Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Danny Franks]

Berlanti and Kreisberg WERE developing a Booster Gold show before that got shelved and they moved on to Arrow:

 

 

That would have been sooo bad, I actually wish it had happened. Booster Gold is terrible.

[somewhereother]

Is delusion a stage of grief? Because I am really hoping for any possibility that the whole thing is an elaborate fake out and this was a way for Sara to shed the identity of 'Canary' and choose another. 

 

Why would they go to the trouble to insist that Sara was a hero, only to take her out like a villain. It was literally overkill how much they emphasised her dead-ness.  I am hoping for a massive bait and switch that it is part of the identity arc of the season and though the Canary is dead Sara will still be alive.

 

I know it is delusional, but I just can't fathom that they have been able to spend 3 years working on a motivation for Laurel and it ends up being Bruce Wayne lite.

"darkness, no sister, continued darkness, more darkness, get it, the opposite of light" - modified untitled self portrait from the lego movie.

[foreverevolving]

I know it is delusional,

Nope; And Welcome.

We don't hand out straight jackets here at Chateau Arrow (unless you're the count). Free coffee, Mint chip ice cream and Italian food are served on a regular basis. Please be advised only two colors are allowed to be worn: Forest Green and shades of red (pink is also allowed).

We binge watch Olicity Vid's religiously follow the Captain on facebook. And while some may bring it up, the character referenced as "Fakanary"- does not actually exist, she is but a nightmare one of our previous "residents" conjured in her mind.

 

We do hope you'll enjoy your stay.

Edited October 12, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Tangerine]

Somebody mentioned in the Laurel thread that this whole arc feels like they're trying to push the reset button on Laurel so they can start over. But the problem is audiences who have been watching the show can't just forget the Laurel they already know, despite how half-baked of a character she might be.

 

With that being said, since we are obviously stuck with Laurel here's my hope for her character: given what we've seen of Laurel's character from season 2, the devastation of losing Sara again should cause her to stumble and possibly fall off the wagon again. I hate that they killed Sara to prop up Laurel, but since it's happened now what I want to see is Laurel go completely self-destructive and crazy. I want her to go completely off the rails, get too drunk, get into bar fights and make bad decisions. I want her to be jaded and world-weary, and have no idea what to do with all of this that's bubbling inside of her before somebody is finally able to get through to her. And I want it to last for more than 20 minutes like her previous alcohol and pill addiction.

 

Of course all of this is contingent on KC being able to pull it off. So....

Edited October 13, 2014 by Tangerine

[SleepDeprived]

Of course all of this is contingent on KC being able to pull it off. So....

 

We're shit out of luck?

 

It's been two years. I hope her acting (and the writing for her) gets better but I don't have much faith. I've gone from being excited about KC as Laurel, to extremely disappointed, to ambivalent, to indifferent, and, with the recent events, to intermittent animosity. At this point, I can only hope that, maybe, I can revert back to being just indifferent about her. I, also, hope that they don't end up taking too much time away from other characters I do like with whatever "heroic" (it's in the comics!) journey Laurel's going to be on. Because:

[tv echo]

I understand they have hired

Wildcat who may well do preliminary training

but to give the good stuff to Nyssa would be so much more meaningful,

It's a tempting thought but I can think of two reasons why it's not going to happen on the show. Nyssa is an assassin and they want to keep Laurel on the good side otherwise they might just as well have kept Sara. But the bigger reason is that it takes years to learn skills to that kind of level. Nyssa isn't going to hang around Starling City, putting her life on hold for 3 years to train Laurel, maybe longer since Laurel has a day job, and the EPs aren't going to send Laurel off the show to Nanda Parbat while she trains.  A time jump for Laurel's character would make the viewers who care about all the other characters and want to see their development furious.

I agree that Nyssa has neither the time nor any motivation to train Laurel.  She is still an LOA member with obligations.  Whatever limited time she can spend in Starling City, she'll be spending it tracking down Sara's killer, not training Laurel.  She's already a trained assassin with fighting, killing and tracking skills.  She doesn't need Laurel.  And what's her motivation for training Laurel?  She's not going to do it out of the goodness of her heart.  She's a killer.  The last time she saw Laurel she knocked her out with a dart.  Ra's is not going to allow LOA training to be wasted on anyone other than someone joining the LOA - which brings me to my main point here.

 

While I fear that Sara's death means that Laurel will become the Black Canary (duh), if that has to happen, then I hope that Laurel's becoming the Black Canary will mean her exit from the show.  If for whatever half-baked reason the LOA wants to train 30-year-old lawyer Laurel, then have Nyssa agree to train her - whether in Starling City or somewhere else - in exchange for Laurel agreeing to join the LOA as an assassin.  Then, after Sara's killer is caught, Laurel must leave Starling City (and the show) to join the LOA.  That way, she'll only return to the show on a recurring basis or not at all.

Edited October 13, 2014 by tv echo

[AustenChick]

I think they killed Sara ecause her story is too much like Oliver's -- a person that lost their humanity trying to be a hero. Laurel gets a new and different trajectory story wise -- coping with her sister's death and seeing if she should take over. I think Laurel's training will be like Roy's -- we won't see much of it but over the season into next -- she'll become a better fighter.

 

I also think Sara's back story will help make out a more fully fleshed arc for the character that at least might help us understand how she came to be what she is. Laurel's exploration of this could the motivator for these discoveries.

[catrox14]

I think they killed Sara ecause her story is too much like Oliver's -- a person that lost their humanity trying to be a hero. Laurel gets a new and different trajectory story wise -- coping with her sister's death and seeing if she should take over. I think Laurel's training will be like Roy's -- we won't see much of it but over the season into next -- she'll become a better fighter.

 

I also think Sara's back story will help make out a more fully fleshed arc for the character that at least might help us understand how she came to be what she is. Laurel's exploration of this could the motivator for these discoveries.

do you mean sarah or Laurel? I thought Sarah arc was well fleshed out. I don't need to see her assassinate anyone to know exactly what made her kill. It's easy enough to surmise she was forced into it through threats to her family or friends. Or she wanted to mete out her pain on others for what she went through. Either one works because she worked to overcome that part of her and trying to be a hero even when she didn't think she was.

Sorry but for me Laurel would be going the path of do it for my sister which I just don't buy given her crappy relationship with her. And if she does it for vengeance and great justice well Oliver is already doing that. Once more Laurel has no relevancy and to keep her on the show, they keep putting herhey keep putting her in situations that are totally inorganic to the story and the character.

My hope is this ends up with her failing and her failure leaves her dead or out of starling city.

I

[Sakura12]

Sara's story wasn't that similar to Oliver's. Oliver was motivated by revenge to become a vigilante, Sara was motivated to save women from abusive men, she wasn't even interested in revenge against Slade for what he did to her. She was after him because he was hurting others.  

 

Laurel will be motivated by revenge, just like Oliver, Helena, Slade, Malcolm, Thea and in a sense Diggle when he was after Deadshot for killing his brother. So we'll be seeing the same story for the 5th time, this time we get to see it twice with Thea and Laurel. Yay! :rolleyes: 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Sakura12

[SonofaBiscuit]

If the EPs are dead set on keeping Laurel, I would like to see her "Am I me, or am I my sister?" arc end with the conclusion that she's just plain old Laurel Lance.  Have her struggle with her training, let her try to go out and kick some ass but fail miserably, have her accidentally kill an innocent person and feel the guilt of that.  Not everyone is meant to be a hero, and maybe Laurel is one of those people. 

 

What do you think the EPs will do if can't sell the Laurel is a hero arc?  They just killed their back up BC (not that I consider Sara a backup...she was Black Canary as far as I'm concerned).  Will they eliminate BC from the story altogether, or do you think that they might go with Sin or Thea as a viable alternative?  There is always the possibility, of course, that the EPs will just continue to push Laurel even if that arc in an epic fail. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[Sunshine]

Sara's story wasn't that similar to Oliver's. Oliver was motivated by revenge to become a vigilante, Sara was motivated to save women from abusive men, she wasn't even interested in revenge against Slade for what he did to her. She was after him because he was hurting others.  

 

Laurel will be motivated by revenge, just like Oliver, Helena, Slade, Malcolm, Thea and in a sense Diggle when he was after Deadshot for killing his brother. So we'll be seeing the same story for the 5th time, this time we get to see it twice with Thea and Laurel. Yay! :rolleyes: 

??? Oliver became the vigilante to "right his family's wrongs".  Is atoning for a perceived crime committed by you/your family revenge?  I will concede that his methods were a little brutal until Diggle and Felicity came along, but still.

 

 If Sara's motive is to save women from abusive men perhaps it is because of what she suffered (which we haven't seen). Wouldn't that make it revenge also?

 

Both were attempting to stop further suffering. 

 

Helena, Slade & Malcolm wanted revenge. 

 

Diggle may have wanted revenge but I think he wanted justice for his brother just as much.  This may be how it works out with Laurel too. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Sunshine

[DrSpaceman10]

Slade says to Oliver in 2x09, that Oliver told everyone that his crusade was to atone for his family's sins, but it was really to atone for his (Oliver's) sins. We still don't know the whole story about what Oliver did during the five years he was on the "island". So I think it's really more about atonement/guilt than revenge.

[ban1o]

Sara's back-story, character development and personality were very similar to Oliver's now that I think about it tbh. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[statsgirl]

I think they killed Sara because her story is too much like Oliver's -- a person that lost their humanity trying to be a hero. Laurel gets a new and different trajectory story wise -- coping with her sister's death and seeing if she should take over. I think Laurel's training will be like Roy's -- we won't see much of it but over the season into next -- she'll become a better fighter.

Oliver went after criminals to honour his father.  Barry's development is similar to Oliver's -- he started looking at criminals because his mother was murdered and his father in jail so he'd going it for his father's sake, to get him out of jail.  Roy wants to fight because there are bad guys and the Arrow helped save his life so he wants to be like the Arrow.  If Laurel becomes the BC to get vengeance for Sara, then she will be like Oliver and Barry, fighting back guys for the sake of someone in her life who was hurt by them.

 

Sara's story is most similar to Roy's because both of them are fighting for others because they've both been hurt, know what it's like, and don't want it to happen to other people.  What Sara had in common with Oliver is the island but their experiences were very different.  Even though they both done Laurel wrong, after all the trauma they both went through later, that would be a mere blip on the screen.

 

While I fear that Sara's death means that Laurel will become the Black Canary (duh), if that has to happen, then I hope that Laurel's becoming the Black Canary will mean her exit from the show.  If for whatever half-baked reason the LOA wants to train 30-year-old lawyer Laurel, then have Nyssa agree to train her - whether in Starling City or somewhere else - in exchange for Laurel agreeing to join the LOA as an assassin.  Then, after Sara's killer is caught, Laurel must leave Starling City (and the show) to join the LOA.  That way, she'll only return to the show on a recurring basis or not at all.

From your keyboard to the EP's ears.

 

What do you think the EPs will do if can't sell the Laurel is a hero arc?  They just killed their back up BC (not that I consider Sara a backup...she was Black Canary as far as I'm concerned).  Will they eliminate BC from the story altogether, or do you think that they might go with Sin or Thea as a viable alternative?  There is always the possibility, of course, that the EPs will just continue to push Laurel even if that arc in an epic fail. 

Sadly, I think they killed their back-up BC precisely in order to sell the Laurel is a hero arc because now she can't fail to be BC.  (Personally I'd buy Sin over Laurel as BC but, you know, comics!)    If Sara were alive and physically healthy, many people wouldn't accept the idea of Laurel as BC even with the name and likely the EPs didn't want the audience split.   I think most of the audience will accept her as a substitute as long as the show is good, it's only those like me who are too invested in this show or who love the BC of the comics for whom it's going to suck.

 

 I really wish they had put Sara in a wheelchair instead of killing her. It would have motivated Laurel almost as well, Sara could have helped train her, and the Oracle would be ready to go.

[ban1o]

Oliver went after criminals to honour his father.  Barry's development is similar to Oliver's -- he started looking at criminals because his mother was murdered and his father in jail so he'd going it for his father's sake, to get him out of jail.  Roy wants to fight because there are bad guys and the Arrow helped save his life so he wants to be like the Arrow.  If Laurel becomes the BC to get vengeance for Sara, then she will be like Oliver and Barry, fighting back guys for the sake of someone in her life who was hurt by them.

 

Barry's development isn't really like Oliver's. Barry is saving people because it's the right thing to do and he has the ability to now, I thought that was established on the show when he fought stood up for those kids getting bullied. It has nothing to with revenge. Finding out who killed his mother is just a side note which he think he's is able to do now. It wasn't his main motivation for fighting against the weather wizard. 

 

Anyway I kinda agree that although Sara's motivation is slightly different than Oliver's, her background (her going missing from many years and being trained by someone) to her personality and development, (doesn't want to be a killer and would rather be a hero) is very similar to Oliver's. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[statsgirl]

You're right, Barry wants to do it because it's the right thing. But he also wants to do it to get his dad out of jail, that's what he told Felicity in The Scientist.

 

I think Oliver didn't mind being a killer at all when he first got to Starling City. It was Diggle somewhat, then Felicity walking out and finally Tommy dying that pushed him not to kill.  Sara, on the other hand, arrived in present day Starling City on the run from the LoA because she didn't want to kill.

 

If Laurel is going to be trained by

Ted Grant

or even by Nyssa as speculated above, she's going to be trained by someone else too.  So what Oliver and Sara really have in common is the five years away and what they went through during the first two.

 

Laurel's arc is probably going to be about vengeance for Sara's killing. At this point there's no other reason for her to become a vigilante (I can't say 'superhero' in connection with Laurel.)  It's kind of ironic that they have been selling Laurel as fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves all along whereas except for a couple of episodes at CNRI, she's been in it for herself, unlike Sara, Barry and even Roy.

[ban1o]

You're right, Barry wants to do it because it's the right thing. But he also wants to do it to get his dad out of jail, that's what he told Felicity in The Scientist.

 

I think Oliver didn't mind being a killer at all when he first got to Starling City. It was Diggle somewhat, then Felicity walking out and finally Tommy dying that pushed him not to kill.  Sara, on the other hand, arrived in present day Starling City on the run from the LoA because she didn't want to kill.

 

lol I don't want to go around in circles but even when Sra first showed up she was still killing people. (like the dollmaker) it was throughout the season she developed from not killing people as much. So I do think that development was similar to Oliver's and the fact that she dissapeared and was away for 5 years and everything. 

 

I don't necessarily think that Laurel's main motivation to be BC will just  vengeance for her sister's death, because after she gets revenge there's no reason to be BC anymore, I think may be more to honour her sister, or due to her sisters inspiration. But I'll wait an see how it plays out. 

[statsgirl]

Sara was still killing people when she thought there was no alternate, like when Roy was mirakuru ragey, but she didn't want to kill people any more if she didn't have to.  Oliver really didn't care at that point.

 

I fear they are going to make Laurel's motivation for staying a vigilante "Dinah Laurel Lance, always saving the world" when what they have shown us on screen is that there is no one on this show more concerned about herself and not other people.  To honor his father made sense for Oliver because his father handed him a notebook, said 'right my wrongs' and shot himself so that Oliver could live, and to honor Tommy because Tommy was appalled at Oliver The Killer.   I hope they don't to that 'to honour my sister route' with Laurel because Sara was an assassin -- is she going to become an assassin and carry on Sara's work?

[tv echo]

I was reading over on the Heartaches, Bromances & True Love thread about Oliver's relationship with Felicity.  My fear is that the EPs will use Felicity in the same way that they've used Sara - to help Laurel.  As we've all speculated, Sara's death will likely be used to start and motivate Laurel's journey to become the Black Canary.  Once Laurel is fighting side-by-side with Oliver, they will likely bond.  This season, Oliver has to come to grips with whether he can have a personal life and romantic relationship with someone he loves and still be the Arrow.  We've speculated that by the end of the season, Oliver will resolve this conflict and decide that he can have a real relationship with Felicity.  What if Felicity helps Oliver grow into this person who can commit to a real relationship only to have something happen to her so that Oliver turns to Laurel, and Laurel reaps the benefits of that as well (namely, Felicity helps Oliver become a better man, and Laurel gets that better man)?  Then you have both Sara and Felicity being used to contribute to the growth of the two main superheros, Green Arrow & Black Canary, and to their ultimate reconciliation.  That is one of my greatest fears with this show.

Edited October 14, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

I like to think of the premiere as a stop, reset and play pilot of Arrow. I think the premiere made it very clear where Oliver's affections lie and also where he's at mentally. I don't know what they plan to do with Laurel and Oliver but I do think they've chosen a path romantically for Oliver and I don't think Laurel will turn into something that threats Olicity. When they broke up it seemed more like a pause than an end. I like to think of it as the end of the beginning for Oliver and Felicity.

I don't like they way they ended Sara's life (at all) but at the same time her death was very much to do with Laurel's journey. There wasn't anything in place in the premiere that made me think Laurel will impede on Olicity's journey, as much as Laurel's own journey.

[dtissagirl]

The way they went about killing Sara tells me they believe Laurel's destiny is as important as Oliver's to them. Which is a move I disagree with, but because I watch this show for Felicity and Diggle more than any other characters, I'm still invested.

 

[Oliver is okay too, but if I'm totally honest, my "one true" Oliver lives in another universe where he married another blond hacker, so I already got me a really good Oliver story to cherish.]

 

I have no idea if Laurel's destiny still includes the GA/BC romance part of it for the EPs -- right now I think that no, it doesn't. But If I get even a little hint of Felicity being used to prop a Laurel/Oliver romance, I'm out. I'm resigned to Felicity, and probably Diggle too, being used to prop Laurel as a sympathetic character this season, but that romance is my crossing the line moment where I quit and never look back, except with resentment.

Edited October 14, 2014 by dancingnancy

[NumberCruncher]

Completely agree with both your posts, @ArrowLimbo and @dancingnancy. I don't see any indication that they plan to have Oliver and Laurel romantically involved anymore (friends/fighting partners is a different story). If anything, they seemed to put that final nail in the idea during their hallway fight last season. I remember even being a little shocked at how bitter and brutal it was with Oliver literally screaming in her face and Laurel flat-out telling him to go fuck himself in sanitized TV speak.

I also got the impression that what Marc Guggenheim said last week with "never say never" to a GA/BC romance was only meant as a CYA in case something were to happen if certain actors were to leave the show and they got stuck story-wise. Of course any showrunner is going to dangle the possibility open because TV show politics are always unpredictable but that doesn't mean they aren't following a plan. I think that long-term plan is evolving Oliver Queen into a fully functioning, well-adjusted human being who just happens to be a superhero. To get there, they know they have to have people who will help move towards that goal. The producers are anything but subtle in their symbolism. They've always used light, whether it be in dialogue or in a background shot, as something the dark Oliver is missing. I can only really think of one instance where it was associated with Laurel but I can think of multiple times it has been used either directly or indirectly with Felicity--so much so that I don't think they could hit us over the head with it any more if they tried, heh. So I'm not worried.

That all being said, should all the groundwork the producers have laid over 2+ seasons just blow up in our faces, I'll be right there joining you at the exit. I'd honestly be okay if Olicity doesn't work out (I'd be a bit sad though), but the thought of Lauriver provokes an actual physical revulsion in me. Furthermore I'm not here for watching either Diggle or Felicity being sacrificed for or used to prop other characters. I never watch/leave shows for just one character but even I have my limits when the plot descends into the depths of utter suck.

Edited October 14, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[tv echo]

I really, really hope you guys are right.  But I remember a time when some fans were convinced that the EPs had committed to Sara as the Black Canary and dropped their plans to have Laurel take over that role.  Yet here we are - Sara's dead and her jacket & mask have literally been handed to Laurel.  That's why I'm afraid that a fully evolved Oliver will also be handed to Laurel as the endgame.

 

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst!

Edited October 14, 2014 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

I really, really hope you guys are right.  But I remember a time when some fans were convinced that the EPs had committed to Sara as the Black Canary and dropped their plans to have Laurel take over that role.  Yet here we are - Sara's dead and her jacket & mask have literally been handed to Laurel.  That's why I'm afraid that a fully evolved Oliver will also be handed to Laurel as the endgame.

 

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst!

Personally I never thought they planned to make Sara BC over Laurel. Never giving Caity Lotz "regular" status made that pretty obvious. Having Laurel envy Sara's kick-assedness ("That's the Canary") and nickname, making Oliver compliment her bow and arrow skills, and showing Sara handing over the jacket to her were huge anvils too. I think most people knew Sara's time was limited which is why she had been on constant death watch since late S2. On the other hand, there really haven't been any hints whatsoever at a Laurel/Oliver romance. Even when Laurel gave her big, dramatic speech to Oliver back in 2x22 it didn't play as romantic as much as desperate.

But I think your prepare for the worst mantra is appropriate. That's exactly why I'm not letting myself get too attached to Olicity. This is The CW after all.

[dtissagirl]

"Assume crash positions" is my TV watching M.O. anyway. If Buffy taught me anything at all, it was that. :)

[AustenChick]

Yeah, I don't think there was ever a plan to make Sara the full fledged BC. If you recall, Sara was only called The Canary. Laurel, I think, will become a version of that as BC in Season 3.

 

About Olicity -- this is what I think -- I think a lot of people were speculating about the finale last year and what Oliver's "I love you" to Felicity meant -- but I think that with this premiere they wanted to answer the Felicity vs. Laurel question once and for all. Oliver has never, ever said as much about his past to Laurel as he has with Felicity. I do think the season three arc is about the two of them relationship wise. I also think that the showrunners wanted to answer that love question so that story could be set aside for now and Oliver could be more involved in whatever antagonist conflict that they're setting up for Season 3.

Edited October 14, 2014 by AustenChick

[Guest]

I have similar concerns to everyone else re: Olicity and whether they're maybe getting them out the way and still intend to have L/O as endgame, even though I honestly can't see a logical and believable way of them doing that. But there is one thing that is giving me hope and it was the last thing Sara said to Oliver:

 

"We are not our masks and we need people in our lives who don't wear one."

 

With Laurel working her way towards becoming BC she will be yet another person in Oliver's life who wears a mask. I think that's important otherwise this piece of dialog would be pretty pointless. I do think it links into Oliver needing both Felicity and Diggle but I also think it spoke more about his romantic relationship with Felicity than anything else. 

[dtissagirl]

I actually love it that Diggle and Felicity are not wearing masks. They need codenames STAT for secure comms reasons [and, you know, to protect their identities from police and villains alike. This fails Superheroing 101 so badly, it makes me SAD], but they don't have to become codenamed uniformed masked superheroes for them to be important to the cause, or relevant to Oliver's story. In fact, I really hope the EPs realize they can tie it to Sara's line and make their lack of masks a motif in Oliver's struggle with his own identity.

 

The entire point of this season seems to be to get Oliver to a point where he realizes he doesn't HAVE to choose between being Arrow or being Oliver Queen, but that he can be both. But I think it has to be more than that. My hope is that Oliver also realizes that being both doesn't mean keeping those lives completely compartmentalized and separated. I don't think he has to come out to the public in a I-am-Iron-Man way, but balancing between being Arrow and Oliver means some people will be part of both of those lives [cue Felicity and Diggle], and that THAT is okay.

 

But since it's not just Oliver struggling with figuring out who he is and who he wants to be, I think it's relevant that the three of them made clear cut decisons in 3x01: Oliver decided to be The Arrow, Diggle decided fatherhood trumps superheroing, Felicity decided to walk away from Oliver. I'm guessing all of those decisions will be walked back as the season progresses, and I hope that the writers can find good ways to paralell their journeys.

[KenyaJ]

About Olicity -- this is what I think -- I think a lot of people were speculating about the finale last year and what Oliver's "I love you" to Felicity meant -- but I think that with this premiere they wanted to answer the Felicity vs. Laurel question once and for all.

 

A few days ago, I was thinking back on Stephen's comments during SDCC that "the ship has sailed" on Oliver's romances with Sara and Laurel and we'd never see either of those pairings "together together again."  Well, he was obviously 100% right with regard to Sara, so I'm choosing to believe he was with regard to Laurel, too.  Obviously, unpredictable shit can happen when it comes to real life and people leaving the show, so I think there will always be that outside chance that the show might end with Oliver and Laurel together. I honestly don't see it happening, though. For one thing, Stephen and Katie couldn't generate chemistry if you spotted them a lab and 12 Bunsen burners, and I doubt that will ever change, since true chemistry can't be manufactured. Secondly, the scenes in the restaurant and Lyla's hospital room established that meeting Felicity fundamentally changed Oliver and the trajectory he was on when he returned from the island. That's the kind of narrative that elevates someone to "love of my life" status, and from this point on, it's going to be hard to put Oliver with Laurel (or anyone, really) and not have it feel like he's just settling because he can't be with the woman he really wants. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it would require a level of writing that exceeds this show's capabilities.

 

I don't think he has to come out to the public in a I-am-Iron-Man way, but balancing between being Arrow and Oliver means some people will be part of both of those lives [cue Felicity and Diggle], and that THAT is okay.

 

Stephen has said before how much he wishes Oliver could pull an "Iron Man." This weekend, during his NYCC Q&A, he said the writers also hate the secrecy aspect . Now that we're down to one regular character who doesn't know the Arrow's true identity, I hope they can drop this conceit and let Oliver Arrow it up with the public's full knowledge.

[Guest]

I actually love it that Diggle and Felicity are not wearing masks. They need codenames STAT for secure comms reasons [and, you know, to protect their identities from police and villains alike. This fails Superheroing 101 so badly, it makes me SAD], but they don't have to become codenamed uniformed masked superheroes for them to be important to the cause, or relevant to Oliver's story. In fact, I really hope the EPs realize they can tie it to Sara's line and make their lack of masks a motif in Oliver's struggle with his own identity.

 

Same. And I think that scene where Oliver goes to the hospital and the shot focuses on him looking in on Felicity and Diggle (with Lyla and the baby) is really important. These are the two people on 'his crusade' who don't wear masks and he NEEDS them in his life. I really hope that's where they are going with this struggle of his this season. 

[NumberCruncher]

Secondly, the scenes in the restaurant and Lyla's hospital room established that meeting Felicity fundamentally changed Oliver and the trajectory he was on when he returned from the island. That's the kind of narrative that elevates someone to "love of my life" status, and from this point on, it's going to be hard to put Oliver with Laurel (or anyone, really) and not have it feel like he's just settling because he can't be with the woman he really wants. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it would require a level of writing that exceeds this show's capabilities.

This thought crossed my mind as well. We've never seen Oliver say the kind of things he did in the restaurant to any other females on the show. Also, could the producers have found a more intense situation than to stick Oliver in a hospital room looking at Felicity admiring a newborn baby while Diggle is spouting lines like "when I looked at her my whole universe changed"? That's not the kind of thing you give to your average, run-of-the-mill TV couple. If the show is just using Oliver and Felicity as a placeholder until Oliver and Laurel get together then they're doing a really crappy job of it.

[statsgirl]

Someone, I think it was Bkwurm1 but I can't find the post right now. speculated that this season was going to be Oliver realizing that he can be both Oliver Queen and the Arrow, and then at the end of the season, with Roy as Arsenal, Laurel as BC, Thea maybe taking on a superhero identity and 

Ray Palmer becoming the Atom

, Oliver will step back from being the Arrow because the city is being taken care of and try just being Oliver Queen for the start of season 4 until he gets pulled back in.

 

Which led me to my fear -- that with Roy, Laurel, maybe Thea and others assuming superhero roles, there will be two tier-status, in which there are those who are superheros like Arrow, Arsenal, Black Canary etc., and there will be below them those who don't have superhero identities like Diggle and Felicity.  They would be important, yes, but still be below the ones in costumes and masks. And since Diggle and Felicity are two of my three remaining favorite characters, I wouldn't like them to be relegated to a lesser status.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think there was ever a plan to make Sara the full fledged BC. If you recall, Sara was only called The Canary. Laurel, I think, will become a version of that as BC in Season 3.

I agree that was the original plan. But in the way that they made Felicity a regular cast member, I thought they recognized the value they had in Sara as BC and would keep her, giving Laurel something else.

 

With Sara's death and the way they killed her off, I don't trust any of these EPs as far as I can throw them, which not being Sara is not at all.  And that includes making Oliver and Felicity a place-holder couple till Felicity dies mid-season 4 so Oliver can have even more manpain and end up with Laurel at  the end.

Edited October 14, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

Nope nope nope. The premiere pretty much showed us what Oliver yearns for and with whom. They weren't subtle at all about it. The dinner scene showed us a glimpse of what Oliver and Felicity being together could be like. And let me just say, me like. A lot.

[SonofaBiscuit]

With Sara's death and the way they killed her off, I don't trust any of these EPs as far as I can throw them, which not being Sara is not at all.  And that includes making Oliver and Felicity a place-holder couple till Felicity dies mid-season 4 so Oliver can have even more manpain and end up with Laurel at  the end.

 

This is kind of where I'm at as well.  At this point in the show, it feels like we're going with Felicity and Oliver as the couple, but it will always be in the back of my mind that the EPs may not be able to resist sticking Laurel and Oliver together in the last season or even the very last episode.  I just don't trust them.

[wonderwall]

The premiere pretty much showed us what Oliver yearns for and with whom.

You hit the nail on the head. Some people would argue that what Oliver wants is set in stone whereas the person with whom he wants it with is variable. As in it can change. However, I didn't see it that way at all. Oliver looked at Felicity in a way I've never seen him look at a woman before. He looked almost hopeful, lighter, and so damn in love during that date. He wore his heart on his sleeve that night and it was all because of Felicity. And it's obvious that while Diggle was talking about his whole universe changing that Oliver was thinking about and looking at Felicity. That's not nothing and it's not to be taken lightly. This episode showed that Felicity is it for Oliver and now I understand what Stephen was saying at SDCC. If Oliver does somehow move on from Felicity it would undercut everything they're trying to sell about the relationship as well as the characters progress

[TanyaKay]

This thought crossed my mind as well. We've never seen Oliver say the kind of things he did in the restaurant to any other females on the show. Also, could the producers have found a more intense situation than to stick Oliver in a hospital room looking at Felicity admiring a newborn baby while Diggle is spouting lines like "when I looked at her my whole universe changed"? That's not the kind of thing you give to your average, run-of-the-mill TV couple. If the show is just using Oliver and Felicity as a placeholder until Oliver and Laurel get together then they're doing a really crappy job of it.

 

Oh Oliver and Felicity are the endgame couple.

You do not have the male lead of the show look at the woman he is romantically pursuing with a new born baby with tears and hearts in his eyes with lines like 'she changed my universe going in the background. The fact that Stephen Amell sold it some solid performance also helped.

[ban1o]

I've said it before, and I'll said it again, although Sara was a popular character, Felicity is by far the character with the biggest online fanbase and that gets the most praise/ They won't kill her off and risk angering many fans and losing many viewers.  Even if she doesn't end up with Oliver and they are "placeholder" couple, she will stay alive. If you don't trust the creators creatively (and I don't blame you, necessarily), at least trust them financially lol. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by ban1o

[SleepDeprived]

I've said it before, and I'll said it again, although Sara was a popular character, Felicity is by far the character with the biggest online fanbase and that gets the most praise/ They won't kill her off and risk angering many fans and losing many viewers.  Even if she doesn't end up with Oliver and they are "placeholder" couple, she will stay alive. If you don't trust the creators creatively (and I don't blame you, necessarily), at least trust them financially lol. 

 

But I don't trust them financially, either? At least, I don't think they know how assets, liabilities, and the market work, anyway. Lol. The way that no one can make complete sense of how the Queens lost everything leading to Oliver becoming so poor that Felicity is buying him a bed and he's living in the basement of a condemned building tells me that their grasp of finances are possibly not sound. I do trust the WB/DC/CW execs desire to keep the show profitable, though. So, should the Arrow writers/EPs inexplicably want Felicity, a character that rivals and even exceeds the titled character's popularity,  to join Sara/Moira/Shado in the afterlife then I suspect someone higher-up might gently suggest that they rethink their decisions.

 

I definitely agree, though, that if there is anyone who is the least likely to get killed off on this show, other than Oliver, it's Felicity. She might be Oliver's endgame (which the premiere heavily suggested) or she might not be. Either way, she won't die anytime this season or the next. A comment I read on Tumblr pretty much summed it up: "The day that the writers of Arrow decide to get rid of Felicity is the day they decide that they are okay with being cancelled". She's going to stick around, at least, until EBR decides to leave or the writers pay homage to HIMYM in the series finale.

[foreverevolving]

I've said it before, and I'll said it again, although Sara was a popular character, Felicity is by far the character with the biggest online fanbase and that gets the most praise/ They won't kill her off and risk angering many fans and losing many viewers.  Even if she doesn't end up with Oliver and they are "placeholder" couple, she will stay alive. If you don't trust the creators creatively (and I don't blame you, necessarily), at least trust them financially lol. 

Unless they wait until the very last episodes of the show. Kill her off right before it's about to go off the air anyway, and have Fakanary console Oliver which will push them together.

that's the nightmare i had the other night.. i fear for it to come true.

[ban1o]

 She's going to stick around, at least, until EBR decides to leave or the writers pay homage to HIMYM in the series finale.

omg lol . I wish their were emoticons on this site. 

But I don't trust them financially, either? At least, I don't think they know how assets, liabilities, and the market work, anyway. Lol. The way that no one can make complete sense of how the Queens lost everything leading to Oliver becoming so poor that Felicity is buying him a bed and he's living in the basement of a condemned building tells me that their grasp of finances are possibly not sound. I do trust the WB/DC/CW execs desire to keep the show profitable, though. So, should the Arrow writers/EPs inexplicably want Felicity, a character that rivals and even exceeds the titled character's popularity,  to join Sara/Moira/Shado in the afterlife then I suspect someone higher-up might gently suggest that they rethink their decisions.

 

 

 fair enough, even if the writers think it would be "clever" to kill felicity, there's no way the CW execs would let them. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by ban1o

[BkWurm1]

I made the post about instead of Oliver learning to balance being Arrow and Oliver, him choosing to just be Oliver over in the public appearance thread. SA said something in his NYCC panel that hinted the presence of other existing heroes was going to come into play at the end of season three. And then he said he'd said too much.

It makes sense that that TPTB would not let Oliver find his balance between who he is this early in their five year plan. What I'm more curious about is whether Felicity would also bow out of the heroing gig. There might be a lot of heroes suddenly, but how many Felicity's are going to be out there?

I suppose after three years, she could have all the systems and protocols in place so maybe it wouldn't be that hard.

Of course whatever choices. Oliver makes at the end of the season won't stick long term but it could be interesting in season four seeing why Star City (I assume by then) specifically needs Oliver as it's hero.

[Ceylon5]

Well, there's plenty of work to go around.  If there are enough superheroes available, they can work in shifts - Oliver and co. can take Mondays to Thursdays, Laurel can take Fridays and Saturdays, and Ray can fill in on Sundays when it doesn't interfere with his day-job.  Barry can just pop over whenever superpowers are needed.

 

Then Felicity and Oliver will have time to date and have a normal life (yay for long weekends), and when things are really going haywire (Mirakuru soldiers spring to mind), there will be plenty of back-up.  Plus, obviously, we'd only need to see the Monday to Thursday shifts on the show (with a bit of Team Arrow's time off activities thrown in for luck), and only bother with the other superheroes during the big showdowns when they all have to work together.  

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I don't want Oliver to even attempt to hang up the hood. I don't think the resolution is going to be that he chooses to be Oliver Queen only, but that he can be both. That doesn't mean that it's an easy road for the next two (or however many) seasons. I mean, Buffy Summers was constantly trying to reconcile living a normal life with her Slayer duties. It's an ongoing struggle. At this point, Oliver's struggle is to realize that it's even possible, and to want to fight for that life.

[SonofaBiscuit]

New crazy speculation.  Sara had been injecting herself with Mirakuru and had some in her system when she fell off of the roof with three arrows in her torso.  She appears to be dead but is really only mostly dead.  Her deadish body is placed in the pine box coffin and she is buried.  Meanwhile, the Mirakuru is working through her system and healing her wounds.  She heals enough to wake up, punch through the coffin and claw her way out of the ground.  Not sure how her killer got the drop on her if she had Mirakuru in her system, but I'll leave it to the writers to figure that part out as well as any other gaping plot holes that I have missed.

Edited October 15, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[ban1o]

So what's up with Thea. Do you think Malcolm brainwashed her or that she's playing him or that' she's really on his side now? 

[wonderwall]

So what's up with Thea. Do you think Malcolm brainwashed her or that she's playing him or that' she's really on his side now? 

I'm hoping that she's humoring him and then in the end will dump him. 

I for real want to see her "use him. abuse him. lose him. "

 

Thank you Donna Meagle for your amazing quotes. 

[ban1o]

I'm hoping that she's humoring him and then in the end will dump him. 

I for real want to see her "use him. abuse him. lose him. "

 

Thank you Donna Meagle for your amazing quotes. 

lol I hope so too. I don't want her to be really evil. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I am curious about where unspoiled viewers think this season is going.  I know some people on here have friends who watch Arrow, and maybe there are people in this forum who don't read spoilers.  I'm specifically wondering what the unspoiled people think about Oliver, Laurel, and Felicity.  Where do you think their stories are going?

[HighHopes]

I am curious about where unspoiled viewers think this season is going.  I know some people on here have friends who watch Arrow, and maybe there are people in this forum who don't read spoilers.  I'm specifically wondering what the unspoiled people think about Oliver, Laurel, and Felicity.  Where do you think their stories are going?

I told my sister about the possibility of Laurel becoming the Black Canary when we marathoned the series before the premiere, but she also doesn't read spoilers. So while not completely unspoilied, she is still a bit? Her response to this episode was "She's going to put on the mask and fight crime and not tell her dad that Sara is dead, and her dad will think that it's Sara". Which now that I think about it, I could see Laurel doing... Laurel had that super weird grin in the finale (?) when Sara saved the girl from the fire and was later called a hero for it.

[statsgirl]

That makes a kind of sense... and I think I could like psycho Laurel more than this version. But, as Oliver said, Sara's fighting skills were way more than Laurel's. Does Laurel really think she can take Sara's place?