S05.E15: Rise and Shine

[Lady Calypso]

50 minutes ago, kitlee625 said:

Agree with this. There should be some kind of fallout from Fitz going all Evil Fitz back there, but I doubt the show will go that way. Already the writers are moving back towards Good Guy Fitz, with everyone (aside from Daisy) defending him last episode. I see it as similar to Deke, where he's done a lot of bad stuff back at the Lighthouse, but now that he's a FitzSimmons descendant and part of the gang, he's a Good Guy. Does anyone else also think that his characterization changed a lot over these past episodes? Obviously he's got the fish out of water thing going on, but he seems a lot goofier and dorkier these past few episodes.

 

I think Deke's redeeming moment was when he sacrificed himself at the end of the Space Arc. I think that was supposed to be his turning point though, yeah, it was a little too convenient. I do agree that he's gotten dorkier the past few episodes, and I think it's more than him appearing on Earth and it being so new for him, but also because they needed to plant the Fitzsimmons seeds. They really should have been doing that much earlier. For me, Deke is a little easier to understand his actions because of the world he grew up in, and how much different it is than ours. Hell, if I grew to like Raina after everything she's done, I'm ok with liking Deke. I just don't want his actions to be completely wiped away. 

That's why I need there to be more fallout from Fitz's actions. This is the worst thing an agent has done on this show by far, and the fact that Fitz doesn't show remorse for what he's done shows that he has a long way to go in order to be redeemed. I need characters to actually call him out, more than Daisy, but this show seems to go far, but not far enough. They won't turn their main characters completely evil. Hell, even Ward got stuck on the show for multiple seasons, even after being shown as a bad guy, and then brought back for season 4 because the show liked the actor and wanted him to play a more neutral role. They won't ever go further than this with Fitz, unfortunately. I think the show really misstepped with this move, because they can't follow through. They should, but they won't. 

[Sandman]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

This is the worst thing an agent has done on this show by far, and the fact that Fitz doesn't show remorse for what he's done shows that he has a long way to go in order to be redeemed.

Oddly enough he seemed more remorseful in the previous episode than in this one; either he's decided that he is beyond redemption and therefore won't seek it, or the pragmatic aspect of his decision is all he's focusing on. For him to tell Daisy "I don't need your forgiveness, I just need you to trust me" seems goal-focused almost to the point of mania, not to mention unrealistic. Are we meant to think that he's integrated the Leopold persona more, or he just ran out of fucks to give? Either way it seems a massive change from last week.

[Raja]

19 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Deke's redeeming moment was when he sacrificed himself at the end of the Space Arc. I think that was supposed to be his turning point though, yeah, it was a little too convenient. I do agree that he's gotten dorkier the past few episodes, and I think it's more than him appearing on Earth and it being so new for him, but also because they needed to plant the Fitzsimmons seeds. They really should have been doing that much earlier. For me, Deke is a little easier to understand his actions because of the world he grew up in, and how much different it is than ours. Hell, if I grew to like Raina after everything she's done, I'm ok with liking Deke. I just don't want his actions to be completely wiped away. 

That's why I need there to be more fallout from Fitz's actions. This is the worst thing an agent has done on this show by far, and the fact that Fitz doesn't show remorse for what he's done shows that he has a long way to go in order to be redeemed. I need characters to actually call him out, more than Daisy, but this show seems to go far, but not far enough. They won't turn their main characters completely evil. Hell, even Ward got stuck on the show for multiple seasons, even after being shown as a bad guy, and then brought back for season 4 because the show liked the actor and wanted him to play a more neutral role. They won't ever go further than this with Fitz, unfortunately. I think the show really misstepped with this move, because they can't follow through. They should, but they won't. 

Well so far we have seen Fitz's wife and his fellow Framework Hydra Agent May dealing with him. Just like Leopold she is just working an asset, a super-villain, in this case to get on with the immediate mission. At the breakneck speed that SHIELD has been moving at since Daisy and Ghost Rider has been brought in there has been no time for therapy to be shown and with the alien threat coming I doubt we see it before the series finale.

[TVSpectator]

4 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

You mean the time she went undercover with Hydra to try and save the world from them?  Yeah, that's being a terrible friend right there (sarcasm)

Abandoning someone (especially someone that the show tries to paint as a "true love"/they belong together) as leaving them all alone and volunteering to go undercover at there most valuranable isn't romantic, IMO, and also lets not forget that that Fitz didn't know where she went.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TVSpectator

[tessaray]

I think Mack's halfhearted attempt to minimize what Fitz did was in character - he's a peacemaker, after all. And he wants every available resource on Yo-Yo's case.  But he wasn't there, so all he sees is the aftermath, that Daisy is physically okay and the rift was sealed.  I'm afraid that Coulson will have a similar reaction, especially with global crises at hand.  Which is my roundabout way of saying - I don't want them to handwave Fitz but it's looking like a distinct possibility. 

We only have 7 episodes left.  

[greekmom]

1. I don't understand how Hale doesn't believe Coulson in the time travel issue. She is brokering with aliens from another planet. Has seen some major weird ass shit but Coulson going to the future and back is a leap for her? Uh yeah whatever writers.

2. I hope Hale and darling daughter pay for breaking Talbot. I prefer alien torture. 

3. I am all meh on the whole evil Fitz/regular Fitz thing.  But kudos to Ian. The reaction about Deke was very enjoyable to watch.

Hopefully the end will be worth it.

[TVSpectator]

5 minutes ago, greekmom said:

1. I don't understand how Hale doesn't believe Coulson in the time travel issue. She is brokering with aliens from another planet. Has seen some major weird ass shit but Coulson going to the future and back is a leap for her? Uh yeah whatever writers.

1

Wasn't Hale also the one who didn't believe Fitz when he mentioned that aliens took his friends back in earlier Season 5 or was that someone else?

[greekmom]

3 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Wasn't Hale also the one who didn't believe Fitz when he mentioned that aliens took his friends back in earlier Season 5 or was that someone else?

That was Hale as well. She's pretty narrow minded huh?

Must be the reason Whitehall chose her to be a baby maker instead of "greater" things.

Which reminds me - wasn't Stark Sr. the one that came up with the machine to make Rogers into Captain America? Did Whitehall also come up with his own machine/formula? 

[kitlee625]

39 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I think Mack's halfhearted attempt to minimize what Fitz did was in character - he's a peacemaker, after all. And he wants every available resource on Yo-Yo's case.  But he wasn't there, so all he sees is the aftermath, that Daisy is physically okay and the rift was sealed.  I'm afraid that Coulson will have a similar reaction, especially with global crises at hand.  Which is my roundabout way of saying - I don't want them to handwave Fitz but it's looking like a distinct possibility.

Mack also was shot in the leg by one of Fitz's robots, so I was a little surprised to see him supporting Fitz.

 

21 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Which reminds me - wasn't Stark Sr. the one that came up with the machine to make Rogers into Captain America? Did Whitehall also come up with his own machine/formula? 

I think Stark Sr did come up with the machine, but perhaps Whitehall/Hydra stole the plans. After all, they did infiltrate SHIELD pretty deeply after WW2.

 

Which reminds me -- when we saw Robin's drawings at the start of the season, there was one with the outline of a giant person with a whole bunch of little people inside of it. Do you think it could be referencing this machine?

[Sandman]

31 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I don't understand how Hale doesn't believe Coulson in the time travel issue. She is brokering with aliens from another planet. 

Simplest explanation: She's stupid. Her go-to answer when things don't go her way is to kill. She has no other tactics that I've seen, and little apparent capacity for strategy.

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

That was Hale as well. She's pretty narrow minded huh?

Must be the reason Whitehall chose her to be a baby maker instead of "greater" things.

Which reminds me - wasn't Stark Sr. the one that came up with the machine to make Rogers into Captain America? Did Whitehall also come up with his own machine/formula? 

Okay, this isn't making much sense to me since apparently Hale is a Hydra member and a member of "The Confederacy" which is just (I guess) a Hydra branch allied with a couple of alien species (and possibly the Air Force)- so why is she having a hard time believing that aliens took the SHIELD agents? When you follow the logic of this show, IMO, it makes really no sense at all. I get that the show wants us to think that Hale is stupid (again it goes back in order that they don't have to have their characters actually think their way out- just say, "well  the bad guys are so dumb of course they got themselves killed" and/or (and I hope) Hale is just playing everyone. 

 

And this even goes back to Talbot, Malick (in the latter half of Season 3), IMO Gonzales, Mace (yeah, they surely did it to this guy- who is a legacy Marvel character), basically every member of the Watchdogs except for Blake and whatshisname (the guy that could explode and then come back),  and Rosalind too. They were apparently played as "dumb" (in my opinion) as well so the show can just prop up these shitty main characters (and I have a feeling that the writers know that they are a bunch of turds, IMO as well) because I see a pattern here.  

Edited April 2, 2018 by TVSpectator

[tennisgurl]

If I lived in the MCU, I would buy pretty much anything at this point, even as just a regular person, and not a general and member of a Hydra alien conspiracy. So much weird crap has happened in such a short amount of time, pretty much everything is on the table. Its like that scene in the first season of Jessica Jones where someone was saying that it was impossible for a person to control other people with their mind, and another character was like "Yeah, well also thought aliens were impossible until they invaded a few blocks away a few years ago" and it was like, yeah. Duh. If I was an MCU person, and someone told me that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny were outside and needed my help, I would be out the door asking if I should bring flying gear in hot second. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Okay, this isn't making much sense to me since apparently Hale is a Hydra member and a member of "The Confederacy" which is just (I guess) a Hydra branch allied with a couple of alien species (and possibly the Air Force)- so why is she having a hard time believing that aliens took the SHIELD agents? When you follow the logic of this show, IMO, it makes really no sense at all. I get that the show wants us to think that Hale is stupid (again it goes back in order that they don't have to have their characters actually think their way out- just say, "well  the bad guys are so dumb of course they got themselves killed" and/or (and I hope) Hale is just playing everyone. 

 

The Confederacy is the group of aliens in outer space who told Hale & Hydra "Nice planet. Be a shame if something happened to it." Hale is not a member of the Confederacy and is (at least on the surface) trying to team up with SHIELD to backstab the Confederacy and develop a defense using Whitehall's chamber of superdom.

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

1. I don't understand how Hale doesn't believe Coulson in the time travel issue. She is brokering with aliens from another planet. Has seen some major weird ass shit but Coulson going to the future and back is a leap for her? Uh yeah whatever writers.

Just because one fantastic sci-fi thing is true doesn't mean all things are true.

There has been tangible evidence of life on other worlds at this point in the MCU that is publicly known -- the Battle of New York, Thor, Hive, the Kree and so on and so forth.

What tangible evidence is there of time travel that is publicly known? Even expanding it to all time travel in the MCU, I think there's just two instances: Dr. Strange's standoff with Dormmamu and what Coulson and Co. just experienced.

Not to mention that the concept of time travel comes with its own freakish dilemmas and questions that make it IMO harder to believe than aliens, weird metals etc.

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

If I lived in the MCU, I would buy pretty much anything at this point, even as just a regular person, and not a general and member of a Hydra alien conspiracy. So much weird crap as happened in such a short amount of time, pretty much everything is on the table. Its like that scene in the first season of Jessica Jones where someone was saying that it was impossible for a person to control other people with their mind, and another character was like "Yeah, well also thought aliens were impossible until they invaded a few blocks away a few years ago" and it was like, yeah. Duh. If I was an MCU person, and someone told me that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny were outside and needed my help, I would be out the door asking if I should bring flying gear in hot second. 

This right here basically sums up why this show hasn't really peaked my interest in a long time. For some reason shows like Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil, and even the MCU movies have played/toyed with the idea that the general public knows about aliens and they even started to get inside some of the minds of the people (Homecoming had that brief scene where we were shown that sign that said, "Koren Church of Asgard" easter egg sign), the Netflix series (even when they try to avoid this as much as possible with offhand remarks) have at least dropped halff-assed hints that everyone is living in a new realitiy. So, why can't Hale be open to the idea that aliens took the SHIELD team?  I can see maybe the time travel but if I was living in the MCU I would probably start to believe in like everything out there. Time travelers have been part of our urban legend for decades, as well as UFOs/aliens, monsters, Bigfoot, etc... 

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The Confederacy is the group of aliens in outer space who told Hale & Hydra "Nice planet. Be a shame if something happened to it." Hale is not a member of the Confederacy and is (at least on the surface) trying to team up with SHIELD to backstab the Confederacy and develop a defense using Whitehall's chamber of superdom.

Just because one fantastic sci-fi thing is true doesn't mean all things are true.

There has been tangible evidence of life on other worlds at this point in the MCU that is publicly known -- the Battle of New York, Thor, Hive, the Kree and so on and so forth.

What tangible evidence is there of time travel that is publicly known? Even expanding it to all time travel in the MCU, I think there's just two instances: Dr. Strange's standoff with Dormmamu and what Coulson and Co. just experienced.

Not to mention that the concept of time travel comes with its own freakish dilemmas and questions that make it IMO harder to believe than aliens, weird metals etc.

2

This still doesn't explain why an Air Force general, who apparently is, (either being forced to work with or just is working with) a couple of different alien races, wouldn't even take into consideration that maybe these people were taken by aliens? Or that maybe they were involved with some kind of alien time travel because again, everything you listed above makes Coulson's story even more believable, IMO. Sure Hale probably won't take Coulson's word 100% of the time *nor should she) but overall if she is even in the slightest working with aliens (even if it may be a bit one-sided) maybe she should just you know check into it. You know the old motto, trust but verify? Also, we know that Hale can think, I mean she was the one who decided to have Deke's DNA tested with the other SHIELD agents because she knew that Deke mentioned that his mother had the same ring as Simmons'. Hell, the writers take one step forward but two steps back, because of the story, IMO. Not because of the characters' personality. Again, I would say that they are writing the characters act to fit the plot and not the plot fitting the characters, IMO. Unless this is all some kind of ruse and/or (yet again) another misdirection this show is probably going to have Hale be Coulson's throne his side and would probably be the one to jump start everything (if it's not tie-in to Thanos), IMO. 

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Deke's redeeming moment was when he sacrificed himself at the end of the Space Arc. I think that was supposed to be his turning point though, yeah, it was a little too convenient. I do agree that he's gotten dorkier the past few episodes, and I think it's more than him appearing on Earth and it being so new for him, but also because they needed to plant the Fitzsimmons seeds. They really should have been doing that much earlier. For me, Deke is a little easier to understand his actions because of the world he grew up in, and how much different it is than ours. Hell, if I grew to like Raina after everything she's done, I'm ok with liking Deke. I just don't want his actions to be completely wiped away. 

That's why I need there to be more fallout from Fitz's actions. This is the worst thing an agent has done on this show by far, and the fact that Fitz doesn't show remorse for what he's done shows that he has a long way to go in order to be redeemed. I need characters to actually call him out, more than Daisy, but this show seems to go far, but not far enough. They won't turn their main characters completely evil. Hell, even Ward got stuck on the show for multiple seasons, even after being shown as a bad guy, and then brought back for season 4 because the show liked the actor and wanted him to play a more neutral role. They won't ever go further than this with Fitz, unfortunately. I think the show really misstepped with this move, because they can't follow through. They should, but they won't. 

This is true if they don't want to completely follow through then don't do the storyline, IMO. Also, I really do hope that Deke isn't already redeemed (and will be walking away from what he did to Daisy. At this point I won't mind if Daisy just keeps him locked up as well) and that he either becomes evil, is one of the causes of the event that destroys the world, and/or he gets wiped out from existence. What partly makes this show frustrating is watching the main characters do shit like this and no one ever calls them out. Hell, if it was any other show then they would've done it because you just can't have characters cross moral lines and not expect to face the consequences of it. And that goes with a lot of their storylines as well. They keep on doing this, time-and-again but never actually show the fallout. For example, Fitz hid AIDA and he only gets some yelling but not reprimanded (in a meaningful way) this basically all leads to the LMD debacle that got almost everyone kidnaped and replaced by LMDs. Not to mentioned by the end of the Season the entire SHIELD organization (is again) destroyed, along with the Playground, and Mace is dead and Talbot is shot in the head. What the team does once they get of their VR imprisonment? They forgive Fitz and go out to eat at a dinner. WTF was that?

Edited April 2, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

This right here basically sums up why this show hasn't really peaked my interest in a long time. For some reason shows like Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil, and even the MCU movies have played/toyed with the idea that the general public knows about aliens and they even started to get inside some of the minds of the people (Homecoming had that brief scene where we were shown that sign that said, "Koren Church of Asgard" easter egg sign), the Netflix series (even when they try to avoid this as much as possible with offhand remarks) have at least dropped halff-assed hints that everyone is living in a new realitiy. So, why can't Hale be open to the idea that aliens took the SHIELD team?  I can see maybe the time travel but if I was living in the MCU I would probably start to believe in like everything out there. Time travelers have been part of our urban legend for decades, as well as UFOs/aliens, monsters, Bigfoot, etc... 

 

This still doesn't explain why an Air Force general, who apparently is, (either being forced to work with or just is working with) a couple of different alien races, wouldn't even take into consideration that maybe these people were taken by aliens? Or that maybe they were involved with some kind of alien time travel because again, everything you listed above makes Coulson's story even more believable, IMO. Sure Hale probably won't take Coulson's word 100% of the time *nor should she) but overall if she is even in the slightest working with aliens (even if it may be a bit one-sided) maybe she should just you know check into it. You know the old motto, trust but verify? Also, we know that Hale can think, I mean she was the one who decided to have Deke's DNA tested with the other SHIELD agents because she knew that Deke mentioned that his mother had the same ring as Simmons'. Hell, the writers take one step forward but two steps back, because of the story, IMO. Not because of the characters' personality. Again, I would say that they are writing the characters act to fit the plot and not the plot fitting the characters, IMO. Unless this is all some kind of ruse and/or (yet again) another misdirection this show is probably going to have Hale be Coulson's throne his side and would probably be the one to jump start everything (if it's not tie-in to Thanos), IMO. 

This is true if they don't want to completely follow through then don't do the storyline, IMO. Also, I really do hope that Deke isn't already redeemed (and will be walking away from what he did to Daisy. At this point I won't mind if Daisy just keeps him locked up as well) and that he either becomes evil, is one of the causes of the event that destroys the world, and/or he gets wiped out from existence. What partly makes this show frustrating is watching the main characters do shit like this and no one ever calls them out. Hell, if it was any other show then they would've done it because you just can't have characters cross moral lines and not expect to face the consequences of it. And that goes with a lot of their storylines as well. They keep on doing this, time-and-again but never actually show the fallout. For example, Fitz hid AIDA and he only gets some yelling but not reprimanded (in a meaningful way) this basically all leads to the LMD debacle that got almost everyone kidnaped and replaced by LMDs. Not to mentioned by the end of the Season the entire SHIELD organization (is again) destroyed, along with the Playground, and Mace is dead and Talbot is shot in the head. What the team does once they get of their VR imprisonment? They forgive Fitz and go out to eat at a dinner. WTF was that?

They were expecting to be arrested for Fitz at the end of season 4 it’s why they went to that diner cause they figure it be their last real meal before being arrested or that is how I took it 

[TVSpectator]

5 minutes ago, Froippi said:

They were expecting to be arrested for Fitz at the end of season 4 it’s why they went to that diner cause they figure it be their last real meal before being arrested or that is how I took it 

Two things, if you were expected to be arrested why go to a public diner? You are probably going to be arrested before even being servered and/or get the other people in that diner possibly killed.

[Froippi]

21 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Two things, if you were expected to be arrested why go to a public diner? You are probably going to be arrested before even being servered and/or get the other people in that diner possibly killed.

Yea you got a point Fitz wanted to take the whole blame for the situation and have them turn him over to the right authorities but Daisy wouldn’t let him for whatever messed up logic behind it and after 5x14 it’s pretty clear she should have let him do that at the end of Season 4

Edited April 3, 2018 by Froippi

[TVSpectator]

28 minutes ago, Froippi said:

Yea you got a point Fitz wanted to take the whole blame for the situation and have them turn him over to the right authorities but Daisy wouldn’t let him for whatever messed up logic behind it and after 5x14 it’s pretty clear she should have let him do that at the end of Season 4

 

Technically Fitz was in custody but Hunter broke him out. Now, though, Daisy was probably right, Fitz needs to be locked up. Sure Daisy has her share of messed up things but overall, they all should be locked up but really, Fitz and Simmons are the two that should be locked up for the protecting/hiding AIDA. Daisy can be considered a victim of the LMDs and so can Coulson, May, and Mack but Fitz and Simmons kept the secret and refused to turn in Radcliff. and Simmons also blackmailed Mace (by revealing a secret that I guess the general public still doesn't fully know and that the government may want to keep it). 

Edited April 3, 2018 by TVSpectator

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, Sandman said:

. Are we meant to think that he's integrated the Leopold persona more, or he just ran out of fucks to give? Either way it seems a massive change from last week.

Yeah, that was confusing to me too. It seemed like last week he was so tortured about what he did he basically had a psychotic break and became The Doctor because "real" Fitz couldn't handle doing what he thought in his heart needed doing. He seemed heart broken about the whole thing last week, but this week? He just seems to be just kind of going with it, like he has just gone numb. He doesn't seem to be upset by what he did, even the nastier aspects of it, it seems like he kind of merged with The Doctor, and became some kind of hybrid. Its really weird, and I dont really think I like where theyre going with Fitz now. I wanted to explore his dark side more, but this all seems like its coming so fast, its like we missed a few episodes of transitioning between Fitz sobbing hysterically last week in fear of The Doctor, to just numbly going along with being this colder version of himself. Not quite a super villain, but not really a hero either. Its just weird. 

[TVSpectator]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, that was confusing to me too. It seemed like last week he was so tortured about what he did he basically had a psychotic break and became The Doctor because "real" Fitz couldn't handle doing what he thought in his heart needed doing. He seemed heart broken about the whole thing last week, but this week? He just seems to be just kind of going with it, like he has just gone numb. He doesn't seem to be upset by what he did, even the nastier aspects of it, it seems like he kind of merged with The Doctor, and became some kind of hybrid. Its really weird, and I dont really think I like where theyre going with Fitz now. I wanted to explore his dark side more, but this all seems like its coming so fast, its like we missed a few episodes of transitioning between Fitz sobbing hysterically last week in fear of The Doctor, to just numbly going along with being this colder version of himself. Not quite a super villain, but not really a hero either. Its just weird. 

Robot bodyguards holding his wife and future grandson at gunpoint, and torturing his supposed friend, are pretty good indications of super-villainy traits, IMO. 

[tennisgurl]

7 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Robot bodyguards holding his wife and future grandson at gunpoint, and torturing his supposed friend, are pretty good indications of super-villainy traits, IMO. 

I mean, yeah, but he still seemed tortured about it, and very "its for the greater good" about everything, and even now, he says he is doing everything to save the world and help the greatest amount of people. I dont think he is supposed to have gone full on dark side yet, but its hard to tell. 

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, yeah, but he still seemed tortured about it, and very "its for the greater good" about everything, and even now, he says he is doing everything to save the world and help the greatest amount of people. I dont think he is supposed to have gone full on dark side yet, but its hard to tell. 

Is he supposed to be a misguided hero or a misguided villain?

[tennisgurl]

That might be the million dollar question @TVSpectator. 

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Robot bodyguards holding his wife and future grandson at gunpoint, and torturing his supposed friend, are pretty good indications of super-villainy traits, IMO. 

Well, to be fair, when Fitz programmed those robot bodyguards and started ripping the device out of Daisy's neck, he was The Doctor at that point, who is a pure villain. But now that Fitz has merged with that darker, evil self, he's in the weirdest transition phase. They have him as a villain but are also still kind of keeping the good traits with him. It's a very messy and complex thing they're doing with Fitz, but not in a good way. He didn't deprogram the robots after he figured out what was happening, and he still went through with the surgery on Daisy. But last episode, at least he was self aware with the awful decisions he's made but also not feeling bad for it, but also knowing that he should be feeling bad. This episode....has him pretty much accepting what he's done and being ok with it? Throwing out Daisy's betrayal of the team, he has to know that what she did does not compare to what he's done. 

It's like the show wants to give complexities and have him live in a grey area, rather than just straight out villain, but they're not doing a good job of it. Having only Daisy call him out is NOT a good look on anybody. Simmons kind of has a reason to want to believe there's good in him as they literally just got married and she also just found out about their future with Deke. Deke...well, we saw the horrified look on his face as he witnessed Fitz do his worst deeds ever, but his only scene after that was confessing to Jemma about his relationship to them. But Mack and May? Come on, no matter what Leopold was like in the Framework, at least acknowledge that what Fitz did in the real world not even two days ago was really, really shitty and it's ok to wallow in that for a few days before trying to handwave his actions away. Like, show some courtesy toward Daisy, man.

[TVSpectator]

21 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, to be fair, when Fitz programmed those robot bodyguards and started ripping the device out of Daisy's neck, he was The Doctor at that point, who is a pure villain. But now that Fitz has merged with that darker, evil self, he's in the weirdest transition phase. They have him as a villain but are also still kind of keeping the good traits with him. It's a very messy and complex thing they're doing with Fitz, but not in a good way. He didn't deprogram the robots after he figured out what was happening, and he still went through with the surgery on Daisy. But last episode, at least he was self aware with the awful decisions he's made but also not feeling bad for it, but also knowing that he should be feeling bad. This episode....has him pretty much accepting what he's done and being ok with it? Throwing out Daisy's betrayal of the team, he has to know that what she did does not compare to what he's done. 

It's like the show wants to give complexities and have him live in a grey area, rather than just straight out villain, but they're not doing a good job of it. Having only Daisy call him out is NOT a good look on anybody. Simmons kind of has a reason to want to believe there's good in him as they literally just got married and she also just found out about their future with Deke. Deke...well, we saw the horrified look on his face as he witnessed Fitz do his worst deeds ever, but his only scene after that was confessing to Jemma about his relationship to them. But Mack and May? Come on, no matter what Leopold was like in the Framework, at least acknowledge that what Fitz did in the real world not even two days ago was really, really shitty and it's ok to wallow in that for a few days before trying to handwave his actions away. Like, show some courtesy toward Daisy, man.

I really don't know about the Simmons part. What Fitz did was pretty abborhent (and that is me trying to put it lightly) but Simmons should know better than Fitz isn't safe to be around IF he can just snap (easily) into his Doctor persona and it seems that all she has been doing is just making excuses for his since Season 4. Which kind of doesn't sound like Simmons at all, to me, since we seen her in the earlier episodes willing to just let people go for the slightest of reasons or even just being on another planet. As with Mack, May, and Coulson- Daisy is part of their "team/pseudo-family" so hurting her should be something that should cause them to filp their shit (especially Coulson) over this. I mean what Fitz did was evil, was dangerous, was against Daisy's consent, etc... but there seems to be a lot of handwaving going on. Maybe the writers just don't know how to balance everything together but not even Deke should be so "cool" around Fitz for holding him at gunpoint. Sure he is his grandfather but ......

Edited April 3, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

Maybe but want to hope they bring this stuff back up with Fitz and be some backlash for what he did 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Froippi

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I really don't know about the Simmons part. What Fitz did was pretty abborhent (and that is me trying to put it lightly) but Simmons should know better than Fitz isn't safe to be around IF he can just snap (easily) into his Doctor persona and it seems that all she has been doing is just making excuses for his since Season 4. Which kind of doesn't sound like Simmons at all, to me, since we see her in the earlier episodes willing to just let people go for the slightest of reasons or even just being on another planet. As with Mack, May, and Coulson- Daisy is part of their "team/pseudo-family" so hurting her should be something that should cause them to filp their shit (especially Coulson) over this. I mean what Fitz did was evil, was dangerous, was against Daisy's consent, etc... but there seems to be a lot of handwaving going on. Maybe the writers just don't know how to balance everything together but not even Deke should be so "cool" around Fitz for holding him at gunpoint. Sure he is his grandfather but 

Oh, she for sure should know better. But her feelings are likely clouding her better judgement. Besides, since season 4, they've really gone all in with this Fitzsimmons romance, more so than the previous seasons. Not that I buy their romance, but especially with them throwing in Deke as the Fitzsimmons grandson, they're really pushing for them as a couple. So I get what they're doing there and why Simmons is in denial that her Fitz may be gone forever. 

I think it's the writers not knowing how to balance everything, for sure. They want their cake and to eat it too. They had success with Ward when they didn't try to redeem him. When Ward fans cried out for him to be good, the show didn't do that for a while and that was great. But yeah, shows can't cater to the fans in this way; it's what gets the characters so jumbled up. They can't turn Fitz completely evil because he's still a popular character. I've seen this type of thing happen with so many popular characters. Unfortunately, you can't introduce this kind of arc eight episodes before the very possible series finale. If the show had another for sure season, then they might have been able to tell this story properly. Unfortunately, they want to tell too much in so little time. 

[TVSpectator]

59 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Oh, she for sure should know better. But her feelings are likely clouding her better judgement. Besides, since season 4, they've really gone all in with this Fitzsimmons romance, more so than the previous seasons. Not that I buy their romance, but especially with them throwing in Deke as the Fitzsimmons grandson, they're really pushing for them as a couple. So I get what they're doing there and why Simmons is in denial that her Fitz may be gone forever. 

1

After being shot in the leg (and almost dying from the blood loss) in the Framework I would imagine that she would've been done with him but I guess the writers just decided that she would forget about it and just handwave it away (and a good show won't let that be passed up. For fuck sakes, she could've died but instead they wrote that she married the guy? IMO, that just gives the entire relationship that creep vibe, IMO). But instead, they are writing that she will stand by his Dr. Mengle side? Well, I would say that this is out of character for Simmons but everyone has been written out of character over the course of this show- for something. 

Quote

I think it's the writers not knowing how to balance everything, for sure. They want their cake and to eat it too. They had success with Ward when they didn't try to redeem him. When Ward fans cried out for him to be good, the show didn't do that for a while and that was great. But yeah, shows can't cater to the fans in this way; it's what gets the characters so jumbled up. They can't turn Fitz completely evil because he's still a popular character. I've seen this type of thing happen with so many popular characters. Unfortunately, you can't introduce this kind of arc eight episodes before the very possible series finale. If the show had another for sure season, then they might have been able to tell this story properly. Unfortunately, they want to tell too much in so little time. 

Well, I think you and me are both expecting that Fitz will still remain "good" and everyone is going to handwave it as well (and they all end happy as well). I mean like you said, this is possibly the last season so all of this bullshit drama which wasn't really need, is just a waste of screen time, IMO and the season is probably going to end just like Season 4 did- all are fine, Fitz/Simmions are together, Daisy is happy, etc... and they may end it with a wacky ending (like being kidnapped by aliens, etc...).

Also what is Deke's purpose/role being in the present? Fitz doesn't care and only Simmons thinks it's awesome that her grandson is going to be a slaverer and knowing that their daughter will be murdered by the Kree?

 

IMO, What they should've done from the start is to focus on this Doctor storyline once Fitz got out of the Framework, like drop hints that he wasn't who they thought he is in the Season 4 finale (like what some horror movies would do) and set up the first half of the season like that and not waste so much time in the space future Lighthouse (does anyone remember Finn? ) but instead just focus on the immediate fallout of the Framework storyline. Not only that but they can still have Hale, Ruby, all the Hydra flashbacks they want, Enoch, Robin with her prophecy (and did anyone else got an Epitaph 1 vide from this whole storyline? It's like they just reused the same storylines from Dollhouse the past two seasons), Destroy of the World, The Confederacy, etc... while also staying on budget/not running out of money not even halfway through the season, IMO.

 

As with the shippers yeah, they do get themselves in a corner trying to please them. Which is why I think that it hurts this show in a massive way and they (the writes/showrunners) do want it both ways (it has been like that since Season 1 and others have noticed and wrote about it too but I think at this point most of them just moved on to better shows). 

Edited April 3, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

One thing I hope the show doesn’t go through with is this pregnancy storyline cause it’s going to be a snooze feast storyline as far as i’m Concerned

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

This still doesn't explain why an Air Force general, who apparently is, (either being forced to work with or just is working with) a couple of different alien races, wouldn't even take into consideration that maybe these people were taken by aliens? Or that maybe they were involved with some kind of alien time travel because again, everything you listed above makes Coulson's story even more believable, IMO. Sure Hale probably won't take Coulson's word 100% of the time *nor should she) but overall if she is even in the slightest working with aliens (even if it may be a bit one-sided) maybe she should just you know check into it. You know the old motto, trust but verify? Also, we know that Hale can think, I mean she was the one who decided to have Deke's DNA tested with the other SHIELD agents because she knew that Deke mentioned that his mother had the same ring as Simmons'. Hell, the writers take one step forward but two steps back, because of the story, IMO. Not because of the characters' personality. Again, I would say that they are writing the characters act to fit the plot and not the plot fitting the characters, IMO. Unless this is all some kind of ruse and/or (yet again) another misdirection this show is probably going to have Hale be Coulson's throne his side and would probably be the one to jump start everything (if it's not tie-in to Thanos), IMO. 

I don't know if we were necessarily privy to Hale's actual beliefs. We saw what she said to Coulson in this episode and to Fitz previously. But guess what? She's a liar and a manipulator. Her doubt could have been feigned for a couple of reasons, for instance to try to get Fitz or Coulson to give up more information to prove their claims, or in the case of Fitz to maintain her cover of being a normal Air Force general who certainly hasn't met with aliens at all. 

Let's assume for discussion's sake that Hale really actually "wouldn't even take into consideration that maybe these poeple were taken by aliens," rather than playing a role of a skeptic either for interrogation purposes or for cover purposes.

I still don't think that makes her stupid. Short-sighted, sure. But she has been filled with propaganda for years to not trust people and SHIELD in particular. She has been used to lying for decades about pretty much everything. It's not unreasonable (to me, anyway) that she would project a whole bunch of her lying ways onto SHIELD agents and jump to the conclusion that they are liars too. Especially absent any tangible evidence.

[Lobsel Vith]

19 hours ago, tessaray said:

I think Mack's halfhearted attempt to minimize what Fitz did was in character - he's a peacemaker, after all. And he wants every available resource on Yo-Yo's case.  But he wasn't there, so all he sees is the aftermath, that Daisy is physically okay and the rift was sealed.

It was reminiscent of early season two, where Mack's sole purpose seemed to be to be a plot device for Fitz's story. He's lost his daughter for a second time because of AIDA and the Framework, he was seriously injured protecting Yo-yo from yet another of Fitz's robots. I think the show should have allowed him to do something other than prop Fitz to Simmons, especially when Deke already served that purpose in the previous episode. It's odd how Daisy is the one who was tortured, but Fitz is the only one receiving support.

19 hours ago, tessaray said:

I'm afraid that Coulson will have a similar reaction, especially with global crises at hand.  Which is my roundabout way of saying - I don't want them to handwave Fitz but it's looking like a distinct possibility. 

We only have 7 episodes left.  

Which is very unfortunate. Similar to Deke, he crossed a serious line, but the show isn't holding him accountable, which makes crossing that line all but pointless because there are no ramifications to that action, and given the woobification of Ward in the Framework storyline (on the backs of his victims, no less) it's becoming a trend with this show to excuse certain types of characters who do such things.

[kitlee625]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think it's the writers not knowing how to balance everything, for sure. They want their cake and to eat it too. They had success with Ward when they didn't try to redeem him. When Ward fans cried out for him to be good, the show didn't do that for a while and that was great. But yeah, shows can't cater to the fans in this way; it's what gets the characters so jumbled up. They can't turn Fitz completely evil because he's still a popular character. I've seen this type of thing happen with so many popular characters. Unfortunately, you can't introduce this kind of arc eight episodes before the very possible series finale. If the show had another for sure season, then they might have been able to tell this story properly. Unfortunately, they want to tell too much in so little time. 

 

Definitely agree with this. I think one of the biggest problems that this show has is that the writers don't seem to know what kind of a show they want it to be. Or maybe it's that the writers want to write the story one way (a lot darker than what the fans want) while simultaneously bending over backwards to cater to the fans. So the writers will start writing these complex, dark stories where the heroes do morally complex / bad things, but then they scramble to hit the reset button so they end the season with "found family eating dinner together at a diner" or "FitzSimmons is pregnant, and we know they're the best parents ever."

 

I mean, look at all the nonsense with Ward. The twist with Ward being evil was great IMHO, but then they dragged on his storyline way too long, teasing that he was going to be a good guy and that Skyeward was happening for years. Then they finally kill him in season 3, and they bring him back again in season 3 and season 4. And I felt that the season 4 version was a particularly fanservice-y version of Ward.

 

The other problem that I see is that the writers are particularly terrible at writing characters in this grey area, and that goes for both heroes and villains. It winds up being heavy handed, clunky, and just not making sense as every "grey" character gets pushed to Team Good Guys and Team Bad Guys very quickly. Now that Fitz has done these bad things, the writers can't stand to leave him in a dark/grey area, and so they're trying to push him back into Team Good Guys by having every character (aside from Daisy) supporting Fitz and advocating for his goodness (which makes no sense). It would make a lot more sense IMHO if it were more balanced, with some supporting Fitz, some seeing him as a villain, and some not sure how to see him.

[Sandman]

On 4/1/2018 at 3:19 PM, MisterGlass said:

Good work on young Sitwell - I knew instantly who that was supposed to be.

I noticed that bit of casting, too.

3 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

Now that Fitz has done these bad things, the writers can't stand to leave him in a dark/grey area, and so they're trying to push him back into Team Good Guys by having every character (aside from Daisy) supporting Fitz and advocating for his goodness (which makes no sense). It would make a lot more sense IMHO if it were more balanced, with some supporting Fitz, some seeing him as a villain, and some not sure how to see him.

I don't think every character is advocating for his goodness at all. I think Mack's lack of condemnation says more about Mack's loyalty and peace-maker nature than about Fitz; he's more focused on Elena, anyway. Simmons is in love with Fitz, and wants him to be better. But Daisy says she will never forgive him, and May flatly calls him a super-villain.

[kitlee625]

5 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I don't think every character is advocating for his goodness at all. I think Mack's lack of condemnation says more about Mack's loyalty and peace-maker nature than about Fitz; he's more focused on Elena, anyway. Simmons is in love with Fitz, and wants him to be better. But Daisy says she will never forgive him, and May flatly calls him a super-villain.

May calls him a super villain, but she also expressed understanding of his situation (being part of Hydra in the Framework and doing bad things), and advocated for letting him out. I don't think she's firmly in the "never forgive" camp like Daisy, but perhaps more in the "shades of grey" area.

[TVSpectator]

12 minutes ago, kitlee625 said:

May calls him a super villain, but she also expressed understanding of his situation (being part of Hydra in the Framework and doing bad things), and advocated for letting him out. I don't think she's firmly in the "never forgive" camp like Daisy, but perhaps more in the "shades of grey" area.

IMO May should lean towards, in the never forgive camp

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

IMO May should lean towards, in the never forgive camp

Agent May was more than Framework Hydra she was also "real life" S.H.I.E.L.D/Hydra. They did recruit from the same type even if some sleepers went to Hydra Prep as youths 

[tessaray]

So, another thing I've found interesting about the Fitz fallout is how leader-less the team is without Coulson and it's showing me that Daisy isn't ready to lead yet.  (IMO - and that's okay, she's still young.) Because the rift was a major catastrophe about to go critical and Daisy should have at least discussed getting her powers back and when and had a plan. Because if the rift wasn't enough, then what would have been?  You can't make decisions when you don't know what's real. She endangered the team and the civilian world above them by not wanting to become the Destroyer of Worlds in the future but the world was in peril now.  **

I get that it's an impossible decision but that's what we ask leaders to do. Make those decisions.  

** And yes, that's how Fitz justified it. But maybe the team's waffling about what he did reflects that they know this.  

[CaptainTightpants]

10 minutes ago, tessaray said:

So, another thing I've found interesting about the Fitz fallout is how leader-less the team is without Coulson and it's showing me that Daisy isn't ready to lead yet.

Daisy has been pretty clear that she doesn't want to lead anybody. She is only succumbing to emotional pressure from Coulson (World's second best TV dad after Keith Mars). 

She has consistently resisted any suggestion that she is the next Director of SHIELD, first passing it off as a joke and then just confused by Coulson pressing the issue. Since they all know that he is dying now, Coulson's urgency makes sense. But I think Daisy knows she isn't Director material. Even if she wasn't 25 years old and an impulsive person to begin with. With her powers they would need her to be constantly deployed on the front line, which you can't do with your leader. 

Jemma would actually be my choice for Director since she is usually rational and emotionally contained (except when Fitz turns evil apparently). And the girl is literally a certified genius, multiple PHDs and is better known in the global community than Daisy is. So she already has credibility. 

Daisy would be much better placed as an ambassador to the inhumans and as SHIELD's big gun. 

I really, really hope this isn't the last season! 

[Chaos Theory]

If I remember correctly of the group Daisy was the one outright tortured by Fitz so she has reason to take a hardline with him.  May  dabbled in vilany but ultimately chose Coulson because she always chooses Coulson in the end.  Elena spent maybe two minutes in the Framework and Mack....

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I don't think every character is advocating for his goodness at all. I think Mack's lack of condemnation says more about Mack's loyalty and peace-maker nature than about Fitz; he's more focused on Elena, anyway. Simmons is in love with Fitz, and wants him to be better.

[paigow]

On 4/1/2018 at 5:48 PM, Jack Kerouac said:

They have absolutely no authority whatsoever to hold ANYONE prisoner, nor to do anything they are actually doing.

Does that include Coulson officiating the "Marriage"? He is not Captain of a Ship...he could not get an internet licence using his real name without tripping a red flag...fake wedding...Simmons can walk away anytime...

[Sandman]

The most ridiculous aspect of this episode (even if we grant the excellence of the casting choices for the Junior Varsity Hydra members) was Hydra Prep. "Rise and shine! Remember to kill a puppy today!" I mean, honestly.

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

Does that include Coulson officiating the "Marriage"? He is not Captain of a Ship...he could not get an internet licence using his real name without tripping a red flag...fake wedding...Simmons can walk away anytime...

Was it ever explained why he "officiated" the wedding if he didn't have the authority to do so? Are they still (legally and technically speaking) engaged and nothing else but went through a ceremony they knew won't hold up in a court of law? I mean I get that its cute (in the show's way) to do it but come on, they really do have to at least just apply for a license right?

8 hours ago, Sandman said:

The most ridiculous aspect of this episode (even if we grant the excellence of the casting choices for the Junior Varsity Hydra members) was Hydra Prep. "Rise and shine! Remember to kill a puppy today!" I mean, honestly.

I know it's a trope when the bad guys kill dogs but yeah, they didn't kind of stole it from Kingsmen, IMO (Kingsmen is probably not the first to do that "loyalty test" either but still it was, IMO, a rip-off). 

9 hours ago, Raja said:

Agent May was more than Framework Hydra she was also "real life" S.H.I.E.L.D/Hydra. They did recruit from the same type even if some sleepers went to Hydra Prep as youths 

Oh, so May is willing to just forget that Fitz literally tortured one of their "team members" (and remember they are all supposed to be "Family" so this all reeks of, handwaving it away), IMO? Hydra member (whether in the Framework or in the actual MCU) or not doesn't really excuse this, IMO. This isn't someone else this is supposed to be someone that has been a member of the team since, the start of everything and it just reeks, IMO, of it being handwave, etc... Same with Deke selling Daisy into slavery, that was handwaved, because of reasons, I guess too. The character of Fitz crossed a moral line and now it's time that the actually acted like he did and not try to have everyone forget about. Honestly, if this is the last season I would just like to see the actual fallout from this, for once and have the show not try to get Fitz out of trouble (either by handwaving it away and/or have the other characters cover his ass, letting him escape, etc....). 

9 hours ago, tessaray said:

So, another thing I've found interesting about the Fitz fallout is how leader-less the team is without Coulson and it's showing me that Daisy isn't ready to lead yet.  (IMO - and that's okay, she's still young.) Because the rift was a major catastrophe about to go critical and Daisy should have at least discussed getting her powers back and when and had a plan. Because if the rift wasn't enough, then what would have been?  You can't make decisions when you don't know what's real. She endangered the team and the civilian world above them by not wanting to become the Destroyer of Worlds in the future but the world was in peril now.  **

I get that it's an impossible decision but that's what we ask leaders to do. Make those decisions.  

** And yes, that's how Fitz justified it. But maybe the team's waffling about what he did reflects that they know this.  

 

9 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Daisy has been pretty clear that she doesn't want to lead anybody. She is only succumbing to emotional pressure from Coulson (World's second best TV dad after Keith Mars). 

She has consistently resisted any suggestion that she is the next Director of SHIELD, first passing it off as a joke and then just confused by Coulson pressing the issue. Since they all know that he is dying now, Coulson's urgency makes sense. But I think Daisy knows she isn't Director material. Even if she wasn't 25 years old and an impulsive person to begin with. With her powers they would need her to be constantly deployed on the front line, which you can't do with your leader. 

Jemma would actually be my choice for Director since she is usually rational and emotionally contained (except when Fitz turns evil apparently). And the girl is literally a certified genius, multiple PHDs and is better known in the global community than Daisy is. So she already has credibility. 

Daisy would be much better placed as an ambassador to the inhumans and as SHIELD's big gun. 

I really, really hope this isn't the last season! 

The show has been hinting at this conclusion of Daisy leading either the Inhumans and/or SHIELD since Season 2 (does anyone remember Raina's prediction that Daisy will, "become their leader"? and all of Raina's predictions have (and do) come true?

 

Also, Daisy is supposed to be pushing 30 right now because of what Cal said (unless it's been retcon) she (the MCU version of this character) will be 30 by this July:

 

13 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

 

Definitely agree with this. I think one of the biggest problems that this show has is that the writers don't seem to know what kind of a show they want it to be. Or maybe it's that the writers want to write the story one way (a lot darker than what the fans want) while simultaneously bending over backwards to cater to the fans. So the writers will start writing these complex, dark stories where the heroes do morally complex / bad things, but then they scramble to hit the reset button so they end the season with "found family eating dinner together at a diner" or "FitzSimmons is pregnant, and we know they're the best parents ever."

 

I mean, look at all the nonsense with Ward. The twist with Ward being evil was great IMHO, but then they dragged on his storyline way too long, teasing that he was going to be a good guy and that Skyeward was happening for years. Then they finally kill him in season 3, and they bring him back again in season 3 and season 4. And I felt that the season 4 version was a particularly fanservice-y version of Ward.

 

The other problem that I see is that the writers are particularly terrible at writing characters in this grey area, and that goes for both heroes and villains. It winds up being heavy handed, clunky, and just not making sense as every "grey" character gets pushed to Team Good Guys and Team Bad Guys very quickly. Now that Fitz has done these bad things, the writers can't stand to leave him in a dark/grey area, and so they're trying to push him back into Team Good Guys by having every character (aside from Daisy) supporting Fitz and advocating for his goodness (which makes no sense). It would make a lot more sense IMHO if it were more balanced, with some supporting Fitz, some seeing him as a villain, and some not sure how to see him.

I agree with all of this. The writers seem to always be pushing things and then trying to backtrack over them. One example was the whole Will thing with Simmons. Apparently, the shippers on Reddit went mad as hell and then in a few episodes Simmons was basically "well Fitz maybe we can just leave Will on that planet...." and in the next episode, we learn that Will died and that was the end of it. 

Edit:

Quote

"FitzSimmons is pregnant, and we know they're the best parents ever."

 

 I want that bleached away. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/31/2018 at 8:03 AM, paigow said:

[Interior: SHIELD interview room - 28 years ago]

Peggy Carter: Mr. Sitwell, where did you go to high school?

Sitwell: Uhhh...California..

Peggy Carter: You need to be more specific.

Sitwell: Uhhh...Bunker Hill Academy For The Gifted

Nicely done. The fact that there actually was a Hydra High makes it even more surprising that SHIElD never shut them down and actually let HYDRA take over their organization.

On 3/31/2018 at 8:16 PM, Sandman said:

It's just that I feel certain the writers will find some way to subvert the idea that time is immutable, just enough for the hubris implied by "... It means you and I are invincible" to bite somebody in the ass. 

The stupid thing about everyone saying they are invincible, is that if you can't die, then you can't stop the world from blowing up and the rest of the season is pointless.

I am also wondering with since it seems that the alien dude was saying that the confederacy will save them from Thanos I wonder how changing the release date of Infinity War has affected the show story. Then again we kind of know the confederacy plan doesn't work since there is no way that Marvel is going to alllow this little show to be at all relevant with respect to what will probably be the biggest movie of the year.

[TVSpectator]

28 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The stupid thing about everyone saying they are invincible, is that if you can't die, then you can't stop the world from blowing up and the rest of the season is pointless.

1

This is the question of the year. 

Quote

 

I am also wondering with since it seems that the alien dude was saying that the confederacy will save them from Thanos I wonder how changing the release date of Infinity War has affected the show story. Then again we kind of know the confederacy plan doesn't work since there is no way that Marvel is going to alllow this little show to be at all relevant with respect to what will probably be the biggest movie of the year.

 

 

 

I doubt that Infinity War release date was changed because of this show but I won't put it past the show to have some kind of big Marvel tie-in (or have an entire season worth) of thematic tie-ins for Marvel's biggest movie of the decade in the near future. The release date was probably changed because of the Han Solo movie and also probably (maybe) the release date of Deadpool 2 that all come out around the same time (I think all three were once a week or so apart, before Marvel pushed Infinity War's release date up to April 27- which I believed was the original international release date but not the US release date) and also trying to have it open everywhere around the same time in hopes of keeping all leaks under wrap. Also, Marvel has been uber secret (more secret then they are usually are) about his movie. They (allegedly) never told even Robert Downey Jr about the script until filming and I won't put it past Marvel for everyone to sign NDAs as well. I wonder if this is the reason why they have been toying with this storyline? Are they waiting to see Infinity War during the LA screening?

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Kel Varnsen]

7 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

 

I doubt that Infinity War release date was changed because of this show but I won't put it past the show to have some kind of big Marvel tie-in (or have an entire season worth) of thematic tie-ins for Marvel's biggest movie of the decade in the near future. The release date was probably changed because of the Han Solo movie and also probably (maybe) the release date of Deadpool 2 that all come out around the same time (I think all three were once a week or so apart, before Marvel pushed Infinity War's release date up to April 27- which I believed was the original international release date but not the US release date) and also trying to have it open everywhere around the same time in hopes of keeping all leaks under wrap. Also, Marvel has been uber secret (more secret then they are usually are) about his movie. They (allegedly) never told even Robert Downey Jr about the script until filming and I won't put it past Marvel for everyone to sign NDAs as well. I wonder if this is the reason why they have been toying with this storyline? Are they waiting to see Infinity War during the LA screening?

Yea I wasn't really suggesting that the movie date was changed for the benefit of the show, because that wouldn't happen in a million years. I was more wondering if the plotting of the show was set up to tie into a May release date, and if moving the movie release date will mess up their story at all. Not that I expect the movie people to care.

[TVSpectator]

14 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea I wasn't really suggesting that the movie date was changed for the benefit of the show, because that wouldn't happen in a million years. I was more wondering if the plotting of the show was set up to tie into a May release date, and if moving the movie release date will mess up their story at all. Not that I expect the movie people to care.

I really have no idea what they are doing. They have said (at least Jed Whedon said) that they will not have a direct tie-in but  possibly hinted (or maybe it's an over-zelous online writer's take?) more like a "thematic tie-in"/loose connection and I have no idea what that means and/or they are just guessing on the actually Infinity War plot since Joss Whedon wasn't involved with this Avengers (the Russo Brothers directed the movie and Marcus and McFeely wrote the script and well, Feige of crouse is Feige- that is all I really know. Well, that and it's been reported that only a handful of people actually know the "true plot" of the movie). 

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[CaptainTightpants]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Also, Daisy is supposed to be pushing 30 right now because of what Cal said (unless it's been retcon) she (the MCU version of this character) will be 30 by this July:

I remember that scene, great acting by Kyle MacLachlan. 

But I didn't think time was necessarily passing in TV land at the same rate. That was the end of season 2, surely it hasn't been 4 years of elapsed time in the storyline? Admittedly I've lost track of the timeline, but they seem to lurch from one crisis to another at such a frantic speed that I had thought we were looking more at 18 months or so?

Edited April 4, 2018 by CaptainTightpants

[TVSpectator]

10 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I remember that scene, great acting by Kyle MacLachlan. 

But I didn't think time was necessarily passing in TV land at the same rate. That was the end of season 2, surely it hasn't been 4 years of elapsed time in the storyline? Admittedly I've lost track of the timeline, but they seem to lunch from one crisis to another at such a frantic speed that I had thought we were looking more at 18 months or so?

 

In Season 3 Simmons claims (in the episode 4.722 Hours) that the present date was 2015.  Assuming that 6 months went by (from that point onward) then Simmons left that planet either by the end of 2015 or was at the start of 2016. Then the story moved to 3 months from Maveth- assuming that Maveth took place during the same month that Simmons came back- and then after that, there was another 6 months time jump and Season 4 started. Fast forward to the end of the Season 4, Fitz didn't meet Enoch until 6 months after the rest of the team left and then Enoch froze him for another 70-80 years to catch up with everyone else. Then they return to the present so they either wind up where Fitz was first frozen or there are close back to where they started. Maybe they decided to place Coulson's team in 2019 for Infinity War?

 

So it's either 2017, 2018, or 2019 and all of those dates would place Daisy in her late 20s to early 30s.

 

Edit:

 

Also, Kyle MacLachlan was the best thing of Season 2. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[CaptainTightpants]

12 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Also, Kyle MacLachlan was the best thing of Season 2. 

Agreed. 

12 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

So it's either 2017, 2018, or 2019 and all of those dates would place Daisy in her late 20s to early 30s.

Daisy's age is not the biggest stumbling block for Directorship, even though I think all the previous Directors that we have seen have been significantly older than that. Jemma is even younger than Daisy I believe, but she would be a more sound choice for the position for many reasons. 

Daisy is not a person who would be a strategic and dispassionate thinker. Which I think they really need ( and are totally not going to get because of TV reasons). But the biggest stumbling block has to be that Daisy and YoYo currently make up 100% of SHIELD's powered fighters. They can't afford to keep her out of the field and in the office calling shots instead. 

[TVSpectator]

11 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Agreed. 

Daisy's age is not the biggest stumbling block for Directorship, even though I think all the previous Directors that we have seen have been significantly older than that. Jemma is even younger than Daisy I believe, but she would be a more sound choice for the position for many reasons. 

Daisy is not a person who would be a strategic and dispassionate thinker. Which I think they really need ( and are totally not going to get because of TV reasons). But the biggest stumbling block has to be that Daisy and YoYo currently make up 100% of SHIELD's powered fighters. They can't afford to keep her out of the field and in the office calling shots instead. 

I agree that Daisy is not the best choice of being the next director of SHIELD (my choice would be May. She is a season SHIELD veteran and she can make many better-calculated choices than Coulson, Simmons, and Daisy combined. Hell, even Mack would make a better director than Coulson, Simmons, and Daisy, IMO) but I have a feeling that the show wants us to believe that Daisy should be the next director (actually I think that the show should resurrect Mace and make him the acting director and demote Simmons to lab underling with no security clearance and just lock up Fitz, IMO). Sort of like how the show wanted us to assume that Coulson should be the director over someone like Mace.  Even though a person like Mace was probably a better choice for SHIELD, at the time, since they really did have an image problem. Not only that but Mace (whether it was earned or not) was actually liked by the public. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator