Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[KingOfHearts]

How did Snow know how horrible Cora was in 2x03? If she thought she was worse than Regina, I think she'd have to know more than just the fact she killed Daniel. To me it seemed like she had a history with Cora, which besides the Stable Boy, doesn't seem possible. Saying Cora is worse than Regina is a pretty bold statement coming from her. Maybe I'm just reading between the lines too much?

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Did Snow know about Cora's collection of hearts?  If Cora was living in a country home with Henry Sr., why did she need to pull out so many people's hearts?  She just did it for kicks in her spare time?  For what purpose?  Why didn't she continue her goal of becoming Queen herself?  Why pin all her hopes on Regina?

 

How did Regina know exactly where to find her father when she visited Wonderland with Jefferson?  Did she visit Wonderland while Cora was ruling?  Why?  

[stealinghome]

To me it seemed like she had a history with Cora, which besides the Stable Boy, doesn't seem possible.

Snow did mention in 2A (can't remember which episode) that she remembered Cora staying up late into the night doing magic as a child. Seems to me the implication has to be that Leopold and Regina had a somewhat lengthy engagement, enough for Young Snow to realize that Cora was seriously creepy.

 

How did Snow know how horrible Cora was in 1x03?

She didn't. Snow didn't know Cora murdered Daniel until 1x21, I don't think.

[Serena]

I think KingOfHearts meant 203, not 103, which is when Snow actually said that line about Cora being worse than Regina. But I remember calling bullshit on it way back then. Obviously, that line was exposition from the writers - they wanted the audience to know Cora was worse than Regina (YMMV is you believe it's true) - but there was no way Snow could know that. She was only aware of one of Cora's crimes, murdering Daniel, which as bad as it is, is nothing compared to Regina's behaviour (all of which she was aware of). So yeah, that line was just bad exposition.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think KingOfHearts meant 203, not 103, which is when Snow actually said that line about Cora being worse than Regina.

Serena is right. I changed it now. Sorry for the typo, everyone!

 

 

Obviously, that line was exposition from the writers - they wanted the audience to know Cora was worse than Regina

 

You know if they would have toned down Regina, that line would have held some weight. But the way I see it, the only difference between Cora and Regina is Cora was just slightly wiser and less of a blind fury. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Maybe Snow's logic was that, if Regina was so terrible and yet deathly afraid of Cora, Cora must be worse?

But yeah, I agree that Regina seems to have been worse on the whole. I could accept Cora as worse up until 'The Evil Queen,' but that village massacre (plus the curse) put Regina over the top.

[Camera One]

Cora murdered the entire Safe Haven (there were children running around), so they're pretty equal in the long run.  Unless they share more about what Cora actually did during her time as Henry Sr.'s husband.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

Forgive me if we've covered this one and I've just forgotten (because there are so.many.timeline.questions in S3), but there was a discussion about how we never saw Neal spend any time with Snowing et al, in part because they killed him off so early in the arc, and it made me think about the Missing Year.

 

If we assume it was a year, a proper 12-month year, that everyone was in the EF, and we use Snow's pregnancy as a guide, does that mean there's a 3- or 4- month period when Belle and Nealfire were probably with the rest of the group at the palace?

 

It couldn't have taken them that long or been that difficult to travel to the Dark Palace to resurrect Rumpel (gads, the sentences this show makes us write!) since a heavily-pregnant Snow made the trip with the rest of them in "A Curious Thing." In that same episode, we see Belle riding back to the palace to tell Snowing and Regina what's just happened, and we know Snow is in very early pregnancy. Then we flash forward "eight months," during which time they all apparently sat around twiddling their thumbs and watching her gestate.

 

It's one of those annoying gaps in storytelling - did Belle and Neal just decide to go off and bring the Dark One back to life without telling anyone? That's kind of a big deal. Neal, of course, wants the Dark One to help him get back to Emma and Henry, but Belle seems to want him to help defeat Wicked....but did Wicked actually do anything to make her fearsome enough to warrant trying to resurrect what might not have been Rumpel at all, but just an uncontrollable dark power that put them at even more peril?

 

"Quiet Minds," man. Crappiest storytelling I've seen outside "Sharknado."

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's one of those annoying gaps in storytelling - did Belle and Neal just decide to go off and bring the Dark One back to life without telling anyone? That's kind of a big deal.

I think they did because Snowing was against it. I don't believe they waited too long into the Missing Year to do it - about a few weeks or so. The Missing Year had to have been close to 9 months in length, otherwise Snow would have been three months overdue. So, there was the first month, then the eight month jump.

 

I believe Snow became pregnant not long after they got there, because she told Charming she was in The Tower. In that episode, Regina gives Robin arrows to exchange for helping her break into the castle, so I'm assuming it wasn't long after that.

Edited September 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I believe Snow became pregnant not long after they got there, because she told Charming she was in The Tower. In that episode, Regina gives Robin arrows to exchange for helping her break into the castle, so I'm assuming it wasn't long after that.

But wasn't "The Tower" labeled as 3 months into the Missing Year? I thought the Missing Year was a full 12 months, and Snow became pregnant at the 3-month mark.

 

I think even this timeline is weird, though, because the Belle and Neal flashbacks in 3x15 are labeled "One Year Ago." So apparently they went pretty immediately to Rumpel's castle after the initial storming of Knifingham Palace, but it seems to have been some amount of time in between that and when Belle tells them about Rumpel and Zelena in 3x19 (Charming's "When you and Neal disappeared we feared the worst" makes it sound like they were gone for more than a few days--more like weeks). Then 8 months later is the council scene/busting into Rumpel's place/the new curse.

[Jean]

This thread should be defunct. Cause of this gem:

A&E : We don't care about stuff like the timeline. Don't pay any attention to it cause we sure don't.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But wasn't "The Tower" labeled as 3 months into the Missing Year? I thought the Missing Year was a full 12 months, and Snow became pregnant at the 3-month mark.

Regina waited 3 months to give Robin his reward? If she wanted him gone, that's just weird. I believe it was labeled nine months ago. In A Curious Thing, when Zelena comes, it seems Snow has already been pregnant a while. It's not just because she's pregnant irl, but Zelena puts her hands around her stomach to feel the baby and says "This will do quite nicely", as if she could visibly tell she was pregnant. How were they able to gauge it was a whole year if they were just going by Snow's pregnancy?

Edited September 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

How were they able to gauge it was a whole year if they were just going by Snow's pregnancy?

I think David and Mary Margaret didn't know that a whole year had passed, just that some time had obviously passed since the last thing they remembered. It was Emma and Hook who knew a year had passed.

 

I guess Belle took her time getting back from wherever they went to raise the Dark One if she and Neal had headed quickly for Rumple's old palace after arrival. Or they pulled numbers from a hat to show how far back they were.

 

This may be another one of those shows where I find myself shouting frequently at the television, "Calendars are your friend!" Mapping it out and keeping track of it saves so much trouble in the long term when you're doing a timeline-intensive plot.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think David and Mary Margaret didn't know that a whole year had passed, just that some time had obviously passed since the last thing they remembered. It was Emma and Hook who knew a year had passed.

Actually, David and MM were the first to mention a whole year had gone. Here's the dialog:

 

 

David: Emma, this curse we don’t know who did it. Or why. All we know is our last year it's been wiped away.

Emma: Wiped away?

David: All we remember is saying good-bye to you. It feels like yesterday.

Emma: But if you can't remember, then how do you know that it's been a -

Mary Margaret: Emma? Emma.

Emma: year.

David: As you can see, a lot's happened.

Mary Margaret: We just don’t know what. The whole year is gone.

Emma: Who the hell would have done this?

[stealinghome]

I think David and Mary Margaret didn't know that a whole year had passed, just that some time had obviously passed since the last thing they remembered. It was Emma and Hook who knew a year had passed.

No, David knew in 3x12 that a year had passed. But that doesn't mean much--presumably Storybrooke has calendars and their phones have the date/time, etc, so all they'd have to do was look at one and say "Shit, it's been a year! We disappeared in 2012 and it's now 2013!"

 

In A Curious Thing, when Zelena comes, it seems Snow has already been pregnant a while. It's not just because she's pregnant irl, but Zelena puts her hands around her stomach to feel the baby and says "This will do quite nicely", as if she could visibly tell she was pregnant.

I don't disagree, but the council scene is very explicitly labeled "Eight Months Later" from when Zelena popped up and turned Aurora/Philip into flying monkeys. So Snow must only have been 1 month into her pregnancy at the time of 3x19's opening scene, when everyone's arguing over whether to announce the pregnancy and Belle comes in with Rumpel/Neal news.

 

I think what confuses the issue is that Goodwin was visibly pregnant by the time they filmed 3x19. But at that point, Snow-the-character can't have been showing, since the argument is over whether to tell people--Snowing seem only to have told their intimates. And iirc, didn't Philip and Aurora tell Zelena about Baby Snowflake? [ETA: okay, I just watched the relevant 3x19 clip, and it's not explicit, but it does seem to me that the implication is that Philip and Aurora told Zelena about Snowflake.]

 

 

Another major plot hole: why Zelena didn't turn everyone but Snow into a flying monkey during the balcony scene...or kill them while they were immobilized....

Edited September 23, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

The question really lies on Quiet Minds. It supposedly started in the first month, so Belle didn't return until the third month. What in the world was she doing all that time? Did it take a really long time to get back from the Dark One's Vault or whatever?

 

 

I could see Belle trying to do something to try to free Rumple and Neal before going back to Snowing. But I suspect it's more like pulling random numbers out of a hat

It's one of those "we just don't know" situations that just spirals into a void.

Edited September 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

I could see Belle trying to do something to try to free Rumple and Neal before going back to Snowing. But I suspect it's more like pulling random numbers out of a hat - they have a very, ahem, casual approach to the passage and linearity of time.

[Shanna Marie]

Oh, I'd forgotten that David specifically said a year. That's weird, since an advanced pregnancy would only mean about nine months. Though if the Storybrooke calendars were up to date, I guess that would have worked, too.

 

But wasn't there a later scene, in the next episode maybe, where Hook confirms how much time passed, or did he just confirm that he was certain they left Storybrooke and were back in the Enchanted Forest?

 

(And I just watched these episodes, so I don't know why I'm suddenly so hazy.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

Though if the Storybrooke calendars were up to date, I guess that would have worked, too.

It's a possibility, though I'd doubt it, there's really no proof to prove either way. I just thought they were judging by the pregnancy because that's the only thing that's mentioned.

Edited September 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Who knew it was so difficult to map out the plot in a single year.  Maybe by a "year" they meant 10 months and was rounding up?

[Mari]

Well, since the Enchanted Forest is in a "timeless" place, maybe pregnancies there are timey-wimey as well.  Like soap opera pregnancies, they can take anywhere from 5-11.5 months.

[Camera One]

And they show the same day they realize they're pregnant.  Or actually, before.  Even in flashbacks.

[Rumsy4]

When David tells Emma that they knew a year had gone by because Snow's pregnant, I didn't take it literally. They probably woke up in storybrooke, realized that Snow was near her due date, and checked their calendars. 

 

It's quite plausible that it took Belle three months to get to the Dark One's Vault and come back. We have no idea where it is located. 

 

I think if they had hidden Goodwin's real life baby bump in The Tower more effectively, there would have been less confusion. As to why David and Robin were having a conversation about the gold-tipped arrows three months after they had arrived in the EF, who knows? Maybe Regina gave it him as a delayed gift. Maybe David and Robin never really interacted much in that time. Or, as is most likely, the writers just forced it awkwardly into that moment as a segway for the Nightroot conversation. OUAT is like a virtual reality where things only happen when we are watching the show. At other times, the characters remain frozen. That's why timelines make no sense. :-p

[kili]

We know Smee was brought over by the curse, and he mentioned that he and the crew had been talking about getting back into piracy.

 

I just watched this episode and before (in my answer above). I thought Smee was talking about the crew that Hook inherited from Blackbeard when he took over the ship...but that's not possible. Smee wouldn't know who those guys were and those Blackbeard guys have no clue they were ever on the Jolly Roger. At that point, only Hook remembers the missing year. Smee went from being a rat in Storybrooke to being a man in Storybrooke. Blackbeard's crew went from being on some ship in the Enchanted Forrest to being in Storybrooke (they would have found and taken over the Jolly during the missing year).

 

Thus, Smee could only be talking about Hook's original crew members from before the first curse. Those are the only guys he knows that would think they should pirate-up together on the Jolly.  But Hook seemed to have ditched them by that point already (busy hanging around with just Cora). Or is there kind of a pirate's union and everybody knows everybody else? Blackbeard not being there, his crew are trying to hook up with the one pirate captain they know?

[Shanna Marie]

Thus, Smee could only be talking about Hook's original crew members from before the first curse. Those are the only guys he knows that would think they should pirate-up together on the Jolly.  But Hook seemed to have ditched them by that point already (busy hanging around with just Cora). Or is there kind of a pirate's union and everybody knows everybody else? Blackbeard not being there, his crew are trying to hook up with the one pirate captain they know?

It's like a school reunion! These guys who used to work together, however long ago, ran into each other in this strange new place, started talking about old times, and as you tend to do at reunions (especially when alcohol is involved), they got all excited about getting the old crew back together again and hitting the high seas as a crew once more. That's about the only way to explain it.

[Rumsy4]

I'm sure the writers didn't think about whether the pirates were the original ones from the Jolly, or Blackbeard's crew. They just wanted Smee to highlight the fact that Hook wasn't interested in being a pirate anymore, and that the Jolly Roger was gone.

Smee's idea doesn't even make sense--they would be captured and thrown into prison if they tried piracy in the waters of Maine. Unless the pirates thought they would join up with the somali pirates somehow? The whole thing was idiotic! lol

[Aliasscape]

This thread should be defunct. Cause of this gem:

A&E : We don't care about stuff like the timeline. Don't pay any attention to it cause we sure don't.

That was obvious in season 1. When Regina had traded away the Dark Curse for her sleeping potion to put on the apple, when Rumpel supposedly put the true love potion on the parchment paper after finishing the dark curse. A true love potion that wasn't made back when Regina was trading things for the apple. And then all their lies about Emma being 18 when she was with Neal but having a juvenile record and Henry being 10 before she turned 28.

 

That Rumpel is ancient does have some in show evidence. He fought in the first Ogres war (that lasted 14 years minimum), Granny's father and brothers fought in the second Ogres war, and Rumpel gave Jimminy Cricket the stuff to turn his parents into puppets back when Geppetto was a child and he's now Granny's age or older.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Aliasscape

[Jean]

I think the 300 years thing first came from Robert and the writers ran with it. Robert said something like he plays Rumple as if he's 300 years old because he's seen and done everything so that nothing fazes or touches him anymore. I think there's been some onscreen references thereafter from Rumple, Hook and/or Neal. Maybe even Pan? Not the exact exact number of 300years but they'll throw "hundreds of years" in there.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought it was about 100-150 years between Bae's departure to Neverland and his arrival to the Land Without Magic, since he lands in 19th century England. I'm not a fan of the "different worlds have different timelines" theory, so I'm always trying to avoid it. 

 

As for Alice feeling like she's only been gone for hours, I have no real canon answer. If you read the books, you know how crazy Wonderland is. The setting would change without moving, and running would keep you in the same place, per the Red Queen. It plays with your sensory. So, my theory is she felt like it had only been hours, when it reality it had been much longer. I have no real basis for that though, so it's not something to go to.

 

I want to know why it took Rumple centuries to get his curse going.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

fwiw, I know Jane Espenson said on twitter at one point that Rumpel's roughly 300 years old.

[Camera One]

I thought it was about 100-150 years between Bae's departure to Neverland and his arrival to the Land Without Magic, since he lands in 19th century England. I'm not a fan of the "different worlds have different timelines" theory, so I'm always trying to avoid it.

 

Wendy stated that she felt like she spent a long time in Neverland even though she was only away for one night.  

 

The line was:

Baelfire: Just... the night.

Wendy: It felt like so much longer. As though time works differently in Neverland.

 

But I think in 3A, it was implied that time was actually travelling at the same rate in Neverland vs. Storybrooke.  

 

Let's say Bae dropped into 1870 England when he was 14, and then went to Neverland.  If Bae was 14, and Neal looks around 35, this means after escaping Neverland, he spent 21 years on Earth and he aged during this time.  So he came back from Neverland around 1991.  So 1991-1870 = he spent around 120 years in Neverland given these assumptions.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Let's say Bae dropped into 1870 England when he was 14, and then went to Neverland.  If Bae was 14, and Neal looks around 35, this means after escaping Neverland, he spent 21 years on Earth and he aged during this time.  So he came back from Neverland around 1991.  So 1991-1870 = he spent around 120 years in Neverland given these assumptions.

The birth year on his wanted poster was 1977, so your 1991 date is most likely correct. When Bae meets the Darlings, it seems to be close to the turn of the current. It has to be after 1858, because Big Ben is present.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

One possible handwave for the time discrepancies in Neverland, with time not mapping to our world in the Darlings' day but being pretty consistent with our world in the present (though I guarantee this is more thought than the writers put into it) is that the dying of magic was making time move more normally in Neverland. When Bae first arrived, there was still daylight. In the present, it's always night, and magic is dying to the point that Pan needs the heart to sacrifice it to save himself. So back then one night in our world could be weeks in Neverland, but now time is moving closer to real time.

 

Though this doesn't explain why it's still been apparently around 300 years for Rumple, who wasn't in Neverland.

[Mari]

Why do there seem to be so many prince and princesses in the Enchanted Forest who do not seem to have siblings, but so few kings and queens?

[Camera One]

Maybe some of their fathers/mothers are still reigning?  For example, King Midas is presumably still alive so it's Princess Abigail.  I would presume the same for Prince Eric and Prince Thomas.  In Cinderella, the father of the Prince was still alive and well.  

 

One weird one is Princess Aurora, who presumably should be Queen of her kingdom since they rebuilt her castle but there was no mention of her parents.  

[KAOS Agent]

If Storybrooke doesn't appear on maps and people are supposedly unable to find it, how is it that Emma used GPS to locate Henry's phone at the docks?

[Camera One]

Her White Magic powers all electronic devices she uses.

[KingOfHearts]

Why hasn't anyone else discovered Storybrooke since the curse broke?

[kili]

Why do there seem to be so many prince and princesses in the Enchanted Forest who do not seem to have siblings, but so few kings and queens?

 

Perhaps some of the regions aren't kingdoms, but principalities? Like Monaco and Liechtenstein? They are ruled by princes that never become kings (e.g. Prince Ranier and Princess Grace of Monaco).

 

Snow should really be Queen since her father was a King, but Charming will always be a Prince in that kingdom (Prince Phillip is married to Queen Elizabeth II of England). He might be King in King George's kingdom since he took that over, but perhaps he just made it part of Snow's kingdom or not taken on the title.

[KingOfHearts]

Why hasn't Regina locked her vault? Anyone can just waltz in there and start blowing the town up with all sorts of dangerous magic.

Edited September 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[NotBothered]

I am so confused by the dagger mythology now.  Does the master have to be holding it to have power?  If it's physically on Belle's person is that enough? If they just put it in the safe, would Belle still have control over him?  Does a directive (No killing) stay active until it's countermanded?

[KingOfHearts]

I don't get why Rumple was able to take the dagger from Belle. I thought the Dark One was prevented from taking it? I'm talking about when he switched them originally.

[Rumsy4]

I don't get why Rumple was able to take the dagger from Belle. I thought the Dark One was prevented from taking it? I'm talking about when he switched them originally.

 

Belle gave it back to him. As long as he possesses the Dagger, he is in full control. And now, Belle possesses it. But I'm not sure how much control she has because Rumple just put it in her handbag, and he could take it out without her permission.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle gave it back to him.

Then Rumple gave it back to her in the same scene as his proposal, though.

[kili]

But I'm not sure how much control she has because Rumple just put it in her handbag, and he could take it out without her permission.

 

Rumple seemed to think that he could take the dagger from Zeelena when she had it on her (in her boot? strapped to her leg?) and she certainly acted quickly to prevent it (the scene after the meat pies where he starts kissing her). That tells me if you aren't actively waving the thing around, the Dark One has a chance to take it. Of course, that doesn't explain why Zoso didn't poof into the duke's castle and take the dagger. I suppose that he could have really wanted to die or perhaps the Duke had given him an order not to do that.

 

On an another question: Why did Snow's curse resturn Sydney to the underground cell in the hospital? When Regina cast the spell, she got to dictate where people went. Why would Snow do that? Or was it woven into the curse by Regina? If Smee had returned to being a rat, I could see that Snow's curse just returned everybody to the way they were, but Smee was very much a person in the second curse.

[Rumsy4]

Then Rumple gave it back to her in the same scene as his proposal, though.

 

That's when he switched the Real Dagger for the fake, though. He gave her a fake.

 

And I think the wielder of the Dagger needs to give a specific command that the Dark One cannot take it back. I don't think Rumple could have taken the Dagger from Zelena.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's when he switched the Real Dagger for the fake, though. He gave her a fake.

How was he able to switch it without her seeing it though...? I guess magic clouds only materialize when it's convenient.

 

 

I don't think Rumple could have taken the Dagger from Zelena.

He tried to, but magic prevented him to. Zoso might not have been able to take it back from the Duke either. Again, it's another area the show is shady in. It's not explained.

Edited September 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

How was he able to switch it without her seeing it though...? I guess magic clouds only materialize when it's convenient.

 

I wish I could insert the gif of Rumpel saying, "Magic, dearie!" hehe Apparently, he learnt to do that kind of super-stealthy switcheroo from Pan, when he pulled a similar switcheroo (Follow the Lady) with Pandora's Box. 

[kili]

How was he able to switch it without her seeing it though...?

 

He told Zeleena that he used the only useful thing his father had ever taught him...."Follow the Lady" - good old slight of hand.  I've watched that scene to specifically watch for him using slight of hand and I don't see where he could have done it the old fashioned way (and that is an awfully bulky object to do it with).

 

ETA: That's true, I forgot that Pan did that with the box. But didn't he say that he used Neverland magic to do that (believing in something enough)? Would that have worked in Storybrooke? It seems that there is usually some hand movement or poof of smoke to signify the arrival or departure of items in Storybrooke.

Edited September 30, 2014 by kili

[Rumsy4]

ETA: That's true, I forgot that Pan did that with the box. But didn't he say that he used Neverland magic to do that (believing in something enough)? Would that have worked in Storybrooke? It seems that there is usually some hand movement or poof of smoke to signify the arrival or departure of items in Storybrooke.

 

Well... Rumple is the Dark One, after all. I guess he learnt something from his papa and found a way. :-p