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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

I think part of the problem is the writers are acting as though it's an established show from the beginning because the majority of the characters have appeared on Arrow or The Flash. To those coming in fresh they'll be confused as hell and I think that's what happening. The writers will have to slow build trust, closeness and a reason for the audience to care about these characters. It can't be rushed and I think they're thinking Arrow and The Flash should have built this goodwill already without them having to earn it. Based on early reviews their assumptions couldn't be more wrong, if that's the case.

 

This seems to be a common complaint from the reviews, but I suspect they made the right call by a) rushing through the character introductions and b) assuming viewers are either familiar with the Flarrowverse or DC Comics.  Here's why: Most viewers WILL be familiar with the Flarrowverse and/or DC Comics.  Do you really want to risk losing fans you already have by boring them to tears and rehashing what has literally already been covered in the parent shows?

 

I think reviewers might actually be missing this very important part of the equation.  This show is a spin-off.  It's characters have been established on other shows.  It has a fan following already.  For right or wrong, they made the choice to spin the first nine episodes of Flash and Arrow reintroducing/launching this cast of characters so they can't really redo that in the premier of LoT.  So it's perfectly natural to expect some quick exposition and then to get the ball rolling pretty quickly. 

 

Frankly, I can't imagine that's going to be a major problem for the casual viewer who decides to turn this on after watching Arrow and/or Flash.  From all the previews I've seen - what I think people will greatly enjoy is a show that is full of action, adventure, and comedy.  The show is being compared to Guardians of the Galaxy a lot - that can't be a bad thing.

Edited by nksarmi
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tarotx

tarotx

Even most of the bad reviews see the promise LOT has-The potential in the character dynamics. 

 

The pilot just tries to be both a new show and an establish show. What I heard it's like bringing all these known characters over to guest in a new characters book. And a reader who has read only some of the known characters' stuff and none of the new person book. We want more of what we like and less of the other characters. If you can't stand a character too much time is going to be spent on them. The characters don't have a lot of time to breathe outside of lead into and the actual action scenes, A lot happens but at the same time not a lot is accomplished. The show is going to rise and fall on the character dynamics and rather they get the right people together. The show has a basic plot-and plot dynamic. Go through time and alter events enough to weak Vandal so he can really be killed. Of course that is going to interesting cause all they have to do is stop MM. It comes down to that again. Gee wiz. Instead of go back in time to kill baby Hitler-go back in time to prevent MM's wife from dying. Dramatic change of history. 

BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Legion of Superheroes coming to DC TV.

Supergirl or The Flash seem the best fit.

Supergirl makes the most sense since she actually has a lot of comic history with them though with the promos they are running for Flash, perhaps just about anything could happen. 

 

 

 

I forget there are other boards. I'm a little gun shy about visiting other boards in the same universe (cough*The Flash*cough).

Thanks for the links.

There's nothing to worry about over on the LoT boards.  Everything is pretty low key.  No real factions have formed at this point.  I'd say it's very Sara and Cold positive, worries about the Hawks and ready to give everyone else a chance.  Some light Ray bashing is about the most heated anything gets.  ;) 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

Go to the LOT board. A lot of links there.

I went there and couldn't find any LoT reviews in the news and media thread, I went back 2 pages.  I saw lots of promos and interviews and PR pieces but I didn't see any links to reviews. I don't know maybe I just missed them

 

Not that it matters people will judge it on it's own and we'll see what happens.  I'm curious to see the ratings and reviews and comments once people actually get to see the episode. 

Edited by Morrigan2575
tarotx

tarotx

Try the spoiler thread. The good and bad reviews say the same thing. Some just liked it and others didn't. The reviews brought in this thread(for the most part) have been the extreme on the bad side. The reviews are all about rather or not they show the character you like enough and too much of the characters you dislike or don't know. They do spend time introducing each character.  So not a lot of stuff happens beyond the Characters. With 10 characters you don't spend a lot of time on any. It'll rise and Fall on Rip. The second half a lot of action but there is no story. They are strategically going after Vandal. It's all about Characters and them failing to take out Savage when Rip thought it would be much more easy than it's turning out to be...So It's going to come down to if you like the characters and action. 

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

Not wanting it to do as well as Arrow or Flash is, IMO, asking for the show to fail though considering it costs a LOT to make (and they've been pushing it hard so the network is desperate to see it succeed)  what with all the useless hawk people flying about, the time travelling, Ray's ridiculous suit, Firestorm's powers... Basically just a lot of CGI... 

 

I'm just sick and tired of Arrow being cast aside every time there's a new, flashy toy. Even now almost every single thing the Arrow account on Twitter and Marc Guggenheim post is about LOT. I understand it's the new show and needs all the promo it can get because it's expensive as hell to make, but hey that's the choice the network and whoever else made. So yeah, good, solid numbers but not greater than Arrow. If they count that as a flop, so be it. 

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Delphi

Delphi

(edited)

I forget there are other boards. I'm a little gun shy about visiting other boards in the same universe (cough*The Flash*cough).

Thanks for the links.

Its just us over there along with a few nice folks that post in the Supergirl forum, don't worry. Worry after the pilot airs. Edited by Delphi
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

If what the bad reviews are saying is true (no clear leads, but a lot of alphas), then the LoT EPs need to remember that Guardians of the Galaxy (the movie that LoT is most compared to) had a clear leading character - Peter Quill.

 

Legion of Superheroes coming to DC TV.


Supergirl or The Flash seem the best fit.

I think it's Supergirl.  Wasn't there a teaser awhile back that they'd be featuring a young Clark Kent in an upcoming episode?

Edited by tv echo
BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Well, the Hawks IMO seem like a weak point and even if they were paying attention to complaints about them in the crossover, they had already filmed 8 or 9 episodes at that point, so there is no time to really adjust that BUT these show runners often end up seeing the same problems the viewers do and writer to fix the problems so I'm hopeful that some corrections would have already been done. 

 

I feel like if they can just keep an audience until the third episode, LoT will do fine. 

nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

I don't know that the Hawks will be that big of a focus on the spin-off.  I mean Stein, Sara, Cold, and Ray are just already so established and Rip will probably be the character the show really evolves around.  The crossover focus on the Hawks was probably because they don't have preexisting ties to the Flarrowverse.  I mean even though Jay is new - because he is tied to Stein - it feels like we know his story.

 

Of course, for better or worse, that's also probably why they tied the Hawks to Savage - to strengthen their importance.  I kind of wish they hadn't done that because it turned out kind of lame and I want to like Hawkgirl, but it is what it is.  Still, I don't see them taking the spotlight from the other more established characters all that much.

 

I wonder how many people will check the show out because of AD/Rip.  It might be interesting to see if Dr. Who fans like this show even if they haven't already dipped their feet into the Flarrowverse.

 

 

Edited by nksarmi
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

If what the bad reviews are saying is true (no clear leads, but a lot of alphas), then the LoT EPs need to remember that Guardians of the Galaxy (the movie that LoT is most compared to) had a clear leading character - Peter Quill.

 

It's not my favorite show or anything, but Leverage is an example of a team coming together composed of a lot of Alphas, or at least lone wolf types, and it worked out for that show. (Nate might have been sort of set up as the lead, but they didn't need him to be, and the show was at its weakest when focused on him, IMO.) I really think the problem here might just be the sheer number of characters. Unless it's a soap or family drama, a "true ensemble," as MG might say, works with about that number of people--five--and beyond that, you need a hierarchy of some sort, IMO. I do suspect S1 will feel scattered and uneven, but hopefully they can streamline for S2, assuming they get one.

Edited by Carrie Ann
tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Hmm - I'm not sure how I feel about this article...

 

(Super)girl Power: 2015 was the year of the superheroine
By Victor D. Infante  Jan. 15, 2016 at 6:00 AM
http://www.telegram.com/article/20160115/ENTERTAINMENTLIFE/160119528

Before we put 2015 up on the shelf and move on to the new year, let’s take a moment to draw attention to something remarkable: 2015 was the year where superheroines got superpowers as a matter of course. Sure, there had been some exceptions — Sue Storm in various “The Fantastic Four” reboots, the various female “X-Men,” but still … in the newest iteration of superhero-based television and cinemas, the heroines were almost strictly devoid of superpowers.
 

Peggy Carter of “Agent Carter”? Spy. Natasha Romanov of “Avengers”? Spy/martial artist. Bobbi Morse and Melinda May of “Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.”? Spies/martial artists. Jemma Simmons of “S.H.I.E.L.D.”? Scientist. Felicity Smoak of “Arrow”? Hacker. Sarah Lance of “Arrow”? Assassin/martial artist. Dinah Lance of "Arrow"? Lawyer/martial artist. All heroic, certainly, but none able to defy gravity or bend steel in their bare hands. More than a decade out from “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” that’s a little concerning.
 

But 2015 changed that, here’s a look at some of the actually super-powered superheroines who graced TV and movie screens in 2015, rattled with spoilers for just about everything....

Edited by tv echo
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Delphi

Delphi

(edited)

Yeah, I feel you. Don't get me wrong I love Jessica Jones and can't wait for more and for the most part I really enjoy Supergirl. But I don't need my heroes to have superpowers. Maybe it's just because my comic tastes sway more in the direction of the Batman family but honestly think that powers can sometimes be more of a hindrance. In fact part of the reason I enjoyed JJ so much was because her powers took a backseat to the story and character development.

Edited by Delphi
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KirkB

KirkB

(edited)

Because it's rare to see a true ensemble show. Most of the time there is a main character, often the title character (like Arrow or Xena), and the others will be the ones who pal around with or fight them. Sometimes there may not be a central character but an actor who is considered the main attraction, such as Richard Dean Anderson on Stargate SG-1. Even when the show doesn't have a specified lead character, one will almost develop as more dominant if only because he or she is popular with the fans. It's standard television practice and it's pretty much what people are used to. LoT will be a bit of a mess if it's just constantly a bunch of characters jockeying for screen time with no one leading or at least standing out. Rip Hunter, the only new character, seems to be the most likely focus to me, since he's the one who brings everyone together and it's his ship they're traveling around on. That doesn't necessarily make AD the star of the show though. To find out who the producers consider the main character we'll have to wait and see who is listed first in the opening credits.

Edited by KirkB
Chaser

Chaser

They may want to look at AOS for some inspiration of how to handle an ensemble cast. Instead of them trying to give everyone equal screen time in every episode (as Leads), rotate the focus thru out the season. Mix and matching teams on a consistent basis.

 

Side note: I just love how AOS balances their cast.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

Oh, yeah, if they try to give equal screentime to each and every character in every single episode of LOT, that's when things will get terrible. Specially with 483 characters.

 

I also hope there's at least some kind of order to the story here. I'm trying to think of an ensemble show that didn't at least have an internal hierarchy, and I can't think of any. West Wing, the Stargates, AoS, even Leverage, they all have narratives grounded by a hierarchy, with each and every character providing a specific set of skills + fitting in a specific place in the organization. As much as I love chaos and experimentation, I don't think the LOT writers are good enough to do that kind of thing.

nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

If you watch enough previews, there is a very clear feeling for how LoT is going to shape up...

 

Rip IS the leader and it is HIS mission, but he is going to have his hands full with this bunch. 

 

Stein and Ray are the science guys.

 

Sara, Cold, and Heat are the muscle, but it looks like Sara is paired with Rip a lot in the previews (and she will probably be the one to get Cold and Heat under control).

 

Most people are speculating that Hawkman will die early and then we will only see past/future lives versions of him (which means we may not get him in a second season).

 

I am going to speculate that Jay and Hawkgirl will be used effectively, but not as much as other members of the team.

 

I'd say the "hierarchy" of this show will shape up pretty clearly just based on the pre-established nature of these characters.

 

 

Edited by nksarmi
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bijoux

bijoux

(edited)

Most people are speculating that Hawkman will die early and then we will only see past/future lives versions of him (which means we may not get him in a second season).

 

The Hawks resurrections are connected to Savage, right? So if one or both of them die and Savage is eliminated after that, there's no coming back for them by my logic.

Edited by bijoux
FurryFury

FurryFury

If what the bad reviews are saying is true (no clear leads, but a lot of alphas), then the LoT EPs need to remember that Guardians of the Galaxy (the movie that LoT is most compared to) had a clear leading character - Peter Quill.

And I hated Peter Quill (despite loving the actor). Which meant I didn't like the movie. So, ensemble is the way to go. There are too many shows (yeah, Arrow/Flash included) that place way too big of an emphasis on a character that I end up disliking (or not caring for in the best case). So, bring it on! I love true ensemble casts.

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nksarmi

nksarmi

The Hawks resurrections are connected to Savage, right? So if one or both of them die and Savage is eliminated after that, there's no coming back for them by my logic.

The Hawks resurrections are connected to Savage, right? So if one or both of them die and Savage is eliminated after that, there's no coming back for them by my logic.

I am not entirely sure how they are going to make this work and it's the thing I most want the exposition fairy to explain early on.

statsgirl

statsgirl

Because it's rare to see a true ensemble show. Most of the time there is a main character, often the title character (like Arrow or Xena), and the others will be the ones who pal around with or fight them. Sometimes there may not be a central character but an actor who is considered the main attraction, such as Richard Dean Anderson on Stargate SG-1. Even when the show doesn't have a specified lead character, one will almost develop as more dominant if only because he or she is popular with the fans.

And Stargate SG1 ran into real problems when RDA decided to first step back and then step out.

In his interview with Kevin Smith, AK said that both Arrow and Supergirl needed to find their way while The Flash hit the right way as soon as the first episode. (More specifically, Arrow needed Felicity Smoak and didn't need the voice overs. I wonder what how they're going to develop Supergirl.)

I would think that given the great underwhelming response to the Hawks in the crossover episodes, they may need to let LoT take a few episodes to find its own way too.

BkWurm1

BkWurm1

And Stargate SG1 ran into real problems when RDA decided to first step back and then step out

 

I know that most people saw RDA as the official lead but I was a fan of the movie before the show and so for me, I always saw Daniel Jackson as the lead.  Which meant I loved the 9tha and 10th season when he was nearly always front and center.  The show suffered most the season where RDA only partially stepped back since it still tried to make him a lead, but once they let that go, I thought the show worked great.  Of course I also loved Vala so that might have heavily influenced me.  

 

I think that is the great thing about shows that are closer to true ensembles.  Stargate SG-1 might have had RDA as the one with the most weight in the cast but the storylines were more evenly distributed.  And I have hopes for that in LoT, that while one character might seem to be the official lead, but there will be enough storyline to go around so that everyone can pick their favorites and watch the show through their eyes. 

  • Love 1
KirkB

KirkB

I came into SG-1 not particularly fond of the movie but with a lot of love for MacGyver, so RDA was THE draw for me. But while he may have been the guy with his name before the title he was not really the star of the show, it was not just about O'Neill, it was the whole SG-1 team. In fact it's probably one of the better examples of a true ensemble, or the closest to it at any rate. I'll be curious to see if LoT can pull that off.

  • Love 3
tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Ouch! - I have seen both positive and negative reviews of LoT; I only post this one here because of the comparison to Arrow and Flash...

 

The CW’s latest comic book show falls short of legendary
By David Wiegand Updated 8:04 pm, Saturday, January 16, 2016
http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/The-CW-s-latest-comic-book-show-falls-short-of-6764717.php

“Legends” does occupy a new slot in the ever-expanding universe of CW comic book shows. “Arrow” is the dark, somewhat sophisticated series, “The Flash” is lighter and targets a slightly younger audience, and now “Legends” becomes the silliest of the trio. It’s moderately fun in places, but not as engaging as the other two series.
 

The problem is that Berlanti and Co. just seem to be falling back on a template at this point, and not paying enough attention to the kind of details that have made “Arrow” and “The Flash” so good. If they want or need to fix the show, casting should be at the top of their to-do list. Most of the actors are acceptable; a couple are not. Ciara Renée is beautiful and may look the part, but her performance is wooden and amateurish. Crump is another weak link as Vandal Savage. He has all the menace of a shopping mall shoe salesman.

Edited by tv echo
tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Just read this IGN interview with Wentworth Miller and a few of his comments struck me...

 

LEGENDS OF TOMORROW: WENTWORTH MILLER ON WHETHER CAPTAIN COLD IS A HERO
BY TERRI SCHWARTZ  16 JAN 2016
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/16/legends-of-tomorrow-wentworth-miller-on-whether-captain-cold-is-a-hero

Miller: ...  My impression is that The Flash is a show about a boy's journey into manhood. For the Flash character, there is a variety of male models presented to him, and Captain Cold is one of them....
*  *  *
Miller: Right. Well, I think that's the beauty of the current setup, is that Legends is meant to be a bit of a revolving door. The cast that was sitting on that stage today may not be the cast that's sitting there next year....
*  *  *
Miller: ... I'm particularly intrigued by Sarah Lance's journey. She's clearly badass, but she's also got a code. You can see her moral struggle, and that's a model for Snart, because he's got his own code. He's got his own struggle. So I think he's focused on her for a variety of reasons.

 

First, Barry is an adult, not a boy, so that's a curious perspective from WM. Second, he confirms that even the LoT actors understand that there could be a cast change next season.  Third, he seems to be hinting at some connection between Snart and Sara.

Edited by tv echo
tv echo

tv echo

Wow... did not know these people had already been cast for the new Wonder Woman movie (out June 23, 2017)...

 

Warner Bros. Casts Wonder Woman's Mother (Exclusive)
JANUARY 15, 2016 12:42pm PT by Borys Kit
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/warner-bros-casts-wonder-womans-856255

Connie Nielsen, the Danish actress best known for playing a Roman queen in Gladiator, has joined the cast of Wonder Woman, Warner Bros.’ highly anticipated take on the DC icon.
 

Gal Gadot is playing the Amazonian princess and the cast already includes Chris Pine, portraying love interest Captain Steve Trevor, Robin Wright, Danny Huston, David Thewlis, and Ewen Bremner. Pine recently said the movie is set during World War I.
 

Nielsen will play Hippoyta, the queen of the Amazons and mother of Princess Diana, aka Wonder Woman.

  • Love 1
kismet

kismet

Perusing the LoT forum there was a post about Cold & SaraL becoming besties and perhaps he might bring her along to CC that next time he visits. Which made me wonder... has BA ever even met SL?? I really can't remember, but I don't think she was part of any episode that included BA hanging with TA. How bizarre would it be for BA to be introduced to SL thru Cpt Cold and not OQ or LL. I guess in someways it would seal the deal that SL is part of the LoT team and not a member of TA. It just is kinda fascinating that BA has perhaps never met SL.

 

If my memory is faulty and BA/SL have met before in the Flarrowverse please let me know. :)

foreverevolving

foreverevolving

Wow... did not know these people had already been cast for the new Wonder Woman movie (out June 23, 2017)...

 

Warner Bros. Casts Wonder Woman's Mother (Exclusive)

JANUARY 15, 2016 12:42pm PT by Borys Kit

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/warner-bros-casts-wonder-womans-856255

They haven't just been cast, I believe the movie is already being filmed.

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