S03.E06: Josh Is Irrelevant

[Snarklepuss]

20 hours ago, PumpkinPK said:

Everyone on this forum loves this show so much that I feel I can't say what I think has become of it.  So I'll just say it is not for me anymore.  This is a completely different show than it started out as.

I hear you because I agree that this show has become something it didn't start out as nor did it need to become.  I thought Rebecca was going to be "crazy" like the other quirky characters on this show such as Darryl and Nathaniel, but not in the dark way she turned out to be.  I agree that this dark element was there from the beginning but I didn't think the show was going to push that to its darkest conclusion.  When upset, people say and think a lot of things they wouldn't actually do.  And a lot of people take medication but it doesn't mean they'd commit suicide or harm other people without it.  I never thought that they'd make Rebecca someone that would actually try to burn someone's house down.  Truthfully, I don't think they needed to go there with the character.  I actually think the show would have done better to be a more lighthearted romp with our heroine being a garden variety neurotic that gets herself into all kinds of quirky situations but then somehow always comes out OK.   I don't think this even darker turn is going to do any favors for the already low ratings, either.  I love the characters and will stick with the show but I'm not loving this present direction either.  I think it's a little too serious for the type of show it is.  I say that in spite of thinking that they've actually handled it pretty well so far.

[theatremouse]

I posit the show didn't so much "go there" as much as it was always leading there. Ie I don't think this was something they decided to do for this season. I think this was always where they intended to go with it. I don't think Bloom ever intended this to be a lighthearted romp. Those bits were there as something for Rebecca to come crashing down from.

[Irlandesa]

42 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I don't think this even darker turn is going to do any favors for the already low ratings, either.

Ratings are actually up a bit this year, on average.  They're still low but the new turn doesn't seem to be detrimental to its core viewership.

17 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

I posit the show didn't so much "go there" as much as it was always leading there.

Absolutely.  And I think they were pretty up front with it.  I can understand how the more overt aspect of mental illness isn't everyone's cup of tea but I feel like we were told early on that the show was not going to simply ignore how messed up Rebecca's actions were.  So the things she did that, on other shows, might be hand waved as quirky or forgotten the next week, were building blocks leading up to this moment.  And Rebecca's steps towards trying to be better only to turn to the "simple" solution like Josh over therapy were also leading up to this.

Again, I'm used to shows treating bad behavior by their protagonists lightly and so I understand not wanting to dwell but I also feel like so often shows have their protagonists do those things with no regard on how it makes them look. So when they look like jerks, it's unintentional on the writers' part.  I don't worry about that here.  It's all intentional.

[Snarklepuss]

1 minute ago, Irlandesa said:

Again, I'm used to shows treating bad behavior by their protagonists lightly and so I understand not wanting to dwell but I also feel like so often shows have their protagonists do those things with no regard on how it makes them look. So when they look like jerks, it's unintentional on the writers' part.  I don't worry about that here.  It's all intentional.

I don't know, even if intentional the show seems to be working on two different wavelengths.  The quirky antics like stalking and all that can be viewed seriously or they can be viewed in terms of comedy.  How many screwed up things have sitcoms had their characters do like stalking, etc., but it's all part of the comedy and not to be taken as a function of any serious illness?  This show certainly took advantage of the comedic factor in all of the wacky out-there stuff Rebecca did on this show, plus all her quirky, funny friends, and now that she's gone over the line into really serious territory we're suddenly supposed to stop laughing, sober up and realize how fucked up all that was in light of her mental illness?  I think that's a little too much of a 180 degree turn, but that's just my opinion.

12 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Ratings are actually up a bit this year, on average.  They're still low but the new turn doesn't seem to be detrimental to its core viewership.

It may be too soon to tell yet, and it depends on where they go from here as well.  I'm sure that for every person like me who has grown attached to the characters and won't give up on the show there is another one like the poster above that doesn't want to go where they're going.

[Irlandesa]

49 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

How many screwed up things have sitcoms had their characters do like stalking, etc., but it's all part of the comedy and not to be taken as a function of any serious illness? 

That's exactly my point.  Lots of shows.  And then they never address those crazy things they do for comedy until, after seven seasons, I'm looking at these characters and think they're all toxic for one another.  But somehow, in the finale, all is forgiven or a couple reunites, the audience awws and we're just supposed to think it's all going to work out in spite of what the previous years have shown us. 

Sometimes I can go along with it because it's the ending I want, darnit.  Sometimes, a show goes too far and I think they all need to separate and go into therapy.  But just because it's supposed to be "in service of the comedy" doesn't mean a viewer automatically forgets it...especially if a comedy decides to serialize itself where every episode serves the show's overall arc.

I never saw Crazy Ex as that kind of show.  It seemed to always understand why something would happen and what the fallout would be in a believable way.

49 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

This show certainly took advantage of the comedic factor in all of the wacky out-there stuff Rebecca did on this show, plus all her quirky, funny friends, and now that she's gone over the line into really serious territory we're suddenly supposed to stop laughing, sober up and realize how fucked up all that was in light of her mental illness?

The show is a dramedy so of course it took care of the comedy*. But I also think it took care of the drama.  And I don't think the show springing Rebecca's mental illness on us is sudden at all.  It was telegraphed very early on and I think it was pretty clear that if Rebecca were ever to be found out, things would be seriously bad for her.  The show has been pointing out the dysfunction from the first season with Paula recognizing her obsession was bad, Greg realizing he's an alcoholic and Rebecca wondering if she's the villain in her own story.  Other comedies are other comedies but I feel Crazy Ex has always been upfront that we were heading for a meltdown.

*The past few shows have been darker but I do think they're still funny.  And quirky.

But like I said, I get why the darker turn might not be everyone's cup of tea.  Where I disagree is that the show suddenly played a big switch on us or did a 180.  If it feels new, it's because I can't recall a show that has done this kind of thing so well.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Snarklepuss]

24 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

But like I said, I get why the darker turn might not be everyone's cup of tea.  Where I disagree is that the show suddenly played a big switch on us or did a 180.  If it feels new, it's because I can't recall a show that has done this kind of thing so well.

I actually agree with you, and I wouldn't be surprised if the show finds a very clever way to bring back some lightness after this "rock bottom" period, which I think will be a good thing.  Judging from how they've handled the show so far I think they can pull it off successfully.

[PumpkinPK]

There are too many good posts above to quote them all, but very well said to the last several posts.

I'm not really interested in the borderline diagnosis or following Rebecca's recovery from it.

I think the actors are all quite talented, but the clever writing seems to have gone downhill.  Scenes are dragged out much longer than they need to be.  At this point, it would be better off being a half hour show.

For how surprising the mental health issues and suicide attempt were to me, so much of the rest of the show is so predictable.

Darryl's character has just become whiny, long-winded and insufferable.  I can't remember the last time Paula's character has a line to deliver without her furrowed brow and concern.  When Josh walked up with the puppy (ita pets are not gifts!), who didn't know he would overhear the conversation and slump away a sad sack.

None of the characters really have developing stories or lives of their own, it's all about Rebecca's mental health now.  Not sure how the law firm is even in business.

The first season brought me a lot of joy and laughter, and the songs were treasures.  The show was always a bit dark, but it's gone so far and presumably has to become a bit lighter.  Watching that journey is just not of interest to me.  Plus I really do like the current cast and I imagine they will be pushed aside for new people in Rebecca's recovery (therapist, psychiatrist, zany people in her therapy group, etc.).  I don't care to get to know them.

Edited November 22, 2017 by PumpkinPK

[Jrae9233]

Honestly, the only reason I have ever been able to enjoy Rebecca was because I knew they were gonna "go there". Nothing she has done is cute or quirkt. I have always hated that comedies chose to show these horrible traits as something to ignore and not that big of a deal.

 

It's been pretty awesome to have a show, show the dangerous side of mental illness. Yes, I have my funny moments, but my disorder also causes a lot of problems in my life. It's obvious the show knows and understands mental illnesses. 

[holly4755]

I have to wonder what show other people thought they were watching? Last season I was a bit squicked out with some of the comedy scenes because they were so close to the truth of the  lucy ethel comedy being sick behavior.  Sometimes this show triggered a reminder of something I did wrong. Yes I stalked (thoughts of revenge also) someone for a short period of time because they were gaslighting/lying/using me and I needed to know the truth, no it was not my "lying eyes". But once it was confirmed, I stopped.  Still that behavior is a sickness, I felt over the top doing that. This season with the illness in the open,  It is almost calming to me.  But from the first show, I knew there was something wrong with Rachel and it gave it a darkness with the humor. 

[DianeDobbler]

Quote

I actually think the show would have done better to be a more lighthearted romp with our heroine being a garden variety neurotic that gets herself into all kinds of quirky situations but then somehow always comes out OK.

CEG has always been an overt deconstruction of that sort of show. Always. Said plainly by the show runners in every interview. There's the story Rebecca tells herself, which might be zany girl gets in scrapes, but the story the SHOW is telling us has always been different. The information has been in every episode. Not to mention it's called Crazy Ex Girlfriend for a reason. Bloom and Brosh have explicitly said it is NOT about a crazy, zany girl doing crazy, zany things. It's a send up of the trope that portrays women like that without examining what's beneath the behavior. 

Remember the show when Rebecca sent the text? Part of the episode was "zany", with the "Textmergency" song, but the episode ended with "Stupid Bitch." That was a dark, despairing song of self-loathing. Sample lyrics:

You ruined everything
You stupid, stupid bitch
You're just a lying little bitch who ruins things
And wants the world to burn
Bitch
You're a stupid bitch
And lose some weight

How can a show start off with a protogonist who is on tons of medication, suffering from insomnia, a horrible relationship with her mother, drinks to medicate herself, has a panic attack when offered a promotion, and on a chance meeting with an old boyfriend, upends her entire life to go to a meh town in California to pursue the guy? Bloom is a feminist, always has been, it informs her work, always has. The youtube video that interested Aline McKenna in Bloom in the first place was the dark Disney princess video, where the princess finds herself in a "real" middle ages town, with the real suffering, starvation, torture, etc. This is not a team that was going to start with that sort of premise in the premiere and then portray her escaping to West Covina as zany. Bloom and her writers have always, always critiqued that sort of idea through Rebecca. The show was always this. It was never a zany show they decided they'd turn dark. It uses comedy to address some serious ideas, but not nihilistic ones. Human ones, with hope. But it's showing us a more honest path towards hope.

I also like that they're telling a long story here, with an arc. Not setting fixed personas for the characters and cycling them through situations. It's not, let's keep Rebecca's zany actions going until she finally figures out what guy she wants to be with. It's never been that.  I think once she's better she has a lot of stuff she has to figure out, including whether she wants to continue being a lawyer (I think the show has told us numerous times that she was kind of railroaded into that profession, and Bloom herself has said it's not a good fit for Rebecca.)

That said, I do agree that some of the secondary characters have suffered. Josh was never a wiz kid but I think some of the dumb jokes have been cheap. He was not a dumb ass. They've regressed Paula without explaining it. I agree Darryl could use a refresh. I think they've chosen a way to write for Nathaniel that works, but his mom and Rebecca are completely different personalities, so I don't see why Rebecca would resonate with him based on that, pills or no pills. The way the two women expressed their problems was opposite. One was completely inexpressive and withheld, the other all over the place.

Edited November 22, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[DrBriCa]

On 11/19/2017 at 2:48 PM, theatremouse said:

Something that was intriguing to me this episode was when Rebecca was giving her list of her previous (wrong) diagnoses, she mentioned depression, anxiety and OCD. I'm pretty sure previous episodes certainly implied she'd been diagnosed with depression and/or general anxiety disorder, and I think while the show definitely supports a diagnosis of BPD, they also did enough things to give depression-ish and anxiety-ish vibes. (Also I think it's not uncommon for people with BPD to show some symptoms in common with depression and anxiety). So none of that is shocking or contradictory. However I can't think of anything in-show that struck me as particularly conspicuously OCD, nor do I remember them ever mentioning it before. Not that that precludes it, and certainly anxiety and OCD are homeys, but it was interesting to me in the moment to hear that specific list of three. Of course, she's a fictional character and plenty of people with OCD either have mild enough cases or are just really good at hiding it from others. Still now it's got me wracking my brain for anything we've seen onscreen that would've supported her previous diagnosis. I mean, obviously, the show just set it up as a wrong diagnosis, so maybe it makes sense that one of the things they mentioned was a bit of a "huh?" Still I find myself looking for some small subset of behaviour that would make it make more sense why a previous doctor might've leaned in that direction. Definitely, she's obsessive. Not remotely in question. Although I guess that's the point is that just because she's obsessive doesn't mean OCD would've been the right answer, since it...wasn't.

Probably the biggest in-show example of OCD behavior would be her attempts at copying the DIY wedding, especially when she rebuked offers to assist her and would not take any shortcuts, even on pastry design or whatnot. Also the aptly named "Research Me Obsessively" (oops! it's three days later...) While OCD is most commonly represented on tv with the need for order and/or cleanliness, the "obsessive" part can include persistent intrusive thoughts that can seem concerning or bizarre (e.g. everything in "Feeling Kinda Naughty," repeatedly wanting to ask a hook-up "please don't be a murderer/harvest my kidneys," everything "Swim-Chan.") 

Plus, when she does decide to work, Rebecca usually goes all-in for discovery/research and in planning her cases. She likely was able to make it through two Ivy League schools by having some ingrained patterns for studying. (Numerous med students wonder briefly if they might have 'Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder' when they review those traits and reflect on their own study habits that helped get them into med school!)

I definitely think the BPD diagnosis fits her better, especially with her actions this season alone, but those are some examples where a clinician might consider OCD in the differential.

[Snarklepuss]

23 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

CEG has always been an overt deconstruction of that sort of show. Always. Said plainly by the show runners in every interview. There's the story Rebecca tells herself, which might be zany girl gets in scrapes, but the story the SHOW is telling us has always been different. The information has been in every episode. Not to mention it's called Crazy Ex Girlfriend for her reason. It's in the title. Bloom and Brosh have explicitly said it is NOT about a crazy, zany girl doing crazy, zany things. It's a send up of the trope that portrays women like that without examining what's beneath the behavior.  How can a show start off with a protogonist who is on tons of medication, suffering from insomnia, a horrible relationship with her mother, drinks to medicate herself, has a panic attack when offered a promotion, and on a chance meeting with an old boyfriend, upends her entire life to go to a meh town in California to pursue the guy? Bloom is a feminist, always has been, it informs her work, always has. The youtube video that interested Aline McKenna in Bloom was the dark Disney princess video, where the princess finds herself in a "real" middle ages town, with the real suffering, starvation, torture, etc. This is not a team that was going to start with that sort of premise in the premiere and then portray her escaping to West Covina as zany. It's the sort of storytelling that WOULD portray it that way that Bloom and her writers have always, always critiqued through Rebecca and through that show. They don't like that portrayal of women. They don't like that trope. The show was always this. It was never a zany show they decided they'd turn dark.

Oh of course, I don't doubt that all of this is true, but it still doesn't mean I have to like it.  I personally think the portrayal of women not being as ill as Rebecca has been written is a more inspiring and feminist storyline.  This just feeds into the old garbage that women are all crazy.  Plus, lot of "normal" people do some arguably crazy things when going through some life shit.  She didn't have to be written as a suicidal bunny burner, but whatever.  This show has always come off to me as a comedy more than a "dramedy", although right now it's pretty much over the line into a drama.  I wasn't really on board with that just going by how the show came off to me in the first couple of seasons.  I didn't read any of the background of the writers, but I shouldn't really have to, IMO.

[DianeDobbler]

20 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

his just feeds into the old garbage that women are all crazy. 

I think it does the opposite.  She's not crazy, zany, quirky. She has an illness. That's the point - behavior that society or the culture might call crazy in women or ascribe to their love life isn't.

DrBriCi - obsession can also be a sign of OCD. Persistent thoughts in the patterns you describe, etc. It gets less attention than the kind of OCD people are more familiar with - rituals and stuff. I'm glad you brought that up, and we could definitely see it in Rebecca's wedding planning.

Edited November 22, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[possibilities]

I agree the show is not as fun lately, but I have more respect for it because it's taking on an issue that is frankly never or almost never taken on in "entertainment" in any kind of meaningful way, and they are not only taking it on, but they are doing an additional something I love, which is to simultaneously hold her accountable while also loving her and holding her enablers and codependents and trigger people accountable for their stuff, too. It's not about getting anyone off the hook or throwing anyone away; it's about the system of people who all participate in interlocking dysfunctions, Rebecca is the fulcrum, but it's not just about her, and she's really just an excuse for everybody else, because they are all actively participating for their own reasons, and are all responsible for their own shit, and have all contributed in various ways to what is happening in their lives, even though it's convenient for them all to think of it as "because of Rebecca."

I think the "people do crazy stuff; isn't that cute and fun?" narrative most shows take for this kind of behavior is deeply disturbing, and extremely anti-feminist because it normalizes and fetishizes behavior that comes from pathology, damning everyone to stay stuck in it rather than getting healthy and empowered.

"I'm just a girl in love!" has been turned on its head here, in favor of driving Rebecca to what hopefully could be actual love, sanity, and a truly satisfying life, not just more and more desperation and delusion.

I was worried the show was going to be about how women are just a bunch of irrational crazies who go off for no reason, and the humor would be at her expense and an attempt to make Josh et al look like victims and Rebecca into a villain. But I think they've not only avoided that BS, but have actually completely dismantled it. I'm super impressed by it, and I am very grateful that the network has continued to produce the show instead of cancelling it because of the low ratings.

I wonder if there are some people who are actually attracted to the show MORE because of where it's headed. I definitely understand if some people are turning it off because they aren't up for the degree of seriousness and pain it's showcasing lately, but I think there are probably also people who didn't watch before because they thought it was going to just make light of things that to them are already very painful and serious.

One thing I love about the current media landscape is that shows stick around for people to find and catch up on, even if they missed them in first airing. So once a show's direction becomes clear, people can pick up or drop off in a way that wasn't possible when you got one shot when it aired live, and then maybe a second chance during a summer rerun if you were lucky.

[SomeTameGazelle]

This was probably a necessary episode but there wasn't really anything in it that I felt that I enjoyed. And on the one hand there was too much Nathaniel for me while on the other hand I feel that if they wanted to introduce his mother's overdose in this episode it would have been helpful to have some taste of his family in the previous episode. But since I kind of resent having to care about Nathaniel's emotions I suppose I would have complained about that as well. I'm starting to have flashbacks to how I felt about Adam in Being Erica.

[DianeDobbler]

Possibilities, I agree with everything you wrote. I can only critique some of the handling of the subsidiary characters who at times appear to be treading water for plot reasons.

I think they showed us Nathaniel's family so we'd know why he was so accepting of Rebecca; however, I thought the portrayal of his family was beyond cliche'd with the martinis, the lamb for dinner, and don't dare say anything directly about anything, and also it didn't scan with Rebecca's situation as much as maybe the show runners thought it did. His mother's deal is nothing like Rebecca's other than the two of them having had an o.d. It doesn't explain why Rebecca's personality would resonate with Nathaniel and he'd be comfortable with it, as the show runners seemed to think it would based on a post-show interview.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Iseut]

Anyway. Actually the only time Crazy Ex Girlfriend has ever made me ask "WTF" was when a homeless woman asked Rebecca for some money and she said, "I only have 20s. Which I got by WORKING."  I was - oh, we're that type of show. Maybe it's not for me. But then they never cycled back to that angle of Rebecca, who has never seemed the type to say something like that (I'd love to have a more general discussion of the show but don't see a general discussion thread!)

That was a really jarring joke (and also darkly hilarious), but it came around so well in the end, with Rebecca involuntarily celebrating her happiness with the homeless woman, as opposed to orchestrating an act of kindness, as she had been doing earlier in the episode. 

Rebecca hitting rock bottom has been pretty hard to watch, though due to scenarios like the one I just mentioned, I have complete faith that the show has a direction and that the ups and downs will continue to tie in together in a way that makes sense for the character and the show. 

My reaction to her diagnosis has sort of reminded me of my reaction to the infamous Seinfeld finale...throughout the series I've found Rebecca and the Seinfeld characters to be so relatable, that when they are called out by medical/law professionals and general society for being faulty in some way, it makes me wonder if the writers are saying that the characters are totally over the top, or if they're also "diagnosing" their audience as having the same faults.  I suppose the characters are just deeply sketched reflections of the viewers. A little disturbing for characters I feel like I have such a connection with though...like, wait, should I be diagnosed too? Or, I don't belong in jail, do I? 

[mrsbagnet]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:52 PM, Iseut said:

My reaction to her diagnosis has sort of reminded me of my reaction to the infamous Seinfeld finale...throughout the series I've found Rebecca and the Seinfeld characters to be so relatable, that when they are called out by medical/law professionals and general society for being faulty in some way, it makes me wonder if the writers are saying that the characters are totally over the top, or if they're also "diagnosing" their audience as having the same faults.  I suppose the characters are just deeply sketched reflections of the viewers. A little disturbing for characters I feel like I have such a connection with though...like, wait, should I be diagnosed too? Or, I don't belong in jail, do I? 

This reminds of the first time I read The Catcher in the Rye in high school. Somehow I missed that Holden was in a sanatarium. As I was reading the book, I marveled at how much I could relate to the character and how I'd had some of the same thoughts he had. He seemed perfectly normal to me. When we discussed the book in class, I was shocked to find out he was in a hospital due to mental health issues. It made me wonder if there were something wrong with me.

I thought we saw Nathaniel's family so that 1) we could see the source of his angst, self-doubt and rigidness, and 2) he could have an emotional breakthrough of his own. The talk with his mom seemed to have "unblocked" him.

[Bruinsfan]

On 11/22/2017 at 8:24 AM, Jrae9233 said:

Honestly, the only reason I have ever been able to enjoy Rebecca was because I knew they were gonna "go there". Nothing she has done is cute or quirkt. I have always hated that comedies chose to show these horrible traits as something to ignore and not that big of a deal.

It's been pretty awesome to have a show, show the dangerous side of mental illness. Yes, I have my funny moments, but my disorder also causes a lot of problems in my life. It's obvious the show knows and understands mental illnesses. 

This. I initially skipped out on the show based on the title, thinking it would be the bastard child of I Love Lucy and one of the innumerable shows and movies revolving around a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, but finding out that it has an honest approach to mental illness that it still manages to find humor in drew me in and made me a fan. It's now one of my three must-see scripted shows (along with Lucifer and The Good Place, so you can see how well-acted subversive approaches to sensitive topics might be my cup of tea).

[aradia22]

I'm finally catching up on the DVR. Anyway...

The beginning was a little shaky for me. I thought the acting could have been better. I also feel like the storyline in general is in a weird place. Because on the one hand, a lot of what people (particularly Paula) are telling Rebecca totally makes sense for someone who is depressed/suicidal. But we've also seen that Rebecca is somewhat self-centered/narcissistic and prone to lethargy, apathy, etc. So telling someone like that they don't need to worry about anyone else and they don't have to make major decisions and the constant reassurances that no one's mad, etc. feel a little uncomfortable. If this was more extreme and Rebecca had a pathology where you crave attention or something like that then doing bad things, staging a suicide attempt, and then getting all this sympathy and attention plays right into that. I'm not saying that's what is happening here but I'm also not sure these are the best messages for her to be getting.

Just me or is it a little funny that Nathaniel saw "full and lush" and decided this is the floral arrangement I should send to Rebecca?

I really liked the first song of the episode though it was clear the entire time that in spite of how hopeful it sounded, Rebecca wasn't going to get what she wanted with lines about "easy fixes" and that sort of thing.

Wow, borderline personality. They're going there. 

Valencia getting swept up in online celebrity or vlogging or #inspiration posts or whatever that was supposed to be wasn't funny or especially relevant. Nathaniel's C plot worked better. I feel like they just didn't have a sense of what they wanted to say with the Valencia story. It was more commenting on the phenomenon than actually being critical in an interesting way. 

I usually don't like those kinds of tops but I really liked Valencia's top with the loose ruffle detail.

Yeah, see... this is what worried me. Even though Paula is wonderful and supportive she's too much of an enabler to be the person Rebecca spends time with right out of the hospital. Shopping around for a different diagnosis?

Bernice! That got me. Excellent priming after Denise in the hospital.

Did they switch actors for Nathaniel's dad?

Even though I didn't like the Valencia vlogging plot, I did enjoy the mockery of the inspirational ballad. It was like Heather's inspirational leaving college song. The shade. 

A bit odd that Dr. Akopian was having sessions so late. But lol, Kevin.

Overall, I didn't think this was the strongest episode. I think they're still on shaky ground getting to where they need to. But hopefully these set up episodes will pay off. I did like the songs. They were more effective storytelling devices this episode than the script. 

LOL, what? Intruder ax? Famous murder house?

Valencia had a lovely acting moment at the end. I don't know what's going on. I think it has something to do with how the scenes at shot. First it was the cut that made it seem like they gave her time to get emotional before cutting to her that felt disingenuous. Then there was just weird framing with the angles and wide shots. It felt like the wrong choice.

Darryl. XD

Aw, that little puppy. Was that a terrier?

I liked Rebecca's final outfit with the jean jacket. Very Old Navy/catalog model... but in a cute way.

By the way... is Rebecca still employed at her law firm?

[aradia22]

Quote

OK, I'll admit it - I was a little surprised about BPD being such a stigmatized disorder (as mentioned on the show and in this thread).  While I've heard of it, I never would have considered it any differently than any other mental health issue. 

I would have liked to at least see a nod to Naomi - maybe Rebecca just getting off the phone with her when Paula comes in the room.  "bye, mom.  thanks for calling.  love you."  I thought it was weird she wasn't even mentioned.

I didn't attach the stigmas that Rebecca googled about suicide or it being untreatable to BPD. But I think BPD and bipolar and those sorts of diagnoses get a bad rap as more erratic and emotional. Whether its diagnosed in universe or viewers are analyzing characters outside of a show, my sense is that the really over the top, manipulative, destructive, etc. characters are the ones that tend to get labeled with BPD and bipolar. They have negative associations more than other disorders that are more about withdrawing or being self-critical (which is more sympathetic, especially gendered female).

I do agree that the show is oddly reluctant to sometimes take the simple step of throwing in a few lines that establish things without needing a character to be on screen.

I also agree with @DianeDobbler that there's a bit of inconsistency with how some of the characters are being portrayed. They take some time to flesh out the other characters but it's really Rebecca's story so sometimes the other characters need to serve their purpose in her story and then it can later be hard to reconcile those actions/behaviors with their own narratives/characterizations.

[STOPSHOUTING]

I think destigmatizing mental illness and portraying suicide and its dangers, causes and the aftermath of an unsuccessful attempt are bold, brave and important things ... I also think that Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is not the venue to do any of that very well. I get that I'm in the minority here, which is cool, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or take anything away from those who are getting more out of this than I am. Seriously. I respect those opinions, this is just mine ...

I watched the season premiere after very mixed thoughts about last season (which I didn't finish until this fall) and then just never got back to it. Then I sat down and watched to this point, admittedly fast-forwarding through a lot of stuff because this show I once loved -- ADORED, even -- is just not working for me in its present form, and I find huge chunks of it either tonally off-putting, or boring, or so eye-roll inducing on my part, that I end up just skipping past many scenes.  But the main problem is ... I just don't care anymore. I don't care what happens to Josh, or Heather (they've done so little with her since day one, it's criminal), or Valencia, or Daryl. But, mostly, I don't care about Rebecca. Like, at all. Dark comedy is good. Serious drama is good. But the mix of the two they're trying to do here? In my opinion, they're not pulling off either. 

Rebecca seems much too stable, much too fast, given her breakdown and suicide attempt but, maybe that's because her friends are utterly unrealistic. I realize they had to stay on the show and having them involved and interested and caring for Rebecca is part of the plot, but it rings SO false. First of all, they all just found out these AWFUL, frankly legitimately frightening, things about Rebecca, a person they've all known for less than year, and now know she's been lying to them that entire time, so they don't really know her at all. Yet, they all love her unconditionally and drop everything to help her and even defend her against the supposedly evil Josh Chan.

As a character, I kind of hate Josh, yet even I can see that Rebecca has done FAR more wrong to him, than he to her. He SHOULDN'T have married her. That was a TERRIBLE idea, for both of them, and while he didn't handle it in the best method, he's been nothing but kind to Rebecca from minute one, while she stalked, pursued and sabotaged he and his closest buddies, and then tried to strip him of his friend group by gaslighting them all. The same friend group that was instantly willing to turn on someone they'd known since childhood, is totally devoted to someone they just met who ruined so many lives. It just makes no sense that the entire community is, instantly, Team Rebecca, for no logical reason.

She's treated every one of these people like dirt. And, yes, a suicide attempt can bring people back into your lives out of concern, but the reality is ... They don't stay. The problems that existed before the attempt, remain after. And Rebecca has SERIOUS problems that would make it not only unlikely, but unwise and unsafe for many of these people to continue to live with and care for her. And for the show to portray otherwise actually seems like a kind of dangerous message…try and kill yourself and all will be solved/forgiven. That's just not the case. Or even close.

Nathan, a guy she slept with once and who has known her just a few months, who learned she's destroyed not one, but two men's  lives, in cruel, harsh and physically dangerous ways is still just loyally and totally in love with her. Because...Reasons? I never felt their relationship was realistic to begin with, but this has taken it well beyond general skepticism. While I've come to enjoy Nathan as a character--quite a bit, actually--his lovesick pursuit of Rebecca is both baffling and such an unrealistic fantasy of the show's creators,  that it constantly takes me out of the show. I don't care what his mother's experience was, and hardly believe it would endear Rebecca to him (more likely the opposite). To have not even a single qualm after all he's learned, regarding Rebecca either as a partner or an employee, should  blow even the most credulous mind.

Would one friend stay by her? Sure. That I buy. But EVERYONE rallying to her side?  No. Just no. If they want to portray mental illness and its effect realistically, dealing with the isolation, life upheaval and total social realignment that follows a failed suicide and subsequent serious mental diagnosis would seem to be a much more helpful and relatable way to go. 

Instead, Rebecca is happily ensconced in her friend group. Has no money or insurance issues, despite resigning from her job. Her mother didn't even come to the hospital, apparently, thanks to expensive guest casting, and her career and romantic options seem to remain totally intact. That's not how this works. 

Oh and, the show runners have talked themselves blue about Rebecca's behavior never being cute, but being mental illness and turning rom-com tropes on their head and all that is ... great. Except, they're not even true to that because they still play Paula's totally outrageous behavior for a laugh, what with inserting GPS trackers in her friend and the like. Ha, ha! I don't think it works to have it both ways. "You'll appreciate it if you're ever sex trafficked," is a great, funny line ... But Valencia shrugging it off doesn't actually work in the realistic world of mental illness the show is also trying to portray. Because Rebecca's problems can't be seriously dealt with BPD and Paula's adorable and humorous in the same breath.

I don't think it's totally the show's fault. I honestly don't think you can make a mental illness rom-com. I don't think it's possible. Or, if it is, I don't think Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is doing a very a good job of it.

When it was a dark comedy, showing that rom-com tropes aren't cute, but probably closer to crazy, and showed Rebecca's dysfunctions as definitely not OK, but also laughed at those same tropes and Rebecca's glimmers of self-awareness, I really enjoyed it, and thought it was a nice twist on how so many portray the "goofy" girl.  I think the problem is that mental illness is serious, and sad, and deserves to be viewed compassionately ... But serious compassion is not funny, and the more earnest and less acerbic the show has become, the less I've personally enjoyed it, and the tonal mix between that pitch black, snarky comedic heart and the earnest social message stuff just didn't gel.

Edited February 22, 2018 by STOPSHOUTING
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