Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Primal Slayer]

If they do it, I hope they do it well. 

[Happy Harpy]

For some reason, I think it's the love interest that puts it more in the Quentin category than Laurel.  For some reason, I can't help but think if they were going to kill Laurel, they would give her more of a story.  My impression of Arrow is that they won't want to kill off anyone unless they can get maximum emotional pain from it. 

To play the devil's advocate, I'm under the impression that many people (aside from her die-hard fans of course!) react more posivitely to Laurel when she doesn't have her own story, but helps in a secondary capacity (this is an *impression*, I repeat, this is an *impression*). Even here, supposedly a "haters" place, she had way better comments in 3-01 and in 4-09, for example.

Her last big storyline, resurrecting Sara, was quite poorly received imo. Here it was scorched, but IIRC a good number of reviewers were left quite cold or disappointed or even WTFing. To repeat myself, I think the writers didn't know who was in the grave because they were testing reactions to characters and storylines in the first part of the season, and the (imo) flop of Laurel's NP adventures could be a (grave)stone in her garden.

 

So, maybe not giving Laurel a storyline, and having her complement OTA instead of using OTA to service her character, is a way of amp'ing the audience reaction to her loss. I'm talking here in particular of the neutral/anti part of the audience, since those who like her would be affected anyway.

I don't know for others, but for me Laurel is the TV equivalent of an annoying bug right now. I won't cry if she's squashed, I will be relieved of her constant buzz parasiting my viewing, but I won't waste the energy of throwing a party to celebrate whereas after 4x05, I'd have been popping the champagne and throwing confettis. That's the best they can get with viewers like me.

 

Of course, the majority of this board thinks/speculates it's Quentin, and this board is never wrong -except maybe when the actual storyline is so bad that posters were "Nah, the writers won't be so stupid" beforehand. So it's 99% Quentin and I'm going to be 100% pissed off.

 

And if it's Laurel, there will be another resurrection, or a death fake-out and she'll be back in a white wig playing a not-Laurel-but-still her...oops, wrong show. I don't think they'd have the cojones of killing her off definitely for good for realz. Gah, I feel like Carrie Fisher's character on When Harry met Sally: "He won't leaver her, of course he won't leave her, I know he won't leave her".

Edited December 14, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[wonderwall]

If Laurel dies, I feel like Sara would just bring her back over on LoT. If Quentin dies, I don't see Sara trying to bring him back. 

 

That's what I think, at least. Okay so here's basically a summary of whether or not Laurel is in the grave.

 

Pro Laurel being the grave:

• She has no storyline this year
• She has the most connections to the team unlike Quentin so it would be the most emotional death between her and Quentin (especially for Oliver)
• The team has gotten very mask heavy and killing her would lighten the load
• This could potentially be a meaty story for Quentin next season (where Laurel's death would make him become 'ugly')
• She brings nothing new to the show and the writers don't seem to be very interested in her character (look at seasons 1-3 and how she has zero storylines coming up)
• The writers are making Laurel more likable now to make the death more emotional to the audience
• All of her potentially meaty stories have been tied up in a neat bow (feud with Oliver, reacting to QL being a double agent)
• Plenty of anvils have been dropped in 4x09 what with Laurel telling her dad she can take care of herself (mirroring what Felicity told Oliver and she got shot and almost died) and her telling Oliver that he's not to blame (which is close to what Oliver said at the grave)
• Darhk always threatens to hurt Laurel to keep Quentin in line

 

Con Laurel being in the grave:

• Comics
• The show spent so much time building her up as BC last season
• The writers seem to be making more of an effort integrating Laurel into the show (4x09)
• She's becoming more useful (4x09)
• The writers don't have the 'guts'
• It would be ironic for Laurel to tell her father she can take care of herself and it turns out he's the one who died
• It's most likely Quentin in the grave because he's the double agent and he's most likely the one to die when Damien finds out
• There are a lot of anvils for Quentin too considering Darhk always threatens him by threatening Laurel but this could possibly lead to Quentin saving Laurel and sacrificing himself

 

All I know is that if Laurel died, that would fundamentally change Quentin. If Quentin died, that would make Laurel probably give her a better reason to save the city (basically not much would change). 

Edited December 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

Now that people have mentioned that Sara's Emblem/Logo on LoT is almost identical to a Black Canary logo, I can't help but wonder if they will kill LL off this year and then have SL transition to the Black Canary in honor of her dead sister. Perhaps they want a BC that is legendary and LL's version is forgettable at most. Or maybe there is no symbolism behind them using a BC logo for Sara. Just seems like an interesting choice.

[Genki]

I think it is Laurel, I think it makes sense for it to be Laurel, but I was burned by S2/3 where I thought they were going to kill or fix Laurel and ended with them doubling down on all the elements that made Laurel so problematic.

 

Here is why for me it makes logical sense to kill off Laurel.

 

• She is not the leading lady in anything but billings anymore, for the last 3 seasons Laurel has had development and storylines and supporting characters independent of Oliver that would also bring her back into his orbit (CNRI, Tommy, Blood, Alcoholism, Becoming the BC, etc) This year there is nothing she is in TA that's it. S4 has a lot of that development going to Felicity. 

 

• Major character developments and arcs are rushed. Becoming a vigilante and resurrecting Sara were written to get the story over and done with rather than to develop Laurel as a character IMO. The writers don't seem to know how to (nor do they seem to want to) write to Laurel's strengths as a character nor to KC's acting strengths.

 

• The character does not generate enough buzz I know this is subjective, but looking as fan generated content, the twitter graphs as well as search results  for fanfic & fan vids laurel is not up there

 

• Linking QL to DS is a way to keep QL connected with Arrow characters without Laurel being around, and he still has the police thing going on too.

 

• She was not presented as something which motives Oliver. It was plot driven in 4.09 that Diggle was taken but it also allowed him to be included in the "As long as they are alive you have something to fight for" category by Dhark.

 

• She was also the only one, who died in TL #1 that was not in mortal danger in 4.09. and there is surely still a price to pay for resurrecting Sara (OK this is reaching a bit but still valid reasons to me) Death do not like being thwarted!!

 

• There seems to be very little storyline potential for Laurel. They is no LI there is not much District Attorney Office stories, even her apartment set has been used more for Thea than Laurel. They don't even bother telling her major plot points and the QL being a double agent for DD thing was resolved in 2 minutes.

 

• The strongest reason to keep her alive is Because Comics.

 

Laurel is no.1 on my "Who's in the grave list". If not for past incidents where the EPs & writers have done bewildering things, to the detriment of the show IMO, in service of Laurel's character I would be 90% certain she is going to die. Right now I'm 60% for Laurel, which is still waaaaay higher than everyone else.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Genki

[tangerine95]

I totally agree.I still think it could be Quentin too but I can't ignore how much its looking like its going to be Laurel.It never looked that way in other seasons to me tbh.Season 1 I still thought they were going to keep her as leading lady,season 2 I was thinking Sara or Quentin will be the ones to die by the end and season 3 I thought we were never getting rid of her.Though looking at it now its clear to me how they worked on replacing her as leading lady and LI in seasons 1 and 2 and its clear just how rushed her BC arc was just by comparing it to Thea's,no need to even compare to Oliver.The only reason I can think of why she wouldn't die is she's BC.People used to say they won't ever let go off Lauriver because Laurel is BC and they did it.So I don't think Laurel dying is something they wouldn't do just because of comics if they wanted to do it.

If they truly cared about BC so much I think they would be doing something with her other than fight scenes.She just became BC and she's getting nothing,all the new hero and struggling with it storylines are going to Thea.I would think that if they were so invested in Laurel as BC they would be giving her all that.Her only storyline this season has been about her sister again and pretty much served to undo all her motivation to put on a mask and all the development she had last season.I just don't think you do that when you are invested in a character and finally have them at a point you wanted which for them was Laurel being BC.

If they really want to suprise people the only way to do that is to kill off a mask on team Arrow imo.Killing off Quentin isn't all that suprising or worth the hype.Every season people expect him to die.I can't imagine that when the episode airs and the death happens Quentin dying will generate much buzz really.Laurel dying would probably be the most buzz the character has ever gotten.

It also doesn't seem to me like they're redeming him to die.It seems to me like they're doing it to have him as a police connection close to the team which is a position they really do need.Not to mention a romance with Mama Smoak that looks like its going somewhere.

But I do agree that they do ilogical things when Laurel is concerned a lot of the time so this could end up being another one and that's why I'm leaving room for it being Quentin.If they didn't have a history of keeping Laurel for whatever reason when they should have really gotten rid of her,I would be totally sure its her in the grave.

[hogwash]

409 dropped some anvils but I don't think I buy it. Logic doesn't apply when it comes to Laurel. She hasn't fit the show since she stopped being Rachel Dawes but that hasn't stopped them. They literally killed Sara AND Oliver for her last season. Utterly inexplicable. They killed the main character of the show for a couple of episodes for a character like Laurel. That actually happened. No logic works. I'm leaning towards Lance. I just hope they don't expect me to care about how sad it makes Laurel for the nth time in a row.

[tv echo]

I think they'll be dropping anvils for various characters over the course of the season.  They've dropped anvils for Quentin and Laurel and maybe even Thea.  Next they'll drop some anvils for Diggle.  And they've been dropping anvils for Felicity throughout.  They want to keep us guessing (hoping?) up until the actual death.

Edited December 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

They made Felicity the suspect to be in the grave for 4A part of the season and during hiatus. Since it keeps the buzz for the show up. Yes they put in anvils for other characters, but its been overshadowed by the big Felicity is the one in the grave flashing lights. Next episode will deal with Felicity in the hospital and Felicitys recovery. And from 4x11 onwards i expect to see major anvils for the remaining characters. First being Diggle with his HIVE agenda. And the last episodes will revolve around the Lance duo, Lance getting exposed as a double agent and involving Laurel in the whole mess. The death will be shown around 4x17-4x18.

[statsgirl]

I think it was clever to do a grave flash forward.  It's got people talking and biting their nails.

 

And also clever to make people think over the winter hiatus that it's Felicity who is dead.  After Oliver (who was "dead" last season), she's the one people will worry about most.

 

My top pick for the grave is still Quentin but everyone is anticipating it so much, would it really be shocking after all if it was him?  Tommy's death was shocking, Moira's death was shocking, Roy's not-death was shocking, but Quentin is such an obvious choice, it seems like the reaction would be "yeah, thought so".

 

====================

After the last episode, I can see Oliver telling Felicity "I didn't tell you about William because that was the only way I could be in his life.  I know how hard it was for you to lose your father and I didn't want that to happen to him". And Felicity just kissing him "yes".

I think it was clever to do a grave flash forward.  It's got people talking and biting their nails.

 

And also clever to make people think over the winter hiatus that it's Felicity who is dead.  After Oliver (who was "dead" last season), she's the one people will worry about most.

 

My top pick for the grave is still Quentin but everyone is anticipating it so much, would it really be shocking after all if it was him?  Tommy's death was shocking, Moira's death was shocking, Roy's not-death was shocking, but Quentin is such an obvious choice, it seems like the reaction would be "yeah, thought so".

 

====================

After the last episode, I can see Oliver telling Felicity "I didn't tell you about William because that was the only way I could be in his life.  I know how hard it was for you to lose your father and I didn't want that to happen to him". And Felicity just kissing him "yes".

[bijoux]

I think it was clever to do a grave flash forward.  It's got people talking and biting their nails.

 

I kind of hate it because it colors 88 per cent of all discussion. A part of me is just waiting for it to happen so that the speculation is done with. Of course, I will sing a different tune if they kill someone I really don't want them to. Namely Dig, Thea, Roy, Lyla.

[kismet]

I liked the flash forward. But I must admit I didn't need a reminder at the winter finale considering the timeline doesn't add up. I don't mnd anvils or piecing together mysteries. But really they have not dropped any serious hints so the reshowing of the grave was kinda dumb overkill.

Lastly, I do feel kinda morbid & bad at times that I ak actively trying to figure out who is gonna die. I know they are fictional characters but still it feels odd at times to be making bets on someone dying.

[Happy Harpy]

Lastly, I do feel kinda morbid & bad at times that I ak actively trying to figure out who is gonna die. I know they are fictional characters but still it feels odd at times to be making bets on someone dying.

I heard that some gossip sites have kind of pools on which notoriously addicted celebrity will die first. Brr.

 

I thought that the grave thing was a cheap ploy and I didn't want to talk about it, but I don't want it to be Quentin (or Diggle or Thea) so I'm grasping at straws. Just in case, in passing, if it's Donna in the grave, the straw will break the camel's back and I'll subscribe to tumblr and twitter and wherever so that I can directly stick my pitchfork in the EPs' butts.

 

I find it interesting that no one here, or almost, is speculating about Felicity's possible death. Because nobody or almost believes it's possible. Cop-out with Oliver's death  last year (duh) cop-out ith Felicity's death this year (duh)...

Now that the writers have the whole fandom aflutter with speculations, I think they need to deliver. Or the hype they created might have the effect the non-Moldavian slaughter had on Dynasty. OTOH, if they don't cop out but don't choose wisely, they might reiterate the Sara disaster and lose 1) a good chunk of viewership  (who doesn't love Diggle, for example?) and 2) all credibility by having to bring back the dead once again and even faster than Sara.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Primal Slayer]

Even though it would feel weird as hell, I have to say....I wouldn't mind a scene between Laurel/Malcolm getting a bit sentimental about Tommy. It is weird that they have never really had a talk about him, or even Malcolm/Thea.

[hogwash]

I hope that never happens. Malcolm hating/disliking Tommy is pretty much the only thing they remember from S01. I don't need anymore in-show reasons to want Malcolm to get stabbed multiple times by every Flarrowverse character. They're revisionist as hell with Malcolm but that would really set me off the edge. The freaking nerve if that happened. There are limits! 

 

I do wish someone would remember Tommy/500 victims in anyway. 

[Chaser]

We actually might get a Tommy mention, but I imagine it will be Laurel empathizing with Oliver.

[wonderwall]

We actually might get a Tommy mention, but I imagine it will be Laurel empathizing with Oliver.

I can see Oliver/Laurel having a warm moment where Laurel tells him (when it's appropriate) that Tommy would've been so happy for him or something like that

[Chaser]

or even Laurel having lost Tommy prays Oliver never feels that pain or what not.

[kismet]

I don't think LL remembers who Tommy is... I certainly don't think KC is campaigning for a Tommy mention at any point. I'd probably believe BM would realistically drop Tommy's name before LL at this point.  

 

The only character I can actually see organically bringing up Tommy is Oliver. Maybe TQ or FS, but it would only be in conversation with OQ or MM. And I honestly think MM has moved on. Although I think he did mention it to TQ in 320 when he told her she could crossover to the other world, so that was nice.

[EmilyBettFan]

It always amuses me that they try to trend Black Canary or LL and never achieve it.

It's getting harder to trend but if you notice the difference in numbers I don't think they will ever get there now.

Even before where it was easier I don't think they trended unless her name was tacked on with another character

[EmilyBettFan]

Quarks did you mean 4 seasons and 9 episodes to integrate LL?

[lexicon]

I think it was clever to do a grave flash forward.  It's got people talking and biting their nails.

 

====================

 

After the last episode, I can see Oliver telling Felicity "I didn't tell you about William because that was the only way I could be in his life.  I know how hard it was for you to lose your father and I didn't want that to happen to him". And Felicity just kissing him "yes".

 

ITA about the flash forward, it gets people talking and it suggests that there are real stakes this season. If done right, it could be tantamount to having the viewers embark on a season long mystery that finally culminates in the death and the usual end of season hijinks. My doubts however, lie in their ability to do it right. There's no need for heavy handed lines and horribly obvious edits/promos. Instead, in this they need to realise that subtlety is their friend, all that's necessary is just a few clues to keep the audience guessing and wanting more.

 

As for the secret baby reveal, 4.09 simultaneously made me feel better and worse. It showed me just how good Oliver and Felicity are if they're just allowed to be themselves without any of that artificial drama stuff. My concern is these EP's have shown that they love drama too much just to let them be. So I'm guessing that the reveal is gonna be bad, although maybe not as bad as I feared after 4.08. 

[quarks]

Quarks did you mean 4 seasons and 9 episodes to integrate LL?

 

No - I was thinking of seasons 1 through 3, plus the nine episodes of this season.

 

Sorry for not being clear!

[BkWurm1]

I don't think LL remembers who Tommy is... I certainly don't think KC is campaigning for a Tommy mention at any point. I'd probably believe BM would realistically drop Tommy's name before LL at this point.  

 

The only character I can actually see organically bringing up Tommy is Oliver. Maybe TQ or FS, but it would only be in conversation with OQ or MM. And I honestly think MM has moved on. Although I think he did mention it to TQ in 320 when he told her she could crossover to the other world, so that was nice.

MM mention of Tommy was in that deleted scene that I really wish they'd kept in, the one that had him telling Thea it was ok if she didn't want to come back. :(

[Primal Slayer]

It always amuses me that they try to trend Black Canary or LL and never achieve it.

It's getting harder to trend but if you notice the difference in numbers I don't think they will ever get there now.

Even before where it was easier I don't think they trended unless her name was tacked on with another character

At least they try and don't give up.

[kismet]

ITA about the flash forward, it gets people talking and it suggests that there are real stakes this season. If done right, it could be tantamount to having the viewers embark on a season long mystery that finally culminates in the death and the usual end of season hijinks. My doubts however, lie in their ability to do it right. There's no need for heavy handed lines and horribly obvious edits/promos. Instead, in this they need to realise that subtlety is their friend, all that's necessary is just a few clues to keep the audience guessing and wanting more.

Exactly. But per usual I don't think they are executing it well. Because rather than it being considered a mystery, I feel like certain of the writers are building it up for the big surprise/GOTCHA moment. They are taking all of the subtlety and grace out of it. I also think they are too short on the hints and too heavy on the anvils, so it makes for a clunky show, especially with their flair for drama.

 

As for the secret baby reveal, 4.09 simultaneously made me feel better and worse. It showed me just how good Oliver and Felicity are if they're just allowed to be themselves without any of that artificial drama stuff. My concern is these EP's have shown that they love drama too much just to let them be. So I'm guessing that the reveal is gonna be bad, although maybe not as bad as I feared after 4.08.

This I think is going to be dependent solely on the writers of the fallout episode. And if it is

"sins of the father (413)"

as predict by our intelligent crew here, than its in the hands of Keto and Brian Sokolowski. I am honestly concerned about Keto, but some of her plots have been transitional and tight. Also her shows sometimes do have surprise character moments, so maybe that will work in our advantage. I'm keeping the faith with Brian S because he has written some of my fav episodes, but he can be lead astray by certain co-writers. So we will have to see.

 

As much as I think WM is doing a good job balancing MG out, I'm actually concerned for how she is going to handle this BM drama because I realized she is the one that is originally responsible for BM at all way back in s2. So this BM drama is her little baby, no wonder she is so intrigued with it and ready to have it all play out. Her TV drama background actually concerns me a lot in the BM drama, because a lot of the forced cliche drama for tension & plot is her wheelhouse. MG might write for plot, but his stories are generally built on house of cards when it comes to character development because the character is secondary in his plot driven plot. That is not the case with WM, a lot of her plots are character driven and that concerns me because she could make some of these characterizations cut deep.

 

Her "Dark Waters" episode proved to me that she wants O/F together. But when I look back at her work on s3, she had her hands in a lot of the RP melodramatic cliche drama, so that is making me a little concerned. If MG was handling it, it would be like ripping of a band-aid, it would hurt but it would be quick with little scarring. WM may draw it out a little more than we want and there still might be scars. Here's hoping she is more inclined to write quality drama and not cliche overly melodramatic drama. As much as I think she orchestrates and wants strong female characters, I think she has been hit or miss on her actual characterizations. Her FS, is not always my favorite FS, so here's hoping she is less involved in the actual writing of her. She actually has written some of my least favorite FSs.

Edited December 15, 2015 by kismet

[tv echo]

I've been reading some reviews and comments speculating that being seriously injured and almost dying (assuming she survives) will cause Felicity to rethink whether she wants to continue the hero lifestyle because it's so dangerous, or will somehow emotionally change her feelings toward Oliver.  

 

I just don't see that.  This is not the first time that Felicity has been injured or thought she was dying.  She was shot saving Sara in S2.  More significantly, just last season, she thought she was dying from the virus thrown into the Nanda Parbat cell when Oliver was pretending to be evil.  If she bounced back from that, then she should bounce back from almost dying now.  Any other reaction would be OOC and just a plot contrivance.

Edited December 15, 2015 by tv echo

[Password]

What is this lie everyone keeps talking about?

Episode 9 raised my hopes that this ridiculous secrets and lies, baby mama without proper motivation storyline will be handled with a MODICUM of maturity. If Felicity decides she needs some space from Oliver to think things through I'd be cool with it.

If Oliver ACTUALLY says something like "I couldn't tell you because I promised I wouldn't and I know you're bad at keeping secrets because you've proven exactly that for 3 and a half years" I may actually vomit.

He. Lied. There's no way around it. Fess up, accept the consequences and move forward. Felicity and Oliver's character arc deserves more than this.

[Morrigan2575]

I've been reading some reviews and comments speculating that being seriously injured and almost dying will cause Felicity to rethink whether she wants to continue the hero lifestyle because it's so dangerous, or will somehow emotionally change her feelings toward Oliver.

I just don't see that. This is not the first time that Felicity has been injured or thought she was dying. She was shot saving Sara in S2. More significantly, just last season, she thought she was dying from the virus thrown into the Nanda Parbat cell when Oliver was pretending to be evil. If she bounced back from that, then she should bounce back from almost dying now. Any other reaction would be OOC and just a plot contrivance.

I only saw that one you just posted and it's from a questionable 'source', IMO.

However, I agree with you, comments like that tell me the reviewer/viewer has blinders on, Felicity doesn't wear a mask therefor she's not a hero, therfore she's going to leave this life because it's too tough for her.

They forget that in S1, she had a bomb collar attached to her neck and still managed to direct Oliver to catch dodger, she went into an underground casino with the sole intention of getting caught so she could plant a bug on the Manager's computer and she decided to stay in the Glades during The Undertaking.

In season 2 she took a bullet for Sara, she was bait for Slade and had a sword to neck.

In S3 she faced down Ra's Al Ghul, faced down Maseo and Al Sahim (smuggling in gun's for Lyla) went to NP to stop the Alpha/Omega virus, was "poisoned and almost died" in NP and ended the season saving Oliver's life by flying in the ATOM suit.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

If Oliver ACTUALLY says something like "I couldn't tell you because I promised I wouldn't and I know you're bad at keeping secrets because you've proven exactly that for 3 and a half years" I may actually vomit.

 

 

I would NOT be happy if he used anything to do with her as a "reason" for why he had to lie to her.  It's one thing to put off dropping big news when she's is injured but if they imply she didn't get to know though some fault of her own, that would make me rage. 

[Password]

Just try and imagine this with me:

Felicity: "How could you keep this from me Oliver? You proposed!"

Oliver: "Yes but Felicity just because I proposed doesn't mean I have to share these things with you. It's not my secret to tell!"

Felicity: "...speechless".

[Happy Harpy]

Her "Dark Waters" episode proved to me that she wants O/F together. But when I look back at her work on s3, she had her hands in a lot of the RP melodramatic cliche drama, so that is making me a little concerned. If MG was handling it, it would be like ripping of a band-aid, it would hurt but it would be quick with little scarring. WM may draw it out a little more than we want and there still might be scars. Here's hoping she is more inclined to write quality drama and not cliche overly melodramatic drama. As much as I think she orchestrates and wants strong female characters, I think she has been hit or miss on her actual characterizations. Her FS, is not always my favorite FS, so here's hoping she is less involved in the actual writing of her. She actually has written some of my least favorite FSs.

Wasn't she guilty of...I mean, the credited writer for the PodPeople episode back in S2? I wasn't too happy when she was promoted, because of it.

 

There was no way, imo, that the BM thing was ever going to be good or even decent, unless she was immediately revealed as a schemer and the kid as not Oliver's. No way in hell, and I had been dreading it since the first flashback.

So mark my words, there's no way that the outcome won't be ugly or demeaning to the characters or the O/F relationship, now that Oliver lied (white lie or almost lie or not technically lie, whatever, he didn't tell Felicity about a life-altering fact). Honestly, the only way out of it is a big old retcon. Even never mentioning it again won't do it, because 1) they will mention it again and 2) it would be tainting O/F forever, imo.

[tv echo]

I just posted a second roundtable discussion in the Starling City Times thread in which reviewers believe that Felicity will be traumatized or emotionally damaged in some way.

[dtissagirl]

My only hope in this stupid secrets & lies storyline is that it was so terribly received by fans and media alike, that while it might be too late to change whatever they have planned for the fallout between O/F, there's still time to ditch the actual kid and BM, if they had plans to bring them back. BM split with the kid after the events from 409, never to be seen or heard of again is my preference.

[kismet]

Wasn't she guilty of...I mean, the credited writer for the PodPeople episode back in S2? I wasn't too happy when she was promoted, because of it.

 

There was no way, imo, that the BM thing was ever going to be good or even decent, unless she was immediately revealed as a schemer and the kid as not Oliver's. No way in hell, and I had been dreading it since the first flashback.

So mark my words, there's no way that the outcome won't be ugly or demeaning to the characters or the O/F relationship, now that Oliver lied (white lie or almost lie or not technically lie, whatever, he didn't tell Felicity about a life-altering fact). Honestly, the only way out of it is a big old retcon. Even never mentioning it again won't do it, because 1) they will mention it again and 2) it would be tainting O/F forever, imo.

Which podpeople episode in s2?

 

I believe there was only a few good ways to write the BM story. And that was to start by having the BM be reasonable. OQ be excited about being a father, but wanting to keep a safe distance (so the show is not bogged down with a kid). The not keeping a secret from FS would have been the best way to keep the story on the good side of the coin. However, all the ways they could have made the story good wouldn't make for "good" television in their opinion I guess. But that is neither here nor there at this point, since we are stuck with whatever mess the writers now have to now undo. Most of the good ways to tell the story they have already sabotaged. Here's hoping they have stopped some of their self-destructive writing for "good" drama. Because it never translates to "good" on the screen.

Edited December 15, 2015 by kismet

[way2interested]

As much as I think WM is doing a good job balancing MG out, I'm actually concerned for how she is going to handle this BM drama because I realized she is the one that is originally responsible for BM at all way back in s2. So this BM drama is her little baby, no wonder she is so intrigued with it and ready to have it all play out. Her TV drama background actually concerns me a lot in the BM drama, because a lot of the forced cliche drama for tension & plot is her wheelhouse. MG might write for plot, but his stories are generally built on house of cards when it comes to character development because the character is secondary in his plot driven plot. That is not the case with WM, a lot of her plots are character driven and that concerns me because she could make some of these characterizations cut deep.

 

Her "Dark Waters" episode proved to me that she wants O/F together. But when I look back at her work on s3, she had her hands in a lot of the RP melodramatic cliche drama, so that is making me a little concerned. If MG was handling it, it would be like ripping of a band-aid, it would hurt but it would be quick with little scarring. WM may draw it out a little more than we want and there still might be scars. Here's hoping she is more inclined to write quality drama and not cliche overly melodramatic drama. As much as I think she orchestrates and wants strong female characters, I think she has been hit or miss on her actual characterizations. Her FS, is not always my favorite FS, so here's hoping she is less involved in the actual writing of her. She actually has written some of my least favorite FSs.

 

Actually, since she was just a producer/staff writer for Arrow back in season 2, she probably didn't have any say in the BM being a thing (the plot point actually has GB written all over it, with drama being set up and picked up at a later time). The decision for that storyline as a possibility lies with the showrunners at the time, like MG, AK, and GB. At most, her contribution to the story back then was how it was executed in that episode (which I actually thought was pretty good), and a breaking of the idea in general (figuring out, so is Oliver going to have a kid out there somewhere? Yep. Are we just going to leave it out there and eventually come back to it? Yep).

 

I'm not saying that she's blameless at all, since bringing up the BM during this season is definitely one of her decisions under her authority as showrunner this season. I just dislike when one writer gets complete blame for a plot point. Staff writers are in charge of execution of episodes (whether the dialogue sounds natural, whether the episode feels rushed, whether the episode told/showed to us everything it needed to, etc.), but they aren't really in charge of plots per episode (they can surely have significant input into the story, but even then they have to get it cleared by the showrunners). The showrunners decide on the plots that they want and then assign writers and producers to break and write the episode. It's a team effort, win or lose. It's one of the reasons why I can't completely blame WM for this BM plot. She's not the one made this dangling plot point, Greg, Andrew, and Marc are, she just happened to have written the episode with it. 

 

That being said, she still agreed to executing it, probably because she did like writing 220, and I can't really make her blameless for deciding that this constitutes as good drama between Olicity. However, I do keep in mind that she didn't write the crossovers (given the story credits for the episodes, I have a feeling that she actually had less input with that story at all), and that maybe if she did, the episodes would have had more of a character-driven feel to it rather than the plot-mess it ended up being. Perhaps, when the actual plot does come up, it will become more of a character-driven argument between Oliver and Felicity in which they actually discuss Oliver's tendency to keep secrets to himself and Felicity reaching her boiling point after everything they've been through. 

[Password]

They've effectively ruined any good vibes for the baby mama storyline because of the secrets and lies. Some say Oliver and Felicity are tainted but I think the storyline is tainted. I've yet to read a review that is excited for this storyline and it's largely because Oliver is lying to Felicity.

And OK baby mama is just unreasonable.

[Carrie Ann]

Wasn't she guilty of...I mean, the credited writer for the PodPeople episode back in S2? I wasn't too happy when she was promoted, because of it.

 

I was a little wary too, but tbh, I am happy to have a powerful female voice guiding the show, and there isn't another female writer on the show who I feel better about (I have issues with Schwartz and Shimizu too). That said, I don't really know that we can assume that the William story was WM's "baby," as I'm sure all the EPs had to discuss introducing this plotline, and if anything, she may have just been saddled with situating it in her episode. [ETA: or what @way2interested said!]

 

We know that they've heard the criticism of 408 and the storyline in general, and maybe it's silly of me, but I do have hope that they may be adjusting their plans, at least somewhat. I'm sure we're dealing with it again, but maybe in less of a heavy way than they planned and maybe we can hope not to see it at all in S5.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Happy Harpy]

Which podpeople episode in s2?

Time of Death, the original PodPeople episode for me.

 

Oh, I agree that there might have been ways to limit the damages while writing the BM (sorry, I didn't express myself well). I just never thought they'd choose that option, but go for cheap melodrama instead; if only because the story was imo relevant for O/L and not for O/F. It shouldn't even have been a thing between them. And unless the fans and reviewers backlash was enough, and it wasn't too late, I can guarantee that the "ripples" or whatever term they used to qualify the future consequences for O/F will also be the most terrible option of the OOC melodramatic kind.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[kismet]

Actually, since she was just a producer/staff writer for Arrow back in season 2, she probably didn't have any say in the BM being a thing (the plot point actually has GB written all over it, with drama being set up and picked up at a later time). The decision for that storyline as a possibility lies with the showrunners at the time, like MG, AK, and GB. At most, her contribution to the story back then was how it was executed in that episode (which I actually thought was pretty good), and a breaking of the idea in general (figuring out, so is Oliver going to have a kid out there somewhere? Yep. Are we just going to leave it out there and eventually come back to it? Yep).

 

I'm not saying that she's blameless at all, since bringing up the BM during this season is definitely one of her decisions under her authority as showrunner this season. I just dislike when one writer gets complete blame for a plot point. Staff writers are in charge of execution of episodes (whether the dialogue sounds natural, whether the episode feels rushed, whether the episode told/showed to us everything it needed to, etc.), but they aren't really in charge of plots per episode (they can surely have significant input into the story, but even then they have to get it cleared by the showrunners). The showrunners decide on the plots that they want and then assign writers and producers to break and write the episode. It's a team effort, win or lose. It's one of the reasons why I can't completely blame WM for this BM plot. She's not the one made this dangling plot point, Greg, Andrew, and Marc are, she just happened to have written the episode with it. 

 

That being said, she still agreed to executing it, probably because she did like writing 220, and I can't really make her blameless for deciding that this constitutes as good drama between Olicity. However, I do keep in mind that she didn't write the crossovers (given the story credits for the episodes, I have a feeling that she actually had less input with that story at all), and that maybe if she did, the episodes would have had more of a character-driven feel to it rather than the plot-mess it ended up being. Perhaps, when the actual plot does come up, it will become more of a character-driven argument between Oliver and Felicity in which they actually discuss Oliver's tendency to keep secrets to himself and Felicity reaching her boiling point after everything they've been through. 

I like most of your post. I wasn't trying to blame WM solely for the BM drama or plot. That is a shared choice by the showrunners. I'm just saying that she is going to be more invested in the story, because it's origins is in one of her episodes. It's just human nature that she is likely going to be more invested in it, since she is responsible for how it was written in the beginning. It might pan out better for us in the long run. I'm just worried because I think WM's bread & butter is drama and that can be both good and bad. She gave us 320 which was amazing from a writing & character perspective, but she also gave us the Nanda Parbat (315) & Cupid (307) which had some of the most soapy dramatic plots for drama's sake that were not character friendly IMO.

[dtissagirl]

I'm convinced they're gonna connect Oliver being a lying liar who lies to

Felicity's father showing up

, so they totally wrote themselves into a corner there. I guess, fortunately it would be the lie that's the plot device, not BM nor the kid. They are perfectly ditchable to offscreenville.

Edited December 15, 2015 by dtissagirl

[way2interested]

I like most of your post. I wasn't trying to blame WM solely for the BM drama or plot. That is a shared choice by the showrunners. I'm just saying that she is going to be more invested in the story, because it's origins is in one of her episodes. It's just human nature that she is likely going to be more invested in it, since she is responsible for how it was written in the beginning. It might pan out better for us in the long run. I'm just worried because I think WM's bread & butter is drama and that can be both good and bad. She gave us 320 which was amazing from a writing & character perspective, but she also gave us the Nanda Parbat (315) & Cupid (307) which had some of the most soapy dramatic plots for drama's sake that were not character friendly IMO.

Oh, I definitely believe that she is going to have a bigger investment in the story than we would want (heck, the twist is one of the biggest topics of the entire show, and since it came from the way she wrote it, she's got to be excited on elaborating it further in a seasonal plot), but I'm just saying that she might have better luck in rationalizing the plot in execution. The episodes you mentioned were still when MG was the only showrunner, he was still in charge of making the decisions of the plots of those episodes. Yes, the dialogue (like in 307 with the speech about Ray which was definitely undeserved) was off-point in some places, and the characters (like in 315 when Diggle and Oliver isolated Felicity from their plan because reasons) were acting different, but the plots were not from her hands, only the execution (which I actually thought, from a story execution stand-point, like tone and pacing, that the episodes were fine, it was just some of the plots, characters, and dialogue were off). I just still always remember that writing and executing is a team effort, and that s4, for the most part, has been a pretty good team effort

 

I totally get your fears with this plot and with WM. I've just got my hopes to counter. And since this is the "Hopes and Fears" page, I guess we balance each other out in the long run ;)

[kismet]

Time of Death, the original PodPeople episode for me.

 

Oh, I agree that there might have been ways to limit the damages while writing the BM (sorry, I didn't express myself well). I just never thought they'd choose that option, but go for cheap melodrama instead; if only because the story was imo relevant for O/L and not for O/F. It shouldn't even have been a thing between them. And unless the fans and reviewers backlash was enough, and it wasn't too late, I can guarantee that the "ripples" or whatever term they used to qualify the future consequences for O/F will also be the most terrible option of the OOC melodramatic kind.

Time of Death was actually one of my favorite episodes of s2. I actually don't think they acted like PodPeople, but they definitely were not likable characters. For me they just acted like a portion of their most authentic selves.... just not the pretty self. Everyone has an ugly or at least a not so pretty side, I think ToD just tapped into that. LL was bitchy & honest. OQ was easily persuadable & short-sighted. FS was irrationally jealous & insecure. Sara was weak & selfish. Which is perhaps why I am leery the more I think about what WM may do with the BM plot line if it is being delegated to her over MG.

 

But in the end we really don't know who is in charge of the BM plot, all I can hope is that they take the universal critiques of the story to heart. Because melodrama can be good in small amounts like ToD, but it overtook s3 which was present in most of the eps attached to WM. So yea as hopeful as I am that they can turn this story around, if I am being honest with myself, I am concerned this story may go really bad really fast. It would have been ugly with MG, but it would have been quick. I'm not sure quick is WM's style, but I have seen her ugly.

Edited December 15, 2015 by kismet

[way2interested]

Time of Death was actually one of my favorite episodes of s2. I actually don't think they acted like PodPeople, but they definitely were not likable characters. For me they just acted like a portion of their most authentic selves.... just not the pretty self. Everyone has an ugly or at least a not so pretty side, I think ToD just tapped into that. LL was bitchy & honest. OQ was easily persuadable & short-sighted. FS was irrationally jealous & insecure. Sara was weak & selfish. 

 

One of the main reasons why I did not think that s3 destroyed any character summed up in a few sentences, thanks!

[tangerine95]

Tbh it doesn't seem to me like any of them are all that excited about the kid storyline.They did seem that way when it was introduced but the way it was actually written was all about giving olicity some drama and probably stalling their wedding until next season not the actual kid or Oliver as a father which would show me they actually care about this storyline .I get the feeling they don't care about the kid or BM in any way other than using them as plot devices.Maybe its because they didn't make them Connor and Sandra so they don't have a comic book destiny and the only thing a 9 year old kid can do on shows aparently is get kidnapped or cause drama for a couple.Its annoying because I think this is only second to a love triangle as the worst thing to give olicity angst over.

They made BM horrible in order to give Oliver a forgivable reason to lie to Felicity and I believe they were fully aware how she would come across.I do think they underestimated how much people would hate Oliver lying to Felicity no matter what reason they give.

I do think there will be drama from this but after seeing 4.09 I kinda think it won't be as bad as I first expected.They do care about audience response and this was probably one of their worst received storylines,I don't think I read one good review,so there's a good chance imo we see less of BM and the kid after the drama around them is over, than originally planed.

Edited December 15, 2015 by tangerine95

[EmilyBettFan]

No - I was thinking of seasons 1 through 3, plus the nine episodes of this season.

Sorry for not being clear!

oh I see. No worries!

[EmilyBettFan]

At least they try and don't give up.

I guess so. But them doing it is almost always in some sort of retaliation.

[kismet]

In light of the Villains conversation in the Spoilers thread and what they intend to do for future seasons

 

As a non-comic reader I have no idea how many more Major Villains can they elevate to full season baddie, but I do recall articles saying that GA had a small amount of actual villains or archenemies. So I wonder if they will run out at some point. I'm actually wondering if they might be out of the good ones to translate to the screen. I also believe that MM/Dark Archer will remain a part of the show as a frenemy until the final season when he will be the penultimate villain, which is technically s6 right now. I can't see them making MM/DA the big baddie again until the show is ending or JB/SA want out.

 

I also wonder if they are unrealistically stalling the mayoral election until the end of s4, so that s5 the Mafias (Bratva, Triad, etc) can move back to town when DD leaves and become the big Baddies. The writers can then have Mayor OQ fight the mafias by the light of day & TA by night. But the structure can be more VOTW like s1 where there are different heads or factions of the Mafia that need to be shut down only to have another part rise to takes it place. TA will be metaphorically fighting a Mafia Hydra. It would probably feel a lot like a supped version of s1, with a little of the other seasons thrown in. It would also explain why they held off on the Bratva flashbacks until s5. They can then set up some parallels and rivalries amongst OQ's mafia interactions in the FB that then trickle over into present day.

 

It also makes me think that if they are going to bring back the Crime Families, losing either of the Lances make it harder to tell the story since you need a police connection and if you intend to prosecute you need a law connection. It also makes me think that the writers will chicken out and kill

Nyssa

instead. That they will retroactively go back and twist their wording from the initial interviews to make

Nyssa

fit the bill. And it will be an even bigger gotcha in MG's eyes, because fans & media alike have been spending months speculating on the main cast and then they come in last minute with a switcheroo.

[Primal Slayer]

There are still a couple of really good villains they could use for season long big bads, but the thing with Green Arrow-centric villains is that they have pretty much butchered the ones they've translated.

[way2interested]

I also wonder if they are unrealistically stalling the mayoral election until the end of s4, so that s5 the Mafias (Bratva, Triad, etc) can move back to town when DD leaves and become the big Baddies. The writers can then have Mayor OQ fight the mafias by the light of day & TA by night. But the structure can be more VOTW like s1 where there are different heads or factions of the Mafia that need to be shut down only to have another part rise to takes it place. TA will be metaphorically fighting a Mafia Hydra. It would probably feel a lot like a supped version of s1, with a little of the other seasons thrown in. It would also explain why they held off on the Bratva flashbacks until s5. They can then set up some parallels and rivalries amongst OQ's mafia interactions in the FB that then trickle over into present day.

 

It also makes me think that if they are going to bring back the Crime Families, losing either of the Lances make it harder to tell the story since you need a police connection and if you intend to prosecute you need a law connection. It also makes me think that the writers will chicken out and kill

Nyssa

instead. That they will retroactively go back and twist their wording from the initial interviews to make

Nyssa

fit the bill. And it will be an even bigger gotcha in MG's eyes, because fans & media alike have been spending months speculating on the main cast and then they come in last minute with a switcheroo.

I always had a feeling that that would be how they would reintroduce the Bratva into the story, having a Mafia story in the present to parallel the Bratva in the past, but I would wonder how they would make it the big bad for the entire season. The big bad usually has something to do with the comics, so I kind of want to go back and see anyone would fit. Honestly, at this point, I would love a female big bad just to mix things up a bit.

 

As for the possible death, I still think they might go with Lance. For the police connection, Oliver being mayor gives them a new police connection, plus an opportunity to create a new character to take over the the department (kind of like what they're doing with Patty on the Flash). I don't think that they would go for any other character not seen in 401, since anything else would honestly seem like a cop-out (yes, I know that these are the Arrow writers that we're talking about, but still).