S13.E03: Patience

[Geordiegirl1967]

On 27/10/2017 at 5:10 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I also agree with Dean, in the sense that Jack *is* a freak, and one whose existence cost him his mother and bff *days* ago.

That makes no sense. Its like blaming a child whose mother dies in childbirth for their mothers death. Jack didn't ask to be conceived and he didn't deliberately kill his mother. He had literally nothing to do with Cas's death. So Dean blaming Jack for these things is illogical and grossly unfair.

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

That makes no sense. Its like blaming a child whose mother dies in childbirth for their mothers death. Jack didn't ask to be conceived and he didn't deliberately kill his mother. He had literally nothing to do with Cas's death. So Dean blaming Jack for these things is illogical and grossly unfair.

I actually agree with you that the death of Cas is not Jack’s fault as Jack made his own choice. However, I think it is understandable that Dean doesn’t see it that way. Jack wasn’t simply a passive presence throughout these events. In Dean’s mind he manipulated Cas by sending him visions of paradise and instilling a need for Jack to be born so this vision could come to pass. So, I think he knows Lucifer did the actual killing, but he blames Jack’s manipulation for Cas being there that day in the first place. 

 

As I said, I don’t see it that way! I suspect we may even find out those visions actually came from Lucifer! I’m just trying to explain where I think Dean is coming from.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

That makes no sense. Its like blaming a child whose mother dies in childbirth for their mothers death. Jack didn't ask to be conceived and he didn't deliberately kill his mother. He had literally nothing to do with Cas's death. So Dean blaming Jack for these things is illogical and grossly unfair.

I don't think it is illogical nor unfair.

Jack is not equivalent to a normal human infant or even a toddler. He's not even equivalent to a child that is born with psychic abilities. He's not at all the same. He is a different species,  who has more power than Lucifer according to the Lore per Sam

Jack had the power IN UTERO to power up Castiel to kill a Prince of Hell who Cas could not have killed by himself. Jack had the power to compel Kelly to live and give birth to him when she tried to kill herself.

Dean saw Castiel become something he didn't recognize when he looked at Castiel in 12.19. No, I don't think Dean was just in denial about Cas behavior. He knows that Cas has made bad choices on his own in the past and has betrayed him, but he was pinging that something was off with Cas when Cas called him before going back to Heaven and when he returned he knew he wasn't right. 

And there is no way to know if it was just Lucifer's influence that ensured Jack's birth or because Jack being a different species can control his own gestation and own birth, which it seems he could.

MO, Dean would be derelict in his duty as a hunter to completely disregard that and I think him being harsh towards Jack is Dean's grief over Cas and Mary, which does not negate his hunter instincts  JMHO

[gonzosgirrl]

46 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

That makes no sense. Its like blaming a child whose mother dies in childbirth for their mothers death. Jack didn't ask to be conceived and he didn't deliberately kill his mother. He had literally nothing to do with Cas's death. So Dean blaming Jack for these things is illogical and grossly unfair.

I didn't say it was logical or fair, but it's real. It's an honest portrayal of the sometimes-irrationality of grief. And he is still days out from those deaths, so IMO his reaction is totally human and realistic. Then add in the fact that Jack is a freak of nature - no matter how you spin it, he's the offspring of Lucifer, who possessed a man and had sex with an unwitting human. He can fling people about with his mind and call up a gate to the deepest part of Hell. Kinda defines freak for me. And for Dean, he represents the reason his best friend and mother are dead. Unwitting as it may be, Jack's existence is the reason they are dead. So it might not be fair, but it sure as heck does make sense.

Edited November 2, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[JanetWaldo]

An observation I haven't seen noted in the comments, but I thought it was interesting to me: 

Sam's room in the bunker=21

The kitchen= 23.

Jack's room= 22.  

So, if the numbering is like streets where odd and even are opposite sides then Sam's room is right next to the kitchen.  (hee!) and Jack's is across the hall.

Also: Dean's room=11.

Mary's room=15.

So Mary was just a couple doors down from Dean.   And probably in a different wing than Sam's.  

It makes sense to me that Jack was given a room closer to Sam, given Dean's animosity.  It's interesting though that Mary was either given or choose a room closer to Dean.  

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, JanetWaldo said:

An observation I haven't seen noted in the comments, but I thought it was interesting to me: 

Sam's room in the bunker=21

The kitchen= 23.

Jack's room= 22.  

So, if the numbering is like streets where odd and even are opposite sides then Sam's room is right next to the kitchen.  (hee!) and Jack's is across the hall.

Also: Dean's room=11.

Mary's room=15.

So Mary was just a couple doors down from Dean.   And probably in a different wing than Sam's.  

It makes sense to me that Jack was given a room closer to Sam, given Dean's animosity.  It's interesting though that Mary was either given or choose a room closer to Dean.  

I think Mary’s room is actually a general guest room they give to people. Castiel has also stayed in it a few times IIRC.

 

Although I agree they probably gave Jack a room close to Sam so Sam could keep an eye on him and to keep him away from Dean due to Dean’s negative feelings towards him. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Wayward Son

[JanetWaldo]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think Mary’s room is actually a general guest room they give to people. Castiel has also stayed in it a few times IIRC.

 

Although I agree they probably gave Jack a room close to Sam so Sam could keep an eye on him and to keep him away from Dean due to Dean’s negative feelings towards him. 

I thought Cas stayed in Sam's room?  But I admit to not paying close enough attention to that.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, JanetWaldo said:

I thought Cas stayed in Sam's room?  But I admit to not paying close enough attention to that.  

I think he has stayed in Sam’s room while the brothers have been out on a hunt (Sam’s room has Netflix haha), but he has stayed in room 15 when all three of them are there. Others can correct me if I’m remembering wrong though :)

Edited November 3, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

You guys are way more observant than I am.  I never noticed the numbers on the rooms.  I've always sort of wondered how many actual bedrooms there are.  I know Kevin stayed in one.  Did Cas ever stay at the Bunker when Kevin was there?  I'm guessing they have as many rooms as are needed, based on the storyline.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I think he has stayed in Sam’s room while the brothers have been out on a hunt (Sam’s room has Netflix haha), but he has stayed in room 15 when all three of them are there. Others can correct me if I’m remembering wrong though :)

Cas stays in Room 15 when he's there. He used Sam's room to watch Netflix but he didn't stay there all the time. 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, takalotti said:

Run home Jack!

I had that same thought as I was typing.  But, no.  This isn't Hook.  I want him to run away.  Not run home.

[takalotti]

So Dean blames Jack for Cas getting killed. And now Jack has at least started the process of Cas coming back. When Dean finds out, is that going to change his stance on whether or not Jack has to die?

 

Starting back at the beginning...

 

I don’t have any problem with gore or monster kills, but that opening scene of the wraith killing Missouri's friend was SUPER uncomfortable. 

 

To a much lesser degree, I was also uncomfortable with Sam not immediately closing Jack's door and giving him privacy with Kelly's video. And how long was he going to stand there if he hadn’t received a call? I don’t even know if there was a show reason for Sam overhearing some of it. Was it just supposed to be another instance of "Sam gets to see Jack when he’s vulnerable or sincere, but Dean doesn’t, so that’s why they see Jack so differently"?

 

Pretty sure Kelly read the Harry Potter series.

"Who you’re supposed to be isn’t fate, it isn’t me, it isn’t your father. You are who you choose to be"

=

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"

 

Okay, why did Missouri need to call the boys for help when she did? The way it played on screen was basically "Dede gets killed, M calls Sam, as soon as M hears about the hole and the brains she guesses Wraith at the same time as Dean, M reads the objects and gets all the info about the wraith." So what did she need Jody or Dean for up to that point?

 

Was it just that the police weren’t giving her answers, so Jody was needed to even get the hole and brains facts? And she couldn’t get into the crime scene to read the objects without Jody? If so, I wish that had been a little clearer.

 

I get where Sam is coming from and what he’s trying to do, but IMO he’s going about "training" Jack all wrong. Step 1 shouldn’t be trying to see if Jack can make something happen on purpose. Step 1 should be redirecting his reflexes when scared/angry, so that he does something more like put up a shield to protect himself rather than throwing people into walls. Step 2 can be seeing if he can make something neutral, like moving a pencil, happen on purpose. Step 3 can being trying to something good on purpose (healing a wound). And after lots of discussions on morals and finding out if someone is really trying to hurt him, Step 4 can being doing something "bad" on purpose (knocking them out, or binding them, or even destroying them).

 

So there are two times this episode where Jack starts getting pissy, Sam says "Okay," and then Jack chills out and asks "Really?" Is there a significance to this? Is this supposed to be like "Okay, the first couple episodes were Jack's infancy and toddlerhood sort of. This is his adolescence"? Which could make the rest of the sentence "Really? I get my way?"

Or is it more about Jack knowing how Dean feels about him, so he's all surprised when Sam is more accepting of him? Like, is the rest of the sentence actually "Really? You’re not mad at me like Dean is even though I just yelled at you?"?

 

I watched the episode twice and I still don’t know when Missouri knew she was going to be killed. Nothing adds up.  And "I run, you catch me, I die. I stay, I die. But this way my people, they’re going to murder your ass" makes zero sense to me. Why would one scenario of her dying make Dean and Jody any more likely to kill the wraith than a different scenario of her dying? I’m not even sure I’m interested in trying to figure it out.

 

What was with Sam freaking out when Jack wasn’t on the screen anymore? It just seemed like a weird overreaction, especially for someone who doesn’t think Jack is evil. It’s not like furniture was overturned, hinting at a kidnapping. He could have gone to the bathroom, Sam. Sheesh.

 

I mentioned this in the quotes thread, but I had to laugh at these two bits of dialogue...

 

James: Patience, I said now!

&

Jody: Patience, wait.

 

Dean's response to Patience waffling about what to do with her psychic abilities was interesting. Just last season, Dean and Sam were talking about their legacy being all the people they saved. Now he’s all "There's no joy in it. There's nothing but pain, horror and death." Not saying this is an inconsistency, just that it speaks to his current depression. Also, why are they making it sound like her options are "suppress psychic abilities" or "be a hunter with psychic abilities"? She could just be a non-hunter with psychic abilities.

 

When it comes to B vs. J topics, I’m pretty neutral, so I hope this doesn’t trigger anything. In the shouting match at the end of the episode, I’m pretty sympathetic to both boys. I really don’t think Sam was waiting to pounce on Dean for what Jack told him. I didn’t read his mention of Missouri's death as getting that topic out of the way so he could lay into Dean. I can’t say he was definitely giving Dean the benefit of the doubt before his arrival since Dean HAS told Sam he plans on killing Jack, but I just didn’t think Sam looked like he was itching to get into an argument. I do think he planned on talking about "You told Jack you were going to kill him" but more in zen mode.

 

When Dean asks if Jack turned yet, that’s when Sam's demeanor seemed to change to being combative and accusatory. Perhaps a little of "Oh, you’re going to assume the worst and get all pissy at me? Okay, I’ll do the same." Once Dean says it wasn’t like that, Sam seems to back down a bit and sincerely ask "Then how was it?" 

 

Something about those nuances just make me believe Sam was doing his best to give Dean the benefit of the doubt before he arrived, got snippy, but then went back to giving Dean the benefit of the doubt and wanting to hear him out. But Dean didn’t explain (not saying he needs to explain himself, but it sure would clear the air). Instead he deflected and turned the conversation a different way. And that was okay with me. He’s hurting. And the silver lining of the argument is that Dean finally said WHY he was hurting and hating Jack so much.

[legendinmyownmind]

Dean sure has changed his tune about grabbing a normal life if/when you can. Too bad he didn’t feel that way back in S8.  Sam had to learn a “very special lesson” then about not giving up on family.  I guess Dean now has to learn a “very special lesson” now about sometimes shit happens and it’s perfectly normal for people to get overwhelmed now and then.  I hope at the end of the season once they get Mary back, Dean will acknowledge that he finally knows how Sam must have felt back then.  But probably not. 

At least Jody thought to call Sam to tell him about Missouri’s death.   She was his friend too. 

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, legendinmyownmind said:

Dean sure has changed his tune about grabbing a normal life if/when you can. Too bad he didn’t feel that way back in S8.  Sam had to learn a “very special lesson” then about not giving up on family.  I guess Dean now has to learn a “very special lesson” now about sometimes shit happens and it’s perfectly normal for people to get overwhelmed now and then.  I hope at the end of the season once they get Mary back, Dean will acknowledge that he finally knows how Sam must have felt back then.  But probably not. 

At least Jody thought to call Sam to tell him about Missouri’s death.   She was his friend too. 

I think Dean has always wanted every non-Winchester to have a normal life.  He tried to talk Jo out of hunting in No Exit.  He told Ben that he was never going to pick up a gun and that he was not someone that Ben should try to be like. He tried to get Krissy to go live with her aunt. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean has always wanted every non-Winchester to have a normal life.  He tried to talk Jo out of hunting in No Exit.  He told Ben that he was never going to pick up a gun and that he was not someone that Ben should try to be like. He tried to get Krissy to go live with her aunt. 

Yup.

And I imagine if Patience was the only one who knew about and could possibly rescue a young person that was kidnapped by, oh, say, the King of Hell, he'd probably encourage her to try helping them before she got on that bus to Normalsville, too.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think Dean has always wanted every non-Winchester to have a normal life.  He tried to talk Jo out of hunting in No Exit.  He told Ben that he was never going to pick up a gun and that he was not someone that Ben should try to be like. He tried to get Krissy to go live with her aunt. 

Yes, he was very consistent in that regard. Dean has never had a recruiter mentality about hunting. He only acknowledged what made it valuable to himself and I guess what might make it valuable to people already in the lifestyle. Kinda like a cop or military man being proud of their job and those who do the job but still making the downsides clear to people not in it. 

Jody gave off a recruiter vibe in that last scene. I get that it was to set up the spin-off but I found the writing pretty clumsy there. And I will deeply annoyed if - when - we will get the requisite "noone told me how hard this was gonne be and how much loss there would be" angst from Patience. Someone did upfront and Jody was all like "pish posh, make an empowered choice to join our spin-off".     

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Jody gave off a recruiter vibe in that last scene.

I didn't get that at all.  I got more of a "be yourself" vibe.

 

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I will deeply annoyed if - when - we will get the requisite "noone told me how hard this was gonne be and how much loss there would be" angst from Patience. Someone did upfront and Jody was all like "pish posh, make an empowered choice to join our spin-off".   

But, yes, she was duly warned.

[Wayward Son]

I was rewatching this and the following line from Missouri got me thinking "I run, you catch me, I die. I stay, I die. But this way my people, they’re going to murder your ass"

 

Could Missouri have seen more versions of her death than the two she mentioned? Could she have seen a version where Dean and Jody stayed and the three of them got killed before the wraith left to get Patience? And another version of the events which actually  occurred? Could that be the reason she was so insistent Dean left and saved her family? That she decided it was better for her to die alone so that everyone else might live. 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I was rewatching this and the following line from Missouri got me thinking "I run, you catch me, I die. I stay, I die. But this way my people, they’re going to murder your ass"

 

Could Missouri have seen more versions of her death than the two she mentioned? Could she have seen a version where Dean and Jody stayed and the three of them got killed before the wraith left to get Patience? And another version of the events which actually  occurred? Could that be the reason she was so insistent Dean left and saved her family? That she decided it was better for her to die alone so that everyone else might live. 

I assume that's what they were going for, but it seems to me there were more than just the two options available. 

[rue721]

On 10/27/2017 at 1:43 PM, SueB said:

But he cut Sam short on talking about 'needing Jack'.  I thought it was because he didn't want to have false hope regarding Mary.  NOW, I think it MAY be because he saw the interdimensional can opener issue right from the get go.

I agree, I think that Dean can't bear the burden of hope right now. It's too painful to hope that Jack will turn out to be a good bean, and to hope that Mary can be rescued. He needs to believe that Jack is doomed and that Mary is dead, in order to just keep on surviving. He has to harden his heart to get by. I think that's also why it's painful for him when Sam brings up hope for either Mary or Jack.

On 10/29/2017 at 10:55 AM, MysteryGuest said:

When Dean finds Jack repeatedly stabbing himself, you can see that it was upsetting to him.  He told him to stop and took the knife away.  He didn't encourage him to keep trying.  He did also tell him that if he begins to hurt people, Dean will do whatever he can to stop him.

I think Dean seeing Jack stabbing himself and clearly being upset in a very human way, humanized Jack to Dean. And I think Dean then felt the need to remind him that he's going to kill him because he needed to redraw that boundary, since it got a little fuzzier when he momentarily saw Jack as a troubled kid and not as a threat/monster.

I think that Dean generally is trying to keep stoking the fires of his animosity toward Jack because he is afraid that if he doesn't, he'll choke when it comes down to actually killing him (for the greater good). He has clearly choked more than once when it came to choose between saving Sam or saving the world, and he can't let that happen again with Jack. I think he specifically wants to *avoid* the danger of seeing Sam (or himself) in the kid, because it's already going to be hard enough to kill him (or even just lose him) when the time comes, and loving him like a son or brother would just make that worse.

To me, Sam comes off looking good in the sense that he's still willing to open up his heart to Jack despite losing a lot of people he loved. I think opening his heart and hoping for the best is the better and stronger tact to take. But Sam is also more able/free than Dean to do that because he doesn't feel the same kind of pessimism/doom about Jack's fate as Dean does (Sam has always been more hopeful, really) and doesn't feel the same general weight of responsibility for the entire world that Dean does.

On 10/29/2017 at 11:06 AM, Bessie said:

He may think he is, but in reality he’s not. Maybe he needs to come to terms with that and it’s part of his ambiguity toward his role (based on his own views) as the one who has to be prepared to kill jack. 

Yes, I agree that Dean thinks it's his responsibility to save the world, and next time this comes up he's probably going to have to save the world from Jack, and so he has to keep seeing Jack as an enemy or at least dehumanize him in order to do it.

Sam feels responsible for Jack, not for the whole world [in the same way that Dean does] so for him, it's not an either/or kind of thing. He doesn't feel irresponsible for nurturing Jack because he doesn't think he's going to end up having to kill him for the greater good.

What was the title of the episode when the two of them are in a mental hospital, and Dean is freaking out and scared because he doesn't think he can save everybody but feels that he needs to, and Sam gets into rages at how screwed up everything is and how he can't stop he himself from screwing up, too? This conflict kind of reminds me of that. But in a good way, not in a re-tread way.

On 10/29/2017 at 11:18 AM, DittyDotDot said:

What I find interesting here is, this is probably how John felt about Sam at times. He wouldn't have wanted to do it, but I think part of his butting heads with Sam was John trying to put up walls between him and Sam so if it came down to it, he might be more able to kill Sam. The big difference between John and Dean with regards to saving Sam, Dean didn't allow himself to see Sam as bad so when it came down to killing him or saving him, Dean chose to save him.

Interesting angle!

[KSenniaV]

CASTIEL!!!! OMG, OMG, OMG!!!!!! I am sooo happy right now. They had better bring him fully back and not kill him again. 

I liked this eppy a lot because of Jody, I love Jody, so I love every eppy she's in. And I liked how she spoke to Patience at the end and said she could always call or come and stay with her if she needed a place to go. That was really sweet. I didn't like how bad at protecting Patience she and Dean were though. Jody should have gone up to Patience's room with her while she packed her suitcase. And really there should have been an argument or discussion about how it would be much better to stay and kill the wraith rather than just trying to run. And I didn't like how easily Jody got taken out, or that they all would have died if Patience wasn't there to tell them to move. But I know the writers thought it would be cool to have Patience use her ability to save everyone, and at least none of them died. And Dean got to kill something again, so that was good. 

I was sad they brought Missouri back just to kill her. I hate when shows do that. And I didn't like Sam yelling at Dean about Jack, although I did feel sorry for Jack. I liked watching the video his mom made for him, and of course I liked the ending. It was also nice to not have any Marifer or hell scenes, and to have an actual hunt adventure again. I also liked that Dean said the real reason he hates Jack and won't give him a chance is because he blames Castiel's death on him. 

Although, I actually think Castiel's death was on himself since to me it looked like he just went rogue and jumped into the rift for no reason, and that by doing that he totally made Crowley's sacrifice pointless. Unless of course I misunderstood and Castiel jumping back in to stab Lucifer was part of Crowley's plan. Either way I don't blame Jack for that. I doubt he made the rift on purpose, and it's definitely not his fault who his birth father is. But still if Jack can bring Cas back, really back, then I will be very, very happy!!!!!!

[The Companion]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:12 PM, MysteryGuest said:

 

Were we supposed to be stunned to see Cas at the end?  I'm not sure why the show runners insist on ruining their own surprises, but it definitely kills any shock value they might get.  This episode left me more than a bit underwhelmed, sadly. 

Least surprising twist ever. 

On 10/26/2017 at 9:30 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I know that it's vintage SPN to have Sam and Dean at odds and not really communicating, but it's frustrating to watch at this late stage of the game.  If they've learned nothing else, they should have learned the importance of coming clean with each other.  They each have legitimate concerns about Jack, and they also each have some personal issues that are coloring their feelings.  I know it's all about the drama, but it mainly just annoys me at this point.  

It is particularly frustrating after watching them resolve disagreements maturely in the past. The talking around each other is so frustrating to watch.

On 10/27/2017 at 11:01 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

They are very selective (as needs want) in what Jack does and doesn't understand about the world/language/biology etc. He understands when they need him to, and doesn't when they don't, for.. reasons. Crap writing.

And by pretty much any definition, Jack is a freak. A freak of nature if nothing else. But they are intent on throwing Dean under the bus this arc, so I'm sure it's not the last 'nasty' thing he says or does to Jack, until they have him apologizing to the spawn.

I am not gonna lie. Calling Jack a freak evoked a visceral reaction in me and I am having trouble getting past it. I love these characters, but I am having trouble liking Dean here.

It is hard to root for a solution that boils down to kill the freak. Dean has no clue who Jack will be. To constantly antagonize him and write him off is hard to get on board with for me.

On 10/27/2017 at 11:31 AM, Wayward Son said:

I think it could go either way. There’s the theory you’ve shown, or it’s simply the writers trying to highlight his childlike mindset i.e. he’s still too emotionally immature to make a distinction between Dean saying he’d only kill him if he went bad and Dean saying he’d kill him. 

Im hoping he’s being genuine because I like Jack and consider Alexander a great additions to the cast, but sadly I fully expect him to go dark side at some point -sigh-

Sadly, that is probably where we are headed because it would be unpredictable to go the other way and these writers don't like to tell new stories

On 10/27/2017 at 2:37 PM, catrox14 said:

Here is what I don't get. What is saving Jack going to prove for Sam? He freaking allowed Lucifer to possess him to make up for his mistakes with demon blood and letting Lucifer out and saved the world in the process. He said in s7 that he doesn't have anymore guilt for what he did because he felt like he had made up for it. In s8, he said the trials were purifying him which implies that he no longer felt tainted. As recently as s11, when he faced Lucifer again, he said "No".

Yes, I get what the narrative is trying to push WRT to Sam but I just can't fathom what believing in Jack's "goodness" is going to prove to Sam about himself. 

I would have more respect for Sam's position if he kept his argument to 1) Inter-dimensional can opener usage  2) That Jack as a partial human being deserves a chance just for that alone. He loses me every time he makes the arguments about himself. That he knows how it feels. I just want to yell at him and say "Sam, you clearly have issues with yourself here still. See a psychic counselor or something".

In fairness, I have been treated like a freak and called names and my nature didn't cause anyone to die. I am comfortable with who I am and I could still barely read this thread because of the memories that the word freak being thrown around dredged up. And I fully understand that my history may be coloring my view here, but this was pretty fucking terrible to me and I don't think it is fair to say Sam has issues for being hurt by this.  

On 10/27/2017 at 7:05 PM, catrox14 said:

Another thing that bothers me is Sam saying that him drinking demon blood didn't end bad for Sam.

Honestly, how is that true? Is it because Dean didn't kill him? Like Sam did do some awful things because of the demon blood. Like why was that even something to include. I feel like I must be missing something.

I think he means because he went on to do good things and save lives. He wasn't irredeemable. His status as a YED kid didn't mean he was a monster incapable of being saved.

I am trying really hard not to veer into a territory that requires a different thread. Dean's use of the word freak here is something I need some time to get past. 

As for the story, I liked Patience but hated them bringing Missouri back to kill her (at least she got to have some agency in her death). The story itself was a but uneven, but I probably wouldn't have disliked this episode for the story aspects despite the retcon issues. 

I am over the Sam vs. Dean stuff.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

but I am having trouble liking Dean here.

I'm not.  Jack is powerful.  If he decides to go all evil they'll have a real problem on their hands and Dean is the only one trying to get out in front of the problem.

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm not.  Jack is powerful.  If he decides to go all evil they'll have a real problem on their hands and Dean is the only one trying to get out in front of the problem.

It's not the fact that he is worried Jack may be a problem, it is the cruelty in the way he talks about Jack. As I said, this is probably a perspective that roots deeply in being bullied as a kid and being made to feel like a freak because of certain aspects of my personality and identity. There is just something truly abhorrent to me about hating someone because of their nature at birth, rather than because of their actions. Seeking a way to kill Jack if he got out of hand doesn't bother me.  Constantly dismissing him, calling him names, etc. does. 

I am not joking that I had to step away from this thread multiple times because of the use of the word freak, though, so I know mileage likely varies.

[gonzosgirrl]

Don't worry, this is only the beginning of the ways Dabb found to make people scorn mean ol' Dean and feel sorry for the Nougat baby. You will have plenty of company on that train (and ample opportunities to see Dean beat up for it, too). Everybody gets compassion and understanding for feeling their feelings but Dean. In other news, water is wet.

I understand that we all have our triggers - things we just can't get past. I'm sorry that the word you understandably have issues with is a big part of this (and future) discussion of the Spawn.

PS... it should also be noted that every single reference to Nephilim (post Metatron) emphasized that they were dangerous abominations. IMO, given the givens, Dean was the only one responding correctly.

Edited March 9, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[BabySpinach]

1 minute ago, The Companion said:

It's not the fact that he is worried Jack may be a problem, it is the cruelty in the way he talks about Jack. As I said, this is probably a perspective that roots deeply in being bullied as a kid and being made to feel like a freak because of certain aspects of my personality and identity. There is just something truly abhorrent to me about hating someone because of their nature at birth, rather than because of their actions. Seeking a way to kill Jack if he got out of hand doesn't bother me.  Constantly dismissing him, calling him names, etc. does. 

I am not joking that I had to step away from this thread multiple times because of the use of the word freak, though, so I know mileage likely varies.

But this isn't just about Jack's passive nature as a nephilim, it's also about the fact that this super-special powerful being, by virtue of his age and inexperience, is a gullible moron who has already hurt multiple people and almost brought on (yet another!) apocalypse just because he was told to. Not to mention that, even in utero, he brainwashed both Cas and his mom into protecting him and was indirectly responsible for the former's death and directly responsible for the latter's. He's been surrounded by death and chaos ever since his conception. 

I think that sweet words are a little lower on the priority list at the moment. Being called names by a grieving and angry man (unintentionally overheard, not even directly to his face), after all that fallout, is getting off easy IMO. 

But of course, the show then makes the guy who lost his best friend and his mom look like the mean bully for having reservations about this arbitrarily powerful being who has the reasoning skills of a naive child. They intentionally push Dean's actions and words a little too far so that his reasonable emotions are invalidated and seen as excessive, all to make us feel sorrier for poor, cute Jack, the newest writers' pet. Add on a generous serving of Infinite Wisdom Sam lecturing Dean on Doing Feelings Wrong, and it's typical of Dabb-era SPN.

Admittedly, I also LOATHE the super-powered baby trope, especially the instant-grown kind. I don't enjoy watching coddled manchildren with unearned, world-breaking powers who also need help tying their shoes or wiping their butt. And because they're babies, the most interesting thing about them is usually their shiny power rather than their personality or motivation. Jack's one character trait is "cute." And having to watch the main characters babysit and tiptoe around a nuke toddler also didn't do much for me.

[Myrelle]

46 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

But of course, the show then makes the guy who lost his best friend and his mom look like the mean bully for having reservations about this arbitrarily powerful being who has the reasoning skills of a naive child. They intentionally push Dean's actions and words a little too far so that his reasonable emotions are invalidated and seen as excessive, all to make us feel sorrier for poor, cute Jack, the newest writers' pet. Add on a generous serving of Infinite Wisdom Sam lecturing Dean on Doing Feelings Wrong, and it's typical of Dabb-era SPN.

Dabb killed the show with this type of writing, AFAIC. 

 

Spoiler

And as others have mentioned, strap in because it gets worse until the usual happens yet again and some more; and until the next time that Dabb and co. decide that they want to do it again.

Spoiler tagging even though it's really just a generalized spoiler. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Myrelle
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