GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[Harmony233]

I might be wrong but was it guza who do the Carly sleeping with AJ the writers in between said they wanted Carly and AJ to be the next alan and monica.

[UYI]

I might be wrong but was it guza who do the Carly sleeping with AJ the writers in between said they wanted Carly and AJ to be the next alan and monica.

 

Didn't Richard Culliton write AJ & Carly's ONS?

[Lobsel Vith]

Some Michael/Jason talk makes me wonder why, if Guza hated AJ so much and wanted Jason to be the dad why not just make up a fake flashback of Carly having sex with Jason, the bartender, anyone, after she left AJ, whatever. He just worked SO HARD to make AJ not his dad, why not just actually do it in the end?

Probably to make Jason more of a martyr in losing Michael, since Monica and Emily instantly whitewashed his crime against AJ, and he was treated like a better father all the time (from the absurdly fake baby crying to Jason criticizing AJ for not knowing that Michael likes the water, and all that).

Guza did use Michael not being Sonny's biological son to make him come across as better than the Quartermaines for "loving" a nonbiological relative. The biased writing always did vilify AJ in absurd ways.

[ulkis]

Didn't Richard Culliton write AJ & Carly's ONS?

 

Yes.

[ulkis]

They did an amazing job with that, interweaving the flashback storyline with the current one. 

 

There were about 20 flashbacks in total, airing on M-W-F over three weeks. Whoever was in charge of the breakdowns did an amazing job.

 

The location shoots were among my favorite. Santa Barbara passed well for a French hotel, the French and Italian Riviera, and an Italian village. The courtyard where Robert and Anna were first married is one of my favorite all-time locations.

 

Here's the portion of a playlist with the 1985 scenes and the flashbacks:

 

https://youtu.be/rZUb9IijIS0?list=PLCD089F8EF5C3A333

 

I'm enjoying this story, although my thoughts are mostly shallow ones so far:

 

I don't hate Holly (sorry ;) ) but her 80s hair really detracts from her beauty that I've heard some people talk about. It's not good. I liked it when she said "why isn't it best woman, not matron on honor."

 

Reversely, Anna really benefits from not having bad 80s hair. Most of the time. 

 

Celia and Jimmy Lee are annoying as hell.

 

Ah, so Port Charles has had Docks since the 80s. Good to know.

Edited April 23, 2016 by ulkis

[UYI]

 

 

I don't hate Holly (sorry ;) ) but her 80s hair really detracts from her beauty that I've heard some people talk about. It's not good. 

 

 

 

 

YES. Her hair looked MUCH better when she came back in 1992, and brought out her beauty more. Her 80's hair is just tragic. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by UYI

[SlovakPrincess]

On April 23, 2016 at 3:11 PM, ulkis said:

 

I'm enjoying this story, although my thoughts are mostly shallow ones so far:

 

I don't hate Holly (sorry ;) ) but her 80s hair really detracts from her beauty that I've heard some people talk about. It's not good. I liked it when she said "why isn't it best woman, not matron on honor."

 

Reversely, Anna really benefits from not having bad 80s hair. Most of the time. 

 

Celia and Jimmy Lee are annoying as hell.

 

Ah, so Port Charles has had Docks since the 80s. Good to know.

 

Holly's hair started out ok in '82 and seemed to get progressively worse over time.   Anna had great hair for the most part ... although there was some unfortunate bangs-hairspraying late in the decade.  

 

There's a great Holly / Anna scene in '85, which is actually both a big turning point for Anna's character and a good moment of Holly standing up for herself ... and yet it is almost ruined by their ridiculous clothes and Holly's hair.  Oh, and Anna's fake scar, which also really did not help matters!   Hee.

Edited April 29, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[ulkis]

Quote

I feel like even if they did try to recreate GNO with a bunch of characters, it wouldn't be the same. There was something about that time of the show that was just....exciting. I don't know why.

as much as I despised Natalia Livingston I think Emily added a lot to the friendships on GH at the time and I think her loss hurt them a lot. And now the only two people allowed to be friends are Lulu/Maxie. 

[HeatLifer]

28 minutes ago, ulkis said:

as much as I despised Natalia Livingston I think Emily added a lot to the friendships on GH at the time and I think her loss hurt them a lot. And now the only two people allowed to be friends are Lulu/Maxie. 

I think friendships were also 100% more genuine and real back then.  You felt the love and support and connection between characters. 

[ulkis]

Besides Franco, what flopped character has GH tried to push the most? I'm asking because I'm just wondering if anyone ever even came close. Jenny Eckert? Bill?

[jsbt]

I think Michael Easton surpasses him based on sheer volume, but he's an actor (sort of).

It's been about three years since NuFranco arrived (I know, the time's just flown) so he's already got Bill beat. Plus Bill wasn't necessarily offensive from the outset.

Edited May 3, 2016 by jsbt

[HeatLifer]

What are you considering a flop, though? Because I think Sabrina and Nina are flops that GH has pushed to ridiculous levels, even though I know they have fans, as everyone does.

[ulkis]

3 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

What are you considering a flop, though? Because I think Sabrina and Nina are flops that GH has pushed to ridiculous levels, even though I know they have fans, as everyone does.

Someone who TPTB knew weren't working for the audience. I guess the question is more, "who did they push the most until they finally got rid of them or they actually started to become liked". I don't think Sabrina is a flop . . . anymore. I don't even remember her being particularly hated right at the start . . . it was only when they started pushing her perfect test scores that people really started turning against her, from what I remember.

I think Michael Easton surpasses him based on sheer volume, but he's an actor (sort of).

I can't believe I forgot about Easton.

[HeatLifer]

I dunno. Because in the case of Easton, I think the majority of outrage (I didn't run a poll, but my observations are killer!) was from JaSam fans. Sometimes I wonder how he would have been received if he had nothing to do with Sam/KeMo.

[ulkis]

Just now, HeatLifer said:

I dunno. Because in the case of Easton, I think the majority of outrage (I didn't run a poll, but my observations are killer!) was from JaSam fans. Sometimes I wonder how he would have been received if he had nothing to do with Sam/KeMo.

It probably would have helped, but I think a lot of it just came from people who didn't want the OLTL actors on in general. :points to self:

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, ulkis said:

It probably would have helped, but I think a lot of it just came from people who didn't want the OLTL actors on in general. :points to self:

And I understand that. I was one of those people. But I mostly didn't want those characters on GH. If they brought Easton on from the jump as a random character? I just feel like things would have been different.

[Oracle42]

I liked McBain.I thought he worked better on GH than he had on OLTL. I loved his interactions with Anna and I thought he had chem with KeMo - though their "don't I know you" dialogue made me stabby and the OOC behavior by Jason/Sam to accommodate a McBain/Sam pairing was irritating - but Silas? Horrible. Terrible in every possible way and Jason was dead so that didn't have any bearing on my reaction to him

Edited May 3, 2016 by Oracle42

[ulkis]

any goodwill probably would have been gone once he started pursing his lips in judgement, heh. So far I like him as Finn, but I think they only wrote the character this way is they realized they had to do something different. If Easton came on as a new character he would have been McBain lite, like Silas ended up being after a month. But we'll never know.

[dubbel zout]

Levi didn't work AT ALL. I don't think Starr and Hope worked on GH, and I'm still glad they were killed off. I don't think Lauren works, either, but she's necessary from a demographic standpoint.

[HeatLifer]

10 minutes ago, ulkis said:

any goodwill probably would have been gone once he started pursing his lips in judgement, heh. So far I like him as Finn, but I think they only wrote the character this way is they realized they had to do something different. If Easton came on as a new character he would have been McBain lite, like Silas ended up being after a month. But we'll never know.

You're right, we won't ever know as a fact. I DO know that I haven't been seeing fiery hate for Easton/Finn these days and I can gather as to why, lol.

[KerleyQ]

17 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

You're right, we won't ever know as a fact. I DO know that I haven't been seeing fiery hate for Easton/Finn these days and I can gather as to why, lol.

I don't think that the hate being lessened has to do with the JaSam factor, so much as the fact that he's spent a big chunk of his time so far opposite Tracy, and he's actually been enjoyable with her.  Also, so far, ME seems to be trying more than he has in recent memory.  

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

I don't think that the hate being lessened has to do with the JaSam factor, so much as the fact that he's spent a big chunk of his time so far opposite Tracy, and he's actually been enjoyable with her.  Also, so far, ME seems to be trying more than he has in recent memory.  

I completely agree. But I also think it's bc he's far, far away from KeMo. It's a factor in my eyes, that's all.

[UYI]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

Besides Franco, what flopped character has GH tried to push the most? I'm asking because I'm just wondering if anyone ever even came close. Jenny Eckert? Bill?

 

Would Lily count? Although even she had like 5 fans out there. 

[KerleyQ]

2 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

I completely agree. But I also think it's bc he's far, far away from KeMo. It's a factor in my eyes, that's all.

Hey, I enjoy most people more when they're far, far away from KeMo.  

[HeatLifer]

1 minute ago, UYI said:

 

Would Lily count? Although even she had like 5 fans out there. 

LOLOL. That's what's so funny. No one is ever completely hated. They all have fans. All of 'EM!

[ulkis]

Somewhere out there is a Juan/Audrey message board.

[UYI]

There are two examples I can think of from JFP's first year: Angel and Melissa. 

[WendyCR72]

Reese hatred even had Carly/Alexis fans holding hands and singing kumbaya. THAT was fun!

[ulkis]

Quote

Possibly, I guess. On the other hand, I think there was more consistency in the way there were jabs about SK and KMc's appearance than anything against KeMo/Sam ever.

Oh, trust me, I'm definitely not saying Sam is the only one Scott Sickles has written jabs about. SK was a big one (er, no pun intended).

I've never noticed Ron and Ron's crew be mean about Kim's appearance. Guza, yes.

[HeatLifer]

11 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Oh, trust me, I'm definitely not saying Sam is the only one Scott Sickles has written jabs about. SK was a big one (er, no pun intended).

I've never noticed Ron and Ron's crew be mean about Kim's appearance. Guza, yes.

Oh, I've got a few Ron gems off the top of my head and he even had one final hilariously stupid  one on his way out.

My main point is I've seen nothing personal against KeMo from the writers. 

[ulkis]

I mean, I don't think it's personal either, unless disliking KeMo's low-talking, coming-off-like-she's-hungover performance counts as personal (although I have gotten a "this chick only got the job because of her boobs"  sense from his scripts sometimes too). In that case then I have something personal against KM too, heh.

I think the only person they had something personal against was SK, and I think that was only Frank and Ron and not the scriptwriters.

[HeatLifer]

Mo and Geary against Ron is interesting, though. Had to be a two-way street.

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Mo and Geary against Ron is interesting, though. Had to be a two-way street.

Maybe. I don't think Maurice appreciated Sonny killing AJ and then screwing his son's girlfriend on his crypt, but I don't know if that was personal with Ron. He has a long habit of taking his favorites too far (he thinks he can bounce them back from anything - mind you, I'm not saying Sonny was a favorite of Ron). I definitely think a bit of it though was Frank putting Sonny in a position to be able to easily leave the show if contract negotiations didn't work out. Which makes the mutual ass-kissing now interesting.

I think Tony's beef with Ron, besides the general stupidity of the writing, was definitely just that Ron wanted to put Luke and Laura back together. Ron is petty and childish but I don't think he would have had the guts to provoke TG first. imo that all just started because Tony was mad Ron tried to return to Luke and Laura.

all my opinion and speculation only, of course.

[HeatLifer]

I think Tony's prob was more than LL, too. I don't think he liked the Jake BS at ALL.

[Chairperson Meow]

Regarding Mo:  I actually do think he is a diva and wasn't prepared for Frank to literally let him walk.  I think he believed he could play ball and get what he wanted.  Frank is all about saving money,  which is how he keeps the show on and how everyone keeps their jobs.  It's not the 90s anymore.  Mo can't disappear for days and be begged back to set.  I think he threw a fit and got written out.  I honestly don't think AJ was ever meant to be permanently dead.  Why?  Because Ron loves a good twist and an open casket funeral.  AJ had a closed casket funeral.  I think Ron intended to recast AJ with some name actor, but Mo resigned and that's where the budget went.  So, we got Jake Doe with nothing to do because it was supposed to be AJ vs Jason or A Tale of Two Todds Part Two.  Regarding TG:  I think he just hated that Jake was alive, that Bill Eckhart wasn't involved, that Luke's family was involved, and that Luke was nice to Laura.  TG hates family stuff.  

Regarding flops:  Waste of an actor:  Roger Howarth.  They could've done anything with him.  Recast AJ, Stephen Lars, a Cassadine, a doctor.  And... they chose the worst joke of a character?   Oh my.  Also, MSt is only just now being used decently.  Waste of a character :  Sabrina.  Because why?  Also, Felix.  

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

I think Tony's prob was more than LL, too. I don't think he liked the Jake BS at ALL.

No, he didn't, but that was penned when he had one foot out the door. His grudge was already in place by then imo.

[SlovakPrincess]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Levi didn't work AT ALL. I don't think Starr and Hope worked on GH, and I'm still glad they were killed off. I don't think Lauren works, either, but she's necessary from a demographic standpoint.

 

To be fair, I don't think Levi was ever supposed to be long term / liked by the audience.  He still failed as a compelling or believable villain, but at least Ron killed him off, unlike all of the other villains who Ron inexplicably loved and gave some sort of weird happy ending or increasing immortal powers.  

Biggest flops (which I think of as characters the audience was supposed to embrace, but were mostly unpopular) were probably: Bill Eckert, Miguel, Lily, RogerHowarthFranco, Nina, Silas, Lauren.    

Honestly, I do think Sabrina is a flop.  I mean, the effect was muted because all the other characters have been so wrecked by the writers, and I'm sure she has her fans.   But I don't think she's become widely beloved, as FrankenRon were doubtless intending.  

Oh, and probably Jackie Templeton (Demi Moore) from the 80s!  Demi's movie-shooting schedule played a part, I'm sure, but they must have figured out the audience didn't like the character because they gave up on her in an epic way.   Within a year, Jackie went from scrappy heroine reporter to a bitter pill practically obsessed with hating her ex-boyfriend (Robert).  

Edited May 4, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[Chairperson Meow]

I think KA's Lauren was a flop.  HE's Lauren is not.  Hayley Erin portrays Lauren/Kiki as she is supposed to be-  a boho latchkey city key raised by a single mom.  KA would've been better suited playing an Ellie type of character.   She's smart, so I don't get why she insists on playing dumb.  The pretty heroine isn't her, she's above it, and that's okay.  Another interesting thing is that I've been marathoning How I Met Your Mother on Netflix again.  Theresa Castillo is on an episode in season 7 (the one with the storm where Robin and Barney hook up again).  She plays a very different character from Sabrina, not a bad girl or bimbo, but a Ted love interest to be.  Interesting that with decent writing she was great.  (Not to mention with better hair/makeup she was gorgeous.)  

[Francie]

Subject to revision upon further contemplation: My picks for biggest flops: 1) Jenny Eckert; 2) Mac Scorpio*; 3) Nina; 4) Chloe; 5) Sam.**

*While he became somewhat popular in a supporting character manner, and is likable as one of the Scorpio can, he was supposed to be a lead actor and main male love interest. Fail!

**  When KeMo was brought over in 2003, she was supposed to be the new female lead of the show. And she floundered until she found a certain level of popularity with Jason. But I would argue rather than her finding her footing, the show lowered its standards as to what was popular. That  they got, maybe, 30% of an audience of about 4 million suddenly became acceptable as a lead rooting couple when previously you'd need about half the audience of a far larger viewership in their corner in order to be considered a success. I think those early years in the 2000s were critical on the demise of the soaps.  They were a sharper slippery slope back then, compared to the glacial erosion that it is happening now. Actually, I referred to this time as "the fumes."  Soaps are already dead. They just haven't put Y&R, Days and GH out of their respective miseries yet. And bold and the beautiful is an anomaly, due to its international popularity.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Francie

[SlovakPrincess]

Hugely unpopular opinion, I'm sure, but I think one of the things that messed up Mac-as-Romantic-Adventure-Hero was making him Robin's guardian so quickly.  He was in kind of a no-win situation ... Mac either looked like a stick in the mud when teen Robin was being rebellious, or looked neglectful toward his orphan neice when he was off trying to do something adventurous.*  Eventually, his primary story became "how do I parent a teenager?!" ... which did not give him much breathing room to develop into some dashing hero.   

 

* I know Mac is now regarded (justifiably) as the best parent in Port Charles, ever, but in the early 90s, I do remember forums where people joked that Mac must have forgotten Robin existed ... probably because of him going on the run with Felicia for a while.

Edited May 4, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[instant karma]

I agree that Sam was a flop. It's been how many years (13?) and I've yet to understand the point of the character. She's the original Nina and OLTL trio. Actor hired for the actor with no real part in mind and just shoved on screen, while the head writer just makes up things on the fly and rewrites it and rewrites it until something finally sticks. Still waiting for something to stick.

[tvgoddess]

She might be a flop for you, but I definitely wouldn't say she's a flop with most of the audience. She's a very popular character and has a fanbase that loves KeMo to death.

[jsbt]

I was all for McBain on GH; I thought the character worked there despite having despised him on OLTL with every fiber of my being, and I thought he had chemistry with Sam. I was all for him unseating Steve Burton's Jason. It was with Silas and then the inexplicable second rehiring now that really made me call him as the worst favorite of all (and I say that despite actually enjoying Finn so far with Tracy). Past JFP faves like Angel or Melissa are definitely top-tier, but they only lasted months - ME and Roger Howarth have never truly left us, and that is all on Frank.

I think Tony's grudge with Ron started early. Ron was very keen on redeeming the Luke character, starting by dealing with his alcoholism; to rebel against this Tony began improvising Luke taking drinks at the Q mansion, so they had to write around that instead. He wanted to reunite Luke and Laura, which Tony hated. And he did want to resurrect Jake. I think he was right about all these things and had the right instinct, but the execution was a complete cock-up when certain things happened at all. That's on Ron as is the horrific Fluke caper, but at the same time Tony fought him all the way.

As for other jabs: Ron and co. took a few shots at NLG in the last year or two. I remember Obrecht(?) commenting on Alexis' "mustache". I know Julian was never intended to be long-term and I don't think either Ron or Frank are terribly fond of the character or actor.

Edited May 4, 2016 by jsbt

[instant karma]

I said WAS. And she WAS. Do really think Sam was popular off the bat? Sam was hated when she was first forced onto the audience as the next big thing. Nina and Franco kind of hate. She didn't find her footing until they paired her with Jason (bonus being Jason free from Courtney). But her real popularity, at least KeMo's came from being the underdog on Dancing with the Stars. So I'd say it took about 2 years for the character to turn around. Not with me, but with parts of the audience.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

 * I know Mac is now regarded (justifiably) as the best parent in Port Charles, ever, but in the early 90s, I do remember forums where people joked that Mac must have forgotten Robin existed ... probably because of him going on the run with Felicia for a while.

Maybe Mac became a great parent to make up for killing his parents in a helicopter accident, heh. (That was the story, right?)

I forgot about Sam. She's very popular now but they pushed her hard. They even whipped out a secret mentally disabled brother she had been taking care of for years. When did Danny appear? 2004 or O5? 

Edited May 4, 2016 by ulkis

[jsbt]

Yeah, Sam tanked at first. They tried to give her to Sonny for Mo's ego and that was a disaster. Then they sort of retrofitted the old dynamic of Jason and Brenda and made it into Jason and Sam (I know other people don't see their antagonistic early pairing that way, but I do and I always will). It was Instant Coffee but it was and is popular. I always found it to be a cheap substitute but I have no real problem with Sam on the show now, especially with the insufferable Steve gone and the character having changed a bit as opposed to simply being Jason's adoring lapdog. I hated her back in the day simply because she was Sominex.

The character sketch for Sam worked and was a great idea - intrepid treasure hunter, etc. They just never had any real interest in that. She became Jason's leather-jacketed gun moll and that's what she stayed. She's not that far removed now, but with both Guza and Burton gone and Jason having been gone for years, there is a level of disengagement from that whole scene and Sam has become a bit more of a whole person, as much as soap women these days can be.

Edited May 4, 2016 by jsbt

[tvgoddess]

Quote

Do really think Sam was popular off the bat?

I wouldn't know, I wasn't anywhere near this show back then.

[Oracle42]

I think she was a flop initially but I think it's also been a long time since that was true.

They definitely tried to sub Sam in for Brenda with Jax, Sonny and Jason but the dynamic actually worked with Jason because he was never in love with Brenda so she got to be a character in her own right instead of a Brenda place-holder. 

 While I think the early antagonism was inspired by Jason/Brenda, I think the development of their relationship owed more to a Guza/mob version of Robert/Holly 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Oracle42

[Chairperson Meow]

I still don't get why they didn't bring her on as Kevin's daughter, Livvie.   Instant tie to the canvas, no icky Sonny story.  KeMo was awesome as Livvie.  I remember trying to watch her as Sam and hating it.  So, yeah, I'd say Sam was a flop.  Also, Alexis's sister Kristina and Jax's out of nowhere wife were flops for me.   

[jsbt]

They didn't give a shit about Kevin or Lucy, and wanted to create someone new.