S13.E10: Wayward Sisters

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Threatening? No. I don't think he was threatening Patience, but I do think he was saying--in the heat of the moment--that if she chose to leave she wasn't welcome back.

Patience herself confirmed this when she was planning to leave and said "I hope my father will take me back".  I think her father was rejecting her just like he did his mother.  

[trxr4kids]

Between the Maybelline and Vidal Sassoon ads I felt like I only saw 5 to 10 minutes of Supernatural. ; )

[SueB]

On 1/21/2018 at 10:19 AM, bozodegama said:

I don’t know man.  I really liked Patience and thought she was the most attractive of the 4 girls (they’re all attractive). She was like a Deer on the headlights, which is pretty normal for an 18 year old girl facing monsters.  Claire was over the top and she better get a bigger knife.  A 2 inch knife isn’t going to cut it.  I thought the issue with the dad was more racist.  The guy kicks his mother out of his life when she makes a mistake. Then,  he’s like this super single dad but tells his daughter not to come back.  I know they were going for symmetry with John Winchester or even Dean when he tells Sammy after they fight in season 4 if he leaves, not to come back, but they made the dad look like a total dick.  

I KNOW.  Technically I'll say it was 4 inches but she needs a good hunting knife, not a stubby switchblade.  There are even better switchblades than the one she used.  She can't decapatate anything with that.... 

[ILoveReading]

On 1/21/2018 at 6:56 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Patience herself confirmed this when she was planning to leave and said "I hope my father will take me back".  I think her father was rejecting her just like he did his mother.  

This really didn't make much sense.   Because from what we saw, Patience's father seemed to regret that he never had a chance to make things right with his mother.  He seemed protective of his daughter.  So for him to just throw her out didn't find with the little bit we saw of him.

IMO, when the actor delivered the line, (paraphrasing). if you go down there, you don't come back. 

I thought he was saying that once you open that door you can't close it, more that he life would never be the same.  Not get out and don't come back. 

Ironically, despite Dean saying the lizard didn't taste like chicken.  It was chicken.  According to the con this weekend they used a taxidermed lizard and they attached pieces of chicken for for Jensen to peel off.

Edited January 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought he was saying that once you open that door you can't close it, more that he life would never be the same.  Not get out and don't come back. 

I thought I was on an island by myself in reading that scene this way.  I kept going back and watching it thinking what the heck am I missing here! Maybe I wasn't missing anything after all, or we are both missing something LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Ironically, despite Dean saying the lizard didn't taste like chicken.  It was chicken.  According to the con this weekend they used a taxidermed lizard and they attached pieces of chicken for for Jensen to peel off.

This only makes it even better. LMAO!!

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought I was on an island by myself in reading that scene this way.  I kept going back and watching it thinking what the heck am I missing here! Maybe I wasn't missing anything after all, or we are both missing something LOL

He says "You go now, you choose that life, you don't come back."

IMO, saying its not a decision she can take back makes more sense than go away based on the context of the scene.

Also, Patience seems to be a minor that Jody has no legal authority over and is pushing to do dangerous things.  Why isn't her father kicking up more of a fuss. 

[Pondlass1]

He didn't eat while in purgatory did he?  I think that was said somewhere in script?  

Wish we'd got more of the Bad Place but I was hoping for dinosaurs and not that silly looking monster who needs a girl to find its food.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

He didn't eat while in purgatory did he?  I think that was said somewhere in script?  

Wish we'd got more of the Bad Place but I was hoping for dinosaurs and not that silly looking monster who needs a girl to find its food.

I don't think they said definitely one way of the other whether or not he ate.  But, if he was in his body and you could die there, I'm of the opinion that he had to have eaten.

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Also, Patience seems to be a minor that Jody has no legal authority over and is pushing to do dangerous things.  Why isn't her father kicking up more of a fuss. 

I got the impression that she's a senior, so she may very well be 18.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He says "You go now, you choose that life, you don't come back."

IMO, saying its not a decision she can take back makes more sense than go away based on the context of the scene.

Also, Patience seems to be a minor that Jody has no legal authority over and is pushing to do dangerous things.  Why isn't her father kicking up more of a fuss. 

Yep, that's exactly how I read that scene. I think I posted similar comments in the Patience thread and elsewhere. I remembered my first reaction was Berens is just using Sam's arc almost entirely with Patience right down to a father kicking out a 18 year old but then when I watched it again, I didn't think that was the case anymore.

The difference being that John told Sam not to come back because John was pissed at him for not choosing the family. He never said anything about it being dangerous for Sam to go to school, but more that he was pissed at Sam for what he saw as abandoning him. Now John may have been fearful for Sam like James is with Patience but John just couldn't express that for...reasons until after they reunited. But John didn't tell that to Sam the night Sam left if DSoTM is to be considered the canon events of when Sam left

  To me, whatever strong emotions James expressed about Patience leaving it was much more about how the life itself would be dangerous for her and possibly never let her come back vs him never actually wanting her nor allowing her to return.

That said, I think they also wanted to invoke that memory in the audience to drum up the angst because they apparently couldn't figure out how to give any of the WS their own personalities and SL but instead just made them almagamations of Dean and Sam, which IMO is another reason WS is more divisive than it should have been as one person's rip off story beats are another person's parallel/homage. 

At this point, IMO by doing it this way, Dabb and Berens have put themselves into a catch -22. If they continue repurposing SL and character beats for the WS then it's just a gender swap.  If however, they veer off that path and start recharacterizing the Wayward Sisters into their own fully realized, not at all like Dean and Sam hybrids, then that's almost a bait and switch tactic which will please some and piss off others. If they keep them in that fem versions of the boys, then how is that ever going to let them become their own people and not forever be evoking Sam and Dean unless they intend it to always evoke Dean and Sam which IMO is not a great option. It will be an ongoing comparison.

Edited January 23, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

don't think they said definitely one way of the other whether or not he ate.  But, if he was in his body and you could die there, I'm of the opinion that he had to have eaten.

I remember reading or maybe it was a con or something that it was suggested that since was in a dimension not meant for human beings, he was in a kind of physical stasis which is why he didn't grow a beard so maybe he didn't have to eat or sleep or other stuff.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I remember reading or maybe it was a con or something that it was suggested that since was in a dimension not meant for human beings, he was in a kind of physical stasis which is why he didn't grow a beard so maybe he didn't have to eat or sleep or other stuff.

Does that mean you don't age there.  I might be willing to go to monsterland if it means never having to get older.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Does that mean you don't age there.  I might be willing to go to monsterland if it means never having to get older.

I think that's a fair assumption and would explain why Dean didn't seem to age at all in that year and came back fit as a fiddle and tan to boot!  LOL...

ETA: Physically fit that is cause mentally and emotionally he was a mess.

Edited January 23, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I remember reading or maybe it was a con or something that it was suggested that since was in a dimension not meant for human beings, he was in a kind of physical stasis which is why he didn't grow a beard so maybe he didn't have to eat or sleep or other stuff.

 

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think they said definitely one way of the other whether or not he ate.  But, if he was in his body and you could die there, I'm of the opinion that he had to have eaten.

This is also my opinion. He was physically there, unlike when his soul was in hell and his body was in the ground. I imagine Dean could shave with his knife, and scavenge what food there was to be found. 

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I remember reading or maybe it was a con or something that it was suggested that since was in a dimension not meant for human beings, he was in a kind of physical stasis which is why he didn't grow a beard so maybe he didn't have to eat or sleep or other stuff.

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is also my opinion. He was physically there, unlike when his soul was in hell and his body was in the ground. I imagine Dean could shave with his knife, and scavenge what food there was to be found. 

I can see it either way.  Cas had a physical body there (and no knife!) and he grew a beard (or at least scruff).     

FIghting non-stop would keep you in good physical shape (assuming you won), so no surprise that he was in good shape when he returned.  But I don't think he would have had a very balanced diet (somehow I can't see Dean scrounging a salad) so he should have had some serious vitamin deficiencies.  Of course, nuts and berries have vitamins...

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I can see it either way.  Cas had a physical body there (and no knife!) and he grew a beard (or at least scruff

Cas is unique that he is his own vessel in Purgatory.. So at that point he might not react like a fully human Dean,no stasis for Cas because his vessel is kind of an amalgamation so I can head canon he wouldn't respond the same way as Dean, hence he grew a beard but Dean didn't. Perhaps the stress of Dean being in Purgatory just shut down some of his human stuff, like when your hair falls out or your fingernails don't grow because of stress. Maybe his hair just didn't grow from stress.

I'll never understand that part of Purgatory Dean LOL

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

But John didn't tell that to Sam the night Sam left if DSoTM is to be considered the canon events of when Sam left

Well, to be fair, DSotM never actually showed any of the events around Sam leaving, just the street outside; and Dean called it "the night you ditched us for Stanford," rather than "the night dad threw you out.")  I don't think we've ever had a canon scene of the John/Sam fight, just Sam's interpretation of it.  (Let me know if I'm forgetting something :) )

AFAIK, the closest we got to the actual fight was the John/Sam fight in Dead Man's Blood where they shouted accusations at each other.  

JOHN: (Yelling in SAM'S face) You walked away!!
DEAN: Stop it, both of you.
SAM: You're the one who said don't come back Dad, you closed that door not me. You were just pissed off that you couldn't control me anymore!

So John never said that he was worried about Sam; instead, he accused him of abandoning the family.  And Sam said that he left on his own, not that John kicked him out.  

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

AFAIK, the closest we got to the actual fight was the John/Sam fight in Dead Man's Blood where they shouted accusations at each other.  

PIlot:

I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go I should stay gone. And that's what I'm doing.

Bugs:

SAM Dean, you know what most dads are when their kids score a full ride? Proud. Most dads don't toss their kids out of the house.

DEAN I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin' out of your mouth.

Yes, those are both Sam's POVs, but in neither case does Dean say "what are you talking about, dad told you to come home on the weekends."

Edited January 23, 2018 by Katy M

[ahrtee]

Just now, Katy M said:

PIlot:

I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go I should stay gone. And that's what I'm doing.

Bugs:

SAM Dean, you know what most dads are when their kids score a full ride? Proud. Most dads don't toss their kids out of the house.

DEAN I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin' out of your mouth.

Thanks for reminding me.  Still no actual flashbacks, just their interpretations.  And it was still the same thing.  John said "*if* you're gonna go, don't come back," not "get out of here."  And it was Sam's interpretation that John "tossed [him] out of the house."  

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, those are both Sam's POVs, but in neither case does Dean say "what are you talking about, dad told you to come home on the weekends."

Well, no one was disputing the "if you walk out that door, don't come back!" ultimatum.  The only difference is that it was Sam's choice to leave (in the first place to go to college, which was the original fight, and the second place, which was the "*if* you go.")  John didn't throw him out, he made the choice to leave all on his own. Twice.   I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, just that Sam interpreted that in the second scene you quoted to "dad kicked me out."  

Edited January 23, 2018 by ahrtee

[bozodegama]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas is unique that he is his own vessel in Purgatory.. So at that point he might not react like a fully human Dean,no stasis for Cas because his vessel is kind of an amalgamation so I can head canon he wouldn't respond the same way as Dean, hence he grew a beard but Dean didn't. Perhaps the stress of Dean being in Purgatory just shut down some of his human stuff, like when your hair falls out or your fingernails don't grow because of stress. Maybe his hair just didn't grow from stress.

I'll never understand that part of Purgatory Dean LOL

I think you must be right about Dean being in a different dimension and not having to do human things.  A whole year of eating headless monsters (and they don't taste very good, precious), pooping without toilet paper, not taking a shower or being able to properly clean yourself and you'd get pretty sick and really skinny  Maybe since Dean was human and didn't belong there, his body was in some kind of stasis. Ackles doesn't grow a full beard like Misha does, anyway.  Dude doesn't seem like he has to shave that much anyway.   Purgatory always confused me too.  But Dean really enjoyed his cheeseburger when he got back.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, no one was disputing the "if you walk out that door, don't come back!" ultimatum.  The only difference is that it was Sam's choice to leave (in the first place to go to college, which was the original fight, and the second place, which was the "*if* you go.")  John didn't throw him out, he made the choice to leave all on his own. Twice.   I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, just that Sam interpreted that in the second scene you quoted to "dad kicked me out."  

John spoke in anger but I don't think he meant don't ever, never come

From the Bad Place:

Quote

Patience: They never stopped. I see things before they happen. Usually small things -- a conversation, what someone will be wearing the next day. I tried pushing them down, ignoring them. But now? I can't. Dad... this is who I am.
James: No. If you get involved in that... Look, I was wrong to lie about Grandma. But you know what happened to her.
Patience: You raised me to do what's right, and this is what's right. If I don't go, people will die.ames: Patience, don't. You go now, you choose that life, you don't come back.

To me, Patience was upset and James was upset and MO James was not issuing her an ultimatum. I don't think the writing suggests it and I don't think Adrian played it that way.  And I think if viewers perceive it as an ultimatum, it's because Berens and Dabb wrote it close enough to John and Sam's dispute to ping that emotional space. The subtext is suggesting it could be the same but I don't think it played out that way myself. YMMV

Obviously, though Patience seems to believe.  IMO John was both pissed at Sam and scared for Sam, but it was all mixed up. And that's not just a male thing. Women get their emotions mixed up too (well I do sometimes or it takes me a while to sort out what I'm thinking and feeling".  Maybe I'm more like a guy than I realize LOL 

IMO, the rift he had with Missouri was always about the hunting life destroying his family given the toll it took on him with Missouri apparently being away from him as a child to hunt, which BTW is another reason why I say it's a bad retcon in that even as much as I really dislike Missouri, she didn't strike me as someone who would take a child hunting nor leave a child behind all the time to hunt,  given how pissed she was at John for not talking to Dean and Sam.  It just doesn't really add up to me that James is all "GET OUT YOU BAD CHILD AND NEVER COME BACK".  YMMV

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Maybe since Dean was human and didn't belong there, his body was in some kind of stasis.

Yeah that was my theory just a couple of posts above. That the dimensional differences affected humans and angels in vessels differently.

I'm pretty sure the facial hair was likely more a matter of the CW's stupid rule that they couldn't have scruff on Dean and Sam. I'm glad that changed in s9 with Dean's Scruff of Angst and Sorrow

Thanks for giving me a reason to post this gif that is my banner LOL

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, no one was disputing the "if you walk out that door, don't come back!" ultimatum.  The only difference is that it was Sam's choice to leave (in the first place to go to college, which was the original fight, and the second place, which was the "*if* you go.")  John didn't throw him out, he made the choice to leave all on his own. Twice.   I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, just that Sam interpreted that in the second scene you quoted to "dad kicked me out."  

I'm sorry I thought that was what was being disputed in light of the discussion of what Patience's father said.  I thought it was always obvious that Sam made the choice to go to college.  John would have never thrown him out as long as Sam agreed to hunt and do everything he told him to do.

 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

John spoke in anger but I don't think he meant don't ever, never come

I don't think he probably meant it either, but that's not the same as Sam not believing he meant it.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I don't think he probably meant it either, but that's not the same as Sam not believing he meant it.

Agreed, which is what I said elsewhere. It's what I'm saying about Patience also; that they both interpreted what their fathers said as ultimatums and that the door was closed which doesn't mean either were right in their perceptions which was their realities.

IMO when young adults make choices to leave home especially if parents are worried and don't want the child  to leave there is guilt on both sides IMO which clouds perceptions. Patience might feel a bit guilty for leaving James and also angry that he isn't on board her decision. So she's perceiving that she isn't welcome to come back. Then I think James feels a bit guilty for not wanting his daughter to help others because it could get her killed so he is essentially "begging" her to not go by warning her that the life could get her anyway.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

At this point, IMO by doing it this way, Dabb and Berens have put themselves into a catch -22. If they continue repurposing SL and character beats for the WS then it's just a gender swap.  If however, they veer off that path and start recharacterizing the Wayward Sisters into their own fully realized, not at all like Dean and Sam hybrids, then that's almost a bait and switch tactic which will please some and piss off others. If they keep them in that fem versions of the boys, then how is that ever going to let them become their own people and not forever be evoking Sam and Dean unless they intend it to always evoke Dean and Sam which IMO is not a great option. It will be an ongoing comparison.

I found all the girls are pretty much just rip off of Sam's stories. 

Claire- her "girlfriend" of literally two minutes was killed off so she could vow revenge and give the writers an excuse as to why she suddenly wants to stay in Sioux Falls. 

Alex- the whole, I don't want to be a hunter in a family of hunters story.

Patience- Powers that she can't control. 

Kaia- If they go the way the showed it looks like she'll be fighting with her dark side. 

It seems like they took all of Sam's major plot point and gave one to each of the girls.

Edited January 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I found all the girls are pretty much just rip off of Sam's stories. 

Claire- her "girlfriend" of literally two minutes was killed off so she could vow revenge and give the writers an excuse as to why she suddenly wants to stay in Sioux Falls.

Alex- the whole, I don't want to be a hunter in a family of hunters story.

Patience- Powers that she can't control. 

Kaia- If they go the way the showed it looks like she'll be fighting with her dark side. 

It seems like they took all of Sam's major plot point and gave one to each of the girls.

Agreed and they peppered in Dean's stuff too

Claire: Snarky one liners and suddenly the greatest shot ever when she couldn't even run from a werewolf properly which IMO is one of the failures in writing with Claire. It's whiplash from where she was in s12 to this. It needed filling in for me on screen to be remotely satisfying or at least a dang line of dialogue where she's like 'Yeah I got target practice and read a lot of lore or something, ANYTHING to explain that 180.  

Alex: Staying home for Jody and helping with housework and monsters

I'm not seeing much with Patience for Dean other than the desire to help other people.

Kaia: Nothing except maybe a battle for the dark side in her like Dean had with the Mark of Cain?

[bozodegama]

The big difference between what John did to Sam and what James did to Patience is that Sam was going to college, had been hunting since he was nine and could take care of himself.  Patience is a High School girl (what year is confusing), has never been away from home before (as far as I know).  If I was James, i'd be texting my daughter frantically every 5 minutes to see if she was okay and would drive to see where she was.  You just don't give your high school age daughter that kind of ultimatum.  Especially, if she's your only family like she appears to be for James.  I know Supernatural treats fathers poorly (except Bobby) but that was pretty uncool just for the symmetry.  

[catrox14]

Just now, bozodegama said:

The big difference between what John did to Sam and what James did to Patience is that Sam was going to college, had been hunting since he was nine and could take care of himself.  Patience is a High School girl (what year is confusing), has never been away from home before (as far as I know).  If I was James, i'd be texting my daughter frantically every 5 minutes to see if she was okay and would drive to see where she was.  You just don't give your high school age daughter that kind of ultimatum.  Especially, if she's your only family like she appears to be for James.  I know Supernatural treats fathers poorly (except Bobby) but that was pretty uncool just for the symmetry.  

If the audience interprets what he said as an ultimatum which some don't.

They live in Georgia and it's like what 12 hours to Sioux Falls by car? Anyway, she's been gone about 2 or 3 days tops. James knows where she went. He knows Jody is a cop and that she went there to help Jody. Nothing about the Bad Place is known to James AFAIK.  He might be trying to give her space and take some space himself to figure it out. That doesn't make him bad IMO. That said, I can see that if one thinks it was an ultimatum then it makes him look worse.  Thus far, I don't think it's clear either way if he's tried to contact her. Did she make mention of it? I don't recall

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If the audience interprets what he said as an ultimatum which some don't.

They live in Georgia and it's like what 12 hours to Sioux Falls by car? Anyway, she's been gone about 2 or 3 days tops. James knows where she went. He knows Jody is a cop and that she went there to help Jody. Nothing about the Bad Place is known to James AFAIK.  He might be trying to give her space and take some space himself to figure it out. That doesn't make him bad IMO. That said, I can see that if one thinks it was an ultimatum then it makes him look worse.  Thus far, I don't think it's clear either way if he's tried to contact her. Did she make mention of it? I don't recall

But why then would Patience say 'maybe he'll take me back'? (or something close to that anyway)

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But why then would Patience say 'maybe he'll take me back'? (or something close to that anyway)

For all the reasons, I've said before.  It's her perception and belief that he won't take her back. It was never shown on screen that the told her that she was expressly not welcome to return unless one interprets that scene in the Bad Place, as such which I don't.

[companionenvy]

I don't think Patience misinterpreted what he said at all - her mistake is in thinking he would ever stick to it. I think James would be over the moon if Patience had come back home during or after the events of Wayward Sisters; he was totally bluffing in issuing the ultimatum in the hope that he would scare her into staying put.  His problem is he wasn't prepared for his gambit to fail, and now Patience is a lot less likely to come back home because of it.  Although even she allows for the possibility that he would take her back; she just isn't sure and, apart from any other reason for staying with the WS, might be too scared to find out. It might seem a lot safer to hold on to the thought that your father might forgive you than to risk learning that he won't. 

I do expect him to show up and be eventually reconciled to Patience if the show goes to series.

[Katy M]

Here's the whole exchange from The Bad Place

James: What about school?

Patience: I'll miss a few days. No big deal.

James: Patience...

Patience: Someone... A friend's in danger. [Sighs] They're going to be in danger.

James: You had a vision.

Patience: They never stopped. I see things before they happen. Usually small things– a conversation, what someone will be wearing the next day. I tried pushing them down, ignoring them. But now? I can't. Dad... this is who I am.

James: No. If you get involved in that... Look, I was wrong to lie about Grandma. But you know what happened to her.

Patience: You raised me to do what's right, and this is what's right. If I don't go, people will die.

James: Patience, don't. You go now, you choose that life, you don't come back.

 

So, first of all, I don't see anything in that where Patience said she was going to Jodie's.  She just said she was leaving and would be back in a few days.  If she's 18, fine, not much he can do about it legally.  If she's not, he should have told her not to leave, couldn't she just call and warn this friend and if she still left, call the cops.  Was she driving when she left?  Does she actually own her own car?  Like it's fully in her name?  I don't know.  If it's her car, then all we have is running away and the cops won't do much about a 17 year old running away unless they just happen to stumble over her, but still, do something.  Be a parent.

Now, whether or not, he would stick to it, I doubt.  But, I do interpret that line as him saying "don't come back."  And, so did his daughter who has known him her whole life. 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I do expect him to show up and be eventually reconciled to Patience if the show goes to series.

I expect him to be killed to make sure she doesn't have anyone to go home to (since they keep referring to all the girls as orphans) and to make her into a full-time vengeful hunter.  

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I expect him to be killed to make sure she doesn't have anyone to go home to (since they keep referring to all the girls as orphans) and to make her into a full-time vengeful hunter.  

I agree with this! As someone else mentioned, sorry I can’t remember who, Patience has no real reason to stick around now that she has completed operation save Claire. She doesn’t have the same emotional bond from years of living together shared by Claire, Jody and Alex. They’ll need something to spur her into hunting and the death of a loved one seems to be Supernatural’s go to route for this since episode one. 

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I agree with this! As someone else mentioned, sorry I can’t remember who, Patience has no real reason to stick around now that she has completed operation save Claire. She doesn’t have the same emotional bond from years of living together shared by Claire, Jody and Alex. They’ll need something to spur her into hunting and the death of a loved one seems to be Supernatural’s go to route for this since episode one. 

And reiterated in The Magnificent Seven by stating straight out that "everybody gets into hunting somehow," meaning deadly tragedy.  And that was a just a one epi couple.  So, it's either death of a loved one, or born into it.  I'd be interested to know if we know for a fact any hunter, even one in just one episode, that has any different background.  Oh wait, I thought of one as I was typing that.  Garth was a dentist and had to hunt the tooth fairy.  As far as I know, that didn't involve the death of a family member.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Patience misinterpreted what he said at all - her mistake is in thinking he would ever stick to it. I think James would be over the moon if Patience had come back home during or after the events of Wayward Sisters; he was totally bluffing in issuing the ultimatum in the hope that he would scare her into staying put.

If he was bluffing then it wasn't really an ultimatum, no?

 

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, first of all, I don't see anything in that where Patience said she was going to Jodie's.  She just said she was leaving and would be back in a few days. 

Maybe I'm confusing Jody with Dean or I'm conflating that with Sam's convo with Jody.   Regardless, he knew that Dean called needing help with a psychic thing. So at minimum, he could reasonably assume that she was going off to help Dean who he knows and they both know Jody. He could call Dean, who wouldn't have answered but he still could call him or Sam to check on Patience. Again, only a couple of days have passed so he would still be giving her space IMO

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

And reiterated in The Magnificent Seven by stating straight out that "everybody gets into hunting somehow," meaning deadly tragedy.  And that was a just a one epi couple.  So, it's either death of a loved one, or born into it.  I'd be interested to know if we know for a fact any hunter, even one in just one episode, that has any different background.  Oh wait, I thought of one as I was typing that.  Garth was a dentist and had to hunt the tooth fairy.  As far as I know, that didn't involve the death of a family member.

Missouri already died for Patience. Killing off James is just over kill so I don't think they'll do it. If anything, if the showrunners are smart, they will have James become part of Team Jody and he'll do stuff to help them. They would be fools to lose Adrian Holmes should it go to series.

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Patience misinterpreted what he said at all - her mistake is in thinking he would ever stick to it. I think James would be over the moon if Patience had come back home during or after the events of Wayward Sisters; he was totally bluffing in issuing the ultimatum in the hope that he would scare her into staying put.  His problem is he wasn't prepared for his gambit to fail, and now Patience is a lot less likely to come back home because of it.  Although even she allows for the possibility that he would take her back; she just isn't sure and, apart from any other reason for staying with the WS, might be too scared to find out. It might seem a lot safer to hold on to the thought that your father might forgive you than to risk learning that he won't. 

I do expect him to show up and be eventually reconciled to Patience if the show goes to series.

I agree. I think he did mean what he said as an ultimatum, but I don't think he'd stick by it if she did come home. That's the problem with ultimatums though - both people have to live with them, unless/until one is willing to make the first move.

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I expect him to be killed to make sure she doesn't have anyone to go home to (since they keep referring to all the girls as orphans) and to make her into a full-time vengeful hunter.  

100%

[catrox14]

AFAIK, Missouri didn't get into hunting because of death or birthright. She was hunting when James was a child and then it was James' wife who died. Missouri didn't predict it correctly so James blamed her for her death ( another aspect to Missouri being a hunter that is a clunky retcon. Why did she start hunting?)

Edited January 23, 2018 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If he was bluffing then it wasn't really an ultimatum, no?

IMO, an ultimatum issued as a bluff is still an ultimatum, just like a threat can still be a threat even if the person who issues it doesn't actually intend to follow through. Either way, I don't think he meant it in the metaphorical sense of "If you walk through that door, there's no coming back from it." 

I agree with you that I think (or maybe just hope) that the show wouldn't be lazy enough to just kill James off for more pain. Patience is old enough that she could plausibly reconcile with her father sometime down the road (not in episode 1 or 2) but decide to stay and help out the group while getting a GED and taking college courses in the Sioux Falls area.  No need to have her story be in precisely the same situation as Claire and Alex.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

And reiterated in The Magnificent Seven by stating straight out that "everybody gets into hunting somehow," meaning deadly tragedy.  And that was a just a one epi couple.  So, it's either death of a loved one, or born into it.  I'd be interested to know if we know for a fact any hunter, even one in just one episode, that has any different background.  Oh wait, I thought of one as I was typing that.  Garth was a dentist and had to hunt the tooth fairy.  As far as I know, that didn't involve the death of a family member.

And Elliot Ness.  

DEAN: So, now, w-who died in your life and made you a hunter?

ELIOT NESS: Who died? Nobody died, you morbid son of a bitch. I started doing this 'cause vampires were turning folks in Cleveland.

[Philip]

God, this episode was so bland and boring that I didn't even bother to finish. Easily one of the worst SPN episodes and it's even worse than that SPN spin-off episode they tried to pull.

 

Just no. Give us Sam and Dean! That's the real SPN!

[MysteryGuest]

Honestly, I never looked at Patience's situation as a duplicate of Sam's.  Patience and her father did not have a contentious relationship.  By all accounts, they got along just fine.  Had the monster not come for Missouri and then for Patience, herself, she'd  have probably just continued doing what she'd been doing.  Although, if her visions became more frequent, that's a pretty difficult thing to ignore forever, regardless of what her father wants her to do.

Since her father had cut off his own mother without a backward glance, it isn't hard for me to think that he could or would do the same with his daughter.  Not that he didn't love her.  I think he still loved his mother, he just couldn't deal with the monster aspect of her life.  I still think he meant that if she chose to leave, then she needed to stay away.  And because she says "maybe he'll take me back", that just reinforced my opinion.  Now just because he told her to not come back doesn't mean that he wouldn't let her return.  My guess is he was just scared and hurt, and thought he could threaten her into staying.  That doesn't usually work out too well.  But I never saw it as a parallel to Sam and John, but more of a repeat of his actions toward his mother.

[SueB]

I took James' "you don't come back" combined with Patience's "maybe he'll take me back" as a sign:

1) James was definitely telling her that if she left she couldn't come back.  (Note: that was my first read as well).

2) That James is an ASSHOLE.  Because no matter what he meant to say or did say, Patience was HOPING her Dad would take her back.  How is that even a question in a child's mind!?!?!?!?!   Okay, if your 28 ... maybe it's a question.  But she's 18 and still in high school.  She should feel like her Dad would never say that -- at least and not mean it.  Now add in cutting off his own mother for over a decade.  Says to me James has a pattern of withholding his love.  He did so in anger with his mother, and he may do so in dissappointment that Patience isn't following "their" plan.

Now compare that to Jody's statement of UNCONDITIONAL support that she gave to Alex (in the "THEN" section).  "Whatever you want from me, I'll give it.  If you want, I'm here."  Jody is awesome.  Jody sets boundaries but she also lets them do their own thing.  And heaven knows Claire pushed that envelope so HARD.  I'm not saying Jody is perfect.  But look at what happen with Claire - she was (per Claire) 'overprotective' during hunts.  Well, she took her in the first place!  Then when Claire struck out on her own, Jody always had open arms (and Claire knew this) but after a bit of time, she went ahead and changed Claire's room back to a storage/guest room.  Not out of spite (IMO) but acceptance.  Jody isn't a doormat but she's also ready to treat these young women as capable of making choices.  Did I mention I freakin' love Jody?

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

  He did so in anger with his mother, and he may do so in dissappointment that Patience isn't following "their" plan.

H

By all accounts Missouri was not there for him by his words in Patience.

Quote

JAMES
Growing up with her, she was always on the road, hunting! I spent my entire childhood terrified of monsters, of losing her. I didn’t want that life for you, I… I didn’t want her encouraging-

She left him to hunt. I don't know if he was with his father, or other family members but it sounds to me like Missouri wasn't around for him much as a child and IMO he was determined to not do that with his child. Points for James

His wife's death being blamed on Missouri IMO was not right and he shouldn't have done that unless we learn there is more to the story. He shouldn't have prevented Missouri from spending time with Patience. He was terrified of monsters messing up their lives, like hunting seems to have messed up his childhood. It's unclear but that is the impression I have currently. It sounds to me like he was trusting Missouri's psychic powers and then when she didn't predict or see he's wife's death, he irrationally blamed her. Those are points against James. There is no evidence that James was abusing Patience.

He still did what he was supposed to do to help her get ahead and yes did push her to do her utmost best in school, so that as a young black woman she would be in the best position possible to have as many chances as she could have given that the world isn't great to persons of color a lot of the time.

So for me, this comes down to Patience wanting to help someone with powers and that he's terrified that monsters will be back in their lives and he doesn't want that. Yes, he said a crappy thing and I can't put him in asshole territory just yet. 

[MysteryGuest]

I wouldn't say that James was an asshole.   But having just suffered through the loss of his mother, and the guilt and remorse over cutting her out of their lives, he's now turned right around and threatened to do the exact same thing to his daughter.  He doesn't learn very quickly, does he.  Where he does cross the line into asshole territory is when he expects his child (and yes, she's still a child) to just ignore these horrific visions she has just because it makes it easier for him.  That's bullshit.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Since her father had cut off his own mother without a backward glance, it isn't hard for me to think that he could or would do the same with his daughter.  Not that he didn't love her.  I think he still loved his mother, he just couldn't deal with the monster aspect of her life.  I still think he meant that if she chose to leave, then she needed to stay away.  And because she says "maybe he'll take me back", that just reinforced my opinion. 

I don't know.  There's a difference to me in what James did with his mother than in potentially telling his daughter to never come back.  I thought he cut off his mom in order to protect his daughter.  So what would cutting off his daughter get him?  He wouldn't be protecting anyone but himself, and he didn't come across to me as that self serving.  I'm also in the camp that didn't take Jame's statement as an ultimatum to stay away though, even if that's how Patience interpreted it. 

15 hours ago, SueB said:

Now compare that to Jody's statement of UNCONDITIONAL support that she gave to Alex (in the "THEN" section).  "Whatever you want from me, I'll give it.  If you want, I'm here."  Jody is awesome.  Jody sets boundaries but she also lets them do their own thing.  And heaven knows Claire pushed that envelope so HARD.  I'm not saying Jody is perfect.  But look at what happen with Claire - she was (per Claire) 'overprotective' during hunts.  Well, she took her in the first place!  Then when Claire struck out on her own, Jody always had open arms (and Claire knew this) but after a bit of time, she went ahead and changed Claire's room back to a storage/guest room.  Not out of spite (IMO) but acceptance.  Jody isn't a doormat but she's also ready to treat these young women as capable of making choices.  Did I mention I freakin' love Jody?

Disagree about James - he was an asshole about Patience's visions (or pretty much forcing her to ignore them and pretend she didn't still have them in order for her to feel accepted by him). But Jody is all kinds of awesome!  Thanks for pointing out how turning Claire's old bedroom into storage wasn't a slight against her (like Claire obviously took it) but acceptance of her choices.

[Wayward Son]

I think I'm more forgiving of Claire's behaviour than most during the arrival scene. Yes, there was initial bratiness but I think a part of it was genuine hurt, which is unfair but emotions aren't always logical. However, she did quickly state that she was the one who left and thus Jody using her room for storage was fair. IIRC she never complained about it again suggesting her words were legit. 

[catrox14]

I thought  Claire  was  an ass to Patience.

[takalotti]

This is not my full episode analysis, but I can’t bottle this one comment up for very long.

WTF is up with the rift retcon?

Dean thinks the door is probably gone. Sam mentions the other one stayed open. Dean says yeah, for a few hours but they’d been in not-a-Dino world for two days.

You guys plus Crowley and Cas put together the ingenious plan to lure Lucifer through the rift and then perform a spell to close it and trap him there! Whether or not it makes sense that Crowley would have an oh so handy spell for closing a rift that in theory had never existed before, whether or not the spell actually worked or just coincidentally happened right before the rift was gonna close anyway, that was the plan and as far as Dean knew, it worked.

Why is he now assuming rifts just expire after a few hours if left alone?

And since when does the rift get smaller as it starts to expire? Did the first one do that? I don’t remember seeing that or anyone commenting on that, but I could very well be missing something and will happily respond to evidence with "Oops, please strike my rant from the record then."

Does this mean Crowley sacrificed himself for no good reason? Instead they could have trapped Lucifer in holy oil in the apocalypse world, popped back into our world, and then just waited for the rift to close?

It just stinks of TPTB going "We need this rift to close eventually. Can’t have them doing the spell with a sacrifice every time. Let’s have it just expire! And to ramp up the suspense, let’s have it shrink a bit so that there’s the risk of getting trapped!"

On a related note, I don’t know why the one-passenger rift that Michael created didn’t bother me like this when that episode aired, but it has the same stink. "Can't leave it open forever, don’t wanna let other characters over. Let’s have it only let one being through!" But I can probably hand wave that since Jack didn’t make that one. But Jack made both of the ones Dean and Sam went through!

ARGH!!!

 

Regarding whether or not James issued an ultimatum, the only reason I think he did was the body language of the scene. The words on paper could go either way. But if he meant "If you go, I’m scared that the Hunter life will get you killed and you’ll never come back the way I want you to" I’d expect a more pleading tone, reaching out as a protective gesture, not a controlling gesture. I don’t remember it going down like that. James' body language was more "I can’t say it’s okay for her to go, because I am NOT okay with that. Instead I need to make it clear that I do NOT support this decision because in the past when I’ve put my foot down about not supporting a decision my obedient daughter would fall in line."

Edited January 25, 2018 by takalotti