S13.E15: A Most Holy Man

[Myrelle]

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 6:21 AM, Aeryn13 said:

While I liked the Priest character, the episode validating his outlook was ridiculously simplistic. Dean`s stance was self-aware and pretty much correct. They have never been perfect and they can`t afford to be so now. 

Sam suddenly being all dainty and pearl-clutching about stealing and then doing a 180 once he likes what the Priest is telling him? Annoyingly predictable. And not very endearing. Of course he spent the entire episode being all superior and disdain-ful of his stupid uncouth brother. Fantastic. My very least flavour of the character. 

Of course we got some dumb!Dean digs thrown in. 

At least the "holy man" stayed a random dude and wasn`t Sam so thank you for small favours. 

The Mafia shenanigans were just stupid to me. 

All in all, it was a script I kinda expected from Dabb and Singer. They make their views on the brothers pretty clear and in the process make themselves look like assholes.   

Exactly.

 

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 6:58 AM, Bergamot said:

Yes, I think maybe what annoyed me most about the episode was not the boring plot, or even these writers' lazy parodies of who Dean and Sam are as characters, in place of the three-dimensional people we have watched them develop into over the years. It was actually the priest being presented as the "most holy man" and the voice of wisdom for the brothers.

Sure, he is a nice guy, and he had done a lot of charity work throughout his life. But there was no indication that he had ever faced down any true evil in the world, or ever had to make any agonizing choices when trying to do the right thing, or ever had to suffer in any way for what he believed before now. Has he ever had to sacrifice someone he loved for the greater good, or confronted God to His face and asked him why he did nothing about all the pain in the world? He was given this supposedly important mission of getting back the skull, but was ready to give up when things didn't go according to plan. Good thing it was just an old skull and not someone's life at stake.

Yet this man was giving Dean and Sam a little lecture about not giving enough effort to try to make the world a better place,  because of their "sins" and their "failings" and their "laziness"? Sure, he didn't know anything about them, and he was charmingly self-deprecating about his little sermon ("I'm sorry, I know I talk too much.") It was still bizarre the way that they acted as if he was talking about something they had never considered before.

This episode was such a shallow, facile portrayal of faith and holiness. I definitely did not want either Dean or Sam to qualify as the "most holy", but why not dig a little deeper, even in what was supposed to be a "light" episode? Making the object of their quest turn out to be this nice, naive priest, his holiness rubber-stamped on him by the Pope himself, was just about the most uninteresting story choice they could have made. Just think how interesting it would have been if the holy man had turned out to be someone you never would have expected, someone whose holiness was not apparent to the world, someone who appeared totally unimportant or off-putting in some way but still was making the world a better place. Go in a direction I didn't expect, Supernatural writers -- at least put a little effort into it.

These two posts sum it up pretty well for me, too-especially the bolded parts. So sorry Dabb and Singer, but you get an F on this one all-around from me, even(and especially!) in the effort dept.

Still, and as usual, Mr. Ackles kept it from being a complete waste of my time with all of his interactions with the mob guys and his attempt at imbuing something "more" into that BM at the end. He acted like he didn't give a fuck if they shot him dead right then and there, in all of the mob scenes and even when they held a gun to his head; and that end scene had me wondering if what Dean was saying was strictly just for Sam, which, for better or worse, still kind of undermined what will probably and mostly likely turn out to be yet another very facile(thank you, MTE!) writing effort from this now predominantly talentless and mediocre writing team.

And while I felt that The Ackting was also great when Dean put forth what he would do to someone who stole Baby from him, that aspect of the character seeming to be what Dabb and his cronies see as a "defining" characteristic of Dean's just rankles because of how often they've attempted to push that thought of theirs on to the viewer, also. I hate that.

[Katy M]

Never mind.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Katy M

[Princess Sparkle]

Mod Reminder: If an episode has not aired yet, it is considered a spoiler and does not belong in the episode thread. Multiple posts have been removed.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

I don't recall the tablet had any effect on Cas one way or another. She controlled him before he touched it and Dean getting through to Cas broke the connection to Naomi along with Cas fighting it.

All the programming was from Naomi. Cas just decided it couldn't go to heaven or stay with humans.

So to that end. I don't see Cas being affected by the demon tablet. The only thing that could happen IMO is that if he took all the data in Donny's head, the words in a certain order could harm him. But not the tablet iitself doing something. It's not like the Book of the Damned calling to Dean. IMO

Dean broke the connection, caused him to stop.  But holding the tablet completely separated him from her.  It was a two-step effect.  And Crowley even talked about it as to why he felt Cas would hid the thing in his gut (which he did).

[Leunar]

I've waited a long time for this episode, it was really interesting, but I feel ... Underrated?
The creators treat the viewers a bit naively, as long as the whole episode was high, the end all ruined

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, Leunar said:

I've waited a long time for this episode, it was really interesting, but I feel ... Underrated?
The creators treat the viewers a bit naively, as long as the whole episode was high, the end all ruined

I don't understand this sentence.  Could you expand?

[dingochick]

Mr. dingochick and I LOVED the episode. We dug the stylized tone and feel, the nod to film noir, the scoring, just everything, including the guest actors.  This ep also reminded me of Angel, a bit, first season. 

It was nice to see the boys on a case like this, without monsters beyond those which are human, and so satisfying to hear Dean say that he had faith at the end.

A big win for us was also the lack of Lucifer and Castiel. I almost cheered when I saw the credits without Pellegrino’s name...but then, I have never much cared for the angels and demons arc(s).

[takalotti]

I’m a bit slow on the uptake. It wasn’t until the boys escaped the radiator and were out in the alley that I realized this one was being done Film Noir style. Then I thought "Ohhhh, so THAT’S why the scene where they met Margaret was so weird."

 

Hold up. Let me get this straight.

 

In The Bad Place, Kaia has abilities that could get them to AW. When she says she’s too scared to do it, Dean shows his gun and uses it to gesture her to get in the car. When she still says no, he puts the gun in her face and screams at her to get in the car.

In this episode, Greenstreet has an ingredient to get them to the AW. When he says it would cost them more than they can afford, good day, Dean just shakes his head and walks away.

Seriously?

Okay, I know context is a little different. In TBP, Dean was reeling from JUST finding out that not only was he wrong about his mom being dead, but also seeing that she's being tortured, plus Kaia was the one missing piece they needed, not the first of four unobtained ingredients. I get it, that first burst of emotional reaction can make you do things you wouldn’t normally. But as far as he knows Mary is still being tortured. With all the time that’s gone by, shouldn’t he be just as desperate to force someone to give them what they need? He'll pull a gun on a teenaged girl (empty threat or no), but he won’t bumrush a rich dude? I’d buy it more if we’d seen his security detail.

 

Would it have worked better if Sam had said "Great. MORE stealing" instead of "So, this is what we’ve come to?" It would have acknowledged that they have already "come to" thievery instead of acting like this was anything new. But it would have also allowed for Sam to crab about it, which leads to Dean's "not perfect" speech, which leads to the Father's "imperfection shouldn’t be an excuse" speech, so the writers can still keep whatever message they were going for. I don’t think that kind of crabbing would be a contradiction for Sam. He may have come to terms with the necessity of stealing and justified it to himself (theft for expenses is okay since being a hunter 100% of the time doesn’t allow for a job with a legit paycheck, or it’s a deal for something they need that is more important than the stealing in the big picture), but that doesn’t mean he likes it.

 

The Father looks a bit like Jean Claude Van Damm to me.

 

Spoiler for 13.17

Spoiler

It would appear Dean decided to learn from Sam’s preparedness with the handy lockpick.

 

Is it weird that Baby was parked so close to the building that I can’t imagine the passenger side could have been used? I guess the bench seat arrangement doesn’t make it weird? ??‍♀️

 

The exchanged looks after Scarpatti says "whacked" cracks me up every time.

 

FWIW, I can buy Sam being skittish around the mob and stuff, even though he faces monsters and demons on a regular basis. I think Sam finds monsters predictable, but people not so much. Also, I can see how being in a situation with a monster that you have no qualms with killing would be less scary than being in a situation with a human, who they generally try not to kill even when they’re bad.

All that said, it seemed like it was only done this episode to amplify Dean's ballsiness.

 

I don’t know much about customs and baggage x-ray machines in this context, but is it surprising that the Father was able to come over with that much cash on him?

 

I’m rather indifferent to the Film Noir style, but I did enjoy the twist upon twist upon twist. I didn’t mind that there weren’t any monsters, though this definitely wasn’t a "psycho humans can be scarier than monsters" situation. I liked that there weren’t any demons, or Ketch, or Lucifer. Wouldn’t have a problem with Cas being around, but I wasn’t put out that he was away. (@Katy M, I posted a couple ideas about Cas' trip in the cas thread)

 

On 3/8/2018 at 9:14 PM, catrox14 said:

I am SO TIRED of the same stupid conversation about saving people, will it ever end..blah blah blah. Sigh....NO IT WON'T EVER END, Sam. You know this.

It does sound a lot like their past conversations ("It ends bloody" and the likes), especially Mary and Sam convincing themselves that teaming up with the BMoL was to end all monsters. But I still read this one a little differently. It didn’t sound like despair to me (When will it end) but hope (Maybe we COULD get rid of all monsters). And I feel like TBTP are trying to tie it to the 'Jack brings paradise on Earth' concept and/or how the show will end.

 

On 3/8/2018 at 9:19 PM, MysteryGuest said:

The scene with the priest and Dean in the car discussing God was actually a bit depressing to me. And I'm not the least bit religious. But it's one of the main reasons I never wanted God to make an appearance on this show. They've pulled back the curtain on absolutely everything, and there's no mystery left, or hope, for that matter. I really wish they'd never done that.

I understand your reading. I’m also not religious in the sense that I don’t buy into any religion, but I’m not atheist either. FWIW, though, I didn’t find that scene depressing even with how God has been in the SPNverse. Yeah, God took off. But the priest specifically said it’s not that he believed there would be direct divine intervention, but rather that there are still good things and THAT'S where he finds God. On this show, God made us and made free will, so even if he’s on vacation with his sister, he's still an ingredient in all the things that happen even though he didn’t choose to make them happen. So he’s still here, even when he’s not here.

Edited April 17, 2018 by takalotti

[Lunula]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:05 PM, Lemuria said:

Why is Sam regressing to his Season 1 attitudes?  He tutored Claire in credit card fraud, engaged in a heist caper not all that long ago, has stolen cars--etcetera etcetera--but suddenly (and hypocritically, ,IMO) he's offended by it all?

My impression wasn’t that he was indignant about the actual thieving, but that they were doing it for hire. Being your own boss vs. working for someone else and all. 

[The Companion]

 

On 3/9/2018 at 9:39 AM, Bergamot said:

I liked that part too – and the way he went into a little trance thinking about it; it made me laugh! I also loved that frighteningly ice-cold look that he gave the thug before he handed over his keys to him. Fortunately for the thug, the man blurted out a compliment to Baby – probably the only thing that saved him!

I also liked Dean being so unimpressed and unintimidated by the mob boss. It was kind of a breath of fresh air in the episode to see Dean acting like someone who has actually had all the experiences we have seen him have. (What was Sam being so nervous about?)  A man like Dean who has faced down and fought and killed angels and demons and monsters, and survived both hell and purgatory, is not going to be scared by a thug or two threatening him with a gun. The mob guys thought they were tough, but they were totally out of their league. (I thought at first that they were too dumb to see this plain truth, but then I got the impression that they might have begun to dimly realize it.)

I really enjoyed both of those scenes. Dean's detailed list of consequences for hurting baby was really very well done, IMO. And I loved the scene where he was pushing the mob boss.

On 3/9/2018 at 2:36 PM, Jakes said:

Well I really liked it--took me a bit to get into the tone and light hearted feel but it ended up a very entertaining change of pace.  Dean talking murder if someone stole baby was hilarious.  And Dean, it does seem he has faith that TFW can fix things and maybe that is way Chuck works as the Holy Man implied.

 

Me too. I admittedly haven't seen The Maltese Falcon and don't watch a ton of mob or noir movies, so something was missing for me. I figured they were doing a thing and waved of the out of character moments because of that. In the end, I realized I was actually really enjoying the episode. When it ended, I realized I had really liked it.

So, I guess it was a win for me, despite some valid criticism in this thread.