S02.E19: It's Hard to Say Goodbye

[AnnaRose]

Quote

Katie and Greg struggle to help the kids accept loss as a family friend suddenly passes away and as their pet pig, Hans Gruber, must be returned to his natural habitat.

I must say I am glad Hans Gruber is being returned to where he belongs.  I wonder what family friend suddenly dies?  Maybe the next door neighbor?

[Yeah No]

19 minutes ago, AnnaRose said:

I must say I am glad Hans Gruber is being returned to where he belongs.  I wonder what family friend suddenly dies?  Maybe the next door neighbor?

Maybe they're killing off George Hamilton's character?  I hope not!

I also hope that what happens to Hans Gruber isn't like what happened to Piggy on "My Big Fat Fabulous Life" - He was returned to a pig farm after living with a family and then died not that long after from some mysterious virus or whatever.  It's hard for animals that haven't been raised in their natural habitats to return to them later in life.  Of course, this show is fictional so Hans will probably be OK.

[Nordly Beaumont]

Wow, that kid nailed the hell out of his good bye to Hans/Spencer scene. No, I'm not crying, you're crying!

[AnnaRose]

24 minutes ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Wow, that kid nailed the hell out of his good bye to Hans/Spencer scene. No, I'm not crying, you're crying!

Yes!  That was very impressive.  Terrific episode all around.  I laughed a lot and cried a bunch too.  Awww, Spencer, I'm going to miss you.

[Kimmmmmm]

Have to admit...I liked Anna-Kat this episode...also have to admit I won't miss Spencer.  Sorry, but he gave me the creeps.  Good episode tonight!

[Commando Cody]

The only role I ever liked George Hamilton in and they killed him off.

The crying scene with the son at the end was well done though. 

[Yeah No]

I agree.  Great episode but still bummed about George Hamilton's character being killed off, especially right after losing his ankle bracelet.  I also thought it was kind of a bummer that Hans Gruber had to share a goodbye episode with him too.  I understand how the theme was all about goodbyes but his departure was kind of overshadowed a bit by George's.  And yeah to Daniel DiMaggio's fantastic crying scene, though!

I'm usually against Katie meddling and being mean spirited but cheered her on when she decimated those "mean girls".  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

25 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I'm usually against Katie meddling and being mean spirited but cheered her on when she decimated those "mean girls".  

I was pretty sure it was going to make them immediately even meaner to Taylor.  "What a crybaby! She complained to her mother!"  For kids Ana-Kat's age, I could see her talking to their moms, but this seemed like a big mistake.

Edited March 22, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[lark37]

Laughed and cried with this episode. I've been posting since season one that Oliver (dimaggio) is an impressive young actor because of his comedic timing, but this episode showed his dramatic chops as well. Actually all three Otto children are good actors. Goodbye George H and Hans Gruber, I will miss both of you!

[iMonrey]

I'm going to go against the grain here because I honestly don't think the kid who plays Oliver can do "crying" worth crap. The character itself is fairly monotone by nature so it's rare to see any emotion out of him but I cringed at the crying scene, it sounded really forced and fake. Kid needs some acting lessons.

Bright side I'm glad they finally did something about the pig because that was getting ridiculous.

[floridamom]

Oh no, I liked the George Hamilton character. Why did they have to kill him off? Not a good idea IMO.

[Bobbin]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm going to go against the grain here because I honestly don't think the kid who plays Oliver can do "crying" worth crap.

Not every child actor is a Shirley Temple or a Johnny Crawford. And this is a sitcom, not an Oscar nominee. The bar is significantly lower. Opinions may vary, but come on. Showing deep emotion isn't in the job description.

On Modern Family, young Luke (Nolan Gould) said goodbye to his elderly neighbor friend through his actions, not with tears.

Does anyone else see a little Wednesday Addams in Anna-Kat?

I hope "saying goodbye" was meant just for George Hamilton and the pig, not the show.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bobbin
Added thought.

[Kip Hackman]

On 3/23/2018 at 2:41 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm going to go against the grain here because I honestly don't think the kid who plays Oliver can do "crying" worth crap. The character itself is fairly monotone by nature so it's rare to see any emotion out of him but I cringed at the crying scene, it sounded really forced and fake. Kid needs some acting lessons.

Agreed.  I think that Daniel DiMaggio generally does a great job in this role, but I wasn't buying any of that ..... and my sitcom expectations are pretty low. 

[Yeah No]

On 3/23/2018 at 2:41 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm going to go against the grain here because I honestly don't think the kid who plays Oliver can do "crying" worth crap. The character itself is fairly monotone by nature so it's rare to see any emotion out of him but I cringed at the crying scene, it sounded really forced and fake. Kid needs some acting lessons.

I kind of took that aspect of the crying as being intentional - a rare awkward blurt-out from a person that would usually be too uncomfortable to make such emotional outbursts.  When it does come out it looks all weird and out of proportion, and feels forced and fake, and supremely cringe-worthy.  It came out kind of like a caricature of real emotions, because his character is normally not able to exist on such a real level.  So I saw his acting there as being spot-on and in character considering Oliver's personality.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Yeah No

[theatremouse]

I really disliked that scene. It felt SO contrived that Katie went from worrying Oliver might be a sociopath who never "got there" to the extremely clunky "this is the last time you'll ever see him" about the pig triggering the transference moment. We never saw any sign that Oliver gave a shit about the pig, so his reaction to leaving the pig, his first reaction, was completely in character, regardless of whatever else happened. There was no logical reason for Katie to say what she did other than as a forced segue to that scene. I didn't like it one bit. I knew they were probably going in the direction of "Oliver gets all emotional about the pig instead" the second they had both the "send him to the farm" and the death happen in the same episode, but how they got there was even clunkier than having him just unexpectedly respond that way. It almost felt like a tiny fake-out "ha! you thought we'd do the predictable thing and have him cry about the pig, no we won't! Just kidding, yes we absolutely will!"

[lark37]

11 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

I really disliked that scene. It felt SO contrived that Katie went from worrying Oliver might be a sociopath who never "got there" to the extremely clunky "this is the last time you'll ever see him" about the pig triggering the transference moment. We never saw any sign that Oliver gave a shit about the pig, so his reaction to leaving the pig, his first reaction, was completely in character, regardless of whatever else happened. There was no logical reason for Katie to say what she did other than as a forced segue to that scene. I didn't like it one bit. I knew they were probably going in the direction of "Oliver gets all emotional about the pig instead" the second they had both the "send him to the farm" and the death happen in the same episode, but how they got there was even clunkier than having him just unexpectedly respond that way. It almost felt like a tiny fake-out "ha! you thought we'd do the predictable thing and have him cry about the pig, no we won't! Just kidding, yes we absolutely will!"

It was Oliver who went with Greg to get the pig for the barbeque in the episode where they brought Hans Gruber home because they couldn't kill him. I don't think its fair to say Oliver didn't care about Hans.  As for the actor sounding fake or forced when crying, I think the sound editing was partly to blame. It seemed as if they were afraid we couldn't hear his crying into Katie's shoulder so they amped up the sound to an unnatural level. I still think DiMaggio is doing a fine acting job as Oliver especially compared to the child actors on some of the other sitcoms.

[theatremouse]

I did not find the actor forced when crying. I'm saying the scene itself was forced by Katie's clunky line that prefaced it. My objection has nothing to do with the acting; I'm complaining about the writing.

[lark37]

Sorry theatre mouse the part about the acting seeming forced was in response to other posters who called it forced.  Unfortunately my tablet wasn't letting me quote more than one post. 

[JasmineFlower]

Maybe it's just me since no one has mentioned it, but I did not enjoy Anna-Kat this episode because of one line and Greg needs to step up his parenting big time. I get that we're here for the jokes, but Anna-Kat basically called her mom a fat pig and while I thought it was good not to share with Katie what was said and hurt her feelings unnecessarily, I could've done with actually showing on screen that smart-mouth shit like that about your own freaking mother is a no go in that house and not to lash out just because you're a spoiled brat who might not get her way this time. Cannot believe they just left that line sitting there with no action by Greg.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, JasmineFlower said:

Maybe it's just me since no one has mentioned it, but I did not enjoy Anna-Kat this episode because of one line and Greg needs to step up his parenting big time. I get that we're here for the jokes, but Anna-Kat basically called her mom a fat pig and while I thought it was good not to share with Katie what was said and hurt her feelings unnecessarily, I could've done with actually showing on screen that smart-mouth shit like that about your own freaking mother is a no go in that house and not to lash out just because you're a spoiled brat who might not get her way this time. Cannot believe they just left that line sitting there with no action by Greg.

What was the line?

[AnnaRose]

2 hours ago, JasmineFlower said:

Maybe it's just me since no one has mentioned it, but I did not enjoy Anna-Kat this episode because of one line and Greg needs to step up his parenting big time. I get that we're here for the jokes, but Anna-Kat basically called her mom a fat pig and while I thought it was good not to share with Katie what was said and hurt her feelings unnecessarily, I could've done with actually showing on screen that smart-mouth shit like that about your own freaking mother is a no go in that house and not to lash out just because you're a spoiled brat who might not get her way this time. Cannot believe they just left that line sitting there with no action by Greg.

Huh.  I don't remember it like that at all.  I'd have to rewatch to make sure, but I think what happened was the Anna-Kat's dad told her they had to get rid of Hans Grueber because he got too big, to which Anna-Kat replied that he didn't get rid of his wife when she was pregnant with Taylor.

[JasmineFlower]

15 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

What was the line?

Exactly from the scene:

Greg: "Anna-Kat, Hans Gruber has to go to a farm, he's gotten too big."

Anna-Kat: "You didn't send Mom to a farm after she had Taylor." (Slams bedroom door)

 

@AnnaRose I think that's exactly what she did, and even if there's a slightly less offensive interpretation,  it's still offensive and I'm not okay with any version of it. She's equating her mother to a pig, and she's calling her fat at the same time. All because she's not getting her way. In other situations where something more serious that crosses the line pops out of their mouths, Katie typically steps in to set them straight. Anna-Kat seems to get away with more than the others, but this was too much to me. And if Greg didn't think it was a big deal, he would't have covered for what Anna-Kat said when Katie asked, but he did.

[AnnaRose]

Kid Logic:  Dad says beloved pet can't live at home anymore because he's gotten too big.  ...Hey, Mom was bigger after she had a baby, and you didn't get rid of her!   Kids always look for stuff like that to use in an argument.  Like hey, you didn't make Taylor do this or that etc when there were similar circumstances.  

I'm sure you can infer that she meant her mom got fat, which I think is how Katie refers to herself on occasion, or a more generous interpretation that she simply acknowledged that Katie was bigger after having kids (like most women are) ... but she never equated her to a pig IMO, nor called her a fat pig.  YMMV, obviously.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

17 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

Kid Logic:  Dad says beloved pet can't live at home anymore because he's gotten too big.  ...Hey, Mom was bigger after she had a baby, and you didn't get rid of her!   Kids always look for stuff like that to use in an argument.  Like hey, you didn't make Taylor do this or that etc when there were similar circumstances.  

I'm sure you can infer that she meant her mom got fat, which I think is how Katie refers to herself on occasion, or a more generous interpretation that she simply acknowledged that Katie was bigger after having kids (like most women are) ... but she never equated her to a pig IMO, nor called her a fat pig.  YMMV, obviously.

 

18 hours ago, JasmineFlower said:

Greg: "Anna-Kat, Hans Gruber has to go to a farm, he's gotten too big."

Anna-Kat: "You didn't send Mom to a farm after she had Taylor." (Slams bedroom door)

I would agree that it's a weird thing for Anna-Kat to say since she certainly wasn't around when Taylor was born, so how would she know what her mother looked like after giving birth compared to pre-pregnancy, unless she was poring through photo albums, except....Katie has repeatedly blamed her weight on the kids, as if it was their fault that she was pregnant with them.  Anna-Kat is a very good listener. Repeating what her mom has often said isn't rude, to my mind, given the context.  Even though she didn't hear this particular retort, Katie sometimes reaps what she sows.  (Since Hans Gruber is presumably a boar, not a sow, I'm not making a heteronym joke.)

Edited March 27, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[JasmineFlower]

We can agree to disagree. It's not something I would ever think to say in any version to my mother or anyone else's for that matter, I don't find that an acceptable comment or tone from a kid and I'm not a fan of any part of that scene ending without a comment to Anna-Kat that impresses upon her to adopt a new tone and that remark was not anything close to okay.

I feel like the explanations you guys have given are a lot of of qualifications to explain away and make better what Anna-Kat said. Maybe she meant this, maybe she's influenced by that, using kid's logic, etc. When I'm saying flat out, I don't like what came out of Anna-Kat's mouth. Period. I don't care what comes out of Katie's mouth regularly, kids definitely pick up on things, but this was a step too far to go without a comment to me regardless. If it was so okay in that house, Greg wouldn't have had a horrified look on his face and lied to Katie. If you'd be okay with your kids, nieces, and nephews making this comment about you, your friends, your sisters, your mom,  or some other adult, then that's where we differ. I don't find this acceptable. You can't make that line sound good to me.

[AnnaRose]

It's not like Katie doesn't know she's big.  She's not in denial but rather talks about it all the time, often noting how she was smaller/slimmer/skinnier before she had kids. 

Anna-Kat loves her pet and was railing against the perceived unfairness of the - he's bigger so he can't stay here anymore - reasoning Greg put forth.  It wasn't too surprising for her to try to win her point by using her mom as an example of just because a loved one gets bigger they're no longer welcome.  They acted like Hans Gruber was member of the family, so I could see a six year old taking that leap.  Or at least grasping at straws and hoping it would work.  She was very attached to it.

[zoey1996]

20 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

It's not like Katie doesn't know she's big.  She's not in denial but rather talks about it all the time... It wasn't too surprising for her to try to win her point by using her mom as an example of just because a loved one gets bigger they're no longer welcome.  They acted like Hans Gruber was member of the family, so I could see a six year old taking that leap.  Or at least grasping at straws and hoping it would work.  She was very attached to it.

Perhaps, but Anna-Kat is 9 (or very close to it), given her 8th birthday episode when she wants to walk to the library by herself last season.  Given that Greg seems ineffectual when trying to discipline the kids, it may not be all that surprising that he lets Anna-Kat get away with that disrespectful retort.  But it was rude!