S07.E11: All In

[Pallas]

You're right, of course. That's why Paley sent his Chief -- whose name is apparently Janet Bayne -- to find Russian experts still living with their Babushkas.

Is it possible the Russians leaked the information to Bayne? The visiting Americans would have had to provide a list of their delegration to the Russians. In the first scene, as the American team disembarks, the Russian general watching on monitor with Yevgeny identifies each on sight. No surprises. So that list could have made its way back to Bayne, if she's in on the plot. And if Paley can't bring himself to ask where she got it. 

[slowpoked]

46 minutes ago, Pallas said:

You're right, of course. That's why Paley sent his Chief -- whose name is apparently Janet Bayne -- to find Russian experts still living with their Babushkas.

Is it possible the Russians leaked the information to Bayne? The visiting Americans would have had to provide a list of their delegration to the Russians. In the first scene, as the American team disembarks, the Russian general watching on monitor with Yevgeny identifies each on sight. No surprises. So that list could have made its way back to Bayne, if she's in on the plot. And if Paley can't bring himself to ask where she got it. 

Good point about the Russians possibly leaking the information to Bayne. I didn't think about that part, that Russia would know who the passengers were, and therefore can leak that information to their "allies" in the US. I wonder if Bayne is in on the plot, and that's how the Russians got to making Paley their Useful Idiot. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by slowpoked

[Pallas]

2 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

I wonder if Bayne is in on the plot, and that's how the Russians got to making Paley their Useful Idiot. 

That sounds very reasonable. Also, Bayne may have another reason to have wanted the plan to blow up. So far, no one has identified her as an agent. But if Simone were returned to the U.S., she might do so. Simone's future would depend on giving Saul what he wants to know. 

[Son of Saul]

On 4/23/2018 at 1:43 PM, scrb said:

Yeah that was the most preposterous episode I've seen.

First of all, that Keane would okay this mission.  On the surface, the National Security Advisor goes to Moscow to complain that Russians did mean things?

Secondly, so Clint caves that easily.  The woman is trying to bring down the Keane administration and she threatens to go to Keane's Attorney General?  Why would the AG help Paley, who can only call hearings.  He's got no particular pull with the AG.

Third, what Paley's chief of staff did is treason, since the show would have us believe that Keane sanctioned the mission.  In the Cold War days, US intelligence watched the Soviet embassy around the clock.  But she's going to walk up to the Russian ambassador right out in front and blab everything?

Meanwhile the Russian intelligence know Saul, Carrie and pretty much everyone on the plane but they let these men walk in with all those weapons?  And they can run a covert operation in the hotel room with a dumb mosquito net?

They were going to "surprise" the Russians and exfiltrate her out of Russia?

And then when the original plan breaks down, they could bait a Russian general into attacking their intelligence headquarters?  How do they get his money, hackers?  So Saul sanctioned a crime?  To confiscate $300 million from US banks like that takes an act of Congress.  So of course it was illegal but if it was that easy, banks would be losing millions or billions all the time.

Now that the Russian general is going to hand deliver Simone, since he wants his money back, why would Carrie rush in there to try to grab her first?  That makes no sense either.  I can see notOleg killing her, to protect his operation.  But surely the general was going to try to get her first.

I guess in the finale they want to set up a showdown between Carrie and notOleg.  What Hollywood tripe.

 

If they want to try to associate the plot with some geopolitical happenings, they have to make it plausible, yet they have so many instances of implausible actions that none of it resembles the real world,

OK, if Jason Bourne causes chaos in Morocco, the fallout isn't going to be that great.  If Carrie and her band is going to cause chaos in Russia, under the cover of an operation that the president of the US authorized, there's going to be HUGE fallout.

That's why you can't believe any of it.

You missed the best one.

That there were 1,000 russian swat team members looking for the woman yet they can throw a wig on her and walk out without being stopped by anyone. 

[millennium]

Oh that Paley.  What a worm.

[Ottis]

Finally. Finally! Carrie and the team do something clever, and disguise others to resemble Carrie and Simone as they flee the building. Up until then it was a continuing series of, "Really? Not even Saul thought of that?" Starting with why Saul's team wouldn't have been prepped  in advance on what to do if anyone showed up to squeeze them (way to cave, Clint).

Bayne is either the most obnoxious, pushy chief of staff in history, or she is in on it with the Russians.

The Russian general's behavior was  ... odd. Yes, he was positioned as a bit of a hot head, I get it. But sending 30 masked, armed agents to attack a fellow Russian agency's HQ, and doing so by dragging everyone out of the building? Even if you give him the 30 armed thugs, and assume he doesn't give a crap about politics OR what the world sees, there were better ways to accomplish his goal - starting with being less visible so as not to tip off Simone and her boyfriend.

And really, as much as I want to suspend disbelief, having an American special forces team conduct a relatively obvious black op on Russian soil ... the Russians would have gone nuts. 

Also, I still don't care if Keane resigns. I realize this is about more than Keane, and is positioned as an attack on US democracy. But the show made a strategic error by not making Keane someone we would root for. Even with the Russian interference, you're left shrugging and saying, 'Well, maybe the VP would be better as president, anyway."

Still, this was probably the best episode of what has been a very uninteresting season.

8 hours ago, Son of Saul said:

You missed the best one.

That there were 1,000 russian swat team members looking for the woman yet they can throw a wig on her and walk out without being stopped by anyone.

In that chaos? Not that hard to hand wave. Throw me a bone, man.

[Pike Ludwell]

I wonder if so many's dislike of Keane is based on existant feelings about the 2016 candidate. Keane was a kidnapping victim and nearly killed and a victim of an effort to overthrow the gov't by people she never would have suspected were all that evil. So she imprisoned a couple hundred people after that till things got sorted out. Maybe she went overboard with that, but it is at least understandable why she did it. Yes, they have her as a rather uncharismatic unexciting uninteresting character. But the idiots in the show who are opposing her are either ignoramuses or traitors. I would put the veep in the former category (disloyally rejecting the judgment of the woman who appointed him insofar as her accurate statements that the Russians were behind this, when she was in a better position to know than him or the cabinet members; referring to the referral to congress portion of the 25th amendment process as sending it for "ratification"?)  I have zero problem viewing the prez here as the "good guy" and hoping she wins and screws over the veep and the disloyal cabinet and all who opposed her.

Edited April 26, 2018 by riverclown

[scrb]

I don't think this is the first time Carrie has done wigs right?  Or did she color her hair dark?

But yeah they featured her looking elegant in exotic locals like wearing the head covering elegantly in Middle Eastern countries.

It's nice to know that spies prioritize fashion but whatever.

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, riverclown said:

I have zero problem viewing the prez here as the "good guy" and hoping she wins and screws over the veep and the disloyal cabinet and all who opposed her.

I'm with you. I think the show means us to be on her side and for the most part I think her depiction has earned that. I mean, come on--for all her flaws, is anyone's "gut" really saying "Yeah, Vice President Warner, show her who's boss!"?

[Son of Saul]

13 hours ago, Ottis said:

Finally. Finally! Carrie and the team do something clever, and disguise others to resemble Carrie and Simone as they flee the building. Up until then it was a continuing series of, "Really? Not even Saul thought of that?" Starting with why Saul's team wouldn't have been prepped  in advance on what to do if anyone showed up to squeeze them (way to cave, Clint).

Bayne is either the most obnoxious, pushy chief of staff in history, or she is in on it with the Russians.

The Russian general's behavior was  ... odd. Yes, he was positioned as a bit of a hot head, I get it. But sending 30 masked, armed agents to attack a fellow Russian agency's HQ, and doing so by dragging everyone out of the building? Even if you give him the 30 armed thugs, and assume he doesn't give a crap about politics OR what the world sees, there were better ways to accomplish his goal - starting with being less visible so as not to tip off Simone and her boyfriend.

And really, as much as I want to suspend disbelief, having an American special forces team conduct a relatively obvious black op on Russian soil ... the Russians would have gone nuts. 

Also, I still don't care if Keane resigns. I realize this is about more than Keane, and is positioned as an attack on US democracy. But the show made a strategic error by not making Keane someone we would root for. Even with the Russian interference, you're left shrugging and saying, 'Well, maybe the VP would be better as president, anyway."

Still, this was probably the best episode of what has been a very uninteresting season.

In that chaos? Not that hard to hand wave. Throw me a bone, man.

Lol. Ok. I actually really enjoyed the episode. Back to doing what they do best. By far the best of the series. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Why did Wellington just stand there and say nothing when Keane got "fired"? And then he didn't even walk out with her. I'm still wondering whether he was truly her ally.

Ditto comments upthread, this is the first episode in quite a while that kept me on the edge of my seat.

[Ottis]

On 4/26/2018 at 3:46 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I'm with you. I think the show means us to be on her side and for the most part I think her depiction has earned that. I mean, come on--for all her flaws, is anyone's "gut" really saying "Yeah, Vice President Warner, show her who's boss!"?

(Raises hand). I do not see in any way how Keane is sympathetic. What has she done that is any better than Warner? Given Warner just showed up, I mean. 

[Pike Ludwell]

15 minutes ago, Ottis said:

(Raises hand). I do not see in any way how Keane is sympathetic. What has she done that is any better than Warner? Given Warner just showed up, I mean. 

For the reasons stated above, strong dislike of Keane is irrational.  The things she did after the coup attempt and assassination attempt can be justified, and can be understandable. The veep on the other hand showed himself to be a disloyal, error prone ignoramus.

Edited April 28, 2018 by riverclown

[Pallas]

Quote

I do not see in any way how Keane is sympathetic.

 

She is the duly-elected President of the United States. And she has made the right enemies.

Past that, she has inner strength and convictions. She lost her only child to a war she opposed. As President-Elect and President, she has resisted the ultimately treasonous hostility to her on the part of respected military and intelligence chiefs, including her own kidnapping and a nearly-successful assassination that blew up her most trusted aide. She is confronting an invasion from abroad: the first in more than 200 years. She is seeking to face down the manipulation of the public she serves, the government and her administration by a foreign power. She is alone. She has asked for the support of her Cabinet and Vice President but refused to throw herself at their mercy. Instead, she chose to play out the few cards she held -- and when she found herself over-matched by events, abided by reality. 

[Ottis]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

 

She is the duly-elected President of the United States. And she has made the right enemies.

Past that, she has inner strength and convictions. She lost her only child to a war effort she has come to oppose. As President-Elect and President, she has resisted the manipulative and ultimately treasonous hostility to her on the part of respected military and intelligence chiefs, including her own kidnapping and a nearly-successful assassination that blew up her most trusted aide. She is confronting an invasion from abroad: only the second such in U.S. history, the first more than 200 years ago. She is seeking to face down the manipulation of the public she serves, the government and her administration by a foreign power. She is alone. She has asked for the support of her Cabinet and Vice President but refused to throw herself at their mercy. Instead, she chose to play out the few cards she held -- and when she found herself over-matched by events, abided by reality. 

That’s one view, I suppose. She also  ordered the mass arrest of 200 people out of general suspicion, including at least some who were loyal, fired the exact cabinet members needed to sign an order relieving her of her office and through this entire season has done a piss poor job of picking allies and creating consensus. And I haven’t even tried to think hard about the season. She has mostly stayed in the Oval Office and acted like an embattled tyrant. 

[Pike Ludwell]

14 hours ago, Ottis said:

That’s one view, I suppose. She also  ordered the mass arrest of 200 people out of general suspicion, including at least some who were loyal, fired the exact cabinet members needed to sign an order relieving her of her office and through this entire season has done a piss poor job of picking allies and creating consensus. And I haven’t even tried to think hard about the season. She has mostly stayed in the Oval Office and acted like an embattled tyrant. 

The people in that fictional society seem so divided, I'm not sure what she could have done. LOL They are at the point where there was a  presidential kidnapping, a coup attempt and assassination attempt, for Pete's sake, and no huge sympathy backlash. Tough crowd.  She did make a unity effort when she went to the home of the widow of the deceased FBI agent to get her to attend the memorial. That was an extraordinary effort and it worked. The cabinet members were legitimately fired because they, dangerously, believed an erroneous narrative and acted on that belief. If a President learns a group of cabinet members believe the world is flat, she can legitimately fire them en masse when she learns of it. If the Supreme Court by a 5/4 vote determines that was unlawful, that just tells you it is a goofball court. Even if, worst case, she is not doing well bringing everyone together, that is no reason to support her opponents who either (1) firmly, dangerously, believe erroneous things; or (2) are traitors.

[Pallas]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:06 AM, riverclown said:

They are at the point where there was a  presidential kidnapping, a coup attempt and assassination attempt, for Pete's sake, and no huge sympathy backlash. Tough crowd.

Very true! Now Keane -- as character and President -- was at an immense disadvantage, because her writers and she felt that she must at all costs avoid the image of a damsel in distress. And she also had no First Lady or (surviving) child to play that role and rouse even unwilling sympathy that accrued to her.

It seems that Keane had refused to promise to play tough guy overseas, in order to be elected Commander in Chief. And got elected anyway. But when a security threat arose much closer to home -- in fact, aimed directly at her -- she doubled down on the tough guy stuff. Tough does not equal strong, and her manipulation of Carrie and arrest of the 200 was neither strong nor essential. As a character, she had other options. The writers, not so much. 

I'm wondering if there's a missing scene that shows us Yevgeny using an American contact to bankroll O'Keefe: his life on the run, that is. More of a link between the season's two halves. Then again, that might make the message too simplistic: blame the Russians. America is fractured and deaf in one ear (left or right, depending how you're facing)? Blame the Russians. America has bi-polar disorder? Blame the Russians. Put a Russian in a U.S. hospital with a smartphone or a pillow, and what chance do we have, as a nation?

[TheRabbi]

On 4/23/2018 at 12:58 AM, TrininisaScorp said:

You know what?  I enjoyed it.   I'm glad I had about 1.5 hrs between this show and Westworld b/c Westworld was sublime and I needed to cleanse my palate before Homeland (or any show).    

I loved the series of events in this one and the cool action sequence re: getting Simone.  After all of Ls this season, it is nice to see the start of a win.  Let's see how it plays out!

I get that it was totally preposterous, but it was fun, silly, dramatic TV and I really liked it. 1 more episode! 

That's where I'm at. I binged the whole season this week to be ready in time for the finale, and I really loathed the beginning of this season, with the annoying radio host guy barricading himself in the house with all the rednecks.

But the past couple episodes have been pretty good. I absolutely handwave a number of scenes, the computer guy in mom's basement, and Max having the floorplans being the major ones this episode, but otherwise I found it rather riveting and am excited for the finale. 

[John Potts]

Well, after this they'll be calling Senator Paley "Senator Weathervane" - is that his third flip in three episodes? If you want o be President, you really need to not change your mind after anyone talks to you.

I may not be a military planner, but I was reminded of a line from a Roleplaying game: "We'll advance across the minefield under cover of daylight!" Haven't these guys heard of spy cams? Camouflage? Night? Granted, they would probably still fail (given they'd been set up), but it would look a bit less amateurish.

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:18 AM, parandroid said:

the thing that had me grinding my teeth the most was Carrie's Mission Impossible actions on the balcony. Urgh. Can it get any worse than this?

What had me annoyed more than anything there was she took off her balaclava. Now I know from experience that wearing a balaclava is itchy and uncomfortable, but what's also uncomfortable is being shot. Pretty sure none of the GRU/SVR agents have long blond hair, it really gives you away!

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:24 PM, slowpoked said:

Is Paley's COS just a power hungry person, or is she on some conspiracy as well? What did she mean by "this is better for both you and me"?

I was wondering that, too.

On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:46 PM, Lady Iris said:

Would Yevgeny have eventually turned on Simone? I wonder if we'll find out.

Everything we've seen suggests loyal to Russia. He may care about Simone, even love her, but if the mission required it, he would kill her (which is what it looked like he intended to do at the end).

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:42 PM, WaltersHair said:

I'll go only so far, but the Boy Child Computer Nerd in his mother's basement hasn't been true since it was floated back in the 90's (I was there). I've heard it might be true now as millennials can't afford to live on their own or won't. 

It was even worse than that. This guy was a computer need that was so nerdy that when an attractive woman knocks on the door and asks to see him, his mother is so surprised that she lets the woman in the house without even asking who she is (or asking the nerd if he is expecting someone).

On 4/28/2018 at 8:03 PM, Ottis said:

That’s one view, I suppose. She also  ordered the mass arrest of 200 people out of general suspicion, including at least some who were loyal, fired the exact cabinet members needed to sign an order relieving her of her office and through this entire season has done a piss poor job of picking allies and creating consensus. 

The problem I had with the arrests is they haven't even tried to give a convincing argument that the 200 were entirely innocent. I am not a lawyer but I am not even sure that Saul didn't break the law last year. He seemed to be working with Dar a lot and seemed to know that guy was up to something. So how much did he know and why didn't he try to stop it?