S13.E11: Breakdown

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

If I remember right, wasn't Doug originally a huge dick to Donna? I seem to remember him putting her down about her weight and eventually didn't Jodie tell him off? I was confused about the character suddenly being a nice guy who was still close friends with Donna.

Like @DittyDotDot said that was a different Doug.  Rude Doug was in Hibbing 911.  Nice Doug was in Plush.  And they even had some dialogue about how she didn't want to date him, or whatever, specifically because he had the same name as her ex-husband.

[ahrtee]

Just a question about the title:  I was assuming it was about Donna and breaking her away from sheriffing and into monster-hunting (and, more literally I guess it could be the "breaking down" of people into their parts for monster chow), but do you think it's the beginning of an upcoming SL of a full breakdown for Sam?  Just curious.

[gonzosgirrl]

Not gonna lie, when Dean drew out the machete and told the creeper-vamp to 'bring it', I may have peed a little.

I think Perez is the worst, but I do appreciate that we got some badass Dean and big-brother Dean back this episode.

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just a question about the title:  I was assuming it was about Donna and breaking her away from sheriffing and into monster-hunting (and, more literally I guess it could be the "breaking down" of people into their parts for monster chow), but do you think it's the beginning of an upcoming SL of a full breakdown for Sam?  Just curious.

I Presumed it's in reference to the Kurt Russell film in which his wife goes missing after their car breaks down and she goes for help.. He kind of flips out trying to find her. I think it's meant to address the car being down and the Donna looking for her along with Sam I guess breaking down as well.

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Donna should know that she doesn't need to say anything like "I know this isn't up your usual alley", she's pretty much a Winchester, Sam and Dean are going to help her out no matter what. 

I found it complete realistic. It's a routine example of the "women apologize all the time" 'thing".  I call it "thing" because it's not something most are proud of but it's deeply ingrained and hard to freakin' remove even if you know you shouldn't have to apologize.  [Note: I do it. I know I don't have to, but I do it too.] I don't know if Davey Perez did that on purpose but a routine missing persons case without the Supernatural is NOT the boys regular gig -- so, a lead in like that lets then know she understands she is asking for something different but wants their help anyway and yes, she's worried she's overstepping so if she didn't say "I'm sorry", it was definitely implied in her tone. In short, good characterization of realistically how Donna would ask.  Being KickAss does not free you from this "thing." 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I really hope it's something crazy like going through the rift does something to a person or that maybe there are alternate versions of everyone and they have been replaced by doppelgangers. I'm sure that will 100% NOT be the case but here we are LOL

No that was Doug 1.0. In Plush Doug 2.0 came along. That's why I've been calling him Doug 2.0. Two different guys, same name.

When I first read this, I was thinking it was a description of Doug.  As in he was soft and cuddly.  "Plush Doug".  Took me a second to figure out you were talking about the episode. But now, I don't care, I'm going to forever think of him as "Plush Doug" .. as in soft and cuddly.   

 

Onto Sam's current funk.  Well, my first thought is... it's about time.  He's a few years younger than Dean and even though we've seen them experience the same hunting stories, Dean actually never took a break from hunting (except the Lisa year).  

Edited January 26, 2018 by SueB

[SueB]

Carrying on my Sam logic  (I had to break up my post into two parts because of the quotes from the last page).

Why it makes sense now:  Kaia.  In Sam's mind (which doesn't have to be EVERYONE's perspective): Kaia is dead because Dean forced her to come with them.  And it's Sam's fault that he didn't stop Dean from forcing her at gun point.  All Sam can see is a repeat of the Kevin situation.  Kevin trusted the Winchesters and the Winchesters got them dead.  Sam even STATED "he's not going to get out of this" when they picked Kevin up at the start of S8.  He had a moment of clarity then and still followed the "let's close the gates of Hell plan" because he was feeling so guilty about not looking for Dean.  Don't get me wrong, Sam wanted the gates of Hell closed as well, but his instinct was to protect someone he felt should not be put in danger.  Kaia didn't want to help them but got stuck and used her gifts to get them away from the Angels.  Because they forced her to.

Things Sam WILL ignore:
- Kaia, like Kevin, was already at risk before the decision to encourage/force them to continue to participate came.  Kevin because he was a prophet (which in Winchester logic is partially their fault because they cracked open the tablet "Kevin safety is on us."- Dean Winchester. Yes, they know (logically) that the Leviathans would have likely opened the tablet and got Kevin anyway but that doesn't hold water for the sons of John Winchester.  Once they became responsible for Kevin's safety, everything after was their fault (Winchester logic).  Kaia was risk because Jack wanted her so he could get Mary back (and make Sam and Dean proud and happy).  So because Jack was motivated by Sam and Dean, and Sam and Dean have assumed responsibility for Jack -- Kaia being at risk is their fault too.  Even worse, Sam was the one to try and logicaly teach Jack to use his powers for good.  So let's double down on Sam's guilt. 
- Kaia CHOSE to jump back into that rift to find them.  Sam's mind: well that just proves she's a good person.  She knew the lay of the land and decided to help because she could.  If we hadn't forced her to open that rift (by taking her at gunpoint), she wouldn't have felt the need to help.  

 

So why NOW?  Well, I think Sam's extraordinary ability to compartmentalize is finally failing him.  That's both a good and bad thing.  A bad thing because Sam's ability to compartmentalize was how he put those thought of guilt and pain in a box and continued to 'get the job done'.  A good thing because the extreme compartmentalization he has always shown is ultimately not healthy.  "Hunter Sam" was always able to accept that bad shit happens to good people and move on. "Empathy Sam" was always able to understand and appreciate people's pain without putting it onto himself.  "Moral Sam" was the one to cause him to pull up from going into "Obsessive Sam" everytime Dean got at extreme risk (Dean in Hell, Demon Dean in the wind, MoC Dean looking at a bleak future).  S11 was a watershed year in which both Sam and Dean decided they would stop risking the world for each other.  And then came Mary.  And now that they know Mary is in extreme peril and pain, what's the FIRST thing they do?  They get Kaia killed (remember... SAM logic is not necessarily audience logic... this is how it is playing out in Sam's mind).  

So, I think the timing is now because they briefly went back into "Obsessive" mode to get Mary and Kaia got killed.  And Mary and Jack are still at risk.  And Sam is JONESING to go back into Obsessive Mode but knows he can't and.... he can't compartmentalize away what he needs to do next.  Because he's seeing things more clearly than he did prior to S11.  And oh... let's add on... Sam is really torn up by not taking advantage of getting to know Mary.  He should have KNOWN (in Sam's mind) that time with her would likely be fleeting.  And he missed it.  And it's gutting him.  And now that she's in pain and he can go get her, he has no way....  

So he's a little overwhelmed by all of it and this thing with Donna, while he knows is important, is not helping him find Mom.  And in addition to be depressed and annoyed, he got a little sloppy and got knocked out by Saw!Demon.  So... yeah, Sam's headspace in not in a good place IMO.

 

Again, just cause I think Sam THINKS this way doesn't mean I agree with him.  I just think we've built up to this "Breakdown" for 13 years.   

[SueB]

Now what actually surprised me is that DEAN wasn't foaming at the mouth to go find his Mom.  I'm going to fanwank that since Kaia think Jack went to AU, Dean feels like Jack would be capable of protecting Mary.  Dean has always had this odd blind spot regarding Cas and his abiliites.  When Cas is fully powered, he's like Superman to Dean.  Can can just fix it.  And he's kind of in awe of that.  I think he's conferred that same blindspot to Jack.  Jack might have some weaknesses (like Angel radio) but Dean has now adopted Jack. Jack has gone to great lengths to find Mary.  And he's went to the AU to save her.  Mary and Jack may not be 'safe', but I suspect Dean feels better that Jack is with Mary and so the urgency had gone down a notch.  Yes, that means he took Kaia's "I think Jack is in the other place" as fact.  But this is the only reason I think Dean is not back to obessive mode.  

[Aeryn13]

Having enjoyed a little hiatus from the show, this wasn`t a bad episode to come back to. Davy Perez has improved a lot this year. 

I was gobsmacked that Dean having been a vampire was even referenced, even though it was just for expositional purposes. 

Donna was more than the usual perky comic relief and got some nice depth during the episode. Her phone call in the car early on was pretty emotional and well-acted.

Dean got the kill and wasn`t in need of any saving. First episode of the Season for that? I think so. He even got a save. Hooray. Too bad they couldn`t work in any badass scenes but reportedly the previous idea of vampires on a train was too expensive.  

The case itself here reminded me of several Criminal Minds episodes.

I didn`t think Sam suddenly getting the depression-flu worked organically. Sure, life has given him ample reason to develop it but after Dean in the first half of the Season, it felt more like "okay, now we`re doing it with Sam". Now, compared to other kinds of stories, handing the mope-stuff off to other characters doesn`t bug me one bit. Like, please, take it and never return it to Dean but that`s because I`m supremely uninterested in that stuff. So having it multiple times in one Season doesn`t help. They just better not be breaking out the kid gloves compared to Dean, that would bug me. 

Overall, I thought this was an enjoyable, inoffensive MOTW episode. Which is high praise in my book these days.  

[sarthaz]

Totally loved this episode.  It's been a long time since our show felt like our show, but this episode could have fit in any season.  I don't recall being this engaged in a stand-alone episode in quite some time.  It kinda limped to the finish line, with the boys not realizing it was obviously the FBI guy and Doug bailing because he doesn't fit in the spin-off-that-wont-last, but the first half of the episode was tightly constructed and well executed, and they elevated Donna without making Sam/Dean look like idiots.  It's far more empowering that way.  I thought Donna was a weak link in the failed-backdoor-pilot, but Bri knocked it out of the park here.

Edited January 26, 2018 by sarthaz

[catrox14]

Fun fact: The guy with the beard that was the window washer played the street preacher outside the motel in THE END who asked Dean if he had thought God. 

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Donna was more than the usual perky comic relief and got some nice depth during the episode. Her phone call in the car early on was pretty emotional and well-acted.

I really never thought Donna was comic relief. I always thought her depth showed in s9 and s10. That she had layers beneath her veneer. She tried to look on the optimistic side of things. I felt like this was right in line with Donna just making her have more personal angst. But that's just me.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Fun fact: The guy with the beard that was the window washer played the street preacher outside the motel in THE END who asked Dean if he had thought God. 

I'm going to go with it's the same character, too.  Because I can.  Also, Wendy was Chloe in Party On Garth.

[ahrtee]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

I just think we've built up to this "Breakdown" for 13 years.   

I think Sam has a right to a breakdown.  What I don't think works is why now, why all of a sudden, especially with no advance warning (we could see Dean going downhill over *years,* not just one episode, and we saw him fighting it (and losing.)  Sam was outwardly fine up until this ep (though, thinking back, maybe his refusing to eat the lizard was the beginning...) :)  I just don't think it works *in the context it's written.* 

So blame the writers for being too abrupt.  Blame them for not showing more of Sam's mindset earlier.  Blame Jared for not giving body language clues before this (though I think it's because the writers just pulled it out of their ass for a new arc--like we need one, in between all the plates in the air plotwise). 

So, yeah, I can understand the idea behind it, but I don't think the execution worked *at all.*  Besides, since they've been going on for 13 years about how Sam and Dean are different (especially in their emotional reactions) there's no reason to think that Sam would react *exactly* like Dean has been.  Have some kind of emotional reaction?  Sure.  That's what most fans (at least the ones with sympathy towards Sam) believe about his season 8 fiasco.  Going into the "this is going to end bloody.  There's no point to it.  We've lost everyone"?  That's Dean.  Give Sam his own kind of breakdown.  Or at least let him explain it in his own way.  

[AwesomO4000]

51 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Kaia CHOSE to jump back into that rift to find them.  Sam's mind: well that just proves she's a good person.  She knew the lay of the land and decided to help because she could.  If we hadn't forced her to open that rift (by taking her at gunpoint), she wouldn't have felt the need to help.  

But they didn't force Kaia to go through the rift that time, and she died saving Claire, not Sam and Dean. Sam has no idea what made Kaia decide to go through the rift to save him, so for me, it seems odd that he would assume she decided because of something that he and Dean did the first rime.

While I agree that Sam is due a breakdown, I myself just didn't see it as well set up here at all. And add on to that, we're back to season 1 "we have to find Dad (Mom, Jack)" over the safety of everyone else, and I'm a bit annoyed at what seems is Sam's once again character regression. For me, since the Carver era, there aren't too many Sam positive character traits left, so taking away his hopeful attitude - what happened to the fairly recent "you don't see yourself finding someone in the business to have a future with" to Dean? - computer abilities, hunting abilities, and kindness to others, they aren't leaving Sam with much, in my opinion.

After last season's weird Sam turn around "Let's join the BMoL, yay!" midseason, just to have him have to admit he was wrong and apologize, I'm not looking forward to another Sam learning a very special lesson again this season for plot purposes. Again.

And I understand and appreciate your thoughtful analysis, but I'm worried that Sam's 180 here was given just as much thought by the writers as Sam's 180 last season... and will be explored about just as in depth as that was - as in it isn't.

Edited to add: Or what @ahrtee said above better than I did.

Edited January 26, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, SueB said:

Again, just cause I think Sam THINKS this way doesn't mean I agree with him.  I just think we've built up to this "Breakdown" for 13 years.   

This isn't the first time Sam has had a breakdown though. Sam's mental health has never been ignored by the show.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but each and every season, Sam has had some kind of mental health issue come to light that was shown on screen, maybe not to the degree that some would have liked, but it was there. I don't see this being a 13 year build up at all.

[SueB]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

But they didn't force Kaia to go through the rift that time, and she died saving Claire, not Sam and Dean. Sam has no idea what made Kaia decide to go through the rift to save him, so for me, it seems odd that he would assume she decided because of something that he and Dean did the first rime.

While I agree that Sam is due a breakdown, I myself just didn't see it as well set up here at all. And add on to that, we're back to season 1 "we have to find Dad (Mom, Jack)" over the safety of everyone else, and I'm a bit annoyed at what seems is Sam's once again character regression. For me, since the Carver era, there aren't too many Sam positive character traits left, so taking away his hopeful attitude - what happened to the fairly recent "you don't see yourself finding someone in the business to have a future with" to Dean? - computer abilities, hunting abilities, and kindness to others, they aren't leaving Sam with much, in my opinion.

After last season's weird Sam turn around "Let's join the BMoL, yay!" midseason, just to have him have to admit he was wrong and apologize, I'm not looking forward to another Sam learning a very special lesson again this season for plot purposes. Again.

And I understand and appreciate your thoughtful analysis, but I'm worried that Sam's 180 here was given just as much thought by the writers as Sam's 180 last season... and be explored about just as in depth as that was - as in it isn't.

I REALLY hope it's explored because I think it's long overdue.  And as I said before ... our logic is not Winchester logic.  If Dean can find a way he's guilty.  Sam does that too but he compartmentalizes better.  I think the compartmentalizing is slipping.  He KNOWS the logic that Kaia made her own choice, he just isn't going to let himself off the hook.  Partly, I think he's in a bad place where he's piling on and any logic isnt going to help.

[SueB]

Just now, catrox14 said:

This isn't the first time Sam has had a breakdown though. Sam's mental health has never been ignored by the show.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but each and every season, Sam has had some kind of mental health issue come to light that was shown on screen, maybe not to the degree that some would have liked, but it was there. I don't see this being a 13 year build up at all.

True, Sam has had issues in the past but there's a CORE part of Sam that has never been touched. I keep going to his ability to compartmentalize.  Even when having the Hallcuinations, he could put that in a "box" and label it as something that is happening while still being functional.  A lot of people would have just gone into a corner and started rocking.  Sam's ability to compartmenatlize is how he protected himself all these years. 

In my opinion, it's obvious that Sam had a mental breakdown when Dean when missing (and Sam presumed him dead).  But Sam never admited it and Dean didn't twig to it.  That's Dean's own issues (everybody leaves him) getting in the way of seeing Sam's mental collapse.  When Sam was about to finish the ritual in Sacrifice, Dean was almost shocked that Sam felt he was not useful in Dean's mind.  Now I think they are long past those moments BUT I think what is breaking down is Sam's coping mechanism.  And that coping mechanism has been in full view for the last 13 years and kinda fundamental to Sam's ability to "Carry On".  It's losing that ability which is what I said we've had a 13 year buildup.  

Saw this on Tumblr.  Funny as hell 'comments' section has been traslated: http://awed-frog.tumblr.com/post/170149099702/by-the-way-someone-had-a-lot-of-fun-with-this
 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

BUT I think what is breaking down is Sam's coping mechanism.  And that coping mechanism has been in full view for the last 13 years and kinda fundamental to Sam's ability to "Carry On".  It's losing that ability which is what I said we've had a 13 year buildup.  

I guess I just see Sam totally differently.

I don't see this character that has carried around all this angst through the years. I see him as a person who had breaks along the way. Found  new coping skills that don't involve too much alcohol or demon blood.

He seemed to be willing to talk to Dean or at least project onto Dean when Dean wouldn't talk to him. He talked to Amelia when the time was right for him to talk to her.

IMO, Sam has always been shown to be someone who supposed to be more mentally and emotionally stable because he coped in a healthier way than Dean.  He told Dean he doesn't have guilt. So what would be causing this 13 years of stuff? I'm not trying to be snarky here. I just don't see it myself.

Maybe when he told Dean that maybe he was right about Mary earlier in the season which may have been the first seed planted, which I could buy, for this season, but not a 13 year long issue, but it's still not well laid out. JMHO. yMMV

Edited January 26, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode.  Sam's depression did seem to just drop in out of nowhere, but as someone stated up above, we really haven't seen them since they were rescued from the Bad Place.  There hasn't been time for them to show it coming on gradually, and frankly, it didn't have to.  Having been tossed into another world with giant monsters, feeling responsible for involving an innocent in their dangerous business, and being no closer to saving Mary are certainly reasons enough for him quickly fall into a serious funk.  We were told prior to the beginning of the season that they would both go through periods of depression this season, so it didn't surprise me.  

The storyline was sufficiently creepy and Donna was great.  I think that's my biggest reason for not being all in on the spin off.  I'm going to miss these characters' interactions with the Winchesters.  Yes, I'm sure the boys can drop in on their show, but it won't be the same.  Oh well.

The only issue I had was the monster aspect.  When we first see the torture video, I figured it was just some nut job making snuff/torture videos.  Sadly, I think there would actually be an underground market for that kind of shit (God help us that it doesn't already exist).  I'd have preferred they just go with that rather than have the bidders be monsters.  That seemed a bit out there.  What does he do, send the body parts out by FedEx, packed in dry ice?  And all of that money bid just to eat Sam's heart, when it would have been much more fun for these monsters to watch him be slowly tortured.  I also liked the idea of them helping Donna, even though it wasn't one of "their things".  She asked them, they could hear the panic in her voice, and they were there for her, no questions asked.  That would have worked better for me.

As for Doug, I liked that they had him say no to monster hunting.  They've had quite a few people turn to hunting after discovering monsters exist, and I'm sure there would probably be more people who would run in the opposite direction, saying "hell, no!"  He wasn't angry with Donna, he was proud of her, but it just wasn't something he could do.  To me, it was realistic.

Edited January 26, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I really never thought Donna was comic relief. I always thought her depth showed in s9 and s10. That she had layers beneath her veneer. She tried to look on the optimistic side of things. I felt like this was right in line with Donna just making her have more personal angst. But that's just me.

I always rather liked the character and you`re right, she wasn`t completely one-dimensional before but all her previous episodes that I can remember mixed the perkiness with some drama on the side. This was the first episode for me that featured her character in a wholly dramatic context. For an obvious in-story reason so it wasn`t unearned. 

Maybe the comparism with Jody made it stand out even more because her introductory episode was obviously heavy drama and the character usually gets used in a more serious context. Donna has been used in a way more light-hearted manner. Which was fine but I thouroughly appreciated the deviation here. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This was an emotionally heavy episode, but I really liked it.   Brianna did an excellent job.  It was creepy and gross and tense - kept me on the edge of my seat!

I thought it was interesting, and I liked how they chose a title that could refer to several threads through the episode: Wendy’s car breaks down, Doug has a breakdown and therefore his and Donna’s relationship breaks down, and finally, Sam has emotionally broken down. 

I’m glad that they saved Wendy.  It sucks that Doug broke up with Donna over this.  I would have thought he could handle it.  I guess this could be the impetus that sends Donna to Jody’s full time: she can’t handle being around Doug or vice versa and she decides she needs to hunt full time.  Not a great segue into the full hunter life and could be viewed as a little sexist, depending on how I tilt my head, but at least they didn’t go with the cliched ‘loved one dies’, so points for that. 

I’ve gotta admit: it was tough seeing Sam in that emotional state.  I’m just not used to it.  I’m not sure what to think about it.  And while part of me doesn’t want to watch the character go through this because I like his usually positive outlook, I can also see where this ‘breakdown’ has been a long time coming.  So, I hope he doesn’t miraculously snap out of it next episode.  Sam deserves the opportunity to…I don’t know – wallow if he needs to, I guess, or just really explore and come to grips with his own emotional needs and beliefs.

Random bits:

• I wonder if Wendy was named after Donna and that’s one reason they are so close.  I noticed at the gas station, the vampire clerk called her ‘Donna’. 
• I liked seeing the nice overcoats again.  They looked good in them even in the middle of a crisis.
• I liked Doug’s head slap of the clerk.
• Interesting tidbit about monsters ‘fitting in’ with the general population.  I know we’ve already seen it with the shape shifter counselor, but not so much with other monsters, although Garth and his werewolf family fit too.  But not also not giving up their regular feeding habits, like Garth and co. sticking to cow hearts.  Sounds like the monsters had to get smart after the BMOL invasion.  I wonder if the show will do more with this in the future.   It could create some interesting stories for the guys.  Finding monsters just got a lot more complicated.

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see this character that has carried around all this angst through the years.

Nor do I. I don't think this is an accumulation of 13 years, but the accumulation of the last few months. Right after they lost Cass and Mary, Sam did what Sam usually does, which is try and find meaning in the loss instead of feeling the loss. In this case, he put all his effort into helping Jack be "good" which I think Sam thought would make the losses not feel so empty. And it worked for a while so he could continue to pretend it will all turn out okay. But then Jack gets lost, Kaia gets dead and they're no closer to saving Mary than they were at the beginning of the season.  A lot piled on all at once and keeping up the faith just became too exhausting for Sam.

TBH, I think this is Sam's normal coping mechanism for when he's at a loss of what to do next, he just shuts down for a bit--it's what he did in S8, IMO and in S5 when he quit hunting for a bit. I don't expect it to last long. They'll get some word on the Jack and/or Mary front and he'll have something to work towards again. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I always rather liked the character and you`re right, she wasn`t completely one-dimensional before but all her previous episodes that I can remember mixed the perkiness with some drama on the side. This was the first episode for me that featured her character in a wholly dramatic context. For an obvious in-story reason so it wasn`t unearned. 

Maybe the comparism with Jody made it stand out even more because her introductory episode was obviously heavy drama and the character usually gets used in a more serious context. Donna has been used in a way more light-hearted manner. Which was fine but I thouroughly appreciated the deviation here. 

I gotcha. I can see what you mean. I think when she's with Jody she does get reduced comedic sidekick to Jody. But when she's on her own with the boys she has more depth.

Back to Sam

I legitimately don't understand Sam's final speech here at all.

Quote

You were a little tough on Donna back there.

What?

Just sayin'.

Was I wrong? I mean, when has knowing us ever worked out for anyone?

I mean, we save people, Sam.

Yeah, we also get people killed, Dean. Kaia, for instance. She helped us and she died for it.

Hey, look, I know you're in some sort of a --

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't -- don't You keep saying I'm in a dark place, but I'm not, Dean. Everything I'm saying is the truth. It's our lives. And I tried to pretend it didn't have to be. I tried to pretend we could have Mom back and Cass and -- and help Jack. But we can't. This ends one way for us, Dean. It ends bloody. It ends bad. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e11

The bold part doesn't make any sense to me. The Cas part specifically. They got Cas back! What the heck is Perez talking about here? They KNOW that Mary is alive theoretically. Why does he think he didn't help Jack? He did. Jack figured out how to fly a pencil. Would Sam be so depressed if they had gotten to the AW instead of the Bad Place?

He wasn't trying to pretend anything. He believed it to be true. And it turned out to be true because Jack DID open a rift and they did go through. Could he be harboring anger with Kaia because she sent them to the wrong place? I mean I could actually buy into him feeling guilty that he's pissed that the plan didn't work out. I would be okay with that. And that's not unrealistic. It's unfair but I would buy into that TBH because he was so hell bent on getting to Mary before he saw her condition. They know that Mary is alive at least.

TBH, Dean doesn't really make any sense here either.

He went from Mom's dead to putting a gun in Kaia's face to get her to help them, and now he's almost weirdly Zen about it. Why isn't he more frantic about getting to them?

Honestly neither Dean nor Sam make much sense in this episode when I think about it. Maybe someone just decided to  switch their SL's

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Interesting tidbit about monsters ‘fitting in’ with the general population.  I know we’ve already seen it with the shape shifter counselor, but not so much with other monsters, although Garth and his werewolf family fit too.  But not also not giving up their regular feeding habits, like Garth and co. sticking to cow hearts.  Sounds like the monsters had to get smart after the BMOL invasion.  I wonder if the show will do more with this in the future.   It could create some interesting stories for the guys.  Finding monsters just got a lot more complicated.

This part gave me hope that maybe we'll still get to see them using the Bunker for more of an American MOL type set up.  I was hoping for some of that this season, but I think the spin off has taken the spotlight this season.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Nor do I. I don't think this is an accumulation of 13 years, but the accumulation of the last few months. Right after they lost Cass and Mary, Sam did what Sam usually does, which is try and find meaning in the loss instead of feeling the loss. In this case, he put all his effort into helping Jack be "good" which I think Sam thought would make the losses not feel so empty. And it worked for a while so he could continue to pretend it will all turn out okay. But then Jack gets lost, Kaia gets dead and they're no closer to saving Mary than they were at the beginning of the season.  A lot piled on all at once and keeping up the faith just became too exhausting for Sam.S

Okay I went to Wayward Sisters Transcript. Either Kaia or Claire told them. THEY KNOW!

Quote

Hey. How did you get here?

The door, it's still open. For now.

Where's Jack?

I think he's in the other place with your mom. [ Loud roar, growling ] - It's time go. - Yeah, we gotta go. Gotta go. Okay. Anything gets in here, take it down. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e10

Why did Davy Perez write this to imply they have no idea where Jack is? Kaia or Claire, told them! 

This is driving me crazy!

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay I went to Wayward Sisters Transcript. Either Kaia or Claire told them. THEY KNOW!

Why did Davy Perez write this to imply they have no idea where Jack is? Kaia or Claire, told them! 

This is driving me crazy!

I didn't mean literally lost, as in they didn't know where he was, just lost to them in the sense they have no way of reaching Jack--or Mary--right now. I believe both Sam and Dean do actually know where Jack is, though.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't mean literally lost, as in they didn't know where he was, just lost to them in the sense they have no way of reaching Jack--or Mary--right now. I believe both Sam and Dean do actually know where Jack is, though.

Sorry, I wasn't saying it was you saying it. I meant more that you are saying what the show is telling us.

Throughout this episode Dean and Sam both refer to Jack as being lost. They are acting like they have to "FIND JACK" as though they don't know where he is. That's what's bugging me.  Why not have Dean or Sam and say "We know he's in the Apocalypse World. Kaia (I think) told us. We just have to find a way to get to the AW. Or he might find a way here.".

It doesn't make sense writing wise is what I'm saying. There is no mystery as to Jack's whereabouts. The problem is getting to him, not figuring out where he is. Again, it's the writing, not your perception. 

It just really bugs me! LOL

Edited January 26, 2018 by catrox14

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I wasn't saying it was you saying it. I meant more that you are saying what the show is telling us.

Throughout this episode Dean and Sam both refer to Jack as being lost. They are acting like they have to "FIND JACK" as though they don't know where he is. That's what's bugging me.  Why not have Dean or Sam and say "We know he's in the Apocalypse World. Kaia (I think) told us. We just have to find a way to get to the AW. Or he might find a way here.".

It doesn't make sense writing wise is what I'm saying. There is no mystery as to Jack's whereabouts. The problem is getting to him, not figuring out where he is. Again, it's the writing, not your perception. 

It just really bugs me! LOL

Well, if I know you're on Mercury, it doesn't mean you're not lost.  I don't know how to get there, and I don't know where you are on Mercury.  Although, that's a really bad example, because if I know you're on Mercury, I would also know you're dead.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, if I know you're on Mercury, it doesn't mean you're not lost.  I don't know how to get there, and I don't know where you are on Mercury.  Although, that's a really bad example, because if I know you're on Mercury, I would also know you're dead.

Jack showed them where she was. He took them on the mind tour through angel blade spires things to a church door and inside. And when they were in the AW, they were also amongst the giant angel blades and the church spire was in the background IIRC.  They could go back to the lake house where the first rift was and try to open another one since that one went to that spot specifically. My point is they at least have a starting point. They aren't starting from scratch which IMO Perez is implying in his writing here.

ETA: Kaia said he was with Mary. So they know he is in the church place with Mary. Or at least that is a completely reasonable place to start if not perfect.

Edited January 26, 2018 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This part gave me hope that maybe we'll still get to see them using the Bunker for more of an American MOL type set up.  I was hoping for some of that this season, but I think the spin off has taken the spotlight this season.  

Same!  I'd hoped for it last year after the BMoL fiasco, and then hoped they'd carry through and do it this year.  So far not, but maybe we'll see it later in the second half of this year.  That'd be nice. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

I REALLY hope it's explored because I think it's long overdue.  And as I said before ... our logic is not Winchester logic.  If Dean can find a way he's guilty.  Sam does that too but he compartmentalizes better.  I think the compartmentalizing is slipping.  He KNOWS the logic that Kaia made her own choice, he just isn't going to let himself off the hook.  Partly, I think he's in a bad place where he's piling on and any logic isnt going to help.

I hope so also, but I'm remembering a few of Sam's previous breakdowns - like the aforementioned season 8 and his breakdown in "Sam, Interrupted" - but both of those were pretty much left un- or under-explained. The "Sam, Interrupted" one was pretty much dismissed with Dean's (paraphrase) "we don't have time for this, Sam, so just stuff it down, and let's get going." And then the next episode was "Swap Meat" where Sam learned - somehow - that "see, your life is great compared to 'normal'", "The Song Remains the Same" where he got to talk to young John and apparently that conversation solved years' worth of emotional issues, and finally "My Bloody Valentine" where Sam overcame his addiction and boom! Sam was good again... and back to Dean's emotional issues for the rest of the season... where at least Dean's made sense, because they were outlined and explained, but Sam's "anger issues" were pretty much forgotten in the aftermath.

So sadly, I'm expecting more "Sam learns that they really do help and he should listen to Dean that things are going to be okay, and things really aren't so bad after all." which in itself I guess wouldn't be bad... except that that is Sam's usual thing, so his having to "learn" that lesson to me makes little sense.

As @ahrtee above said, these are usually Dean's issues. In my opinion, either let Sam stay mostly hopeful and give him his own emotional issues, or if they are going to turn him into "this is hopeless!" all of a sudden, then I want to see how he got there and why this situation was so different for him when he's been through so much worse and not lost hope. I also agree with this...

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The bold part doesn't make any sense to me. The Cas part specifically. They got Cas back! What the heck is Perez talking about here? They KNOW that Mary is alive theoretically. Why does he think he didn't help Jack? He did. Jack figured out how to fly a pencil. Would Sam be so depressed if they had gotten to the AW instead of the Bad Place?

Exactly. Sam should normally be grabbing on to the fact that Jack is there with Mary and maybe he can help her. I agree, with catrox. Why does Sam think that he didn't help Jack? Why was Sam more optimistic when he didn't know that Mary was alive than now when they know she's alive? And catrox is also right that Sam wasn't pretending - in my opinion - that he thought he could help Jack... Sam actually did think that he could help Jack. Otherwise then what were the writers saying about Sam? That Sam was pretending and irresponsibly trying to help a potentially dangerous Jack for what purpose? Just to prove Dean wrong or something? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. So Perez's attempts here to retroactively try to make it seem like Sam's optimism concerning Mary and Jack were all a front by Sam makes no sense to me. Sam, in my opinion, isn't the "put on a pretend 'I'm just fine' face and carry on" kind of person. He's completely crappy at that.

... and I'm about to rant into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory over the writers seeming to try to turn Sam into Dean, so I'll stop now.

I wanted to like this episode, but my concern over what's coming next and what character thing they are going to do to Sam this season for plot purposes is making it so I can't. I need some Sam optimism here, but apparently we can't have nice things like that any more. * pouts and slinks away *

Edited January 27, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Casseiopeia]

[catrox14]

https://twitter.com/MrBrendanTaylor/status/957013249383325696

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Hey how did you get that to embed. I can't make Tweets work.

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

https://twitter.com/MrBrendanTaylor/status/957013249383325696

Hey how did you get that to embed. I can't make Tweets work.

It didn't want to at first.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

It didn't want to at first.  

Did you just keep pasting the link or what?

[catrox14]

grrr

Edited January 27, 2018 by catrox14

[Casseiopeia]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did you just keep pasting the link or what?

Sorry had to get back to work.  I did retry pasting a few times and then it worked.

[catrox14]

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Sorry had to get back to work.  I did retry pasting a few times and then it worked.

Hmm I'll keep trying! thanks

[Zanne]

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

He probably could have just charged to watch a torture session and made more money because more could have gotten in on it and I see them as more special in terms of payback then their actual nutritional content.

 

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The only issue I had was the monster aspect.  When we first see the torture video, I figured it was just some nut job making snuff/torture videos.  Sadly, I think there would actually be an underground market for that kind of shit (God help us that it doesn't already exist).  I'd have preferred they just go with that rather than have the bidders be monsters. 

 

This is exactly what I thought. This should have been another people-are-monsters-too episode, and then they ended up going with actual monsters. Humans are a messed up species - I could see people bidding on what part to cut off next or what kind of torture to use. My knowledge of live view porn sites pretty much extends from fanfic reading, but isn't that kind of how it works? The person will do so and so only if the donations of the viewers reach a certain point? It would have made the story more horrifying to know that no monsters were behind it, even in theory. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Zanne

[OrigamiNightmare]

Ahhh thank you I guess I got them confused by them having the same name.

[catrox14]

I was noodling further on Sam's sudden depression. I'm gonna throw out there some speculation that maybe being in the Bad Place triggered Sam's own psychic visions and he's been seeing a bloody bad end and that's why he's suddenly so depressed , MO it's sudden. Your mileage may vary :).

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was noodling further on Sam's sudden depression. I'm gonna throw out there some speculation that maybe being in the Bad Place triggered Sam's own psychic visions and he's been seeing a bloody bad end and that's why he's suddenly so depressed , MO it's sudden. Your mileage may vary :).

If they bring back Sam's psychic visions, I'm outta here.  And I never felt that way before, no matter how bad things got.  

Edited January 28, 2018 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If they bring back Sam's psychic visions, I'm outta here.  And I never felt that way before, no matter how bad things got.  

Same. I don't want a revisit of the visions or the freaking demon blood to bolster his abilities to get Mary out of the AU. I wouldn't put it past TPTB to go there if they started down that road.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

If they bring back Sam's psychic visions, I'm outta here.  And I never felt that way before, no matter how bad things got.  

I'll drive the bus. 

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll drive the bus. 

I've got gas money!

[DeeDee79]

https://movietvtechgeeks.com/six-things-love-supernatural-1311-breakdown/

[takalotti]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the reason Sam shook his head at Dean about agreeing to help the FBI agent with the case, or said "This is stupid," was because it wasn’t "their kind of case." I think the only reason he wanted to back off was because real FBI was there. Otherwise, I think he would have been all in. Even with FBI there, I think he would have been okay if they responded to the agent's invite to help with "Looks like you got this covered. Donna let us know when you find her" but then really work the case in parallel. Donna could stay with the agent and let the Ws know his whereabouts so they wouldn’t run into him while they’d poked around. They could feed her leads that she could work into the agent's search. I really think Sam only objected to working side by side with the agent.

 

On 1/26/2018 at 5:58 PM, catrox14 said:

I legitimately don't understand Sam's final speech here at all.

[I tried to pretend we could have Mom back and Cas and - and help Jack. But we can’t.]

The bold part doesn't make any sense to me. The Cas part specifically. They got Cas back! What the heck is Perez talking about here? They KNOW that Mary is alive theoretically. Why does he think he didn't help Jack? He did. Jack figured out how to fly a pencil. Would Sam be so depressed if they had gotten to the AW instead of the Bad Place?

He wasn't trying to pretend anything. He believed it to be true. And it turned out to be true because Jack DID open a rift and they did go through. Could he be harboring anger with Kaia because she sent them to the wrong place? I mean I could actually buy into him feeling guilty that he's pissed that the plan didn't work out. I would be okay with that. And that's not unrealistic. It's unfair but I would buy into that TBH because he was so hell bent on getting to Mary before he saw her condition. They know that Mary is alive at least.

TBH, Dean doesn't really make any sense here either.

He went from Mom's dead to putting a gun in Kaia's face to get her to help them, and now he's almost weirdly Zen about it. Why isn't he more frantic about getting to them?

Honestly neither Dean nor Sam make much sense in this episode when I think about it. Maybe someone just decided to  switch their SL's

Not saying this will help any, but the bold part that you dislike works for me when I see it as Sam describing his mindset starting from before Jack was born (also, I don’t think of what I'm about to describe as "pretending" but more like "fooling myself" or "being in denial").

I can buy that after Amara brought Mary back, and Cas hadn’t died for Jack yet, Sam believed that the Hunter life could work out for them. That things could be relatively good. But then they lost Mary to the AW and Cas got killed. He tried to refocus his "This could work" mentality on helping Jack, but then he got lost to the AW as well.

I think he’s trying to describe feeling stupid now for believing back then that things could work out well.

Edited January 28, 2018 by takalotti

[Res]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll drive the bus. 

Screw the bus. That won't be fast enough. I'll get a private jet!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

https://movietvtechgeeks.com/six-things-love-supernatural-1311-breakdown/

Sometimes I really wish I could see the show the way she sees it. 

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sometimes I really wish I could see the show the way she sees it. 

True indeed. Her reviews are pretty interesting though.