S13.E05: Advanced Thanatology

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know that I'd say Dean has a death wish as much as Dean just doesn't think he has a purpose anymore so he doesn't care if he lives or dies. So, I wouldn't say he's suicidal, but severely depressed and being reckless with his own life.

I don't see where Dean was being reckless in this episode. He had the antidote and told Sam when to use it. It was risky but no more risky  than in s6 when he sought Death to get Sams soul back.

IMO, Dean was reckless and suicidal when he sought death by werewolf but not the intentional OD. He asked for the doctor to  resuscitate him when the time came. He did it to ask for Sams life, which he did  because Sam had to be alive to take on Amara since Dean didn't think he could.

On another note, I think it's weird that Sam left a passed out Dean on the floor. And really how could Dean have gotten past Sam and been so drunk that he what fell on the floor. Or did he crawl past Sam and just slept on the floor?

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know that I'd say Dean has a death wish as much as Dean just doesn't think he has a purpose anymore so he doesn't care if he lives or dies. So, I wouldn't say he's suicidal, but severely depressed and being reckless with his own life.

Agree. Reckless, yes, suicidal, no. As soon as the ghost kid tells Dean  what he 'died' to find out, Dean immediately  runs back to Sam and his body, fully expecting to be revived. It isn't until his conversation with Billie that he considers staying dead.  

@catrox14 I think Dean felt more guilt over (omg can't think of her name) not getting her shot at being healed than over the guy who died in his place. They had no part in choosing his fate, but it was them who stopped Roy just as he was healing her. I agree with the spirit of your post but I'd say it began with IMTOD.

ETA: Layla. Doh! 

Edited November 12, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
Doh!

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see where Dean was being reckless in this episode. He had the antidote and told Sam when to use it. It was risky but no more risky  than in s6 when he sought Death to get Sams soul back.

I think it was an incredible risk to take considering that even Dr. Robert had only a 75 percent success rate and he was a doctor who had done the procedure many times. I thought it was a incredible risk to take back in S6, too, but I'm not sure killing yourself to talk with a bunch of ghosts when there are other ways to talk with ghosts and killing yourself to talk to Death in order to get your brother's soul back because he was uncontrollable and dangerous and the only other option you had left was killing said brother, is really the same thing, 

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with the spirit of your post but I'd say it began with IMTOD. 

What's interesting to me is to look at the difference between Dean in In My Time of Dying, where he begged for his life saying his family needed him and all, and here where he was like, "Keep me dead or not, it doesn't matter one way or the other to me." I also thought the kid who didn't talk but drew his fears over and over and over was also an interesting comparison to Dean and the kid in Dead in the Water. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

catrox14 I think Dean felt more guilt over (omg can't think of her name) no getting her shot at being healed than over the guy who died in his place. They had no part in choosing his fate, but it was them who stopped Roy just as he was healing her. I agree with the spirit of your post but I'd say it began with IMTOD. 

I think it was both Marshall and Julie Benz. Yet I always thought Marshall bothered him more because he was the guy that died instead of Dean and who was completely innocent essentially.

Quote

Wait, wait, wait. So, Marshall Hall died to save me?

SAM
(looking upset) Dean, the guy probably would've died anyway. And someone else would've been healed.

....................................

INTERIOR. CHURCH TENT.

ROY has his hand on the forehead of an old man in a wheelchair with an oxygen tube.

...................................

INTERIOR. MOTEL

DEAN
You never should've brought me here.

SAM
Dean, I was just trying to save your life.

DEAN
But, Sam, some guy is dead now because of me.

SAM
I didn't know.

[Quark]

"Burned by a red-haired witch".

Please let that mean Rowena is alive and well! I miss the evil cow.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it was an incredible risk to take considering that even Dr. Robert had only a 75 percent success rate and he was a doctor who had done the procedure many times. I thought it was a incredible risk to take back in S6, too, but I'm not sure killing yourself to talk with a bunch of ghosts when there are other ways to talk with ghosts and killing yourself to talk to Death in order to get your brother's soul back because he was uncontrollable and dangerous and the only other option you had left was killing said brother, isn't really the same thing, 

Which is why I said it was risky vs reckless. Reckless implies no  thought being given at all as to the possible consequences of an action. Dean knew what would happen and was prepared. He knew the risk and took it. He could have given Sam a heads up that he had that option his back pocket but that doesn't make it  reckless nor suicidal ideation. Dean would just shoot himself if he really wanted to end it. He wouldn't do it in front of Sam either IMO

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

On another note, I think it's weird that Sam left a passed out Dean on the floor. And really how could Dean have gotten past Sam and been so drunk that he what fell on the floor. Or did he crawl past Sam and just slept on the floor?

Also, why wasn't Sam with him? Did Dean sneak out? Or did Sam just say okay, the jig is up, after the conversation at the hotel lobby and let Dean go out on his own?

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Which is why I said it was risky vs reckless. Reckless implies no  thought being given at all as to the possible consequences of an action. Dean knew what would happen and was prepared. He knew the risk and took it. He could have given Sam a heads up that he had that option his back pocket but that doesn't make it  reckless nor suicidal ideation. Dean would just shoot himself if he really wanted to end it. He wouldn't do it in front of Sam either IMO

As I said, I don't think he was suicidal or trying to commit suicide, but I don't think he did act with much thought or consider the risk either. Back in S6? Yes. He asked questions and understood he might not come back, but took the risk he would. And even when he took the pills in Read Meat, he seemed to consider he might not come back, but took the risk anyway. Here, I don't think he considered the risk as much as just acted in the moment.

TBH, I think Death's words to Dean back in S6 have never rung more true than in this episode--"You throw away your life because you've come to assume that it'll bounce right back into your lap." I think Dean just assumed he would be brought back and didn't consider what would happen if he wasn't. Which I consider reckless.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, why wasn't Sam with him? Did Dean sneak out? Or did Sam just say okay, the jig is up, after the conversation at the hotel lobby and let Dean go out on his own?

I got the impression Dean maybe went out on his own. Sam seemed surprised Dean wasn't in his bed, so I figured Dean couldn't sleep and went out to clear his head and just ended up at that strip club. I'd guess Dean just passed out on the floor while Sam was sleeping. I thought Sam should've given him a blanket and pillow, but I thought it was nice of him not to wake Dean up and instead let him sleep it off. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

I didn't like the Dean passed out on the floor scenario.  It's a side of Dean where they go way over the top IMO, similar to the messy eating we get each week.

Dean's life is filled with violence, despair and loss yet the guy still finds joy in almost anything.... even a rainbow slinky.  I admire him so much for that trait and wish I could be the same. 

But they could've had him walk through the motel door that morning, looking haggard, hair tousled, shirt untucked, etc., and saying he decided to check out the reviews... or whatever.  

[MysteryGuest]

I think if Dean were in a better place emotionally, he might have thought twice about doing something so extreme, but I still don't think he's suicidal.  There have only been two instances where I thought Dean really wanted to die, and that was the brief moment in Red Meat right after Sam died, and when he was desperately trying to inhale the poisoned air when he thought everyone was going to die and didn't want to be the only survivor.  I do think he has a pretty fatalistic view of life though, which is what allows him to take the risks he does.  He doesn't think he's going to live to a ripe old age, but this is the gig he signed up for, so he's just going to do what he needs to do.

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I didn't like the Dean passed out on the floor scenario.  It's a side of Dean where they go way over the top IMO, similar to the messy eating we get each week.

The scene really didn't even make much sense.  Are we to assume that Dean just walked through the hotel with the tie wrapped around his head, the hot pink bra around his neck and the whip in his hand?  I could more believe that if he'd woken up in the bed he'd been in with whoever the woman was.  Since I don't think he brought her back to the room he shared with Sam, it was definitely over-the-top.  

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Which is why I said it was risky vs reckless. Reckless implies no  thought being given at all as to the possible consequences of an action. Dean knew what would happen and was prepared. He knew the risk and took it. He could have given Sam a heads up that he had that option his back pocket but that doesn't make it  reckless nor suicidal ideation. Dean would just shoot himself if he really wanted to end it. He wouldn't do it in front of Sam either IMO

Rewatching the Billie/Dean scene again, and when Dean asks if she's keeping him dead and she says that depends on him, Dean infers that to mean it's his choice - and his immediate choice is go back to save the ghosts, go back to his brother. I do think it was both reckless  and risky, knowing what Billie the Reaper had said about tossing them into the Empty - and she said all reapers felt that way, so her being dead shouldn't have minimized that risk - but I don't think it was suicidal or thoughtless. He wanted a save at any cost.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I didn't like the Dean passed out on the floor scenario.  It's a side of Dean where they go way over the top IMO, similar to the messy eating we get each week.

Dean's life is filled with violence, despair and loss yet the guy still finds joy in almost anything.... even a rainbow slinky.  I admire him so much for that trait and wish I could be the same. 

But they could've had him walk through the motel door that morning, looking haggard, hair tousled, shirt untucked, etc., and saying he decided to check out the reviews... or whatever.  

I don't know, I thought the point was that Dean isn't finding joy in anything right now, but he was trying his damnedest to feel something, anything to make him care. So, Dean went overboard and tied one on attempting to find some joy and have a little fun like he usually can do, but it didn't work and all he had to show for his efforts are a hangover. Same with the bacon in the morning, he loaded up on the bacon, which he loves, trying to feel that feeling he gets from bacon, but it wasn't working either. 

To me, these weren't gratuitous, Dean's a horndog and eats like a pig, but was showing how Dean was failing to find joy in the little things these days. I think these things were important for the what Billie says later about Dean changing to pay off.

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

I think if Sam died (like, for sure) Dean would be suicidal.  He'd be a reckless and impulsive hunter until something killed him.  John did a real number on him during those formative years.

Dean always finds joy in something.... next week he's all tripping on being a Texas Ranger.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I thought the point was that Dean isn't finding joy in anything right now, but he was trying his damnedest to feel something, anything to make him care. So, Dean went overboard and tied one on attempting to find some joy and have a little fun like he usually can do, but it didn't work and all he had to show for his efforts are a hangover. Same with the bacon in the morning, he loaded up on the bacon, which he loves, trying to feel that feeling he gets from bacon, but it wasn't working either. 

To me, these weren't gratuitous, Dean's a horndog and eats like a pig, but was showing how Dean was failing to find joy in the little things these days. I think these things were important for the what Billie says later about Dean changing to pay off.

They could have shown that in much kinder ways:  Dean wincing with a hangover, and having Sam ask something like, "did you at least have a good time?" Jensen could answer that with just a look.  Similarly, having him load his plate with bacon, take one bite and then push the plate away looking unhappy.  Jensen can sell his feelings with an expression.  There's no need to go for slapstick unless they *want* to make him look foolish, and that's what annoys me.  

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean always finds joy in something.... next week he's all tripping on being a Texas Ranger.

I think he's feeling better because Cass is back, but I don't think he found any joy in this episode until he got the call from Cass.

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

They could have shown that in much kinder ways:  Dean wincing with a hangover, and having Sam ask something like, "did you at least have a good time?" Jensen could answer that with just a look.  Similarly, having him load his plate with bacon, take one bite and then push the plate away looking unhappy.  Jensen can sell his feelings with an expression.  There's no need to go for slapstick unless they *want* to make him look foolish, and that's what annoys me.  

Well, I wouldn't consider any of that slapstick or making Dean look foolish, but to each his own.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think if Sam died (like, for sure) Dean would be suicidal.  He'd be a reckless and impulsive hunter until something killed him.  John did a real number on him during those formative years.

Dean always finds joy in something.... next week he's all tripping on being a Texas Ranger.

 

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he's feeling better because Cass is back, but I don't think he found any joy in this episode until he got the call from Cass.

Replying in the spoiler thread because references to the promo for next week Count as a spoiler ;)

[catrox14]

What's really weird to me is that Dean was fully clothed but  he had a bra around his neck, his tie on his forehead, was  carrying a flogger, but sleeping on his shoe with a bottle next to him,  but his keys were on the dresser by the door.

Sam wakes up surprised that Dean wasn't in his bed and surprised to find him on the floor.

My current theory is that Dean had gone back to the hotel with someone intending to hook up, leaving Sam at the strip club, and maybe he passed out before the festivities reached their climax so to speak, so the woman left her bra behind and just left Dean on the floor. Sam came back hammered, or so tired he doesn't turn on the light, and just changes his clothes and falls asleep and doesn't notice Dean passed out on the floor.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Rewatching the Billie/Dean scene again, and when Dean asks if she's keeping him dead and she says that depends on him, Dean infers that to mean it's his choice - and his immediate choice is go back to save the ghosts, go back to his brother. I do think it was both reckless  and risky, knowing what Billie the Reaper had said about tossing them into the Empty - and she said all reapers felt that way, so her being dead shouldn't have minimized that risk - but I don't think it was suicidal or thoughtless. He wanted a save at any cost.

Maybe Dean forgot about the Empty threat? Heh.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, why wasn't Sam with him? Did Dean sneak out? Or did Sam just say okay, the jig is up, after the conversation at the hotel lobby and let Dean go out on his own?

Didn't Dean have a bra. They may have gone out together at first, but Dean would never ever ever ever ever let Sam accompany him to have sex.  Nor would Sam want to.  

[AwesomO4000]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What's really weird to me is that Dean was fully clothed but  he had a bra around his neck, his tie on his forehead, was  carrying a flogger, but sleeping on his shoe with a bottle next to him,  but his keys were on the dresser by the door.

Dean got a lap dance?

Not that I know much about strip clubs, but aren't the men usually clothed when they get a lap dance while the women take off their clothes? And maybe she played with his tie while giving the lap dance? If so, that's my best guess. As for the flogger, maybe it was a naughty schoolgirl kinda thing?

(I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall, but I'm not sure if anything really stuck.)

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean got a lap dance?

Not that I know much about strip clubs, but aren't the men usually clothed when they get a lap dance while the women take off their clothes? And maybe she played with his tie while giving the lap dance? If so, that's my best guess. As for the flogger, maybe it was a naughty schoolgirl kinda thing?

(I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall, but I'm not sure if anything really stuck.)

Sure they get lap dances at the club. But my point is that  I don't find it likely that Dean was SO drunk that he would have kept the tie around his head, the bra around his neck, stumble back to the hotel room with a bottle of booze that he dropped next to him and Sam just sleeps through the whole thing. That's why I think it's more likely he brought someone back to the room with him, and then Sam came back later.

[AwesomO4000]

Ah, okay. I see now... unless Dean's good at being quiet while he's drunk? Or Sam just sleeps through it?... or maybe finds it comforting... cause he knows Dean's back "home?"

I had a roommate in college who grew up in a house next to the railroad tracks. When I'd go to visit her home for a few nights stay, it was amazing how quickly I slept right through the trains going by... Not only that, I liked to wake up to look at the freight trains sometimes (I find them interesting), but the Amtrack trains were boring. Somehow even in my sleep, I could tell the difference and wake up to see the freight trains, but sleep through the Amtrack ones. Similarly, I sleep through my hubby's alarm music (he wakes up really early) but wake up for mine. So maybe asleep Sam recognizes stumbling home Dean noises in his sleep and just sleeps through them or only wakes up briefly "oh, good Dean's back." then rolls over and goes back to sleep and doesn't remember it in the morning.

I could buy that actually.

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, okay. I see now... unless Dean's good at being quiet while he's drunk? Or Sam just sleeps through it?... or maybe finds it comforting... cause he knows Dean's back "home?"

I had a roommate in college who grew up in a house next to the railroad tracks. When I'd go to visit her home for a few nights stay, it was amazing how quickly I slept right through the trains going by... Not only that, I liked to wake up to look at the freight trains sometimes (I find them interesting), but the Amtrack trains were boring. Somehow even in my sleep, I could tell the difference and wake up to see the freight trains, but sleep through the Amtrack ones. Similarly, I sleep through my hubby's alarm music (he wakes up really early) but wake up for mine. So maybe asleep Sam recognizes stumbling home Dean noises in his sleep and just sleeps through them or only wakes up briefly "oh, good Dean's back." then rolls over and goes back to sleep and doesn't remember it in the morning.

I could buy that actually.

Yeah, I can totally imagine Sam sleeping through Dean coming back in the room. I'm a fairly heavy sleeper and have been known to sleep through my sister climbing in bed with me during a thunder storm and being quite surprised to find someone else in my bed in the morning and that there was a thunder storm the night before.

My theory is, they both went to bed, Dean couldn't sleep, but didn't want to disturb Sam, so he went out for a walk and ended up at the strip club. Trying his damnedest to feel like his old self, he goes in.  But, it wasn't working, so he starts drinking and keeps drinking thinking eventually he'll feel it. Probably puts his own tie on his head like that at one point and ends up with the bra simply because it's a strip club where ladies take their clothes off... . Anyway, I imagine someone throws him into a cab and he manages to make his way back to his room and passes out.

That's how it works in my head, anyway.

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I can totally imagine Sam sleeping through Dean coming back in the room. I'm a fairly heavy sleeper and have been known to sleep through my sister climbing in bed with me during a thunder storm and being quite surprised to find someone else in my bed in the morning and that there was a thunder storm the night before.

My theory is, they both went to bed, Dean couldn't sleep, but didn't want to disturb Sam, so he went out for a walk and ended up at the strip club. Trying his damnedest to feel like his old self, he goes in.  But, it wasn't working, so he starts drinking and keeps drinking thinking eventually he'll feel it. Probably puts his own tie on his head like that at one point and ends up with the bra simply because it's a strip club where ladies take their clothes off... . Anyway, I imagine someone throws him into a cab and he manages to make his way back to his room and passes out.

That's how it works in my head, anyway.

They're hunters, though.  Shouldn't they be light sleepers?  Wouldn't heavy sleep be a serious serious serious liability in their line of work?

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They're hunters, though.  Shouldn't they be light sleepers?  Wouldn't heavy sleep be a serious serious serious liability in their line of work?

Sure, but I can see that Sam didn't feel there was eminent danger. Dean was supposed to be in bed next to him, it was a random hunt and as far as they know, no one is targeting them right now...maybe he let down his guard? Or, maybe he's just really exhausted right now due to being daddy to Jack and worrying about Dean? I'm not saying this is an every night occurrence, but that I don't see it unbelievable in the way they presented it.

Edited November 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

The only part of the episode that I can't understand is Sam leaving Dean on the floor of the hotel room.

 

 Sam spent the whole day  giving Dean the basic things he thought would make him happy, which was alcohol and strippers and junk food. Yet he acts exasperated to find  Dean on the floor and then leaves him there alone, next to a bottle of booze and sleeping on his shoe. It reminded me of something Soulless Sam would have done. Sam could have taken a minute to at least drag him over and onto the bed. So why didn't he?

 

That's why I'm keeping in my back pocket that he was Jack. Jack  told the Shifterpist (tm someone else here) that most of the time he feels nothing and that he wondered if that made him a monster. So maybe he was trying to behave like he thinks Sam would but whiffed on Dean passed out on the floor because he didn't  understand it's not a good thing to leave your passed out brother, on a floor of a strange hotel room, when you can make a different choice.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam spent the whole day  giving Dean the basic things he thought would make him happy, which was alcohol and strippers and junk food. Yet he acts exasperated to find  Dean on the floor and then leaves him there alone, next to a bottle of booze and sleeping on his shoe.

Like I said, it would've been nice for Sam to at least give him a pillow, but I don't have a problem with Sam not disturbing Dean and letting him sleep it off while he went and talked to the kid. I thought that was nice of Sam, myself. 

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only part of the episode that I can't understand is Sam leaving Dean on the floor of the hotel room.

 

 Sam spent the whole day  giving Dean the basic things he thought would make him happy, which was alcohol and strippers and junk food. Yet he acts exasperated to find  Dean on the floor and then leaves him there alone, next to a bottle of booze and sleeping on his shoe. It reminded me of something Soulless Sam would have done. Sam could have taken a minute to at least drag him over and onto the bed. So why didn't he?

 

That's why I'm keeping in my back pocket that he was Jack. Jack  told the Shifterpist (tm someone else here) that most of the time he feels nothing and that he wondered if that made him a monster. So maybe he was trying to behave like he thinks Sam would but whiffed on Dean passed out on the floor because he didn't  understand it's not a good thing to leave your passed out brother, on a floor of a strange hotel room, when you can make a different choice.

I was thisclose to believing it was Sam, right up until the end scene when they had the talk. Plus, if it was Jack, it would IMO be one of the worst things they've ever done with Sam's character, because either a) Jack would've had to possess him against his will/without his knowledge: bad. Or, b) Sam would have to have let Jack possess him and then deceive Dean about it, sending him on a hunt with a child as backup. (We're still supposed to believe Jack is a child, right?) I think Dabb is the worst, but I don't think he would do that to Sam.

But yeah, leaving Dean passed out on the floor was questionable especially given that he spent the whole episode up to that point trying to convince Dean to do exactly what it appears he did. That exasperated 'great' and then just leaving him there was pretty cold, but probably more in character for Sam than his prior behavior.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Like I said, it would've been nice for Sam to at least give him a pillow, but I don't have a problem with Sam not disturbing Dean and letting him sleep it off while he went and talked to the kid. I thought that was nice of Sam, myself. 

That's a pretty big 'but' though. Enough of one for me that it negates any of the 'nice' of letting him sleep it off. Point being, he didn't do anything to make him comfortable. If we really wanted to push it, if Dean were drunk enough to pass out in the middle of the floor like that, it could've been dangerous to leave him flat on his back like that.

Edited November 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They're hunters, though.  Shouldn't they be light sleepers?  Wouldn't heavy sleep be a serious serious serious liability in their line of work?

I can buy if they are together that one is sleeping more heavily once they are in their beds, but not when the other leaves. And why would Dean even sneak out? He'd tell Sam he was leaving or leave a note saying he was going

 

 

Now if Dean was suicidal and had left his keys for Sam, had gone to the strip club alone as a last hurrah, then changed ged his mind and snuck back in, I would buy that.

 But that wasnt intimated in the episode, so WTF, Sam.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That exasperated 'great' and then just leaving him there was pretty cold, but probably more in character for Sam than his prior behavior.

I'm not sure how I understand why that's cold? Sure, he could've woken Dean up and all, but I find it more courteous to not disturb someone when they're sleeping. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And why would Dean even sneak out? He'd tell Sam he was leaving or leave a note saying he was going

I didn't think he snuck out, but couldn't sleep and didn't want to disturb Sam.

 

I look at it this way: I'm not much of a partier these days so when I go on trips with friends or co-workers I usually end up going back to the room earlier than they do. I'm also a very early riser in comparison to most my friends. So, when I wake up at 3 in the morning and can't get back to sleep, I tend to grab some clothes and go for a walk. I don't know where I'm going, just that I can't sleep and my tossing and turning or pacing around the hotel room would wake everyone else up and I don't want to. I don't really see that Dean going out in the night is sneaking out or that Sam not disturbing Dean sleeping on the floor are either bad things. They make total sense to me because that's how I would handle both situations.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Like I said, it would've been nice for Sam to at least give him a pillow, but I don't have a problem with Sam not disturbing Dean and letting him sleep it off while he went and talked to the kid. I thought that was nice of Sam, myself. 

Except it's really dangerous to leave a drunk, passed out person on the floor alone. And it's not something shown over the years as being Deans MO either. Dean has gotten black out drunk once on screen and that was in brothers keeper when he was trying to fight the effects of the Mark.

There  was no reason  for Sam to not wait for Dean to wake up to go and interview the kid. It didnt HAVE to happen right then and there. He could have waited an hour or so to see if Dean woke up

I could even buy that Sam had seen Dean passed out from being drunk before and left him there out of aggravation, but Sam helped Dean get drunk that day so it's kind of shitty for Sam to leave him there after helping him get to that point.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure how I understand why that's cold? Sure, he could've woken Dean up and all, but I find it more courteous to not disturb someone when they're sleeping. 

I guess he was probably just supposed to sit there and wait for him to wake up.

 

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can buy if they are together that one is sleeping more heavily once they are in their beds, but not when the other leaves. And why would Dean even sneak out? He'd tell Sam he was leaving or leave a note saying he was going.

We don't know that he didn't leave a note.  Sam would hardly look for one after he saw Dean on the floor.  No, there wasn't one on the bed, but it could have been on the table.  Or even under Dean for all we know.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I guess he was probably just supposed to sit there and wait for him to wake up.

 

I think there are at least a few options between sitting there waiting for him to wake up, and stepping over him to get out the door.

[Wayward Son]

A question for the Dean fans who pay a lot more attention than me... Have we seen him sleep in the past? I vaguely remember a few motel room scenes, but can’t remember if we see him sleep or just him being woken. And if we have seen him sleep is he generally a snorer or is that just from being so inebriated? Lol 

[Katy M]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there are at least a few options between sitting there waiting for him to wake up, and stepping over him to get out the door.

walking around him to get out the door?  Waking him up?  Which would have been really rude.  I'm not seeing a bunch of other options. He either stays and waits, wakes him up, or leaves.  That's it.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure how I understand why that's cold? Sure, he could've woken Dean up and all, but I find it more courteous to not disturb someone when they're sleeping. 

 

Dean wasn't just sleeping - he was passed out on the floor, surrounded by the detritus of a night of... debauchery? He was flat on his back - what if he threw up and choked on it? Maybe lifting him up bridal-style and carrying him to bed would've been a little much, but how about a pillow? A shake of the shoulder to see how deep he was? Something more than an eye-roll and exasperated great would've been in order for the Sam we just saw doing anything he could to cheer up his brother. And then after that look, what does he do? He brings back some more booze to make it up to him. It's odd writing, to say the least.

[Katy M]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

A question for the Dean fans who pay a lot more attention than me... Have we seen him sleep in the past? I vaguely remember a few motel room scenes, but can’t remember if we see him sleep or just him being woken. And if we have seen him sleep is he generally a snorer or is that just from being so inebriated? Lol 

He was sleeping in Phantom traveler. He woke up when Sam came in the room.  No snoring

He was sleeping in Dead Man's Blood until John woke them up.  No snoring.

He's sleeping in Bedtime Stories when Sam sneaks out.  No snoring

He's lseeping in Lazarus Rising when Sam sneaks out before Cas explodes the room. No snoring.

He's sleeping in In the Beginning when sam sneaks out, no snoring, but he is having a nightmare.

He's sleeping at the beginning of Sex and Violence before pretending to be asleep. No snoring.

I think we see him sleeping in The End.  No snoring.

He's asleep in Dark Side of the Moon when Roy and Walt come to kill them. No snoring.

He's sleeping in All Dogs Go to Heaven when Sam wakes him up to interview people. I don't think he was snoring.

He was sleeping, and having a nightmare, in Shut UP Dr Phil. No snoring.

He was sleeping off the turducken in How to Win Friends.  I don't think he was snoring, but not sure.

He was sleeping in As Time Goes By, no snoring.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Something more than an eye-roll and exasperated great would've been in order for the Sam we just saw doing anything he could to cheer up his brother.

For all the "Sam is trying to be extra-nice and supportive" bits, I felt it had no real throughline from episodes 1-4 to this. Before Dean caved to his whim, he was like that to Jack. Since Jack was missing in this ep, it being transferred to Dean just weirded me out as it did Dean. Then that exasperated eye-roll was actually back to normal but also a bit sad. Like, he couldn`t keep up the ultra-nice act when Dean wasn`t looking aka passed out. Personally, I would have found the reverse actually more meaningful writing.

And the snoring on the floor like that really was over the top buffonish slapstick. I could have done without it. 

But it`s a moment I can ignore because the Billie scene was really good.    

[Pondlass1]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then that exasperated eye-roll was actually back to normal

That's our Sam.  'Nice' Sam was so odd people immediately assumed he was possessed. LOL

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

We don't know that he didn't leave a note.  Sam would hardly look for one after he saw Dean on the floor.  No, there wasn't one on the bed, but it could have been on the table.  Or even under Dean for all we know.

The only other occasions that I can recall Dean leaving a note was in PoNR for Bobby and in Brother's Keeper for Sam and in both cases he was anticipating the end of his existence.

Sorry, but no matter how you slice for me, Sam leaving Dean on the floor is an awful thing to do. TMI time, I got really drunk after my mom died. I fell asleep on the bathroom floor after puking and my friends made sure I got into bed. They didn't leave me there. (and that is the last time I will ever get drunk LOL it was horrible)

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

walking around him to get out the door?  Waking him up?  Which would have been really rude.  I'm not seeing a bunch of other options. He either stays and waits, wakes him up, or leaves.  That's it.

Dean would not just choose to sleep on the floor if he had the option of the bed. He was on the floor because he was passed out from too much alcohol. And yes Sam could have stayed because it's not like the kid was a flight risk. He could have waited a whole day to interview the kid.

That's why I think my theory that Dean took his partner(s?) back to the room, and then Sam came back later and didn't notice Dean on the floor, makes the most sense. I can't fathom Sam sleeping through Dean either crawling past him or falling on the floor. All Dean had to do was go another two steps to the bed, so he had to have been so drunk he couldn't get there, OR he was making out with someone on the floor, passed out during the event and she(they)left. Why they would leave behind a bra is a mystery but hey, some women leave underwear as mementos LOL.

I really hope someone asks J2 about this at the Hawaii con.

Edited November 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

Jensen is a brilliant actor.  I just wish he didn't go along with this doofus Dean stuff - although I don't know how much input the actor has. I also guess Jensen thought it pretty funny.  

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He was sleeping in Phantom traveler. He woke up when Sam came in the room.  No snoring

He was sleeping in Dead Man's Blood until John woke them up.  No snoring.

He's sleeping in Bedtime Stories when Sam sneaks out.  No snoring

He's lseeping in Lazarus Rising when Sam sneaks out before Cas explodes the room. No snoring.

He's sleeping in In the Beginning when sam sneaks out, no snoring, but he is having a nightmare.

He's sleeping at the beginning of Sex and Violence before pretending to be asleep. No snoring.

I think we see him sleeping in The End.  No snoring.

He's asleep in Dark Side of the Moon when Roy and Walt come to kill them. No snoring.

He's sleeping in All Dogs Go to Heaven when Sam wakes him up to interview people. I don't think he was snoring.

He was sleeping, and having a nightmare, in Shut UP Dr Phil. No snoring.

He was sleeping off the turducken in How to Win Friends.  I don't think he was snoring, but not sure.

He was sleeping in As Time Goes By, no snoring.

Dean doesn't snore. That's never been a trait for him.

He woke up in the car in s2, I think, and Sam woke him up by honking the car horn.

He awoke face down on the floor of his motel room in Brother's Keeper surrounded by beer and whiskey bottles. That's the only time I can recall him ever doing that and that was because he was at his wit's end with the Mark taking him over again.

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jensen is a brilliant actor.  I just wish he didn't go along with this doofus Dean stuff - although I don't know how much input the actor has. I also guess Jensen thought it pretty funny.  

I wonder if there is a deleted scene that explains all of this.

[Res]

17 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jensen is a brilliant actor.  I just wish he didn't go along with this doofus Dean stuff - although I don't know how much input the actor has. I also guess Jensen thought it pretty funny.  

Jensen has stated before that he loves comedy because he likes making people laugh. I do believe he thinks it's funny and not over the top. Unfortunately, I do not think it is as it is too excessive.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was thisclose to believing it was Sam, right up until the end scene when they had the talk. Plus, if it was Jack, it would IMO be one of the worst things they've ever done with Sam's character, because either a) Jack would've had to possess him against his will/without his knowledge: bad. Or, b) Sam would have to have let Jack possess him and then deceive Dean about it, sending him on a hunt with a child as backup. (We're still supposed to believe Jack is a child, right?) I think Dabb is the worst, but I don't think he would do that to Sam

Not if it's a result of Jack's powers doing something he didn't intend to do. Like he was trying to help Sam in some way and it got all messed up.

Maybe it's not even possession but influence over people that he doesn't know he has.

Jack was upset when Dean and Sam were fighting about him and he seemed to almost wish for Castiel to come back.  Like I think maybe Jack didn't intend to wake up Castiel from the Empty but that he somehow just called out to him in some kind of desperation, which woke him up. Maybe on some child like level  Jack is trying to put his "family" back together.  Maybe Sam touching Jack has influenced Sam in some way like when Kelly held Cas' hand and it powered him up to kill Dagon. That he's picked up on what Jack thinks Dean would want to make him like Sam again, so it influenced Sam's behavior without possessing Sam per se.

Dean hasn't touched Jack to this point that I can recall. He hasn't hugged him, or even shaken hands with him. He took the knife out of Jack's hand but didn't touch Jack to do it. He gave him a bottle of beer and said good job but didn't touch him.  Sam has touched Jack at least once, and that was when he helped him up out of his corner of despair in 13.02.

Just spitballin here to explain Sam's contradictory behavior in 13.05

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The only other occasions that I can recall Dean leaving a note was in PoNR for Bobby and in Brother's Keeper for Sam and in both cases he was anticipating the end of his existence.

You're the one who said he wouldn't sneak out.  He would tell Sam where he was going or leave a note.  I have no opinion on a note one way or the other. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

You're the one who said he wouldn't sneak out.  He would tell Sam where he was going or leave a note.  I have no opinion on a note one way or the other. 

I wasn't clear, sorry. What I was trying to say is that  I don't think he sneaked out around a soundly sleeping Sam to go to a strip club in the first place so he wouldn't have needed to leave a note. 

IF Dean had left his keys for Sam on purpose, then if it was a suicidal Dean situation maybe in THAT case he would have left a note. 

I can see how what I wrote initially was confusing. Sorry about that. 

[FlickChick]

Maybe Yockley was given a directive that a "drunken Dean" scene had to be included in the episode because we fans and viewers couldn't figure out that Dean was depressed and didn't give a damn about anything without it. But put me in the camp that thinks these scenes are over the top and ridiculous instead of funny. In fact I think I rolled my eyes as well as Sam, but for a different reason. 

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Maybe Yockley was given a directive that a "drunken Dean" scene had to be included in the episode because we fans and viewers couldn't figure out that Dean was depressed and didn't give a damn about anything without it. But put me in the camp that thinks these scenes are over the top and ridiculous instead of funny. In fact I think I rolled my eyes as well as Sam, but for a different reason. 

Quite frankly, I don't think they were supposed to be funny, nor did I view them as such. Personally, I felt for Dean when watching those scenes because I could feel how much he was trying to feel and cope with what he was going through.

[MysteryGuest]

Personally, I think the drunken Dean scene was supposed to be funny.  He's got the bra wrapped around him and that whip in his hand and he's snoring away on the floor.  I don't disagree with everyone who stated that it's not a great idea to leave someone who's inebriated lie on their back like that, but I don't believe it was done to show a lack of care on Sam's part.  I think they just went for the laugh and didn't think twice about the reality of the situation.  

If they were genuinely trying to show Dean's state of mind by having him pass out drunk on the floor, it didn't work.  If that's what they were going for, there are about a thousand better ways they could show that.  That's why I think that scene, and the bacon scene, were written for the humor.  I personally am a bit sick of those particular types of scenes, but obviously someone thinks they're funny.

[takalotti]

For what it’s worth...

When Sam woke up, Dean's bed looked untouched. So I don’t think they both went to bed, Sam fell asleep, Dean felt restless and headed out. Because I can’t imagine he perfectly remade his bed before taking off. Could they both have been getting ready for bed, Sam fell asleep while Dean was brushing his teeth, and then Dean felt restless and headed out and that was the reason the bed was untouched? Yes.

When found on the floor, Dean was wearing his suit. If he went to bed and then decided to go out, I’d think he'd put on jeans, T-shirt, top shirt, leather jacket, and not his suit. Could Sam have fallen asleep before Dean got out of his suit and then Dean decided to go out? Yes.

But I'm more inclined to take the clues of the made bed and suit to mean that after they checked in, Dean said "You know what, Sammy? I think I’ll take your suggestion for some cheering up. I WILL go to that strip club. But not with you. We both know you hate it. Don’t wait up!" So Sam didn’t wait up, went to sleep, (I’m not going to theorize why he didn’t he hear Dean come back), and when he woke up to see the unmade bed thought Dean didn’t come back at all, only to find him on the floor.

Separate from all that, I didn’t take Sam's reaction to passed out Dean to be contradictory. I didn’t see it as "I suggested a strip club and drinking, then I didn’t realize he didn’t stay in bed, then I come to find out he DID go to a strip club and went drinking. Ugh! I can’t believe he’d go and do just what I suggested!" I'm more likely to read his exasperated reaction to mean "Man, I offered to go with you, you insisted on going on your own and now look at you. If you would’ve let me go with you, I’d have made sure you didn’t overdo it. You'd be in bed sleeping off a buzz instead of on the floor gearing up for a massive hangover."

I agree he should have rolled Dean, but I don’t think it’s so bad that he left Dean on the floor rather than rousing him while moving him to a bed.

Edited November 14, 2017 by takalotti