S06.E10: START

[Umbelina]

Oleg, as the show pointed out, was charged with espionage.  He had no diplomatic cover.  It's a serious charge, and it's also true.

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

No, that's pretty normal, especially since they're not used to speak in Russian at all. 

Yes, yes he does, and it's amazing. I'm in awe of that scene. I love how Stan is trying to see Russian spies and Philip is trying to make him see the Jennings. I think even his mention of EST is a way to do that. Like, "see, I'm still old, good Philip with my dumb ideas about EST"

I don't know if the FBI could find and identify Paige's hair in one of the KGB cars, but imo, there's no way to prove she was really there. I mean, she was Philip and Elizabeth's daughter, she saw them regularly and it's logical to assume there was some hugging involved at some point. And sometimes you hug someone and you get a hair from them on your shoulder or your shirt. If she doesn't confess, what other proof do they have against her?

Honest question, what do they have against Oleg? He wasn't spying on the Americans. He didn't commit treason. So he's guilty of meeting a Russian spy, but what kind of crime is that? 

Good question.  Maybe, it's not a crime. Here's a link about it.  Not sure if the law was the same then, but, it looks like it has to be with some intent or purpose to harm America, which, Oleg did not do.

Quote

 

Information transmitted is classified government information or relates to national defense ; and

The accused acted with the intent or reason to believe the information will harm the United States or help a foreign nation (not necessarily an "enemy" of the United States); and

There was a willful communication, transfer, or receipt of the information; or

There was an overt act in furtherance of a conspiracy to commit espionage.

 

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/espionage.html

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, lazylou said:

I have been wondering about how Paige and Henry will get by financially.  

Henry had gotten himself covered for all of high school and the summer already--I think that was a big reason for that. He's not a child in search of a home. If he can get a full scholarship to college he'll be great. If not he can work to earn the money himself. Stan will probably be happy to help him out too.

Paige was in more trouble but she could also get a job. She never seems to have had one before but her father worked as a kid.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

What would she be going to prison for? There’s no evidence we’ve seen that the FBI has anything on Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings, much less anything that would implicate their daughter.  

You have to have proof to convict in the US.   Unless P&E kept records of their activities at the house or agency, it sure seems like a hard case to make.  And even if they make it against P&E, making an actual legal case against Paige seems even more daunting.  

We have the priest giving a positive id of Phil and Liz (really dumb writing not to have the priest do a photo id) as KGB. If people want to assume that no physical evidence of Paige being in KGB cars and KGB safehouses exists,  after several years of Paige being in them, or that the FBI never finds those cars and safehouses, despite now having a mechanism of tracking them down, fine. I disagree. 

Again, the FBI is really daunting in a matter like  this, when its reputation is at stake. In real life, they literally drove an American government scientist to suicide who it suspected, with far less evidence, was involved in the anthrax poisonings 17 years ago. He was completely innocent.

20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

No, that's pretty normal, especially since they're not used to speak in Russian at all. 

Yes, yes he does, and it's amazing. I'm in awe of that scene. I love how Stan is trying to see Russian spies and Philip is trying to make him see the Jennings. I think even his mention of EST is a way to do that. Like, "see, I'm still old, good Philip with my dumb ideas about EST"

I don't know if the FBI could find and identify Paige's hair in one of the KGB cars, but imo, there's no way to prove she was really there. I mean, she was Philip and Elizabeth's daughter, she saw them regularly and it's logical to assume there was some hugging involved at some point. And sometimes you hug someone and you get a hair from them on your shoulder or your shirt. If she doesn't confess, what other proof do they have against her?

Honest question, what do they have against Oleg? He wasn't spying on the Americans. He didn't commit treason. So he's guilty of meeting a Russian spy, but what kind of crime is that? 

https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/general-fara-frequently-asked-questions#8

47 minutes ago, AMDG said:

A few random thoughts:

Are Paige and Henry the Americans that are referred to in the title.

Just because they don’t interact much I would not assume that Paige and Henry were not close. There are no other known relatives and that would have spent a lot of time with just each other when they were younger and their parents were out being spies.

Stan’s confrontation in the garage was as well thought out as confronting you girlfriend with the guy she is cheating on you with. It seemed like the right thing to do when you did it but hindsight......  I would think that Stan let them go not only for Henry, to get the coup message to Moscow and because of friendship, but also because there was no way he could physically subdue them and arrest them and since he did not have a radio there wasn’t no way to call backup.

For Oleg to go to prison for a long time he would have Tom be convicted of a crime. What crime did he commit? Passing notes about a Soviet coup attempt would not Ben illegal.

 

From link above....

18 U.S.C. § 951 provides criminal penalties for anyone, other than a diplomat, to operate as an agent of a foreign government without first notifying the Attorney General, unless the agent is engaged in legal commercial transaction. This statute is aimed at foreign government controlled agents engaged in non-political activities.

Also, 18 U.S.C. § 2386 requires registration by certain organizations which engage in political activity, civilian military activity, is under foreign control, or has as its purpose the overthrow the government by force.

Finally, 50 U.S.C. § 851, requires registration of persons who have knowledge of or have received instruction or assignment in espionage, counterespionage or sabotage service or tactics of a foreign country or political party

Edited May 31, 2018 by Bannon

[anonymiss]

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I didn't get a good look of the photos on the table before Aderholt.  I read here that they were shown to Father Andrea but, I never actually saw it.  At what point? I'm going to rewatch it again today.  You say that in the photos he was wearing sunglasses? If so, then that photo is from somewhere else and not when he was with Father Andrea, right?

I can't find a quality screengrab, but it happens at the 8:34 mark.

Edited May 31, 2018 by anonymiss

[dubbel zout]

40 minutes ago, Marianna said:

So not clear why her existence as a spy had to be kept secret from P and E, though. 

Compartmentalization. Stan wasn't a target of Philip and Elizabeth's, at least not directly, so there was no reason they had to know if he was someone else's target. The fewer fellow spies they know of, the fewer names they could possible spill.

Philip wasn't positive Renee was a spy, but there were enough signs to let Stan know it was possible.

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige was in more trouble but she could also get a job. She never seems to have had one before but her father worked as a kid.

If Paige is still in college, she can get a work/study position or something like that. If not, she could get a minimum-wage job somewhere. 

7 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

the image is ever-so-coincidentally blacked out at his eyes.

Wasn't Philip wearing glasses/sunglasses?

Edited May 31, 2018 by dubbel zout

[Stan39]

4 hours ago, showme said:

In America, you are usually not guilty by association, OK?

???????. Thanks, man. I needed a good laugh today. 

[Erin9]

59 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Ah, well there of course I agree.

Though that also makes me remember that in fact most of the Russian characters whose children we know lose their children because of their work. Igor's son Oleg is in the US. Oleg's son Sascha is in the USSR. Philip and Elizabeth's children are in the US. They all took a risk going to the US and wound up separated. Plus, of course, all those years ago Philip was separated from the son he never had. Even Claudia lost contact it it seems with her daughter. Ilya's parents were murdered, though he doesn't quite count.

Lots of familial tragedy, for sure.,

Though I think it’s highly possible Philip and Elizabeth will see their kids someday. Visits are possible. But I can see why they didn’t discuss that. They won’t live close by or get to be active, regular parts of their lives though. That’s done. It certainly won’t be the relationship they would have chosen. All they can do now is hope for the best for their kids and believe that they’ll remember them. 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Though I think it’s highly possible Philip and Elizabeth will see their kids someday. Visits are possible.

We know it's highly possible they'd see the kids again, but at the time, Philip and Elizabeth weren't unreasonable in thinking that was it.

[Umbelina]

I think Elizabeth, Philip, and Arkady have bigger worries.  They need to avoid being killed by a pretty strong and powerful group of Soviets who think Stalin had it right, and Gorbachev and modernizers are going to ruin everything.  Which actually, is arguably true.  Claudia and others were dedicated communists, and bolsheviks, who really believe that communism is the only way to right the wrongs of poverty and wars in the world.

They are not wrong, Gorbachev and other reformers did end communism, but that doesn't mean they will go down without a fight, or not be vengeful towards the people who helped end communism.

Oh, and no matter what?  I believe Elizabeth would detest Putin and his like, and certainly what becomes of Russia after the USSR ends.

Someone said earlier that the KGB ended.  No, it's had many names, many initials, but the KGB never ended, just changed names again, if anything, today's version is just as ruthless, and certainly as dangerous.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[ajsnaves]

In the end, I think my brother summed it up perfectly.  "Everyone lives.  No one is happy."  Which I think is the best you can expect in a situation like this.  The only person I feel bad for I the one true innocent in this all. Henry.  So we decided that he will have a long and successful hockey career.  May he score many goals on the Russian Team.

And that garage scene was everything for me.  I think I held my breath the whole time.  But it did give me my biggest laugh of the episode, maybe the whole series with Philip's "By the way, your wife may be a spy.  Not really sure.  Toodles."

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and no matter what?  I believe Elizabeth would detest Putin and his like, and certainly what becomes of Russia after the USSR ends.

I was talking about this with somebody a while back and we both could see Elizabeth bringing herself around--if she had the years to live through rather than being transported here suddenly--to supporting Putin because he's a nationalist. But now I'm not sure sure. She really broke out of her old mindset and could even handle the dissolution of the USSR better now. It'll still be a blow, but she's different now. And I think she could very believably hate Putin and all he stood for now.

[Erin9]

48 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Yes, yes he does, and it's amazing. I'm in awe of that scene. I love how Stan is trying to see Russian spies and Philip is trying to make him see the Jennings. I think even his mention of EST is a way to do that. Like, "see, I'm still old, good Philip with my dumb ideas about EST"

 

It is stunning. Philip chose to mostly be honest, but he had to decide what exactly to be honest about. What did Stan need to hear from him? What mattered?  The more I think about it, the more impressed I am with Philip. I mean to think it through that fast what Stan needed from him is really something, 

I hadn’t thought of it exactly this way, but you’re right: he needed Stan to focus on them as the Jennings, as people he knew, not just random Russian spies.

But he also needed Stan to identify with them in their capacity as spies. So Philip said- they had a job. Like Stan. That Stan moved in. So- Philip hadn’t looked to con him. On the contrary- he’d been afraid. That like Stan he was patriotic, and like Stan he burned out. He humanized himself noting he wasn’t even a good travel agent, that his fake life had been very difficult. 

He appealed to Stan as a father- a father losing his son. A kid Stan cared for and could help. 

Then- there was that last mission that could help their country and the world. They could fix it- but they needed to get home to deliver the message. Stan could get on board with that. He understands patriotism and the desire for peace. A peace the benefits his country too. 

And- very importantly- the friendship was real. The only real one Philip had in his time in America. It meant something to him too. In short- this was a loss for Philip too. Philip lied to him, but Stan isn’t the only one losing something he’d valued. 

Extraordinary. I bet Paige learned a lot about her dad. And Elizabeth probably had a new appreciation for Philip’s skills. 

[MJ Frog]

52 minutes ago, Bannon said:

We have the priest giving a positive id of Phil and Liz (really dumb writing not to have the priest do a photo id) as KGB. If people want to assume that no physical evidence of Paige being in KGB cars and KGB safehouses exists,  after several years of Paige being in them, or that the FBI never finds those cars and safehouses, despite now having a mechanism of tracking them down, fine.

As has been pointed out before, if they find physical evidence of her presence in some of those cars or safehouses, that is plenty of reason to for the FBI to be suspicious of her, but that is not nearly enough for the Justice Department to charge her. There is no case for them to make here. If she lawyers up and keeps her mouth shut, she will not be going to jail.

[Erin9]

28 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

We know it's highly possible they'd see the kids again, but at the time, Philip and Elizabeth weren't unreasonable in thinking that was it.

Agreed. It wasn’t an unreasonable concern. 

[jjj]

3 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

I don’t think that was claudia’s Apt, but a safe house.  It was pretty sparse every time the 3were there.

I never thought that was a safe house -- those are for people you need to stash to hide from the authorities, like they did with Martha.

This just seemed like Claudia's sparse apartment, like Gabriel's sparse apartment.  It was temporary lodging until she and he went home.  

[SunnyBeBe]

One point of humor for me was when Henry asked his dad if he had been drinking.  This was due to the emotional things that P was saying to him in the phone call.  P plays along, saying that he had some wine at dinner.  Then more humor when Henry tells his dad that maybe, his mom should do the driving. lol

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, jjj said:

I never thought that was a safe house -- those are for people you need to stash to hide from the authorities, like they did with Martha.

This just seemed like Claudia's sparse apartment, like Gabriel's sparse apartment.  It was temporary lodging until she and he went home.  

Safe Houses are for more than that.  Roaming handler's like Claudia use them as well.  Remember how quickly Gabe was able to relocate after the bio-poisoning incident.  Handlers like Gabe and Claudia don't stay in one place.  They are not embedded spies posing as Americans.  They are Soviet Citizens and KGB running their Officers.  Each place had plenty to get by on, but not a single personal touch.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But he also needed Stan to identify with them in their capacity as spies. So Philip said- they had a job. Like Stan. That Stan moved in. So- Philip hadn’t looked to con him. On the contrary- he’d been afraid. That like Stan he was patriotic, and like Stan he burned out. He humanized himself noting he wasn’t even a good travel agent, that his fake life had been very difficult. 

 

In their friendship Philip has always been the beta to Stan's alpha. He was the "wimp" about Sandra when Stan wanted him to be an asshole. He knows Stan has to be the tough guy.

He's even smart enough when he brings up the coup to say that "she" (Elizabeth) figured it out. She didn't figure it out. He told her about it and then she got the details from Claudia. But he instinctively knew to paint himself as the ineffective one which always worked for him. His life was the joke. His life was shitty. Not Stan's.

Also I can't remember if I mentioned this but how great was it to have Philip and Elizabeth in the car with Arkady? It just made me remember how he's *always* been this unknown protector to them. It was Arkady who was determined to get Philip out in The Deal. Arkady didn't like the way they'd seemed to turn on Claudia when she was trying to protect them, but then Arkady who came up with the plan with the cars that saved them in The Colonel. He remembered "meeting" Philip when Philip threatened him over Paige, but appreciated that about him. He's the same way with Oleg and was protective of Nina too. When he showed up to greet them you knew they were safe because Arkady is such a mensch. It was nice that they finally really met him and could maybe get to know him.

And also just great to hear Philip ask him to pull over calling him Arkady Ivanovich. Remember when Elizabeth called the Rez about him in S1 and called him Ar-KAY-dee like Americans do? (The first time I came across that name I think I thought it was ARK-adee.

[vixenbynight]

7 hours ago, DrumJunkie said:

I think a lot of the hate for Paige is that many expected her to act like an adult.  Having two teenage daughters, I found her performance entirely believable.  Some have criticized HT acting suggesting a limited range, but teenagers expressions aren't as nuanced as an adults.  The emotional development or even the ability to articulate what they are actually feeling, much less understand it, hasn't evolved completely.  All-in-all, I found Paige an integral part of a story about a marriage and the conflicts that raising children bring.

I agree. I have loved Taylor's performance as the eldest child of Elizabeth and Philip. I loved that Paige always questioned things, because she could sense that something was just "off" about her family and the life that she and her brother were raised in, as children of spies. She was at the right age, in which young and impressionable teens DO start to see their parents as human beings and not just Mom and Dad. She wanted to try and understand them. Philip and Elizabeth wanted to try and get closer to Paige and the only way that they initially thought it could happen, was by finally telling the truth. 

[Erin9]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

One point of humor for me was when Henry asked his dad if he had been drinking.  This was due to the emotional things that P was saying to him in the phone call.  P plays along, saying that he had some wine at dinner.  Then more humor when Henry tells his dad that maybe, his mom should do the driving. lol

Yeah. It was the only way Henry could reconcile this very oddly emotional speech from his dad: He’d been drinking and gotten sentimental. It was both funny that was where his mind went and so very sad. No where in his mind could he begin to comprehend that his dad was trying to say good bye, to say what he needed to say and what he thought Henry needed to hear from him as a parent with very little time. 

Another thing: Henry was over his parents leaving him to work on thanksgiving. No grudge was being held. 

[Ellaria]

There really isn't an answer to this question but I thought that I would throw this out for consideration. I need a diversion from the ongoing discussion on whether or not Stan is an idiot. Anyway...

P&E had already decided to leave Henry behind before they entered the garage. They had no reason to expect that Stan would show up and agree to take care of Henry. What did they think would happen to him? Without Stan's protection/involvement, Henry's exposure to the FBI would be rather harsh and unyielding even thought he was basically an innocent.

[SunnyBeBe]

I guess they thought that Stan would step up anyway or they could send a note, after they were out of harms way asking him to be there for Henry.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

As has been pointed out before, if they find physical evidence of her presence in some of those cars or safehouses, that is plenty of reason to for the FBI to be suspicious of her, but that is not nearly enough for the Justice Department to charge her. There is no case for them to make here. If she lawyers up and keeps her mouth shut, she will not be going to jail.

As has been pointed out before, the FBI doesn't need to charge you with a crime to ruin your life. If they decide to ruin Henry's life as well, I could see them getting her to plead guilty, sentence contingent on what she has to trade.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Yeah. It was the only way Henry could reconcile this very oddly emotional speech from his dad: He’d been drinking and gotten sentimental. It was both funny that was where his mind went and so very sad. No where in his mind could he begin to comprehend that his dad was trying to say good bye, to say what he needed to say and what he thought Henry needed to hear from him as a parent with very little time. 

Another thing: Henry was over his parents leaving him to work on thanksgiving. No grudge was being held. 

I loved that moment--and I thought the same thing. Henry wasn't ignoring his father or freezing him out, he was doing exactly what he was doing here, taking his father's call for granted because he really does have a life of his own. And it's a life at school, not a life at home. I was trying to imagine what he might do for Christmas since that break was coming up--did he even say something like "See you next week?" Maybe it was just that he'd talk to him the next week because they always talked. Anyway, I don't envision Henry necessarily settling into just substituting Stan's house for his own across the street.

Also note that he picked up on Elizabeth's good-bye call right away because she never called him but with Philip he was used to him being supportive and loving--if not this maudlin. He probably figured Philip had encouraged Elizabeth to talk to him.

It's another reminder that while Henry will probably on some level be able to believe his mother was a spy this whole time, he's always going to struggle with his father. How is he ever going to wrap his mind around it?

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

There really isn't an answer to this question but I thought that I would throw this out for consideration. I need a diversion from the ongoing discussion on whether or not Stan is an idiot. Anyway...

P&E had already decided to leave Henry behind before they entered the garage. They had no reason to expect that Stan would show up and agree to take care of Henry. What did they think would happen to him? Without Stan's protection/involvement, Henry's exposure to the FBI would be rather harsh and unyielding even thought he was basically an innocent.

Well, if Stan hadn't met them in the garage he might still have been the one to tell Henry what happened and would protect him. He might be colder at first if he thought Henry knew the truth but I think he'd quickly realize he didn't and then be protective. Stan would be there regardless and he didn't need much reason to be good to Henry.

[showme]

1 hour ago, Stan39 said:

???????. Thanks, man. I needed a good laugh today. 

This is why I wish there is block function on this forum. It will help to tune out the noise.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

There really isn't an answer to this question but I thought that I would throw this out for consideration. I need a diversion from the ongoing discussion on whether or not Stan is an idiot. Anyway...

P&E had already decided to leave Henry behind before they entered the garage. They had no reason to expect that Stan would show up and agree to take care of Henry. What did they think would happen to him? Without Stan's protection/involvement, Henry's exposure to the FBI would be rather harsh and unyielding even thought he was basically an innocent.

Eluzabeth's initial reaction, that Henry would be torn to pieces by the FBI, was right, and it rang false to me that Phil was so quickly able to convince her otherwise. The FBI tears the ignorant and innocent to pieces all the time, when it serves their ends, and surely Liz is aware of this.

I don't think it likely that Stan can protect him.

[vixenbynight]

6 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Through a series of sources I'm not at liberty to name, I was able to get a hold of the actual final scene, as written, which had to be cut for time purposes.  It's directly after P & E are looking out over the Moscow night skyline:

* * * *

[Slow dissolve to INTERIOR: Their modest Moscow apartment, a few weeks later.  PHILIP and ELIZABETH, speaking to each other in RUSSIAN.  PHILIP seems withdrawn.]

Elizabeth:  Look, I know you've been down...had trouble...adjusting... 

[PHILIP is silent.]

Elizabeth:  I found this.  [Hands him a flyer.  PHILIP reads it.]

Philip:  Wait...line dancing? In Moscow!!?!

[Kenny Loggins' "I'm All Right" swells on the soundtrack as we push in on PHILIP's slow spreading smile.  Cut to black.]

Thank you for bringing some hopeful fantasy joy to this thread. It makes me smile that Elizabeth would even think of trying to ease Philip's depression with line dancing. She would never, ever join in. She would stand by the bar, smoking and keeping a lookout at the nearest exits from the bar.

[SunnyBeBe]

What would have happened if Oleg and Father Andrei had said they wanted attorneys?  The Patriot Act wasn't enacted yet. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, showme said:

This is why I wish there is block function on this forum. It will help to tune out the noise.

There is.  Hover on the person's name you want to block, click "ignore" & it's simple to use and works well.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[showme]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Eluzabeth's initial reaction, that Henry would be torn to pieces by the FBI, was right, and it rang false to me that Phil was so quickly able to convince her otherwise. The FBI tears the ignorant and innocent to pieces all the time, when it serves their ends, and surely Liz is aware of this.

I don't think it likely that Stan can protect him.

Well, Philip is right in his answer as well, Henry can't provide useful information to FBI if he doesn't know anything, FBI would be quick to realize that and move on to someone else. Besides, Henry left home for boarding school when he was still a very young kid. You really think FBI would consider him a valuable source of information?

Edited May 31, 2018 by showme

[scartact]

9 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

There really isn't an answer to this question but I thought that I would throw this out for consideration. I need a diversion from the ongoing discussion on whether or not Stan is an idiot. Anyway...

P&E had already decided to leave Henry behind before they entered the garage. They had no reason to expect that Stan would show up and agree to take care of Henry. What did they think would happen to him? Without Stan's protection/involvement, Henry's exposure to the FBI would be rather harsh and unyielding even thought he was basically an innocent.

I too am also avoiding the Stan debates. Doesn't feel productive to what I believe that show to be about, but to each their own!

I guess for them to bring in Henry, I also thought of it very generally in terms of Henry would literally be alone without any family at all, except for Stan. It's another part of that call to humanity and seeing them as the Jennings that Philip aims for in that garage scene. Plus, I guess it gives one piece of clarity to Stan - his wife may be a spy, but Henry's innocent!

[showme]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

There is.  Hover on the person's name you want to block, click "ignore" & it's simple to use and works well.

Thank you! I appreciate your answer.

[Ellaria]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I guess they thought that Stan would step up anyway or they could send a note, after they were out of harms way asking him to be there for Henry.

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, if Stan hadn't met them in the garage he might still have been the one to tell Henry what happened and would protect him. He might be colder at first if he thought Henry knew the truth but I think he'd quickly realize he didn't and then be protective. Stan would be there regardless and he didn't need much reason to be good to Henry.

If we go by what we saw onscreen, neither of them ever mentioned that Stan would be there for Henry once they were gone. We, as viewers, understand that it could happen, regardless. But I'm not sure that possibility entered their minds...until Stan showed up in the garage. In other words, they didn't have a plan. They just "knew" that they had to leave him behind (which I agree with).

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Eluzabeth's initial reaction, that Henry would be torn to pieces by the FBI, was right, and it rang false to me that Phil was so quickly able to convince her otherwise. The FBI tears the ignorant and innocent to pieces all the time, when it serves their ends, and surely Liz is aware of this.

Exactly! It may have been the right move but it wasn't necessarily a benevolent move. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, showme said:

Well, Philip is right in his answer as well, Henry can't provide useful information to FBI if he doesn't know anything, FBI would be quick to realize that. Besides, Henry left home for boarding school when he was still a very young kid. You really think FBI would consider him a valuable source of information?

No, but they would see tearing Henry apart as a means to pressure Paige . They do this to innocent relatives all the time.

[vixenbynight]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I liked that there were loose ends. 

The loose ends makes sense to me. Nothing is ever always tied into a great nice shiny bow at the end. Especially this show.

[Dev F]

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Safe Houses are for more than that.  Roaming handler's like Claudia use them as well.  Remember how quickly Gabe was able to relocate after the bio-poisoning incident.  Handlers like Gabe and Claudia don't stay in one place.  They are not embedded spies posing as Americans.  They are Soviet Citizens and KGB running their Officers.  Each place had plenty to get by on, but not a single personal touch.

Yeah, Paige herself actually noticed this when her parents introduced her to Gabriel last season:

"He doesn't live there, does he?"
"No."
"There weren't any pictures anywhere."
"It's a place we can all meet safely."

And we did in fact see where one of the handlers really lived in season 2, when Larrick traced the phone system to Kate's apartment. She didn't have any photos that I could see, but the place was much more lived-in than Gabriel's or Claudia's safe house, with books and knickknacks and general clutter everywhere. Claudia probably had a place like that somewhere, where she retired to when she wasn't meeting with her officers.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dev F

[Erin9]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In their friendship Philip has always been the beta to Stan's alpha. He was the "wimp" about Sandra when Stan wanted him to be an asshole. He knows Stan has to be the tough guy.

He's even smart enough when he brings up the coup to say that "she" (Elizabeth) figured it out. She didn't figure it out. He told her about it and then she got the details from Claudia. But he instinctively knew to paint himself as the ineffective one which always worked for him. His life was the joke. His life was shitty. Not Stan's.

Also I can't remember if I mentioned this but how great was it to have Philip and Elizabeth in the car with Arkady? It just made me remember how he's *always* been this unknown protector to them. It was Arkady who was determined to get Philip out in The Deal. Arkady didn't like the way they'd seemed to turn on Claudia when she was trying to protect them, but then Arkady who came up with the plan with the cars that saved them in The Colonel. He remembered "meeting" Philip when Philip threatened him over Paige, but appreciated that about him. He's the same way with Oleg and was protective of Nina too. When he showed up to greet them you knew they were safe because Arkady is such a mensch. It was nice that they finally really met him and could maybe get to know him.

And also just great to hear Philip ask him to pull over calling him Arkady Ivanovich. Remember when Elizabeth called the Rez about him in S1 and called him Ar-KAY-dee like Americans do? (The first time I came across that name I think I thought it was ARK-adee.

Yeah. I’d wondered why he’d given so much credit to Elizabeth. That’s why. To not give himself too much credit. Wouldn’t go over well with Stan. That was a smart move. 

And true- there were aspects of his life as Philip Jennings he didn’t like. But- there were parts he loved and got joy from. It wasn’t all bad. 

On some level Stan knows that Philip is very good though. Philip didn’t tell him how long he’d been hiding and operating under their noses, but Stan knows it was a very long time. But, it was smart of Philip not to give Stan more than he needed in terms of his effectiveness as a spy. And not remind him of it. 

I love that Arkady is there at the end to shake their hands and drive them to their new old life. Yes- I definitely got the feeling they were safe when he showed up. (And so did they. They slept in the backseat looking very cozy- can’t think of the word I want to use to describe their body language in the back seat.) And- Arkady himself was safer BECAUSE they showed up. He needed them to make it home. Well done, writers with that. 

I would have loved to see the 3 of them talk. Especially Philip and Arkady, since he realized Philip was “the one” who could help them. But I’m left feeling they’ll work well together in whatever capacity. 

I’d forgotten about arkady’s help in The Deal. They’d crossed paths more than I had remembered. Arkady was always a caring, though dutiful, guy. Moreso than Gaad imo. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

If we go by what we saw onscreen, neither of them ever mentioned that Stan would be there for Henry once they were gone. We, as viewers, understand that it could happen, regardless. But I'm not sure that possibility entered their minds...until Stan showed up in the garage. In other words, they didn't have a plan. They just "knew" that they had to leave him behind (which I agree with).

Absolutely. Their own plan was just that they knew he'd be better in the US and if he had to go through FBI interrogation first, there was nothing to be done about that. They didn't have to worry about him having a parent. He's taken care of his own room and board until he's 18--he's got this year at school (if we assume Philip paid that tuition like he said he would), then Henry's got scholarships and working in the summer, also with room and board. No plan, just acceptance that the consequences of bringing him to the USSR were worse.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, Paige herself actually noticed this when her parents introduced her to Gabriel last season:

"He doesn't live there, does he?"
"No."
"There weren't any pictures anywhere."
"It's a place we can all meet safely."

And we did in fact see where one of the handlers really lived in season 2, when Larrick traced the phone system to Kate's apartment. She didn't have any photos that I could see, but the place was much more lived-in than Gabriel's or Claudia's safe house, with books and knickknacks and general clutter everywhere. Claudia probably had a place like that somewhere, where she retired to when she wasn't meeting with her officers.

 

That's right!  Good catch there.  The telephone people also lived in their little places as well, not quite the same way, but similar, with normal human clutter.

Granny would never risk Paige knowing where she actually lived, and I don't think she ever trusted Philip either.  Trade-craft alone would dictate than a handler not meet with vulnerable agents or officers in anyplace other than a safe house.  That doesn't mean they didn't have an actual place that was more homey somewhere though.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

If we go by what we saw onscreen, neither of them ever mentioned that Stan would be there for Henry once they were gone. We, as viewers, understand that it could happen, regardless. But I'm not sure that possibility entered their minds...until Stan showed up in the garage. In other words, they didn't have a plan. They just "knew" that they had to leave him behind (which I agree with).

Exactly! It may have been the right move but it wasn't necessarily a benevolent move. 

Which, to me would have been more interesting. Phil and Liz know that Henry was going to be ripped to pieces, yet also know that trying to save Henry was an even worse choice. Some acknowlegement that they are fully aware of this. I think the writers didn't trust the audience enough to go that dark.

[Ellaria]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Which, to me would have been more interesting. Phil and Liz know that Henry was going to be ripped to pieces, yet also know that trying to save Henry was an even worse choice. Some acknowlegement that they are fully aware of this. I think the writers didn't trust the audience enough to go that dark.

I'm not going to debate the merits of the writing in the finale. We aren't going to agree.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter because Uncle Stan was there, ready and able to step up. And that is just fine with me.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Absolutely. Their own plan was just that they knew he'd be better in the US and if he had to go through FBI interrogation first, there was nothing to be done about that. They didn't have to worry about him having a parent. He's taken care of his own room and board until he's 18--he's got this year at school (if we assume Philip paid that tuition like he said he would), then Henry's got scholarships and working in the summer, also with room and board. No plan, just acceptance that the consequences of bringing him to the USSR were worse.

I think it would have been better for Phil to say that trying to contact Henry and pick him up later was just likely to make things worse for Henry, because it was so unlikely to work.

[Blakeston]

I didn't necessarily expect an ending where Philip and Elizabeth got "what they deserved" for all the lives they'd ended and ruined, and I'm okay with us not getting one. In real life, people get away with horrible things all the time.

But what I do have a problem with is that this felt, to me, like the writers were trying to gloss over all of the horrible things P & E did. It would have been nice to have some acknowledgement of the carnage P & E were responsible for - like a montage of people whose lives were ruined. Instead all we got was a quick reference to Mr. and Mrs. Teacup (who, quite frankly, were traitors and knew the risk they were taking).

If nothing else, Stan really could have driven home to Paige just how brutal that double-murder truly was, and that there was no question that Elizabeth did it with her own hands. It would have been nice to see them face their child after she finds out that her parents' crimes went so, so much further than using sex as a tool for spycraft.

[Marianna]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I loved that moment--and I thought the same thing. Henry wasn't ignoring his father or freezing him out, he was doing exactly what he was doing here, taking his father's call for granted because he really does have a life of his own. And it's a life at school, not a life at home. I was trying to imagine what he might do for Christmas since that break was coming up--did he even say something like "See you next week?" Maybe it was just that he'd talk to him the next week because they always talked. Anyway, I don't envision Henry necessarily settling into just substituting Stan's house for his own across the street.

Also note that he picked up on Elizabeth's good-bye call right away because she never called him but with Philip he was used to him being supportive and loving--if not this maudlin. He probably figured Philip had encouraged Elizabeth to talk to him.

It's another reminder that while Henry will probably on some level be able to believe his mother was a spy this whole time, he's always going to struggle with his father. How is he ever going to wrap his mind around it?

Well, if Stan hadn't met them in the garage he might still have been the one to tell Henry what happened and would protect him. He might be colder at first if he thought Henry knew the truth but I think he'd quickly realize he didn't and then be protective. Stan would be there regardless and he didn't need much reason to be good to Henry.

Why on earth did Stan tell him in the hockey rink in front of a bunch of people?

[MJ Frog]

12 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As has been pointed out before, the FBI doesn't need to charge you with a crime to ruin your life. If they decide to ruin Henry's life as well, I could see them getting her to plead guilty, sentence contingent on what she has to trade.

I understand, but I was responding to this exchange:

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

What would she be going to prison for? There’s no evidence we’ve seen that the FBI has anything on Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings, much less anything that would implicate their daughter.  

You have to have proof to convict in the US.   Unless P&E kept records of their activities at the house or agency, it sure seems like a hard case to make.  And even if they make it against P&E, making an actual legal case against Paige seems even more daunting.  

We have the priest giving a positive id of Phil and Liz (really dumb writing not to have the priest do a photo id) as KGB. If people want to assume that no physical evidence of Paige being in KGB cars and KGB safehouses exists,  after several years of Paige being in them, or that the FBI never finds those cars and safehouses, despite now having a mechanism of tracking them down, fine. I disagree.

Whiporee asserted that there was no evidence to charge Paige -- a very specific point -- to which you replied that there was plenty of physical evidence of Paige's involvement. If I have misunderstood your point I apologize, but it sounded like a direct rebuttal of what Whiporee was saying about charges needing proof. No one, neither myself or anyone else that I have seen, is disputing that the FBI could, and very likely would, harass Paige. However, several people, myself and Whiporee included, believe that there is no evidence to charge her. The physical evidence, if it were collected and conclusive, would be virtually useless. Any evidence to charge her, or make a deal with her, would have to come from Paige herself.

[vixenbynight]

37 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Yeah. It was the only way Henry could reconcile this very oddly emotional speech from his dad: He’d been drinking and gotten sentimental. It was both funny that was where his mind went and so very sad. No where in his mind could he begin to comprehend that his dad was trying to say good bye, to say what he needed to say and what he thought Henry needed to hear from him as a parent with very little time. 

Another thing: Henry was over his parents leaving him to work on thanksgiving. No grudge was being held. 

Because Henry truly thought that ALL of their "trips" were about "business". He is going to look back at everything and really wonder why he never questioned anything. He just had complete faith and trust in his family.

Sigh.....

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I didn't necessarily expect an ending where Philip and Elizabeth got "what they deserved" for all the lives they'd ended and ruined, and I'm okay with us not getting one. In real life, people get away with horrible things all the time.

But what I do have a problem with is that this felt, to me, like the writers were trying to gloss over all of the horrible things P & E did. It would have been nice to have some acknowledgement of the carnage P & E were responsible for - like a montage of people whose lives were ruined. Instead all we got was a quick reference to Mr. and Mrs. Teacup (who, quite frankly, were traitors and knew the risk they were taking).

If nothing else, Stan really could have driven home to Paige just how brutal that double-murder truly was, and that there was no question that Elizabeth did it with her own hands. It would have been nice to see them face their child after she finds out that her parents' crimes went so, so much further than using sex as a tool for spycraft.

I don't think the writers glossed over the deaths, if anything, they increased Elizabeth's death toll all season long, we saw a murder almost every single episode, often, more than one.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I didn't necessarily expect an ending where Philip and Elizabeth got "what they deserved" for all the lives they'd ended and ruined, and I'm okay with us not getting one. In real life, people get away with horrible things all the time.

But what I do have a problem with is that this felt, to me, like the writers were trying to gloss over all of the horrible things P & E did. It would have been nice to have some acknowledgement of the carnage P & E were responsible for - like a montage of people whose lives were ruined. Instead all we got was a quick reference to Mr. and Mrs. Teacup (who, quite frankly, were traitors and knew the risk they were taking).

If nothing else, Stan really could have driven home to Paige just how brutal that double-murder truly was, and that there was no question that Elizabeth did it with her own hands. It would have been nice to see them face their child after she finds out that her parents' crimes went so, so much further than using sex as a tool for spycraft.

A few episodes back, I wrote that consequence free aspects of the violence the writers were indulging in was starting to become borderline offensive to me, because that isn't how violence works in this world. It wss starting to resemble a James Bond movie, and I hate, hate, hate James Bond movies.

Now, they partially rectified that by finally giving Liz some kind of stress reaction to all the murdering, about 3 seasons too late. The other part, Paige being oblivious to her parents murdering ways, well, they maintained that right to the bitter end, but by the finale it was too late to fix.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

But what I do have a problem with is that this felt, to me, like the writers were trying to gloss over all of the horrible things P & E did. It would have been nice to have some acknowledgement of the carnage P & E were responsible for - like a montage of people whose lives were ruined. Instead all we got was a quick reference to Mr. and Mrs. Teacup (who, quite frankly, were traitors and knew the risk they were taking).

LOL! Sorry, now I'm imagining the In Memoriam... montage at the Oscars.

12 minutes ago, Marianna said:

Why on earth did Stan tell him in the hockey rink in front of a bunch of people?

IKR? Okay Henry, back on the ice! I wonder if Henry will still like hockey since it's a sport he learned from his father...who it turns out is actually Russian!

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A few episodes back, I wrote that consequence free aspects of the violence the writers were indulging in was starting to become borderline offensive to me, because that isn't how violence works in this world. It wss starting to resemble a James Bond movie, and I hate, hate, hate James Bond movies.

Now, they partially rectified that by finally giving Liz some kind of stress reaction to all the murdering, about 3 seasons too late. The other part, Paige being oblivious to her parents murdering ways, well, they maintained that right to the bitter end, but by the finale it was too late to fix.

I was glad that it was pretty much all that murdering that got them caught. That's how the FBI realized they were after the sensor, which put them onto Harvest, which put them onto the priests, which put them onto Philip and Elizabeth. And also put Stan onto Philip and Elizabeth independently.