S05.E18: All Roads Lead...

[Affogato]

On 4/21/2018 at 3:07 PM, Enigma X said:

I don't blame Yo-yo for killing Ruby either. 

Can someone tell me again why May or Mack could not have been in charge and have Daisy  shadow for training? I know the real reason is that the writers deemed it so, but in actuality it makes no professional sense.  Even if I felt she was written as doing a great job, it would still make no sense.

Nope, Ruby needed killing.

I don't think Shield exists anymore. Not the shield that was overseen by a congressional committee and gave the hulk credit cards for new clothing so they could trace his movements. What we have here is a small group of former shield operatives gathered together under Coulson, who has claim to the title 'director'. Shield at no time has been a democracy and it no longer has a board of directors (congress, I guess). So who better to pick his successor than Coulson? And Coulson is dying. No one is going to argue with him, out of respect. If Daisy totally messes up they will wait until coulson dies.

[Affogato]

On 4/22/2018 at 1:52 PM, Froippi said:

Also add the fact that Even though Robin is a seer I feel like she is hiding something on purpose whether it be she is the real destroyer of worlds or something else but she just gives off that werid vibe that is uncomfortable 

She was hiding that she was going to be kidnapped by talbot and that may be the last time she sees her mother. She doesn't think she can change the things she sees and she tries not to think about them. She has been withdrawing (from her mother) because of it.

[Gothish520]

7 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Daisy going all "Poor Ruby, she's just a misguided kid" after Ruby cut off Elena's arms and beat up FitzSimmons is the most contrived writing ever on the face of this Earth. I mean, I didn't expect nothing less from Daisy who is a giant hypocrite and said she will never forgive Fitz for torturing her. But yeah, poor murderous Ruby indeed!

I have absolutely no idea where or why daisy got the idea that Ruby could be converted. Maybe she felt Ruby reminded her of herself? (Except for the murderous tendencies).

[blueray]

29 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I have absolutely no idea where or why daisy got the idea that Ruby could be converted. Maybe she felt Ruby reminded her of herself? (Except for the murderous tendencies).

This is what I thought. She saw that Ruby was at first scared of her power and clearly had no idea how to control it. Daisy was basically offering to help her. However, it became clear that Ruby didn't want her help and with her killing history, she would have become more of a villain if anything.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Quote

Simmons can clearly refuse to do it since she feels that they were invincible and won't die. Why the hell won't she bring that up to Ruby and Baby Von Strucker, even as a gloat to Ruby?

Just because Simmons thinks they can't die doesn't mean they can't be tortured, or have limbs cut off, or get pummeled in the face over & over.

[Gothish520]

11 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Just because Simmons thinks they can't die doesn't mean they can't be tortured, or have limbs cut off, or get pummeled in the face over & over.

Exactly! Yo-Yo's not dead, doesn't mean Fitz and Simmons want to end up like her. There's no way they can or should be blamed for what happened - Ruby and Strucker were nuts. Seriously.

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

Exactly! Yo-Yo's not dead, doesn't mean Fitz and Simmons want to end up like her. There's no way they can or should be blamed for what happened - Ruby and Strucker were nuts. Seriously.

Quote

Just because Simmons thinks they can't die doesn't mean they can't be tortured, or have limbs cut off, or get pummeled in the face over & over.

 

Yes, Simmons and Fitz can be blamed because they were the ones that decided to go off on their own to destroy the machine. Instead, they were careless and got caught then they fixed the machine, which lead to Ruby getting some of the Gravitonium and then Yo-Yo had to kill Ruby (with a dash of revenge as well) to just end it (and it looks like that they might've been the actual catalysts to start the entire swing of events to happen). They should've just told Ruby to go fuck herself or something (okay, this show is still PG-13 so they won't say exactly that but still they can still tell Ruby off) since they believe that they were "invincible" because they believe in a static timeline. So at least Simmons was not worried about losing limbs (because again, Simmons don't believe that is part of her future). None of it, in my opinion, made a lot of sense. It was like Simmons at one point believed that she was invincible to the point where she wanted to risk drinking the acid and also breaking Fitz out of prison, and then suddenly in the next episodes felt that she could've died and quiver in fear. 

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Nope, Ruby needed killing.

I don't think Shield exists anymore. Not the shield that was overseen by a congressional committee and gave the hulk credit cards for new clothing so they could trace his movements. What we have here is a small group of former shield operatives gathered together under Coulson, who has claim to the title 'director'. Shield at no time has been a democracy and it no longer has a board of directors (congress, I guess). So who better to pick his successor than Coulson? And Coulson is dying. No one is going to argue with him, out of respect. If Daisy totally messes up they will wait until coulson dies.

Yes, I agree that Ruby needed to be killed at that point but that doesn't mean that Fitz and Simmons are now off the hook or something. Their actions within the past few episodes have (again) lead to a disaster because they felt that they a) could stop the world ending, b) believed that they were "invincible"  because they were told they will have a daughter in X years (and how old was their daughter when she had Deke? Because the  MCU Wiki says that Deke is only supposed to be like 20 something and was born in the 2060s which sounds really young for him to be here, even for this show that tends to make their characters a bit older than the actors who play them- and also sometimes their comic book counterparts- and Jeff Ward is only 31 in real life. So, even if Simmons and Fitz have a daughter now- meaning 2018- then she would be 48/49 at the time she gives birth to Deke. Which is a bit old for a woman. Not impossible but really pushing it before the average age of menopause- which is like between 48-55, to happen AND he was supposed to be the last "natural" birth/convinced child before the Kree decided to force sterilized everyone and just artificially control the birthrate in the humans) c) Simmons, Deke, and Yo-Yo broke Fitz out of his cell (he was put in their by Daisy because he snapped/gave into his "Dr. Hydra-Mengele-Fitlzer" personal and tortured Daisy. Sure that gave Daisy her powers back but what he did was so wrong and the show is just whitewashing/handwaving it away because it's Fitz.

[Gothish520]

5 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

 

Yes, Simmons and Fitz can be blamed because they were the ones that decided to go off on their own to destroy the machine. Instead, they were careless and got caught then they fixed the machine, which lead to Ruby getting some of the Gravitonium and then Yo-Yo had to kill Ruby (with a dash of revenge as well) to just end it (and it looks like that they might've been the actual catalysts to start the entire swing of events to happen). They should've just told Ruby to go fuck herself or something (okay, this show is still PG-13 so they won't say exactly that but still they can still tell Ruby off) since they believe that they were "invincible" because they believe in a static timeline. So at least Simmons was not worried about losing limbs (because again, Simmons don't believe that is part of her future). None of it, in my opinion, made a lot of sense. It was like Simmons at one point believed that she was invincible to the point where she wanted to risk drinking the acid and also breaking Fitz out of prison, and then suddenly in the next episodes felt that she could've died and quiver in fear. 

Yes, I agree that Ruby needed to be killed at that point but that doesn't mean that Fitz and Simmons are now off the hook or something. Their actions within the past few episodes have (again) lead to a disaster because they felt that they a) could stop the world ending, b) believed that they were "invincible"  because they were told they will have a daughter in X years (and how old was their daughter when she had Deke? Because the  MCU Wiki says that Deke is only supposed to be like 20 something and was born in the 2060s which sounds really young for him to be here, even for this show that tends to make their characters a bit older than the actors who play them- and also sometimes their comic book counterparts- and Jeff Ward is only 31 in real life. So, even if Simmons and Fitz have a daughter now- meaning 2018- then she would be 48/49 at the time she gives birth to Deke. Which is a bit old for a woman. Not impossible but really pushing it before the average age of menopause- which is like between 48-55, to happen AND he was supposed to be the last "natural" birth/convinced child before the Kree decided to force sterilized everyone and just artificially control the birthrate in the humans) c) Simmons, Deke, and Yo-Yo broke Fitz out of his cell (he was put in their by Daisy because he snapped/gave into his "Dr. Hydra-Mengele-Fitlzer" personal and tortured Daisy. Sure that gave Daisy her powers back but what he did was so wrong and the show is just whitewashing/handwaving it away because it's Fitz.

I love Fitz and Simmons, watch me as I HAND-WAVE away everything they do! WHEEEEEE!

Blaming them for eventually fixing the machine (after doing it wrong and stalling for as long as possible) makes no sense - Ruby and Strucker were horrifyingly cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Easy for someone to say they shouldn't be scared, but I would've been terrified, whether I thought I was invincible or no. Again, invincible doesn't mean impervious to pain/torture/severe mental anguish.

[TVSpectator]

10 hours ago, Raja said:

Deathlok flew the first batch in. They are the remaining vigilantes who accept Coulson as their leader and did not abandon S.H.I.E.L.D, for sanctioned agencies after the Hydra emergence  like Sharon Carter joining the CIA or go the private sector like Maria Hill joining Stark/The Avengers. Their only legal authority is in people like General Talbot are willing to let them run free sort of like criminal confidential informants are.

 

A few would also remain after the SHIELD reemergence under Director Mace and they then remained as vigilantes.

 

As the status of SHIELD goes it's like this:

 

Season 1

Episodes 1-16- they are all legit government agents

Episodes 17-22- SHIELD is no longer and they become targets for the government because everyone assumes that they are Hydra agents because, and this is just my guess, is that they refused to surrender (unlike Maria Hill) to the government. This was why Talbot was chasing them. Fury then shows up at the end and proclaims that Coulson is now the new "director" of SHIELD (even though SHIELD doesn't exist anymore) and he is given Fury's Toolbox which has all of SHIELD's files and every secret that they ever had over the years. Even the stuff that Fury has kept "off the books" because it was his personal records of top-secret programs/sites/accounts, etc....

Season 2

Episodes 1-22. Their status hasn't changed since the latter half of Season 1. Talbot is still chasing them for the first half of the season and eventually, everything gets dropped because they save Talbot's life because Agent 33 (with her face mask and also being brainwashed by Hydra. Like we literally see her being brainwashed and tortured by Whitehall. Also later that season we learn that Bobbi once undercover just gave Hydra a location of a safe house that Agent 33 was hiding in and that was how she was captured) tries to go after him and I think they tried to go after his wife.  Coulson and his team stop whatever evil plan Hydra had for Talbot. 

Season 3. 

Episodes 1- 13- Their status hasn't really changed. They are still just acting without any government authority at all. 

Episodes 13-22- President Ellis decided to make them a "special" black-ops "off the books" agency because of their "special knowledge" but holds off on resurrecting SHIELD because it was "too soon for the public" Ellis mentions that this could be years before they can come back because of what the public sees them as (you know that whole, Hydra thing"). The ATCU was supposed to be the "public" face of everything at this time period. 

Season 4

Episodes 1-22- they are officially welcome back to the government and they make their public announcement that they are "back". 

Season 5

Episodes 1- now they are the most wanted criminals in the world, their faces are everywhere, the government is hunting them down, and (from the looks of it) SHIELD is gone, again. 

1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

I love Fitz and Simmons, watch me as I HAND-WAVE away everything they do! WHEEEEEE!

Blaming them for eventually fixing the machine (after doing it wrong and stalling for as long as possible) makes no sense - Ruby and Strucker were horrifyingly cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Easy for someone to say they shouldn't be scared, but I would've been terrified, whether I thought I was invincible or no. Again, invincible doesn't mean impervious to pain/torture/severe mental anguish.

Please, what Fitz did was something that only Hydra does but the show just wants us to like/forgive/forget/handwave it away about it because it's Fitz. That isn't good writing in my opinion. At least when we see characters like Whitehall, Ruby, Hale, Hive, Malick, Baby Von Strucker, Ward, hell even Raina and Jiaying do it- it at least makes sense, and be "in character" because they are supposed to be the evil bad guys that have no morals. When the main characters do it and then the show is trying to force us to like them that is when the writing starts to fall apart. It also doesn't just suddenly make it okay either for them to do it but actually makes it even worse because these are the main characters/good guys literally doing what Hydra does. 

 

Not only that Simmons thought that nothing could hurt them so their wasn't a reason why she should be afraid of Ruby or Baby Von Strucker (hey, do you remember back in Season 3 when Baby Von Strucker was in a coma and the SHIELD team used that memory machine to torture him for information and Lincoln was like, "holy fuck you guys are fucking evil, I want to quit SHIELD?" while everyone else was like, "Yes. More!")

Edited April 25, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Not only that Simmons thought that nothing could hurt them so their wasn't a reason why she should be afraid of Ruby or Baby Von Strucker

She thought nothing could kill them, not that nothing could hurt them. Again, the threat/fear of physical torture is a pretty strong motivator. 

But really, I mostly just sit back and enjoy the show. I'm not one to analyze every nuance and motivation and pick apart things...I just want to unwind and be entertained at the end of the day. This show still does that for me, so it's all good.

[TVSpectator]

5 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

She thought nothing could kill them, not that nothing could hurt them. Again, the threat/fear of physical torture is a pretty strong motivator. 

But really, I mostly just sit back and enjoy the show. I'm not one to analyze every nuance and motivation and pick apart things...I just want to unwind and be entertained at the end of the day. This show still does that for me, so it's all good.

The word, "invincible" implies that nothing will hurt them though. It also implied that they thought that they wouldn't have been captured as well, IMO.

[Gothish520]

1 minute ago, TVSpectator said:

The word, "invincible" implies that nothing will hurt them though. It also implied that they thought that they wouldn't have been captured as well, IMO.

Simmons made it pretty clear she thinks they are invincible because they make it to the lighthouse and have a daughter. There is nothing in her statements that implies that she thinks they skip through fields of daisies to get there.

[TVSpectator]

41 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Simmons made it pretty clear she thinks they are invincible because they make it to the lighthouse and have a daughter. There is nothing in her statements that implies that she thinks they skip through fields of daisies to get there.

Except that it motivated her to break Fitz out and then go after Hydra's "Destroyer of the Worlds" machine though. Seems like she thinks that nothing bad will happen to the two of them so again, her sudden fear of "oh, no big bad Ruby is going to hurt us" doesn't really make much sense. To her, "invincible" implies engaging in really risky behavior and coming out, her and Fitz in particular, unscathed. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by TVSpectator

[tessaray]

3 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Except that it motivated her to break Fitz out and then go after Hydra's "Destroyer of the Worlds" machine though. Seems like she thinks that nothing bad will happen to the two of them so again, her sudden fear of "oh, no big bad Ruby is going to hurt us" doesn't really make much sense. To her, "invincible" implies engaging in really risky behavior and coming out, her and Fitz in particular, unscathed. 

Because she (finally) realizes that alive doesn't mean unscathed?  That there are a lot of parts that can be damaged while leaving the reproductive parts in working order?

[jhlipton]

18 hours ago, Affogato said:

She was hiding that she was going to be kidnapped by talbot and that may be the last time she sees her mother. She doesn't think she can change the things she sees and she tries not to think about them. She has been withdrawing (from her mother) because of it.

And she was also not-drawing because of it.  LOL

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, tessaray said:

Because she (finally) realizes that alive doesn't mean unscathed?  That there are a lot of parts that can be damaged while leaving the reproductive parts in working order?

But Simmons actions (and later Fitz's actions) lead to Ruby getting more powerful with the Gravitonium. Basically if Simmons didn't think that she can't die or think that she would be fine with almost drinking the posin then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Its about cause and effect which some fans apparently don't understand and are blaming Yo-Yo for motivating Hale to get the Alien Confederate involve.

Edited April 25, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

18 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

But Simmons actions (and later Fitz's actions) lead to Ruby getting more powerful with the Gravitonium. Basically if Simmons didn't think that she can't die or think that she would be fine with almost drinking the posin then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Its about cause and effect which some fans apparently don't understand and are blaming Yo-Yo for motivating Hale to get the Alien Confederate involve.

 

If Daisy had follow Fitz intel instead of being so dam worry about Coulson it would of never gotten that bad either so you have two different ways of looking at it i’m Still convinced going after coulson accomplished nothing not to mention you had a Hydra spy put into the base after rescuing Coulson 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Froippi

[shrewd.buddha]

13 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

As the status of SHIELD goes it's like this:

....Season 5

Episodes 1- now they are the most wanted criminals in the world, their faces are everywhere, the government is hunting them down, and (from the looks of it) SHIELD is gone, again. 

I get that you can't have Agents of SHIELD without SHIELD,  I understand that Coulson and his core group are basically branded as SHIELD and are stuck - - and they  also sort of like the hero aspect of it.
What I do not understand is a possible motivation for the red-shirts and other underlings for remaining in SHIELD. What type of military career choice would that be? Even the MCU showed Maria Hill and Sharon Carter changing jobs. And being an agent would be a job, right? ..with the expectation of pay and other benefits.  Otherwise the nameless SHIELD agents are not much different than the Hydra henchmen who have no real personal  lives and just show up to be cannon fodder. 
....All of which reminds me that is is a comic book world and maybe I am overthinking everything about it.

[Raja]

38 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I get that you can't have Agents of SHIELD without SHIELD,  I understand that Coulson and his core group are basically branded as SHIELD and are stuck - - and they  also sort of like the hero aspect of it.
What I do not understand is a possible motivation for the red-shirts and other underlings for remaining in SHIELD. What type of military career choice would that be? Even the MCU showed Maria Hill and Sharon Carter changing jobs. And being an agent would be a job, right? ..with the expectation of pay and other benefits.  Otherwise the nameless SHIELD agents are not much different than the Hydra henchmen who have no real personal  lives and just show up to be cannon fodder. 
....All of which reminds me that is is a comic book world and maybe I am overthinking everything about it.

The S.H.I.E.L.D redshirt is just like the Coulson SG-1, to cross franchises,  team in motivation. They must think that an international,if mostly American,  S.H.I.E.L.D is an important thing for the world which they will support. Important enough not to apply for the CIA or agencies with other focuses when their agency was torn apart.

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

But Simmons actions (and later Fitz's actions) lead to Ruby getting more powerful with the Gravitonium. Basically if Simmons didn't think that she can't die or think that she would be fine with almost drinking the posin then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Its about cause and effect which some fans apparently don't understand and are blaming Yo-Yo for motivating Hale to get the Alien Confederate involve.

Yeah, I've been really disappointed in FitzSimmons this season.  Jemma even more so, I think.  If I blame Yo-Yo at all, it's for enabling their idiotic decisions.

I really hate it when characters change for plot purposes.  May hasn't even escaped. Mack is the only sane person in the group anymore. 

[Raja]

51 minutes ago, tessaray said:

Yeah, I've been really disappointed in FitzSimmons this season.  Jemma even more so, I think.  If I blame Yo-Yo at all, it's for enabling their idiotic decisions.

I really hate it when characters change for plot purposes.  May hasn't even escaped. Mack is the only sane person in the group anymore. 

Well Mac had the only good Framework experience among the group 

[Gothish520]

4 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

But Simmons actions (and later Fitz's actions) lead to Ruby getting more powerful with the Gravitonium. Basically if Simmons didn't think that she can't die or think that she would be fine with almost drinking the posin then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Its about cause and effect which some fans apparently don't understand and are blaming Yo-Yo for motivating Hale to get the Alien Confederate involve.

 

And then it lead to Strucker and Ruby both dying without causing any serious harm to anyone else. Of course, it motivated Hale for the worse, but I never trusted her to begin with. I believe she would've sold them out no matter what.

I'm not blaming Yo-Yo at all, I can't imagine why anyone would do that. But I don't go on any other forums, so I'm not troubling myself with that nonsense.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Gothish520

[Ceindreadh]

6 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

But Simmons actions (and later Fitz's actions) lead to Ruby getting more powerful with the Gravitonium. Basically if Simmons didn't think that she can't die or think that she would be fine with almost drinking the posin then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Its about cause and effect which some fans apparently don't understand and are blaming Yo-Yo for motivating Hale to get the Alien Confederate involve.

Given the amount of pain Yo-Yo was in at that point, I doubt if she was thinking that clearly. 

When Yo-Yo was talking to her future self, didn’t we find out that future Yo-Yo had been revived by Kassius to act as his seer? If so, then how can she possibly think she’s invulnerable when she knows for a fact that she dies at some point?

[TVSpectator]

47 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Given the amount of pain Yo-Yo was in at that point, I doubt if she was thinking that clearly. 

When Yo-Yo was talking to her future self, didn’t we find out that future Yo-Yo had been revived by Kassius to act as his seer? If so, then how can she possibly think she’s invulnerable when she knows for a fact that she dies at some point?

All I really know is that Simmons thinks that Fitz, Yo-Yo, and her are invincible in all of this because they all do something after the so-called end of the world.

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

All of which reminds me that is is a comic book world and maybe I am overthinking everything about it.

Ding ding ding!

8 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

When Yo-Yo was talking to her future self, didn’t we find out that future Yo-Yo had been revived by Kassius to act as his seer? If so, then how can she possibly think she’s invulnerable when she knows for a fact that she dies at some point?

Because if she's revived by Kassius , she has to be alive when he takes over.  Her body has to be "fresh" -- there was an Inhuman that Kassius couldn't revive because he had been dead too long.  If the time-line can't be altered, Yo-Yo has to make it to the future.

[Ceindreadh]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Ding ding ding!

Because if she's revived by Kassius , she has to be alive when he takes over.  Her body has to be "fresh" -- there was an Inhuman that Kassius couldn't revive because he had been dead too long.  If the time-line can't be altered, Yo-Yo has to make it to the future.

Ok, that makes sense. 

Of course now I’m thinking that Fitz-Simmons don’t necessarily have to survive to have a kid...a song as their DNA does.  (Test tube babies clones surrogates etc!)

[TVSpectator]

6 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Ok, that makes sense. 

Of course now I’m thinking that Fitz-Simmons don’t necessarily have to survive to have a kid...a song as their DNA does.  (Test tube babies clones surrogates etc!)

What if Deke isn't their kid but is like an imposter and/or like a nephew or something?

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

What if Deke isn't their kid but is like an imposter and/or like a nephew or something?

We know Deke has to be related to both Fitz and Simmons because Hale was given a report which said his DNA was matched to them. 

Not sure how he could be anything other than a direct descendant. Although I suppose if Fitz and Simmons had children separately they could be Dekes parents. 

[Froippi]

Maybe it’s just me but I feel only May and Mack have stayed faithful to the team this season everyone else I can question what they did 

 

by the way Ruby would of gotten infused regardless if FitzSimmons was their or not so to really blame them i’m Not sure is fair she gets infused either way now if YoYo not their the outcome is different though 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Froippi

[Froippi]

their is one particular line from 5x09 that Kaisus says to YoYo and I cannot shake that feeling that this is so true right now but its this one "you will always turn on one another." just something I remember it keeps playing true to not sure what it will take for the team to stop turning on one another

Edited April 27, 2018 by Froippi

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

We know Deke has to be related to both Fitz and Simmons because Hale was given a report which said his DNA was matched to them. 

Not sure how he could be anything other than a direct descendant. Although I suppose if Fitz and Simmons had children separately they could be Dekes parents. 

Well, yes there is that DNA test that Hale did but what I was trying to fanwork/head theory was that since CyberJawa1986 was wondering if Deke is possibly working an angle and you mentioned that only their DNA can surivive, I suggested that maybe he could've somehow used his knowledge of both alien and future tech to make it looks like he is Fitz's and Simmons's grandson (via our 2010s DNA tech/tests and also the fact that he knew that Ftiz and Simmons were a couple in 2091 but never realized that they were his grandparents UNTIL he is in the present- our present not his). Because  Deke is honestly so boring, IMO, and pointless. Overall, like you, I do doubt that the writers would go that route that and Deke is actually Fitz and Simmons grandson and but he is such a wasted character, in my opinion. Plus, as character backgrounds go, in my opinion, his sucks as well and then we saw Fitz torturing Daisy and Simmons tricking Mack, locking Mack up in Fitz's holding cell, and then go on a suicide mission to save the world. Instead, they end up actually making sure that Ruby got too absorbed some of the Gravitromium and in the end, this entire "family" can just be wiped out when Thanos comes, as far as I care.  Overall, I was just hoping that maybe there was something more interesting going on underneath but yeah, its probably being played straight as him being their grandson, etc...

 

6 hours ago, Froippi said:

Maybe it’s just me but I feel only May and Mack have stayed faithful to the team this season everyone else I can question what they did 

 

by the way Ruby would of gotten infused regardless if FitzSimmons was their or not so to really blame them i’m Not sure is fair she gets infused either way now if YoYo not their the outcome is different though 

I feel like it's me but for a long time May was a consistent character and so was Mack. Now, though they are writing May like she is in love with Coulson and it's annoying because it was never presented as like those two were ever in love with each other in the earlier seasons before Season 4. Mack has always been written as for having a soft spot for Daisy and pretty much failed to talk her out when she was under Hive's "sway" and also not a real smart move either The only one that actually stayed consistent during that time was May and actually mentioned that killing Daisy might've been the only option given that she (along with Hive) were too dangerous and if they couldn't save her then she would be a threat and needed to be handled as such. Now, though, she is being written like what Fitz did was nothing (when it's not) and also that she somehow fell in love with Coulson.

At this point pretty much SHIELD is falling apart at the seems and I won't be surprised that what Fitz and Simmons did, by fixing the machine, they have set in motion the end of the world.

[Froippi]

7 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Well, yes there is that DNA test that Hale did but what I was trying to fanwork/head theory was that since CyberJawa1986 was wondering if Deke is possibly working an angle and you mentioned that only their DNA can surivive, I suggested that maybe he could've somehow used his knowledge of both alien and future tech to make it looks like he is Fitz's and Simmons's grandson (via our 2010s DNA tech/tests and also the fact that he knew that Ftiz and Simmons were a couple in 2091 but never realized that they were his grandparents UNTIL he is in the present- our present not his). Because  Deke is honestly so boring, IMO, and pointless. Overall, like you, I do doubt that the writers would go that route that and Deke is actually Fitz and Simmons grandson and but he is such a wasted character, in my opinion. Plus, as character backgrounds go, in my opinion, his sucks as well and then we saw Fitz torturing Daisy and Simmons tricking Mack, locking Mack up in Fitz's holding cell, and then go on a suicide mission to save the world. Instead, they end up actually making sure that Ruby got too absorbed some of the Gravitromium and in the end, this entire "family" can just be wiped out when Thanos comes, as far as I care.  Overall, I was just hoping that maybe there was something more interesting going on underneath but yeah, its probably being played straight as him being their grandson, etc...

 

I feel like it's me but for a long time May was a consistent character and so was Mack. Now, though they are writing May like she is in love with Coulson and it's annoying because it was never presented as like those two were ever in love with each other in the earlier seasons before Season 4. Mack has always been written as for having a soft spot for Daisy and pretty much failed to talk her out when she was under Hive's "sway" and also not a real smart move either The only one that actually stayed consistent during that time was May and actually mentioned that killing Daisy might've been the only option given that she (along with Hive) were too dangerous and if they couldn't save her then she would be a threat and needed to be handled as such. Now, though, she is being written like what Fitz did was nothing (when it's not) and also that she somehow fell in love with Coulson.

At this point pretty much SHIELD is falling apart at the seems and I won't be surprised that what Fitz and Simmons did, by fixing the machine, they have set in motion the end of the world.

At this point I feel Shield was gone the moment Daisy was given leadership and on top of that not everyone is willing to take orders from Daisy as much as people want to believe it as far as FitzSimmons actions go that You have no real evidence that is what causes it just speculation 

 

For the record quaking people to make them follow your orders is not my definition of leadership either so if she goes down this road I won't accept that so if you want them to follow orders try it with Conversation not forcing cause you have superpowers yes I know she has not done this yes but just wanting to keep that in mind is all

Edited April 27, 2018 by Froippi

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 4/21/2018 at 3:04 PM, VCRTracking said:

Were FitzSimmons being selfish there? Yeah but I get it. The world wasn't in imminent danger and they couldn't risk the other based on what might happen. It puts them on a slightly bad light but they were at least honest. It's not like a scenario where they promise to put the world before themselves then at the last moment one of them decides they couldn't sacrifice the other. 

Just once, I would like to see people in genre shows do the math and be like, "Well, if I don't help you, you'll torture and kill me and my loved one. If I help you, billions will die. Also, you will probably kill us afterwards anyway because you're evil like that, and I still pose a threat to undo what I've done. I think I won't help you."

[Gothish520]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Just once, I would like to see people in genre shows do the math and be like, "Well, if I don't help you, you'll torture and kill me and my loved one. If I help you, billions will die. Also, you will probably kill us afterwards anyway because you're evil like that, and I still pose a threat to undo what I've done. I think I won't help you."

Self-preservation is a powerful motivator. 

[Lobsel Vith]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 10:05 AM, Froippi said:

If Daisy had follow Fitz intel instead of being so dam worry about Coulson it would of never gotten that bad either so you have two different ways of looking at it i’m Still convinced going after coulson accomplished nothing not to mention you had a Hydra spy put into the base after rescuing Coulson 

If Fitz hadn't nearly killed the entire team and tortured Daisy, he wouldn't have been locked in a cell, and Daisy wouldn't have been worried that he would have endangered the lives of everyone on the base. The fault for Daisy being wary of Fitz going full Ward is Fitz - no one else. Not Daisy, not Mack, not Yo-yo - just Fitz.

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:27 PM, Raja said:

Well Mac had the only good Framework experience among the group 

Mack lost Hope for a second time. That's going to color whatever good memories he shared with her in the Framework.

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:14 PM, Froippi said:

by the way Ruby would of gotten infused regardless if FitzSimmons was their or not so to really blame them i’m Not sure is fair she gets infused either way now if YoYo not their the outcome is different though 

Except that presumes the Superior and his LMD army would have simply stepped aside for Ruby, and that's highly unlikely.

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:02 AM, Froippi said:

At this point I feel Shield was gone the moment Daisy was given leadership and on top of that not everyone is willing to take orders from Daisy as much as people want to believe it as far as FitzSimmons actions go that You have no real evidence that is what causes it just speculation 

Fitz & Simmons screwing things up isn't speculation - it's what happened on the show.

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:02 AM, Froippi said:

For the record quaking people to make them follow your orders is not my definition of leadership either so if she goes down this road I won't accept that so if you want them to follow orders try it with Conversation not forcing cause you have superpowers yes I know she has not done this yes but just wanting to keep that in mind is all

Daisy quaked Fitz because he tortured her. And it was less painful than the agonizing pain she went through. And this is the second time Fitz tortured Daisy (and the second time the show pretty much handwaved his actions).

[Froippi]

39 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

If Fitz hadn't nearly killed the entire team and tortured Daisy, he wouldn't have been locked in a cell, and Daisy wouldn't have been worried that he would have endangered the lives of everyone on the base. The fault for Daisy being wary of Fitz going full Ward is Fitz - no one else. Not Daisy, not Mack, not Yo-yo - just Fitz.

Mack lost Hope for a second time. That's going to color whatever good memories he shared with her in the Framework.

Except that presumes the Superior and his LMD army would have simply stepped aside for Ruby, and that's highly unlikely.

Fitz & Simmons screwing things up isn't speculation - it's what happened on the show.

Daisy quaked Fitz because he tortured her. And it was less painful than the agonizing pain she went through. And this is the second time Fitz tortured Daisy (and the second time the show pretty much handwaved his actions).

I wasn’t referring to that when I said what I said it I was talking about in general can’t really lock people up when shield has no real authority anyways and besides we could lock every Shield Agent up for betrayal their spy’s they do questionable things all the time

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Gothish520]

Quote

I wasn’t referring to that when I said what I said it I was talking about in general can’t really lock people up when shield has no real authority anyways and besides we could lock every Shield Agent up for betrayal their spy’s they do questionable things all the time

@Froippi, I agree, and I'm glad it was pointed out on the show as well. At this point SHIELD is a band of rogues just trying to figure things out. With something as catastrophic as The End of the World, people are bound to start getting selfish and maybe a little sloppy. It's not a good situation and mistakes are being made, but I sure find it interesting. One thing's for sure -  have no idea how this is going to play out. And I still have to give kudos to the show for being able to surprise me.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Gothish520

[Gothish520]

Just now, TVSpectator said:

What he did was torture though and not calling it torture just leads to the idea of handwaving away, in my opinion. Call what Fitz did to Daisy torture because that is what it is. 

Fitz did what he did. It can't be undone. There is and will continue to be fallout from it, I'm sure. But constantly pointing it out to those of us who don't hate Fitz over it solves nothing. People can scream "Fitz tortured Daisy!" in my face all they want - I have formed my own opinion, and will sit back and see how this all plays out. 

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, Gothish520 said:

Fitz did what he did. It can't be undone. There is and will continue to be fallout from it, I'm sure. But constantly pointing it out to those of us who don't hate Fitz over it solves nothing. People can scream "Fitz tortured Daisy!" in my face all they want - I have formed my own opinion, and will sit back and see how this all plays out. 

Oh, so you are fine with Fitz torturing Daisy? As with the fallout on the show, no there hasn't been any real fallout. Just Daisy being mad at Fitz but at the same time everyone else is like, "whatever". Then Daisy locked up Fitz and then Simmons and Yo-Yo broke him out like he was wrongly imprisoned or something. In my opinion, the show has gone off the rails because they are not, IMO, not committed to actually portraying anything that shows consequences. 

[Froippi]

5 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Oh, so you are fine with Fitz torturing Daisy? As with the fallout on the show, no there hasn't been any real fallout. Just Daisy being mad at Fitz but at the same time everyone else is like, "whatever". Then Daisy locked up Fitz and then Simmons and Yo-Yo broke him out like he was wrongly imprisoned or something. In my opinion, the show has gone off the rails because they are not, IMO, not committed to actually portraying anything that shows consequences. 

don’t think he said he was fine with it seems he accepted what happen and move on and I know you want consequences but we know this show doesn’t do consequences very well

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Gothish520]

3 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Oh, so you are fine with Fitz torturing Daisy? As with the fallout on the show, no there hasn't been any real fallout. Just Daisy being mad at Fitz but at the same time everyone else is like, "whatever". Then Daisy locked up Fitz and then Simmons and Yo-Yo broke him out like he was wrongly imprisoned or something. In my opinion, the show has gone off the rails because they are not, IMO, not committed to actually portraying anything that shows consequences. 

I'm inclined to give everyone a pass right now because they are dealing with some crazy shyte and really don't have time for deep conversations over things. But I do agree that serious discussions about everything that has transpired are in order - and if done properly the show could really milk some great personal drama out of them.

[TVSpectator]

3 minutes ago, Froippi said:

don’t think he said he was fine with it seems he accepted what happen and move on and I know you want consequences but we know this show doesn’t do consequences very well

 

1 minute ago, Gothish520 said:

I'm inclined to give everyone a pass right now because they are dealing with some crazy shyte and really don't have time for deep conversations over things. But I do agree that serious discussions about everything that has transpired are in order - and if done properly the show could really milk some great personal drama out of them.

But when people go, "oh, that isn't bad because of reasons...." then it's just handwaving it away. 

[Gothish520]

2 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

 

But when people go, "oh, that isn't bad because of reasons...." then it's just handwaving it away. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would not say what Fitz did wasn't bad, it was just necessary, IMO. Sometimes what's necessary isn't always good. That's the way I see it now - maybe down the road, things will be different. I fully expect Fitz to suffer for what has happened - if any of them ever get a chance to breathe again. 

[Lobsel Vith]

35 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would not say what Fitz did wasn't bad, it was just necessary, IMO. Sometimes what's necessary isn't always good. That's the way I see it now - maybe down the road, things will be different. I fully expect Fitz to suffer for what has happened - if any of them ever get a chance to breathe again. 

I'd say it was bad and unnecessary. Rather than stage some elaborate plan that endangered the lives of everyone on the base, Fitz could have spoken to Daisy. He could have talked to her about the rift, about the possible danger, and he could have easily persuaded her. Instead of building dangerous robots, he could have acquired pain medication. That people are acting like Fitz couldn't have gone about things any other way is part of the problem - what he did was wrong, and it's a lot more egregious than things that other characters have done.

[Froippi]

18 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I'd say it was bad and unnecessary. Rather than stage some elaborate plan that endangered the lives of everyone on the base, Fitz could have spoken to Daisy. He could have talked to her about the rift, about the possible danger, and he could have easily persuaded her. Instead of building dangerous robots, he could have acquired pain medication. That people are acting like Fitz couldn't have gone about things any other way is part of the problem - what he did was wrong, and it's a lot more egregious than things that other characters have done.

Again you keep saying this but it’s been very clear that Daisy did not want her powers back so since that was not option what else could he have done ? and i’m Not saying I agree either I just want to see people give other options besides the obvious 

[Lobsel Vith]

20 minutes ago, Froippi said:

Again you keep saying this but it’s been very clear that Daisy did not want her powers back so since that was not option what else could he have done ?

No, talking to her was an option, but it was one he discarded completely, similar to when he refused to even consult her about his plan to recklessly jump into the portal to Maveth to try and find Simmons, which put Daisy's life at risk when she had to keep the portal open longer than she was anticipating. And given how Daisy has continually shown a willingness to risk her life for others, even at the expense of her own life, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't be persuaded. 

21 minutes ago, Froippi said:

and i’m Not saying I agree either I just want to see people give other options besides the obvious 

I think the fact that it's Fitz who did it colors how people look at what happened, and it's why some people refuse to hold him accountable or judge him.

[Froippi]

7 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

No, talking to her was an option, but it was one he discarded completely, similar to when he refused to even consult her about his plan to recklessly jump into the portal to Maveth to try and find Simmons, which put Daisy's life at risk when she had to keep the portal open longer than she was anticipating. And given how Daisy has continually shown a willingness to risk her life for others, even at the expense of her own life, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't be persuaded. 

I think the fact that it's Fitz who did it colors how people look at what happened, and it's why some people refuse to hold him accountable or judge him.

How is talking to her a option when you know what the answer is going to be made it clear before Coulson drag her back from the future but hey if you want discuss something with someone when you know it won’t get you anywhere go ahead it’s like people forget it’s a spy organization and two if I remember correctly weren’t people wanting some type of fallout from the Framework so from that perspective you got what you wanted 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Lobsel Vith]

7 minutes ago, Froippi said:

How is talking to her a option when you know what the answer is going to be made it clear before Coulson drag her back from the future 

And how do you know that Daisy couldn't be persuaded to have the inhibitor removed? In exactly five seasons of screentime, what exactly makes you think Daisy wouldn't have chosen a path that could have saved lives?

[Froippi]

4 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

And how do you know that Daisy couldn't be persuaded to have the inhibitor removed? In exactly five seasons of screentime, what exactly makes you think Daisy wouldn't have chosen a path that could have saved lives?

How do you seem convince you can persuade her 

 

the fact that that she was willing to let Ruby live regardless how uncontrollable that gravitonium was even though YOYo made the right decision she only had 8% but she could have destroy who knows what with how uncontrollable it was plus they know almost nothing about Gravitonium 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Lobsel Vith]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

How do you seem convince you can persuade her 

Five years of the character continually showing a willingness to help people, even if it meant she could die (she was willing to give up her life to initially deal with the rift in the 100th episode, and she was also willing to stay in the future if it meant that she couldn't endanger anyone when she thought she was the Destroyer of Worlds).