S13.E15: A Most Holy Man

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, annspal said:

That's all Sam said. The rest is Dean talking.  No word from Sam about "Why not?" or "What other plan have you got?" because Dean didn't ask.

So I've come up with something that works for me about why Sam objected. For me, it's given that they 1) aren't worried about being thieves and 2) aren't afraid of facing down a couple of human mobsters.   

No, it isn't in the text. (Is that a requirement? I've been doing this wrong!) Maybe Sam wasn't thinking long term implications. Maybe it was just a moment of recognition that thievery isn't his first choice and he wondered if Dean recognized it too?

It seemed to me you were saying it's canon vs headcanon.  Sorry for that misunderstanding.

I don't really see why he would think thievery is not a first choice when they do all manner of theft already. But then Sam is a waffler.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

or me, it's not whether someone else (like maybe the priest himself) could still believe that the priest was saved by a miracle. The big question is why in the world would Dean (or Sam) -- knowing what they know -- have faith in a benevolent God answering anyone's prayers..

I'm surprised the show hasn't tied Cas' resurrection to his apparent newfound faith.  Maybe he's taking that as an outlier that Cas was able to get out of where he was of his own accord and that Chuck didn't answer his prayer. That's kind of a plot hole right now IMO

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm surprised the show hasn't tied Cas' resurrection to his apparent newfound faith.  Maybe he's taking that as an outlier that Cas was able to get out of where he was of his own accord and that Chuck didn't answer his prayer. That's kind of a plot hole right now IMO

Aren't they pretty much accepting that it was Jack who resurrected Cas through the Power of Cinnamon?

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it's the brotherhood/TFW that Dean has faith in. The priest's lecture revolved around doing small good deeds, doing what one can, and the world will be a better place (Kumbaya, m'lord). Dean has (almost) always been the one with faith in their ragtag family, sometimes he just needs a little reminder.

Okay, I can accept that. Of course, having a belief that you and your family and friends will be able to make a difference in the world, if you keep trying, is different from having faith in God, or a Supreme Being, or even in the Power of Goodness. It's not about believing in miracles or religious faith or anything supernatural. The priest was not saved by someone doing a good deed.

You are right, gonzosgirrl, that Dean does usually "keep the faith" as far as TFW is concerned. But even during those dark times when he has lost that faith, he mostly seems to keep trying to do what needs to be done anyway.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Aren't they pretty much accepting that it was Jack who resurrected Cas through the Power of Cinnamon?

Ahhh...yes, I forgot about that! DERP! Thanks.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, I can accept that. Of course, having a belief that you and your family and friends will be able to make a difference in the world, if you keep trying, is different from having faith in God, or a Supreme Being, or even in the Power of Goodness. It's not about believing in miracles or religious faith or anything supernatural. The priest was not saved by someone doing a good deed.

You are right, gonzosgirrl, that Dean does usually "keep the faith" as far as TFW is concerned. But even during those dark times when he has lost that faith, he mostly seems to keep trying to do what needs to be done anyway.

Amen! (to the bolded)

I don't think anybody would or could believe that Dean has faith in God/Chuck right now, and he didn't specify who/what he has faith in. I just think the pep talk reminded him of his belief in TFW, in fighting the good fight, in saving people hunting things - the family business. :)

[Bobcatkitten]

Totally forgot about two of the fave Sam moments last night!

 

When mob guy points out they died six years ago and he starts to explain, well there's a funny story. And then gets cut off.

Also, his reaction shot when called Lerch was a hoot. 

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh my gods. I didn't even consider how he managed that LOL. I was more annoyed with the "joke" about dodging bullets

Why did the joke annoy you? 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Why did the joke annoy you? 

Because Syria is a war torn place IRL and I didn't think it needed to be there. It was insensitive at best.

[Wayward Son]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because Syria is a war torn place IRL and I didn't think it needed to be there. It was insensitive at best.

Fair enough and yeah you’re right it’s in poor taste! 

[Jonesy]

Well I really liked it--took me a bit to get into the tone and light hearted feel but it ended up a very entertaining change of pace.  Dean talking murder if someone stole baby was hilarious.  And Dean, it does seem he has faith that TFW can fix things and maybe that is way Chuck works as the Holy Man implied.

Thought it telling that the mention of Cas was matter of fact and seems like there is no present conflict with the boys anymore and I take it the show won't push Cas going Dark too far...after all the 2 head honchos wrote this and they have the clearest vision where the story goes.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Jakes

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

- IF this year is about faith, then Dean is going to do what Dean does.  If Sammy is struggling in an area,

It never really made sense to me why Sam has lost faith.   Because at the start of the season he was the one with the faith that Jack could be good, and that Mary was alive. 

As we've seen Jack is a precious ray of sunshine whose because family and lives in the bunker in less than a 1/3 of the season, and he was right about Mary.  They even got Cas back.  So the priest saying "good things do happen" seems to be too little too late since they've experienced this 3 times this season.

Everything Sam had faith in and even stuff he didn't turned out to be true.

So what if they don't have a plan.  These guys usually don't have a plan.  If they do its pretty much guarunteed to go sideway.  Its when their backs up against the wall they tend to figure these things out. 

So there is no real reason for Sam to be struggling with his faith right now. 

If he;s so worried about monsters and another apocalypse, why isn't he protesting more about opening the door to Rift World?  Which has a big possibility of making it easier for Michael to cross paths.  I could see Sam struggling if the thought there was no way to rescue Mary but there is.  And the show isn't really acting like its a big deal.

It just seems that Sam is mopey/depressed/struggling because the writers decided it was Sam's turn regardless if it make sense in the context of the story line.  Which is bad writing 101. 

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It never really made sense to me why Sam has lost faith.   Because at the start of the season he was the one with the faith that Jack could be good, and that Mary was alive. 

This is what makes me wonder if when Jack mind melded with them if something didn't change in them both or when they were in the Bad Place. He got confirmation that Mary is alive which he knew. Jack is stuck there but he doesn't seem to be worrying about him that much. Sam's about face really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[annspal]

A couple more things noticed on rewatch:

- The Patricia Hotel (the sign at least!) has moved from Sioux City in S4's Criss Angel magician episode to Seattle. (I love when they repurpose set pieces, props, and actors. When it's this kind of unmistakeable, I take it as deliberately reinforcing the idea of replays, etc.) They really went out of their way to make up Margaret Astor to remind us of Josie/Abaddon with the pearls added to the trademark SPN red hair and red lips.

- The woman in the coffee shop that Dean was flirting with while Sam researched? She was reading Guarded by Demons. I really expected she'd have a part to play later. Will she return (is she observing/reporting to someone?), or was the moment meant as a no more than us getting to watch Dean be Dean? 

- Speaking of.... On first watch, I missed the flash of satisfaction from Dean to Sam making sure Sam noticed when the mobster used the word "whack" in conversation (after Sam razzed Dean for using the word out on the street). Nice!

[Wayward Son]

This episode was pretty dull overall! It confirmed what I already highly suspected brother only episodes are sooooooo dull! They need other recurring characters be it Cas, Jack, Jody or Mary to bounce off to keep things interesting! They worked great back in the day, but now not so much! This and The Scorpion and the Frog were snoozefests. 

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This episode was pretty dull overall! It confirmed what I already highly suspected brother only episodes are sooooooo dull! They need other recurring characters be it Cas, Jack, Jody or Mary to bounce off to keep things interesting! They worked great back in the day, but now not so much! This and The Scorpion and the Frog were snoozefests. 

Well, if you don't like the characters, you're not going to be interested in watching them.  But there certainly were *many* other characters to watch--just (apparently) not any that caught your interest.  It's not only "recurring characters" that can be interesting!   :)   

TBH, I feel the same way about the angels eps---"sooooooooo dull."    It doesn't mean that they're (necessarily) badly written, or that others won't enjoy them, just that I didn't.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if you don't like the characters, you're not going to be interested in watching them.  But there certainly were *many* other characters to watch--just (apparently) not any that caught your interest.  It's not only "recurring characters" that can be interesting!   :)   

TBH, I feel the same way about the angels eps---"sooooooooo dull."    It doesn't mean that they're (necessarily) badly written, or that others won't enjoy them, just that I didn't.  

Yeah I'd agree one off characters can be good, but neither of the brother only episodes this season have featured particularly interesting one off characters IMO. Perhaps that's a large part of why I find brother only episodes quite dull these days whereas I enjoyed quite a few of the early season brother only episodes the quality of the secondary characters surrounding them and the overall writing has diminished! At least IMO anyway. 

[MysteryGuest]

I just finished watching the episode again, and I liked it better the second time around.  It actually moves pretty quickly when there are no commercials, so it flowed much better.  Still not a trace of the supernatural in this one, but I did enjoy the brother banter.  These guys spend a damn lot of time together, so it doesn't surprise me that they'd get on each other's nerves on occasion.  They're slowly turning into Bobby and Rufus, which I think is funny.

The ending worked better for me this time around, too.  I think being around the Padre helped both of them alter their perspective just a bit.  Not regarding God, but just the idea that doing good is still worthwhile.  They've been through a lot this year, and they've both been about as low as you can get.  Sam is obviously still struggling.  But big picture here is that God did choose them to protect mankind, and he had the utmost faith that they'd be able to do it.  And Billie reiterated that message to Dean earlier this year.  So I think Dean's comment about having faith may stem a bit from that.  He's always had faith in Team Free Will, and this may have just reinforced it a bit for him.  I'm not sure it means anything more than that.  

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

I think Fr Lucca gave the thesis of the episode from Fr Lucca's perspective:

And he also said: 

Which is part of the TFW creed.  So, that's what Dean has faith in (IMO).

But taken collectively, this entire episode was an episode about faith (not necessarily in God) and it was disguised by a fun little film-noir.  It's a bit on the nose.  The episode itself was kinda the McGuffin, with the skull of St Peter being the McGuffin within the McGuffin.  
 

Dean has faith in himself and Sam.  I agree.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, annspal said:

A couple more things noticed on rewatch:

- The Patricia Hotel (the sign at least!) has moved from Sioux City in S4's Criss Angel magician episode to Seattle. (I love when they repurpose set pieces, props, and actors. When it's this kind of unmistakeable, I take it as deliberately reinforcing the idea of replays, etc.) They really went out of their way to make up Margaret Astor to remind us of Josie/Abaddon with the pearls added to the trademark SPN red hair and red lips.

- The woman in the coffee shop that Dean was flirting with while Sam researched? She was reading Guarded by Demons. I really expected she'd have a part to play later. Will she return (is she observing/reporting to someone?), or was the moment meant as a no more than us getting to watch Dean be Dean? 

- Speaking of.... On first watch, I missed the flash of satisfaction from Dean to Sam making sure Sam noticed when the mobster used the word "whack" in conversation (after Sam razzed Dean for using the word out on the street). Nice!

They dressed Astor in retro forties inspired garb as a nod to film noir femme fatale.  I agree thst the hair and lips were a nod to Abaddon.  Taking on the MoC reckless was to take out Abaddon.I take this as yet another hint that Dean is going to make a deal with Michael to take out some peeps and save Mary.

I absolutely agree that the replays are deliberate. I have been reading them as subtext hinting at the overall mytharc since 12.1.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Jakes said:

Well I really liked it--took me a bit to get into the tone and light hearted feel but it ended up a very entertaining change of pace.  Dean talking murder if someone stole baby was hilarious.  And Dean, it does seem he has faith that TFW can fix things and maybe that is way Chuck works as the Holy Man implied.

Thought it telling that the mention of Cas was matter of fact and seems like there is no present conflict with the boys anymore and I take it the show won't push Cas going Dark too far...after all the 2 head honchos wrote this and they have the clearest vision where the story goes.

I still think Cas will.  Angeks are not supposed to be in contact with tablets.  Metatron became a psychotic megalomaniac from exposure to  the angel tablet.  I think Cas was reprogrammed by Jack, reinforced by the resurrection, and now he has the contents of the denon tablet in his head.

I tbink he had to have removed everything into himself to remove the danger Donatello presented much like he took Sam's hellpain. 

This is much worse I suspect.  I expect him to go off the rails and probably split from TFW as far as goals and methods.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I guess its my UO that I liked the episode. Loved the call out to Maltese falcon and noir films. I loved that the episode had just Sam and Dean. No side characters-just the brothers. And to be shallow, Dean looked more gorgeous than ever this episode! HOW?

Dean looks mighty fine in a suit.

11 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Honestly this ^ made me laugh out loud.  I enjoyed the episode for some damn reason.  I like a caper movie with everyone double crossing everyone else (maybe it's the Brit in me).  But Sam is getting irritating with this high horse nonsense.  It's actually making him really unlikeable.  Judge not lest ye be judged... and all that, Sam.

Best bit was Dean's announcement that he'd torture and then murder anyone who stole Baby. Jensen was marvellous and he carried it through with expressions and everything.  I think Dean loves Baby maybe a wee bit more than he loves his brother?  Baby never judges.

The Priest being the Holy Man who could provide the blood was obvious from the minute he announced who he was and waxed all profound and wise all over the place.  There were even tweets.  It was pretty obvious.  But subtlety is rarely the thing anymore - in almost any hour long TV series episode. 

I hate spring hiatuses.  It all has be spaced out for May Sweeps.  Expect ratings to dip.

I love British caper movies.  Ritchie is a master at them.

[Jonesy]

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I still think Cas will.  Angeks are not supposed to be in contact with tablets.  Metatron became a psychotic megalomaniac from exposure to  the angel tablet.  I think Cas was reprogrammed by Jack, reinforced by the resurrection, and now he has the contents of the denon tablet in his head.

I tbink he had to have removed everything into himself to remove the danger Donatello presented much like he took Sam's hellpain. 

This is much worse I suspect.  I expect him to go off the rails and probably split from TFW as far as goals and methods.

The tablet had nothing to do with Metatron's behavior and this tablet won't effect Cas.  And ZERO evidence Jack reprogrammed him.  That said it's possible they make Cas go bad for a while but I still see that as remote seeing how they mentioned him this week.   Not much worries for Cas seeing how they set it up this week.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Jakes

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand why this episode exists in this season when there are SO MANY other things that need to be covered.

Why didn't they make the damn mobsters at least a faction of monsters. Whilst Bloodlines was awful at least the monster mobsters were monsters.  I liked the Benders in s1 because they were in contrast to the monsters of s1 and showing how awful they were. And the Benders are way more terrifying than mobsters.

Why not make the mobsters into Styne like characters.  Why not tie it to the underground monster auction in Breakdown ? Or something ANYTHING but this?  Sure it got the Blood of a Most Holy Man, but the route to get there was poor. 

Oh and Sam and Dean killed humans and neither were amped up on Mark of Cain nor Soulless.  I mean I don't care since it was mobsters who were going to kill them, but isn't it a thing in this show that the boys killing humans is verboten and frowned upon?

As to Dean having faith at the end...well, Dean said back in s1 that he doesn't pray but he would pray for Leila and he said this season that he wanted Sam to keep the faith. Jensen was really weird in that closing scene and I felt like he wasn't "Dean" at all. I don't know that he was Jensen, but he sure seemed to not be Dean to me. Not just the final like of "I have faith", but throughout the final scene. It was weird.  

I agree with others that Dean being undermined by the Priest about sometimes doing bad to do good is unnecessary. But then I did predict that Dean saying that line would end up with him being proven wrong to feel that way and VOILE ! 

Sam being "dainty and pearl clutching" tm Aeryn13, about stealing and Dean being dumb in the episode really took me out of it and I legit thought, okay...is it going to be revealed that Sam and Dean are doppelganger versions here? I've wondered if ever since they were in the Bad Place if something didn't happen to them.

I don't get what they are doing with Sam at all here.  He doesn't make sense anymore.

You know I  think the episode showed Dean getting to that emotional point of desperation and depression that leads to him recklessly sacrificing himself to make a deal with Michael to save Mary and take out some dangerous perps.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

They're slowly turning into Bobby and Rufus, which I think is funny.

Which one is which? *g* 

I totally took the dame to be a poor man's Bela. Abaddon never occured to me.

Edited March 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Because autocorrect sucks

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean looks mighty fine in a suit.

Damn! His hair was great-not too short LOL

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

You know I  think the episode showed Dean getting to that emotional point of desperation and depression that leads to him recklessly sacrificing himself to make a deal with Michael to save Mary and take out some dangerous perps.

I didn't see this at all.  If any of the brothers is getting to the point of desperation, I'd say its Sam.  He's the one who seems to want to find a way to stop all the monsters. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He's the one who seems to want to find a way to stop all the monsters. 

When Sam was saying these things it actually gave me a momentary shred of hope that they may still resurrect the MOL in some fashion.  Not this season, but maybe next.  I'm sure it won't happen, but just that tiny glimmer of possibility is enough to keep me going for now.

[Katy M]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was just rolling my eyes at that whole thing so I might have gotten the order of events wrong. I thought Margaret was killed because she double crossed Chicanery Guy.  And Sam wasn't actually under threat of death at that point because Chicanery Guy was dealing with Sam not Margaret. It seemed to me if Sam would have accepted the deal, he wouldn't have been shot. Once Sam shot at Chicanery Guy's minion that's when the shootout started, didnt it?

As an aside, Dean exposing himself in a ridiculous "cool" action stunt where he's firing both guns that way was ABSURD for this show and totally out of place. I mean it was cool and will look good on Jensen's action reel for further projects but it was STOOPID in this episode. 

I just rewatched t his scene.  Bald guy shoots Margaret.  Sam then ducks for cover.  everyone else starts shooting and running for cover and THEN Sam starts shooting.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn't see this at all.  If any of the brothers is getting to the point of desperation, I'd say its Sam.  He's the one who seems to want to find a way to stop all the monsters. 

I got one moment when Dean looked as serious as I've ever seen him look, that he MIGHT ,but it's like 1 million  to 1 odds it would happen,t hat Dean might start thinking about ending all the monsters for Sam's sake because he's so depressed. That's why got a Trial and error vibe, and that MAYBE again odds of 1 million to 1, that it would be Dean but he would do it so Sam could have a normal life. I don't think Dean is desperate and I don't think it would be an irrational or emotionally driven panic reason. Cause I don't get desperate or panic from Dean at all right now.

Not even on subtext level.

If that does happen it's poorly set up . I mean for me one line of dialogue from Sam isn't enough for this viewer.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I just rewatched t his scene.  Bald guy shoots Margaret.  Sam then ducks for cover.  everyone else starts shooting and running for cover and THEN Sam starts shooting.  

Thanks!

Edited March 10, 2018 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I got one moment when Dean looked as serious as I've ever seen him look, that he MIGHT ,but it's like 1 million  to 1 odds it would happen,t hat Dean might start thinking about ending all the monsters for Sam's sake because he's so depressed. That's why got a Trial and error vibe, and that MAYBE again odds of 1 million to 1, that it would be Dean but he would do it so Sam could have a normal life. I don't think Dean is desperate and I don't think it would be an irrational or emotionally driven panic reason. Cause I don't get desperate or panic from Dean at all right now.

I actually got this a bit from that last scene, too-although it could have been Jensen just trying to imbue something more into it than was just on paper. He does that often. And he's very good at it. So I'd quite easily go with/take Dean doing something reckless and drastic albeit in more calm manner(yes, like Dean hosting Michael...) in order to take down a goodly number of baddies-and even if it was presented to us as his doing it partly because of what Sam said here. I'd take that in a heartbeat, tbh, and consider it the set up here.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Myrelle

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think this episode was actually written by outsiders? So the ability of the current writing team should have little to do with its own quality. The main issue will be whether these guest writers have done enough research to keep Sam, Dean and Cas true to themselves. 

I honestly didn't realize that.  But that opens up the other can of worms that you mentioned...will these "other" writers be able to write these characters the way we know and love them?  Ultimately, it's one episode, so I'm not losing sleep over it, but it would be great to have it be a success.  It's been hyped quite a bit, so I'm thinking their audience may be bigger than normal. 

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, scribe95 said:

I am seeing less and less of a line between Dean and Jensen for example. Sam and Jared are still quite different. 

I kind of feel that both of them have become far too much like their characters in their real lives. I've felt that way for a long time now. Life imitating art, if you will. Strange, yes, but definitely not unheard of.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I kind of feel that both of them have become far too much like their characters in their real lives. I've felt that way for a long time now. Life imitating art, if you will. Strange, yes, but definitely not unheard of.

I don't think we really know what they're like in their real lives. We know what we see at the cons and I do think that they are sincere with the fans, but it's still not real life. I just think there is only so much they can do with the writing they are given. In fact I think if it were not for their own Nuance on the characters they wouldn't have any at all, not with this crew.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think having seen videos, cons and countless interviews over the years we have a pretty good idea who they are. 

[SueB]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I kind of feel that both of them have become far too much like their characters in their real lives. I've felt that way for a long time now. Life imitating art, if you will. Strange, yes, but definitely not unheard of.

I’d say ‘grumpy Jensen’ at cons is just schtick and many times he channels Dean but Jensen is far more gentle and sophisticated than Dean. Jared is far more manic and playful than Sam.  And I think Jared has a plethora of personality traits he generally keeps out of the limelight.  

So, I think that it’s easy to slip into ‘Sam and Dean’ but J2 have distinguishable personalities.  

[gonzosgirrl]

Edited - not the thread for it. Sorry.

OAN, why is this thread not stickied? I keep looking at last week's episode up there.

Edited March 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[takalotti]

On 3/8/2018 at 10:56 AM, Diane said:

DIVINE INTERVENTION – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are close to collecting everything they need to open a rift into the apocalyptic world and possibly rescuing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert). The one missing ingredient leads the Winchesters to a black market for religious relics where everything is not always as it seems. Writer: Andrew Dabb and Robert Singer, Director: Amanda Tapping

I’m confused by this description. They aren’t close to collecting everything they need. At the start of the episode they had 0 of the 4 items they needed. The blood of a most holy man wasn’t the ONE missing ingredient; it was the first one they got. To be clear, I’m not "blaming" Diane for this, but wherever it was copied from.

 

On 3/9/2018 at 10:15 AM, Katy M said:

On 3/9/2018 at 4:17 AM, companionenvy said:

I also do not understand why the show thinks it is funny to have Dean stumble over the priest's name or not know the word chicanery (this last wasn't 100 % clear from the episode, but based on the way it was played, I think that was the implication). Dean is not an idiot. 

One boring, logistical question: Cas doesn't have his wings, does he? So how is he in Syria?

I never got the impression that Dean didn't know the word chicanery.  I think he just found it amusing that the guy used such a high-falutin word, when he's really just a criminal. That was my take anyway.

Can angels still become invisible?  I see no reason why not.  In which case, Cas could board a plane without a passport or ticket.

I agree with CompanionEnvy that the way it played, Dean didn’t know the word 'chicanery.' When Greenstreet asked them "Since you had the nerve to come in here under false pretences, I assume you won’t be above a little bit of chicanery. Hmm?" Dean's expression when he looked at Sam definitely said to me 'I don’t know what that means so I can’t answer. You gotta take this one.' And then later when Dean said "Now you’re above a little, uh, chicanery?" I absolutely read his expression during the delivery as a proud 'Check me out! I learned a new word and now I’m using it.'

Now, should he have known it before? I don’t know. Should he have been able to figure out based on context that it basically meant tomfoolery? Probably. But I’m okay with Dean not wanting to assume the meaning and possibly giving the wrong answer. I'm okay with him deferring to his brother. Plus no one actually ended up defining it for him before he used it correctly with Sam. So he probably had an idea what it meant when Greenstreet said it, and then Sam’s answer confirmed he was correct, so then he knew what it meant and how to use it.

All that said, I don’t think the way I saw it played meant that Dean was an idiot/buffoon/dummy.

 

I had the same question about Cas getting to Syria. I assumed they just gave him fake IDs, used a stolen credit card and bought him a ticket, but I like Katy's idea too. I kinda wish we could have seen that either way - Cas in a new setting usually has good humor to go with it.

Edited March 11, 2018 by takalotti

[Linderhill]

On 3/9/2018 at 12:06 AM, catrox14 said:

I reallly liked the actor who played the Priest. I really want him to show up again.

His name is Massi Furian.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2939724/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

I kept looking at him and wondering why he looked familiar.  I caught a rerun of "The Assassination Of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story" latest episode and realized he was one of the designers in the opening scene with the Versace sibs.  IMDB lists him as "Designer #2."

[auntvi]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

And I think Jared has a plethora of personality traits he generally keeps out of the limelight.

What does that mean?

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Edited - not the thread for it. Sorry.

OAN, why is this thread not stickied? I keep looking at last week's episode up there.

I think the thread creator can pin it.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

What does that mean?

Well, did you know the depths of his depression?  I didn't til I read "Family Don't End With Blood".  It was brutally honest of him, and important for others to read who are in potentially similar states, but not something I knew.  Not that I needed to, but with all the cons, interviews, social media, etc... I thought we had a decent feel for both.  From time to time we get other little snippets that impress upon me how limited our sight-view is.  And we've also seen Jared lose his patience on social media. Yet this is the same guy who will squat down in a M&G and look straight into the eyes of someone struggling and put everything on hold until that person is okay.  And to me, it's NOT a persona when he does that.  It's instinctual compassion and it's impactful. 

Please don't think I'm negatively comparing Jared or Jensen. From my interactions, both are genuinely good guys with complex personalities (like most normal people have) and we've just seen parts of it.    I singled out Jared because of how much he's shared in other venues -- even though it's a published book, FDEWB is not the front page of the LA Times.  

My whole point to my comment above is that while "Sam and Dean" pick up some "Jared and Jensen" traist. and apparently visa versa, it's limited. There's more to them than that.  And I don't think they are remotely just playing "themselves". 

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/10/2018 at 1:04 PM, Myrelle said:

I actually got this a bit from that last scene, too-although it could have been Jensen just trying to imbue something more into it than was just on paper. He does that often. And he's very good at it. So I'd quite easily go with/take Dean doing something reckless and drastic albeit in more calm manner(yes, like Dean hosting Michael...) in order to take down a goodly number of baddies-and even if it was presented to us as his doing it partly because of what Sam said here. I'd take that in a heartbeat, tbh, and consider it the set up here.

I definitely got that vibe... but then I have been Cassandra talking about the signs that we are getting Dean!Michael for a while now.  This episode did make me think that Dean would d o it two accomplish two things... save Mary and do some cleaning up.

Oh and it never occurred to me that Dean did not know what chicanery meant.  I thought Dean was just giving off major zero fcks vibe throughout the episode.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/9/2018 at 9:22 PM, Jakes said:

The tablet had nothing to do with Metatron's behavior and this tablet won't effect Cas.  And ZERO evidence Jack reprogrammed him.  That said it's possible they make Cas go bad for a while but I still see that as remote seeing how they mentioned him this week.   Not much worries for Cas seeing how they set it up this week.

Zero evidence Jack reprogrammed him?!!!... did you not watch the end of last season. Cas' literally changed his goals after Fetus Jack did something to him and the change was so extreme that the Winchesters actually talked about it in subsequent episodes.  Hell Dean even mentioned it this season.  And Cas is still all about Jack.

I am pretty sure when the tablets were introduced there was an infodump about them not being for angels because they couldn't handle them. 

Also pretty sure that Metatron went from mild mannered dick to megalomaniac dick that was running around playing at Jesus and jonesing to kill Dean.  And that was from drawing upon the power of the angel tablet.

So I seriously doubt Cas is going to be okay if he took the power of the demon tablet into himself. 

The power is the word.

[mertensia]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:24 AM, Ria said:

What a mess of an episode this was. A bunch of characters I overwhelmingly have no reason to care about (other than Sam and Dean) all chasing after a Mcguffin. 

 

Well, yes. They had to be chasing a Mcguffin because The Maltese Falcon was a Mcguffin. 

I thought this was a great homage to The Maltese Falcon. 

[Jonesy]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Zero evidence Jack reprogrammed him?!!!... did you not watch the end of last season. Cas' literally changed his goals after Fetus Jack did something to him and the change was so extreme that the Winchesters actually talked about it in subsequent episodes.  Hell Dean even mentioned it this season.  And Cas is still all about Jack.

I am pretty sure when the tablets were introduced there was an infodump about them not being for angels because they couldn't handle them. 

Also pretty sure that Metatron went from mild mannered dick to megalomaniac dick that was running around playing at Jesus and jonesing to kill Dean.  And that was from drawing upon the power of the angel tablet.

So I seriously doubt Cas is going to be okay if he took the power of the demon tablet into himself. 

The power is the word.

The show made ZERO point that the tablets effecting angels and Metatron ZERO.  It is not effecting Cas.  Only the human the prophet without a soul was effected.  Metaron told God he went bad to get God's attention and from missing his glory.  Chuck accepted the answer because he was puzzled why Metatron went bad--Chuck or the show NEVER said the tablet is what caused it.   It is a fact on the show the tablets were NEVER said to effect angels--they weren't suppose to have them but it did not effect them personally.  None of the tablets effected anyone personally whether Crowley, Cas or Metatron...only the prophet without a soul.

With Cas and Jack--yes Jack gave the vision that Cas bought.  And he still believes in Jack.  But the show has shown Jack as an innocent, not a Machiavellian who manipulates and reprograms--it was an inherent vision he had that Cas believes in.  So Yes you are right there BUT Cas has not been changed by Jack internally to be bad as you think.  Look how sensitive Jack is himself to doing any harm and wanting to do good.  Cas went after the prophet because he was in warrior mode, to do whatever it takes like Dean taught him not because of any possible reprogramming.  And Cas has been more emotional being around the Winchesters and BEFORE Jack and in the emotional speech he gave to the Winchesters after he killed Billy the reaper.  Cas has been trending this way BEFORE Jack and before so-called programming. And last episode, the boys matter of factly bring up Cas--showing all is good between them...AND Dean and Sam have a disagreement where Dean takes the CAS line where this is an imperfect world, so we got to do whatever we can to save it even if that is a little shady or imperfect too.  So Dean implicitly endorses Cas's recent behavior.  They are in warrior mode.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Jakes

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, Jakes said:

The show made ZERO point that the tablets effecting angels and Metatron ZERO.  It is not effecting Cas.  Only the human the prophet without a soul was effected.

I'm not sure what kind of effect you're specifically talking about, but when Cas first touched the angel tablet, he was able to break free of Naomi's control. I would call that an effect.  And, Metatron stated straight out that he was deriving power from it.   Now, if you're just talking about it causing someone to go evil, then I fully agree with that.  Metatron came up with his plan to kick the angels out of Heaven and take it over for himself long before he got the angel tablet (again).  I suppose there's no way we can no for sure what he was like before he ever started transcribing the tablets and maybe the effects lasted for millennia.  As far as Cas goes, yes, he broke Naomi's hold, but he did not go on to do anything evil.  Protecting the angel tablets from everyone, including the Winchesters, despite what Dean thought, was not evil.  Had he been successful in keeping it to himself, all would have been well-probably.

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure what kind of effect you're specifically talking about, but when Cas first touched the angel tablet, he was able to break free of Naomi's control. I would call that an effect.  And, Metatron stated straight out that he was deriving power from it.   Now, if you're just talking about it causing someone to go evil, then I fully agree with that.  Metatron came up with his plan to kick the angels out of Heaven and take it over for himself long before he got the angel tablet (again).  I suppose there's no way we can no for sure what he was like before he ever started transcribing the tablets and maybe the effects lasted for millennia.  As far as Cas goes, yes, he broke Naomi's hold, but he did not go on to do anything evil.  Protecting the angel tablets from everyone, including the Winchesters, despite what Dean thought, was not evil.  Had he been successful in keeping it to himself, all would have been well-probably.

Yeah, I mean more rewiring them or effecting them psychologically to go bad.  But yes it did zap Cas free of Naomi and Metatron maybe got a power boost but that tablet had nothing to do with the scribe's bad behavior. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

was able to break free of Naomi's control. I would call that an

 

I don't recall the tablet had any effect on Cas one way or another. She controlled him before he touched it and Dean getting through to Cas broke the connection to Naomi along with Cas fighting it.

All the programming was from Naomi. Cas just decided it couldn't go to heaven or stay with humans.

So to that end. I don't see Cas being affected by the demon tablet. The only thing that could happen IMO is that if he took all the data in Donny's head, the words in a certain order could harm him. But not the tablet iitself doing something. It's not like the Book of the Damned calling to Dean. IMO

Edited March 12, 2018 by catrox14
thought posts had merged but they didn't soryy

[catrox14]

merged into previous post, which is what I tried to do before. I don't know why it didn't work. weird.

Edited March 12, 2018 by catrox14
intended to be part of previous post