive superspies Philip and Elizabeth do not believe that they are in serious, imminent danger of death. Neither does the show itself do anything to suggest that P&E are obviously deluded, like flash to a scene of a vengeful Claudia reporting to her faction in Moscow. So to me, it comes down to a choice. To believe P&E are reasonably safe requires some leap in logic. But to believe P&E are going to be murdered by Claudia's enforcers in short order requires me, first of all, to believe that P&E are totally delusional and, more than that, to read entirely against the tone and sense of the Jenningses final scenes; the way Weisberg and Fields leave P&E is totally inexplicable if what they wanted to convey is "whether they knew it or not P&E are probably going to die very soon." So I choose to do the former. It helps that while I agree that it is a fault that P&E don't even consider the possibility of danger from the hardliners, I don't think that it requires such total suspension of disbelief to think that they might get out of it. Having stopped the coup, for now, the Gorbachev partisans are ascendant. Some of the higher-ups in the pro-coup leadership are likely to get purged, and Claudia perhaps among them. They'll regroup, we know, but four years is a long time, and the simultaneous fall of the Soviet Union is going to keep them plenty busy. For all that Claudia might love to kill Elizabeth, doing so is not going to be risk free for her, as Elizabeth and Philip are going to have some natural allies in high places, and indeed may even have been touted - if not publicly than in intelligence circles -- as national heroes. And Claudia might take the risk - but she might also decide she has bigger fish to fry and abandon the now empty gesture of getting revenge on P&E in favor of doing something proactive to shape the USSR's future. Or maybe she's very high on the enemies list of the Gorbachev people, and is lying low in Siberia somewhere. Or she might try to kill Elizabeth and Philip, and fail, winding up dead or in prison. In any case, it doesn't seem all that unrealistic to me to think that P&E might be OK. In real-world terms, it might not be the most probable outcome, but it is possible. I feel the same way, by the way, about the idea that realism would dictate that Stan's role in the escape is going to come out, leading to disgrace and probable imprisonment. In the first place, realistic or not, our final scenes of Stan include Stan talking to Henry (presumably with FBI blessing, suggesting he is still in their good graces for the moment), and Stan managing to acquit himself credibly with an unsuspecting Aderholt. These would be odd choices if you as a writer thought Stan's future was likely to include exposure and punishment. But again, whether or not it is the most probable outcome, I don't think it requires outrageous suspension of disbelief to see Stan weathering the storm, in practical if not emotional terms. I have no doubt Stan will feel some guilt over what he's done, but that doesn't necessarily manifest itself in turning himself in; he can resign from CI, or maybe the FBI entirely, and continue to feel guilty without offering himself up for a lengthy prison sentence. No one will be suspicious of his desire to resign after finding out that his neighbors and close friends were the spies he had been chasing. Stan's always been something of a lone wolf, so I can also buy that he'd be content with monitoring Renee himself rather than feeling honor-bound to tell others of a suspicion that would force Stan to confess what had happened in the garage. Maybe he sabotages her chances of getting the job at the FBI (either through Adherolt or by registering his opposition so strongly to Renee that, if she is a spy, she has to change tactics), or at least makes sure she isn't assigned to CI. The other wrinkle is Paige. After that episode, I don't think it is inevitable that she cracks. I think she'll spill quite a lot in order to work out a deal, but as no one suspects Stan, no one will be digging to try to force her to implicate him or suspect that Paige is lying for him. As it seems clear that Stan is going to maintain some relationship with Henry, Paige should be at least smart enough to recognize that the connection between Stan and Henry that she herself promoted is going to be in jeopardy if she tells everyone that Mr. Beeman let spy mommy and daddy go. So again, the suspension of disbelief required just isn't all that great, IMO. 4 Link to comment
Oosala June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 On 5/31/2018 at 6:21 AM, KBrownie said: FWIW, I don't think "fighting for one's country" is an accectable excuse for anyone to do the types of things the CIA AND Phillip and Elizabeth have done. But what about our armed forces, our war fighters, our military? They're "fighting for one's country." Maybe it's OK when they're fighting for OUR country. 3 Link to comment
companionenvy June 14, 2018 Share June 14, 2018 32 minutes ago, Oosala said: But what about our armed forces, our war fighters, our military? They're "fighting for one's country." Maybe it's OK when they're fighting for OUR country. KBrownie specifically included the CIA in the original statement. There are certain things that aren't OK no matter which side is doing it. To what extent the respective sides are doing it, and precisely what is and isn't beyond the pale even in a military context are discussions that probably lie beyond the purview of this thread, and maybe this forum as a whole. Link to comment
Fouts June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 Some things I liked: 1. Stan having his first and last big encounters about Philip the Spy both in garages in the first and last episodes. The first time he pushed his suspicions away, the second one he desperately wished he could push them away. 2. Elizabeth getting not-so-subtly shot down as a loving human being-- as a mom by Paige (how will Henry survive without DAD?), and as a spouse by Phillip (my entire life has been one big miserable and friendless hell-fest except for Stan!) At first I was a little disappointed by all the loose strings, but then realized nothing in this story could or should get tied up too neatly. It was an inspired mess of story-telling, and a definitive ending wouldn't have rung true with the series. Instead, we're trusted to live with the hints, just like I absolutely know that Martha's adopted daughter brought her enough joy to continue and give her life meaning in Russia. And Phillip will eventually connect with his Russian son, helping fill the hole in his heart that was Henry. As someone else said earlier, my only real unfulfilled wish is not getting to see Elizabeth witness the collapse of the Berlin wall. How about we pretend Elizabeth exhibited the same face of distress and horror that she displayed through the train window for Paige? Works for me. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 We don't know if Elizabeth even told Philip what she did with Granny. Either way, I doubt Granny would do it herself, she'd tell the coup people, and one of them will. Probably that General she met with would have it taken care of, he has the most to lose. Not a chance in hell Paige won't crack under questioning, just none, zip, nada. She will be questioned SO many times, by SO many people, and not all of those people will be understanding or polite. She's a doofus. Link to comment
Bannon June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fouts said: Some things I liked: 1. Stan having his first and last big encounters about Philip the Spy both in garages in the first and last episodes. The first time he pushed his suspicions away, the second one he desperately wished he could push them away. 2. Elizabeth getting not-so-subtly shot down as a loving human being-- as a mom by Paige (how will Henry survive without DAD?), and as a spouse by Phillip (my entire life has been one big miserable and friendless hell-fest except for Stan!) At first I was a little disappointed by all the loose strings, but then realized nothing in this story could or should get tied up too neatly. It was an inspired mess of story-telling, and a definitive ending wouldn't have rung true with the series. Instead, we're trusted to live with the hints, just like I absolutely know that Martha's adopted daughter brought her enough joy to continue and give her life meaning in Russia. And Phillip will eventually connect with his Russian son, helping fill the hole in his heart that was Henry. As someone else said earlier, my only real unfulfilled wish is not getting to see Elizabeth witness the collapse of the Berlin wall. How about we pretend Elizabeth exhibited the same face of distress and horror that she displayed through the train window for Paige? Works for me. Nah, Liz immediately flys to Berlin, and stabs 25% of the city's population to death. When Paige spots her while watching the evening news for the first time in her life, and calls to express her horror, Liz says "The people of Berlin are VERY troubled, Paige!" Paige replies, "I GET it, Mom!". Stan, also watching the Liz carnage on the news, says "Hey, isn't that the mother of the girl who may have given my son an inauthentic dating experience!? Man, does that ever make me mad!" Henry, sitting in the room with Stan, says, "For fuck's sake, living with this lackwit is worse than being with the homicidal creeps I grew up with! I might stab myself!" Renee says, "Honey, I think I want to be President of the United States! Do ya' think I have a chance?" Stan replies "Honey, this is the bestest, superduperest country in the Milky Way Galaxy probably in all galaxies! OF COURSE, a woman who might be a KGB illegal and no discernable history for the past 20 years, despite supposedly being born in 1947, can become President of the United States!" Henry gets out a hockey skate, and presses the edge of the blade against his jugular........ Edited June 15, 2018 by Bannon Link to comment
companionenvy June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Not a chance in hell Paige won't crack under questioning, just none, zip, nada. She will be questioned SO many times, by SO many people, and not all of those people will be understanding or polite. She's a doofus. But even in real life -- so, not granting the show even a modicum of artistic license -- law enforcement doesn't always get suspects to crack. The first case that comes to mind is that of Katherine Russell Tsarnaev, the wife of the older of the two Boston Marathon Bombers. From what I've read on the case, it is almost certain that she knew of her husband's plans. Most damningly, investigators found google searches on her personal computer for "what are the rewards for the wife of a shahid (martyr)," as well as reading material that included an Al Qaeda magazine. This was not a sophisticated operative with formal training; she was a 24 year old from suburban Rhode Island. She also had a young child, which I'm sure the FBI took advantage of in questioning her, painting the possibility of never seeing her daughter again. But apparently, she never broke, and they never managed to charge her with anything. And that was after many hours worth of meetings with authorities. I'll grant that Katherine Russell, whose family was fairly well-off, probably had access to a better lawyer than Paige is likely to, and that it is quite possible she didn't actually do anything substantial to further the plot, whereas Paige was actively participating on missions. But Paige also doesn't have to claim total innocence for the interpretation of the ending where Paige and Stan are going to avoid major trouble to work. All she has to do is not talk about the confrontation with Stan and hold enough about her own role back that a deal in which she avoids prison stays on the table. And I'm not convinced that she couldn't get such a deal even if she were totally honest about her role, so really, the only thing she absolutely has to keep to herself is the garage confrontation that no one has reason to suspect ever happened. Even if we think that Paige herself is such a moron (and she may be) that she's about to turn herself into authorities and start confessing without bothering to try for a deal, if she were to do that, her likeliest starting point would be turning herself into Stan, who is going to be able to tell her (for his own interest and hers) that she needs to not say anything until she gets a lawyer. Even the most inept public defender is going to be able to counsel her to hold back until she gets some assurances of immunity or at least clemency. 2 Link to comment
Oosala June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 I remember before this show started, I was fascinated by the premise. After watching the premiere, I said to my son, "I don't know if I can watch this show. I'm cheering for the bad guys." And sometimes I didn't fully understand what I'd just watched (subtitles!) and I had to jump onto the Forums to find out what I'd just watched. I loved this show. I'm fan wanking that Elizabeth falls back in love with Phillip now that she's "back home." I want Stan to be happy. I want Oleg out of prison and at my house. And I don't give a fuck about anyone else. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 37 minutes ago, Oosala said: I'm fan wanking that Elizabeth falls back in love with Phillip now that she's "back home." I want Stan to be happy. I want Oleg out of prison and at my house. And I don't give a fuck about anyone else. I think the show made clear that Elizabeth didn't need to fall back in love with him--she was still in love with him. After Harvest she was openly showing it more, then she was angry at him for not telling her about Oleg, but she listened to him, she grabbed the wedding rings. She was even the one in the last scene who tried to imagine what their lives would have been like in Russia and had to imagine them meeting each other on a bus. 7 Link to comment
Clanstarling June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Oosala said: I remember before this show started, I was fascinated by the premise. After watching the premiere, I said to my son, "I don't know if I can watch this show. I'm cheering for the bad guys." And sometimes I didn't fully understand what I'd just watched (subtitles!) and I had to jump onto the Forums to find out what I'd just watched. I loved this show. I'm fan wanking that Elizabeth falls back in love with Phillip now that she's "back home." I want Stan to be happy. I want Oleg out of prison and at my house. And I don't give a fuck about anyone else. And that was what hooked me from the start. It fascinated me that I could be on their side at all. Also, the different perspective when Reagan was shot. It was such an understandable perspective, and yet totally different from ours (I will admit to pulling out the constitution and checking things out after Haig made his speech, though). 3 Link to comment
Umbelina June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, companionenvy said: But even in real life -- so, not granting the show even a modicum of artistic license -- law enforcement doesn't always get suspects to crack. The first case that comes to mind is that of Katherine Russell Tsarnaev, the wife of the older of the two Boston Marathon Bombers. From what I've read on the case, it is almost certain that she knew of her husband's plans. Most damningly, investigators found google searches on her personal computer for "what are the rewards for the wife of a shahid (martyr)," as well as reading material that included an Al Qaeda magazine. This was not a sophisticated operative with formal training; she was a 24 year old from suburban Rhode Island. She also had a young child, which I'm sure the FBI took advantage of in questioning her, painting the possibility of never seeing her daughter again. But apparently, she never broke, and they never managed to charge her with anything. And that was after many hours worth of meetings with authorities. I'll grant that Katherine Russell, whose family was fairly well-off, probably had access to a better lawyer than Paige is likely to, and that it is quite possible she didn't actually do anything substantial to further the plot, whereas Paige was actively participating on missions. But Paige also doesn't have to claim total innocence for the interpretation of the ending where Paige and Stan are going to avoid major trouble to work. All she has to do is not talk about the confrontation with Stan and hold enough about her own role back that a deal in which she avoids prison stays on the table. And I'm not convinced that she couldn't get such a deal even if she were totally honest about her role, so really, the only thing she absolutely has to keep to herself is the garage confrontation that no one has reason to suspect ever happened. Even if we think that Paige herself is such a moron (and she may be) that she's about to turn herself into authorities and start confessing without bothering to try for a deal, if she were to do that, her likeliest starting point would be turning herself into Stan, who is going to be able to tell her (for his own interest and hers) that she needs to not say anything until she gets a lawyer. Even the most inept public defender is going to be able to counsel her to hold back until she gets some assurances of immunity or at least clemency. It's Paige. She's twenty years old, and a very naive twenty year old at that. Her current state of mind is "shattered." She's lost her parents, who pay for her school and apartment. Her parents' house will be gone. She has NOTHING. The show has pointed out repeatedly that she's not only terrible under pressure (sailor's name tag anyone?) but also that she "CAN'T LIE" and that she's "NOT A LIAR!!!!" She doesn't even have a roof over her head once her rent runs out. She's never even had a job. It's the FBI, top domestic cops, furthermore, the CIA is going to want to question her as well, or at least submit questions. There is not a chance in hell she doesn't talk. Any decent lawyer would cut her an immunity deal, and that would only be offered if she was completely forthcoming about EVERYTHING. She'd be scared shitless, and even if she did try, for example, to keep Stan's name out of it? During the 200th "let's go over what happened when your parents came to pick you up again" she would slip. They would know it. She'd be facing jail for accessory to murder and for treason. LIFE in prison. She wouldn't be able to afford an attorney. She would get a public defender who would, wisely, tell her to take the immunity deal and spill her guts, to not hold anything back, or she could lose immunity. What's more? Stan knows this. That's why Stan WILL confess first, that, and he has to warn them about Renee. Anything else is simply illogical. 2 hours ago, Clanstarling said: And that was what hooked me from the start. It fascinated me that I could be on their side at all. Also, the different perspective when Reagan was shot. It was such an understandable perspective, and yet totally different from ours (I will admit to pulling out the constitution and checking things out after Haig made his speech, though). Damn that was such a good episode! On every single level it worked so well. The USSR, familiar with Coups and Revolutions would of course suspect that. The USA, barely 200 years after their own revolution? Would not, it thinks it's immune to such things. That said, aging myself, I was appalled and frightened by Haig when that happened as well. Edited June 15, 2018 by Umbelina thier not there typo Link to comment
sistermagpie June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, companionenvy said: I'll grant that Katherine Russell, whose family was fairly well-off, probably had access to a better lawyer than Paige is likely to, and that it is quite possible she didn't actually do anything substantial to further the plot, whereas Paige was actively participating on missions. I would say other factors besides those is that it seems like Katherine Russell was preparing more realistically for what was going on. Where as Paige until that very evening still didn't seem to have a realistic handle on the ramifications of a lot of obvious things--and this while she was actively participating in serious crimes. Plus, one of the main things about her character that distinguished her from parents was her not wanting to lie. Her actions in START often reflect that--she's just yelled at her mother about lying, she confesses to Stan without needing to say anything (even confesses to her parents crimes without needing to say anything), she can't talk to Henry on the phone and act normally and she returns to DC having ditched her disguise. So it does seem like a screaming switch of gears to imagine that her mind is now focused on coming up with a solid version of her life for the past several years (and the past few hours) that she's ready to stick to the way I can imagine KR doing. Elizabeth, like Paige, prefers to truth but she was convinced enough of the truth of her Cause that lying for it became like truth. Paige at this point doesn't really seem to have anything to draw strength from *except* her truth and wanting to not lie and be herself. She's been dishonest with others and herself for too long, it seems to me, and wasn't even good at it. It wasn't just even that she had trouble not blurting out the truth like she did in the garage, but she also never seemed to get the hang of putting herself in the place of the other person and saying what the other person needs to hear to get the result she wants. I don't think she'd out Stan out of the blue as part of her initial statement but if there was any situation where she'd have to really lie about it I don't know if she'd be able to do it. If Stan was in the room she'd probably keep looking at him. Now that Paige has admitted that she should have known her mother's work was a lot worse than she was imagining, it would be even harder to lie about it. Edited June 15, 2018 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Clanstarling June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Damn that was such a good episode! On every single level it worked so well. The USSR, familiar with Coups and Revolutions would of course suspect that. The USA, barely 200 years after there own revolution? Would not, it thinks it's immune to such things. That said, aging myself, I was appalled and frightened by Haig when that happened as well. To be fair to Haig (excuse me while I vomit a little), I was unemployed at the time, so I was glued to the live coverage. As the day progressed, the news reduced his statement to the "sound bite" we're all familiar with. But it was a part of a larger discussion where he also stated that he was in constant contact with the Vice President, the implication being that he was "in charge" with handling things locally until the VP got there. It was a weird enough phrasing to make me look up the line of succession, but I wasn't frightened. Though it was the first time I'd ever checked the constitution for the rules for a current situation. Actually, I'm not even sure why I had a copy. Edited June 15, 2018 by Clanstarling 2 Link to comment
Umbelina June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, Clanstarling said: To be fair to Haig (excuse me while I vomit a little), I was unemployed at the time, so I was glued to the live coverage. As the day progressed, the news reduced his statement to the "sound bite" we're all familiar with. But it was a part of a larger discussion where he also stated that he was in constant contact with the Vice President, the implication being that he was "in charge" with handling things locally until the VP got there. It was a weird enough phrasing to make me look up the line of succession, but I wasn't frightened. Though it was the first time I'd ever checked the constitution for the rules for a current situation. Actually, I'm not even sure why I had a copy. I hate my "there" instead of "their" typo, but back to the topic at hand, I WAS frightened, not of a Coup, but that someone as highly placed as Haig didn't know the line of succession, and WORSE, that the nutcase was in charge at all, even if it was temporary. I learned the line of succession in third grade. It did feel like chaos to me. Link to comment
Clanstarling June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 13 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I hate my "there" instead of "their" typo, but back to the topic at hand, I WAS frightened, not of a Coup, but that someone as highly placed as Haig didn't know the line of succession, and WORSE, that the nutcase was in charge at all, even if it was temporary. I learned the line of succession in third grade. It did feel like chaos to me. I never even noticed - and I usually have an eagle eye for that. I learned the line of succession as well, but didn't retain it past the Speaker (I think). So I double checked. As for nutcase, well, at the time, I thought we already had one in charge, so that was nothing new. ;) It was chaotic, indeed. I was remarkably calm, given that at the time I had a panic disorder that was often triggered by political unrest. 1 Link to comment
Dowel Jones June 15, 2018 Share June 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: During the 200th "let's go over what happened when your parents came to pick you up again" she would slip. They would know it. She'd be facing jail for accessory to murder and for treason. I would love to see the faces of everyone in the interrogation room when Paige blurts out something like "Yes, I lied when I told Stan that I had a stomachache and was going home with my parents." To which Aderholt replies "Wait, what? You told Stan this, when?" "In the garage, when he confronted us." "Stan confronted you in the garage?" Awkward silence, followed by sound of anvils hitting the floor... 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Dowel Jones said: I would love to see the faces of everyone in the interrogation room when Paige blurts out something like "Yes, I lied when I told Stan that I had a stomachache and was going home with my parents." To which Aderholt replies "Wait, what? You told Stan this, when?" "In the garage, when he confronted us." "Stan confronted you in the garage?" Awkward silence, followed by sound of anvils hitting the floor... It just occurs to me that Paige really does have every reason to not understand the seriousness of this stuff. Her parents told her not to tell anyone who they were. She told Pastor Tim. And Pastor Tim kept quiet. Then Stan the FBI agent confronts them in the garage. He's discovered they're KGB! And he lets them go. Why wouldn't she just tell on all of them now and expect it to be okay. Don't worry, Elizabeth's not here to yell at you! (Although I guess it might take a while to really believe that they weren't going to come running back after her.) 1 Link to comment
Milburn Stone June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Why wouldn't she just tell on all of them now and expect it to be okay. Don't worry, Elizabeth's not here to yell at you! (Although I guess it might take a while to really believe that they weren't going to come running back after her.) Especially because she doesn't know what the FBI knows and doesn't know. If she wants their mercy, and she thinks they might already know about the garage scene (because of getting it out of Stan), she'll realize that if she tells a story that omits the garage scene, she's toast. So she's definitely gonna tell. Poor Stan. Edited June 16, 2018 by Milburn Stone 2 Link to comment
Umbelina June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 Yeah, everybody else is quite probably fucked. Stan is major-royally-quadruple fucked. Link to comment
companionenvy June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 Paige is naive and, until the finale, in willful denial. She's not intellectually challenged, even if the writers sometimes stretched credibility in exactly how naive they made her. Plus the finale suggests that she's taken a leap forward in terms of maturity. In other words, I don't think she is so stupid that she believes she can just tell the FBI what happened and everything is going to be OK. I do think she's going to wind up talking, and telling pretty much everything she knows about Philip and Elizabeth's operation. She'll do this both to get a deal, and because she will find it therapeutic to confess and start being honest. I do not think she's going to feel she has to turn on Stan for the sake of morality, and I think, even if she hasn't already talked to Stan before being questioned, it should be pretty clear to her that the FBI doesn't know about the garage. I used the example of Katherine Tsarnaev as just one case I could recall in which an untrained person evidently managed to avoid implicating herself after what had to be extremely intense questioning. I know that the cases are not entirely parallel. But it does argue against the idea that the FBI has the quasi-magical ability to get people to confess to anything and everything, including things they haven't even been asked. Paige is a crappy liar, but it really doesn't seem to be asking so much to expect her to avoid blurting out Stan's name. "My parents came to pick me up at my apartment. They explained to me what was going on. We drove away." That doesn't require her to be an expert liar, or even as good a one as Katherine Russell, a 24 year old brainwashed jihadi wife who was apparently able to deny everything under pressure. It just requires her to be marginally less stupid than she has been at her few worst moments in the series - and judging by the finale, that's not hard to believe. The show had better ways to suggested that Stan was totally fucked, if it had wanted to do so. Instead, it took pains to establish that Stan had successfully lied to Aderholt, and was poised to fulfill his commitment to Henry. His marriage was in jeopardy, not his freedom. Paige returning may complicate things, but the idea that she's going to blow the whistle on Stan is by no means a necessary extrapolation. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: Paige is naive and, until the finale, in willful denial. She's not intellectually challenged, even if the writers sometimes stretched credibility in exactly how naive they made her. Plus the finale suggests that she's taken a leap forward in terms of maturity. On the contrary, the writers tried for YEARS to shove it down our throats that Paige was intelligent, wise beyond her years, and even that "Paige has a Russian Soul" which would imply an emotional and deep knowledge of so many things. Honestly, does anything in this scream "PAIGE!" to you? https://understandrussia.com/russian-soul/ ' What happened is, the actress simply couldn't pull that off. For once we didn't have a precocious wise-beyong-her-years young teen/adult playing a character. We really had a straight up TEEN (and not just in years) playing one. I do agree that FINALLY, in this last season, the writers adapted to Paige simply being an incredibly incurious, immature kid, so she bought the General's "suicide" and didn't even bother reading papers about crimes she was involved in committing. (warehouse, murdered sailor, the Summit, etc.) The finale to me for Paige, getting off the train, could (yet again) imply anything, the writers left it up to us, they didn't bother saying what they intended it to mean. I'll go further than that, it didn't mean anything to them, because they didn't bother. It was a great visual, and allowed Elizabeth and Philip to show their pain, because those actors could and did nail that scene. Beyond that? The writers didn't give a shit. So one person will see one thing, and another something else when watching it. A few examples: Paige was horrified at going to Russia throughout the series, and in the end, simply didn't want to go. Paige was worried about Henry, knew what a shock it would be, wanted to be there for him. Paige finally realized that she was simply following her latest cult leader, grew up a bit, and STOPPED. Several other possibilities here as well. 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: In other words, I don't think she is so stupid that she believes she can just tell the FBI what happened and everything is going to be OK. She has no clue. Zip. None. She will be putty in the FBI hands. If she's too stupid to ask for a public defender, she may not even get the immunity deal. Stan MAY be able to talk to her and advise that, or the FBI may keep Stan far, far away from her, if they start acting like the FBI that is. This will be out of the hands of the local office, HQ will be in on this one, BIG TIME. 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: I do think she's going to wind up talking, and telling pretty much everything she knows about Philip and Elizabeth's operation. She'll do this both to get a deal, and because she will find it therapeutic to confess and start being honest. I do not think she's going to feel she has to turn on Stan for the sake of morality, and I think, even if she hasn't already talked to Stan before being questioned, it should be pretty clear to her that the FBI doesn't know about the garage. No matter what else does happen? Paige WILL talk. I agree that it could be partly just Paige needing to spill her guts because she's emotionally upset, and I definitely agree she's finally been written as too stupid to realize just how serious the legal trouble she's in is. TREASON. Accessory to at least 4 murders. (We don't know how many other things she's been involved with in the past 3 years, probably tons.) 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: The show had better ways to suggested that Stan was totally fucked, if it had wanted to do so. Instead, it took pains to establish that Stan had successfully lied to Aderholt, and was poised to fulfill his commitment to Henry. His marriage was in jeopardy, not his freedom. Paige returning may complicate things, but the idea that she's going to blow the whistle on Stan is by no means a necessary extrapolation. The "show" didn't show us shit about their futures. Simple LOGIC stays Stan is well and truly, completely, irrevocably fucked. This is a major big fucking deal. It's out of Aderholt's hands now. The heaviest hitters in the FBI, CIA, State Department, as well as Senate and Congressional committees will be involved, up to and including the POTUS. Oh, and as far as Stan telling Aderholt that he suspected them? Believe me when I say, that is a very "spy" thing to do, in a "possibly cover my ass" way, if Stan was working for the KGB. They will, at the very least, CONSIDER that when dealing with Stan. If he knew they were blown? His KGB handlers would want to keep Stan in play if possible, working for them. For the FBI, CIA, and all the rest not to consider that possibility? Would be ludicrous. They will be looking at Nina AND Oleg all over again, and the possibility Stan turned double agent during those operations. There will be a paper trail of Gaad wanting him fired, etc. The late eighties were full of traitors, 1985 is still called "The Year of the Spy" for a reason. Stan will be under a microscope, his house will be searched from top to bottom, phone tapped, he'd be followed, he's so fucked. https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/year-of-the-spy-1985 Remember Walter Taffet? Think Walter Taffet on steroids, think dozens of Walter Taffets swarming over this case, because that's what Stan will be facing, what Henry, Paige, and Stan will be facing. I already detailed what WILL happen with Stan, so I won't repeat all of that. He was already nearly charged with treason, he already blackmailed the USA about Oleg. He's done. Finished. Aside from all of that, I never believed Stan was either disloyal OR stupid. Disloyal would be if he allowed Renee anywhere near the FBI. Stupid would be if he, even for a brief moment, thought Paige would be able to lie given the sustained and expert grilling she will undergo. He has to confess, it's his only hope of staying out of prison. He would KNOW that. Edited June 16, 2018 by Umbelina added shit Link to comment
sistermagpie June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: In other words, I don't think she is so stupid that she believes she can just tell the FBI what happened and everything is going to be OK. Just to clarify, my view of Paige's naiveté regarding the FBI, however much it went, would be not just about her not having a detailed idea about how the law or the FBI would work, but also about her experience logically giving her a view of the world that in spite of all the stresses in it, has always turned out better than it realistically would. She's never actually faced anyone who responded to her parents being spies by blowing everything up so I think it actually would be hard for her to really imagine being thrown to the wolves completely. Twice she's seen people put the personal well-being of the Jennings as people above the law in this case and I don't see any reason she'd have lost that in the finale. She's been very protected. She did finally stop believing that spying was a victimless crime, she connected Jackson to Elizabeth. She presumably believed Stan that people died. But I honestly don't get the impression that she thinks she's done anything wrong, still. That is, I think there's still plenty of things that would come out of nowhere for her based on her experience. None of which means that she'd have to immediately tell everyone that they ran into Stan on their way out of the country. That would be a pretty straightforward thing she could omit from the story. Her parents, after all, *did* come to her apartment, to the garage, and then on to the woods and the train. She doesn't have to come up with another story for that. It's quite possible that she'd give some signs that she's covering something up like she did back when Stan was just noticing that something wasn't right when she was in high school, but that could be related to the crimes she committed rather than Stan. She might also not tell them that she told her pastor the truth, but realistically the Tims would be questioned and would talk themselves. They'd be in trouble and I believe Paige would be surprised at that. 39 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Paige was horrified at going to Russia throughout the series, and in the end, simply didn't want to go. Paige was worried about Henry, knew what a shock it would be, wanted to be there for him. Paige finally realized that she was simply following her latest cult leader, grew up a bit, and STOPPED. Or even that she was angry at her parents, I guess. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: 49 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Paige was horrified at going to Russia throughout the series, and in the end, simply didn't want to go. Paige was worried about Henry, knew what a shock it would be, wanted to be there for him. Paige finally realized that she was simply following her latest cult leader, grew up a bit, and STOPPED. Or even that she was angry at her parents, I guess. Yes, as I said, any number of reasons, and that's another good one. Her period could have just started and she's out of tampons. She's become an alcoholic and needed that vodka at Claudia's, she, on reflection, decided she really loved that congressional intern she's banging, she wanted to catch the two hour special of Dallas It's Paige. Anything is possible, maybe she prayed and realized she's strayed from Christ which caused all of this, and wants to return to the Church, something that would not be allowed in the USSR. Maybe she wanted to see Sam and Diane get married? Edited June 16, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
SusanSunflower June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 More unbelievable, she absolutely must never tell Henry what Stan did .... ever ... Personally, I don't think it's plausible that Stan the professional would not have snapped after a few minutes of golden-tongue Phillip and realized he was -- like Odysseus -- being lulled by the Sirens of Denial. Phillip would have been dead or on his knees assuming the position (or both) and for his part, Phillip certainly knew that Elizabeth would blow away Stan in a heartbeat ... andn then she and Paige would escape. Phillip would have successfully played decoy/martyr. R.I.P. Link to comment
Umbelina June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 Speaking of Paige... WHY, if Paige is so intelligent and committed to world peace did she never ONCE ask Elizabeth "WHY IN THE HELL ARE WE WORKING AGAINST NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT MOM? Isn't that what you said you wanted, way back when you told me about your goals and dreams as a KGB officer?" Link to comment
companionenvy June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 55 minutes ago, Umbelina said: The finale to me for Paige, getting off the train, could (yet again) imply anything, the writers left it up to us, they didn't bother saying what they intended it to mean. I'll go further than that, it didn't mean anything to them, because they didn't bother. It was a great visual, and allowed Elizabeth and Philip to show their pain, because those actors could and did nail that scene. Beyond that? The writers didn't give a shit. So one person will see one thing, and another something else when watching it. A few examples: Paige was horrified at going to Russia throughout the series, and in the end, simply didn't want to go. Paige was worried about Henry, knew what a shock it would be, wanted to be there for him. Paige finally realized that she was simply following her latest cult leader, grew up a bit, and STOPPED. Several other possibilities here as well. I can see the annoyance at the show leaving Paige's (and, arguably, everyone else's) fate up in the air, but is it really a problem that a character motivation might remain ambiguous? That's generally considered to be a characteristic of some of the best writing, not a sign of not giving a shit. Like, people have written books about why exactly Ahab cares so much about that damned whale, The possibilities you've listed all make sense, and all may play a part in her reasoning. In both of the last two episodes, we see Paige finally realizing that her parents have done really terrible things. We know that she never saw going to Russia as a real possibility. She is horrified at the thought of leaving Henry, and some of the questions she asked about him seem to be projections of anxiety about herself. Just the fact that her parents are willing to leave Henry -- and presumably would have been willing to leave her had circumstances been different -- shakes her deeply. So while it isn't clear what exactly her plan is in going back to DC - go to Stan as a prelude to turning herself in? make a run for it? fatalistically sit in Claudia's empty apartment until the feds catch up to her? -- the combination of factors that might have motivated that choice seem sufficiently well established to me. 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, companionenvy said: I can see the annoyance at the show leaving Paige's (and, arguably, everyone else's) fate up in the air, but is it really a problem that a character motivation might remain ambiguous? That's generally considered to be a characteristic of some of the best writing, not a sign of not giving a shit. Like, people have written books about why exactly Ahab cares so much about that damned whale, The main thing I take away from Paige getting off the train is that there are several motivations that are plausible to me, but what's important is that I totally bought that she did it even though I was surprised and maybe more important, it felt like exactly the right thing for the story. For myself I tend to think she didn't even have much of a plan--an idea somewhat supported by our last view of her sitting in the empty apartment and having a drink alone. It's very realistic sometimes for a person to know absolutely what they *can't* do and aren't going to do without knowing the alternative. I can imagine her getting off the train feeling more like she's acting in a dream than making a decisive step. Like she knows this is what she must do and she's really doing it even though she has no idea what awaits her. I guess it's one of those EST moments of groping your way forward in the dark (I think it applies better to Paige in this moment than Stan in his, even). Philip is in some way leading the way in that the last season. He makes a few false decisions where he's doing what he thinks he's supposed to do or is listening to someone else--like when he fires Stavos, imo, or when he starts to go along with the Kimmy plan. But then he gets back on track and knows what's right for him. He'll be there for Elizabeth even if it kills him, but he has to be there for *her* and not her handlers by proxy. He knows he wants to help Oleg. But he also knows he wants to be honest with Elizabeth. He's more solid than he's been for years. Oh, and he knows they can't take Henry. I think that decision is very much like Paige on the train. He can't know what'll happen to Henry but he knows that when he imagines taking him to Russia it's a dead end. He can't do that and that's enough to know. It's just wrong. Henry can't be himself there. I think he's more ready to give Paige up too, because of that. The main reason he didn't consider it before was because of what she'd done to herself by getting involved with spying and being so committed to becoming Elizabeth. (Elizabeth, of course, had her own EST choice when she chose to stop the assassination.) And the more I think about it the more right I think this moment for Paige is, no matter what falls down on her head. Her following her parents to Russia would, imo, have been bad not only for her, probably turning her into some always-dependent half-person, but for them as well because they'd be forever be trying to be who she needed instead of exploring their true selves at last, which they are with each other. 2 Link to comment
SusanSunflower June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 (edited) Six years time in real life, 9 years in show time ... Paige is arguably more enigmatic, or perhaps just more poorly drawn (the writers having had to change course when Paige as Elizabeth mini-me became a no.can.do). What's her favorite book? Did she ever want a pet? Who's her favorite musician? Did she really choose that bedroom wallpaper all by herself? I have thought that they did intend (almost until the last moment) for Paige to "rise to the occasion", emerge from the garage, Stan dead, to be left behind in America as a bad-ass next-generation KGB agent ... with Henry none-the-wiser and Claudia still managing her assignments. Edited June 16, 2018 by SusanSunflower Link to comment
sistermagpie June 16, 2018 Share June 16, 2018 1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said: Six years time in real life, 9 years in show time ... Paige is arguably more enigmatic, or perhaps just more poorly drawn (the writers having had to change course when Paige as Elizabeth mini-me became a no.can.do). What's her favorite book? Did she ever want a pet? Who's her favorite musician? Did she really choose that bedroom wallpaper all by herself? I think it's 6 years both ways. The show went from 1981-1987. The timeline caught up to the actress more with the time jump. 2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said: I have thought that they did intend (almost until the last moment for Paige to "rise to the occasion" and be left behind in America as a bad-ass next-generation KGB agent ... with Henry none-the-wiser and Claudia still managing her assignments. That definitely seemed to be the tease in the PR because it sounded cool but I think it was just for that. Even when they were touting her as intelligent and curious they probably in their minds were thinking about her being curious about her parents and ultimately smart enough to connect Jackson to Elizabeth. It is funny, though, that I was just watching a scene in the pilot recently and Philip says he's got a meeting with a client and Paige immediately says, "Why are you meeting him so late?" They totally wanted her to be the sharp one straight off, and yet buying stuff like the General's "suicide" in the last season. 1 Link to comment
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