S01.E10: The Killers

[Chicago Redshirt]

The slack/sleeve technology is an adaptation of alien tech. IIRC, Bancroft brought to his mansion some alien artifact/tree and there was a conversation about that.

It's entirely possible that I jumped to a conclusion about alien metal being involved. It's also possible that it was correct and they've just managed to get a lot of that alien metal from across the settled worlds.

[AngelKitty]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The slack/sleeve technology is an adaptation of alien tech.

Yeah, I'm sure I heard the words "alien technology" in relation to the stacks, but I can't remember who said it or why.

 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Bancroft brought to his mansion some alien artifact/tree and there was a conversation about that.

I don't remember the conversation about the tree, but I remember seeing the tree in Bancroft's mansion and seeing one on the world the Envoys were on. It reminded me of the trees in Avatar.

I'm just going to have to read the books because I'm intrigued by the "universe" this story is set in and need to know more.

[arc]

Oh yeah, it's definitely adapted from alien tech, at least as far as I understood it. But I suspect the economics don't quite work out. As in, why are stacks so affordable that everyone gets one, and needlecasting is about the only way star system travel works*, but backups are only for the super rich? The actual stacks do not seem particularly valuable. I think back in the first episode Takeshi had a bunch of stacks, and then later he somehow obtained the broken stacks of the dead Envoys** to patch together the stack-virus.

* I get the vague impression that even for colonizing new systems, humans send "colony ships" full of mindless clones that colonists needlecast into once the ships have arrived. Because needlecasting can go faster-than-light but not actual ships?
** Actually, I guess this may show there's non-needlecast FTL travel, since those Envoys died on a completely different planet.

[AngelKitty]

10 hours ago, arc said:

I get the vague impression that even for colonizing new systems, humans send "colony ships" full of mindless clones

Actually, you could just send the cloning technology with the genetic material and grow the clones when you get there.

[Clanstarling]

On 2/6/2018 at 4:39 AM, Netfoot said:

Well, I enjoyed the series, warts and all (and there were a few, let's admit).  I don't know if there are any plans for a sequel, but I think on the basis of Series #1, I would watch again.

Me too.

On 2/8/2018 at 7:58 PM, The Mighty Peanut said:

All this talk of back ups and double sleeves and ice and the real...and I’m over here like “But Poe. I only want Poe.”

I know! Poe was the best, and I was hoping Lizzy could bring him back, being so connected and all.

On 2/21/2018 at 6:32 AM, AngelKitty said:

Well, that's too bad, but I do agree that the more you think about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

I keep thinking about clones. Why would they be so expensive? I would think a society with this stack technology would work on developing and perfecting clone technology. There should be many companies in the cloning business, driving down prices.

One thing this show did for me, was to make me want to read the book and it's sequels, especially since people have said it is different.

Maybe clones are dirt cheap, but keeping them warehoused is the expensive part. Businesses find a way to profit.

[Enero]

On 2/21/2018 at 9:44 AM, MrSmith said:

I agree that clones should be just about dirt cheap. After all, the demand for them would be both extremely high and unending. 

I don’t know about this. There’s a lot of stuff in high demand nowadays that’s still very expensive ie cars, houses, healthcare etc. Thus I can understand why clones might not be inexpensive. I can see the cloning market being cornered by 2-3 companies, which leaves  the perk only available to the super rich.

Clanstarling makes a good point. Being able to purchase a clone is probably just the tip of the cost. There’s probably significant upkeep and storage required until you’re ready to use it, which again could cost a significant amount of money.

 

Quote

Even if I could live forever, why would I want to have to change to a body that looks different from my own every 80 to 100 years? (More often if I choose to remain young.) I can't imagine the difficulty in getting over the shock of looking in the mirror and not seeing your own face.

 

With people being able to live longer, population control is probably another reason why cloning is expensive. Those in charge likely drive up the cost to ensure it’s not accessible to all and thus exert some control over population growth in the process. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Enero

[Amarsir]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

I don’t know about this. There’s a lot of stuff in high demand nowadays that’s still very expensive ie cars, houses, healthcare etc. Thus I can understand why clones might not be inexpensive. I can see the cloning market being cornered by 2-3 companies, which leaves  the perk only available to the super rich.

All very labor intensive. But Kovacs was able to obtain a mobile cloning machine and have one completely made in a few hours. The best we could say is that the cost of biomaterials is prohibitive, if human cells need to be slowly and painstakingly grown before being organized into a sleeve. But it doesn't make any economic sense that society isn't organized around producing as much of those as possible.

Then there is the possibility that economics isn't allowed to be relevant because of prohibitive laws. After all, it is explicitly stated when the son's machine is found that they are are illegal. But if it's as easy as that, then black market sleeves would be far more profitable than the sex services that seemed to make up 90% of this world's economy. There's no getting around the fact that most people would want them, but they all seemed to just shrug and go "meh, what are you gonna do?"

Similarly, it's easy to accept that overpopulation would be a serious issue when one can be effectively immortal. But I don't see how that jives with a hotel that's been without customers for 50 years.  It's elements of the story that don't jive.

I think the concept of stacks and sleeves is great, and there are a ton of societal aspects that opens up, many of which were explored. But I also think the depraved, pessimistic story they wanted to tell doesn't fit well with such an invention and that's why a lot of these premises don't fit well together.

[MrSmith]

2 hours ago, Enero said:

With people being able to live longer, population control is probably another reason why cloning is expensive. Those in charge likely drive up the cost to ensure it’s not accessible to all and thus exert some control over population growth in the process. 

I can't see this being a problem since humanity has the ability to travel the stars. It seems as though, in the universe of the show, that there are many habitable, and indeed inhabited!, worlds. Not to mention how ridiculously tall some of those buildings are. Of course, that doesn't say anything about food production to feed all those people, but then we get back to the numerous other worlds to inhabit.

On a side note, I got this book for my birthday in 1986 (immediately after it came out) and I would go to the theatre to see a movie version of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago:_a_Myth_of_the_Far_Future

[AngelKitty]

7 hours ago, Amarsir said:

But Kovacs was able to obtain a mobile cloning machine and have one completely made in a few hours.

But is the 3D body copying machine the same as cloning? Hmm, I guess it is, but that instant body machine just seems, to me, like magic rather than science simply because of the biomaterials necessary. However, I am certainly willing to suspend my disbelief for the sake of the story since Kovacs needed that extra body in a hurry.

 

6 hours ago, MrSmith said:

On a side note, I got this book for my birthday in 1986 (immediately after it came out) and I would go to the theatre to see a movie version of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago:_a_Myth_of_the_Far_Future

Oh my, thank you for reminding me about Mike Resnick. I read a lot of his books back then. But for stories about regenerated bodies and consciousness transfers I recommend Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth series.

[Netfoot]

54 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

But is the 3D body copying machine the same as cloning?

I would have to say NO.  We are told that clones are horribly expensive.  Perhaps 3D printed sleeves are less expensive, but also less desirable for some reason?  

I think for those who are not wealthy, the choice of replacement sleeve is limited to 'real' sleeves.  The bodies of people who no longer need their original body due to various reasons, like being incarcerated, undergoing deep-space travel, or who have voluntarily gone into suspended sleep for legal or financial reasons, etc.

[CaptainTightpants]

12 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I would have to say NO.  We are told that clones are horribly expensive.  Perhaps 3D printed sleeves are less expensive, but also less desirable for some reason?  

In the scene where Kovacs and Ortega discover the printer in Isaac's house her comment was "do you have any idea how expensive and illegal these are?!" And then they figure out that Isaac was selling what I assume would be billions of dollars of artwork to finance printing the clone of Bancroft. (I recognized some of the paintings and they would be worth hundreds of millions to billions of dollars even in today's market). And she mentions that "even Bancroft slow-grows his clones."

So for whatever reason, 3D printing clones is prohibitively expensive even for meths. Ortega observed that printing that one copy of his father must have cost Isaac everything that he had. I have to assume the illegal part must have something to do with the ability to copy other people without their consent or knowledge. 

[Netfoot]

2 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I have to assume the illegal part must have something to do with the ability to copy other people without their consent or knowledge. 

That sounds reasonable.

[AngelKitty]

43 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

The bodies of people who no longer need their original body due to various reasons, like being incarcerated, undergoing deep-space travel, or who have voluntarily gone into suspended sleep for legal or financial reasons, etc.

That really is kind of creepy: that you have to allow other people to use your body while you're incarcerated, but that's probably how they finance storing all those bodies. And how would that work? What if someone has your body for years so it's older when you get it back? That doesn't seem fair. I'd rather get a new body, preferably thin and blond. Hah, I'm definitely thinking way too much about this.

[Netfoot]

5 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

What if someone has your body for years so it's older when you get it back?

You don't necessarily get back the "sleeve" that you walked in with.  And what you get depends on what you pay.  That's why Eva Elliot ended up in the body of a man -- they couldn't afford a better choice, and had to take what ever was available within their budget.

[AngelKitty]

5 hours ago, Netfoot said:

You don't necessarily get back the "sleeve" that you walked in with.  And what you get depends on what you pay.  That's why Eva Elliot ended up in the body of a man -- they couldn't afford a better choice, and had to take what ever was available within their budget.

Budget wasn't an issue with Ava's body since Kovacs was paying. With her, it was because it was a last minute, under the table deal to get her mind with her computer knowledge. They showed at the end, she had her own body back.

The budget issue came up with the little girl who's real body died and her new sleeve was an adult woman.

[AngelKitty]

I just got notice my reserved copy of this book is ready for me at the library. I'm very excited to delve more deeply into this world.

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

I just got notice my reserved copy of this book is ready for me at the library. I'm very excited to delve more deeply into this world.

Thinking about reserving it today. :)

[wanderingstar]

Just finished watching this and overall found it meh. After 10 episodes, I just didn't care about any of the characters.

Things I did like/enjoy:

• Lizzie laying waste to Head in the Clouds
• Kristin Ortega - such a badly written character, but I still enjoyed Martha Higareda's performance
• The Elliots surviving the big battle
• Poe's death

I will say, watching this made me appreciate my SyFy shows - 12 Monkeys, Killjoys, Dark Matter (RIP) - all the more. For all the criticism SyFy gets of its shows, they at least know how to do world building and create characters I can get invested in.

[rove4]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 6:15 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

My hopes for season 2 are pretty much that Will Yun Lee gets to play Kovacs. And that he reunites with Falconer and they go ninja on everybody

It's funny how different people's reactions can be.  This is the exactly the recipe that would get me to not watch a second season.  Those actors had zero chemistry to me, of any kind so not just limiting that to the romantic/sexual variety.  Plus, the whole Envoy storyline was a total bore IMO.  Now if they brought back JK as Kovacs (would obviously have to find a reason for him to keep Ryker's sleeve - though Ryker never seemed all that stable to me in his flashback scenes) and also brought back Vernon and Ortega (because I did like her), I'd be 100% on board.  Finding a way to bring back Poe is a given.   Then the four of them could continue to plumb the underbelly of this dystopian Bay City.

I was much more satisfied with the way Miriam's story worked out in the show than I was in the books.

I didn't buy that the lawyer lady suddenly cared about finding her humanity.  Getting revenge on the Bancrofts, yes.  Reconnecting with her inner goodness, nope.

Is it a certainty that original Kovacs survived and not the clone?  I wish they'd found a better way to differentiate between the two other than clone wearing the coat in the debriefing scene and original Kovacs going coatless...because then the Kovacs who shows up at Ortega's place is wearing the coat and even though he says he's the one she said goodbye to...

I'll probably rewatch the show at some point but I'll be fast-forwarding through all the Quell flashbacks.

[shrewd.buddha]

For myself, I appreciated that the series wrapped up all its stories in the final episode. That was refreshing. So few series - and movies - seem to want to have a final act anymore. 

It also opened the series to the possibility of a whole new cast of actors, which could be interesting. I wouldn't mind that, either. They did keep insisting that those body 'sleeves' were easily changed.  
A new mystery, new villains, new actor for the main character and new supporting cast? I'm good with that. 

[blackwing]

I finally sloughed through the end of this season and unfortunately I found it a chore.  I would have been satisfied with a traditional whodunit mystery.  I did appreciate the world building but I really couldn't care less about the sister or Ortega.  If they had stuck to the main plot of discovering who killed Bancroft, with maybe a side of what happened to Lizzie, I think it would have liked it more.  I felt like the sister and that strange assassin guy of hers was just a little too out there.

Not sure if I will be back for the next season.  I know that Anthony Mackie was cast as Kovacs.  Ortega mentioned something to Kovacs about returning Ryker's sleeve.  Does this mean the actor who played Kovacs in Season 1 will be back in Season 2 as Ryker?

[AngelKitty]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, blackwing said:

Does this mean the actor who played Kovacs in Season 1 will be back in Season 2 as Ryker?

Spoiler

I would say no since the second book takes place on a different planet hundreds of years after the events of the first so all those characters are dead.

 

Although I could not get through the second book, I will try the new season.

[Ottis]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, blackwing said:

I did appreciate the world building but I really couldn't care less about the sister or Ortega.  If they had stuck to the main plot of discovering who killed Bancroft, with maybe a side of what happened to Lizzie, I think it would have liked it more.  I felt like the sister and that strange assassin guy of hers was just a little too out there.

{Spongebob voiceover] "Two ... years ... later ..."

So when it became apparent around ep 6 that this show was going to spend too much time on "characters" and not enough on the implications of this fascinating idea of stacks and reincarnation, I started skipping forward. But I did watch this final ep, and yeah, they had some amazing worldbuilding to work with and came up with ... this. 

- I never warmed to Lizzy. I wasn't even exactly sure who she was and why we cared, aside from she had parents.

- The sister was the traitor because she didn't want anyone to have her brother. That might have worked if they pushed further and showed a disturbingly close relationship, but they didn't, do it was just a crazy sister. Which wasn't that exciting.

- I *did* like the weirdo henchman assassin guy.

Agree, they should have stuck with the film noir angle of solving the crime, and left out crazy sister and most of Lizzy. It was all over the place, and after a while I only cared about the occasional discussions around the impact of stacks (death has no meaning, humans who live so long get weird and bored, why "going on ice" matters - aren't people unconscious?, etc.).