Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[SleepDeprived]

I've missed, like, the last 3 episodes of The Flash and I don't really feel any urgency to keep up with it. I'm kinda content just reading the posts here. Meh. I'll catch-up, eventually.

Has the HISHE for Batman v Superman been posted here yet? It's pretty hilarious. "Like a good butler, Alfred is there!"

[quarks]

Alas, apart from the Earth-2 episodes and tonight's pants, which were genuinely spectacular, I don't think The Flash has been doing justice to Candace Patton or Iris' character at all. I'd love to see her investigate stuff, but that hasn't really been happening. 

Her plot in tonight's episode was pretty typical:

1. Listen to people.

2. Wear amazing pants.

3. Confess feelings.

4. Squeeze out beautiful, beautiful tears and look worried.

They did give Candace Patton more of an acting moment towards the end there, but still.

[Chaser]

They talked a lot about meta humans being controlled by Zoom, I'm thinking they may give BS a mini arc. She's a villain but being controlled. She gets her control back and savings Barry or Ciscos life by sacraficing her own. 

[ruby24]

I think Iris will be what gets him out of the speedforce next week, because they finally brought up the term "lightning rod," which is famously what Iris is for Barry in the comics. They'll probably finally figure that out in the next one.

[ComicFan777]

Iris's love confession felt less heartfelt to me because she mentioned that she has been thinking about them because of Wells said that they were married in the future and on earth 2 and she can't help but wonder maybe they are meant to be together and she is finally available now.  If I were Barry, I would be thinking...so it takes other people telling you that we end up together to make you consider an "us"...hmmm...well, that's seems nice and all, but I was really hoping to hear that you've been madly in love with me just as I have always been in love you...

I guess love confession via it's destiny because comics is what West-Allen is going to go with...sorta rings hollow to me.

[ruby24]

That was bothering me before, but...it's not like we don't know that Iris does love Barry anyway. I just hold onto to her 1x15 confession, which really was about her feelings, so the truth is we DO know that she's always felt that way.

I think the big mistake was just not showing the occasional moments of her lingering feelings this entire season. Just a little sadness about him being with Patty or anything, really. If we saw that she did have these feelings that she was burying because of Eddie guilt, then I actually can see the idea of destiny being something that finally makes her brave enough to face them.

But I thought she delivered the speech well, and she did look hot in those pants. Plus, I liked Barry's reaction- I know they didn't have him say anything, but it was kinda written all over his face, imo. He looked like he was trying to stop himself from smiling the whole time.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

While I have quit watching Flash, I'm still interested in Iris as a character... I want to know, has Flash been doing her justice this year? I know she's on the team now, but what does she actually do? What does she bring to the team? Because I think, the fact that she's a journalist, she could bring her investigative skills... So does the show actually reflect that?

I just don't want Iris to be saddled with just being the love interest/ Barry's cheerleader...

In many ways I think this year has been worse for both Caitlin and Iris.  Caitlin is getting a little bit of attention in the last couple episodes but Iris is allowed to do so little.  

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

Iris's love confession felt less heartfelt to me because she mentioned that she has been thinking about them because of Wells said that they were married in the future and on earth 2 and she can't help but wonder maybe they are meant to be together and she is finally available now.  If I were Barry, I would be thinking...so it takes other people telling you that we end up together to make you consider an "us"...hmmm...well, that's seems nice and all, but I was really hoping to hear that you've been madly in love with me just as I have always been in love you...

I guess love confession via it's destiny because comics is what West-Allen is going to go with...sorta rings hollow to me.

For whatever reason, Iris was reaching out to Barry about her feelings and he met her with a stone wall.  If I were Iris I would think that Barry had moved on.  He even was shaking his head when she was suggesting maybe they should be together. 

Pretty sure it was supposed to be him showing his confusion but it was not clear and as he awkwardly stands there not saying a thing, Iris finally walks away and Barry does nothing to stop her nor does he even have the SPECIAL goodbye with her before stepping into the risky doohickey.  He so gets more touching moments with his "dads" .  He got to have 3 of them in this episode, lol. (Dads)  One said, DO IT!  One said DON'T DO IT!  And of course the super special Joe says, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU SHOULD DO!! 

Here's a question though that I was wondering through all the back and forth on them wanting Barry to try and get his powers back and him not being sure  -  why is Barry the only option if they know all the pieces that go into making a speedster?  Why didn't Wells jump in to volunteer if he was so sure? 

Edited May 4, 2016 by BkWurm1

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

While I have quit watching Flash, I'm still interested in Iris as a character... I want to know, has Flash been doing her justice this year? I know she's on the team now, but what does she actually do? What does she bring to the team? Because I think, the fact that she's a journalist, she could bring her investigative skills... So does the show actually reflect that?

I just don't want Iris to be saddled with just being the love interest/ Barry's cheerleader...

Well Earth 2 Iris was spectacular so maybe that counts as giving the actress good material?

Iris has been incorporated well into the team I think. She's been on coms and helping out rather well. I think she fits, but she isn't exactly invaluable either. She kind of feels like Thea oddly enough - which is all kinds of weird since I just compared her to Oliver's sister and I think the show wants me to forget her and Barry's bro/sis vibe. Anyway, they are doing much better by her than Caitlyn - like 1000% better, but I guess that isn't saying much.

Still, if I had to rank Flarrowverse female characters (in terms of story and usefulness - while leaving out Supergirl) - I'd say she comes in third probably. I think I'd rank Sara highest, then Felicity, then probably Iris. So if getting better stories/development than the likes of Laurel, Thea, Kendra, and Caitlyn is considered a win - then yea Iris!

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

Iris's love confession felt less heartfelt to me because she mentioned that she has been thinking about them because of Wells said that they were married in the future and on earth 2 and she can't help but wonder maybe they are meant to be together and she is finally available now.  If I were Barry, I would be thinking...so it takes other people telling you that we end up together to make you consider an "us"...hmmm...well, that's seems nice and all, but I was really hoping to hear that you've been madly in love with me just as I have always been in love you...

I guess love confession via it's destiny because comics is what West-Allen is going to go with...sorta rings hollow to me.

I don't ship anything on Flash and barely watch. Last full episode I watched was when Barry time traveled to get Wells/Thawn's help to run faster and Eddie was still alive.

I watched last night and Iris' speech seems very insincere to me. It reminded me of While You Were Sleeping. When Peter woke up and and was like "Lucy my family loves you, I might as well love you".  During Iris' speech it seemed like she was saying well I don't have much choice, fate is saying we're supposed to be together and hell I got no one else so let's give it a shot. What do you say pal?

[apinknightmare]

I don't have any trouble believing that Iris has feelings for him, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wondering about "fate" since she's aware of at least two realities in which she and Barry are together. I just don't understand why they're pushing the destiny of it? She could've mentioned the headline and their E2 dopplegangers to Caitlin when they were talking about it a couple weeks ago, then expounded on her actual feelings for him. And then brought those up to Barry, and left fate out of it. They'd already talked about her wanting to move on - she could've just said that she was ready to do that, and she wanted to do that with him. 

I guess they might've meant for it to be kind of off, and that's why Barry didn't respond to her? Because he's gonna doubt it and they're going to drag it all out some more? Who knows. 

[Sakura12]

Iris probably figures that the only way she'll see her father is if she dates and marries Barry. 

The Flash is never going to be about Barry and Iris, it's going to be about Barry and his various father figures. 

[Morrigan2575]

18 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Iris probably figures that the only way she'll see her father is if she dates and marries Barry. 

The Flash is never going to be about Barry and Iris, it's going to be about Barry and his various father figures. 

Which, to be honest, i prefer. I like the Barry/Joe and Barry/Wells relationships/interactions the most. I have no problem with the show focusing on those relationships. 

I have more problems with the show's answer to every problem being "Run, Barry Run"

[Lokiberry]

23 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Iris probably figures that the only way she'll see her father is if she dates and marries Barry. 

The Flash is never going to be about Barry and Iris, it's going to be about Barry and his various father figures. 

But that's the way the show has always been. Last night's episode should have been titled Barry and His Three Dads. I mean, they're probably going to do WestAllen, because they have no other options now (unless Supergirl gets cancelled, and they bring Melissa Benoist over), but it's never going to be the Barry and Iris Show. That's clearly never been the intention.

The desire to see the show change it's main focus to Barry and Iris (I'm not saying that's what you want) is to me the equivalent of wanting Arrow to be The Green Arrow and Black Canary Show. That was never going to happen, even before whatever went down that made them start sidelining Laurel. Flash is what it is.

They do need to address how they treat female characters. Every woman on the show is either a love object or a DiD. Iris is supposed to be a Lois Lane type character, in a universe that probably doesn't have an actual Lois Lane. Their inability to write this type of character in a comic book show is inexcusable, and shows just how little interest AK has in female characters. Maybe Jessie will get treated better now that she probably has super powers, but I wouldn't count on it.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Lokiberry

[Sakura12]

I don't care about Barry and Iris. I do care that CP is barely a character on that show. I also don't understand how they didn't learn from Arrow. If you don't care about the heroes love interest, DON'T put them on the show right in the beginning. There is nothing wrong with introducing them later if nothing else works out.

The Flash is basically a live action of the Run, Spot, Run children's books. 

[apinknightmare]

I don't want this to be the Barry and Iris show. I would, however, like better payoff to a relationship they've been setting up since the pilot than, "I guess we should give this a go because fate." Changing the wording there would've impacted the relationship's screen time not even a little bit. 

[hogwash]

It's nothing like Laurel/Oliver where  the issues were obvious from the pilot (her SISTER???) so I don't get this screw-up with Iris/Barry. They're way past showing at this point so I'm even cool with a sudden confession. Instead, it's like pulling teeth getting Iris to say outright that she has romantic feelings for Barry.

What are the odds that Iris will be more involved in the main plot if she's Barry's girlfriend? Anything's better than the BFFs who don't actually talk to each other but after the last couple of episodes I'm not so sure. The sausage fest is too strong!

[kismet]

It's live action Run, Spot, Run with a lot of CGI added to the mix.

At times, I feel they are also channeling some old school Forrest Gump w/ Jenny. I can literally hear that little girl shouting Run Barry Run. Perhaps they'll put Iris & Barry on a school bus with bullies or maybe she'll join some commune get HIV and leave her son named Barry behind a few years after their one night stand. It would be nice to see BA play a mean game of ping pong & inadvertently meet a lot of famous people. That's if they want to deviate into something a little more complicated then Running plot.

[Sakura12]

Barry and Iris don't have the horribleness of Laurel/Oliver but they did make them almost like brother and sister. I know they are not related and Barry had a crush on Iris before he moved in with them. However when Iris comes home and asks Barry where Dad is, it looks a little strange. They sprinkled scenes like that throughout both seasons and they may have thought they were being funny, it just turned me off seeing Barry and Iris has romantic. 

Earth 2 Barry and Iris worked because they had none of that. Joe was Iris' dad and Barry grew up with his own parents. 

I also think we need to cut back on the episode count. If you need 23 episodes to tell your story then go ahead, if you only need 10 episodes than we don't need 13 episodes of filler. I'd rather have an amazing story over seeing pointless episodes or arcs stupidly stretched out just to fill the schedule. Or they can do with AoS does air a 10 or so episode arc, finish it. Have a break where another show with 8-10 episodes airs, then continue your show with another 10 or so episode arc. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Sakura12

[hogwash]

Combining Zoom (the best thing about the first half) with Jay Garrick (the worst thing about the first half) then building the entire season around that was a bad choice. None of the Jay Garrick stuff was good. NONE! I can't believe that stupid and bland romance with Caitlin actually became a major plot point.

Hopefully, they'll stick the landing??

[quarks]

9 hours ago, nksarmi said:

 

Still, if I had to rank Flarrowverse female characters (in terms of story and usefulness - while leaving out Supergirl) - I'd say she comes in third probably. I think I'd rank Sara highest, then Felicity, then probably Iris. So if getting better stories/development than the likes of Laurel, Thea, Kendra, and Caitlyn is considered a win - then yea Iris!

I'd have to disagree with this ranking, though. I'd say that with the exception of Donna, pretty much every other woman in the Arrowverse, including some of the one off characters, has had more of a storyline than Iris this season and/or had more of an involvement in the mail plot and/or more character development, and yes, I'm including Laurel. 

1. Thea had her introduction to politics, her bloodlust, and helping to bring Sara back. She also started a new relationship even if Arrow usually forgets that she's dating someone and met up with one of her exes, and joined Team Arrow on every field mission. She was responsible for making Anarky worse.

2. Kendra has, admittedly, been sucked into the past love plot from hell, but she's also joined the rest of Team Legends on missions and has been in a couple of fight scenes, and she's in theory instrumental in bringing down Savage for once and for all.  I haven't been a huge fan of the barista turns reincarnated Egyptian priestess who falls in love with Flying Robot Dude and then spends two years in the 1950s with him, but it was a story. She also helped convince Sara to return to the LoA.  And on a more negative note she was the main reason the Let's Kill Savage plan failed, which had the bonus advantage of letting LoT continue for a few more episodes. She's had plot.  

3. Nyssa, admittedly, spent a large part of this season in prison, but escaped and destroyed the LoA. 

4. Lyla returned to ARGUS and started to lead it, and helped Team Flash catch the shark dude.

5. Sara came back from the dead, hugged things out with people, and then went time travelling, establishing herself as the only consistently competent member of Team Legends.  She also dealt with her evil past with the League of Assassins and decided to choose the hero route.

6. Felicity has had the who will lead Palmer Tech GO BATTERIES storyline, attacks on Palmer Tech from two metahumans which have included scenes of her fighting back, ziplining down with Curtis to save Ray, the wheelchair storyline and the why am I having to deal with a secret child storyline. With the exception of the episode where she was in the hospital and Laurel's death episode, she's worked with Team Arrow in every episode.

7. Bee Girl had a TRAGIC TERRIBLE ILLNESS and invaded Palmer Tech but lost. Short story, but story.

8. Jeri Ryan revealed a never before heard of friendship with the Queen family, ran for office, and decided to step down.

9. Vandal Savage's daughter flirted with Captain Cold, found out the truth, and helped betray her own father. 

10. Ruve ran for mayor and won.

And even the weaker storylines:

11. Caitlin has been mostly reduced to a love interest this season, but as that love interest, she's been heavily involved in the main who is Jay Garrick/evil Zoom plot; she also helped develop Velocity whatever and track down Shark Guy; in last night's episode she persuaded Zoom to temporarily hold off on killing the cops and tried to warn Team Flash about Rapture even if that ended up failing in the end.

12. When not getting kidnapped, Patty fell in love with someone she'd just met, worked her way onto Joe's task force, fought various metahumans, and finally decided to go on with her life.

13. Poppy's story is, admittedly, kinda hard to remember because it's pretty boring, but even she got to stand up to evil drug lords, cook lizards, find out that the guy she had feelings for killed her brother, and run round and around some tunnels. Wow. When I type it out it seems that it shouldn't be boring, but there we are.

14. Vixen destroyed the totem thingy, which would have totally worked if Team Arrow hadn't remembered that we had several more episodes to go and decided to rebuild the totem thingy. Destroying it was, however, instrumental in saving that kid.

15. Jesse ended up in a totally new world, ran off to a new town, came back, and got herself out of a locked room so she could use a bathroom at long last only to get transformed into a metahuman.

16. Prior to dying, Laurel was involved in bringing Sara back, and after that, joined Team Arrow on pretty much all missions and helped rescue Team Arrow from Darhk in the winter finale. She also, with her usual courtroom ineptness, faced Darhk, and in a rare moment of competence, found drugs in Iron Heights which was pretty cool and gave her one rare and final moment of YAY LAUREL DID SOMETHING that didn't screw things up or get people killed.

And then there's Iris.

In the first episode this season, Iris was a reporter who wanted to have a long, personal talk with Barry.

Exactly the same role she played last night. 

Apart from one brief moment in the fall season where Iris was investigating something or other and Barry showed up to rescue her, and a later episode where her boss wanted her to write mean things about the Flash and then wanted to go out with her, Iris has been continually sidelined even in plots that she should be involved in. In marked contrast to Felicity, who actively participated in all but two of Team Arrow's missions this year, Iris is often missing from the Team Flash scenes and only actively participated in two Team Flash missions.

Her plots:

1. The return/death of her mother, which turned out to be almost entirely about Joe and Wally.

2. Realizing that pretty much nobody in the show, including her own father who told her, to her face, that Barry had just had an awful year, remembered that her fiance had just died, so she might as well look at a video from Eddie conveniently brought back by time travelling Barry.

3. In the previous episode, finally heading out into the field to help Barry investigate something - only to be sidelined again in the second half of the episode.

4. Realizing that she and Barry hook up in alternative realities, so why not this one?

And even 4 was, once again, not really about Iris, but rather about ensuring that in the following episode, exploded by special effects but not really dead Barry would have someone to go back to.  

Otherwise, once again, as everyone else in the show got to do something - even kidnapped Caitlin and trapped in a room without a bathroom Wally and Jessie - Iris functioned mostly as a sounding board for Team Flash. She was completely left out of the Jitters plot - the only regular other than Wally to not participate in that. Most of the conversation about whether or not restoring Barry's powers through weird chemicals and Expecto Patronus involved Henry Allen and Harry Wells.

Is she doing better with plots/stories than Donna, "Hi, I'm mostly here to cheer on Oliver and Felicity and comment on this show's insistence on impractical shoes"? Sure. But Donna's only been in a few episodes this season and is a supporting character to supporting characters Felicity and Quentin. Flash is hardly an ensemble show, but Iris should be having at least as many plots/stories as other characters on Flash. And for whatever reason, despite the Earth-2 episodes suggesting that she could play more of a role, that doesn't seem to be happening.  

[Velocity23]

Flash scores 1.2 and 3.2 mil viewers

[AyChihuahua]

I pretty strongly consider Candace Patton the strongest actress in the Flarrowverse (RIP Moira), which is the only reason I gave any tiny crap about Iris. I don't really watch The Flash anymore (caught the last ten minutes of last night bc there was nothing else on), but every time I see her I'm impressed. THAT is why she should get more to do...not Iris's comic name, but the fact that every little thing they do give CP to do, she knocks out of the park.

Oh, still don't see any romantic/sexual chemistry with GG, but for the record, I've personally never seen any sexual/romantic chemistry bw GG and any of his many LIs/quasi-LIs/almost-LIs.

[dtissagirl]

If I were Candace Patton, I would be actively looking for another job.

[Sakura12]

Is a 1.2 a new low for the Flash this season? 

[Velocity23]

It got a 1.1 after it came back from hiatus.

[Chaser]

Is next week the BS episode or the one after? I was expecting to see her in the promo.

[Sakura12]

After the hiatus almost all shows get low numbers because no one knows when the shows are coming back. I'm just wondering if the viewership has gone down since being back for a couple weeks now. 

[Velocity23]

BS is 2x22. One more episode to go.

[Sakura12]

LoT is looking for an African American new character from the 1940's, I vote for Candice Patton. She rocked the outfits on Earth 2. 

[Lokiberry]

15 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT is looking for an African American new character from the 1940's, I vote for Candice Patton. She rocked the outfits on Earth 2. 

Candice Patton as Lady Blackhawk; I could get behind that. Hey, with the way things are on Flash, they probably wouldn't even notice that Iris was gone.

[wonderwall]

I'd rather LoT hire another WoC because there can never be too many of them... 

[Sakura12]

My first vote was for Freema Agyeman, to keep with the Doctor Who alumni on the Flarrowverse. 

I just figured CP would have more to do on LoT, since it looks she will never have anything much to do on the Flash.

[dtissagirl]

Just now, Sakura12 said:

My first vote was for Freema Agyeman, to keep with the Doctor Who alumni on the Flarrowverse.

Oh, man, now I need this to happen.

[Starfish35]

My pick was Madeleine Mantock, who was Astrid on The Tomorrow People.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Her plots:

1. The return/death of her mother, which turned out to be almost entirely about Joe and Wally.

2. Realizing that pretty much nobody in the show, including her own father who told her, to her face, that Barry had just had an awful year, remembered that her fiance had just died, so she might as well look at a video from Eddie conveniently brought back by time travelling Barry.

3. In the previous episode, finally heading out into the field to help Barry investigate something - only to be sidelined again in the second half of the episode.

4. Realizing that she and Barry hook up in alternative realities, so why not this one?

And even 4 was, once again, not really about Iris, but rather about ensuring that in the following episode, exploded by special effects but not really dead Barry would have someone to go back to.  

5. Reminded us that's she's still friends with Linda Park and got to protect her in that one episode.

6. Got a new boss/love interest to remind us she does have a job and is single.

Being a 'sounding board' can be useful, but (same song, 37th verse) she really could be integrated into the team/action better.

(Oh, and I'm going to quote @quarks in the Iris thread.)

Edited May 4, 2016 by Trini

[wonderwall]

lol, uh oh @quarks O_O

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

5. Reminded us that's she's still friends with Linda Park and got to protect her in that one episode.

6. Got a new boss/love interest when to remind us she does have a job and is single.

Being a 'sounding board' can be useful, but (same song, 37th verse) she really could be integrated into the team/action better.

(Oh, and I'm going to quote @quarks in the Iris thread.)

I forgot 5. Thanks!

I'm not sure how much 5 helps in the overall sidelining of Iris issue though.

[Velocity23]

Barry is turning into Smallville Clarke. And i hated that douche.

[quarks]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

lol, uh oh @quarks O_O

Contrary to what a few people on the Flash forum seem to think, I like Iris and I'm not against WestAllen :)

[Chaser]

32 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

My pick was Madeleine Mantock, who was Astrid on The Tomorrow People.

Anyone watch Fringe? I thought of Jasika Nicole.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Anyone watch Fringe? I thought of Jasika Nicole.

Astrid #1.

[statsgirl]

I was at a meeting yesterday and I dashed home so I could watch The Flash.  Last week's episode was better than most so I was hopeful the show is going to be on an upswing.

But I just couldn't. I kept changing the channel to NCIS, and then switch back to The Flash when I was overwhelmed by all the testosterone. When did TV become about appealing to only those with XY chromosomes?  Or, as my daughter said after a scene with Zoom, you know it's pretty bad when you're rooting for the villain to win.

When did everyone on The Flash get stupid?  I know we often complain about Oliver being stupid and occasionally Diggle takes the wrong side in an argument for Plot but on The Flash, it seems like only Wells has any common sense left.  Iris does little but prop Barry up, although to be fair Barry needs a LOT of propping up, far more than any female character I know.  And this season is all his fault because as Well pointed out, all the villains are coming over from Earth 2.  Even Caitlin has lost IQ points because she's fighting Zoom instead of using his affection for her to try to reach a resolution.

14 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

Iris's love confession felt less heartfelt to me because she mentioned that she has been thinking about them because of Wells said that they were married in the future and on earth 2 and she can't help but wonder maybe they are meant to be together and she is finally available now.  If I were Barry, I would be thinking...so it takes other people telling you that we end up together to make you consider an "us"...hmmm...well, that's seems nice and all, but I was really hoping to hear that you've been madly in love with me just as I have always been in love you...

I guess love confession via it's destiny because comics is what West-Allen is going to go with...sorta rings hollow to me.

That was another point where I had to switch channels.  "I guess I must be with you, Barry, because I'm with you on all those others possible timelines." Wow, could it get any more romantic? Or rather, could Iris lose any more agency?

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Iris probably figures that the only way she'll see her father is if she dates and marries Barry. 

The Flash is never going to be about Barry and Iris, it's going to be about Barry and his various father figures. 

I wasn't happy when I heard that Kreisburg was leaving Arrow in MG's hands to helm The Flash but now I really think we dodged a massive bullet.  What does Arrow have that the Flash doesn't?  Well-written female characters.

It always amuses me that Barry can be a superhero all by himself since he's a metahuman, but it takes all of Wells, Caitlyn, Cisco and Iris to make up for what Felicity does on Arrow.

[tv echo]

This writer assesses which DC TV characters would line up on which side of the Captain America: Civil War divide, and then evaluates on a multi-point basis which DC TV team would win in a fight (this article is lengthy and I could only quote portions, so you may wish to read the whole thing)...

Which Side Would DC Comics’ TV Characters Choose in a Civil War?
BY KAYTI BURT      2 HOURS AGO
http://collider.com/civil-war-arrow-flash-legends-of-tomorrow/

Quote

The DC Pro-Personal Freedoms Team — a.k.a. Team Oliver Queen

You know Oliver Queen would not be cool with signing up for some superhero registry and letting the institution carry the weight of the world on its collective backs. Not when he has a perfectly fit back to do all of the self-sacrificial heavy-lifting.

Arrow’s Oliver Queen is all about operating outside of the system and, though he may have toyed with a run for public office earlier this season, let’s face it: he is not a company man. Oliver Queen would not only be on Team Personal Freedoms, he would be the self-appointed leader. He’d obviously recruit his little sister, too. Not that Thea Queen does everything Olly says, but, if there’s anyone on Arrow who hates authority more than Oliver, it’s Thea.
*  *  *
Other Arrow characters who would be pro-personal freedom? Felicity Smoak, for sure. Not only does Ms. Smoak have a history of hacktivism against the state, she nonchalantly breaks into government databases like other people do their laundry. Felicity wants the world to be a safe place, but that doesn’t mean she’s willing to give up the freedom (or the personal freedoms of some of her closest friends) to make it happen.
*  *  * 
The DC Pro-Security Team — a.k.a. Team Barry Allen

Barry Allen might not want to reveal his superhero identity, but he would do so for the greater good, making him the perfect captain for the pro-security side of this registration dilemma. He has lost too many friends to do otherwise. Barry is a social optimist at his core. He believes in the power of the system to be just, stable, and keep people safe.
*  *  *
Who would win?
*  *  *
I’m calling it for The DC Pro-Personal Freedoms Team, led by Oliver Queen. Feel free to fight me in the comments. Like Marvel’s Civil War, the DC Television Civil War would most likely be a heartbreaking exercise in friend against friend (and, in one case, daughter against father). You know that Barry and Oliver would have lots of angsty chats about how they really don’t want to fight each other, but they just worry about the future of their fragile cities (and the larger world) too damn much. Cities would fall. Friendships would crumble. And nothing in the Arrow-verse would ever be the same. Get on it, CW.

DC Pro-Personal Freedoms Team
Oliver Queen
Thea Queen
Felicity Smoak
Sara Lance
Nyssa al Ghul
Leonard Snart
Mick Rory
Rip Hunter
Jax Jackson
Iris West
Harry Wells

DC Pro-Security Team
Barry Allen
Joe West
Cisco Ramon
Caitlin Snow
John Diggle
Lyla Michaels
Quentin Lance
Ray Palmer
Martin Stein
Kendra Saunders

Edited May 4, 2016 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I love that her main points about Felicity are her personality/history and not just "Olivers Love Duh!". 

[kismet]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

Is she doing better with plots/stories than Donna, "Hi, I'm mostly here to cheer on Oliver and Felicity and comment on this show's insistence on impractical shoes"? Sure. But Donna's only been in a few episodes this season and is a supporting character to supporting characters Felicity and Quentin. Flash is hardly an ensemble show, but Iris should be having at least as many plots/stories as other characters on Flash. And for whatever reason, despite the Earth-2 episodes suggesting that she could play more of a role, that doesn't seem to be happening.  

 Agree with a lot of your other points. But for me, even Donna seemed to get more of a plot/development than Iris.

She managed to get a serious boyfriend, attempted to cook chicken, found some semi-permanent lodging in SC, had revelation about high heels and SC always being in danger during while being held hostage. Revealed deep secrets about her ex-husband and lest we forget, she was the one left in the safe room with the PT board to protect them/keep them calm. I will also go as far to say that she has been able to give out speeches, words of encouragement and be a listening ear to more than just one character. So she still beats up Iris in terms of story/character development in my book ~ which is very sad considering that Donna is a guest star and Iris is supposed to be one of the main characters.

When I try to sum up what has happened in s2 for Iris I get almost nothing substantial about her even in the supporting role. E2 IW was badass, but we lost her after 2 eps :( Even her so-called date with her new boss & job promotion went nowhere, and probably will now only be used to show that she did try to move on after Eddie, that BA is not her rebound. She should have stayed a Barista perhaps she could have helped talk to Kendra or been there for BM drama. She did have a lovely emotional scene with a cell phone watching Eddie's video. Which brings me to one of the things I love about CP/IW - however little material the Flash writers give her, CP does find a way to make the most of the crumbs. I have found her to be a compelling character because of CP despite the fact that the Flash writers feel the need to ignore the gold mine they have in her.

I understand they see her as a love interest so essentially in their blockheaded minds she is supposed to wait on the shelf like a good plot device until they insert batteries, but its a shame because she could be doing so more that would only add to the overall story. Even in their worst storylines, the Arrow writers still always tried to make LL relevant to something or at least throw her a bone of her own plot. The Flash writers have done none of that for IW and as pointed out the one storyline that could have been about her quickly changed to be about Wally & Joe. The sum total of her Mom is back with Cancer plot basically revealed that everybody still lies to IW about big things, ignore IW and Joe will always find a way to make everything be about him & his paternal relationships (BA, Eddie, Patty & Wally) while taking for granted the one relationship that should at least be on his radar. I'm surprised he even remembers he has a daughter some days. If she does date BA, part of me does believe that a small reason will be so that she can show up on her Dad's radar again.

CP deserves so much better than this.

Edited May 4, 2016 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

That was another point where I had to switch channels.  "I guess I must be with you, Barry, because I'm with you on all those others possible timelines." Wow, could it get any more romantic? Or rather, could Iris lose any more agency?

And it's made even worse that Iris herself doesn't even get to see those alternate Barry/Iris so that she can have an actual experience. She's just told about them. It's really uncanny how the writing has boxed Iris into Impending Love Interest Anytime Now, but they still don't give her the romantic beats. They give them to Barry. Yikes forever.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

 

I also think we need to cut back on the episode count. If you need 23 episodes to tell your story then go ahead, if you only need 10 episodes than we don't need 13 episodes of filler. I'd rather have an amazing story over seeing pointless episodes or arcs stupidly stretched out just to fill the schedule. Or they can do with AoS does air a 10 or so episode arc, finish it. Have a break where another show with 8-10 episodes airs, then continue your show with another 10 or so episode arc. 

I'm all for them grouping episodes to cover certain story arcs and avoid ridiculous hiatus after hiatus but I don't buy into the idea that less is automatically more.  Setting aside that sometimes the filler episodes that have the more quirky plot or explore a side issue can be some of the most interesting or character building episodes, if a show has 23 episodes maybe they only plan for half of them to be serious plot moving episodes but if they episode count falls to 13, then too often I've seen the same thing happen, where half the episodes are still filler but now instead of 11+ episodes of strong storyline, it falls to 6 or 7.  I've seen four episode events squander more than half it's time. 

I don't think it's the episode count that needs to adjust but how they are used.  There's a difference between treading water and filler.  Filler can be entertaining but when they have episodes that just stall or nothing happens either to further the overreaching plot or create a one off episode, then we have a big problem.  That gets old fast.  But if they could be more aware of what is going into an episode and not pretend it's important to spend forty minutes setting up a two minute advancement to the big plot that could have just been slipped in at the end of a self contained episode, then do that instead. 

Like this week where Barry hems and haws over if he should try to get his speed back. We all knew he's going to eventually say yes even as we all knew that he won't decide to until the end of the episode.  We also know he's not going to succeed in beating Zoom until he does get his speed back  so him fighting Zoom felt like beating our heads against a wall. 

I'm not saying that Barry's real concerns over taking the risk to get his powers back or not weren't worth exploring, I just think the audience would have had a better story if they'd let Harry tinker on his machine in the background while they sent Barry off to deal with something entirely unrelated to Zoom.  Tell some other story that gives time for Barry to more naturally explore his decision.  Give him moments of character connection instead of having him walk in on what might as well have been a talking head cable news debate. 

This was stalling the story and it was dull for the most part.  It needed a more specific narrative to make it interesting than just another rehash of Zoom is evil and can't be defeated.  We know all this.  We know he kills and uses meta human minions.  We know he has affection for Catlin but she wants to escape. We knew he was planning on coming back and taking over E1.   Nothing about that was new information.  It's just rinse and repeat.  Set that story aside until the show is ready to give us something new. 

They should have incorporated Barry and Iris into Cisco's storyline.  They could have still had Casey Jones er um, Rupture come on over but more fully deal with the WTH factor or the question of blood bonds or any bonds or what makes the difference between turning good or evil?  Just give the characters something to actually do rather than again lose to Zoom while they say they are contemplating their deep internal conflicts without us actually going through the hopes and fears.  Knowing Barry was making a decision and then just hearing about his decision wasn't interesting.  The conflict of making that decision might have been.    

Embrace the filler and make that interesting all on it's own and just skip the stalling and stretching.  There's no reason why all the episodes can't be entertaining even if not all concentrate on the big season long story arc forward. Weak arc episodes are way worse than moderate one offs.   

Edited May 4, 2016 by BkWurm1

[SonofaBiscuit]

What are the chances that The Flash pulls an Arrow and has Barry and Iris get together at the very end of the season, thus skipping all of the relationship stuff over hiatus (because ew, yuck, romance has no place on a superhero show /sarcasm).  The showrunners apparently sought Jessie L. Martin out for the role of Joe, so the Joe/Barry relationship will probably always be the one that is most important to them.  Basically, I think that Candice Patton is screwed.  

Also, I love Madeleine Mantock and Jasika Nicole, so I don't want them anywhere near LoT.  When they were casting for The Flash, I wanted Madeleine to get the role of Iris, but now I'm super glad that never happened.  

[BkWurm1]

Flash doesn't have to have either strong father son bonding or well written women.  It can have both.  They are writing stuff for Iris, so why not just making it good too? 

[Sakura12]

I didn't say less equals better. I said if they only have a story for certain amount of episodes than they should write for those episodes. Not keep adding more episode so they are forced to drag the storyline out.