S02.E02: Chapter Fifteen: Nighthawks

[morakot]

You know what would help Archie keep the house safe? Actually locking the front and back doors. Jughead and Reggie both came into the house and surprised Archie.

[Dee]

Other than MR's availability, did the show give any reason why Mary couldn't remain in Riverdale?

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, morakot said:

You know what would help Archie keep the house safe? Actually locking the front and back doors.

Archie is from a quaint town where no one ever had to lock their doors. But, now that Betty has single handedly brought evil to Riverdale, I think he might want to start.

My mom would laugh at me for locking the doors at her house when I go puppy sit because she lives in that kind of quiet New England town where they know the name of every family on the street. I'm like, nope, single female, I'm locking all the doors I don't care where you live.

[UNOSEZ]

I like her well enough but I’m not sure IMA fan if the character… OR at least how some of her choices (and Jughead for that matter) are rewarded… Chuck was a scumbag.. But she drugged assaulted and left a teen-ager handcuffed in a dangerous situation… And got high fives… She blackmailed a girl to speak on behalf of the criminal who not only disposed of her dead brother’s body.. But knew she was in the house with a murderer and said nothing.. She also just forced Josie and her friends to perform at Pop’s even after Josie said she could get in serious trouble with her controlling mother (something you would think Betty would get) and no repercussions.. All that and Jughead might be worse.. He’s passive aggressive.. Judgemental… Quick to accuse or fly off the handle..with a bit of a superiority complex . I’m sure he has some jealousy of Archie swimming around in his psyche… He also assaulted Chuck.. Then his criminal father put his hands on him… Yet nothing happened… Don’t get me wrong I still like the show.. I just hope some of this behavior is at least addressed.. And maybe even handled in some way

[PeekaBoo]

Not sure where to put this but this week's synopsis talks of jughead's first day at south side high.. emm.... hasn't he had one already in episode 13? Or is it meant to be a flashback? Or is it suddenly a little screw up in the timeline? ?

[methodwriter85]

6 hours ago, PeekaBoo said:

Not sure where to put this but this week's synopsis talks of jughead's first day at south side high.. emm.... hasn't he had one already in episode 13? Or is it meant to be a flashback? Or is it suddenly a little screw up in the timeline? ?

He did a tour of Southside High, and said that he felt more at home there.

Kevin is seriously hot. It's a shame he has to resort to cruising.

Archie forming a vigilante group...what a messed up kid with his heart in the right place.

[kmcarte]

On 10/18/2017 at 9:06 PM, Advance35 said:

Hubba Hubba Hubba. Hiram Lodge. Yummy. No wonder Hermione wears a smug look on her face a majority of the time, I would too if stabled a stud that looked like that.

HA! and also, agreed.

 

On 10/18/2017 at 9:51 PM, absnow54 said:

I love the tension over Jughead owing the serpent lawyer a favor when all she did was suggest they get the Blossoms to forgive FP? Like she didn't even coerce the forgiveness (Betty did that for free) or bribe a judge or pull strings or give him morally ambiguous advice that could damn Jughead.  Jughead sending her a burger and shake would probably be a suitable thanks for her effort. 

Especially sense (this bothered me so much) Freaking FP is still  high ranking member in good standing of the freaking Serpents!!!   Literally she should already be representing him!!  I don;t think I missed the scene where the gave any reason, no matter how half-assed for her to be not representing him. she is the lawyer! for the Serpents! of which he is one!  Who proofread this script?  Just saying that out loud should have been enough for the penny to drop for these dummies.  I hope there's not too much plot hinging on this debt Jug supposedly owes, bc that's only going to be even more absurd.

On 10/19/2017 at 2:43 AM, wingster55 said:

Jughead does remember that his dad's a recovering alcoholic, an awful father, tampered with evidence and who knows what else. While twenty years is a long time especially when one is 16, claiming Mayor Mccoy is turning her back on FP...is just wrong. 

Jughead remembers nothing.  Possibly ever.  He doesn't seem to remember Betty telling everyone that FP and the Serpents are part of the town that they should embrace when those guys handed him him the jacket either.  

 

On 10/19/2017 at 7:21 AM, Dee said:

Speaking of Betty, she is a MAJOR asshole. And in need of a serious comeuppance. Unfortunately, since she's a member of the 'Core Four' that will never happen.

Josie & Mel are adorable. And Mel actually got to speak. All it took was giving Val an infectious disease.

Agree so much.  Betty, IMO, did the single worst thing a teenager has done on this show so far in this episode.  Threatening a girl who just lost her father and whose mother has been horrifically burned, with a tape of her twin brother (who you know she was insanely close to) being shot in the head by their father just a little while after she tried to literally kill herself?  And you're going to put that tape on the internet?  Did Betty even consider how that action would have affected her sister? I feel like the writers have no idea how terrible and unforgivable of an action that was.  She could literally save Cheryl's live a dozen times and I would still be 100% on board for Cheryl spending the entire rest of her life dedicated to making sure that Betty dies alone and miserable.  

Last season the 'super evil, must be punished' thing was a bang book that was partly lies, and this season Betty does something like this and they try to play it off like no big deal?  They went from 'she's so dark and scary! Look how she pours maple syrup on a jock!' to 'literal blackmail that carrying out would emotionally cripple two people at least, and also one of them is already suicidal and you know it and that why she's doing it'  not only that, but there's a decent argument to be made for FP having gotten what's his name killed.  He might not have pulled the trigger, but he did lock him up in the basement and let crazy Mr. Blossom have a go at him.  

This bit just really upset me.  Guys that do revenge porn officially have a moral high ground to freaking Betty Cooper.  The only saving grace is that we can't know for sure that she would have gone through with it.  I do think though, that we are supposed to think that she would have.  

[Bugs Meany]

11 hours ago, kmcarte said:

Betty, IMO, did the single worst thing a teenager has done on this show so far in this episode.

But...but...she's so cute! Please, no more thoroughly convincing arguments that I shouldn't love her so much :(

[truthaboutluv]

15 hours ago, kmcarte said:

Threatening a girl who just lost her father and whose mother has been horrifically burned,

Wasn't her mother horrifically burned in the fire Cheryl deliberately started? And while it's been left sort of vague, there's a creepy undertone of Cheryl having deliberately wanting to hurt her mother. Not that I'm necessarily arguing against the point.

Edited October 28, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[kmcarte]

20 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Wasn't her mother horrifically burned in the fire Cheryl deliberately started? And while it's been left sort of vague, there's a creepy undertone of Cheryl having deliberately wanted to hurt her mother. Not that I'm necessarily arguing against the point.

That is a good point, but Betty doesn't know that.  Also, I think you could argue that Cheryl went out of her way to set the fire so that her mother would definitely be able to escape.

 

Related: anyone have ideas on if we're supposed to think Cheryl was telling the truth when she said her mom ran in to get that ugly painting?  The whole trying to save the grandmother thing is already admitted to as a lie.  I mean, would she lie to her mom about something her mom did? does that even make sense?

Edited October 28, 2017 by kmcarte
Edited for clarity

[WhosThatGirl]

For me, I don’t know.. it seems like none of the characters on this show are innocent. Save for Fred maybe? The most he has done that we know of so far in the series was having a DUI pre the show, otherwise all of the characters have done awful things or said awful things so I don’t think much of it. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[truthaboutluv]

17 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

For me, I don’t know.. it seems like none of the characters on this show are innocent.

For me it's that this show is not serious enough for me to care that much about most of these people's actions. That was one of the things I struggled with the show during last season. While I enjoyed it well enough for what it was, I wasn't really invested in much of it because it was so all over the place. Part murder mystery, part film noir, part cliche teen angst, etc. And it's why I actually haven't felt much urgency to watch this season. I enjoyed the finale, was annoyed when they moved it to Wednesday at 8 because it would be competing with Survivor and I knew that meant it would have to be relegated to delayed viewing. And yet, it's there scheduled to watch but other than some clips here and there, I actually haven't sat and watched an entire episode this whole season. 

[Mabinogia]

As long as the characters entertain me I really don't have a rats ass to give about their moral standing. That's why Cheryl is a favorite. Not cause she's a nice person, that's for sure. lol I love that Betty is not some sweet little pushover who does everything right and saves the day with pluck and determination. That can be Archie's role, the moron who thinks sitting up all night with a baseball bat is going to protect his father from a gunman. Also, Betty is her mothers daughter so I just see the manipulation and blackmailing ways as just following in mommy's footsteps. 

Hmm, thinking about it, Jughead is the only boy I like on the show. My favorites are Betty, Cheryl and Veronica. Of the adults I like Alice and FP. That's about it. I have no use for the Lodges. I find them boring. IDK if it's the acting or the storyline, but I just don't care about them at all. I hope Veronica finds a way to bring them both down. Then she can rehire Smithers and be a poor little rich orphan. 

[WhosThatGirl]

23 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

As long as the characters entertain me I really don't have a rats ass to give about their moral standing. That's why Cheryl is a favorite. Not cause she's a nice person, that's for sure. lol I love that Betty is not some sweet little pushover who does everything right and saves the day with pluck and determination. That can be Archie's role, the moron who thinks sitting up all night with a baseball bat is going to protect his father from a gunman. Also, Betty is her mothers daughter so I just see the manipulation and blackmailing ways as just following in mommy's footsteps. 

Hmm, thinking about it, Jughead is the only boy I like on the show. My favorites are Betty, Cheryl and Veronica. Of the adults I like Alice and FP. That's about it. I have no use for the Lodges. I find them boring. IDK if it's the acting or the storyline, but I just don't care about them at all. I hope Veronica finds a way to bring them both down. Then she can rehire Smithers and be a poor little rich orphan. 

Yeah I mean.. I take anything these characters do With a grain of salt, considering someone’s going to do something morally even more wrong in the next scene probably. Hell, this show first begun with a teacher student relationship.. so seriously everyone is doing bad deeds on this show.

im not feeling the Lodge parents either. I’m not sure why, I think I’m having a hard time recovering from the whiplash of Hermione and I find them all together kind of boring. The story of a rich girl with rich parents doesn’t interest ke. Maybe Hiram will have something to do with the mystery this season. That’s why it feels weak to me so far. It seems like they are in a totally different show right now, like how Archie was last season when he was playing guitar and hooking up with a different girl every two episodes, but still. 

[kmcarte]

20 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah I mean.. I take anything these characters do With a grain of salt, considering someone’s going to do something morally even more wrong in the next scene probably. Hell, this show first begun with a teacher student relationship.. so seriously everyone is doing bad deeds on this show.

im not feeling the Lodge parents either. I’m not sure why, I think I’m having a hard time recovering from the whiplash of Hermione and I find them all together kind of boring. The story of a rich girl with rich parents doesn’t interest ke. Maybe Hiram will have something to do with the mystery this season. That’s why it feels weak to me so far. It seems like they are in a totally different show right now, like how Archie was last season when he was playing guitar and hooking up with a different girl every two episodes, but still. 

I completely agree that everyone is morally grey, the thing with Betty only annoys me bc I feel like it got swept aside very quickly.  Whereas Grundy, for example, was clearly shown to be a genuine predator who left Riverdale and promptly began abusing another child in Greendale.  I really thought that was a great way for the show to make it clear that what she had done was wrong, and that Archie wasn't able to be objective about what had happened.  

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Veronica.  I don't think her actress is very strong, and I'm more interested in her parents then her own storylines.  At least with her parents you get the idea that they've rolled up their sleeves and gotten into some serious nastiness to get what they have.  Veronica seems like she's just showing up places and waiting for people to give her things all the time. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Oh yeah last season I thought Veronica had no storyline, she really was just showing up in scenes and being the background for everyone else.

I don’t know, I still feel like my favorites are Betty and Jughead, and then Cheryl and sometimes Veronica. Archie’s been okay so far this season but then again I laugh when he’s doing things like sitting in his dark living room with a broken hand a baseball bat. The hell is that going to do? So jurys out.

[Mr. Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I have no use for the Lodges. I find them boring. IDK if it's the acting or the storyline, but I just don't care about them at all. 

Agreed. I think the actors are awful, especially the father. So wooden. The storyline is overdone also. I'm waiting for the father to twirl his mustache. And that's on this ridiculously overacted show. 

[Mabinogia]

I wonder if they are trying to make the Lodges the new Blossoms. Where the Blossoms were over the top gothic/old money, the Lodges are over the top mob boss/new money. IDK they just feel cartoony to me and while I was enjoying the Blossoms, because I love the whole gothic horror vibe they had, I am just not into the Lodges.

The only thing that will slightly salvage that family is if we find out Hermoine has been the boss all along and Hiram is just the "face" because we still live in a world where male bosses are better received than female bosses. Her behavior is shady as fuck. I've always found her shady, even when most people were all "she's the best parent on the show" I thought there was something not quite genuine with her. So I'd love to find out she's a stone cold bitch who is pitting her husband and daughter against each other so she can maintain control over them both. 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Both Hermione and Veronica seem terrified of Hiram. I wonder if it'll be shown that Hermione was acting afraid. 

And, IMO, the Blossom thing was last season. I get the feeling the writers have no idea what to do with them this season. Since they bring the fun-crazy, they'll keep them around, but I don't know if they'll be a major part of any plot. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Superclam

[secnarf]

8 hours ago, kmcarte said:

Related: anyone have ideas on if we're supposed to think Cheryl was telling the truth when she said her mom ran in to get that ugly painting?  The whole trying to save the grandmother thing is already admitted to as a lie.  I mean, would she lie to her mom about something her mom did? does that even make sense?

The grandmother hasn't been mentioned at all, has she? The story Cheryl told everyone was that her mother ran back into the house to try to save her ("her" being Cheryl). The painting was only mentioned when Cheryl was talking to her mother, and she would have no reason to lie at that point, right? Unless that exchange was Cheryl threatening her mom with spreading a rumour?

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I wonder if they are trying to make the Lodges the new Blossoms. Where the Blossoms were over the top gothic/old money, the Lodges are over the top mob boss/new money. IDK they just feel cartoony to me and while I was enjoying the Blossoms, because I love the whole gothic horror vibe they had, I am just not into the Lodges.

I was thinking as well that the Lodges are becoming more and more like the Blossoms. I get that Hiram being back will cause a new dynamic but it feels like a very drastic change. I have a hard time imagining these three people being a happy family before Hiram was arrested.

[STFUFrank]

9 hours ago, secnarf said:

The grandmother hasn't been mentioned at all, has she? The story Cheryl told everyone was that her mother ran back into the house to try to save her ("her" being Cheryl). The painting was only mentioned when Cheryl was talking to her mother, and she would have no reason to lie at that point, right? Unless that exchange was Cheryl threatening her mom with spreading a rumour?

I was thinking as well that the Lodges are becoming more and more like the Blossoms. I get that Hiram being back will cause a new dynamic but it feels like a very drastic change. I have a hard time imagining these three people being a happy family before Hiram was arrested.

 Maybe it was Veronica who thought they were happy back in New York (sometimes kids are none the wiser) but now she's seeing what's always been there. It's possible Hiram and Hermione presented a good front before prison but can no longer do so anymore. 

[Affogato]

On 10/28/2017 at 3:44 PM, kmcarte said:

.  I mean, would she lie to her mom about something her mom did? does that even make sense?

She would if she’s telling her Mom the official story of what happened. 

‘This iis what happened if you know what’s good for you. ‘

[Affogato]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:54 AM, Dee said:

Other than MR's availability, did the show give any reason why Mary couldn't remain in Riverdale?

Isn’t she a lawyer in Chicago?  Job, life?

[queenanne]

On 10/18/2017 at 9:42 PM, RandomWatcher said:

How is Jughead this all knowing narrator?

 

On 10/18/2017 at 10:02 PM, bettername2come said:

I assume Jughead is writing from the future once this all gets solved.

Yeah, this whole "chapter" titling concept makes me think that Juggie winds up a published novelist.

On 10/19/2017 at 0:45 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I mean.. Jughead made a comment last week that the foster parents were going to let him live at the trailer and just tell the social worker what Greg needed to know. I assume he’s still at Southside High, we’ve only seen the other kids at school doing school stuff. My guess is by next week we will see Southside High. It hasn’t been important to the plot yet.

I do wonder should that change if F.P. gets out? Are we just going to move  Jughead back to Riverdale High? Because the whole point of him having to move to the Southside and attend the different school was becaus F.P. was in jail? I don’t know, I know he’s not out of jail yet and we have probably some time on it but I’m curious about what it means. 

I think the Southside High is a plot device to get more of the canon/comics characters into play and let Riverdale High breathe.  I could be wrong.

On 10/20/2017 at 0:14 PM, Enginerd said:

I think I've only ever heard it from sort of rustic southern characters in tv shows. Maybe that's who the writers are channeling when they create Fred's dialogue, to give him a sort of salt-of-the-earth blue-collar vibe? It probably isn't meant to insinuate anything else...it was just repeated so many times that it started to sound like protesting too much to me!

I thought maybe there was something to Fred seeing all the redheads lined up in a row at his funeral (? Varchie's wedding?), including Archie and Mary.  Maybe he was having a subconscious reveal?

I'm still interested in the crazy plotting, but to some extent I feel like it's weird because these writers aren't approaching their jobs like "things people would realistically do and/or say", as they are going after it with "Zomg!  Gotcha!" attempts at So!  Original! storytelling.  They've come up with more things and rationales for characters to say that strike me as mountains-over-molehills than I can say, really.  The aforementioned "Pop's is now a drug haven!"; "Mama Mayor is oh so controlling!"  (really?  I don't see controlling people letting their teenagers be in rock bands); half the things Cheryl says, etc., etc.