S03.E09: The Sinnerman

[CheshireCat]

I've had a frustrating day anyway, so I may see things differently tomorrow, but what is it with shows and relationships nowadays? Years ago, they overdid the will-they-won't-they and rather rarely gave fans what they wanted. And now they seem to be doing the opposite. Characters can be single. Characters can be friends.

But now we've had Lucifer and Dr Linda, Amenadiel and Maze, Charlotte and Daniel, Lucifer wants Chloe, Pierce wants Chloe and Dr Linda and Amenadiel kiss and we're only in the middle of S3 and haven't even seen 40 episodes yet!

Someone please tell show writers/runners that there are other plot points than relationships and love-triangles.

[Ailianna]

18 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

. Hell, this episode even the ever stylish badass Maze was bloody pedestrian.

It's possible Leslie Ann Brandt isn't back 100% to kickass after her pregnancy.  Maze's clothing made me think they were costuming her to hide that her body has changed somewhat since giving birth (NOT a complaint, just an observation that they may hold her back a little until she's feeling 100% back to herself).

[jhlipton]

So the Devil has never sought the desires of the blind before?  Not ever???  I don't buy it, and I don't buy that Ray-Bans or even gouging your eyes out can block his power.  So that was a minus.

On 12/4/2017 at 7:11 PM, Miss Dee said:

Linda, Maze is great but she's a demon and inherently selfish. You go get yourself some angel-lovin', especially from an angel who looks like that!

Yes, but who else is going to squeeze her buns like that?  Never change, Maze!

On 12/5/2017 at 3:06 AM, Happy Harpy said:

Charlotte as a prosecutor is a good way of keeping her around.

Maybe, but noi way she would have anything do with a case until they had someone to, ya know, prosecute.  Sam McCoy never did a ride-along with Lenny Brisco!

On 12/5/2017 at 10:55 AM, johntfs said:

I think he's more someone who has figured out enough of the "rules" of the supernatural to be dangerous.

As mentioned above, the "rules" seem kind of silly if they can be circumvented so easily.

[Bruinsfan]

I hope this means there are other players in this game manipulating the Sinnerman that are outside the whole celestial family squabble. Perhaps the Silk Man or one of the Jin en Mok like Cestis or Berim from the comic series. Things from outside creation might reasonably have less fear of pissing off the Devil than anyone who, y'know, could end up in Hell at his mercy for all eternity. (Though such things still were less powerful antagonists than he and had to spin elaborate plans. I continue to think Yahweh and "Mum" are the only two beings who should be able to alter Lucifer's true form against his will by fiat.)

[thuganomics85]

Hmm... right now, I'm in the camp that doesn't think this is the true "Sinnerman" because I suspect it is either going to be a) someone already known or b) played by a more famous actor.  I recognize the guy playing him (he was Murphy on The Leftovers), but I just don't see him being the big baddie.  Nor do I see the Sinnerman getting taken out this easily, so I'm guessing he works for him, but isn't him.  That could be why he made sure Lucifer couldn't do his "parlor trick" on him, so they wouldn't find out the truth.  We'll see, I guess.

Totally not surprised that Chloe is now starting to fall for Pierce.  I wish it wasn't so contrived and obvious (and, with respect to Tom Welling, be such a boring character), but maybe they'll surprise me.  Similarly, I'm not surprised that Amenadiel and Linda likely hooked-up considering their history and the way they were acting last week.  I don't really see anything wrong with it (well, outside her having a relationship with Lucifer too.  Sibling-swapping is always weird), but they certainly are getting into dangerous territory with Maze in the middle of it!

I actually kind of like the Charlotte stuff mainly due to Tricia Helfer turning in great work.  Plus, it allows Dan to do something other then getting crapped on.  But I'm still not happy with the lack of Dan this season.

Ella continues to be back to being more entertainingly quirky again, although her cheerleading Chloe/Pierce screams of the writer's desperate attempt to really make that couple happen.

Got a kick out of the fake story of a "Hogwart's for angels" school.  Although if we were playing that game, Lucifer has to be Slytherin, I imagine.  Not sure about Amenadiel.  Not quite seeing Gryffindor for him, so maybe Ravenclaw?

[johntfs]

55 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Ella continues to be back to being more entertainingly quirky again, although her cheerleading Chloe/Pierce screams of the writer's desperate attempt to really make that couple happen.

Pushing Chloe at her boss feels more like something Maze would do/suggest.  Ella doing it seems a bit off key since Pierce seems like the kind of humorless, all-business asshat that would insist Ella wear "work-appropriate" clothing instead of her cute shirts.

[Loandbehold]

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Got a kick out of the fake story of a "Hogwart's for angels" school.  Although if we were playing that game, Lucifer has to be Slytherin, I imagine.  Not sure about Amenadiel.  Not quite seeing Gryffindor for him, so maybe Ravenclaw?

Uriel's definitely a Hufflepuff. As the younger brother, I can see him just chafing at "Dad's" Wizarding Hat placing him in that house and being sure that either Luci or Amenadude rigged it that way. 

[White Sheep]

Does wearing some nice shades and watching Lucy through a tv. Defuse Lucy power enough to keep his power to confess not to work. 

 

I am going to go go out on a limb here. That no eyes black guy. Is NOT the sinnerman. Just one of his lackeys.   

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

Does wearing some nice shades and watching Lucy through a tv. Defuse Lucy power enough to keep his power to confess not to work. 

I've noticed that every time Lucifer does the "What do you desire?" bit, he pretty specifically makes eye contact with the person he's asking.  I would assume from that that he needs to see and look into the eyes of the person he's asking.  Thus, dark shades would block his power.  I would also assume that said eyes(or even eye, singular) need(s) to be both intact and still within the socket(s) of the person that he's asking, not to put too fine a point on it.

 

2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

 

I am going to go go out on a limb here. That no eyes black guy. Is NOT the sinnerman. Just one of his lackeys.

Maybe.  Then again, maybe he has access to some version of supernatural healing or other ability.  Personally, I like that idea better.  It brings in the idea of "If this bastard is willing to do that to himself, what kind of horrors is he willing to rain down on others?"

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I've noticed that every time Lucifer does the "What do you desire?" bit, he pretty specifically makes eye contact with the person he's asking.  I would assume from that that he needs to see and look into the eyes of the person he's asking.  Thus, dark shades would block his power.  I would also assume that said eyes(or even eye, singular) need(s) to be both intact and still within the socket(s) of the person that he's asking, not to put too fine a point on it.

He does. But the question is, does he have to see the person's eyes or the person his eyes? I would tend to think it's the latter as something about him makes them tell him their true desire. If he knew them by looking into a person's eyes, I'd say he has to see their eyes but since it's the person who is confessing the desire when they look into Lucifer's eyes, I'd say they have to see his eyes.

[Mabinogia]

Oooh, I hadn't thought about that. I kind of thought he was seeing into their souls kind of thing, but now I'm thinking no, it's something in the looking into his eyes that compels the person to confess. Like there's a truth serum in his eyes.

I have to confess. While Lucy is hot as hell (hehe) most of the time, when he does his eye trick I always think he looks slightly deranged. Like, if someone started looking at me like that I'd be running the other way before me wears me as a coat.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

But the question is, does he have to see the person's eyes or the person his eyes?

I think both.  That's kind of what "eye contact" means.  Lucifer looks into their eyes and they look into his.  If their eyes are closed, concealed or missing, Lucifer can't look into them (and vice-versa).

[Bruinsfan]

Early on I'd have said it was the other person being able to see his (remember in the first episode the red in his eyes was screaming mouths, like windows into Hell?) But I'd have also assumed that it wouldn't really need any outside factors other than a human soul being present for his power to act upon, and the eye contact would have just been window dressing.

[Zipper]

Don't recall who said the eyes are windows to the soul, but that dude just slammed the shutters and locked 'em up tight. I liked him as an adversary-- the actor brought a nice bit of menace and enough crazy to set up the next installment.

This episode made me feel like we have been treading water all season and now the main arc is ready to get moving. If the writers buckle down and ramp up, I could see us getting a solid rest of the season.

Linda and Amy deserve to have some happiness in their lives, and I LOVE that Linda is getting to ask questions about the divine. Would like to see that continue, maybe even thematically.  But I'm not happy about a potential love triangle.  Maze seemed a bit out of character in the ask, but maybe her developing humanity has triggered this.  Or maybe her time away has made her miss Amy. Hopefully this will be a quick resolution because I have no desire to see some BS wedge driven between Maze and Linda.  

Man, Tom Welling is bad at this. Or he's getting terrible direction. I started closing my eyes when he came on screen just to see if his delivery was made any better and it's not.  Dude is flat.

Enjoying Charlotte, but no way they let her anywhere near a former client as a prosecutor. 

Having Luci stuck in that room for a minute seemed interesting, until Maze showed up. Then Luci's pounding on the door showed how thin it was.  Ruined that scene for me.

[Zipper]

One other thing about blinding-- it's a strong mythologic reference, and if I recall correctly, it's considered a divine punishment carried out either by man against himself (Oedipus) or others (Orion blinded for some offense against the gods, same too for some dude who insulted Helen of Troy). So for those backing the idea of another pantheon, this might be a clue.  Assuming this dude, Sinnerman for now, didn't get caught on purpose-- his divine counterparts might be really pissed that he screwed up. His punishment is self-blinding so he doesn't cause any more harm to their plans. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Zipper said:

His punishment is self-blinding so he doesn't cause any more harm to their plans.

Except that the blinding didn't come across as a punishment but a moment of triumph (even in the midst of defeat) by the Sinnerman over Lucifer.  While we had a taste of it with Malcolm in the first season, we've never seen a mortal with the ability to deal with the divine/demonic on its own level.  The Sinnerman might be shift in that.

[jhlipton]

On 12/10/2017 at 10:12 PM, johntfs said:

I would also assume that said eyes(or even eye, singular) need(s) to be both intact and still within the socket(s) of the person that he's asking, not to put too fine a point on it.

On 12/11/2017 at 9:24 AM, Bruinsfan said:

Early on I'd have said it was the other person being able to see his (remember in the first episode the red in his eyes was screaming mouths, like windows into Hell?) But I'd have also assumed that it wouldn't really need any outside factors other than a human soul being present for his power to act upon, and the eye contact would have just been window dressing.

Again, I ask, has Lucifer never, in the course of all human history, had to divine (if you will) the desires of a blind man or woman?  I don't buy it; not for one second.  Unless they address this obvious (to me) problem, I'm going to be pissed that they overlooked something so glaring.

 

On 12/11/2017 at 10:24 AM, Zipper said:

Orion blinded for some offense against the gods,

Orion was blinded by another human (Oenopion), but he got better

[NutMeg]

7 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Again, I ask, has Lucifer never, in the course of all human history, had to divine (if you will) the desires of a blind man or woman?  I don't buy it; not for one second.  Unless they address this obvious (to me) problem, I'm going to be pissed that they overlooked something so glaring.

 

Orion was blinded by another human (Oenopion), but he got better

Preach it! No way is Lucifer not able to get into the desire of any human, blind or not. I call shenanigans for (silly/bad) plot purposes here. 

[CheshireCat]

41 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Again, I ask, has Lucifer never, in the course of all human history, had to divine (if you will) the desires of a blind man or woman? 

Only if no blind person has ever ended up in Hell.

[wilnil]

3 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Only if no blind person has ever ended up in Hell.

It may be that since really only their souls go to Hell, not their bodies with their infirmities (which end up in a grave), they're not blind in Hell.

[johntfs]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Again, I ask, has Lucifer never, in the course of all human history, had to divine (if you will) the desires of a blind man or woman?  I don't buy it; not for one second.  Unless they address this obvious (to me) problem, I'm going to be pissed that they overlooked something so glaring.

He probably has and in the next episode he notes that he'll just have to figure out The Sinnerman's desire a different way.  The point is that Lucifer can't use his gift from God to shortcut the process with the "Look into my eyes and tell me what you desire."  Besides, Lucifer might be able to do that even with a blind person, but this guy's eyes had been cut out of his head.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

Lucifer might be able to do that even with a blind person, but this guy's eyes had been cut out of his head.

With the sunglasses, he wasn't even truly blind...

[johntfs]

9 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

With the sunglasses, he wasn't even truly blind...

True, but his eyes were concealed from Lucifer's gaze.  And also he was on camera and not in Lucifer's presence.

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

True, but his eyes were concealed from Lucifer's gaze.  And also he was on camera and not in Lucifer's presence.

In the end, it all boils down to what is always the final answer to questions like this: PLOT!!!!!!

[ganesh]

I find it hard to believe that a decent pair of Oakleys negates the celestial power of the actual devil. 

I could fan wank that doing it of free will does work. 

[ganesh]

On 12/5/2017 at 4:18 PM, kikaha said:

Here's a speculation: the Sinnerman is actually the new lieutenant. 

That was my theory from the start. On to the next episode. 

[galaxychaser]

Great episode!!! Maze is back! Linda and Marcus go away. Tom W can’t act.