S01.E08: Terror Camp Clear

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, Paws said:

What we are seeing with James isn't the poisoning from the tinned food, but rather the lack of Vitamin C is giving him scurvy. He has petechaie around his mouth, teeth are bleeding, and his old wounds referenced in episode 1 are now opening up. This show has turned  me into a scurvy expert and what I’ve learned is that it is a really gross way to die. There’s lots of good information here: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/scurvy-disease-discovery-jonathan-lamb/

I already knew quite a bit about scurvy thanks to watching other naval stories set in the Napoleonic & Victorian eras, but I've rarely seen the effects so graphically demonstrated.  It is brutal.

(Side note: my court had a case last summer involving child neglect so bad that the child in question had both scurvy and rickets - talk about your Victorian diseases.)

Edited to note: I don't think Tuunbaq looks much like a polar bear anymore.  He's large, white, and somewhat bear shaped, but his neck and head are something else entirely.  This isn't a judgment on the quality (or lack thereof) in the CGI - just my impression of the creature's appearance.  And it sure didn't move like a polar bear.  Let's just say I don't want it showing up on my Christmas Coke products, thank you very much.

Edited May 9, 2018 by proserpina65

[jnymph]

43 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I already knew quite a bit about scurvy thanks to watching other naval stories set in the Napoleonic & Victorian eras, but I've rarely seen the effects so graphically demonstrated.  It is brutal.

(Side note: my court had a case last summer involving child neglect so bad that the child in question had both scurvy and rickets - talk about your Victorian diseases.)

Edited to note: I don't think Tuunbaq looks much like a polar bear anymore.  He's large, white, and somewhat bear shaped, but his neck and head are something else entirely.  This isn't a judgment on the quality (or lack thereof) in the CGI - just my impression of the creature's appearance.  And it sure didn't move like a polar bear.  Let's just say I don't want it showing up on my Christmas Coke products, thank you very much.

That is so horrible about the child neglect. : (

And then you had me laughing at the bolded. 

[Crone]

The way the bear moved reminded me of those dog things in Ghostbusters. 

[proserpina65]

17 minutes ago, jnymph said:

That is so horrible about the child neglect. : (

And then you had me laughing at the bolded. 

It was a terrible case, involving a weird religious/political group, and there was other abuse going on, but all I could think was that if the vegetarian mother, who was nursing the child, had taken a few vitamins, at least the scurvy & rickets would've been prevented.

Yes, it was unfortunate that those two comments got merged together.

1 minute ago, Crone said:

The way the bear moved reminded me of those dog things in Ghostbusters. 

I had compared it to my cat, but those dog things might be even better.

[Sighed I]

2 hours ago, jnymph said:

B)  I'm holding out hope for just a tiny bit of happiness.  Just a morsel.  Pleeeeease ?!

Me too! It really says something that we care enough to hope for this even knowing they're never seen from again. Right now I'm in the "maybe a wormhole will open up and they'll end up in an alternate reality where the mission never happened though they retain the memories from this reality so their friendships remain intact" phase (excluding Hickey--he can't die soon, and painfully, enough to suit me); now that I think of it, I've been stuck at the bargaining stage for most of the show's run. ;)

I interpreted the last exchange between Lady Silence and Goodsir a little differently than some here. I got the impression she does care about him and considers him a good man--she placed her hand on his heart as they were saying their goodbyes--but his insistence that Englishmen really are good people rings hollow after everything she's seen. Her people are just as susceptible to the harsh environment as anyone else, yet when it came down to it, they chose to help these strangers while his people killed hers.

Of course we know there are many good men on these ships, but they're also a product of their culture's imperialistic attitude, Goodsir included. When he told her he wanted her to come see his country, I couldn't help but think, "Well, that would certainly make you notable, wouldn't it, Harry?" I'm not saying his offer wasn't sincere, more that even he's not fully aware of his own ambitions and motivations. After everything that happened, did he actually believe he could convince the others to accept her into their ranks? Or that she would even want to? I'm not sure he believed those things either, but still, it's incredibly naive and even selfish of him to consider putting her at that kind of risk. I guess it comes back to the fatal flaw of this entire mission--hubris. All that said, their farewell really made me sad.

Edited to add: I also hope we find out why she came along as far as she did. If the incident with her people hadn't occurred, would she have considered making the full journey? Was she protecting (some of?) them from Tuunbaq, or willing to help them try to survive, as best she could? They did help her after she cut out her tongue; maybe she wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Sighed I

[slothgirl]

39 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

I interpreted the last exchange between Lady Silence and Goodsir a little differently than some here. I got the impression she does care about him and considers him a good man--she placed her hand on his heart as they were saying their goodbyes--but his insistence that Englishmen really are good people rings hollow after everything she's seen. Her people are just as susceptible to the harsh environment as anyone else, yet when it came down to it, they chose to help these strangers while his people killed hers.

Of course we know there are many good men on these ships, but they're also a product of their culture's imperialistic attitude, Goodsir included. When he told her he wanted her to come see his country, I couldn't help but think, "Well, that would certainly make you notable, wouldn't it, Harry?" I'm not saying his offer wasn't sincere, more that even he's not fully aware of his own ambitions and motivations. After everything that happened, did he actually believe he could convince the others to accept her into their ranks? Or that she would even want to? I'm not sure he believed those things either, but still, it's incredibly naive and even selfish of him to consider putting her at that kind of risk. I guess it comes back to the fatal flaw of this entire mission--hubris. All that said, their farewell really made me sad.

 

Exactly. They may be "good men" within the confines of their narrow experience, but the racism inherent in exploration and colonization lives in almost all of them. There's a reason Hickey mutilated the 2 crew members (beyond just that he is one sick nutjob) ... It served an important purpose in his plan: They've all heard tales of settlers (invaders) being attacked by natives in the US, so it's barely a leap for them to view the Inuit as no different from an Apache. He deliberately chooses the term "braves" when describing how many "Indians" might be coming to slaughter them. He is a conniving piece of shit sociopath, and I suspect he takes pleasure in killing. But if it had better served his purpose to kill the crew members in a bloodless fashion and hide the bodies, he would have done THAT. He needed to amp up the fear factor to get access to weapons. He played on both their fears and their deep racism.

The entire expedition and crew is steeped in racist cultural mores, and as such, I sometimes find it hard to feel bad for ANY of them.  Even at their best, they exploit people and resources rather than appreciate them. Goodsir proves the depth of it with every utterance in far more subtle but significant ways than the obvious things that other crew might say or do (such as the other doctor refusing to treat LS's father, and Franklin not wanting her on the ship).

He is a good man, but it is so ingrained, he is oblivious to how even he is completely disrespectful. His need to convince her that his culture is something to see and strive for (when clearly, at least as presented here, it is HER culture that is more humanistically advanced) is sad but predictable. It's important to the presentation of the British Empire mindset that we have some characters that are "good men" and sympathetic, so that we see how deep racism, arrogance, hubris, and entitlement goes even in "good" people. For me, that is the point of the Goodsir character.

Edited May 9, 2018 by slothgirl

[Captanne]

I agree with this interpretation of Lady Silence and her consideration of Goodsir.  Remember, when she spoke to Crozier she was mad as hell -- her father had just been killed, the totems were gone, and she was frightened of Tuunbaq.  She snaps at Crozier, "You seem to want to die, all of you.  You come to this place unprepared and think you know it....." (I paraphrase.)  

So, she doesn't have a lot of understanding or affection for these suicidal men she has come to know as doing nothing but horrible things to each other.  

Now her friends have been killed by the worst of them.

I'm not surprised she is ambivalent about the men -- but I do think she respects if not pities Goodsir.

[Lamima]

LS put her hand on goodsir's right chest, not where his heart is. It looked to me like she was saying 'come no closer'. 

And all the stuff Goodsir said to her, about how he wished she could come to England, was said in English so she didnt understand a bit of it. 

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, Sighed I said:

I interpreted the last exchange between Lady Silence and Goodsir a little differently than some here. I got the impression she does care about him and considers him a good man--she placed her hand on his heart as they were saying their goodbyes--but his insistence that Englishmen really are good people rings hollow after everything she's seen

I agree with that interpretation. I think she likes and sympathizes with Goodsir (the expression on her face seemed rather sad and fond, not angry), she grew to care about him, and certainly likes and trusts him more than any of the other men, but she doesn't trust the other Englishmen in general, given their obviously imperialistic, racist society that carelessly wanders around the world for their own personal gain. She knows they will always see her and her people as terrifying savages at worst, and strange simpletons at best, and no way does she want any more to do with them. I dont think she actually wants them dead, but she does want them gone. As she told Crozier, they come up here with their flags and guns and act like they own the world, without thinking about the people already there, or thinking about what would happen if they find something they cant fight with the power of the British Empire. 

With Goodsir, he really is a very good person (plenty of the men are basically good guys at their core) but they do come from a culture that is steeped in horrible cultures norms, and that has affected all of them. Its all they know, and the idea that what they have been taught about the greatest of the Empire if bullshit would just be a shock to their systems, especially for someone as idealistic as Goodsir. Him telling Lady Silence she should come with them to London and that its a good place with good people, reminded me a lot of their first meeting on the ship when she was dragged there by Hickey and some of the others. He kept saying that Englishmen arent really like this, and that they're good, civilized people, who dont normally act like this. I think he truly believes that the Empire is a good thing and is mostly made up of good people who want to spread the ideals of civilization, science, and reason, and anything else truly hasn't sunk in for him. That doesn't make him a bad person, and as a product of his time, he is certainly much better than many of his countrymen, but he still hasn't really caught on to the truly heinous flaws in this system. Its going to be sad seeing his belief in the inherent goodness of his countrymen possibly damaged beyond repair in what is probably to come. At least, before he and everyone else inevitably die. 

That took a depressing turn...

Edited May 10, 2018 by tennisgurl

[slothgirl]

5 hours ago, Lamima said:

LS put her hand on goodsir's right chest, not where his heart is. It looked to me like she was saying 'come no closer'. 

And all the stuff Goodsir said to her, about how he wished she could come to England, was said in English so she didnt understand a bit of it. 

That's what I thought too... she was holding him away, not relating to his heart as we think of it. Even if it was where his heart is, the whole "physical heart represents romance" thing is probably not a part of her culture. Not every culture associates the heart as a symbol of love or romance.. LIFE, maybe... if they understand anatomy enough, but not necessarily LOVE.

And yeah... she didn't know what he was saying, but even if she was picking up some of it after all her time with English speakers, I think that she would have been even more "Seriously? Just stop, already!".

Edited May 10, 2018 by slothgirl

[Hazel55]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:06 PM, SimoneS said:

Collins wandering the camp high as hell would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.

Was that funny, sad... or simply sensible? He's stranded in the middle of the freezing arctic with no hope of rescue with the direct threats of slow starvation, lead poisoning, and scurvy looming over his head-- if the giant killer polar bear doesn't get him first. And if he does by some miracle make it to the winter, he can look forward to slowly freezing to death. 

If all that were going down and I discovered a bottle of cocaine laced wine, I would be all up in that shit. (Though in all seriousness... cocaine mixed with wine was prescribed as a cure all in the mid 19th century? Way to go, Victorian Era doctors! If your goal was to stop your patients hearts by prescribing uppers and downers at once, you succeeded brilliantly.) 

On 5/7/2018 at 9:35 PM, Crone said:

Great acting, good story, but I hated the stupid-looking bear. 

As did I. The bear was by far scarier when it was partially or fully hidden. A subtle, unseeable threat it far scarier than any CGI monster (no matter how brilliantly crafted) could be. Not seeing something, but knowing what a danger it represents and seeing the damage it does can be truly terrifying. For instance, in every single TV/ movie adaption of Dorian Gray, when they show the portrait, it is inevitably a disappointment. Nothing pictured on screen could ever be as horrifying as the unseeable that is left to viewers imaginations. 

Similarly, to remain effective, Tuumbaq should have remained unseen. (Or perhaps seen only in brief, fleeting glimpses, as in episode 5.)

When they had him running through the camp on all fours, he brought to mind a big white dog, which was funny, rather than scary. I kept expecting one of the crew to pick up a giant bone, call out, "Come 'ere, boy!" and throw it off into the distance, only to have Tuunbaq race off in pursuit. 

On 5/7/2018 at 11:30 PM, Paws said:

I freaking love Blanky. He’s solid, he’s smart, he’s funny, and he even outwitted the beast. He’s probably the best all around man on the ship.

"Mr. Blankey, get to cover!" Blanky: "Neptune's ball's, I'm coming with ye!" Badass. 

Line of the week: "I've shot smaller hawks then you, Hickey!"

Edited May 10, 2018 by Hazel55

[Sighed I]

15 hours ago, slothgirl said:

Exactly. They may be "good men" within the confines of their narrow experience, but the racism inherent in exploration and colonization lives in almost all of them. There's a reason Hickey mutilated the 2 crew members (beyond just that he is one sick nutjob) ... It served an important purpose in his plan: They've all heard tales of settlers (invaders) being attacked by natives in the US, so it's barely a leap for them to view the Inuit as no different from an Apache. He deliberately chooses the term "braves" when describing how many "Indians" might be coming to slaughter them. He is a conniving piece of shit sociopath, and I suspect he takes pleasure in killing. But if it had better served his purpose to kill the crew members in a bloodless fashion and hide the bodies, he would have done THAT. He needed to amp up the fear factor to get access to weapons. He played on both their fears and their deep racism.

The entire expedition and crew is steeped in racist cultural mores, and as such, I sometimes find it hard to feel bad for ANY of them.  Even at their best, they exploit people and resources rather than appreciate them. Goodsir proves the depth of it with every utterance in far more subtle but significant ways than the obvious things that other crew might say or do (such as the other doctor refusing to treat LS's father, and Franklin not wanting her on the ship).

He is a good man, but it is so ingrained, he is oblivious to how even he is completely disrespectful. His need to convince her that his culture is something to see and strive for (when clearly, at least as presented here, it is HER culture that is more humanistically advanced) is sad but predictable. It's important to the presentation of the British Empire mindset that we have some characters that are "good men" and sympathetic, so that we see how deep racism, arrogance, hubris, and entitlement goes even in "good" people. For me, that is the point of the Goodsir character.

 

Very well said. The casual racism has been difficult to watch at times, but so critical to the story, IMO. In addition to the scenes you mention, one of the exchanges I found particularly disturbing was when Goodsir is getting permission from Dr. Stanley to accompany Lady Silence to Terror. Lt. Des Voeux says something like, "Might as well write a Newfie dictionary. Or capuchin." To him, Lady Silence isn't just uncivilized; she's not even human. It was shocking to hear those words coming out of his mouth, and at the same time not shocking at all.

I agree with your assessment of Hickey's actions and choice of words (I am done with that psycho; die already! Grrr ;). Everything he says and does is calculated for a particular response, 100% self-serving. I'm convinced he would have let that tentful of men burn to their deaths if he'd thought it would've increased his chances of survival.

With Goodsir his mindset is far more subtle, but he too is a product of his times. I loved what you said about his "need to to convince her that his culture is something to see and strive for", as if she hasn't already seen more than enough. It also brought to mind the first episode when Francis and Sir John were at the theater. It underscores how deeply ingrained racism is in their society, even amongst the most "civilized" of them.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I agree with that interpretation. I think she likes and sympathizes with Goodsir (the expression on her face seemed rather sad and fond, not angry), she grew to care about him, and certainly likes and trusts him more than any of the other men, but she doesn't trust the other Englishmen in general, given their obviously imperialistic, racist society that carelessly wanders around the world for their own personal gain. She knows they will always see her and her people as terrifying savages at worst, and strange simpletons at best, and no way does she want any more to do with them. I dont think she actually wants them dead, but she does want them gone. As she told Crozier, they come up here with their flags and guns and act like they own the world, without thinking about the people already there, or thinking about what would happen if they find something they cant fight with the power of the British Empire. 

With Goodsir, he really is a very good person (plenty of the men are basically good guys at their core) but they do come from a culture that is steeped in horrible cultures norms, and that has affected all of them. Its all they know, and the idea that what they have been taught about the greatest of the Empire if bullshit would just be a shock to their systems, especially for someone as idealistic as Goodsir. Him telling Lady Silence she should come with them to London and that its a good place with good people, reminded me a lot of their first meeting on the ship when she was dragged there by Hickey and some of the others. He kept saying that Englishmen arent really like this, and that they're good, civilized people, who dont normally act like this. I think he truly believes that the Empire is a good thing and is mostly made up of good people who want to spread the ideals of civilization, science, and reason, and anything else truly hasn't sunk in for him. That doesn't make him a bad person, and as a product of his time, he is certainly much better than many of his countrymen, but he still hasn't really caught on to the truly heinous flaws in this system. Its going to be sad seeing his belief in the inherent goodness of his countrymen possibly damaged beyond repair in what is probably to come. At least, before he and everyone else inevitably die. 

That took a depressing turn...

 

The scene when she nails Crozier is one of my favorites. I love the look on Francis' face; despite him being ahead of the curve compared to most of the men, I don't think it truly hits him until that moment the sheer absurdity--and pointlessness--of it all.

I agree with your take on Goodsir. He's idealistic, caring and has such good intentions, but even he can't see that Lady Silence's people are doing perfectly fine on their own. In fact, their way of life in this place is superior to what he or his culture have to offer them. Even now, when the shit's hit the fan and everything he's relied on is crumbling all around him, he clings to this notion that it's circumstances alone which brought out this ugliness. It doesn't occur to him to look deeper, to question the role of imperialism which got them into this mess in the first place.

Regarding Lady Silence and Goodsir's farewell, I stand by my interpretation (and am glad I'm not alone in my assessment), but I do think there's room to interpret it in more than one way. A poster on another forum said he read an interview with Soo Hugh, one of the show runners, who said they purposefully didn't subtitle Goodsir's lines in that scene because it was a private moment and they wanted to leave the interpretation up to the viewer. The poster didn't provide a link to the interview; if I can find it, I'll edit my post and add it here.

Edited to add:

Apparently it was a twitter exchange. It's near the bottom of the page. Be careful as there may be spoilers; I didn't see any myself, but since I was looking for a specific post, I skimmed over the bulk of the thread.

https://theterroramc.tumblr.com/

I also found this interview:

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusive-the-terror-show-runners-talk-tuunbaq-justice-in-terror-camp-clear

Quote is from show runner David Kajganich:

Quote

I remember the day we shot that scene. I kept running up to Nive saying, "Just keep in mind, you are pissed. They have murdered your friends. What's breaking down in this group of men has now touched your community with tragedy." And she kept saying, "I can't do that." She said, "I know how my character feels about Goodsir at the end of this scene. I can't not smile with him, but I need him to know that he's good." It was wonderful.

This may be why interpretations of this scene vary. I rewatched the episode tonight. Lamima is right; she did put her hand on the right side of Harry's chest, not his left. Nevertheless, I still read it as a gesture of friendship...and being assertive, kind of like, "You're a good man, Harry, and a friend, but enough. Your people have shown me exactly who they are."

Choices like these are one of the reasons I love this show. I appreciate that the writers, actors and directors leave much open to interpretation. To me it demonstrates confidence in the storytelling and respect for the viewer's intelligence; it gives us room to find our own meaning of this very human story.

Many of us have commented at one time or another about the difficulty of keeping the characters straight. I actually wonder if that too was deliberate (though I agree it might've been helpful to have a few more blonds or redheads to differentiate some of them). I've found my experience as a viewer often mirrors what the characters are going through. First, they, and we, are thrown into the deep end, out of our element. Some of the vocabulary they use and references they make were completely foreign to me when I first started watching. I was so drawn into the story, though, I was compelled to dig deeper--What's an ice master? How can you be a surgeon but not a doctor? What the heck is a "brown study"? I guess you could say as a viewer, I had to "learn as I went", not unlike the characters, most of whom had limited to no Polar experience.

As the story unfolds and their situation grows more dire, we get to know the characters better. Those previously in the background rise to the forefront. Trust is earned and lost and earned again (and sometimes lost for good, or never earned at all). Some of them rise to the challenge, others uncover the darkness within. All are unmistakably human.

In any case, watching this show has been an emotional and intellectual journey for me. I've said it before, but it's worth saying again: I can't remember the last time I've watched a TV show in which every episode challenges me to think, about the big questions, and the small ones as well. If the show comes back for another season, I hope we are lucky enough to have the same writers and another story and cast of similar caliber. In a market overrun by reality TV and the lowest common denominator, we need more programming which asks something of us beyond unplugging our brains and buying whatever they're (quite literally) selling.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Sighed I

[Captanne]

As an historian of the National Guard of the United States, I can say that this era is a large part of my repertoire.  I hope this show leads people to get more interested in the mid to late 19th Century.  It's not unlike our own.  The Industrial Revolution was in full swing as you can see in the outfitting of Terror and Erebus.  Imperialism was the normal and overwhelmed entire subcultures by the dominant ones (I'd compare it to today's global markets).  Our own technological revolution of the 20th and 21st Cs is a lot like theirs.

If the moment of farewell between Goodsir and Lady Silence is anything -- it's the complicated relationship between England and her Imperialist nature which, at that time, was ingrained in the culture.  Proud, patronizing, and unaware of its own ignorance -- even to the point of being incapable of taking kindness without suspicion or haughtiness.  Lady Silence all but says that in her snap back at Crozier when she could still speak and finally lost her temper.

This is a sad story of pride leading to tragedy. 

I'm glad the show is making folks think -- and, I hope, get interested in the likes of Ross, Parry, Shackleton, and the other English explorers who are of the same ilk as Franklin, Crozier, and Fitzjames. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Captanne

[pasdetrois]

I was so engaged with this episode. I appreciated production's challenges in trying to replicate a difficult location, probably on a limited budget. Which is probably responsible for the poor quality of the Abominable Snow Bear, who occasionally reminds me of our young but very large white Labrador, who breaks out into insane running in circles at least once a day.

Anyway, I was glued to the TV while simultaneously trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

Crozier is the perfect military commander - he's imperfect but rises above that to lead his men with compassion and confidence and, when necessary, force (blah blah speech speech string him up). I loved his scene with Fitzjames and his soapbox speech to the men.

I'm glad the show hasn't glamorized Lady Silence. She's a realistic portrayal of someone from that time. She would be too devoted to her own people and customs to lark off with a kind English doctor. I do wonder why it didn't occur to someone that she could help them hunt food.

As much as I've enjoyed the actor who plays Hickey, his ability to continually escape punishment seems implausible.

What did the note that Fitzjames and Crozier found say? Even with freeze-frame I couldn't make it out.

[Osmigo]

One of the things that can cause a show's appeal to fade is to have some antagonist character, the obligatory "bad guy," who just keeps "getting away with everything" over and over and over until you just lose interest.  It eventually gets to be like the annoying guest at a party; you don't care any more what they say or do, you just wish they'd leave. We're very close to that point with Hickey, if we haven't passed it already.  There are two episodes left.  If they have some kind of cliffhanger finale that's Hickey-centric, that will be the last nail in the coffin for a lot of viewers.

Beyond that, it's been a wonderful series, and I'm always anxious for the next episode. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Osmigo

[Captanne]

Here is the text of the statement in the cairn followed by Crozier's addition (Crozier's addition was written in a circle around the margins.)  http://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/franklin/archive/text/FranklinVictoryPoint_en.htm

 

[SimoneS]

@tennisgurl and @slothgirl, great comments. I agree with both of you. As much as I like Goodsir, I was rolling my eyes when he was telling the Inuit woman that people were different back in England. Fact is that almost all of them were just as imperialistic, racist, and entitled as the men on those ships. Charles Dickens referred to the Inuits as a "race of savages." Yes, there were exceptions, but not many. As you said, Goodsir and I would add Crozier were better men than their peers, but even they bought into English superiority. The Inuit could expect not much better treatment in England that they were receiving from the English men who invaded their land.

I think that Inuit woman cared and empathized with Goodsir. She did comfort him when he was falling apart last week. She does think that he is better than the other men which is why she went back to him for help after cutting out her tongue. She also knows that Francis will protect her from the other men. However, she has no illusions about these men taking want they want from her and her people. And after seeing them brutally murdered, she probably doesn't much care what happens to them, even if she likes Goodsir and Francis.

I just saw @Sighed I's comment. My interpretation of that scene is in line with the actor and director's intent.

Edited May 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[AZChristian]

3 hours ago, Captanne said:

If the moment of farewell between Goodsir and Lady Silence is anything -- it's the complicated relationship between England and her Imperialist nature which, at that time, was ingrained in the culture.  Proud, patronizing, and unaware of its own ignorance -- even to the point of being incapable of taking kindness without suspicion or haughtiness.  Lady Silence all but says that in her snap back at Crozier when she could still speak and finally lost her temper.

This is a sad story of pride leading to tragedy. 

I'm glad the show is making folks think -- and, I hope, get interested in the likes of Ross, Parry, Shackleton, and the other English explorers who are of the same ilk as Franklin, Crozier, and Fitzjames. 

Wow.  One of the reasons I like PTV is that we have such a wide range of people posting here.  Some share their emotional history stories if it can benefit others to hear "I've been there."

And then we have your wonderful comments about comparing the relationship between Goodsir and Lady Silence to England and her Imperialist nature.  You have made my brain work today . . . and that's a good thing.  Thank you!

[Captanne]

Oh, I meant England's Imperialist nature (England being the "her" in that context.) Lady Silence sees through all the haughty bullshit of the officers and enlisted on Terror and Erebus and calls it what it is -- suicidal missions for money and glory without ever taking the time to understand where they are headed or the cultures they might meet.  

Lady Silence is not the imperialist.  England is.

The pride that leads to tragedy is all England's in this story.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Captanne

[jaigurudeva]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:34 PM, Lamima said:

I don't think Hickey is telling the truth about Crozier. I can't remember him saying any such thing. Maybe he said something and Hickey was using his words out of context.

Yes, Hickey said that the same day John Franklin was killed, Francis Crozier planned to resign and leave with a party of men. It's technically true, but twisted in a way that makes it sound like Crozier was going to abandon the men after Franklin was killed. In reality, Franklin and Crozier were butting heads over whether they were in deep enough trouble to where they needed to send a rescue party south. Crozier so believed they needed the rescue, he was willing to resign from his position and leave with a party of men if it meant saving the crews of Erebus and Terror. However, once Franklin was killed, Crozier inherited the power to send the rescue party, while staying behind to lead the crew. Hickey is still being a weasel, just trying to turn it around like he is the only one willing to tell the truth, and everyone else is lying.

[Earlwoode]

Imperialism was the normal and overwhelmed entire subcultures by the dominant ones (I'd compare it to today's global markets).  Our own technological revolution of the 20th and 21st Cs is a lot like theirs.

I find this a really interesting statement and would like to point out that the whole of human history is made up of the dominant cultures overwhelming the weaker subcultures.  It’s been like that even in pre history and certainly since we started keeping historical records.  And it will probably always be like that because that’s the makeup of humanity, in my opinion.

Are some people suggesting Goodsir and Lady Silence are in some sort if romantic relationship?  Because I certainly don’t get that vibe at all.  In fact, I really donlt understand why she is with them at all. They never really explain why.  We don’t   even know if she knew the murdered group of Inuit. Were they family members?  Complete strangers? People she knew casually as part of the same clan or tribe? She seems to be completely on her own since her father died and we never really know if they were part of another group or just two nomads living apart from everyone else.

BTW, I think Hickey will be one of the last to die as it’s very obvious he’s one of the show’s main characters.   And yeah the CGI bear is beyond silly and they should have left him out.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Earlwoode

[AZChristian]

12 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Are some people suggesting Goodsir and Lady Silence are in some sort if romantic relationship?  Because I certainly don’t get that vibe at all.  In fact, I really donlt understand why she is with them at all. They never really explain why.  We don’t   even know if she knew the murdered group of Inuit. Were they family members?  Complete strangers? People she knew casually as part of the same clan or tribe? She seems to be completely on her own since her father died and we never really know if they were part of another group or just two nomads living apart from everyone else..

When they were looking at the slaughtered Eskimos, Goodsir or Crozier asked her if they were family.  She shook her head no.  Then she asked if they were friends, and she nodded slightly.

[Earlwoode]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

When they were looking at the slaughtered Eskimos, Goodsir or Crozier asked her if they were family.  She shook her head no.  Then she asked if they were friends, and she nodded slightly.

Ah,  ok I missed that. I’ve never seen subtitles for what they say so when they speak Inuit the dialogue is a total mystery to me.  I aso don’t get why sometimes Goodsir speaks English and others Inuit.  Is she supposed to understand English now?

[Sighed I]

30 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Imperialism was the normal and overwhelmed entire subcultures by the dominant ones (I'd compare it to today's global markets).  Our own technological revolution of the 20th and 21st Cs is a lot like theirs.

I find this a really interesting statement and would like to point out that the whole of human history is made up of the dominant cultures overwhelming the weaker subcultures.  It’s been like that even in pre history and certainly since we started keeping historical records.  And it will probably always be like that because that’s the makeup of humanity, in my opinion.

Are some people suggesting Goodsir and Lady Silence are in some sort if romantic relationship?  Because I certainly don’t get that vibe at all.  In fact, I really donlt understand why she is with them at all. They never really explain why.  We don’t   even know if she knew the murdered group of Inuit. Were they family members?  Complete strangers? People she knew casually as part of the same clan or tribe? She seems to be completely on her own since her father died and we never really know if they were part of another group or just two nomads living apart from everyone else.

BTW, I think Hickey will be one of the last to die as it’s very obvious he’s one of the show’s main characters.   And yeah the CGI bear is beyond silly and they should have left him out.

Speaking for myself, I don't think Lady Silence and Goodsir were having a romantic relationship so much as I wish they would have been so Harry could join her people and survive. It's one of the stages of grief, bargaining. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model It's virtually guaranteed he will die, and for those of us who love the character, grasping at straws like "I wish he and Lady Silence would run off together!" provides us (me) with an alternative fate. It's not unlike convincing oneself that despite the evidence, Hickey's not really a bad guy, just misunderstood. ;) (I'm just teasing you ;) ;)

@AZChristian is correct; the murdered Inuit were Lady Silence's friends. I'm pretty sure LS and her father had sequestered themselves specifically because her father was preparing her to take the reins, as it were, with Tuunbaq. In such a harsh environment, I can't see one or two people surviving indefinitely without a community of some sort. We don't know why she stuck around for as long as she did alone, but I think it's safe to say it had to do with Tuunbaq being there since he was without a shaman (which is "not the way" as she told him in A Mercy) and was fixated on the ships.

Regarding imperialism, yes, as you say, groups of humans have been overrunning and destroying other groups since time immemorial. That being so doesn't make it above criticism or analysis. Many advanced civilizations have been destroyed because of the arrogance of and selfishness of other civilizations. Might makes right, as the saying goes. Can you imagine where humanity could be, or could have been, if we'd rise(n) above our violent impulses, learned from and cooperated with each other instead of destroying what we don't understand? <cue Star Trek theme> We're certainly capable of both, but we humans are extraordinarily skilled at being shortsighted and shooting ourselves in the foot for momentary gain.

Bringing it back to the show, recognizing the role of imperialism in the loss of so many lives doesn't make me, personally, care any less for these men (with a few notable exceptions). In a great many ways, they've demonstrated incredible courage, bravery and compassion for one another under incredible circumstances. And yet, they suffered in almost unimaginable ways, and died in isolation, thousands of miles from home. For what? Glory? Bragging rights? Money?

When it comes down to it, even if they had been successful, only the tiniest handful among them would have truly benefited; the ones who would have benefited most of all weren't even there. Was it worth it? While these men were freezing to death, debilitated by malnutrition and disease, eating the flesh of their fallen companions to survive, were they thinking about how glad they were to sacrifice their lives for the Glory and Dominion of the Empire? Or were they dreaming about home, their families and friends, wishing they'd never signed up for this expedition? We'll never know for certain, but if I were in their position, I know into which camp I'd fall.

[Captanne]

I completely agree with Sighed I that the bulldozer the English made of their empire is worthy of criticism and analysis.  (We learn lessons from history, hopefully.)  One thing that has really hit home to me by this show is that the English suffered this great tragedy in part because of their hubris.  Lady Silence admonishes them about this very thing when she snaps at Crozier early on.  But, it can be said of the entire Empire from pole to pole.  

I also love Osmigo's observation about One-Note Hickey.  He is like the annoying guest at the dinner party who can't leave soon enough.  I call it "Floki-syndrome" (History Channel's "Vikings" reference.)

Edited May 11, 2018 by Captanne

[AZChristian]

In my dream world, the last two still living are Crozier and Hickey.  Crozier ties down Hickey so Tuunbaq can slowly and painfully finish him off.  Then Lady Silence tells Crozier to leave (he'll try until he dies), and tells Tuungaq she can't harm him.

The End.

[Earlwoode]

1 hour ago, Captanne said:

completely agree with Sighed I that the bulldozer the English made of their empire is worthy of criticism and analysis

You could say that about any empire or civilization in history. And while harm was done by many empires and conquerors, they also brought many benefits.  Think of the Roman Empire and  the civilizational benefits they brought to many corners of the world.  Ditto the British empire and probably many others.  I don’t agree with this PC crap that we all have to apologise  for what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago. It’s not our responsability because none of us were alive then and the mindset was proper for their era.  I don’t see the Indians or the Chinese or anybody else apologizing for their history. What happened happened and you cannot change the past.

As to the foot soldiers, well they were all volunteers so they must have had an inkling of the hardships they would face. What they probably never expected was that they’d all die to a man but that’s just part of the vicissitudes of life (or death).

[jnymph]

4 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Are some people suggesting Goodsir and Lady Silence are in some sort if romantic relationship?  Because I certainly don’t get that vibe at all.

Well, on the AMC series "The Terror"  Goodsir and Lady Silence may not have had a romantic relationship; but at the very least have had a connection.    However, recent archaeological findings strongly suggest they had a torrid love affair.   Those findings are in the link "jnymphsmind.com"  ; )

[Earlwoode]

9 minutes ago, jnymph said:

However, recent archaeological findings strongly suggest they had a torrid love affair.

Lol, it’s find that very hard to believe.  I think her acting is very wooden and her sex apeal equal to a wet dishrag, lol. Mind you, I find Goodsir cloyingly “sweet” with his sad hound dog eyes. I find him totally annoying, truth be told (maybe because we are meant to love him as the “good” guy and they are not subtle about it). If Hickey is the perfect two dimensional arch villain then this guy is his exact opposite - the two dimensional good guy. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Earlwoode

[slothgirl]

10 hours ago, Sighed I said:

It's virtually guaranteed he will die, and for those of us who love the character, grasping at straws like "I wish he and Lady Silence would run off together!" provides us (me) with an alternative fate. It's not unlike convincing oneself that despite the evidence, Hickey's not really a bad guy, just misunderstood. ;) (I'm just teasing you ;) ;)

I can't see one or two people surviving indefinitely without a community of some sort. 

And yet, they suffered in almost unimaginable ways, and died in isolation, thousands of miles from home. For what? Glory? Bragging rights? Money?

Since they never found the bodies of most of the crew, we can fantasize any outcome we want (except them returning home... our fantasies must include Britain never hearing from them again). Of course, no matter the outcome, they'd DEFINITELY all be dead NOW. ;)

As to LS' community... I read somewhere that due to the scarcity and widely scattered nature of natural resources for food (especially in winter), the Inuit of this area typically lived in very small groups (<10). However, it also seems unlikely that anyone would actually go it completely alone, and the groups probably crossed paths from time to time. LS didn't look especially frightened at being turned out on her own in a place where we know a non-native couldn't survive on their own at all.

The real tragedy is not in the ones who suffered for bragging rights or glory, but those who met this fate for mere employment or sustenance. I doubt they all signed on just for the whole "Northwest Passage" crap. Many probably got off one ship and signed on to whatever opportunity was next offered. It could even be that this was the bottom of the barrel as far as getting a gig if most sailors DIDN"T want it. Maybe the better sailing jobs were taken. Maybe because of risks this one paid more, so desperate men signed on. And then we have heard from the Marines that they were assigned to it.. they didn't even get a choice.

8 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

You could say that about any empire or civilization in history. And while harm was done by many empires and conquerors, they also brought many benefits.  Think of the Roman Empire and  the civilizational benefits they brought to many corners of the world.  Ditto the British empire and probably many others.  I don’t agree with this PC crap that we all have to apologise  for what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago. It’s not our responsability because none of us were alive then and the mindset was proper for their era.  I don’t see the Indians or the Chinese or anybody else apologizing for their history. What happened happened and you cannot change the past.

As to the foot soldiers, well they were all volunteers so they must have had an inkling of the hardships they would face. What they probably never expected was that they’d all die to a man but that’s just part of the vicissitudes of life (or death).

I haven't noticed anyone on here saying we should be apologizing for our ancestors. There's a difference between recognizing the evils performed by invading cultures and feeling guilt or responsibility over it happening 100+ years ago before we were born. If you want to take your analogy to it's extreme, then even the Holocaust brought "benefits" in the knowledge of anatomy derived from the Nazi's horrific scientific experiments. That doesn't justify them. Even in the case of the "civilization" you speak of from the British and Roman empires, your view is automatically skewed by a bias towards the type of civilization that feels "advanced" to you based your own experience. Cultures and people negatively affected by those empires and colonization most likely view them and their "benefits" very differently.

As for anyone apologizing for their history... the Japanese have, and their cultural values are quite different now from the mindset that led them commit atrocities in WWII. (Of course, it took a crippling defeat to achieve that)

What I love about the way the imperial mindset is being portrayed here on the show is that we see how even the "good guys" operate from latent, subconscious racist cultural assumptions and ignorance, and how easily those underlying sentiments can become overt and dangerous when fear and/or manipulative influences take hold. THAT is what we can address in our current life and times. I can't do anything about what the British Empire (or the roman, or the slave trade of the Colonial  South, or Columbus in the Americas, or anyone else) did in the past. I CAN recognize instances of subconscious racism today in myself and my culture (or my governmental processes). I can recognize that my subjective experience doesn't define "truth", and that my values for "civilization" aren't universal definitions.

I feel that is the message of this show.

Edited May 12, 2018 by slothgirl

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

As to the foot soldiers, well they were all volunteers so they must have had an inkling of the hardships they would face. What they probably never expected was that they’d all die to a man but that’s just part of the vicissitudes of life (or death).

The ones with polar experience had an idea.  The ones who'd never been anywhere near a polar region, and who signed on for the money, most probably hadn't the slightest notion.

[Earlwoode]

1 hour ago, slothgirl said:

Even in the case of the "civilization" you speak of from the British and Roman empires, your view is automatically skewed by a bias towards the type of civilization that feels "advanced" to you based your own experience. Cultures and people negatively affected by those empires and colonization most likely view them and their "benefits" very differently.

Well, as someone whose country was colonized by Romans I can tell you they brought many civilizational advances to what was, at the time, a backwards, very ignorant and savage people.  These benefits are studied in our own history lessons and everyone pretty much agrees they benefited what later became our country (or countries).  I guess the Roman invasion brought what is now lauded as multiculturism. And were the Roman advanced in relation to my ancestors: most definitely IMO.  Anyone who built the civilization they built with no electricity, or any other kind of power except human and animal were,  IMO, a civilization to be admired.  Were they ruthless in their conquests? Yes definitely but that was the way the world functioned (and still does more covertly IMO)  and I don’t feel there is anything racist about that.  Every country or culture or religion always feel they are superior to everyone else - it’s just human nature.

I thought I saw on the show someone saying every man on the expedition were volunteers? So supposedly no one forced them to go and I’m sure they knew there was always a chance someone or more, would die.  The chances of dying of almost anything (disease, accidents, death penalty, child mortality)  in the 19th century were infinitely greater than in our own century were we all take it for granted we will all live long and healthy lives.  I’m sure their views of life and death were very different from modern man’s.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Earlwoode

[SoSueMe]

3 hours ago, jnymph said:

Well, on the AMC series "The Terror"  Goodsir and Lady Silence may not have had a romantic relationship; but at the very least have had a connection.    However, recent archaeological findings strongly suggest they had a torrid love affair.   Those findings are in the link "jnymphsmind.com"  ; )

LOL, @jnymph

I like the way you think :)

[slothgirl]

5 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Were they ruthless in their conquests? Yes definitely but that was the way the world functioned (and still does more covertly IMO)  and I don’t feel there is anything racist about that.  Every country or culture or religion always feel they are superior to everyone else - it’s just human nature.

I disagree that racism never plays a part... yes, colonizers might always think they are superior. But they don't always treat the natives with the complete dismissal and outright barbarity that occurs when empires invade lands populated by people they consider barely-human "savages" or animals. The ease with which the Inuit are lumped together with a violent unnamed tribe thousands of miles away in Texas is a sign of that.

 I think further exploration of the subject though would be off topic for the thread, especially getting into other conquering cultures specifically.

[Sighed I]

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

In my dream world, the last two still living are Crozier and Hickey.  Crozier ties down Hickey so Tuunbaq can slowly and painfully finish him off.  Then Lady Silence tells Crozier to leave (he'll try until he dies), and tells Tuungaq she can't harm him.

The End.

I like the outcome, but I'd rather Hickey meet said fate much earlier...like the beginning of the next episode. LOL ;)

11 hours ago, jnymph said:

Well, on the AMC series "The Terror"  Goodsir and Lady Silence may not have had a romantic relationship; but at the very least have had a connection.    However, recent archaeological findings strongly suggest they had a torrid love affair.   Those findings are in the link "jnymphsmind.com"  ; )

I heard about that! There's speculation Tuunbaq became positively incorrigible after devouring so many souls, forcing the couple into isolation for the safety of her people. That may be why the story of their love was never incorporated into the Inuit's oral history. ;)

10 hours ago, slothgirl said:

Since they never found the bodies of most of the crew, we can fantasize any outcome we want (except them returning home... our fantasies must include Britain never hearing from them again). Of course, no matter the outcome, they'd DEFINITELY all be dead NOW. ;)

In that case, I'm sticking with my wormhole into an alternate reality fantasy; Goodsir isn't the only one on my survivor wish list.  ;)

Quote

The real tragedy is not in the ones who suffered for bragging rights or glory, but those who met this fate for mere employment or sustenance. I doubt they all signed on just for the whole "Northwest Passage" crap. Many probably got off one ship and signed on to whatever opportunity was next offered. It could even be that this was the bottom of the barrel as far as getting a gig if most sailors DIDN"T want it. Maybe the better sailing jobs were taken. Maybe because of risks this one paid more, so desperate men signed on. And then we have heard from the Marines that they were assigned to it.. they didn't even get a choice.

By bragging rights I meant like a bunch of sailors swapping stories trying to one-up each other and one of them declares, "Well, I was there when we discovered the Northwest Passage!" But, yes, I agree it's particularly tragic for the crew, for all the reasons you state. I also feel sorry for the glory hounds, though, if for no other reason than how terribly they must have suffered.

Really, the only ones I have difficulty arousing much sympathy for are Hickey, for obvious reasons, and Franklin, for his arrogance and recklessness (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Dr. Stanley, for his general dickishness). After more than half of his crew died on a previous Arctic expedition, amid rumors of cannibalism no less, Franklin had zero excuse for having no rescue plan. He experienced first hand how bad it could get. He knew better, but he blazed forward half-cocked anyway. I don't care how personable he was; soaring rhetoric means nothing in light of his incompetence and utter negligence.

Quote

What I love about the way the imperial mindset is being portrayed here on the show is that we see how even the "good guys" operate from latent, subconscious racist cultural assumptions and ignorance, and how easily those underlying sentiments can become overt and dangerous when fear and/or manipulative influences take hold. THAT is what we can address in our current life and times.

I appreciate how straightforward and unapologetic this mindset is portrayed, without being exaggerated or over the top. So often in period pieces, there's at least one character with a decidedly modern point of view, inconsistent with the era. Here, even the most sympathetic characters are still men (and women) of their times. The narrative honesty increases my investment in the characters, because they seem like real people. It allows me to forgive (most of) them for their flaws and connect with their humanity. To paraphrase Lady Jane, in the waiting room of life, would any of us want to hang our defeats for all to see?

I'm reminded of the quote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." If we are to evolve as human beings, we must learn from our mistakes. Shrugging it off as "That's the way it's always been" seems rather fatalistic and implies we're incapable of doing better. Maybe we are incapable and it's only a matter of time before we completely destroy ourselves and possibly everything else along with us. I believe we can move beyond our basest impulses; whether we choose to do so remains to be seen.

[Captanne]

If I understand my history -- the Discovery Service (as the British Admiralty called all these Arctic and Antarctic missions) paid very well.  The Navy itself was a good, steady paying job -- but the more treacherous the mission, the more the pay.  In fact, I believe the Discovery Service paid a good amount of your full pay up front so you had it in hand even before you left.  (To be squandered by the sailor or used by his family while he was gone.)  I don't believe for one minute any of the regular seamen or the Marines volunteered.  I don't even think Franklin, Crozier, or Fitzjames did.  Much has been made of the fact that, while languishing ashore waiting for a mission to come along, many of the commissioned officers were reduced to half pay which was burdensome for them.

Some missions were funded by the government (like the Franklin Expedition wanting a Northwest Passage) and others were funded privately by citizens or Societies.  Shackleton's mission to Antarctica was funded in large part by the Royal Geographic Society, I think.

I admit Goodsir is a little cloying but this show -- like Vikings -- seems to want to tread a line between the adult, sophisticated audience and a younger, more soapy audience.  The third, being of course, those who are entertained by both.  The more sophisticated can debate the various layers of the meaning of "Terror" in the show while the younger can debate the love affairs (I believe there is a glorious, subtle one between two of the men, the older and the younger with the book scene) and the bad CGI of the Tuunbaq.  And then there are those of us who enjoy talking about all of it!

Self-editorializing -- I think I'm getting too broad on topic, here, and will stop the general observations that aren't squarely about this particular episode.  I think the pay question is interesting and apropos of this episode along with all the others.

[Earlwoode]

In that case, I'm sticking with my wormhole into an alternate reality fantasy; Goodsir isn't the only one on my survivor wish list.  ;)

 

Well, you can always turn to fanfiction.  I’m sure there’s will be someone, somewhere writing about the torrid love affair between Goodsir and Lady Silence.  ?

[proserpina65]

On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:28 PM, Captanne said:

 I don't even think Franklin, Crozier, or Fitzjames did.

Franklin did.  He and Lady Franklin worked on their influential friends to secure the command for him.  He was not the Admiralty's first (or second) choice.

[Captanne]

I know he was a last choice (behind one who promised he'd stay home with his new wife and another deemed too young) -- but I do think he was paid.

 

If nothing else, his wife was paid a pension as noted by the clerk:

"Officers & Ships Co. are to be considered as having died in the service and their Wages are to be paid to their Relatives to 31 March 1854."

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cookman-ice.html?scp=105&sq=apollo%2011&st=cse

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Captanne said:

I know he was a last choice (behind one who promised he'd stay home with his new wife and another deemed too young) -- but I do think he was paid.

 

If nothing else, his wife was paid a pension as noted by the clerk:

"Officers & Ships Co. are to be considered as having died in the service and their Wages are to be paid to their Relatives to 31 March 1854."

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cookman-ice.html?scp=105&sq=apollo%2011&st=cse

Oh yes, he was paid, but he did request to be assigned to the mission.  (I apologize if I've misunderstood your original post.)

[Kel Varnsen]

I can't believe how many people decided to side with Hickey at the end. Especially after the hanging scene where Goodsir (the guy everyone likes) presented evidence that he killed their friends. Although I am not sure I give much hope to their group especially since they have one guy with them who admitted he can't really read maps.

On 5/7/2018 at 10:35 PM, Crone said:

I loved the first scene with Crozier hearing Fitzjames’ confession. The English are(were?) really hung up on their caste system, so it meant a lot for Fitzjames to confide the circumstances of his birth. Baring all to Crozier, his physical deterioration, and bravely shooting rockets at the bear- Fitzjames has nothing left to lose. 

That was a great scene. I think my favourite part was Fitzjames admitting that his name was ridiculous.

On 5/8/2018 at 12:40 PM, meep.meep said:

Celestial navigation using a sextant.  It's still a skill taught to mariners.  My son had to prove he could do it to graduate from the maritime academy and my cousin's son at Annapolis said they had just had it added back to the curriculum recently.

The log in the previous episode said that they abandoned ship in April. So even though the days would be pretty long you would still get some night, which would allow them to use the stars to help navigate.

On 5/9/2018 at 10:52 AM, proserpina65 said:

Edited to note: I don't think Tuunbaq looks much like a polar bear anymore.  He's large, white, and somewhat bear shaped, but his neck and head are something else entirely.  This isn't a judgment on the quality (or lack thereof) in the CGI - just my impression of the creature's appearance.  And it sure didn't move like a polar bear.  Let's just say I don't want it showing up on my Christmas Coke products, thank you very much.

I think it looks more like a giant dog with weird  fingers than an actual bear.

@CaptanneI was actully looking at that picture of that real letter when watching this episode. The shows production people did a great job of making it look accurate. Even the line Fitzjames wrote about Franklin dying was in the right spot on the page with what looked like very close to the same handwriting.

I also thought the fog in this episode was really well done. In one of my Arctic trips we were fogged in for 4 days where we couldn't see anyting outside and could not really venture more than a few feet away from building doors (because of bears). It was a little disturbing and this did a great job showing that.

[paramitch]

"Are we brothers, Francis? I would like that very much."

I've been bingewatching this through the holidays, as a fan of so many cast members (especially Harris and Menzies), and the show has absolutely blown me away. Sure, it's grim viewing, but there are so many beautiful moments, and this scene, when Fitzjames opens his heart to Crozier and then tearfully asks if they can be brothers, had me absolutely sobbing, rewinding, and rewatching.

What an incredible journey these two men have traversed together -- from resentful antagonists to brothers of the heart. One of the most beautiful moments I have ever seen in any show or film, period, and my God, Menzies and Harris were so good here.

On 5/7/2018 at 7:16 PM, raven said:

Fitzjames staring down the bear with rockets, Blanky hopping around and Crozier in command were all badass.   Those sores on Fitzjames looked awful.

Fitzjames coolly staring down the bear and firing the rockets at it was fantastically badass. This was definitely the highlight episode for Fitzjames so far -- he has gone from faking heroics, to becoming one.

On 5/7/2018 at 11:15 PM, Dowel Jones said:

I am curious about one thing.  They are so far north (King William island is 69 deg. north latitude) that magnetic compasses would be virtually useless.  How did they navigate on featureless terrain so that they would know they are still headed south?

Celestial navigation in combination with maps -- we've seen that they have pretty good ones. The only thing they hadn't mapped yet was the Northwest Passage. But they know where they are, and they can use the stars at night, in combination with a sextant, to double-check that they are heading in the right direction when landmarks won't suffice.

On 5/7/2018 at 11:29 PM, Sighed I said:

Poor Collins. I hope he was high enough not to feel too much pain. I wonder if that thing we saw with his face was his spirit leaving his body or something along those lines; perhaps Tuunbaq is a "soul collector". I think Tozer saw it too; I wonder how that will play out with him later?

James' confessional to Francis got me all choked up. In the first episode, he tells Sir John, "One look from (Francis) and I have to remind myself I'm not a fraud." Now we know the judgement he saw in Francis' eyes was actually a reflection of his own self-judgement. It's so heartbreaking to see these men drop the masks, to be so real and vulnerable with each other, knowing they won't find their way home. I think about the real men this story is based on and wonder what stories and secrets they shared; it makes me sad that we'll never know.

I did love seeing James facing down the creature with the rockets, and Blanky hauling ass; I never would've imagined someone with a wooden leg could move so fast!

I absolutely thought the same thing about Tuunbaq's attack on Collins -- it is as if he is feeding on them supernaturally, not just physically. And totally agree on the beautiful character progressions here.

On 5/8/2018 at 9:40 AM, meep.meep said:

It doesn't seem like the expedition included any chaplain or someone to provide spiritual guidance to the men.  Rather than letting Hickey make a speech, it would have been more regular to let him say a last confession or talk to the minister.  But they didn't have one.

Many captains and sailors disliked having a chaplain or parson on board because of common superstition that they were bad luck. In those cases, the Captain is the ship's spiritual leader, conducts services on Sundays, and reads Biblical texts, Shakespeare, Donne, or poetry, the Articles of War, etc.

On 5/8/2018 at 3:14 PM, slothgirl said:

When she and Goodsir parted, she didn't look like she had much affection for him anymore beyond a casual: "Whelp... ya'll got yourselves into a pickle, and you can get yer own damn selves out of it. You're a bunch of murdering bastards and although I like you (specifically) ok, I don't trust any of you as far as I can spit... which isn't very far now that I cut out my tongue for naught". She didn't look to me like she was feeling overwhelming sorrow or deep emotion at parting from Goodsir.

I've always looked at the spirit bear as a metaphor or representation. I just can't quite figure what he represents... At one point I thought it was Crozier's drunkeness. then I thought it was Hickey. Now I think it just represents the worst of man's most base self. In Ep 1, the old Eski says that the last few survivors had Tuunbaq close behind them. They can't escape their own demons.

I really disagree with this take on Silence and Goodsir. While, yes, his final speech to her was incredibly naive, they have made a definite and heartfelt connection that isn't just shipping out of nowhere. The moment when Goodsir was weeping alone in his bed, and she lay down next to him to comfort him, certainly argues that she genuinely cares for him, and I felt that again in the farewell here. I think she respects Crozier and loves Goodsir (whether or not it is romantic is up for interpretation).

As far as the Tuunbaq, my take is that it is not a representation of man's evil, but of some sort of spirit of outraged nature itself that is roaring back at the thoughtless corruption these white men have brought to the Inuit and the North.

On 5/9/2018 at 5:17 AM, Captanne said:

However, non-fiction accounts also stress that the tinned food was improperly made and probably leached enough lead as well as not being boiled at a high enough heat long enough to kill off the botulism spores. (See:  Cookman, Ice Blink, for a long, detailed analysis.)  So, these men are gutted by the food they have now been eating for years.

They are also suffering from the more "ordinary" illnesses of all these long 19th Century Discovery Missions -- scurvy for sure. That causes the bleeding from skin openings and the rotting gums.  It's awful, easy to cure, and deadly in advanced stages.  Usually a trip would lose only one or two men and it would be to scurvy.  Never had the Royal Admiralty lost 129 men in one go.  This loss stunned the nation and the world.  Cookman compares it to "if Apollo 11 had gone to the moon with the world watching and simply disappeared on the dark side."  I add that it is an apt comparison if you add the numbers that were lost in something like MH370.

Beautiful post, Captanne (and thank you for your service!). In reading more about the mission's supplies, it appears that the supplier underbid everyone else, then rushed to complete the order with disastrous results, per Wikipedia:

The tinned food was supplied from a provisioner, Stephen Goldner, who was awarded the contract on 1 April 1845, a mere seven weeks before Franklin set sail. Goldner worked frantically on the large order of 8,000 tins. The haste required affected quality control of some of the tins, which were later found to have lead soldering that was "thick and sloppily done, and dripped like melted candle wax down the inside surface."

On 5/9/2018 at 7:52 AM, proserpina65 said:

Edited to note: I don't think Tuunbaq looks much like a polar bear anymore.  He's large, white, and somewhat bear shaped, but his neck and head are something else entirely.  This isn't a judgment on the quality (or lack thereof) in the CGI - just my impression of the creature's appearance.  And it sure didn't move like a polar bear.  Let's just say I don't want it showing up on my Christmas Coke products, thank you very much.

To me, Tuunbaq looks bearlike but also supernatural, with that stretched-out neck and the human/bear features. There are several Inuit carvings that seem to reference this as well.

Also, I know pretty much everyone hates the CGI of the Tuunbaq, but I have no issue with it, and find it frightening, fascinating, and really cool-looking. I think the show has done a great job with it so far.

On 5/10/2018 at 12:59 AM, Sighed I said:

The casual racism has been difficult to watch at times, but so critical to the story, IMO. In addition to the scenes you mention, one of the exchanges I found particularly disturbing was when Goodsir is getting permission from Dr. Stanley to accompany Lady Silence to Terror. Lt. Des Voeux says something like, "Might as well write a Newfie dictionary. Or capuchin." To him, Lady Silence isn't just uncivilized; she's not even human. It was shocking to hear those words coming out of his mouth, and at the same time not shocking at all.

In any case, watching this show has been an emotional and intellectual journey for me. I've said it before, but it's worth saying again: I can't remember the last time I've watched a TV show in which every episode challenges me to think, about the big questions, and the small ones as well.

The casual racism of so many of these men is just staggering, which was why I was so moved last episode when the officer saw the Inuit and was so delighted, and for a few precious moments, they were simply human beings together, with the Inuit man giving him food, and the officer giving his spyglass and demonstrating how it worked, etc. I have also for this reason enjoyed all the scenes in which Crozier talked to Silence, and of course especially when Goodsir did as well. Even if here, his passionate wish to take her to England made me cringe. But I do think she cared deeply for him.

On 5/10/2018 at 4:16 AM, Captanne said:

I'm glad the show is making folks think -- and, I hope, get interested in the likes of Ross, Parry, Shackleton, and the other English explorers who are of the same ilk as Franklin, Crozier, and Fitzjames. 

And John Rae! And seconding Shackleton! Anyone who isn't familiar with Shackleton's story -- it's so worth checking out. Absolutely amazing story (and if it helps, a happier ending than this one). And I remember that Kenneth Branagh starred in a decent dramatization at some point, as well.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Celestial navigation in combination with maps -- we've seen that they have pretty good ones. The only thing they hadn't mapped yet was the Northwest Passage. But they know where they are, and they can use the stars at night, in combination with a sextant, to double-check that they are heading in the right direction when landmarks won't suffice.

What is amazing to me is that they can do celestial navigation with the sub only. Since during the summer in the arctic there would be very little or no darkness.

[paramitch]

12 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

What is amazing to me is that they can do celestial navigation with the sub only. Since during the summer in the arctic there would be very little or no darkness.

That's a great point! And I had forgotten they were doing a lot of travel in Spring/Summer across events. However, between a timepiece, a chronometer, and a sextant -- instruments used for centuries now -- there's still a lot an Arctic traveler can do to reaffirm their position. I grew up on sailboats and my Dad made me learn how to use the stars and sextant, but this article offers alternatives using a combination of these ancient instruments that almost certainly served the men of the Terror and Erebus.

Even at sea with a normal starry sky accessible, it's still important to make noon observations, and those would still be accessible in the Arctic.

This was an interesting examination of how people might navigate the Arctic, and it's believable to me in "The Terror," especially given the fact that most of the officers had decent maps as well.

https://norpolar.tripod.com/Polar_Navigation.html

 

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, paramitch said:

That's a great point! And I had forgotten they were doing a lot of travel in Spring/Summer across events. However, between a timepiece, a chronometer, and a sextant -- instruments used for centuries now -- there's still a lot an Arctic traveler can do to reaffirm their position. I grew up on sailboats and my Dad made me learn how to use the stars and sextant, but this article offers alternatives using a combination of these ancient instruments that almost certainly served the men of the Terror and Erebus.

That is interesting. I knew you could determine longitude using the sun and a clock when the sun does the typical up and down thing. But I wasn't sure you would be able to do it when the sun just makes a circle in the sky. 

Speaking of which and after experiencing it, it is very surreal. It also makes me wonder if the 24 hours of sun and 24 hours of no sun made it even harder for the men on the ships to deal with things, especially the ones who had never experienced it. It seems like it could just lead to added stress since on top of the food poisoning, the scurvy, the cramped quarters and the general danger you are also dealing with the stress of your internal clock being all messed up.

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That is interesting. I knew you could determine longitude using the sun and a clock when the sun does the typical up and down thing. But I wasn't sure you would be able to do it when the sun just makes a circle in the sky. 

Speaking of which and after experiencing it, it is very surreal. It also makes me wonder if the 24 hours of sun and 24 hours of no sun made it even harder for the men on the ships to deal with things, especially the ones who had never experienced it. It seems like it could just lead to added stress since on top of the food poisoning, the scurvy, the cramped quarters and the general danger you are also dealing with the stress of your internal clock being all messed up.

On the plus side, the constant sunshine of those months would make it easier for them to navigate by landmarks -- we've seen pretty detailed maps in several scenes with the Captains and officers, Blanky, etc., so that probably helps when they aren't able to make true noon observations (or celestial ones). On the down side, I know this resulted in a lot of the men dealing with such further physical hurdles as being both freezing and sunburned at the same time, and dealing with snow-blindness hampering their vision.

I've been to Alaska a few times, and also live in the Seattle area, so I've experienced white nights, and even in Seattle, in summer the sun goes down around 11 or so, and starts rising again at 3-4 a.m. In winter (right now, for instance), the it gets light very slowly, maybe by 10 a.m., and starts to get dark at 3 p.m., and it definitely affects your inner clock. I would agree with you that this had to affect the men as well, although after a few years in the Arctic at this point, perhaps they would have been used to it.