Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Shanna Marie]

Did they say someone who has been to the Underworld and returned, or someone who was dead and came back to life? If the former, the Nevengers can make tons of money selling their blood at a premium once they get back to Storybrooke. Everyone can go visit their loved ones. Daily tours can be arranged.

I thought it was someone who died. So Hook could go into business once he comes back, and then he wouldn't have to worry about getting a job or finding a new career.

[Camera One]

The only thing is it might be a one-way trip.  Most people don't have the luck of our heroes, who will probably trip their way to the exit.

 

Why aren't the Dead People swarming and attacking the visitors for their Breath of the Living?

Edited April 12, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

Was Red stuck as a Wolf or something?  Why would she continue to go after Snow, Emma, Hook and Co. as a Wolf, banging on the Vault door?  It makes no sense.

 

I'm still confused as to whether Red has control when she's a wolf. She didn't when she ate her boyfriend (she didn't even remember killing all of those people). She was worried in S2 Storybrooke, but then in the S3, they used the wolf to distract the guard and weren't worried about her attacking them. So why would she attack Snow at all? Does she have control or not? 

[andromeda331]

She learned how to gain control during the episode with her mother in Child of the Moon in her flashback in season

two and also at the end of the episode too in present day.

[Camera One]

She was in Wolf Amnesia Mode in "The Bear King" due to the Witch's spell.  Who knows what the excuse is this time.  How exactly did Snow see that it was Red again?  I just remember seeing a jet of colour as Regina and Emma's magic hit.  I think someone in the episode thread postulated Red wasn't attacking Snow; she was just greeting like a dog jumping on its owner?  How did they outrun a Wolf?  Or did Emma magick them to the Vault?

Edited April 12, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

So why would she attack Snow at all? Does she have control or not?

 

I didn't think she was attacking her. I thought her "behavior" was closer to a dog that's extremely happy to see someone he hasn't seen in a long time. It reminded me of a cartoon.

[Shanna Marie]

In the "Her Handsome Hero" episode thread, there was concern about who'll take care of the dogs now that Gaston's gone. That reminded me of some questions I've had about animals on this show, in general.

 

How did the curse affect animals? There are dogs in Storybrooke (as we saw at the animal shelter when David was working there). Were they pets from the Enchanted Forest brought over by the curse? If so, did they get to stay with their owners, or did Regina separate them like she did other families? Did they get cursed doggie identities so they didn't remember their original owners? When the curse broke, did they try to get back with their people, or did they remember them by that time? Or were they creations of the curse as part of the backdrop of the town? What makes me curious is Pongo -- was he made by the curse? We've never seen him in the Enchanted Forest with Jiminy, so either he's someone else's dog back in the Enchanted Forest, or he's part of the curse.

 

Then there are those who are people in Storybrooke and animals in the Enchanted Forest. We know that Archie/Jiminy is really human and just transformed into a cricket (and maybe he should consider giving that up by this time, since Gepetto is now older than he is and they've had a human friendship all that time in Storybrooke). What about Gus-Gus, who became human in Storybrooke? Was he a human transformed into a mouse, turned back into a human by the curse, or was he just a mouse back home?

 

That might explain the lack of horses. I'm really worried about the horses. You know there had to be a lot of horses in that world, since that's the main form of transportation, but there's only been that one mostly empty stable in Storybrooke. So what happened to the horses? Did they turn into people in the curse? Were they left behind for the ogres to eat?

 

Speaking of horses, how did Hook learn so much about them (the way he was acting when he was taking Emma on that horseback ride in 5A)? He's spent his whole life from childhood on at sea, so even if horses are the main form of land transportation, it doesn't seem like he'd have been around them much. A deckhand slave probably didn't get a lot of shore leave, and we didn't see any horses in Neverland. Is this yet another thing we're assuming the navy taught him? Or is it something he picked up between Neverland and the curse, when he was on land looking around for ways to kill Rumple? I guess he could have picked it up when he was posing as a blacksmith, but then you'd think he'd have needed to already know something about horses to pose as a blacksmith.

 

On a totally different note, how old is baby Snowflake by now? Regina was calling Henry 12 just before the baby was born and now they're saying he's 13, so either he had a birthday we missed or he's aging faster than the baby, who's still looking like a newborn. 4A was about 2 weeks (based on clues about passage of time in Arendelle after they were unfrozen). There were six weeks between 4A and 4B, so that puts him at about two months. There might have been another month in 4B, so three months, and then all of 5A was about two months (six weeks in Camelot plus about two weeks after they got back to Storybrooke). So that should be about 4 months, which is no longer just a blanket-wrapped bundle. By that age, they interact and play and move around a lot. I was thinking about that when watching Grimm tonight, where they have a baby who's incredibly expressive. He actually seems to interact with the other cast members when they hold him, and he seems to be in the age range that Snowflake is supposed to be. But Snowflake looks like he's the same size and development level as Pistachio, who's just a few days old.

[Camera One]

What about Gus-Gus, who became human in Storybrooke? Was he a human transformed into a mouse, turned back into a human by the curse, or was he just a mouse back home?

 

My assumption was talking animals in the Enchanted Forest turned into humans in Storybrooke.  Not that we have actually seen talking animals in the Enchanted Forest, except for human-turned-into-animals like Archie.

 

But Snowflake looks like he's the same size and development level as Pistachio, who's just a few days old.

 

Child development works differently here.  Or being part of the Time Travel Curse delayed his growth spurt.  Or real reason: A&E just don't care.

[KingOfHearts]

Is Pongo from the Enchanted Forest? Is dog form his only form?

Edited April 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Good point... since Pongo talked, then he should have become a human.  Hmm... in which realm did Cruella terrorize Jim and Anita and their dogs?  Or the other way around...

[daxx]

Given Killian's age when his father abandoned him he could have already established some horsemanship skills, those don't go away with disuse. I haven't had a horse in 25 years but I have an immediate rapport with them and wouldn't have any trouble bridling and saddling or picking the hooves of a willing well behaved horse.

[Shanna Marie]

Given Killian's age when his father abandoned him he could have already established some horsemanship skills, those don't go away with disuse.

Okay, that actually works for me. If he was exposed to horses and learned about them as a young child, he'd also be more inclined to seek them out. A merchant ship might have occasionally carried horses, and there would have been horses on the docks. Then having horse skills might have been used in the navy, like him being used as a messenger when they're at port. So that's my new head canon. Plus, Killian has been shown to be inquisitive and curious. He doesn't like to look like he doesn't know about things, so he figures them out. If he ever needed to do anything with horses, he'd have wanted to know about them.

[Camera One]

The horse thing can easily be explained.  He was alive for so long.  He didn't even have to learn it when he was young.  

[Shanna Marie]

The horse thing can easily be explained.  He was alive for so long.

The reason I started thinking about this was that most of his very long life was spent in Neverland, where we never saw any horses. Though maybe we can pretend that there were horses there during his main time there, since the entire place is supposed to be a boy's playground, and what would that be without horses? We just didn't see them during the Neverland arc because they were created by magic and the magic was dying by then. And also it was all filmed on a soundstage.

 

Is Pongo from the Enchanted Forest? Is dog form his only form?

We need to start campaigning for a Pongo-centric episode.

[Writing Wrongs]

Watching the deleted scene from Season 4 of Regina going in to Any Given Sundae and asking who the hell Ingrid was made me think. I find it hard to believe that Regina knew every single person in Storybrooke and personally handed out all their curses to fit their personalities or whatever.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Watching the deleted scene from Season 4 of Regina going in to Any Given Sundae and asking who the hell Ingrid was made me think. I find it hard to believe that Regina knew every single person in Storybrooke and personally handed out all their curses to fit their personalities or whatever.

Well, in a Groundhog Day town, wouldn't Ingrid suddenly working the ice cream shop on Main Street be suspicious? Regina kept tabs on everyone for 18 years prior to Ingrid. Probably even more so there because the shop was run by Dopey, one of Snow's closest affiliates. Regina was so paranoid in S1 and 2x18 that it makes no sense to me that Ingrid inserted herself undetected.

 

I don't believe Regina personally mandated every curse for every person. The Curse itself did most of the work. She had picked a few certain ones to control, like Rumple and Jefferson. 

[Camera One]

Well, in a Groundhog Day town, wouldn't Ingrid suddenly working the ice cream shop on Main Street be suspicious? Regina kept tabs on everyone for 18 years prior to Ingrid. Probably even more so there because the shop was run by Dopey, one of Snow's closest affiliates.

 

I don't remember exactly when that flashback was supposed to have taken place, but maybe there had just been a lot of minor changes once Emma was in town for awhile, that Regina didn't go and investigate each one?

[andromeda331]

Now you guys have me wondering about the horses. Did he grow up with him or learn about horses during the last

hundred or so years? If it was after he was an adult was it away to prepare for his revenge against Rumple or something

that came up during an adventure or work for Pan?  Or did he grow up with horses and then adjust to being on the

merchant ship? It would be kind of fun to find out and maybe fill in a little what all he'd been up during his very long

lifetime.     

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't remember exactly when that flashback was supposed to have taken place, but maybe there had just been a lot of minor changes once Emma was in town for awhile, that Regina didn't go and investigate each one?

I doubt Regina wouldn't have visited the ice cream parlor between 2001 and 2011, though. She probably took Henry out for ice cream. Knowing her, she probably made the rounds out of sheer boredom. I watched the deleted scene, and it looks like Ingrid had just taken over the shop. (She explains to Dopey that Regina needs to be unaware, then takes his memories away.) Ingrid probably started the shop sooner than later so she could be ready for Emma. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

So the ice cream scene was pre-Emma?  I assumed it was after Emma got to town, so Regina would have assumed it was one of the Emma-caused changes.  But yeah, if it was before Emma, Regina should have been super suspicious.  I mean, she bumped into the same people every single day walking in to work.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So the ice cream scene was pre-Emma?

I'm pretty sure that's what it implies.

 

 

But yeah, if it was before Emma, Regina should have been super suspicious.

 

I'm glad they cut it, because Ingrid mentions something about how someone must have cursed her in a past life. Cursed Storybrookers were weird, but that should have been a red flag if Regina had never seen that person before. It's all very awkward and there's no reason she would have bought it.

[Camera One]

How did Ruby and Mulan get to Oz?  How can you "follow a scent" to a completely different realm which requires a portal?  And then the scene completely disappears once you're there.

[YaddaYadda]

How did Ruby and Mulan get to Oz?  How can you "follow a scent" to a completely different realm which requires a portal?  And then the scene completely disappears once you're there.

 

In Heart of Gold, they showed a "permanent" portal between Oz and the Enchanted Forest. Unless the writers forgot all about it, that's how they got there.

 

My moment was when Zelena went to see Hades. I'm assuming she took the elevator? You know the one that Regina had to write a spell for the doors to open only to be met by a brick wall the previous episode.

 

My question is, was this a continuity issue, or did Hades protect his elevator against the Nevengers only?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Where does [Ruby Slippers'] flashback fit in with the Dorothy/Scarecrow one?

Our Decay had to be at least pre-3x12 because Zelena was still attempting to enact her time travel spell. So they're very far apart. My question is - how did Dorothy get the "love of the people" with Zelena unawares? Zelena's got spies in other realms yet not in her own domain?

 

 

In Heart of Gold, they showed a "permanent" portal between Oz and the Enchanted Forest. Unless the writers forgot all about it, that's how they got there.

So there's a permanent portal to Oz from the Enchanted Forest, yet Snow had never heard of it and Belle had only read about it from the book? If travel was so easy, why did Zelena never go to EF to kill Regina or muahahaha in her face? Was she afraid of Rumple? (Even though Rumple was afraid of her...)

 

 

How did Ruby and Mulan get to Oz?  How can you "follow a scent" to a completely different realm which requires a portal?  And then the scene completely disappears once you're there.

I want to know how Ruby got to the freaking Underworld. She said she used a "tracking spell", but as seen in 3x17, it doesn't teleport you to whatever realm the person is in. Is there some kind of special Ozian magic? Realm-hopping seems to be pretty commonplace there.

 

 

Maybe Dorothy got their love when Zelena left for Storybrooke?  Though I suppose she already had their love way back in the Scarecrow flashback.

I can see her having their love in 5x18, after Zelena had been away for so long, but not in 5x16.

Edited April 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Okay, so Dorothy has been around Oz for a long time then.  

 

Maybe Dorothy got their love when Zelena left for Storybrooke?  Though I suppose she already had their love way back in the Scarecrow flashback. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Anyone want to take a guess at how old Toto is? He should be dead about three times over if Dorothy got him after returning to Kansas the first time which was pre-curse. 

[KingOfHearts]

Anyone want to take a guess at how old Toto is? He should be dead about three times over if Dorothy got him after returning to Kansas the first time which was pre-curse.

A&E: "Auntie Em cast her own dome in Fictional Kansas."

Edited April 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If The Apprentice is in Underbrooke with unfinished business, would Merlin be there too?  It would make no sense if Merlin moves on while The Apprentice is stuck.  

[Mari]

Well, as charismatic as Merlin's actor was, very little else about Merlin made sense.  Maybe he's in the special hell, because he talked in the theater?  

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe when Merlin drank from the Holy Grail, Zeus blessed him and he got a free ride to Olympus.

[KAOS Agent]

What would've happened if Cora and Pan didn't have unfinished business (what is their unfinished business anyway?) such that a stop in the Underworld was unnecessary? Would they have moved on to a happy place or would they be somewhere else being punished for sucking as human beings and never repenting?

[Camera One]

That's what I wonder.  It looks like there is no justice at all.  Villains and regular people and heroes end up in the same place.  "Unfinished business" is vague as hell and covers a lot of different possibilities.  It is unclear if people were able to successfully work through their unfinished business and got to move on, prior to the living heroes' arrival.  If so, how?  

Edited April 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

How could James' unfinished business be David's success and fame? None of that happened until James was already dead and presumably in Underbrooke.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Mari

[Curio]

Would anyone be on board with updating the title of this thread to: "Continuity, Unanswered Questions, and Timeline Headaches: Your Questions are Pointless" ...?

[KingOfHearts]

There's a strange bit of continuity (or lack thereof) with the death of Zelena's adoptive mother. In 3x16, her father says, "After all these years, now that your mother’s gone, I can finally tell you the truth." But in 5x19, he says, "Your mother's not here to protect you any more." In the 5x19 flashbacks, Zelena is about 13 or 14 years old. When she meets Rumple in 3x16, she's got to be at least in her mid 20s. With a ~12 year gap, I believe that's a continuity error.

Edited May 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I didn't listen to that line carefully.  I assumed Zelena's adoptive mother was away temporarily on an errand or something.   If that's what he actually said, that's a blatant continuity error.   She was clearly an adult in that shaving scene in Season 3.

[Camera One]

Will we ever find out what Dorothy was doing with The Scarecrow in Oz?  Did she also meet the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion?  Where is Glinda now?  How did Dorothy win the love of the people of Oz?   What was Aunt Em's unfinished business?  

Why and when did Cora end her ambitions to be Queen herself?  What happened to "Prince" Jonathan?  

[KingOfHearts]

Has anyone noticed that after Zelena leaves her father, it's perpetually night time in Oz? There isn't a single day scene post-3x16 flashbacks. What caused that?

Edited May 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Probably CGI issues.  Maybe it's easier to create that green glow of Oz in a darker environment.  Maybe to make Oz look like a more sinister place?

[KingOfHearts]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Probably CGI issues.  Maybe it's easier to create that green glow of Oz in a darker environment.  Maybe to make Oz look like a more sinister place?

I was pretty sure it was the CGI. I'm trying to headcanon a non-meta reason for it.

[Camera One]

I'm trying to headcanon a non-meta reason for it.

Nimue's green skin made her feel a kinship with Zelena, so she left some of the "Darkness" in Oz as a gift.  This flashback is currently scheduled for Season 10 Episode 7.

[Curio]

Quote

I finally understand what the Apprentice meant. I'm gonna write the stories as they are, and I'll start with Hades. I'm gonna use the pen the correct way... To re-create his story.

So...did they totally drop this idea? Has Henry written a single word of Hades's story? (He certainly didn't start with Hades, that's for sure.)

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

So...did they totally drop this idea? Has Henry written a single word of Hades's story? (He certainly didn't start with Hades, that's for sure.)

Once again, the heroes didn't do squat. They couldn't escape the Underworld until Rumple kidnapped Zelena and Hades opened a portal for them. Saving the souls, though it helped people, didn't bring the hope needed to defeat Hades either. The plot pretty much did everything for them.

[YaddaYadda]

The Underworld was underwhelming because nothing happened. The heroes spun their wheels, and that was the end of that. There were just a lot of useless episodes that added zero to the overall plot.

[Curio]

It's ridiculous that Graham wasn't even mentioned once in the Underworld. Not even a name drop on a tombstone to show he went to heaven?

[snarkastic]

I just realized Henry took the 'dead' pen with him through the portal, back to the land of the living, without having to pay any price to 'resurrect' it.

Spoiler

Maybe that's why Robin bites it

[KingOfHearts]

So why are Geppetto's parents in Gold's Underworld shop?

[YaddaYadda]

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

So why are Geppetto's parents in Gold's Underworld shop?

Don't you know, everything in there belongs to Rumple and is part of his past.

Geppetto's parents, Emma's baby mobile, Sneezy's stein....

[Camera One]

Because Hades wanted to recreate every little detail because all Zelena ever wanted was her very own Storybrooke.  

Edited May 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Because Hades wanted to recreate every little detail because all Zelena ever wanted was her very own Storybrooke.  

Though there's little indication that Zelena knew anything about what the curse would actually do. She just wanted to be Rumple's first choice -- really, to be anyone's choice for anything. Storybrooke is a weird seduction tactic.