S13.E14: Good Intentions

[BoxManLocke]

Jack, Mary POV and StrongCastiel are the positive things I'm keeping from this episode. It was obviously much better than the last one, but that's mostly thanks to BuckLeming who manage to set the bar below ground after their episodes. Kind of a blessing for the writers that get to come after them.

 

Anyway apart from that, the show is in a pretty dire place creatively. The alternative universe is weak AF and so low-budget it feels and looks like a 90s SF show, the big bads are some of the worst the show has ever had (I can't tell which one is more boring between Asmo and Michael but they both suck ass and are dumb as rocks), and we're supposed to get excited about a season 5 remake with MUCH lesser versions of Lucifer and Michael.

Also just a reminder in case the writers forgot, part of what made seasons 4 and 5 so special was the personal stakes the brothers had in this apocalypse. Lucifer, Michael and co weren't the focus, Sam and Dean were. How the events affected them on a personal level. How all of this helped them grow and change as characters and how it made their bond stronger.

Instead, they're going for the Lucifer and Michael show (the former has become a parody of a once beloved character, and the latter has the charisma of a dried-up barnacle), with Sam and Dean mostly being there as pawns.

The only character who's starting to have emotional stakes in this story is Jack, but a new character can't carry all that stuff alone. Him vowing to protect what's left of the people in the AU is cute and all, but that's not enough for me to care, and if I'm being honest it's pretty lazy writing, but thankfully I have a soft spot for Jack.

 

I don't see how they can salvage any of this so far into the season, so I'm just hoping they'll kill as many characters as possible in the finale so season 14 can start fresh and not be as horribly bloated as season 13.

 

Also, please keep Cass the way he is right now. The character hasn't been this enjoyable in a very long time.

[Castiels Cat]

Okay I sorta watched what I missed on my phone with connection acting up bigly … so many many skips.
Big cheers to Dean and Sam for stopping the Apocalypse. It makes what appears to be happening now more tragic.
Yikes Dean has absolutely no issue about summoning what he believed to be humans to kill and cut out their hearts for a spell. Yep Dean is dark. That is very Plum Sisters of him.
Gog and Magog were Neolithic Rosencrantz and Guldenstein types. That entire scene was a hoot. Jensen and Misha are both bringing their A gane this season.
Also I was off on the nephilim spec… no syrorise since i had not seen it. Weird that at they were giants that survived the flood. Also weird that they were made of sand. Weirder still that their swords cut/ broke an angel blade. Thos still could be Jack killing blades by the way. .
Dean killing both seems significant. He is stronger than Cas for one. Some lore equates their killer wirh the Messiah. Their death is considered a harbinger of the Apocalypse. It all hints at DEAN having a special role and is reminiscent of his previous titles (Michael’s sword, righteous man). So yeah. Still on the crazy Dean!Michael train.
Weird faces aside Cas does seem in Machiavellian soldier mode. Even if POOG did not rewire him a bit it bodes poorly because militaristic angel mode leads to Apocalyptic dystopias. He definitely was pissed about Dean. So now that I have seen this I am understanding Cas’ mindset more although I will not discount POOG rewiring him a bit
He still seems to see Jack as some messiah too per his vision courtesy of fetus jack and seems to see his resurrection as a sign that his greater purpose is serving Jack. Again militaristic angels trying to create a utopia for a leader is exactky bow one ends up with an Apocalypse.
The weird facial expressions and mildly sadistic behavior towards Lucifer…. POOG rewired him.
I know that they were in a church however that was a lot of blatant messiah iconography around Jack. Perhaps more than Dean was associated with in season 4. It could just mean he saves alt-world from Michael I guess. Or they are making a connection between Jack and Christ to signify Jack will die.
The lingering shot of Michael within the opening Jack created in the metal grace suggests that Jack opens a the rift and Michael gets through.
Bobby loves Mary. I kind of like gentleman Bobby.
The Bobby and Mary conversation. Definitely two universes that differ because of Mary saying yes or no. I favor the quantum multiverse because Billie had a discussion with Dean on this subject which I cannot ignore. I do love the Buffy vengeance demon idea and that could work.
There were three major things to take away from the conversation. Mary’s guilt is her driving emotion which makes sense because everything she did last season was obviously guilt driven. She is also protective of her sons and very proud of them throughout the episode.
Bobby not only points out that the difference between their two worlds resulted from Mary’s choice he states that Dean and Sam make theur world safe. So this It’s a wonderful Apocalypse and has been written to remind them and us of the positive difference the Winchesters make. I vaguely recall fans grumbling that the brothers were no longer written as heroes and wonder if the writers misunderstood thatl this wasbfan code for ” I hate tbis storyline”, took the complaints seriously and decided to show that thebWinchesters were heroes albeit dirty ones
The third takeaway is that Bobby is all the AU Apocalypse has. It is a hint that they need Jack so his plan to kill Michael is a good thing to do.
Jack acts like a cult member who has drunk all of the koolaid. The shadow animals were adorable. So he was weakened in the beginning by warding. He could kill Michael….
Donatello and Jack are mirrors. Donatello used Mr. Rogers as a morality guide… What woukd,Mr. Rogers do? He would be wearing a cardigan Donatello. It is his prime directive. Jack uses Dean and Sam… what would Dean and Sam do. Donatello went bad. From using his power… I really liked the extrapolation they made regarding the soul being a protective filter so Donatello was corrupted by the demon tablet. This suggests Jack using his power on a large scale will turn him to the dark side. They hinted at this when Jack was opening a rift to free the shadeen (sp).. Jack gaves us creepy psycho face rather than his usual bland moonie face. See what i mean about too many mytharcs.
I think he will open the rift for Mary at about the same time TFW opens their own rift. A very Supernatural gift of the magi moment. Michael probably comes here because this writing team likes multiple mytharc something fierce. Jack dies trying to stop him or goes mad/bad crazy…. They have so many balls in rthecasir this season that I cannot tell.
And yes the recipe to open the rift screams Dean making a deal with Michael. Which can’t be good given what we have seen about Michael. The fact that our michael is crazy is the wildcard.
All I really know is that it is getting very interesting.

[Ria]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the idea of a multi-verse that there are infinite universes of infinite different outcomes? I mean, there should be a universe out there where Sam and Dean exist but didn't avert the apocalypse; a universe where John didn't raise Sam and Dean as hunters; a universe where only Dean exists and one where only Sam exists; a universe where Sam and Dean didn't exist and someone else averted the apocalypse; a universe where Sam and Dean only exist on a TV show called Supernatural...

I agree that events in the alternate appear to be the same up until the moment Mary made her choice, but I don't think they were one universe that split in two; they were always two different universes, IMO. 

I do think there would be multiple universes out there that sprung into existence as crossroads were reached. Which is why I don’t buy that Mary necessarily made the right choice in making the deal. But I think the show is pushing the idea that without that decision, and without Sam and Dean, we’d be left with this AU apocalyptic world. 

I don’t see how two entirely different universes could parallel each other so closely without there be a mutual starting point in the recent past. 

[gonzosgirrl]

My problem with the AU being our actual Mary ( or Bobby, Kevin etc. etc.) is that it seems to impart ultimate power to Mary Campbell. If it was only that one choice that changed the world, wouldn't anyone's choices cause all the new worlds? What if Bobby didn't go into hunting after his wife died? What if Dean ultimately refused to go up and be healed in Faith? Everybody makes decisions that cause butterfly effects every day. It's too much for me to accept that the AU is just a branch of our world. IMO it's an Alternate Universe, not an Alternate Reality. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My problem with the AU being our actual Mary ( Bobby, Kevin etc. etc.) Is that it seems to impart ultimate power to Mary Campbell. If it was only that one choice that changed the world, wouldn't anyone's choices cause all the new worlds? What if Bobby didn't go into hunting after his wife died? What if Dean ultimately refused to go up and be healed in Faith? Everybody makes decisions that cause butterfly effects every day. It's too much for me to accept that the AU is hust a branch of our world. IMO it's s an Alternate Universe, not an Alternate Reality. 

There very well may be 1,126,654,325,692,126 multiverses.  This one just happens to be the one we're seeing.  And, maybe it wasn't completely random that this is the one that got open.  Maybe because Mary came back from the dead, a death that happened because of that decision, these two worlds somehow grew closer together.  

[gonzosgirrl]

A couple other thoughts. Interesting that Mary never corrected Bobby's inference that she raised the boys. 

Also, I grinned when Dean said in no uncertain terms that he was going with Cas this time, and there was no argument.

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There very well may be 1,126,654,325,692,126 multiverses.  This one just happens to be the one we're seeing.  And, maybe it wasn't completely random that this is the one that got open.  Maybe because Mary came back from the dead, a death that happened because of that decision, these two worlds somehow grew closer together.  

Maybe. But I don't like it. For me, it dilutes the significance of our world and what the boys have both suffered and accomplished. It ruins things for me in a surprisingly profound way. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

There very well may be 1,126,654,325,692,126 multiverses.  This one just happens to be the one we're seeing.  And, maybe it wasn't completely random that this is the one that got open.  Maybe because Mary came back from the dead, a death that happened because of that decision, these two worlds somehow grew closer together.  

Grew closer together? How? 

 

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, I grinned when Dean said in no uncertain terms that he was going with Cas this time, and there was no argument.

That is my favorite part of the episode.  And the bacon. 

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Grew closer together? How? 

I don't mean physically, necessarily.  I'm not even sure how the whole thing works.  I'm just saying that when Amara brought Mary back, it called to the universe where she would have still been alive if not for her existence.  Maybe in the same way that had Jack been born during My Heart Will Go On, he would have opened the rift to the universe where the Titanic didn't sink.  Or, if he had been born immediately after Swan Song, he would have opened a rift to The End universe, or maybe a universe where Michael and Lucifer actually fought to the death.  Maybe there are certain times when universes are "closer" metaphysically when other big changes occur, especially if they are not natural.

[Wayward Son]

Glynn has reached her three strikes with me. I utterly detest her poor characterisation of Castiel and her continued demeaning of the character. Heaven forbid Jack mention Cas as one of his motivations for returning to camp even though he’s supposed to see him as a pseudo dad and all.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Glynn has reached her three strikes with me. I utterly detest her poor characterisation of Castiel and her continued demeaning of the character. Heaven forbid Jack mention Cas as one of his motivations for returning to camp even though he’s supposed to see him as a pseudo dad and all.

Agreed that it would have been nicer had Jack recognized that Michael's version of Castiel was nothing like the version he knew.  They made it appear that until he started ragging on Sam and Dean, Jack was buying into what he was saying.  Obviously, that was the dead giveaway for him, but I want to believe he was already suspecting something wasn't right.

I think we need to remind ourselves that this is Supernatural, and not some documentary on alternate universes.  Most of their most recent plots fall apart upon even a little dissection.  At this point, they're just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks, IMO.  If Mary's death was how the story began, then I guess it makes sense to revisit what might have happened if she'd made a different choice.  Of course, this does fly in the face of what we've been told in the past, specifically that she and John were destined to be together, and there was no way to alter their fate.  But since we know that canon is an ever-evolving thing on this show, I don't really know what to believe anymore.  I wish that the show was as concerned with canon as the fans are, but they've proven that they aren't, time and again.

This always leads me back to my hopeless wish that they'd have simplified things by sticking with the supernatural, rather than this bad acid trip we seem to be on.  I'd have much preferred that. 

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Thank God the writers wrote her as a fully realized character and not as some zombie female mommy trope whose whole life revolves around her kids. She even passes the Bechdahl test or whatever he is called.

Responding in the Mary thread.

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Glynn has reached her three strikes with me. I utterly detest her poor characterisation of Castiel and her continued demeaning of the character. Heaven forbid Jack mention Cas as one of his motivations for returning to camp even though he’s supposed to see him as a pseudo dad and all.

For me, this is the most interesting Cas has been in a good long while. He was reminiscent of the badass character we were first introduced to, tempered with his knowledge of humanity and love for the Winchesters. He got shit done and he didn't lie about it for once. This is the first time in forever I was excited by the character. To me, the lack of mention of Cas from Jack was minor in comparison. Glynn has shown the character more respect than anyone has this season, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

My ramblings-

I thought this was a decent ep and I did like more than I disliked. 

Positives:

• The return of badass Dean is always a welcome addition.   I liked the fight scene with Gog, and Magog and I liked that Dean got both kills while saving Cas. 
• Dean's screams during the 'fire" were chilling and filled with fear.  Jensen continues to make the most of what he gets.
• The bacon line.  LOL.  Dean always has the best one liners.
• Dean's amusement over the Gog brothers was amusing.
• A huge shout out to Jensen during that scene where Dean stops breathing.  It brought back memories of when he was stabbed by metatron.  I almost stopped breathing It was so real looking.  Damnit Ackles, stop it.

Negatives

• Jack.  He continues to bore me.  They should just change his name to Precious Nougat Sunshine and be done with it.  What's the point of making him Lucifer son if your not going to at least show a hint of a darkside.  Jack's "darkside" doesn't even approach off white.
• I'm over Bobby in any incarnation.
• The AU continues to be a dud.
• I thought they handled redemption for Mary's deal last year.  Because both Sam and Dean forgave her.  IMO, it was never the deal that was the problem with the character. 
• Zachariah- what was the point? All the other AU character have at least a resemblance to their former characters.  If they hadn't named the character I would never have matched him to our Zacheriah.  (Dean's kill is still way cooler).
• I wish the fire had been real. It would have been a very emotional moment  (This is the 2nd time a reference to Dean dieing in a fire has been made.  I wish this was going somewhere)
• The conversation between Dean, Cas and Sam.  They've all done worse for more selfish reasons.  It's like the writers tried to force an ethical dilemma into a place it didn't need to be for no other reason than just writing one.

Reserving Judgement:

• Michael- He's kind of dull right now, but the character seems ruthless and SPN has been lacking a true villian for a long time.  The potential is there.  Ketch grew on me last season. 

Random thought- I hope Dean and Cas kept the God swords.  They could come in handy.

Edited March 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Bergamot]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think it's foolish to make these deals--especially if you're a hunter and know that nothing good ever really comes of them--but I don't blame Mary for making the deal and never did. I blame her for not doing anything after she made the deal to protect her family. She probably couldn't have changed anything, but at least the effort would've shown she wasn't such a coward.

I never blamed Mary for making the deal either, in the sense that I think it makes her a horrible or evil person. She was being used as a pawn, and she was only human, and she made a horrible, tragic mistake that affected many lives. But in this episode they made it sound as if she should be absolved of even having made a mistake. Bobby refers to Mary as a "complicated woman", but in my opinion these writers don't want her to be a complicated woman; they want to simplify her.  Creating a sympathetic character doesn't mean you have to make them two-dimensional. It's similar to the problem I have with the character of Jack.

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the idea of a multi-verse that there are infinite universes of infinite different outcomes? I mean, there should be a universe out there where Sam and Dean exist but didn't avert the apocalypse; a universe where John didn't raise Sam and Dean as hunters; a universe where only Dean exists and one where only Sam exists; a universe where Sam and Dean didn't exist and someone else averted the apocalypse; a universe where Sam and Dean only exist on a TV show called Supernatural...

This is what I was thinking the show meant by having alternate universes. I like the way you describe it; so many interesting universes could exist!

I wonder, though, if the writers would agree with you that there could be a universe where Dean and Sam were born but didn't stop the apocalypse. That's part of the problem I have with the conversation with Mary and Bobby, where it is just assumed that Dean and Sam existing automatically equals no apocalypse. It wasn't always this way on the show, but Dean and Sam are now practically superheroes  (they refer to themselves as "the guys that save the world".)  It's their Destiny, and they are the Heroes, and if they are around, the world will be saved.

I liked it better when it was Michael and Lucifer who were both insisting that Dean and Sam had a destiny that could not be altered, and Dean and Sam were standing up for free will. I remember when Michael told Dean that free will is an illusion, calling him "one unimportant little man" and asking him what made him think he got to choose. Dean responded -- and this is one of my favorite quotes from the show -- "Because I got to believe that I can choose what I do with my unimportant little life." If we all have free will, then we can make choices that will change things, either for the worst or for better. I guess I just preferred the show when Dean and Sam were not accepted by everyone as the big heroes of the universe. I liked it better when they were unimportant and disregarded and still managed to change things just enough to save the day, because they refused to accept that everything to come was written in stone.

[catrox14]

I really don't know what Dabb is trying to accomplish with the AW anymore other than milking a story that dangerously edges on further destroying the canon of the show. 

He might be trying to drive home the point that Sam and Dean are needed which was never a question after s5 and not a question in s12 and not a question until he made it one in s13.  Dean lost everyone but Sam and that crushed him so he felt worthless. That was grief and depression talking. Not reflective of Dean's real view of himself. 

But that was not what was going on  when they met AU Bobby and learned about the war in their world so I don't see how that is the message now. IMO

If he's trying to rehab s12 Mary, who was divisive,  by having a version of Bobby, who is generally beloved by most of fandom,  essentially tell the audience by telling Mary, that her making a deal in her world was a GOOD THING because NOT making the deal in his world lead to the war in his world, is really just confirmation bias on AU Bobby's part because he doesn't AFAIK, know that the boys existence in SPN verse is precisely why Lucifer rose in our world.

What is that saying about Dean selling his soul for Sam? That it was really a good thing even though he was tortured in Hell for decades and tortured others which lead to him breaking the first seal, leading to Lucifer being freed by Sam and Ruby, but it's all good because they put Lucifer back in his cage the fight between Michael and Lucifer didn't happen? There were catastrophes that killed millions before they stuffed Lucifer back in the Cage. How would AW Bobby view those choices? I think he might be less charitable about Mary's choice if he had all that knowledge. Unless he wouldn't care because his world is just shitty and he's going to think anything that isn't his world now is all good.

To me, I find it hard to believe that is what Dabb is going for here but IMO that's the message he would be sending if this is really "OG Mary"'s fractured timeline, which I don't think is what his happening here.

Edited March 3, 2018 by catrox14
commas matter.

[ahrtee]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know that it was their vision for the season, but then I'm not sure how that even works on this show.  We were given the premise of "nature vs. nurture" for Jack, but that appears to have been a non-starter from the very beginning.  There might have been a nanosecond when we first laid eyes on Jack where we didn't know if he'd be good or evil, but from that point on, he was pretty much what we see now.  A sweet, naive innocent who appears to want to do good in the world.  I'm fine with that because I like Jack, but the suspense of not knowing which way he was going to go fizzled right out of the gate.

It does seem rather ridiculous that we've gotten more than halfway through the season and Jack's never even laid eyes on his father.  What's the point of having a son of Lucifer if you're not even going to hint at the possibility that the son could be even more evil than the father?  

No spoilers here, but I'm thinking that the "nature vs nurture" thing will kick in when Jack finally does get to meet his dad, whether it's precipitated by something Lucifer says or does that ignites the dormant part, or just causes Jack to recognize that other side of him.  That's about the only thing that would make Jack even vaguely interesting to me right now (though still a cliche), and would be much better IMO than Jack influencing Lucifer to turn good. OTOH, this ep seemed to indicate that Jack truly is good through and through and wants to take care of all the little children and give puppet shows, so I'm not sure if they're going to change directions so thoroughly.  Maybe in the last ep as a cliffhanger--will he or won't he go bad?  *sigh*

Or...does the episode title mean that he (or someone) is on the road to hell?

[MysteryGuest]

55 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

No spoilers here, but I'm thinking that the "nature vs nurture" thing will kick in when Jack finally does get to meet his dad, whether it's precipitated by something Lucifer says or does that ignites the dormant part, or just causes Jack to recognize that other side of him.

This wouldn't surprise me, but it would annoy me.  There's nothing the least bit ambiguous in how they've portrayed Jack as good, so to suddenly make him have evil thoughts will be completely out of left field.  Which, of course, means this is exactly what they're going to do.

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Or...does the episode title mean that he (or someone) is on the road to hell?

I was literally just coming here to post this! And if so, who? Sadly, I don't think it's Luci, since he was barely even mentioned in this ep.

 

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This wouldn't surprise me, but it would annoy me.  There's nothing the least bit ambiguous in how they've portrayed Jack as good, so to suddenly make him have evil thoughts will be completely out of left field.  Which, of course, means this is exactly what they're going to do.

This would be the level of plotting I've come to expect from this crew. However, if they bookend the season with !ZOMG!!! is Jack good or evil??!!??! without so much as one intentionally bad act from him until the end, then seriously, screw you Dabb.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was literally just coming here to post this! And if so, who? Sadly, I don't think it's Luci, since he was barely even mentioned in this ep.

Well, Luci going to hell wouldn't really be a surprise, would it?   And the bad guys have no good intentions.

Everyone else (except Luci!) had good intentions and did (or signed off on) some dark things (or things that could potentially turn very, very bad.)  Even Jack killing angels (and/or potentially opening another rift) sounds suspiciously like "good intentions gone bad."  After all, they've already gone there with Cas, Sam and Dean, and AFAIK, nobody cares if Mary goes bad or not.  :)   So I'm guessing it'll be Jack.     

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

However, if they bookend the season with !ZOMG!!! is Jack good or evil??!!??! without so much as one intentionally bad act from him until the end, then seriously, screw you Dabb.

Oh, I suspect they'll shoehorn something in in the last few eps and leave a cliffhanger at the end, because that will assure Alex another season for his fans (because TPTB can't have another purely good character, especially one who is, in theory, all-powerful, but they love having the boys have to fight all-powerful beings.  And where can you go after god and his sister?) *sigh*  

[catrox14]

Okay, riddle me this. Things I noticed upon rewatch.

Why didn't Cas know that Donatello was soulless??  This was revealed in s11 when Casifer was helping the brothers wasn't it? But even if Cas didn't know that then, can't angels sense when someone doesn't have a soul?? Wasn't that a thing in s9 and s10 with Len? Am I completely wrong on that point?

If I'm right that Cas would know if he was soulless without being told, was that just for exposition? Was it bad writing or a clue that something is not right with Cas? Like he couldn't heal the bank guard. That he bled from the mouth when Lucifer stabbed him a couple of episodes ago. Did Cas die again in that episode? Or was he just knocked unconscious.

Am I wrong about Cas detecting the absence of a soul in a person? Can you guys help me with this?

[Pondlass1]

Cas didn't know Sam was soulless.  He had to rummage about in his abdomin

[MysteryGuest]

The boys didn't learn that Donatello was soulless until this season when he tracked them down because of Jack.  And as Pondlass mentioned, he didn't know Sam was soulless, either.  As to whether an angel should be able to discern that, you would think so, but evidently not on this show.  I'd also think that losing your soul would affect your "prophetability", but I guess that doesn't happen either.  

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Cas didn't know Sam was soulless.  He had to rummage about in his abdomin

I thought Cas left Sam's soul behind intentionally and he knew it was gone? And he was lying?  I'm so confused right now. LOL help?

Edited March 3, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Cas left Sam's soul behind intentionally and he knew it was gone? And he was lying?  I'm so confused right now. LOL help?

Replying in all episodes threads. 

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Cas left Sam's soul behind intentionally and he knew it was gone? And he was lying?  I'm so confused right now. LOL help?

We can't possibly know that one way or the other, but I don't think he did.  He pulled Sam back up before he had any dealings with Crowley.  There was no reason for him to lie in The Man Who would be King. He wasn't talking to anybody else.  So, if he pulled Sam back out before he had plans to do anything, he had no reason to leave him behind soulless. Now, whether or not he later realized, but was prevaricating for some reason, that's another question.  But, again, there doesn't seem to be much reason to lie. He could have said he sensed Sam was soulless without bringing any suspicion on himself for his extracurricular activities. Though, he may not have liked the distraction. So, I could either way on his knowledge.  But, since he now didn't know Donatello had a soul, that pretty much seals it for me that he didn't know about Sam, either.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

We can't possibly know that one way or the other, but I don't think he did.  He pulled Sam back up before he had any dealings with Crowley.  There was no reason for him to lie in The Man Who would be King. He wasn't talking to anybody else.  So, if he pulled Sam back out before he had plans to do anything, he had no reason to leave him behind soulless. Now, whether or not he later realized, but was prevaricating for some reason, that's another question.  But, again, there doesn't seem to be much reason to lie. He could have said he sensed Sam was soulless without bringing any suspicion on himself for his extracurricular activities. Though, he may not have liked the distraction. So, I could either way on his knowledge.  But, since he now didn't know Donatello had a soul, that pretty much seals it for me that he didn't know about Sam, either.  

Ahhh...okay. I forgot about that. I haven't watched that episode in a while. Thanks! I feel better now that it wasn't a writing flub or a sign of not!Cas. Thanks everyone!

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Jack, Mary POV and StrongCastiel are the positive things I'm keeping from this episode. It was obviously much better than the last one, but that's mostly thanks to BuckLeming who manage to set the bar below ground after their episodes. Kind of a blessing for the writers that get to come after them.

 

Anyway apart from that, the show is in a pretty dire place creatively. The alternative universe is weak AF and so low-budget it feels and looks like a 90s SF show, the big bads are some of the worst the show has ever had (I can't tell which one is more boring between Asmo and Michael but they both suck ass and are dumb as rocks), and we're supposed to get excited about a season 5 remake with MUCH lesser versions of Lucifer and Michael.

Also just a reminder in case the writers forgot, part of what made seasons 4 and 5 so special was the personal stakes the brothers had in this apocalypse. Lucifer, Michael and co weren't the focus, Sam and Dean were. How the events affected them on a personal level. How all of this helped them grow and change as characters and how it made their bond stronger.

Instead, they're going for the Lucifer and Michael show (the former has become a parody of a once beloved character, and the latter has the charisma of a dried-up barnacle), with Sam and Dean mostly being there as pawns.

The only character who's starting to have emotional stakes in this story is Jack, but a new character can't carry all that stuff alone. Him vowing to protect what's left of the people in the AU is cute and all, but that's not enough for me to care, and if I'm being honest it's pretty lazy writing, but thankfully I have a soft spot for Jack.

 

I don't see how they can salvage any of this so far into the season, so I'm just hoping they'll kill as many characters as possible in the finale so season 14 can start fresh and not be as horribly bloated as season 13.

 

Also, please keep Cass the way he is right now. The character hasn't been this enjoyable in a very long time.

I see,where you are coming from, especially in regards to the Nepotism duo's writing  flaws 

I think the Fauxpocalyse. Might be a red hsrring of sorts to distract from the fact that they are moving everything in place for a real one with Winchesters.  Asmodeus is so lame that Letch appears to be constajt my trying not to laugh and Michael is stupid. 

I confess that there are so many storylines and characters in it now that it is confusing to see the forest for the trees. Too many balls in the air.

I do think they have set Dean up yo say yes to save Mary.  The guy is ready to cut out people's hearts for a spell... He will have no problem saying yes to michael to save  mommy.  They have shifted Sam into Dean's former caretaker and the moral high ground role, however  I also think there are hints for Sam saying yes too.  For me his car convo with Rowena raised this possibility and given Lucifer's current state Sam is his best bet to heal.  Not only is Sam his OTP but in season 9 with Gadreel we saw that vessel strength matters in this regard.

It is nice to see Cas with purpose however he seems to be dedicate to Jack as a warrior and militaristic angels are inherently dark characters on his show. It makes me nervous.

They have set up at lot of conflicting possibilities for Jack and Lucifer.  Jack wants to do good; ie. What would Sam and Dean do; and at the moment he identifies as human .  I think using his powers changes that balance and open a up the potential for him to break bad.  We saw the psych face he had when using his powers to free the shadeen.  And They have mirrored Donatello and Jack.  Donatello tried to do What Mr. Rogers would do and when he used his powers he was corrupted.

So Jack could go bad.  I think he will open a rift to free Mary; he opened jail up to free her which hints thematically to this.  He wants to kill Michael.  The framing of the last shots of Michael within Jack's opening suggests that he lives  long enough to get here.  I think AU Michael is there to motivate other characters which will start a chain event.  Actually this has already started.  Lucifer and Cas' actions are motivated by the upcoming War with Michael.  Jack has established life goals to kill him. The Winchesters  doubled down on rescue plans when they heard that AU Michael tortured her. Dean wasn't on board with opening the rift until he heard that. So AUMichael is the great motivator.  I don't see him lasting long once these balls are in motion.

Lucifer is inherently bad and yet he feels some fatherly inclination towards Jack and is hovering near humanity which has to intensify his fatherly love.  It sure looked like he was set for redemotion... but... that image on him on the crown with his army was unsettling.   And militaristic angels at war following his orders... this is another very scary scenario.

It is also the opposite of the first Winchester Apocalypse. Now we have Lucifer in heaven planning for War and Michael in the cage.  Instead of Sam releasing Lucifer unintentionally I tbink Dean will release Michael intentionally.  Once our Michael is our we are set up for an Apocalypse.  Michael us crazy, .Michael is not in charge of heaven however given Lucifer's comment about the single mindedness of his brothers in any universe to achieve their objective, he will be motivated and dangerous and crazy.

I have no idea what Asmodeus wants besides killing Lucifer and finding door opener Jack to free the shadeen.  It looked like that would be a bad thing and yet another mytharc so please not this season.  Despite the fact that he has Gabriel, a weird archangel  blade and some handy parlour tricks he feels inconsequential to me. Doesn"t mean he won't create distractions get someone killed or manage to use Donatello to release the shadeen using the demon tablet. I don't think the Apocalypse is his thing. It is possible Rowena is/will work with him to kill Lucifer. Common goals and she likes to feel superior to men.  There's no doubt she is superior. I hope that he provides her with all of tthe best evening gowns.

Gabriel  tryed to educate the boys, gave critical Intel, and failed to kill Lucifer the last time around.  They may reverse this to some extent or tweak it sideways. After all our Apocalypse  set-up is polar opposite at this point. He is a pretty big hint that we are getting our Apocalypse.  So is Dean killing Gog/Magog.

Killing them is an Apocalyptic harbinger in biblical lore much as Sam Killing lilith as previously.  Some lore equates their killer with the messiah.  Some texts conflate Michael  with Jesus.  Wiki does not go into tremendous detail however it is more evidence that Dean will play Sam's role in Apocalypse 2 0.   1st he kills Apocalyptic figures fulfilling a prophesy.  Next I think he will open the gate to release Michael and say yes.  Boom... Apocalypse.

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, riddle me this. Things I noticed upon rewatch.

Why didn't Cas know that Donatello was soulless??  This was revealed in s11 when Casifer was helping the brothers wasn't it? But even if Cas didn't know that then, can't angels sense when someone doesn't have a soul?? Wasn't that a thing in s9 and s10 with Len? Am I completely wrong on that point?

If I'm right that Cas would know if he was soulless without being told, was that just for exposition? Was it bad writing or a clue that something is not right with Cas? Like he couldn't heal the bank guard. That he bled from the mouth when Lucifer stabbed him a couple of episodes ago. Did Cas die again in that episode? Or was he just knocked unconscious.

Am I wrong about Cas detecting the absence of a soul in a person? Can you guys help me with this?

I think Cas had to look to see what was wrong it was not a first sight situation.  He coukd bit geal rhe bank guard because he was dead.  I think only arcangels can resurrect and probably Jesus Jack.

[SueB]

With the title "Good Intentions" we could probably look at all the decisions made with "good intentions" and their outcome, or possible outcome.

In order shown in the episode:
1) Donatello translating the demon tablet:
Good intention: Get a spell, get Mom & Jack back, seal Michael on the other side.
Result: Soulless Donatello was corrupted by the demon tablet (with help from Asmodeus) and turned into a murderous paradoid unstable individual

2) Get the spell ingredients:
Good intention: save Mom & Jack
Result: Questionable decision to murder 'humans or land' for their heart.  Ultimately not put to the test becuase they came out as 'ready to kill you' human shaped beings made of sand. Still, "ends justify means" thinking evident.

3) Save John:
Good Intention: Save John
Result: The Apocalypse, but her kids save the day.

4) Entertain the kids
Good intention: Harmless hand puppets to entertain the kids, gooses it with a little magic to make them awesome
Result: Sent out an unintended homing signal, Angels show up and start slaughtering the encampment.

5) Get the spell, pt 2:
Good intention: Get the spell
Result: "Ends Justify Means" shorts out Donatello's brain. Cas seems a little darker.

6) Help Donatello:
Good intention: Take him to the hospital to get help
Result: He's on life support and no new prophet will be called**

7) Save Mary & the encampment: 
Good intention: Kill Zachariah who is killing Mary, take out the "incoming" Angels
Result: Encampment happy, but now everyone knows how potent he is -- Jack will either lead or be used

In short, very few things actually went they way they intended.  And it seems like things are a little more evil than they started the episode.  Of course the boys didn't know Donnie would go nuts (as Asmodeus could have made it worse).  And Jack didn't mean to put the encampment in danger.  But ultimately, if I was to pick the MAJOR "Good Intentions", it'd be Cas having the good intention of helping Sam, Dean, Jack, and Mary and starting down the 'road to hell' with his choices.

 

**I think the 'switch' Metatron flipped was to keep Kevin in the veil and thus prevent another prophet from being called.  When Kevin was sent to Heaven and Amara used some God-class-juice, Donatello was called.  I guess what I'm saying is that another prophet might eventually be called but I don't know if they "activate" until something of Biblical proportions goes down (cracking open a tablet, sending the death fart cloud into a town...).  

Edited March 3, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I do think they have set Dean up yo say yes to save Mary. 

I don't see a need to say yes to Michael to save Mary, since Mary is no longer Michael's prisoner.  She just needs a way out of Rift World. 

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't see a need to say yes to Michael to save Mary, since Mary is no longer Michael's prisoner.  She just needs a way out of Rift World. 

Jack is likely going to kill Michael anyway. He's supposed to be the most powerful entity in SPN verse and I would argue the most powerful in the AW, too. Unless somehow they trap or kill Jack, no possessions are needed at all.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My problem with the AU being our actual Mary ( or Bobby, Kevin etc. etc.) is that it seems to impart ultimate power to Mary Campbell. If it was only that one choice that changed the world, wouldn't anyone's choices cause all the new worlds? What if Bobby didn't go into hunting after his wife died? What if Dean ultimately refused to go up and be healed in Faith? Everybody makes decisions that cause butterfly effects every day. It's too much for me to accept that the AU is just a branch of our world. IMO it's an Alternate Universe, not an Alternate Reality. 

The weird thing is the power is kind of meaningless. Because if the angels had a plan in s1-s5, Mary's choice was always going to be that way.  And to me I would think the angels have a plan in the AW as well? That's what I keep expecting to find out.

[trxr4kids]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because if the angels had a plan in s1-s5, Mary's choice was always going to be that way. 

Right, and if that world is a branch of our world if she didn't make the deal, why didn't she? I figured she made the deal because the cupids influence which I also attributed John's obsession to. Why didn't the angels and demons plan/scheme to get the vessels born, it makes no sense to me. I'll wait for the shocking (eye roll worthy) twist I guess.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't see a need to say yes to Michael to save Mary, since Mary is no longer Michael's prisoner.  She just needs a way out of Rift World. 

Yes... that is what I meant.. she is trapped over there and being tortured as far as Dean knows.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Right, and if that world is a branch of our world if she didn't make the deal, why didn't she? I figured she made the deal because the cupids influence which I also attributed John's obsession to. Why didn't the angels and demons plan/scheme to get the vessels born, it makes no sense to me. I'll wait for the shocking (eye roll worthy) twist I guess.

My theory is that every time a person really wrestles with a huge decision (and I mean huge) then the universe gets split, once where the person makes the decision one way, the other where she does it the other way.  So, the reason she didn't make the deal is that is because that is the decision she made.  She thought better of dealing with a demon.

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes... that is what I meant.. she is trapped over there and being tortured as far as Dean knows.

I guess I still don't see a need for Dean to say yes.  Why would Michael want to possess Dean.  He seems to have a perfectly good vessel. 

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

With the title "Good Intentions" we could probably look at all the decisions made with "good intentions" and their outcome, or possible outcome.

In order shown in the episode:
1) Donatello translating the demon tablet:
Good intention: Get a spell, get Mom & Jack back, seal Michael on the other side.
Result: Soulless Donatello was corrupted by the demon tablet (with help from Asmodeus) and turned into a murderous paradoid unstable individual

2) Get the spell ingredients:
Good intention: save Mom & Jack
Result: Questionable decision to murder 'humans or land' for their heart.  Ultimately not put to the test becuase they came out as 'ready to kill you' human shaped beings made of sand. Still, "ends justify means" thinking evident.

3) Save John:
Good Intention: Save John
Result: The Apocalypse, but her kids save the day.

4) Entertain the kids
Good intention: Harmless hand puppets to entertain the kids, gooses it with a little magic to make them awesome
Result: Sent out an unintended homing signal, Angels show up and start slaughtering the encampment.

5) Get the spell, pt 2:
Good intention: Get the spell
Result: "Ends Justify Means" shorts out Donatello's brain. Cas seems a little darker.

6) Help Donatello:
Good intention: Take him to the hospital to get help
Result: He's on life support and no new prophet will be called**

7) Save Mary & the encampment: 
Good intention: Kill Zachariah who is killing Mary, take out the "incoming" Angels
Result: Encampment happy, but now everyone knows how potent he is -- Jack will either lead or be used

In short, very few things actually went they way they intended.  And it seems like things are a little more evil than they started the episode.  Of course the boys didn't know Donnie would go nuts (as Asmodeus could have made it worse).  And Jack didn't mean to put the encampment in danger.  But ultimately, if I was to pick the MAJOR "Good Intentions", it'd be Cas having the good intention of helping Sam, Dean, Jack, and Mary and starting down the 'road to hell' with his choices.

 

**I think the 'switch' Metatron flipped was to keep Kevin in the veil and thus prevent another prophet from being called.  When Kevin was sent to Heaven and Amara used some God-class-juice, Donatello was called.  I guess what I'm saying is that another prophet might eventually be called but I don't know if they "activate" until something of Biblical proportions goes down (cracking open a tablet, sending the death fart cloud into a town...).  

Good analysis.  Good intentions pave the road to Hell.

I don't think saving John was the critical good intention. 

Good intentions #1

Dean saving Sam... and I would argue that Dean recklessly sacrificing himself to save someone else when emotionally triggered is his tragic flaw and will lead to him making a deal with our Michael to get grace for the spell to open a rift and save Mary.  Dean's compulsion to do this stems from guilt over not saving Mary as a child and forms the basis of his family business mantra.  He devotes himself to saving others in response to her loss and his guilt.  These are powerful deep seated emotions and a potent trigger.  Dean has repeated this pattern throughout the series.

Good intentions #2

Sam trying to use his powers for good out of a need to prove himself /hubris.  Ruby manipulated him using his tragic flaws and Just my Imagination explorerd them beautifully including showing us the family dynamic that caused them  to develop.  Sam's dark arc relied  on him succumbing to this repeatedly including listening to Ruby,  drinking demon blood, killing Lucifer, thinking could deal with Lucifer alone.  The pattern was repeated by Carver on a smaller scale revolving around Dean as part of Sam's redemption arc.  

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

is tragic flaw and will lead to him making a deal with our Michael to get grace for the spell to open a rift and save Mary. 

How would that even work?  wouldn't he have to first open the rift in order to make a deal with Michael to get grace to open the rift, since he's on the other side?

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My theory is that every time a person really wrestles with a huge decision (and I mean huge) then the universe gets split, once where the person makes the decision one way, the other where she does it the other way.  So, the reason she didn't make the deal is that is because that is the decision she made.  She thought better of dealing with a demon.

So here's a question then, once that person who made that huge decision is no longer in that world IE dead, shouldn't that kind of reset their decision? And if the other version shows up in the other world shouldn't that reset that other timeline?

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess I still don't see a need for Dean to say yes.  Why would Michael want to possess Dean.  He seems to have a perfectly good vessel. 

Our Michael not AU Michael.  They have set Dean up to reach out to Cage Michael in subtextual and textual ways.  Most recently the close-up to Dean's face when Cas says they need archangel grace.

I am gearing up to write a road thus far "review" of sorts.  I have been mentally cataloguing the hints and deliberate parallelss since 12:1.  I am pulling it all together hence my posts whee I am talking out loud trying form a coherent theories.

They have thrown so much at us it requires more cataloguing and analysis of patterns than normal.

Frankly if this pans out, and they are definitely spending time and effort setting it up,  i will be stunned.   On one level it indicates a brilliance in the writing rhat is simply lacking everywhere else.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have set Dean up to reach out to Cage Michael in subtextual and textual ways. 

Im not sure how much help our Michael would be since they firmly established that our Michael is looney tunes.

Edited March 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Im not sure how much help our Michael would be since they firmly established that our Michael is looney tunes

Right, even Chuck couldn't help him afaIk.

[catrox14]

AU Michael would not need a vessel at all to cross over once he opens a rift. He was going to cross in the Rift that AU Kevin opened if Lucifer hadn't jumped through first.  He has no need for a vessel to get out from what I can tell.

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

How would that even work?  wouldn't he have to first open the rift in order to make a deal with Michael to get grace to open the rift, since he's on the other side?

Our Michael.  Cage Michael.  Obviously I did not make that clear.  

They have been trolling the Apocalypse since 12:1 and throwing out hints and parallels. Many of the parallels are reversed.  For instance Dean and Sam occupy different roles and Lucifer is in heaven building an army while our Michael is in the cage...

There is a lot.  I drove people crazy on imbd babbling about a new Apocalypse all last season.  And They have continued this season.  Because I missed the beginning I was confused about Gog, Magog. I read up on them and killing them is an Apocalyptic harbinger.  The guy that kills them is referred to as a messiah.  In the Apocalypse the nessiah fights Lucifer.  That is pretty damn direct. That is a bona fide anvil.

I will try to get everything together soon.  It probably means researching 12 and 12 was otherwise a snore.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Right, even Chuck couldn't help him afaIk.

Unless Chuck was lying which is possible, but right now it's an ass pull of writing if they trot out our Michael for Dean to use now. Chuck isn't around to heal him. Jack isn't around to heal him. No one is around to heal Michael so why would they use him at all? 

I would be MORE than happy if Dean was Michael and fought AU Michael but I don't think it's even going to get to that point myself. I think Dean will be doing something else.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AU Michael would not need a vessel at all to cross over once he opens a rift. He was going to cross in the Rift that AU Kevin opened if Lucifer hadn't jumped through first.  He has no need for a vessel to get out from what I can tell.

Our Michael!!!. Dean needs archangel grace and he needs to save his mother by opening  a rift. And ROWENA IS  ALIVE  to open rhe cage.The close-up on his face...he has made the connection and I think Cas may push him to do it too because Cas is full on Machiavellian.

There are loads of other hints, parallels, etc. Rhat indicate Dean!Michael.

Even before the episode aired I soec'd this.  It fits his tragic flaw and rhey gave set it up over the last two years.

I will write every thing up for a review.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Our Michael!!!. Dean needs archangel grace and he needs to save his mother by opening  a rift. And ROWENA IS  ALIVE  to open rhe cage.The close-up on his face...he has made the connection and I think Cas may push him to do it too because Cas is full on Machiavellian.

There are loads of other hints, parallels, etc. Rhat indicate Dean!Michael.

Even before the episode aired I soec'd this.  It fits his tragic flaw and rhey gave set it up over the last two years.

I will write every thing up for a review.

I talked about AW Michael and our Michael in another comment. I think maybe we were cross posting so you missed that.  I've addressed both Michaels and can't find a good case for them using Dean in either case.

It's a nice thought but IMO unlikely.  But I do admire your optimism!

Edited March 4, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless Chuck was lying which is possible, but right now it's an ass pull of writing if they trot out our Michael for Dean to use now. Chuck isn't around to heal him. Jack isn't around to heal him. No one is around to heal Michael so why would they use him at all? 

I would be MORE than happy if Dean was Michael and fought AU Michael but I don't think it's even going to get to that point myself. I think Dean will be doing something else.

Apparently our Michael is nuts.  Dean doesn't care.  He needs archangel grace to save Mary and his m.o. is to rush to sacrifice himself without thinking.  See denon deal, killing himself multiple times, taking in the MoC without caring about the fine print... 

It will happen. They have literally connected every dot... I guess high five me when it happens...

I could be wrong because I have Dean goggles but I am 99.9% sure I am right.  I am usually right about the major mytharc beats because they hint At them in a way that is legible to me.

Also it fits into my character arc theory.  8-11 focused on Sam's tragic flaw and redemption.  

12+ are focusing on Dean's tragic flaw.  Dean's is desperate self sacrifice to save others.  

So I guess we will see.

 

I will try to write up a detailed analysis . I am long

Overdue for a review.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I talked about AW Michael and our Michael in another comment. I think maybe we were cross posting so you missed that.  I've addressed both Michaels and can't find a good case for them using either one.

Lol. Just high five me when it happens.?

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless Chuck was lying which is possible, but right now it's an ass pull of writing if they trot out our Michael for Dean to use now. Chuck isn't around to heal him. Jack isn't around to heal him. No one is around to heal Michael so why would they use him at all? 

I would be MORE than happy if Dean was Michael and fought AU Michael but I don't think it's even going to get to that point myself. I think Dean will be doing something else.

Michael can heal himself in Dean if he is hurt.  I an not sure crazy can be healed  or if he would want to heal crazy.  Dean woykd not care like he did not care about the cons of the moc.

[catrox14]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

could be wrong because I have Dean goggles but I am 99.9% sure I am right

I'm about the most hardcore Dean fan you're likely to ever come across, so I don't think your Dean goggles are affecting your theory. 

I imagine you'll have a perfectly reasonable path and I still don't think the show would do it on principle.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, Ria said:

I do think there would be multiple universes out there that sprung into existence as crossroads were reached. Which is why I don’t buy that Mary necessarily made the right choice in making the deal. But I think the show is pushing the idea that without that decision, and without Sam and Dean, we’d be left with this AU apocalyptic world. 

I don’t see how two entirely different universes could parallel each other so closely without there be a mutual starting point in the recent past. 

Yes I agree.  DEAN AND SAM are what matters.

[MysteryGuest]

Doesn't Gabriel have archangel grace?  There has to be some reason they've brought his character back.  It would be rather ridiculous to pull Michael out of the cage at this point, since it's been fairly well established that he was not in the best of shape.  Now Gabriel didn't look so hot, either, but if it's just his grace that's needed, my guess is that's where it will come from.