S13.E21: Beat The Devil

[gonzosgirrl]

Sam, Dean, Castiel and Gabriel must work together if they have any hope of bringing Mary and Jack home. Meanwhile, Rowena's encounter with Lucifer may alter the outcome of the journey for one of our heroes

[ILoveReading]

They were right about how it being mind blowing.  It blew my mind about how bad it was.

It's so obvious Beren's wants Sam to be the leader.  But he was 0 for 2.  Good job Sam.

Rip Sabriel.  We hardly knew ya.

Sam dies, Dean is sad.   Who saw that coming.

Mary sees Dean for the first time in months, first words out of her mouth, "Where's Sam" no wonder he has self worth issues. 

What about this script that there was no way I could be prepared for.

Edited May 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't know what the hype was about to the extent we wouldn't believe our eyes. Honestly, do they think killing Sam would be earth-shattering when we know he's not sincerely dead? I must say though, Jensen's one perfect tear will never not affect me. He is the master.

The most shocking thing I've heard on the show in forever though:

Cas (to Sam, regarding Lucifer): We let him out.

I am stunned they put it in textual canon. And he's definitely saying 'we' meaning him and Sam, IMO - because he talks first about how he and Sam have both been violated by him.

Rowena and Gabriel bumping uglies? Just, no.

Edited May 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[belbar]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They were right about how it being mind blowing.  It blew my mind about how bad it was.

It's so obvious Beren's wants Sam to be the leader.  But he was 0 for 2.  Good job Sam.

Rip Sabriel.  We hardly knew ya.

Sam dies, Dean is sad.   Who say that coming.

Mary sees Dean for the first time in months, first words out of her mouth, "Where's Sam" no wonder he has self worth issues. 

What about this script that there was no way I could be prepared for.

As you said this was Red Meat 2. It was that bad.

And now I'm officially a member of the "I vomited in my mouth" club

Edited May 4, 2018 by belbar

[Mulva]

That was a satisfying episode.  Loved Gabriel and Rowena.

[patty1h]

Slightly off-topic:  I'm in NY - did other markets get 2 commercials during the episode, for the NJ Spn convention in September, with Misha's voiceover as Castiel?  I never saw cons advertised on TV before.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, patty1h said:

Slightly off-topic:  I'm in NY - did other markets get 2 commercials during the episode, for the NJ Spn convention in September, with Misha's voiceover as Castiel?  I never saw cons advertised on TV before.  

I got this too

[Jeddah]

Dang, Cas and Dean sure gave up on Sam quickly.

I liked hearing “Cat’s in the Cradle.” A very fitting song for this show.

Sam’s dream of all of them eating pizza together just melted my heart. I hope when all of this is over that they have a real scene of all of them eating pizza together. 

I was way too amused by the glow sticks. I know they served a purpose, but Sam looked like he was hungover from a rave when he was talking to Lucifer.

I liked it, and I’m  excited about the next two episodes!

[BoxManLocke]

That sucked massively. I got really close to turning it off a couple of times.

 

The beginning of the ep was a utter trash, with everything being turned into lame jokes and Berens channeling his inner BuckLeming with the mind-numbingly stupid Rowena/Gabriel sexy scenes.

Yes, SPN can have comedy even in tense situations, but it needs to be subtle for it to work. Here, the dumb side completely took over the first 10 minutes, yet I was supposed to go right back into serious mode when they jumped into the rift. Well no, that's not how it works.

The rest of the episode was just depressingly predictable, first with Lucifer escaping very quickly, and that supposedly tense adventure through the tunnel that went exactly as I thought : Gabriel and Castiel, the only two allies who could have easily dispatched the vampires and were completely immune to them, suddenly became useless and nowhere to be seen when entering the tunnel.

Sam's death was completely anticlimatic and now we're supposed to be filled with wonder when one of the brother dies and is brought back within the same episode.

 

The only thing I "liked" was Lucifer's plan to get into Jack's good graces because it's actually not that stupid, and Jensen's selling Sam's death as best he could. But I literally couldn't care less about anything that's happening.

 

This season can't end soon enough.

[MysteryGuest]

Thoughts are all over the place on this one...

Glad Rowena wasn't killed again, and that she wasn't able to just walk away from the boys in trouble.  I like having Rowena as part of TFW.

Not sure what's up with Lucifer's grace.  You wouldn't think he'd have had much left after all that kept pouring out of him.  Are we to assume he was back to full strength prior to that?  I kept waiting for Rowena to seal his mouth shut somehow.

Sam died and was brought back...again.  Poor Cas wasn't happy to have to give the news to Dean.  For a moment, I thought that Lucifer wanted Sam to be his meat suit again, and I was getting annoyed.  I much prefer what happened.  Sam really didn't have much choice.  He could have opted to be killed again, but Lucifer would still have found Jack.  Better that Sam is there with them to help control him, if possible.

Mary was happy to see Dean.  I really want them to come to have her decision to stay behind in the AU not be a total downer for Sam and Dean.  There are ways for them to write that without it looking like she's abandoning her sons again.  

All in all, it seemed a little slow-paced, which was surprising.  Are they really going to set up Gabriel as the savior of Heaven?  I guess I wouldn't mind.  Even when he was fucking with Sam and Dean, he still came off as less of a dick than his brothers.

I can't imagine we have our big Michael showdown in the next two episodes, so I think he will be the big bad for next season, as well.  

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Jeddah said:

Dang, Cas and Dean sure gave up on Sam quickly.

Well Dean saw him get his throat ripped out and dragged off by vamps, and Castiel told him he was dead and stopped him from going to him. And Cas was right, they didn't have time. So I guess that's the growth/maturity everyone wants so badly. And the first thing Dean did when everyone was safely in the camp was head back out to retrieve Sam's body.

I guess we're not gonna talk about Sam choosing to live by agreeing to lead Lucifer right to Jack though.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Dang, Cas and Dean sure gave up on Sam quickly.

They saw Sam get his throat ripped out, Cas the body.

Gabriel said he wasn't strong enough.

What more could they have done?

[bettername2come]

When Cas said they couldn't save Sam, my first thought was "have you met Dean?" Also, I'm now incapable of seeing Dean cry without singing "Single Man Tear."

Thought Jared did some quality "playing dead" and looking ashamed when Lucifer popped up behind him to reveal he's the one to who brought Sam back. I always think he plays Sam's reactions regarding Lucifer so well. 

So annoyed when we didn't get Mary saying "Dean" like she did when she saw him as a ghost in season one. I was waiting for it.

[Lemuria]

4 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Dang, Cas and Dean sure gave up on Sam quickly.

Did they really?  Throat ripped out, arterial spray and all that.  There was no way they could have located Sam before he was dead.  And they still had the mission they'd come on to complete.  

[BoxManLocke]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They saw Sam get his throat ripped out, Cas the body.

Gabriel said he wasn't strong enough.

What more could they have done?

 

They could have stopped lifting rocks when Sam and the others got run over by vampires

 

It literally took Castiel a full minute to arrive even though he was like 10 feet from the others

 

I know that's not what you meant but holy shit the writing and directing in that scene was absolutely embarrassing

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Did they really?  Throat ripped out, arterial spray and all that.  There was no way they could have located Sam before he was dead.  And they still had the mission they'd come on to complete.  

I think Cas did reach him, and determined he was dead. ETA: Nevermind, I just re-read what you wrote. Sorry!

I wonder if Sam will be mad at Lucifer later for taking away his right to die? *snerk*

Edited May 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

hey could have stopped lifting rocks when Sam and the others got run over by vampires

 

Dean was trying to help random girl and random guy during the attack, plus Dean was pinned by his own vamp.

 

2 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I know that's not what you meant but holy shit the writing and directing in that scene was absolutely embarrassing

I'll give Phil Sciggria and Jerry Wanek some credit here.  I thought the trip through the tunnel was well done.  It was spooky and tense.  But I rolled my eyes so hard at Sam's unnecessary death.

[enaiowen]

13 minutes ago, patty1h said:

Slightly off-topic:  I'm in NY - did other markets get 2 commercials during the episode, for the NJ Spn convention in September, with Misha's voiceover as Castiel?  I never saw cons advertised on TV before. 

They've done it here for Houston Con too.

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, the Rowena/Gabriel hook-up was a little bit much.  Though they are two little munchkins, so it works.  Gabriel with his face in Cas' crotch went on far too long.

I didn't have a problem with Sam's decision about Lucifer.  Letting Lucifer sic the vampires on him again wouldn't have stopped Lucifer from getting to Jack.  At least this way, Sam is there to help somehow.  It's not Sam's fault that Lucifer got through the rift, so what options did he really have?

I think the only reason Mary asked about Sam was because of the expression on Dean's face.  She knew immediately that something was wrong, and since she was safe and so was Cas, that left only Sam.  I really didn't take it as a slap to Dean in any way.

Edited May 4, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[BoxManLocke]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean was trying to help random girl and random guy during the attack, plus Dean was pinned by his own vamp.

Dean tried to help, yes. The issue is Gabriel and Castiel that were nowhere to be seen. They could have easily prevented Sam's death, but the director couldn't be bothered to show them do anything or maybe be incapacitated or whatever. They literally weren't there until Sam died right next to them.

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, the Rowena/Gabriel hook-up was a little bit much.  Though they are two little munchkins, so it works.  Gabriel with his face in Cas' crotch seemed a bit much.  And that little scene went on far too long.

I didn't have a problem with Sam's decision about Lucifer.  Letting Lucifer sic the vampires on him again wouldn't have stopped Lucifer from getting to Jack.  At least this way, Sam is there to help somehow.  It's not Sam's fault that Lucifer got through the rift, so what options did he really have?

I think the only reason Mary asked about Sam was because of the expression on Dean's face.  She knew immediately that something was wrong, and since she was safe and so was Cas, that left only Sam.  I really didn't take it as a slap to Dean in any way.

I know I made a comment about Sam helping Lucifer upthread, but I actually agree - there was no percentage in dying again.

Also agree Mary got that something was wrong with Sam from Dean's demeanor.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Dean tried to help, yes. The issue is Gabriel and Castiel that were nowhere to be seen. They could have easily prevented Sam's death, but the director couldn't be bothered to show them do anything or maybe be incapacitated or whatever. They literally weren't there until Sam died right next to them.

I misunderstood, my apologies. 

But yes that was bad directing.

Quote

Also agree Mary got that something was wrong with Sam from Dean's demeanor.

It would have been nice to have Mary, just see Dean and say something like "Its so good to see you and then notice his body language, and then pulls back and have here say something like "where's Sam. "

Edited May 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lemuria]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't have a problem with Sam's decision about Lucifer.  Letting Lucifer sic the vampires on him again wouldn't have stopped Lucifer from getting to Jack.  At least this way, Sam is there to help somehow.  It's not Sam's fault that Lucifer got through the rift, so what options did he really have?

I think the only reason Mary asked about Sam was because of the expression on Dean's face.  She knew immediately that something was wrong, and since she was safe and so was Cas, that left only Sam.  I really didn't take it as a slap to Dean in any way.

I agree.  I'm hardly a Sam apologist but I don't see that Sam had a viable choice.   It didn't help anything if he died for nothing.  Lucifer would have found Jack anyway.

And Mary did look happy to see Dean and she hugged him, which (I may be wrong about this) is one hug more than she gave him last year.  When she didn't see Sam and she saw Dean's face, the question was understandable to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Dean tried to help, yes. The issue is Gabriel and Castiel that were nowhere to be seen. They could have easily prevented Sam's death, but the director couldn't be bothered to show them do anything or maybe be incapacitated or whatever. They literally weren't there until Sam died right next to them.

I guess this is why they demonstrated that Gabriel's grace was, err, limp, back in our world. Otherwise, why couldn't he just zap them through the tunnel, or all the way to Dayton for that matter.

[belbar]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'll give Phil Sciggria and Jerry Wanek some credit here.  I thought the trip through the tunnel was well done.  It was spooky and tense.  But I rolled my eyes so hard at Sam's unnecessary death.

I'm sorry but I don't agree here. Those scenes were the perfect opportunity for something really terrifying, but it was so clear what was going to happen that it took all the tension out of it . I don't think that any of it came as a surprise to anybody. As Crowley said this has become all so predictable that is not funny anymore.

We need some fresh air. I love Jensen's dramatic  scenes as much as anybody, but come on, enough of screaming "Sammy" and crying. What once was the OPT has become repetitive.

[BoxManLocke]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess this is why they demonstrated that Gabriel's grace was, err, limp, back in our world. Otherwise, why couldn't he just zap them through the tunnel, or all the way to Dayton for that matter.

I wasn't asking for Gabriel to dispatch all the vamps. But he didn't fight at all. Neither did Castiel. There isn't a single shot of them fighting. Seeing them struggle with vampires while Sam was getting murdered would have made, at least, a little more sense.

Like belbar said, there was potential here to do something really cool, for example seeing Gabe and Cass mowing down half a dozen vamps in a desperate race to save Sam. But no, a seasoned director like Sgriccia couldn't do a scene like this justice, and it's disappointing and embarrassing.

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[ZennyKenny]

Ok so I'm only 2/3rds of the way through the episode, but what is with Cas's out-of-the-blue attitude of not bothering to save Sam? Like since when do they leave Sam behind? And Dean is just going along with it? Wtf??

[Katy M]

I don't have much to add.  Except that I don't see why it was such a crime that Mary asked after SAm.  Even if Dean weren't upset, if you haven't seen your two sons in months, and one of them pops up, you give them a hug and ask about the other one.  If it had been reversed and Mary hadn't asked about  Dean, I don't want to even imagine the outcry.

And, yes, Sam really had no choice with Lucifer.  It's not like he's going to give Jack a hard sell and really try to convince him that Daddy's awesome.

And I also liked Rowena's return to help.  Not sure what she's going to do, but that's not really the point.  The point is that for once she's helping with no ulterior motive.  She could probably just shut the rift and be rid of Lucifer forever.  Which brngs up a point now that I think of it, they should have brought th rest of the ingredients in case it was necessary for them to try to use Gabe's grace to open it again.

And speaking of Gabriel, does he have wings?  If not, why?  Like Lucifer, he's an archangel.  And like Lucifer, he was not in Heaven for the fall. If Luci has wings, I can't think of one good reason for Gabe not to.  Unless the spell reached everywhere but Hell.

[Lady Calypso]

I'll admit; I enjoyed this episode a lot. I thought it was very strong, with really good moments given to all the characters. Ok, a little too much Lucifer for my tastes, but I recognize that there are people who actually do like Lucifer, so I guess they'll be satisfied? But yeah, overall, very minor quibbles because the last 15 minutes were good, even if predictable.

I feel a little ashamed to admit that I laughed at the Gabriel/Rowena stuff at the beginning. It shouldn't have been that funny. I didn't even want to laugh, but I did. 

At least shit happened in this episode. I've been bored at many of the filler episodes, so at least there was minor progress. 

I guess I'm just easy when it comes to this show. Give me some great acting moments with Jared, Jensen, and Misha, and I'm a happy camper. Sure, the writing isn't great, as usual, but the actors did what they could. 

That being said, Sam really didn't need to die just for him to help Lucifer. I can only hope Jack recognizes that Lucifer did it as leverage and not to be a good person. 

I can't disagree that it was very poor to have Gabriel and Cas not go to help Sam and Dean when they were right there and the scene went on for almost a full minute. Seriously, show, it's not like the two were several rooms over. 

I'm glad Rowena survived. I don't quite understand why she can't gather all the ingredients and jump into Apocalypse World, but whatever.

Overall, I did enjoy it. 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And speaking of Gabriel, does he have wings?  If not, why?  Like Lucifer, he's an archangel.  And like Lucifer, he was not in Heaven for the fall. If Luci has wings, I can't think of one good reason for Gabe not to.  Unless the spell reached everywhere but Hell.

They showed his wings in Bring Em Back Alive right before he roasted Asmodeous.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ok so I'm only 2/3rds of the way through the episode, but what is with Cas's out-of-the-blue attitude of not bothering to save Sam? Like since when do they leave Sam behind? And Dean is just going along with it? Wtf??

People really need to separate these two things. Cas and Gabriel moved rocks while Sam was being attacked. Dean was fighting some vamps of his own, saw Sam get his throat ripped out and dragged off by vamps, and Cas, his best friend, told him Sam was dead. Dean didn't just go along ffs.

[Castiels Cat]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They were right about how it being mind blowing.  It blew my mind about how bad it was.

It's so obvious Beren's wants Sam to be the leader.  But he was 0 for 2.  Good job Sam.

Rip Sabriel.  We hardly knew ya.

Sam dies, Dean is sad.   Who saw that coming.

Mary sees Dean for the first time in months, first words out of her mouth, "Where's Sam" no wonder he has self worth issues. 

What about this script that there was no way I could be prepared for.

Gabriel died!!! How did I miss that.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I wasn't asking for Gabriel to dispatch all the vamps. But he didn't fight at all. Neither did Castiel. There isn't a single shot of them fighting. Seeing them struggle with vampires while Sam was getting murdered would have made, at least, a little more sense.

Like belbar said, there was potential here to do something really cool, for example seeing Gabe and Cass mowing down half a dozen vamps in a desperate race to save Sam. But no, a seasoned director like Sgriccia couldn't do a scene like this justice, and it's disappointing and embarrassing.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just expounding a bit on Gabriel not helping and the laborious scenes at the start to show us he was, umm, impotent. I agree about them doing nothing in the tunnel.

[MysteryGuest]

I believe Gabriel still has his wings, but he has no juice to teleport.  I don't disagree that the scene in the tunnel was not very well staged.  They obviously couldn't have the angels rushing in to save the day, but they should have given them something else to do other than just stand there.  That was poor plotting on the writer's part.  

The scene was difficult to see, which I'm sure was by design, but I kept thinking they should have had better flashlights.  They barely lit up anything.  And what was the purpose of the glow sticks?  Other than making them easier targets for the monsters?

I basically enjoyed the episode, and I will be overjoyed if somehow Lucifer doesn't make it back.  He's not redeemed, he's still an ass who runs around killing indiscriminately, so he needs to go.  

[Wynne88]

If Gabriel used up all his remaining grace on the spell, how was he able to shape-shift and pop from one place to another in the bar?  

In the Spoilers thread I commented that despite Sam Smith's interview, I didn't think the group would be Sam Winchester's merry gang, but there were several places in the early part of the journey where he took the lead where Dean normally would, and Dean just nodded his head in the background.  I personally find it weird for Dean to take a step back at times like that without any reason; it's like the writers are just trying to make sure Sam gets some big damn hero moments before they kill him, maybe to make up for when he gives in to Lucifer a little later.  (Although I do agree that refusing wouldn't have accomplished anything.) 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

Gabriel died!!! How did I miss that.

No, Sabriel died (when Gabriel decided to bang Rowena). So I guess Samwena bit the dust, too. LOL!

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

They showed his wings in Bring Em Back Alive right before he roasted Asmodeous.

That's right. I knew I thought he had wings for some reason.  So, this is a case of angels being exactly as powerful as the show wants them to be in any given situation. Which is why I hate angels.  Although that's really everything. Sometmes, S&D can tap a demon lightly and it alls down writing in pain and other times they get their butts kicked by the same demon.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No, Sabriel died (when Gabriel decided to bang Rowena). So I guess Samwena bit the dust, too. LOL!

I died over the non joke about the lack of potency regarding his grace.

And I figured Lucifer would resurrect sam...

So... dumb

But Jensen was gorgeous and emotional. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Mulva]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No, Sabriel died (when Gabriel decided to bang Rowena). So I guess Samwena bit the dust, too. LOL!

Sawenbriel!

[BoxManLocke]

How about the fact that Jack and Mary are now famous enough to be known by a couple of randos the gang meets on the road.

 

Gee writers, I would've really liked seeing how the "great rebels Jack and Mary" came to be so famous. Maybe if I had seen this huge part of the show that happened off-screen, I would actually give a crap now !

[trudysmom]

I really thought they were going to have Dean make some kind of deal in the AU to bring Sammy back.  So when he sat up gasping, I was surprised, for a hot second.  It's frustrating to see a character like Jack being wasted like this, while the same old story of Winchesters vs. Lucifer just keeps being replayed.  I admit when his eyes glow red I think "oh shit" but 2 seconds later he's cracking jokes and being snarky.  It's hard to be afraid of him for long.  Overall this episode left me feeling meh.  Wonder if they can get back home, but if they don't, they have their happy family reunion in the AU.

[ZennyKenny]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

People really need to separate these two things. Cas and Gabriel moved rocks while Sam was being attacked. Dean was fighting some vamps of his own, saw Sam get his throat ripped out and dragged off by vamps, and Cas, his best friend, told him Sam was dead. Dean didn't just go along ffs.

Well we're talking about the same person who literally killed himself just to strike a deal with a reaper when he thought Sam was dead but ok sure, Dean totally wouldn't go down the hall himself and look for Sam, Right.

ALSO........ were ALL the reapers just super-busy? Because Sam just died. And according to Billie... you know, Billie, the reaper who is now DEATH... said that the next time one of the Winchesters died, it would be permanent.

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I believe Gabriel still has his wings, but he has no juice to teleport.  I don't disagree that the scene in the tunnel was not very well staged.  They obviously couldn't have the angels rushing in to save the day, but they should have given them something else to do other than just stand there.  That was poor plotting on the writer's part.  

The scene was difficult to see, which I'm sure was by design, but I kept thinking they should have had better flashlights.  They barely lit up anything.  And what was the purpose of the glow sticks?  Other than making them easier targets for the monsters?

I basically enjoyed the episode, and I will be overjoyed if somehow Lucifer doesn't make it back.  He's not redeemed, he's still an ass who runs around killing indiscriminately, so he needs to go.  

I thought that the tunnel scene was wrll done. Tbey borrowed well from both Res 1 and the Descent.

And it was horrifying when things became out of control though And Sam was overwhelmed until ... duh... no way he is dead dead dead.

 

But Gabriela is a walking red shirt and Lucifer is irredeemable.  Jack us unstable and innocent.

They still need someone with mojo to oppose AU Michael and fix heaven ...

Still baanking on Dean!Michael.  Dean still has to be near breaking point and Lucifer is a wild card.  

AU Apocalypse is too violent and AU Michael appears to be moving operations to our world 

Also Rowena may end up being the one to approach Michael first for grace as it stands unless ... lol canon... desdoitw the Winchesters exhausting all known lore she pulls a Charlie and finds another way.

1 hour ago, belbar said:

As you said this was Red Meat 2. It was that bad.

And now I'm officially a member of the "I vomited in my mouth" club

Red Meat... 

Berens was a good writer until Red Meat.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Well we're talking about the same person who literally killed himself just to strike a deal with a reaper when he thought Sam was dead but ok sure, Dean totally wouldn't go down the hall himself and look for Sam, Right.

Dean trusts Cas.   Plus, he saw Sam get this throat ripped out.

I'm happy for Dean's character growth that he knew they had to put the mission first.  Dean has done this in the past.

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Well we're talking about the same person who literally killed himself just to strike a deal with a reaper when he thought Sam was dead but ok sure, Dean totally wouldn't go down the hall himself and look for Sam, Right.

ALSO........ were ALL the reapers just super-busy? Because Sam just died. And according to Billie... you know, Billie, the reaper who is now DEATH... said that the next time one of the Winchesters died, it would be permanent.

AU Apocalypse... different rules different reapers.

Dean was killing vamps on the other side of the cave and he is not g oing to let a girl be killed in front of him.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

ALSO........ were ALL the reapers just super-busy? Because Sam just died. And according to Billie... you know, Billie, the reaper who is now DEATH... said that the next time one of the Winchesters died, it would be permanent.

That was in this universe. The Au has their own reapers.  Who have never heard of Sam and Dean and therefore bear them no animosity.  And, like angel power, reapers reap as fast or as slow as is necessary for the situation.  Sometimes souls are gone pretty much immediately, other times it takes hours.  

[Bergamot]

32 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I agree.  I'm hardly a Sam apologist but I don't see that Sam had a viable choice.   It didn't help anything if he died for nothing.  Lucifer would have found Jack anyway.

As you say it was all very sensible, but I still wish he had just told Lucifer to go screw himself. That whole scenario struck me as kind of lame and anti-climactic. Partly I think because all Lucifer did was threaten to let the vampires eat him. The show likes to pretend that Lucifer is somehow this terrifying being whose very appearance freezes everyone's blood, and that is the scariest, most horrifying fate he can come up with?

The strain that the show's version of Lucifer has put on things has never been more evident. The writers obviously believe that Lucifer is both absolutely hilarious and impressively terrifying, and he is neither. He is LAME. He is a pathetic boring loser of a character, and the show's devotion to him has really dragged it down.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Well we're talking about the same person who literally killed himself just to strike a deal with a reaper when he thought Sam was dead but ok sure, Dean totally wouldn't go down the hall himself and look for Sam, Right.

ALSO........ were ALL the reapers just super-busy? Because Sam just died. And according to Billie... you know, Billie, the reaper who is now DEATH... said that the next time one of the Winchesters died, it would be permanent.

They were in the AU. As far as we know, Billie has no power there.

And in Red Meat, Dean also left Sam's body behind in order to do what needed done first. Then he dealt with Sam. He did the same thing here - got them to Mary and Jack. Then he was going back for Sam, where he would've done who knows what. But Sam showed up alive before he could.

I know people like to beat up on Dean just because, but he doesn't deserve it this time. Just like Sam doesn't deserve grief for not letting Lucifer throw him back to the vamps.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean trusts Cas.   Plus, he saw Sam get this throat ripped out.

I'm happy for Dean's character growth that he knew they had to put the mission first.  Dean has done this in the past.

He did it in the very episode the OP cited. He left Sam behind to save the two vics.

[Castiels Cat]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't have much to add.  Except that I don't see why it was such a crime that Mary asked after SAm.  Even if Dean weren't upset, if you haven't seen your two sons in months, and one of them pops up, you give them a hug and ask about the other one.  If it had been reversed and Mary hadn't asked about  Dean, I don't want to even imagine the outcry.

And, yes, Sam really had no choice with Lucifer.  It's not like he's going to give Jack a hard sell and really try to convince him that Daddy's awesome.

And I also liked Rowena's return to help.  Not sure what she's going to do, but that's not really the point.  The point is that for once she's helping with no ulterior motive.  She could probably just shut the rift and be rid of Lucifer forever.  Which brngs up a point now that I think of it, they should have brought th rest of the ingredients in case it was necessary for them to try to use Gabe's grace to open it again.

And speaking of Gabriel, does he have wings?  If not, why?  Like Lucifer, he's an archangel.  And like Lucifer, he was not in Heaven for the fall. If Luci has wings, I can't think of one good reason for Gabe not to.  Unless the spell reached everywhere but Hell.

They should definitely have brought ingredients wirh them just in case... Dean's plan B....

I thought the same thing.

I agree about Mary.  Of courseshe would wonder about Sam...  And Sam had little choice unless he has a death wish and tha This one trait he lacks.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Cas did reach him, and determined he was dead. ETA: Nevermind, I just re-read what you wrote. Sorry!

I wonder if Sam will be mad at Lucifer later for taking away his right to die? *snerk*

Lmao.

[ZennyKenny]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That was in this universe. The Au has their own reapers.  Who have never heard of Sam and Dean and therefore bear them no animosity.  And, like angel power, reapers reap as fast or as slow as is necessary for the situation.  Sometimes souls are gone pretty much immediately, other times it takes hours.  

Ok, fair enough.