Ant-Man and The Wasp (2018)

[Raja]

 Of the villians Tooms/Vulture. On TV the Framework version of Fitz's dad. Blackbolt's parents in the Inhumans IMAX 

[Bruinsfan]

Pitting your kids against each other to see who grows up to be the most deadly assassin and shedding a tear after sacrificing your favorite in return for ultimate power doesn't win you a #1 Dad mug in my book. Thanos barely outdoes Ego in that competition.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[Dandesun]

Yeah, I hope the Thanos mention was sarcastic. What he did to Nebula alone... and considering that he murdered half of Gamora's planet (including her mother) and that's how he got 'his favorite.' Plus, Gamora was right. That wasn't love. So yeah, Thanos can jump up his own ass and die.

We didn't see anything of Sarah Rogers but she was a nurse who raised Steve alone and brought him up to be... you know... Steve. So I'd put her on the list of 'good parents.' Plus, Steve looked absolutely devastated after her funeral. But, from what we've seen... Scott outstrips them all by far. I mean, the bit with Cassie wanting to be his partner? "Oh peanut... you'd be awesome! And if I let you, I'd be a terrible Dad." And then when she told him to help Hope... "I don't know how I can help her without hurting you."

Scott's the best.

This movie did a hell of a job building up reunions of characters we barely even knew, too. Janet's reunions with both Hank and Hope were just beautifully heart-breaking. I've cried every damn time. Hank and Hope were estranged for the bulk of Ant-Man but the writing was there and they got three actors who absolutely made you believe in this small family unit and how having Janet back was everything. Michelle Pfeiffer could probably stub her toe and I'd cry in sympathy because she's just got that expressive face but they really did a hell of a job with the Pym-Van Dyne dynamic.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Dandesun

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

Yeah, I hope the Thanos mention was sarcastic. What he did to Nebula alone... and considering that he murdered half of Gamora's planet (including her mother) and that's how he got 'his favorite.' Plus, Gamora was right. That wasn't love. So yeah, Thanos can jump up his own ass and die.

Yea I wasn't mentioning Thanos as any kind of great dad only as a dad the poster I was quoting didn't mention. He is probably the worst but only barely edging out Ego and Odin, what with Ego killing most of his kids and trying to wipe out as many people as Thanos, and Odin for murdering a bunch of people with his daughter, then getting tired of her and banishing her, only to leave his sons to clean up his mess after he couldn't be bothered to live any more.

But yes Scott is the best. That cardboard ant tunnel thing was awesome and something I totally with I had the time and skills to make.

[CTrent29]

Hank and Hope were wanted for Conspiracy to violate the Sokovian Accords by providing super tech to Scott Lang.

 

Neither Scott, Hank or Hope had ever signed the Sokovia Accords, which is an agreement and NOT a law.  And this means they should not have been held accountable to the Accords.  Also, Hank allowed Scott to use the suit before the Sokovia Accords were ever written or ratified.  Neither Hank or Hope knew that Scott had used the suit in Berlin.  Scott should have been held accountable for breaking his parole, not in violating an agreement that he had never signed.l

 

Do the MCU writers even know the difference between an accord and a law? 

[Kel Varnsen]

The idea behind signing the accords is that you agree to follow their rules in exchange for being allowed to be a super hero. Acting as a super hero already (or even getting into a crazy fight at an airport) already breaks a bunch of laws. And typically helping someone break the law is against the law.

[Raja]

So Scott Lang broke German law and destroyed a very expensive jet among other things and pleaded out for house arrest at home. Better than back to San Quentin or a supermax submarine prison by a long shot.

To paraphrase the Hydra senator Hank Pym is in trouble for giving up the Ant-Man weapon. But then it was developed for an international and defunct S.H.I.E.L.D 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Raja
fighting the autofill

[HunterHunted]

On 11/28/2018 at 4:39 PM, CTrent29 said:

Hank and Hope were wanted for Conspiracy to violate the Sokovian Accords by providing super tech to Scott Lang.

 

Neither Scott, Hank or Hope had ever signed the Sokovia Accords, which is an agreement and NOT a law.  And this means they should not have been held accountable to the Accords.  Also, Hank allowed Scott to use the suit before the Sokovia Accords were ever written or ratified.  Neither Hank or Hope knew that Scott had used the suit in Berlin.  Scott should have been held accountable for breaking his parole, not in violating an agreement that he had never signed.l

 

Do the MCU writers even know the difference between an accord and a law? 

The writers probably don't know the difference between an accord and a law. However, one of the implied stipulations of signing an accord or international agreement is that the member nations will take steps to operationalize that agreement in their country. This might take the form of a new law, revisions to an existing law, new or revised administrative rules, an executive order, making adherence to certain provisions of the Accords as a condition of acceptance federal funds, or issuing government or best practice guidelines. So I can see the government making the superheroes sign some half-assed letter of intent, which only includes the outline of what they expect of superheroes and to be replaced by a fully fleshed agreement to come later. Even if the US never managed to pass or revise laws or rules, what often happens is that the Justice Department will figure out a kludge to address and prosecute the issue until the laws and administrative rules are actually developed. An example of this is that when sexting became "a thing," AGs from around the country started prosecuting the kids who were taking nudes of themselves and those who were sharing those nudes with a bunch of other students with all manner of sex crimes hoping that it would be a deterrent.

[CTrent29]

On 12/2/2018 at 8:42 PM, HunterHunted said:

The writers probably don't know the difference between an accord and a law. However, one of the implied stipulations of signing an accord or international agreement is that the member nations will take steps to operationalize that agreement in their country. This might take the form of a new law, revisions to an existing law, new or revised administrative rules, an executive order, making adherence to certain provisions of the Accords as a condition of acceptance federal funds, or issuing government or best practice guidelines. So I can see the government making the superheroes sign some half-assed letter of intent, which only includes the outline of what they expect of superheroes and to be replaced by a fully fleshed agreement to come later. Even if the US never managed to pass or revise laws or rules, what often happens is that the Justice Department will figure out a kludge to address and prosecute the issue until the laws and administrative rules are actually developed. An example of this is that when sexting became "a thing," AGs from around the country started prosecuting the kids who were taking nudes of themselves and those who were sharing those nudes with a bunch of other students with all manner of sex crimes hoping that it would be a deterrent.

 

But this was never addressed.  Not in any of the MCU movies or televisions shows.  I'm aware of this, because someone else had brought this up.  And even if the Sokovia Accords was a law, it was never called that.  It was never called "a Law" or "an Act".  And the whole thing is unconstitutional, which should have been brought up numerous times, but barely was.  As far as I know, only Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson and James Rhodes brought this up . . . and briefly.  The topic was never really fully explored.

 

The problem I have with the Sokovia Accords in the MCU is that it was badly handled from the start.  I had heard a rumor that the third Captain America originally had a different plot.  But when the Marvel/Disney suits heard about Warner Bros's plans for "Batman v. Superman", they had decided to use the civil war plot for "Cap 3" in the end.  They turned a solo Captain America movie into an Avengers film and Chris Evans got robbed of his third solo film.  A Captain America movie with Iron Man as the co-lead?  I was so disgusted when I watched all of this unfold.  Worse, the chaotic plotline, along with the franchise's handling of the Sokovia Accords in "Agents of SHIELD", "Jessica Jones" Season 2, and "Ant-Man & the Wasp" only deepened my disgust.

 

Quote

To paraphrase the Hydra senator Hank Pym is in trouble for giving up the Ant-Man weapon. But then it was developed for an international and defunct S.H.I.E.L.D 

 

The Ant-Man suit belonged to Hank.  And when he had refused to hand it over to SHIELD or give them the technology, there was nothing they could do.  And that was back in the 1980s.

Edited December 4, 2018 by CTrent29

[Raja]

25 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

 

But this was never addressed.  Not in any of the MCU movies or televisions shows.  I'm aware of this, because someone else had brought this up.  And even if the Sokovia Accords was a law, it was never called that.  It was never called "a Law" or "an Act".  And the whole thing is unconstitutional, which should have been brought up numerous times, but barely was.  As far as I know, only Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson and James Rhodes brought this up . . . and briefly.  The topic was never really fully explored.

 

The problem I have with the Sokovia Accords in the MCU is that it was badly handled from the start.  I had heard a rumor that the third Captain America originally had a different plot.  But when the Marvel/Disney suits heard about Warner Bros's plans for "Batman v. Superman", they had decided to use the civil war plot for "Cap 3" in the end.  They turned a solo Captain America movie into an Avengers film and Chris Evans got robbed of his third solo film.  A Captain America movie with Iron Man as the co-lead?  I was so disgusted when I watched all of this unfold.  Worse, the chaotic plotline, along with the franchise's handling of the Sokovia Accords in "Agents of SHIELD", "Jessica Jones" Season 2, and "Ant-Man & the Wasp" only deepened my disgust.

 

 

The Ant-Man suit belonged to Hank.  And when he had refused to hand it over to SHIELD or give them the technology, there was nothing they could do.  And that was back in the 1980s.

Everything reminds me of The Wire. ;) You just reminded me of D'Angelo talking about whoever developed the McNuggets  and them not getting a percentage from McDonald's. Pym might claim the Ant-Man weapon as his alone but I bet others like the Hydra Senator Stern had other ideals. Only the FBI's failure to capture him stopped the courts from ultimately deciding if the "Ant-Man weapon" and attendant  Pym Particle was a US/SHIELD weapon or a private citizen's research,.

 

Scott Lang's punishment for his crimes in Germany is the one that you can write off without the accords. Beyond the Yo-Yo YouTube series showing a character actually registering under the accords and Daisy/Quake being a fugitive before Director Mace covering for her  by claiming she was undercover for S.H.I.E.L.D. I am trying to remember what else they did on Agents of SHIELD to work the accords into their story.

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

But this was never addressed.  Not in any of the MCU movies or televisions shows.  I'm aware of this, because someone else had brought this up.  And even if the Sokovia Accords was a law, it was never called that.  It was never called "a Law" or "an Act".  And the whole thing is unconstitutional, which should have been brought up numerous times, but barely was.  As far as I know, only Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson and James Rhodes brought this up . . . and briefly.  The topic was never really fully explored.

My point isn't that Marvel did a great job addressing the Sokovia Accords and how they were operationalized. They clearly didn't. My point was that even in Marvel's grossly incompetent storytelling, there are enough real world outs and end runs around their mistakes to fix what Marvel screwed up. Additionally, the lack of description and fleshed out discussion of these issues only helps Marvel if they want to elaborate on issues that should have been made clear from the jump.

One of my biggest issues is that parts of the storytelling is so muddled that it makes the Accords too confusing to unpack. At various times, the Accords are described like the Mutant Registration Act. You have to tell the government who you are and then you're given permission to hero. At other times, it's described as an oversight group that will decide when and where superheroes can be deployed to stop cataclysmic events. These are not the same things. The Accords seem more like an international agreement than a treaty. Treaties have to be ratified by the Senate. International Agreements do not and can be entered into with an executive agreement. These have the same force of law as an executive order.

Furthermore, some of my earlier comments in the Civil War thread and the MCU thread have discussed how Civil War does not understand sovereignty at all. Like not in the least.* The aftermath of the Lagos incident is framed as if it's an attack on Wakanda. It wasn't and it couldn't have been unless that building was an embassy (I don't believe it was). However, the actual country whose actual sovereign borders and authority were violated was Nigeria and the movie never says shit about them. And yes Wakandans died, but no one ever sees fit to turn to the Avengers, a private group that still has fairly close ties to the US government and military, and say "You idiots could have started a fucking war by illegally entering a country and planning a covert military/police action without asking permission or informing anyone in the Nigerian government."

Additionally, like ten minutes later the film does the same thing again when trying to capture Bucky in Bucharest. Sam says for reasons unknown to anyone that German police are there in Romania to capture Bucky and that's just not how any of that works in the real world. Romania law enforcement would absolutely be involved and maybe even leading the strike team, while certain German government officials would be there to observe and assist in necessary. It's even more insane because the bombing was in Austria not Germany. The only reason that German police are participating in the raid is a narrative shortcut because all of the captured individuals will end up in Berlin in the next scene, as opposed to the Hague in the Netherlands. German police shouldn't have been there in the first place.

As to whether detaining any of these individuals is unconstitutional, I think that's a little bit iffy. If the Accords are an international agreement that the president has agreed to through an executive agreement, then the US government can start implementing them using whatever powers lie in the executive branch. If we also assume that the US in the MCU has developed similarly to the US in the real world, reviewing the US Citizens as Enemy or Unlawful Combatants justification is a solid indication about why the attempted detention of the Pyms, Cap, and Widow and the actual detention of Falcon and Wanda may not be unconstitutional. Nearly every statute cited in the real world guidance preceded 9/11 by decades and in some cases more than a hundred years. These laws were still on the books and hadn't been repealed or superseded. All that was needed to allow the president to activate these powers was a Congressional resolution authorizing the president to use military force with an invocation of the War Powers Resolution. This authorized the executive branch to detain US Citizens for lots of things and curtail their rights. It's also pretty easy to imagine that the MCU version of Congress might have passed a similar resolution based on all of the weird crazy stuff they'd witnessed during the past 8 years, but especially the Hydra threat, which actually rears its head in 4ish very important moments in the MCU:

1. The fall of SHIELD in CA: Winter Soldier, which shows a formerly reliable and integral part of US intelligence and defense revealed to be completely unreliable and willing to sabotage US interests. 
2. Iron Man 3 where AIM creates a fake terrorist threat and manages to orchestrate an attempted coup of the US government and SHIELD isn't around to do anything about it.
3. Age of Ultron where Tony's dumb fuckery creates a murder robot. The absence of SHIELD means that the Avengers have to chase Ultron to many points across the globe including Seoul, Johannesburg, and Sokovia and cause massive amounts of damage. Remnants of SHIELD only show up for clean up and do some first responder work.
4. Iron Man 2 where a government defense contractor is clearly working with a criminal and terrorist. SHIELD never does shit about that. And Ant-Man where Darren Cross is openly willing to sell the Yellow Jacket technology to Hydra. Had SHIELD still been major players, that shouldn't have happened either.

So yeah, I can see Congress passing that resolution. Additionally as a former important member of SHIELD, Hank Pym probably already had some super-restrictive covenant with the US government and SHIELD about the use and distribution of his Ant-Man and Pym particles technology.

My point isn't that I think Marvel did a great job explaining ANY of this. My point is that maybe through luck and a tiny bit of intuition that Marvel happened upon a result that is actually realistic and conforms with what would have happened if they had done all of the requisite research or included these points in the movies.

*Ross gives Tony directives to stop Steve and Bucky with no discussion of the UN, the Accords, or ratifying nations. There is no discussion about which sovereign borders Tony might have to violate again and it's fucking ridiculous. The US Secretary of State cannot authorize US Citizens to cross foreign borders (Germany and Russia in this case) to effect a US police action. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Dee]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

*Ross gives Tony directives to stop Steve and Bucky with no discussion of the UN, the Accords, or ratifying nations.

Ross gives Tony carte blanche to capture Steve, Sam & Bucky but he never utters one word to T'Challa who spends the majority of his time in the film acting as a vigilante.

Mor does it touch on any culpability for any of Tony's co-horts. If Wanda is a 'weapon of mass destruction,' then Viz should be dismantled ASAP.

[starri]

13 minutes ago, Dee said:

he never utters one word to T'Challa who spends the majority of his time in the film acting as a vigilante.

T'Challa is the (apparently absolute) monarch of a sovereign country, and presumably has diplomatic immunity.  Not to mention that Sam, Bucky, and Steve are all American citizens.

[HunterHunted]

22 minutes ago, starri said:

T'Challa is the (apparently absolute) monarch of a sovereign country, and presumably has diplomatic immunity.  Not to mention that Sam, Bucky, and Steve are all American citizens.

The one thing I've always liked about Marvel, maybe not the MCU, is that this exact issue has always been a problem for the Avengers, Fantastic Four, SHIELD, and what have you with respect to Doctor Doom. He is absolutely a dangerous genius supervillain, but also a monarch of a sovereign nation and that's always going to present real problems when trying to bring him to justice unless these groups get into the business of psy ops, covertly arming dissidents, and regime change. A country can eject all of the diplomats from a country, eject the entire diplomatic and consular mission, or just learn to eat bitter. I think, prior to Civil War, many countries wouldn't have had a huge issue expelling Wakandan diplomats or the Wakandan diplomatic and consular missions because they were so isolationist that it probably seemed essentially useess to try to placate a country that seemingly brought nothing to the table.

[Sandman]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:36 AM, VCRTracking said:

Love Randall Park as Agent Woo.

Is it super-wrong (or only a little bit wrong) that I kind of want them to be friends for real now?

[Hiyo]

Who knew that a movie about Ant-Man and the Wasp would be so enjoyable? I definitely liked it more than the first movie (which I enjoyed as well) and am looking forward to the next one.