S13.E15: A Most Holy Man

[Diane]

DIVINE INTERVENTION – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are close to collecting everything they need to open a rift into the apocalyptic world and possibly rescuing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert). The one missing ingredient leads the Winchesters to a black market for religious relics where everything is not always as it seems.  Writer: Andrew Dabb and Robert Singer, Director: Amanda Tapping

[catrox14]

Sorry I missed last week :(.

[bethy]

Biggest takeaway is that I really loved having Dean and Sam actually work a case. Together. 

I do wish that I got the feeling that Sam actually enjoys his brother these days. So much of the time I feel like he mostly just looks pained when Dean says or does anything. That was a nice scene at the end, though.

Sam all offended about being asked to steal something was a little odd to me. "So now we're theives?" Stealing something from the mob seems like small potatoes to me in terms of what they've been willing to do to save the world before. 

I loved Dean's attitude with the mobster. Other than the guns on them, why should Dean be intimidated by that guy?

Aw. I like the padre. I like his little pep talk - if good men do good things, it can be better. Preach it, Father.

Too bad Dean and Sam couldn't run into Liv and Major while they were in Seattle. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I am not sure what I just watched.  A wannabe Bela, a wannabe caper film, a mobster movie? If it weren't for Dean's snark and Sam's mopiness, I wouldn't know it was an episode of SPN.

The very last words from Dean - one of the rare times I felt like it was Jensen on the screen.

All around weird episode.

The best part was Dean's explanation of what he'd do if someone stole Baby. Murder. Torture, then murder.

Edited March 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

I don't know why Sam was so outraged that they should be thieves or whatever. They did the same thing just a few epis ago in Scorpion and the Frog. And they also did it (with complete innocents, which was not the case here) in Meet the New Boss.

I love it when they razz each other and roll their eyes at each other. So, in that regard, this was a pretty enjoyable episode with Dean's eyeroll's at Margaret's Sam crush. Dean telling Sam he was like a boy scout (and why was he not prepared in that regard, that was ridiculous) and Sam saying he didn't know what Dean was. And the hair remark. They were totally brothers tonight.

And, I think getting that skull stolen was the best thing that could have happened to that church. Not supposed to worship objects. But, they got it back, so I guess nothing will change on that front.

That was conveniently convenient that the priest was named a most holy man by the pope. It makes me wonder how these spells can tell different blood types apart. Like how is a virgin's blood different, and a most holy man's and a MOL legacy. Whatever

[Lemuria]

Why is Sam regressing to his Season 1 attitudes?  He tutored Claire in credit card fraud, engaged in a heist caper not all that long ago, has stolen cars--etcetera etcetera--but suddenly (and hypocritically, ,IMO) he's offended by it all?

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The best part was Dean's explanation of what he'd do if someone stole Baby. Murder. Torture, then murder.

I forgot about that.  I loved that part, too.  I'm  half surprised he didn't allow the mobster to shoot him as he threw the keys into a sewer so they couldn't have Baby.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

I forgot about that.  I loved that part, too.  I'm  half surprised he didn't allow the mobster to shoot him as he threw the keys into a sewer so they couldn't have Baby.

Those were some pretty polite and accommodating mobsters. LOL!

It's weird that nobody seemed fussed by all the murdering there at the end. I guess even wanting to sleep with Sam gets a girl killed these days. Heh. But considering all the moralizing over 'thievery', murder doesn't even get a comment.

[Pondlass1]

I don't think this episode is going to be popular.  But I loved it.  It was like a caper movie.  And it looked and felt expensive for some reason.

they can't be subtle to save their lives tho.  I has the priest pegged as the holy man right away.  Certainly not Dean, the guy that would torture and then murder anyone that stole Baby. Lol

loved it!!!

[catrox14]

Was that an episode of SPN?

I liked the Priest. Also, yay to us who said it would be a random dude. I count the Priest as a random dude. LOL

I am SO TIRED of the same stupid conversation about saving people, will it ever end..blah blah blah. Sigh....NO IT WON'T EVER END, Sam. You know this.

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The very last words from Dean - one of the rare times I felt like it was Jensen on the screen.

SAME.

[Lemuria]

I didn't like the lockpicking nonsense (yet again) and I didn't like the priest (unknowingly, true) countering Dean's comment about it not being a perfect world.  For a priest, bettering the world may be the primary goal but those who are charged with actually saving it may not have the luxury of being saintly in all they do.  The priest really doesn't know what, and who, is out there or what they're really like.  And I guess I was annoyed at Sam's rush to adopt that attitude--well, at least until the s**t hit the fan.  Hypocritical much, Sammy?

I did like that when Sam first raised the stealing issue, Dean stood his ground.  And I liked Dean talking to the mob boss (whose name escapes me.  MB from here on!).  Despite Sam's bitchface, the MB appreciated the attitude.  It reminded me of "Hammer of the Gods," with Dean reading the room well enough to realize that the gods only appreciated strength and then going the "chuckleheads" route, while Sam seemed to want to disown him.  Yet, Dean got them to agree to let the other humans go.

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't dislike the episode, but not a lot really happened.  Yes, they were able to secure one of the four needed items to open the rift, but with only 8 episodes left this season, and one of those a cartoon, it seems like we're heading for a repeat of last season where everything's resolved in the last 5 minutes of the final episode.  I was really hoping we'd start to tie up some of the evil loose ends that are out there.  

It did seem like a mashup of other episodes, though.  I just can't help but lament the fact that they could have taken this show in about a dozen different directions that would have been infinitely more enjoyable than another apocalypse.  Are these writers really incapable of coming up with new ideas, or is it Dabb and Singer who are keeping everyone in the same angel/demon rut?  It's just such a waste of a great cast and the whole "supernatural" premise of the show.  

The scene with the priest and Dean in the car discussing God was actually a bit depressing to me.  And I'm not the least bit religious.  But it's one of the main reasons I never wanted God to make an appearance on this show.  They've pulled back the curtain on absolutely everything, and there's no mystery left, or hope, for that matter.  I really wish they'd never done that.

[AwesomO4000]

That was kinda weird. Some parts were enjoyable.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I am SO TIRED of the same stupid conversation about saving people, will it ever end..blah blah blah. Sigh....NO IT WON'T EVER END, Sam. You know this.

Seriously - when am I going to get the real Sam back. This mopey no hope version is sort of annoying.

[BoxManLocke]

Can't believe before the episode I was bummed that the hiatus was coming because it might've stopped the momentum after a decent couple of episodes. Thankfully, no momentum whatsoever was created, and I can safely jump into the hiatus and quickly forget about SPN ! Dodged a bullet there, thanks Dabb/Singer (who somehow needed to join forces to write whatever the hell that was).

 

Anyway, the only remarkable thing about the episode is how boring it was. Take away the really lame gangster movie overlay and there was absolutely nothing there. I'm usually very tolerant of episodes where Sam & Dean are alone on a case but holy crap you've at least got to give me something to work with. The guest-stars were crap, the stakes were extremely low because Sam and Dean were surrounded by pseudo comical human characters, and the atmosphere was cheap and weak like gangster movie 101. An episode like this would've suited Steve Yockey better I think as he likes to go over the top with his references and create colorful characters. Instead this felt bland from beginning to end.

 

The Sam & Dean convos were boring and still rehashing the same crap without going anywhere, Dean getting the faith back thanks to the priest's pep talk was lame, that last shooting scene was awful (with the only female character getting killed first of course, gonna give that idea to Singer) and the brothers miraculously getting what they were searching for at the last second just added a lovely touch of laziness.

 

The only thing this episode accomplished was making me want to watch iZombie's new season because the redhead actress used to be in it. So I'll definitely end up having a good time.

 

Jesus fucking christ season 14 can't come soon enough.

Edited March 9, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[gonzosgirrl]

Four ingredients needed to open the rift and stop Michael from wreaking havoc. Four rings needed to open the cage and stop Lucifer from wreaking havoc.

Lather, rinse, repeat?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Four ingredients needed to open the rift and stop Michael from wreaking havoc. Four rings needed to open the cage and stop Lucifer from wreaking havoc.

Lather, rinse, repeat?

OH gods I didn't even make that connection. LOL

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Can't believe before the episode I was bummed that the hiatus was coming because it might've stopped the momentum after a decent couple of episodes.

Another hiatus?  Didn't we just have one?  

I agree with Sam.  It's been one world-ending crisis after another.  It would absolutely get old after a while and I think you'd be more than ready to throw in the towel.  I know it's boring for this viewer.  Having them set up their own Men of Letters, and interacting with other hunters, while fighting smart, organized and aligned monsters would have been so much more interesting, IMO.  Let the angel/demon saga be the backstory.  

[BoxManLocke]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Another hiatus?  Didn't we just have one?  

I agree with Sam.  It's been one world-ending crisis after another.  It would absolutely get old after a while and I think you'd be more than ready to throw in the towel.  I know it's boring for this viewer.  Having them set up their own Men of Letters, and interacting with other hunters, while fighting smart, organized and aligned monsters would have been so much more interesting, IMO.  Let the angel/demon saga be the backstory.  

Yeah I don't know why they're cutting up the season like this, but episode 16 is on march 29th.

That last conversation was a bit funny to me considering Sam and Dean had the opportunity to end a big part of the evil on earth and didn't take it. Also most of the apocalypses Sam was refering to were created by the brothers themselves in their attempts to save each other. At least they seem to have learned that this just creates more chaos.
I'm so sick of the angels and demons crap. Trying to relive the show's golden days is a huge mistake. These days are gone and they're never coming back. Just try something new and stick with it.

[ILoveReading]

Here is an episode that hits by bottom 20. 

Dislikes.

• It's becoming obvious Dabb and Singer are trying to prove me wrong that then they can't get lazier.  It's bad enough that they they're just copying and pasting the entire apocalypse but this was just copy and pasted from the Scorpion and The Frog.  Bad guys have something Sam and Dean need, they make a deal to steal something for bad guys, things go sideways. 
• It's obvious Dabb and Singer don't care anymore.  The'yre just going through the motions. 
• I loved Dean's line, "This world isn't perfect, if I'm not perfect saving it so what."  So, of course, they had to go an and completely invalidate it with the Priest's speech about its just an excuse to justify bad behavior.  Of course they had to validate St. Sam and his holier than thou attitude. 
• What was up with Sam's attitude toward Dean in his one?  Why was he up on such a high horse?  It's episodes like this where I question if Sam even likes Dean.  He seemed irritated and annoyed with Dean this entire episode.
• Then suddenly when the priest makes a speech that resonates with Sam, he's suddenly on board with stealing the skull. 
• Does Sam not remember what happened when he joined the British Men of Letters in an attempt to get rid of all monsters?
• Dean suddenly has faith?  Where did that come from?  This is why I don't believe Dean is burying his feelings or hiding anything.  He's too zen.
• In the obligatory BM even Jared and Jensen looked bored.  Like, like they were both thinking- "are we really doing this again?
• Since when doesn't doesn't Dean carry paper clips to pick a lock?
• I guess Sam and Dean killing humans is not longer considered a bad thing.

More of the dumb Dean/ smart Sam trope I dislike that seems standard these days.

There were a couple of things I did like (sadly, I can't list Dean's line anymore.)

• Dean sassing mob bosses.
• What he'd do if someone stole baby.  (Now, I want an episode were Baby is stolen)
• Dean walking into the fire fight with guns blazing.  That was all kids of hot.

[dfsutter]

25 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Can't believe before the episode I was bummed that the hiatus was coming because it might've stopped the momentum after a decent couple of episodes. Thankfully, no momentum whatsoever was created, and I can safely jump into the hiatus and quickly forget about SPN ! Dodged a bullet there, thanks Dabb/Singer (who somehow needed to join forces to write whatever the hell that was).

 

Anyway, the only remarkable thing about the episode is how boring it was. Take away the really lame gangster movie overlay and there was absolutely nothing there. I'm usually very tolerant of episodes where Sam & Dean are alone on a case but holy crap you've at least got to give me something to work with. The guest-stars were crap, the stakes were extremely low because Sam and Dean were surrounded by pseudo comical human characters, and the atmosphere was cheap and weak like gangster movie 101. An episode like this would've suited Steve Yockey better I think as he likes to go over the top with his references and create colorful characters. Instead this felt bland from beginning to end.

 

The Sam & Dean convos were boring and still rehashing the same crap without going anywhere, Dean getting the faith back thanks to the priest's pep talk was lame, that last shooting scene was awful (with the only female character getting killed first of course, gonna give that idea to Singer) and the brothers miraculously getting what they were searching for at the last second just added a lovely touch of laziness.

 

The only thing this episode accomplished was making me want to watch iZombie's new season because the redhead actress used to be in it. So I'll definitely end up having a good time.

 

Jesus fucking christ season 14 can't come soon enough.

Starting to feel like there isn't going to be a Season 14.  The guys look to me like they're just going through the motions and the writers obviously are.

[Wynne88]

I enjoyed it, and plan to do my best not to look too closely at details.  I really liked having an entire episode that was just Sam and Dean.  It doesn't happen very often anymore, and although I understand and sympathize with Jared and Jensen's desire to spend more time with their families, I really miss the episodes where it's just the two of them.

[BoxManLocke]

2 minutes ago, dfsutter said:

Starting to feel like there isn't going to be a Season 14.  The guys look to me like they're just going through the motions and the writers obviously are.

Nah it's happening, and it needs to. I don't want my last memory of the show to be season 13, that'd just be depressing. The only question is if they announce season 14 as the last in may ; if they don't, then 15 is a lock as well IMO.

 

I'm just hoping they'll pull out all the stops for the last season, bring back the best writers and try to make each episode a real event. Or make BuckLeming showrunners and end in the dumbest, most offensive way possible. Anyway don't let the show fizzle out like right now.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Yeah I don't know why they're cutting up the season like this, but episode 16 is on march 29th.

The first break was for the Olympics and I think the next one is for March Madness.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, BoxManLocke said:

Nah it's happening, and it needs to. I don't want my last memory of the show to be season 13, that'd just be depressing. The only question is if they announce season 14 as the last in may ; if they don't, then 15 is a lock as well IMO.

Unless they get a new show runner that gives a damn I don't think anything is going to change. 

 

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Having them set up their own Men of Letters, and interacting with other hunters, while fighting smart, organized and aligned monsters would have been so much more interesting,

Didn't Dabb say at the start of the season they were going smaller and concentrating on personal stories?

[Pondlass1]

Wait.. What?! The next episode is March 29th?

doesnt sound like the ratings will be good.  Maybe they stepped too far outside the box

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I enjoyed it, and plan to do my best not to look too closely at details.  I really liked having an entire episode that was just Sam and Dean.  It doesn't happen very often anymore, and although I understand and sympathize with Jared and Jensen's desire to spend more time with their families, I really miss the episodes where it's just the two of them.

I was happy to see Sam and Dean, I just wish the episode had more substance.  I didn't mind the caper part, though it is frustrating to have the boys contradicting themselves or acting outraged at behavior they do all the time.  I enjoyed the ending, and even though we've been discussing who would be the "most holy man", I honestly was surprised when the Padre translated what the Pope had said to him.  I'd sort of forgotten all about that.  Of course, I could just be really slow on the uptake. 

I genuinely enjoyed the beginning of this season, even though I wasn't thrilled with the myth arc.  But these feel like filler episodes lately, and not even MOTW fillers.  I'm trying to remember the last actual monster we've encountered?  With seemingly dozens of extra characters this season, how is it that there doesn't seem to be enough plot to fill episodes?

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Didn't Dabb say at the start of the season they were going smaller and concentrating on personal stories?

They've been promising this ever since God left town.  I believe "getting back to basics" was bandied about a few times, but then they just go right back to the angel/demon crap.  

[Bergamot]

The show really needs to just stop with these dreary, leadfooted "crime caper" episodes that are supposedly such sparkling fun and instead are so incredibly tedious. What's really sad is that it occurred to me that you could have made one group of antagonists in this episode into demons and another group into angels and it would have barely changed the story. I don't know if it is Dabb -- or Singer, or whoever -- that is obsessed with crime melodramas about mob bosses and their thugs, but they have really sucked the supernatural out of the show's portrayal of both angels and demons and made them dreary and tedious to watch as well.

[Castiels Cat]

Well they tried.  I give Singer and Dabb that. And they have balls to steal from the Maltese Falcon.
It could have been worse.  It also could have been so much better.  They threw in all of the right film noir tropes but  it just all seemed cliche'd in their hands.   And do not get me started on the goombas.
It was obvious,that the Priest was the holy man as soon as his profession was outed.
I hated the Sam pimping. Boy does Singer have a hard on for the character.  Of course I also enjoyed Dean's irritation. I like grumpy Dean almost as much as I like BAMF Dean.
Dean is exhibiting all of the traits I would expect him to at this point in the  mytharc.  He is badass, reckless and ready to get the job done anyway he can.  Besides saving family Dean"s reckless sacrifices also can involve taking out the big bad or multiple baddies.  Dean!Michael could provide grace and take out a lot of players involved in the usual chicanery.  This motivation has been absent until now. 
I thought J2 were fabulous.  

Edited March 9, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Pondlass1]

Only 26 posts following the episode? Yikes this is gonna be bad! 

Apathy is like death.

[BoxManLocke]

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Only 26 posts following the episode? Yikes this is gonna be bad! 

Apathy is like death.

There's very little reason to care about anything at this point in the season. And the standard of quality for a regular episode like this has cratered. So here we are. I know if I didn't have to make subtitles for the damn thing I wouldn't have bothered to post a review.

 

Nowadays to get a lot of reactions your best bet is a BuckLeming because it's just that special kind of crap that gets people talking. Maybe that's why they're still on the writing staff ?

[catrox14]

I reallly liked the actor who played the Priest. I really want him to show up again.

His name is Massi Furian.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2939724/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

Edited March 9, 2018 by catrox14

[Diane]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Another hiatus?  Didn't we just have one?  

I agree with Sam.  It's been one world-ending crisis after another.  It would absolutely get old after a while and I think you'd be more than ready to throw in the towel.  I know it's boring for this viewer.  Having them set up their own Men of Letters, and interacting with other hunters, while fighting smart, organized and aligned monsters would have been so much more interesting, IMO.  Let the angel/demon saga be the backstory.  

This year we had the Olympics and March Madness 

[Casseiopeia]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I reallly liked the actor who played the Priest. I really want him to show up again.

His name is Massi Furian.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2939724/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

The first break was for the Olympics and I think the next one is for March Madness.

Yeah, you really don't want to run new episodes against March Madness.

I liked the priest, and of course the woman who has a thing for Sam gets killed.  We need a crossover with Supernatural and The Flash, and for Sam and Caitlin to have a thing for one another.  Would that break the universe?

Since it was a heist episode, I would have liked to have seen Smash return.

[Casseiopeia]

Did anything supernatural happen in this episode of Supernatural?   I think we just watched Sam and Dean kill (in the stupidest shoot out ever) a bunch of people to get an artifact they didn't really need.  And should have realized that as soon as they met Camilleri like the entire audience did.  Just an odd episode for this late in the season.

[SueB]

That was fun.  A nice little film noir ala Supernatural.  First I wondered if the priest was legit, about 10 seconds later I realized .. ah... here's the Holy Man.  I really liked him. And I have no problem with the Maltese Falcon homage.  They named the character's Aster & Greenstreet.  I loved the nod.  

Quibble: Dear Dabb & Singer: The skull of St Peter would not be in an unsecured little monastery in a small village.  

I liked the vibe.  It was a nice change of pace.  Two thumbs up for Dean having no f*cks to give about a mafia Don.  And his conversation about God was a nice nod to their "relationship" challenges.  OTOH, his "I have faith." has me wondering if he simply has faith in the two of them or if the Priest helped him see the good in humanity.  

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Did anything supernatural happen in this episode of Supernatural?   I think we just watched Sam and Dean kill (in the stupidest shoot out ever) a bunch of people to get an artifact they didn't really need.  And should have realized that as soon as they met Camilleri like the entire audience did.  Just an odd episode for this late in the season.

This week's supernatural event was: A miracle.  The priest's bullet was just a scratch, they got the skull, they found A Most Holy Man in the flesh. 

[annspal]

I am loving how strongly the background message for the boys this season is allowed to be one of encouragement and possibility (hope? faith?). As they loop yet again to replay another version of familiar story beats, I hear them being told things can change and things can be better. I want to notice and soak up tonight's pep talk before it swings back to  bleak and "Boo-hoo, Princess."

That's what's different with the opening up of new universes! The show has long explored the idea of rewriting history - going all the way back to the pilot episode ("Take me home. .... I can never go home.") - as futile.  In season 3's Mystery Spot, the message for Sam was "You can't save your brother." In season 4's In the Beginning, Dean is told, "You have to stop it. ... You couldn't have stopped it." Was it season 5 when "Play your part/role" (DENSITY!) was a relentless drumbeat?

I would bet that ultimate success will depend on the show reaching a final wind down, so hopefully (to me) it is still seasons away. For now I have to root for the Winchesters to remain united and working together to take real control of their own story.  Of course, the trick is to make the decisions that result in a better journal tablet novelization/gospel fanfiction  world.

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

the stupidest shoot out ever

I had flashbacks to the Duck Hunt vibe from early season 4 shooting at the Witnesses at Bobby's house while he did a ritual. :-)

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:01 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I am not sure what I just watched.  A wannabe Bela, a wannabe caper film, a mobster movie? If it weren't for Dean's snark and Sam's mopiness, I wouldn't know it was an episode of SPN.

The very last words from Dean - one of the rare times I felt like it was Jensen on the screen.

All around weird episode.

The best part was Dean's explanation of what he'd do if someone stole Baby. Murder. Torture, then murder.

 

You watched a mediocre riff on the Maltese Falcon.

On 3/8/2018 at 9:07 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Those were some pretty polite and accommodating mobsters. LOL!

It's weird that nobody seemed fussed by all the murdering there at the end. I guess even wanting to sleep with Sam gets a girl killed these days. Heh. But considering all the moralizing over 'thievery', murder doesn't even get a comment.

Oh sorry... it was mediocre Maltese Falcon with a Tarantino Mexican standoff at the end 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

21 hours ago, SueB said:

That was fun.  A nice little film noir ala Supernatural.  First I wondered if the priest was legit, about 10 seconds later I realized .. ah... here's the Holy Man.  I really liked him. And I have no problem with the Maltese Falcon homage.  They named the character's Aster & Greenstreet.  I loved the nod.  

Quibble: Dear Dabb & Singer: The skull of St Peter would not be in an unsecured little monastery in a small village.  

I liked the vibe.  It was a nice change of pace.  Two thumbs up for Dean having no f*cks to give about a mafia Don.  And his conversation about God was a nice nod to their "relationship" challenges.  OTOH, his "I have faith." has me wondering if he simply has faith in the two of them or if the Priest helped him see the good in humanity.  

This week's supernatural event was: A miracle.  The priest's bullet was just a scratch, they got the skull, they found A Most Holy Man in the flesh. 

I liked the character nods to MF myself.  I think the overall writing did not do the source material justice.

And did they really call it Holy Sisters Monastery?

Monastery as in monastic as in monks?  Maybe I imagined it because I have a migraine.

The Holy Sisters moniker bothered me too. That is pretty generic for the name of an order a convent.  

And yes. Saint Peter's skull would be at Saint Peter's Brasilica.

I tbink the Priest nudged Dean to think about doing good, ie. Taking out some of the trash still littering the board, and since he is heading towards one of his reckless priblem solvingframes of mind I tbink thst he will will kill two birds with one stone .. save mom, kill some supernatural baddies by making a deal with Michael.

23 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

There's very little reason to care about anything at this point in the season. And the standard of quality for a regular episode like this has cratered. So here we are. I know if I didn't have to make subtitles for the damn thing I wouldn't have bothered to post a review.

 

Nowadays to get a lot of reactions your best bet is a BuckLeming because it's just that special kind of crap that gets people talking. Maybe that's why they're still on the writing staff ?

Nepotism is why thsy are still on the writing staff. She is martied to Singer.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

The show really needs to just stop with these dreary, leadfooted "crime caper" episodes that are supposedly such sparkling fun and instead are so incredibly tedious. What's really sad is that it occurred to me that you could have made one group of antagonists in this episode into demons and another group into angels and it would have barely changed the story. I don't know if it is Dabb -- or Singer, or whoever -- that is obsessed with crime melodramas about mob bosses and their thugs, but they have really sucked the supernatural out of the show's portrayal of both angels and demons and made them dreary and tedious to watch as well.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0033870/

Ostensibly the Maltese Falcon was the insoiration however the vibe was more

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0077321/

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Here is an episode that hits by bottom 20. 

Dislikes.

• It's becoming obvious Dabb and Singer are trying to prove me wrong that then they can't get lazier.  It's bad enough that they they're just copying and pasting the entire apocalypse but this was just copy and pasted from the Scorpion and The Frog.  Bad guys have something Sam and Dean need, they make a deal to steal something for bad guys, things go sideways. 
• It's obvious Dabb and Singer don't care anymore.  The'yre just going through the motions. 
• I loved Dean's line, "This world isn't perfect, if I'm not perfect saving it so what."  So, of course, they had to go an and completely invalidate it with the Priest's speech about its just an excuse to justify bad behavior.  Of course they had to validate St. Sam and his holier than thou attitude. 
• What was up with Sam's attitude toward Dean in his one?  Why was he up on such a high horse?  It's episodes like this where I question if Sam even likes Dean.  He seemed irritated and annoyed with Dean this entire episode.
• Then suddenly when the priest makes a speech that resonates with Sam, he's suddenly on board with stealing the skull. 
• Does Sam not remember what happened when he joined the British Men of Letters in an attempt to get rid of all monsters?
• Dean suddenly has faith?  Where did that come from?  This is why I don't believe Dean is burying his feelings or hiding anything.  He's too zen.
• In the obligatory BM even Jared and Jensen looked bored.  Like, like they were both thinking- "are we really doing this again?
• Since when doesn't doesn't Dean carry paper clips to pick a lock?
• I guess Sam and Dean killing humans is not longer considered a bad thing.

More of the dumb Dean/ smart Sam trope I dislike that seems standard these days.

There were a couple of things I did like (sadly, I can't list Dean's line anymore.)

• Dean sassing mob bosses.
• What he'd do if someone stole baby.  (Now, I want an episode were Baby is stolen)
• Dean walking into the fire fight with guns blazing.  That was all kids of hot.

I agree with a lot that you said.

I do think has plastered a veneer over his feelings and he will break reckless and suicidal.  I know people Don't see it but I saw this as a part of a slow build to Dean!Michael.

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, annspal said:

I had flashbacks to the Duck Hunt vibe from early season 4 shooting at the Witnesses at Bobby's house while he did a ritual. :-)

Those were ghosts though.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

OH gods I didn't even make that connection. LOL

 

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Four ingredients needed to open the rift and stop Michael from wreaking havoc. Four rings needed to open the cage and stop Lucifer from wreaking havoc.

Lather, rinse, repeat?

They have been deliberately rebooting, reusing, perverting, flipping old tropes to hint that We are getting Apocalypse 2.0 since 12,1.  It has a purposes and it was effective subtext for me.

The four ingredients are to open the rift to save Mary and Jack.  The plan is to get in and get out without attracting Michael's notice.

The four Horsemen rings were to open the cage to throw Lucifer back in and stop the Apocalypse.

The analogy still holds  What catches my eye is that Sam says yes to Lucifer as part of the plan in season 5.  I think Dean will say yes to Michael as part of his plan to open the rift.

For me these similarities are deliberate and provide a way to interpret what may happen.

[companionenvy]

That was the outline of a good episode, but just wound up underscoring for me how lazy this show is getting with characterization. 

I get that part of the DNA of this show involved Sam being book-smart and at least superficially more idealistic and compassionate while Dean was a natural warrior who embraced the coarser, devil-may-care life of the road. But in the first place, one of the pleasures of the early seasons is how often these identities were undercut, and in the second, it has been thirteen years of show time, and far longer for Sam and Dean. They aren't exactly the same guys anymore, and even thirteen years ago they were both trained hunters.  So while I can buy that Sam might still get grossed out by Dean's food or porn choices and Dean might still mock Sam for knowing something he perceives as  nerdy, I don't believe that Sam is going to get hoity-toity over the idea of stealing (from a mobster no less). Not only has Sam canonically been quite comfortable stealing when necessary, even to the extent of teaching Claire how to commit credit card fraud, but I simply can't buy that anyone with the experiences of Sam Winchester is going to make theft a moral line in the sand. I mean, later in the episode, the boys mow down a bunch of people, and that's just all in a day's work. 

As for Dean, he's  been hunting practically his whole life. Basic tools for escaping restraints should be a standard part of his repertoire, and even if it isn't, it makes zero sense to snark at Sam for coming prepared, or for making a joke that relies on a larger idea of Sam as the goody-two-shoes that should have been put to rest a long, long time ago. I'm someone who is highly sympathetic to a lot of Sam's worst mistakes, but you  don't get to do the things he (and Dean, for that matter) does and has done and still get to be mocked for being a straight-arrow. 

I also do not understand why the show thinks it is funny to have Dean stumble over the priest's name or not know the word chicanery (this last wasn't 100 % clear from the episode, but based on the way it was played, I think that was the implication). Dean is not an idiot. He may not take to research as naturally as Sam, but over the years he has accumulated plenty of experience with ancient lore. And while there's nothing wrong with having trouble with a foreign name (I teach in a non-English speaking country, and my students' names are a constant challenge), within the context of the show, it was clearly intended as a "hah-hah, Dean has trouble with an Italian word," and there's just no call for that. 

The notion of the appropriate response to living in an imperfect world was similarly simplistic and not organic to where the boys currently are. First of all, Dean was undoubtedly right to say that there aren't always perfect solutions. Sam and Dean have both done wrong before, but even when they're doing the right thing and saving people, hunting things, it the very least, requires a moral code a lot more nuanced than "Lying is 100 % wrong all the time" and "never kill." Sam, as I've indicated, shouldn't at this point need Dean to tell him that sometimes their life involves doing messy and ambiguous things -- but neither should Dean need a lecture on the imperative to strive for a more perfect world. Not when he has devoted his life to protecting people from evil. And the show certainly shouldn't be validating the priest's morally absolutist position. 

A much better version of this episode would have respected the priest's position without suggesting that he was objectively right. The final scene, rather than reiterating the tired complaint that they're running in circles and not getting anywhere, should have involved Sam and Dean honoring the priest's purity while acknowledging that they didn't have the luxury of being "most holy men."

I will say that the episode was worth it just for Dean's reaction to Sam's hypothetical about the Impala being stolen. That's how you show that Dean and Sam have distinct personalities, tastes, and priorities. It is fine for the boys to poke fun at each other when those differences emerge. But it doesn't have to happen ten times an episode, it shouldn't require making them act in exaggerated ways that make no sense given their experiences, and we should also get scenes where these brothers who have been living and working together for years are on the same page, hunting wise -- and enjoy each other's company. 

One boring, logistical question: Cas doesn't have his wings, does he? So how is he in Syria?

[flyinghigh]

Just finished watching the episode.

I really liked the episode!! just Sam and Dean - on a case - looking for a skull which they don't need. And Dean finds faith. 

missed the monsters though. 

The mob story - hmmm - different but interesting. 

Sam and Dean as brothers - top of their game - loved the snark.

Dean and Baby - predictable but compelling.

The priest - like the character. I am glad he got a win.Sometimes we get episodes with too many side characters and too much happens - unless handled well its a big mess. This episode. IMO, had just the right amount of Sam and Dean with their sassy attitude. Side characters doing their part - that is of supporting Sam and Dean. And I loved the final show down. 

[flyinghigh]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I liked the vibe.  It was a nice change of pace.  Two thumbs up for Dean having no f*cks to give about a mafia Don.  And his conversation about God was a nice nod to their "relationship" challenges.  OTOH, his "I have faith." has me wondering if he simply has faith in the two of them or if the Priest helped him see the good in humanity.  

bold - I liked it too.

As far as faith is concerned I was thinking of the recent episode where Dean tells Sam that he has no faith and that he needs Sam to have faith for both of them. I think it is about faith in general  - in humanity - it is never perfect. But we still need to strive to make it better - at our own pace. I think that s what priest meant and that is what's Dean's take on it - IMO

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I reallly liked the actor who played the Priest. I really want him to show up again.

His name is Massi Furian.

Liked him too. Not that he was very interesting - just liked the character. And yes I do hope we see him again

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Four ingredients needed to open the rift and stop Michael from wreaking havoc. Four rings needed to open the cage and stop Lucifer from wreaking havoc.

Lather, rinse, repeat?

oh - Didn't realize. 

I am so tired of this angel demon story thingie. I think that is why I liked the episode so much - No angel and no demon.

[gonzosgirrl]

This is probably b v j worthy, but since it was underscored so heavily in this episode I'm putting it here. Despite his occasional speechifying  (usually out of guilt or when he wants his way with something), I don't thing Sam likes his brother at all. I thought the little "he feels it' in the preview clip was cute and organic. Then I saw that this was yet again a running theme throughout the episode, Sam sneering, mocking, heaving his heavy sighs over his oaf of a brother. Yes, both of them tease the other, but there is generally a level of pride beneath Dean's words, while Sam mostly seems embarrassed by Dean, at best. I don't like it.  

IMO there's a distinct difference between being mocked for being smart and/or nerdy, and being mocked for being dumb/uncouth. Because at the end of the day, you're still saying one is smart and one is dumb. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

While I liked the Priest character, the episode validating his outlook was ridiculously simplistic. Dean`s stance was self-aware and pretty much correct. They have never been perfect and they can`t afford to be so now. 

Sam suddenly being all dainty and pearl-clutching about stealing and then doing a 180 once he likes what the Priest is telling him? Annoyingly predictable. And not very endearing. Of course he spent the entire episode being all superior and disdain-ful of his stupid uncouth brother. Fantastic. My very least flavour of the character. 

Of course we got some dumb!Dean digs thrown in. 

At least the "holy man" stayed a random dude and wasn`t Sam so thank you for small favours. 

The Mafia shenanigans were just stupid to me. 

All in all, it was a script I kinda expected from Dabb and Singer. They make their views on the brothers pretty clear and in the process make themselves look like assholes.   

Quote

IMO there's a distinct difference between being mocked for being smart and/or nerdy, and being mocked for being dumb/uncouth. Because at the end of the day, you're still saying one is smart and one is dumb. 

Exactly.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I didn't like the priest (unknowingly, true) countering Dean's comment about it not being a perfect world.  For a priest, bettering the world may be the primary goal but those who are charged with actually saving it may not have the luxury of being saintly in all they do.  The priest really doesn't know what, and who, is out there or what they're really like.

Yes, I think maybe what annoyed me most about the episode was not the boring plot, or even these writers' lazy parodies of who Dean and Sam are as characters, in place of the three-dimensional people we have watched them develop into over the years. It was actually the priest being presented as the "most holy man" and the voice of wisdom for the brothers.

Sure, he is a nice guy, and he had done a lot of charity work throughout his life. But there was no indication that he had ever faced down any true evil in the world, or ever had to make any agonizing choices when trying to do the right thing, or ever had to suffer in any way for what he believed before now. Has he ever had to sacrifice someone he loved for the greater good, or confronted God to His face and asked him why he did nothing about all the pain in the world? He was given this supposedly important mission of getting back the skull, but was ready to give up when things didn't go according to plan. Good thing it was just an old skull and not someone's life at stake.

Yet this man was giving Dean and Sam a little lecture about not giving enough effort to try to make the world a better place,  because of their "sins" and their "failings" and their "laziness"? Sure, he didn't know anything about them, and he was charmingly self-deprecating about his little sermon ("I'm sorry, I know I talk too much.") It was still bizarre the way that they acted as if he was talking about something they had never considered before.

This episode was such a shallow, facile portrayal of faith and holiness. I definitely did not want either Dean or Sam to qualify as the "most holy", but why not dig a little deeper, even in what was supposed to be a "light" episode? Making the object of their quest turn out to be this nice, naive priest, his holiness rubber-stamped on him by the Pope himself, was just about the most uninteresting story choice they could have made. Just think how interesting it would have been if the holy man had turned out to be someone you never would have expected, someone whose holiness was not apparent to the world, someone who appeared totally unimportant or off-putting in some way but still was making the world a better place. Go in a direction I didn't expect, Supernatural writers -- at least put a little effort into it.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Bergamot

[companionenvy]

7 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

even these writers' lazy parodies of who Dean and Sam are as characters, in place of the three-dimensional people we have watched them develop into over the years.

Really nicely said. It is also especially egregious given that this is a Dabb/Singer episode. My working theory on why the brothers are sometimes caricatured had been that it was an effect of having a lot of new writers who hadn't even watched the entire series, and thus fell back on the Cliff's Notes version of who the Winchesters were. Dabb and Singer don't have that excuse, so it is just pure laziness. 

 

8 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

This episode was such a shallow, facile portrayal of faith and holiness. I definitely did not want either Dean or Sam to qualify as the "most holy", but why not dig a little deeper, even in what was supposed to be a "light" episode? Making the object of their quest turn out to be this nice, naive priest, his holiness rubber-stamped on him by the Pope himself, was just about the most uninteresting story choice they could have made. Just think how interesting it would have been if the holy man had turned out to be someone you never would have expected, someone whose holiness was not apparent to the world, someone who appeared totally unimportant but still was making the world a better place. Go in a direction I didn't expect, Supernatural writers -- at least put a little effort into it.

I agree with this as well - your version would have been much more interesting. I also want to second Mystery Guest's point above about conversations on faith and holiness not working terribly well now that we have a canonical and thoroughly de-mystified God. Dean grappling with faith after an encounter with a member of the clergy worked in Houses of the Holy, but it really doesn't now. I don't actually think the problem was bringing Guck onto the show -- I adored his initial meeting with the Winchesters in his non-Chuck persona -- but in making him so unimpressive and petty. 

The struggle with belief is fundamental to human experience. A show can still play with this in a world in which characters have clear proof of a deity, but that requires making sure your deity retains some gravitas and mystery, which Guck lacks at this point.