S13.E15: A Most Holy Man

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Quibble: Dear Dabb & Singer: The skull of St Peter would not be in an unsecured little monastery in a small village.  

I'm sure there are several "skulls of Saint Peter" all over the place.  

[Bobcatkitten]

I absolutely loved it. They nailed the noir motif with great music, use of shadows and film techniques. I liked the tone of the episode. It was a standalone but yet fit into the arc of needing to get the four things and didn't take me completely out of the overall season. Sam bitching about stealing was a bit odd but I can get past it for all the other great stuff:

-Sam and Dean handcuffed to a radiator. I'll take it all day.

-Sam and Dean interacting! In the whole episode!

-Snarky Dean all over the place.

-Caring Dean checking for Sammy's pulse and being worried about Sam's concussions. 

-Discussion of faith and good works. 

-Mobsters in the place of monsters for one episode. 

-Baby!

-Dean with the double-barrel during the gunfight.

-Sam wondering if they ever win, basically. 

-Sam flashing the dimples!!!

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I think maybe what annoyed me most about the episode was not the boring plot, or even these writers' lazy parodies of who Dean and Sam are as characters, in place of the three-dimensional people we have watched them develop into over the years. It was actually the priest being presented as the "most holy man" and the voice of wisdom for the brothers.

Sure, he is a nice guy, and he had done a lot of charity work throughout his life. But there was no indication that he had ever faced down any true evil in the world, or ever had to make any agonizing choices when trying to do the right thing, or ever had to suffer in any way for what he believed before now. Has he ever had to sacrifice someone he loved for the greater good, or confronted God to His face and asked him why he did nothing about all the pain in the world? He was given this supposedly important mission of getting back the skull, but was ready to give up when things didn't go according to plan. Good thing it was just an old skull and not someone's life at stake.

Yet this man was giving Dean and Sam a little lecture about not giving enough effort to try to make the world a better place,  because of their "sins" and their "failings" and their "laziness"? Sure, he didn't know anything about them, and he was charmingly self-deprecating about his little sermon ("I'm sorry, I know I talk too much.") It was still bizarre the way that they acted as if he was talking about something they had never considered before.

This episode was such a shallow, facile portrayal of faith and holiness. I definitely did not want either Dean or Sam to qualify as the "most holy", but why not dig a little deeper, even in what was supposed to be a "light" episode? Making the object of their quest turn out to be this nice, naive priest, his holiness rubber-stamped on him by the Pope himself, was just about the most uninteresting story choice they could have made. Just think how interesting it would have been if the holy man had turned out to be someone you never would have expected, someone whose holiness was not apparent to the world, someone who appeared totally unimportant or off-putting in some way but still was making the world a better place. Go in a direction I didn't expect, Supernatural writers -- at least put a little effort into it.

The "Most Holy Man" was pretty quick to bash Sam's head in when needs must, too. #hypocrite 

[DittyDotDot]

I think they should refrigerate that little bottle of blood before it congeals... .

Well that was entirely unexpected. I can't say it was bad exactly--they did good with the noir look and all (kudos to Amanda Tapping on the direction), but lacked a certain core Supernatural feel to it somehow. It was strangely appealing at times, but there really was no mystery and the episode never built into anything. It just meandered from one not-so-bad guy to the next and then the bad guys got dead. 

Anyway, I think this could've been a stellar episode with just a bit more care and feeding. I don't think it was a bad idea, just not a fully realized one.

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know why Sam was so outraged that they should be thieves or whatever. They did the same thing just a few epis ago in Scorpion and the Frog. And they also did it (with complete innocents, which was not the case here) in Meet the New Boss.

[...]

That was conveniently convenient that the priest was named a most holy man by the pope. It makes me wonder how these spells can tell different blood types apart. Like how is a virgin's blood different, and a most holy man's and a MOL legacy. Whatever

First, yeah, Sam's attitude was completely nonsensical. From day one, they've been con men who work around the rules to get the job done. What was different about this one? They were stealing from the mob? Please!

And second, of course, I knew he would be "the most holy man" from the moment they found him on the ground, but I think they could've--and should've--figured that out by themselves considering his actions. It was kinda dumb that they needed him to literally have the title. Is there no subtlety left anymore?

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And second, of course, I knew he would be "the most holy man" from the moment they found him on the ground, but I think they could've--and should've--figured that out by themselves considering his actions. It was kinda dumb that they needed him to literally have the title. Is there no subtlety left anymore?

I feel like a moron.  Maybe my mind was wandering.  Maybe I was just living int he moment.  Maybe it's because I'm not catholic.  But, I never gave one though to the priest being the most holy man.  So, I can't really fault SAm and DEan for not doing so.  

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I feel like a moron.  Maybe my mind was wandering.  Maybe I was just living int he moment.  Maybe it's because I'm not catholic.  But, I never gave one though to the priest being the most holy man.  So, I can't really fault SAm and DEan for not doing so.  

I wouldn't say I fault Sam and Dean for not considering the priest--but he was a little too good and too faithful that I find a bit curious neither considered it--I fault the writing. I think the scene would've played out better if Sam started talking about how he looked the priest up and felt like he was someone doing good things and then Dean's line of needing one last thing from him--cut to Dean holding the little jar of blood in the bunker. I think requiring a literal title from the Pope was just a bit too...well, literal, for my taste and made the scene a bit too long and tedious with all the unnecessary yammering. 

[Lady Calypso]

37 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And second, of course, I knew he would be "the most holy man" from the moment they found him on the ground, but I think they could've--and should've--figured that out by themselves considering his actions. It was kinda dumb that they needed him to literally have the title. Is there no subtlety left anymore?

I personally pretty much called it from the scene when he bonked Sam over the head, but I was confirmed with him getting shot and getting lucky. I was more annoyed that it never crossed Sam or Dean's minds, but then again, we're watching a TV show and they're characters. They don't know that the episode title is. So in the end, can I really blame them for not figuring it out right away?

I thought the episode was just ok. I like Amanda Tapping's directing style, but the episode wasn't nearly as interesting as I hoped it would be. I really don't think I have all that much to say. Sam's characterization was really weird this episode. I get they're going for a depression arc, but I don't think they're doing a good job. 

It was nice to see Sam and Dean work a case together, even if I had zero interest in it.

[Ria]

What a mess of an episode this was. A bunch of characters I overwhelmingly have no reason to care about (other than Sam and Dean) all chasing after a Mcguffin. 

The first few seconds showed promise. When the thief stole the skull from the monastery I briefly had a Raiders of the Lost Ark flashback. But it was too much to hope nuns would have poisonous darts shooting out of the walls or a giant boulder crashing down. :) 

But it all went downhill from there. 

[Boopsahoy]

I guess its my UO that I liked the episode. Loved the call out to Maltese falcon and noir films. I loved that the episode had just Sam and Dean. No side characters-just the brothers. And to be shallow, Dean looked more gorgeous than ever this episode! HOW?

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

One boring, logistical question: Cas doesn't have his wings, does he? So how is he in Syria?

Oh my gods. I didn't even consider how he managed that LOL. I was more annoyed with the "joke" about dodging bullets

[Pondlass1]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam suddenly being all dainty and pearl-clutching about stealing

Honestly this ^ made me laugh out loud.  I enjoyed the episode for some damn reason.  I like a caper movie with everyone double crossing everyone else (maybe it's the Brit in me).  But Sam is getting irritating with this high horse nonsense.  It's actually making him really unlikeable.  Judge not lest ye be judged... and all that, Sam.

Best bit was Dean's announcement that he'd torture and then murder anyone who stole Baby. Jensen was marvellous and he carried it through with expressions and everything.  I think Dean loves Baby maybe a wee bit more than he loves his brother?  Baby never judges.

The Priest being the Holy Man who could provide the blood was obvious from the minute he announced who he was and waxed all profound and wise all over the place.  There were even tweets.  It was pretty obvious.  But subtlety is rarely the thing anymore - in almost any hour long TV series episode. 

I hate spring hiatuses.  It all has be spaced out for May Sweeps.  Expect ratings to dip.

[Pondlass1]

20 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Dean looked more gorgeous than ever this episode! HOW?

Jensen looks good in any lighting, but the lighting and atmosphere in this episode was great - I thought anyway, but what do I know?  Lots of different sets, both interior and exterior shots.  The episode had a richness about it, like they'd spent some of the budget.  (Maybe should've forked out for some decent writers, but still ...).

The comment about their cheap outfits seemed so out of place considering the guy was sat with donut dust all over himself and his silly clothing.

They looked like GQ models!!  I'd love an episode of them shopping for FBI outfits.

[catrox14]

I don't understand why this episode exists in this season when there are SO MANY other things that need to be covered.

Why didn't they make the damn mobsters at least a faction of monsters. Whilst Bloodlines was awful at least the monster mobsters were monsters.  I liked the Benders in s1 because they were in contrast to the monsters of s1 and showing how awful they were. And the Benders are way more terrifying than mobsters.

Why not make the mobsters into Styne like characters.  Why not tie it to the underground monster auction in Breakdown ? Or something ANYTHING but this?  Sure it got the Blood of a Most Holy Man, but the route to get there was poor. 

Oh and Sam and Dean killed humans and neither were amped up on Mark of Cain nor Soulless.  I mean I don't care since it was mobsters who were going to kill them, but isn't it a thing in this show that the boys killing humans is verboten and frowned upon?

As to Dean having faith at the end...well, Dean said back in s1 that he doesn't pray but he would pray for Leila and he said this season that he wanted Sam to keep the faith. Jensen was really weird in that closing scene and I felt like he wasn't "Dean" at all. I don't know that he was Jensen, but he sure seemed to not be Dean to me. Not just the final like of "I have faith", but throughout the final scene. It was weird.  

I agree with others that Dean being undermined by the Priest about sometimes doing bad to do good is unnecessary. But then I did predict that Dean saying that line would end up with him being proven wrong to feel that way and VOILE ! 

Sam being "dainty and pearl clutching" tm Aeryn13, about stealing and Dean being dumb in the episode really took me out of it and I legit thought, okay...is it going to be revealed that Sam and Dean are doppelganger versions here? I've wondered if ever since they were in the Bad Place if something didn't happen to them.

I don't get what they are doing with Sam at all here.  He doesn't make sense anymore.

Edited March 9, 2018 by catrox14

[Dobian]

This should have been a fun comedy kind of episode but I thought it was just meh.  It kind of reminded me of an old episode of Monk, with quirky comic villains, but it just didn't quite get there for me.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

or not know the word chicanery (this last wasn't 100 % clear from the episode, but based on the way it was played, I think that was the implication).

One boring, logistical question: Cas doesn't have his wings, does he? So how is he in Syria?

I never got the impression that Dean didn't know the word chicanery.  I think he just found it amusing that the guy used such a high-falutin word, when he's really just a criminal. That was my take anyway.

Can angels still become invisible?  I see no reason why not.  In which case, Cas could board a plane without a passport or ticket.

[Pondlass1]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

don't understand why this episode exists in this season when there are SO MANY other things that need to be covered.

It's going to be a mad rush at the end... unless it just all carries over to season 14?

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh and Sam and Dean killed humans and neither were amped up on Mark of Cain nor Soulless.  I mean I don't care since it was mobsters who were going to kill them, but isn't it a thing in this show that the boys killing humans is verboten and frowned upon?

I think once humans start shooting at them, all bets are off.  They only killed humans in that last shootout, right?  Dean only knocked out the guards outside.  Sam didn't start shooting until that one guy killed Margaret Astor, and then the general shootout started.  I really have no problem with that.  Self-defense at that point.

[bethy]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The scene with the priest and Dean in the car discussing God was actually a bit depressing to me.  And I'm not the least bit religious.  But it's one of the main reasons I never wanted God to make an appearance on this show.  They've pulled back the curtain on absolutely everything, and there's no mystery left, or hope, for that matter.  I really wish they'd never done that.

I agree with this a lot in terms of wishing they’d never had God make an appearance and for this reason. I actually am pretty religious and I was on board with what was being said until I was like, “Oh yeah, in this universe God is Chuck (ugh) and Dean knows that, so everything hopeful said here is crap.” 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think once humans start shooting at them, all bets are off.  They only killed humans in that last shootout, right?  Dean only knocked out the guards outside.  Sam didn't start shooting until that one guy killed Margaret Astor, and then the general shootout started.  I really have no problem with that.  Self-defense at that point.

I was just rolling my eyes at that whole thing so I might have gotten the order of events wrong. I thought Margaret was killed because she double crossed Chicanery Guy.  And Sam wasn't actually under threat of death at that point because Chicanery Guy was dealing with Sam not Margaret. It seemed to me if Sam would have accepted the deal, he wouldn't have been shot. Once Sam shot at Chicanery Guy's minion that's when the shootout started, didnt it?

As an aside, Dean exposing himself in a ridiculous "cool" action stunt where he's firing both guns that way was ABSURD for this show and totally out of place. I mean it was cool and will look good on Jensen's action reel for further projects but it was STOOPID in this episode. 

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

"cool" action stunt where he's firing both guns

With this current uprising against guns - I don't think we'll ever see a scene like this again especially when it's humans who are the antagonists. 

[Bergamot]

54 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Best bit was Dean's announcement that he'd torture and then murder anyone who stole Baby. Jensen was marvellous and he carried it through with expressions and everything. 

I liked that part too – and the way he went into a little trance thinking about it; it made me laugh! I also loved that frighteningly ice-cold look that he gave the thug before he handed over his keys to him. Fortunately for the thug, the man blurted out a compliment to Baby – probably the only thing that saved him!

I also liked Dean being so unimpressed and unintimidated by the mob boss. It was kind of a breath of fresh air in the episode to see Dean acting like someone who has actually had all the experiences we have seen him have. (What was Sam being so nervous about?)  A man like Dean who has faced down and fought and killed angels and demons and monsters, and survived both hell and purgatory, is not going to be scared by a thug or two threatening him with a gun. The mob guys thought they were tough, but they were totally out of their league. (I thought at first that they were too dumb to see this plain truth, but then I got the impression that they might have begun to dimly realize it.)

[Bobcatkitten]

I didn't mind the killing since they didn't start the shooting and it was clearly everyone for themselves. I wouldn't have waited to see if the mobster and the illegal arts dealer would just let me go. Especially as a witness to a murder. 

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was just rolling my eyes at that whole thing so I might have gotten the order of events wrong. I thought Margaret was killed because she double crossed Chicanery Guy.  And Sam wasn't actually under threat of death at that point because Chicanery Guy was dealing with Sam not Margaret. It seemed to me if Sam would have accepted the deal, he wouldn't have been shot. Once Sam shot at Chicanery Guy's minion that's when the shootout started, didnt it?

As an aside, Dean exposing himself in a ridiculous "cool" action stunt where he's firing both guns that way was ABSURD for this show and totally out of place. I mean it was cool and will look good on Jensen's action reel for further projects but it was STOOPID in this episode. 

I can't say that I memorized the scene, but I thought after her minion shot her, all the guns came out and it became a free-for-all.  If not, then, maybe Sam just wanted to his avenge his new fan.

[annspal]

I am with those who thought Sam wasn't objecting to the stealing but to the likelihood of getting involved in a feud with mobsters. If they got away with the theft, it was still certain to put them on another radar and lead to retaliations. (And, for all we know, the mobster has a son....)  Sam and Dean wouldn't be worried about handling these guys, but was it necessary to set yourself up for the distraction?

I bet Sam and Dean think the way Walking Dead brought about their recent big loss is a downright waste.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think Sam did object to the stealing. And it was just a bad flub by the writers. I mean a few episodes ago they stole an artifact for a demon. 

[bozodegama]

My God, that episode was so mediocre.  The only good thing about it was that Sam and Dean were the main characters.  That was about it.  Not really much Supernatural about it.  The filming and the music was cool but you really have to stretch to find anything redeemable.  The writing this season has been abysmal, I guess they've run out of ideas.  At this point, and I can't believe i'm saying this, I actually hope they end the show the next season if they can't write the show any better.  

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I personally pretty much called it from the scene when he bonked Sam over the head, but I was confirmed with him getting shot and getting lucky.

My question is:  if Chuck is off partying with Amara, all the archangels are either dead or MIA, and all the angels are too busy reorganizing/fighting with each other, who was it who was watching (and saving) the priest?  Isn't it more likely that it was just random chance than a result of his faith?

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, annspal said:

I am with those who thought Sam wasn't objecting to the stealing but to the likelihood of getting involved in a feud with mobsters. If they got away with the theft, it was still certain to put them on another radar and lead to retaliations. (And, for all we know, the mobster has a son....)  Sam and Dean wouldn't be worried about handling these guys, but was it necessary to set yourself up for the distraction?

 

I think if they managed to avoid the Leviathan, mobsters are nothing to worry about.  I know they had to take some unhappy measures (like hiding Baby), but other than a few minor changes, they didn't hide very much.  And there were a lot more monsters than mobsters, with more power.  

I was more concerned about Sam going into the crime-scene room and tearing it apart with his bare hands.  I missed the first 10 minutes or so, so were the forensic people already done there?  Because otherwise, both boys left fingerprints everywhere, there and in the battle scene, and surely someone will start wondering why the fingerprints of someone who supposedly died--what, 6 years ago, according to the mobster?--suddenly showed up at a murder scene.  I'd be more worried about getting back on the FBI's radar than the mob's.  

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I can't say that I memorized the scene, but I thought after her minion shot her, all the guns came out and it became a free-for-all.  If not, then, maybe Sam just wanted to his avenge his new fan.

I hope it was just a free for all and not Sam avenging someone who was going to turn on him anyway. Although Sam does have that habit.

I still can't with Sam whining about theft and about the never ending monsters. Remember when Dean had the Mark, Sam, when you accepted this was your life and you were okay with it?  And in s11 when it was save everybody but now you are weary and only now realize monsters are always going to be there? Why are they treading this ground against  unless it's setting g up some other Trials thing in s8?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think once humans start shooting at them, all bets are off.  They only killed humans in that last shootout, right?  Dean only knocked out the guards outside.  Sam didn't start shooting until that one guy killed Margaret Astor, and then the general shootout started.  I really have no problem with that.  Self-defense at that point.

I don't have a problem with it either, but it's patently laughable that Sam gets all dainty and pearl-clutching -tm Aeyrn - over stealing from mobsters, but doesn't bat an eyelash over shooting them. Such terrible writing, and of all the writers left on staff, DABB should know the characters better than this. Honestly, between the mopey, OOC writing and Jared's delivery of Sam's superiority complex, they are making the character unlikeable.

32 minutes ago, annspal said:

I am with those who thought Sam wasn't objecting to the stealing but to the likelihood of getting involved in a feud with mobsters. If they got away with the theft, it was still certain to put them on another radar and lead to retaliations. (And, for all we know, the mobster has a son....)  Sam and Dean wouldn't be worried about handling these guys, but was it necessary to set yourself up for the distraction?

I bet Sam and Dean think the way Walking Dead brought about their recent big loss is a downright waste.

Naw, it was pretty clear he was objecting to stealing.

[Pondlass1]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

unless it's setting g up some other Trials thing in s8?

You give the writers more credit than they're due.  It's just throw away stuff that means nothing,  Next week it could be Dean clutching at pearls over something.

It's all shock and awe, with no depth or consequence any more.  Dabb & Co don't even know Sam or Dean.  

[annspal]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

29 minutes ago, annspal said:

I am with those who thought Sam wasn't objecting to the stealing but to the likelihood of getting involved in a feud with mobsters. If they got away with the theft, it was still certain to put them on another radar and lead to retaliations. (And, for all we know, the mobster has a son....)  Sam and Dean wouldn't be worried about handling these guys, but was it necessary to set yourself up for the distraction?

I think if they managed to avoid the Leviathan, mobsters are nothing to worry about.  I know they had to take some unhappy measures (like hiding Baby), but other than a few minor changes, they didn't hide very much.  And there were a lot more monsters than mobsters, with more power.  

Glad we agree!  

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh and Sam and Dean killed humans

This appears to be a morality that Dabb doesn't think is all that important.  It bothered me last season too.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, annspal said:

Glad we agree!  

:)  I was referring more to the trouble avoiding them (as you put it, "the distraction") than actually having to deal with them.  We both know "just humans" wouldn't be any problem for the boys, but if they managed to avoid the multitude of Leviathan (and even the FBI) for all that time without making any major changes to their routines, then I can't imagine them being worried about mobsters from one family being after them.  :)  

[Mulva]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This appears to be a morality that Dabb doesn't think is all that important.  It bothered me last season too.

Yeah, stealing from mobsters is wrong, but blowing away people is okay.

About halfway through the episode, it occurred to me that they could have just tried to steal the blood directly from Greenstreet instead of the mobsters.

[SueB]

38 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My question is:  if Chuck is off partying with Amara, all the archangels are either dead or MIA, and all the angels are too busy reorganizing/fighting with each other, who was it who was watching (and saving) the priest?  Isn't it more likely that it was just random chance than a result of his faith?

In the SPN Universe, God is pretty much all-powerful, omnipotent. If he can create multiverses and track what's going on in each, he can keep track of what's happening on our Earth while hanging with Amara.  She herself said they were going to reconnect, not become 100% each other's existance.  

So, Dean says Chuck's flown the coop, but that doesn't mean he's not aware.  He's just generally leaving it alone.  

But seriously, let's add it up: for the boys to find a priest who was given the title by the Pope of "A Most Holy Man", AND the guy got shot in the Tarantino-class gun fight and it was just a graze?  I can see how that could be seen as a miracle.  Certainly the priest thought it was one that he was alive.  

The issue IS one of faith and trust.  I do NOT know if Dean is going in this direction, but if he is, that's a major sea-state change for him.  To recognize that little miracles happen all the time.  I don't know if he attributes the little miracle to a direct Chuck intervention or just that "things work out" for he and Sam from time to time and he has faith that it will again.  

TW for those with strong personal antheist beliefs or non-monotheistic religion:
- In the SPN universe, Dean has expected Chuck to be an Old Testament kinda God.  Part the Red Sea, smite evil for the sake of his people, etc...  Dean blames Chuck for letting evil continue to run rampant in the universe.  The show definitely LEANS towards at least the "lore" of the Abrahmic religions.  And those religions all share the "invovled monotheistic God" history. 
- What Chuck tried to say to Dean is that he thinks letting Free Will sort out the people is the best way to help them to stand on their own two feet, even if it means evil gets the upper hand in many instances.  Dean (in S11) called bullshit and said it was an excuse.
- Going ALL the way back to "Faith"..

Quote

Layla: You wanna hear something weird? I'm okay. Really. I guess if you're gonna have faith... you can't just have it when the miracles happen. You have to have it when they don't.

- IF this year is about faith, then Dean is going to do what Dean does.  If Sammy is struggling in an area, Dean's gonna pick up the slack til Sam is okay.  At the start of the year, Sam's 'faith' (in them, in good, in the belief Mary could still be a live) kept them moving forward.  Dean's starting to get glimpses of it.  And even if he's just having faith that "good things DO happen" (hey! S4 Ep 1), that's (as Layla would say) a miracle right there.
Bottom Line: Dean's 'faith' appears (at least to me) to be that good things DO happen.  And that's a big change IMO.  

So... back to your question in bold: On this show, in THIS SPN universe, I think it was more than random chance that they found a man labeled by others as "A Most Holy Man" who fit the description with his attitude. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

On another note, it always amuses me when so-called religious people talk about "God" to Dean or Sam. If they only knew who they were really worshipping...

I wonder if Chuck and/or Amara will make another appearance before it's all over.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, annspal said:

I am with those who thought Sam wasn't objecting to the stealing but to the likelihood of getting involved in a feud with mobsters. If they got away with the theft, it was still certain to put them on another radar and lead to retaliations. (And, for all we know, the mobster has a son....)  Sam and Dean wouldn't be worried about handling these guys, but was it necessary to set yourself up for the distraction?

I bet Sam and Dean think the way Walking Dead brought about their recent big loss is a downright waste.

The writing made it quite clear, Sam was opposed to the stealing. He literally said "So this is what we've come to? Thieves?"

He didn't say anything about who they were stealing from or who they would be involved with.

Quote

So this is what we've come to? Thieves?

 

Hey, you want the blood, right? Well Besides, the thing's already stolen.

[ Scoffs ] Really? That's your rationale?

Well, hey, I'm not perfect.
And by the way, neither are you, okay? Oh, so, what? Now you're above a little, uh, chicanery? [ Exhales sharply ] Look, this isn't a perfect world we're trying to save, okay.
And if I'm not perfect trying to save it, then so be it.
Come on. You with me or not?

Edited March 9, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My question is:  if Chuck is off partying with Amara, all the archangels are either dead or MIA, and all the angels are too busy reorganizing/fighting with each other, who was it who was watching (and saving) the priest?  Isn't it more likely that it was just random chance than a result of his faith?

Isn't that what faith is all about though? I mean, yes, I would say it was just random chance, but I'm a heathen who has no faith. 

Just now, Mulva said:

About halfway through the episode, it occurred to me that they could have just tried to steal the blood directly from Greenstreet instead of the mobsters.

Oh, I wondered why they didn't think of that the moment Sam got all antsy about being hired thieves--seemed like if you were going to steal, might as well steal the item you actually need rather than something you don't. But, I'm weird that way.  I guess since Greenstreet didn't have the blood, it was all moot in the end anyway, though.

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think if they managed to avoid the Leviathan, mobsters are nothing to worry about.  I know they had to take some unhappy measures (like hiding Baby), but other than a few minor changes, they didn't hide very much.  And there were a lot more monsters than mobsters, with more power.  

Yeah, I'm not sure why Sam or Dean would be particularly scared of the mob after they've went up against angels, demons, the Devil himself, Leviathans and God's angry little sister...the friendliest mob guys ever really don't seem like much of anything to me. Dabb seems to have a hard time getting the stakes high enough to build the tension. It was the same thing with First Blood last season. 

[belbar]

49 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

My God, that episode was so mediocre.  The only good thing about it was that Sam and Dean were the main characters.  That was about it.  Not really much Supernatural about it.  The filming and the music was cool but you really have to stretch to find anything redeemable.  The writing this season has been abysmal, I guess they've run out of ideas.

This so much

[SueB]

Mediocre? Ridiculous Or...   (it's a lime under water... it's sublime).  

 

I'll show myself out now....

Edited March 9, 2018 by SueB

[annspal]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I can't imagine them being worried about mobsters from one family being after them.  :) 

I am possibly being too influenced by recent events on Walking Dead. My problem is with NOT considering the consequences of inviting bites bullets that can still hit you in the brainpan. (See you later, Bobby). The slightest underestimation of a situation or lack of attention can be (used to be?) deadly.  When I rewatch, I will focus on this episode's message of a bite bullet to the gut amounting to no more than a scratch when there's faith. 

[catrox14]

But bullets do graze people in real life. so just because the priest happened to be preying at the time it doesn't mean he was protected at all.

I watch TWD and I have no idea what it has to do with this episode? They aren't the same situations at all.

[SueB]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But bullets do graze people in real life. so just because the priest happened to be preying at the time it doesn't mean he was protected at all.

I watch TWD and I have no idea what it has to do with this episode? They aren't the same situations at all.

Of course it’s a normal everyday thing.  But in context of the episode, it seems to me it adds up to something ... supernatural.  

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On another note, it always amuses me when so-called religious people talk about "God" to Dean or Sam. If they only knew who they were really worshipping...

I wonder if Chuck and/or Amara will make another appearance before it's all over.

And that's one of the million reasons I wish they had not brought God on the canvas.  

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Of course it’s a normal everyday thing.  But in context of the episode, it seems to me it adds up to something ... supernatural.  

I would in a normal circumstance.  Even in real life, I would.  Except that it is canon that God has left the canvas and isn't "interfering" anymore.

[sarthaz]

Dafuq was that?*

* If they're not going to put any effort into writing the episodes, I'm not going to put any effort into analyzing them.

[annspal]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The writing made it quite clear, Sam was opposed to the stealing. He literally said "So this is what we've come to? Thieves?"

He didn't say anything about who they were stealing from or who they would be involved with.

That's all Sam said. The rest is Dean talking.  No word from Sam about "Why not?" or "What other plan have you got?" because Dean didn't ask.

So I've come up with something that works for me about why Sam objected. For me, it's given that they 1) aren't worried about being thieves and 2) aren't afraid of facing down a couple of human mobsters.   

No, it isn't in the text. (Is that a requirement? I've been doing this wrong!) Maybe Sam wasn't thinking long term implications. Maybe it was just a moment of recognition that thievery isn't his first choice and he wondered if Dean recognized it too?

Walking Dead Spoiler:

Spoiler

Carl could (and did) handle multiple encounters with walkers and should have died many times over the years. Now? In the middle of bigger concerns and "all out war" -- to be pretty relaxed and taken out by an avoidable bite? That is just a waste. Intended or not, the message I took was to reinforce the need for being on guard at all times. 

(I can't tell if I am doing the spoiler correctly. I'll come back in and edit if it isn't hidden.)

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

My question is:  if Chuck is off partying with Amara, all the archangels are either dead or MIA, and all the angels are too busy reorganizing/fighting with each other, who was it who was watching (and saving) the priest?

This is a very good point. And as Mystery Guest said above, they have already pulled back the curtain on everything.

For me, it's not whether someone else (like maybe the priest himself) could still believe that the priest was saved by a miracle. The big question is why in the world would Dean (or Sam) -- knowing what they know -- have faith in a benevolent God answering anyone's prayers.

When Dean said hesitantly at the end of "Houses of the Holy" that he thought that perhaps he had seen God's will in action, for me it was a meaningful and intriguing moment for the character. However, Dean saying at the end of this episode that he "has faith" fell flat for me. Faith in what? Or who? And why? For me it was a meaningless line of dialog, more of a gimmick than a significant moment for the character. Significant moments of characterization cannot be bought that cheaply.  If the writers want me to buy that Dean is experiencing something or feeling something in regard to "having faith", they are going to have to work a lot harder than they have been.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it's the brotherhood/TFW that Dean has faith in. The priest's lecture revolved around doing small good deeds, doing what one can, and the world will be a better place (Kumbaya, m'lord). Dean has (almost) always been the one with faith in their ragtag family, sometimes he just needs a little reminder. And with the Writing 101 that Dabb & Co. seem to ascribe to these days, as Sam's faith in good/the world/them diminishes, so grows Dean's.

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

This is a very good point. And as Mystery Guest said above, they have already pulled back the curtain on everything.

For me, it's not whether someone else (like maybe the priest himself) could still believe that the priest was saved by a miracle. The big question is why in the world would Dean (or Sam) -- knowing what they know -- have faith in a benevolent God answering anyone's prayers.

When Dean said hesitantly at the end of "Houses of the Holy" that he thought that perhaps he had seen God's will in action, for me it was a meaningful and intriguing moment for the character. However, Dean saying at the end of this episode that he "has faith" fell flat for me. Faith in what? Or who? And why? For me it was a meaningless line of dialog, more of a gimmick than a significant moment for the character. Significant moments of characterization cannot be bought that cheaply.  If the writers want me to buy that Dean is experiencing something or feeling something in regard to "having faith", they are going to have to work a lot harder than they have been.

I think Fr Lucca gave the thesis of the episode from Fr Lucca's perspective:

Quote

Fr Lucca: I didn’t mean that God would reach down and protect us. Of course that’s not going to happen. But I believe that all good things are God’s things. And what your brother’s doing, it’s a good thing.

And he also said: 

Quote

Guys, the world will never be perfect but if good men do good things, it can be better. Every day can get better.

Which is part of the TFW creed.  So, that's what Dean has faith in (IMO).

But taken collectively, this entire episode was an episode about faith (not necessarily in God) and it was disguised by a fun little film-noir.  It's a bit on the nose.  The episode itself was kinda the McGuffin, with the skull of St Peter being the McGuffin within the McGuffin.  
 

Edited March 9, 2018 by SueB