These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm laughing so hard at Mary being the ultimate Mom. 

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there has to be a reason that so-called sizzle reel (still trying to figure that one out) ends with Dean's voiceover saying 'what if we really could change things?'.  And then Jensen's talk about how Michael might be around longer than we think. I feel like Dean is somehow going to deal/bargain with/use Michael (and vice versa) to actually help them/the world.

That tweet thread also includes this:

A) Ultimate mom? OMFG. and B) people wonder why Dean fans feel resentful.

 

5 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I really like this idea. Dean has always had that unique ability to persuade higher beings to come around and see things his way.  Regardless, there should definitely be a followup to the Michael possession. Gathering followers and purifying the world had better not be dropped like a hot potato after the initial threat is over. Imagine if one of those followers ran into Dean later on! Possibilities are, as always, endless.

Ah, that tweet. The good ol' "put Dean in his place for no reason other than it's apparently funny and empowering for another character."

I'm going to be really bummed if Michael is out of Dean by the third episode and no amount of flashbacks will make up for it, but if it happens, I like the idea that Dean might have bargained his way out way better than that stupid egg.

And don't even get me started on the Ice Queen driving the Impala. I don't have a barf bowl big enough to handle that nonsense.

[catrox14]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:31 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Ugh!  Because flashbacks worked so well for Lost. 

See, now I thought flashbacks suited LOST 100%. I can't imagine that show told in a linear fashion.  They had enough mystery surrounding the Lostaways to tell it that way. 

There are no real mysteries in SPN anymore IMO.  Michael's Christian Keyes vessel story might be okay.  Even a flashback to Dean saying yes and a potential fight with Cas about not doing it would be fine. 

What I don't want is flashbacks of Michael!Dean and ALL the people he visits.  I would rather we see who he visits in the present. When does Michael!Dean decide to visit Sam and find out what Sam wants? Or Cas? I would be interested in seeing those things but not in flashback.

That said, it MIGHT and it's a big MIGHT work if we see that after Michael possessed Dean he immediately wanted to know what Cas wanted. I don't know why he didn't seek to find out what Sam wanted before flitting away unless it was Dean compelling him to leave Sam and Jack alone, akin to what @gonzosgirrl was suggesting.

Quote

And then Jensen's talk about how Michael might be around longer than we think. I feel like Dean is somehow going to deal/bargain with/use Michael (and vice versa) to

Edited July 25, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, it MIGHT and it's a big MIGHT work if we see that after Michael possessed Dean he immediately wanted to know what Cas wanted. I don't know why he didn't seek to find out what Sam wanted before flitting away unless it was Dean compelling him to leave Sam and Jack alone, akin to what @gonzosgirrl was suggesting.

I was thinking more along the lines of Michael flitting off immediately being the betrayal/shock that Dean was reacting to with the "we had a deal" thing, opposed to any shock that Michael was breaking a deal to vacate immediately. And that it was Michael thanking Dean (internally and externally) for the suit before taking off. Further, Dean not fighting him right after that was due to a bargain and Dean being okay with him walking away from Sam/Jack rather than trying to hurt/kill them. In which case Sam doesn't know that Dean's kinda/sorta staying of his own free will, but maybe he gets a chance to communicate that to him later (thus the voiceover in the 'sizzle reel'). Or it's all just me trying to find a way to be excited about this arc in spite of Dabb/BuckLemming/Singer kicking the hope right out of me.

Edited July 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
clarifying the 'he's.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I just can't wrap my head around Sam and co. finding, trapping, and expelling the most powerful living being on Earth by episode 2. Whatever they do, it would feel laughably contrived and rushed, not to mention make Michael look like a chump for getting fucked with that easily. 

How Demon!Dean got trapped was equally easy and lame so it`s not beyond the show.  

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There are no real mysteries in SPN anymore IMO.  Michael's Christian Keyes vessel story might be okay.  Even a flashback to Dean saying yes and a potential fight with Cas about not doing it would be fine. 

Exactly.  Dabb and co. talked freely at comic con that Michael's mission is to recruit an army, and that's he's been traveling the world looking for people.  What exactly are the flashbacks going to reveal that we dont' already know?  I have no faith in Dabb to come up with anythign other then Michael killed people and Dean feels guilty about it. 

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When does Michael!Dean decide to visit Sam and find out what Sam wants? Or Cas? I would be interested in seeing those things but not in flashback.

If the show does this than I want Michael to call them out on past behaviors. 

If he asks Sam and Sam says he just wants his brother, then based on the aftermath of Hell and Purgatory I want Michael to say something like, "Do you really?  When he went to hell you replaced him with a demon.  And purgatory, you didn't even try.  Then you got a dog."

Because for Michael to just say he respects Sam's honesty for that would be bad writing. 

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

talked freely at comic con that Michael's mission is to recruit an army, and that's he's been traveling the world looking for people.  What exactly are the flashbacks going to reveal that we dont' already know?  I have no faith in Dabb to come up with anythign other then Michael killed people and Dean feels guilty about it. 

I have a likely false hope that Michael is not going to kill people this time.  He spoke about making mistakes in the AU and I wonder if those mistakes were killing humans.  I dunno.  His mission visiting humanity might also be trying to figure out which 5000 he wants to save, given the idiocy of that apparent part of his plan/retcon.  

I also have wondered if in the AU angels need permission to possess a vessel.  Like maybe Michael took  Christian's vessel without consent but here he must have Dean's. Dean also has that anti-possession tattoo that he would have had to have removed before letting Michael in.  So even if AU Michael tried it against his will that tat should stop it.

Or if consent was always necessary then I wonder if he just messes with their minds to get them to help him?

Edited July 25, 2018 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Exactly.  Dabb and co. talked freely at comic con that Michael's mission is to recruit an army, and that's he's been traveling the world looking for people.  What exactly are the flashbacks going to reveal that we dont' already know?  I have no faith in Dabb to come up with anythign other then Michael killed people and Dean feels guilty about it. 

If the show does this than I want Michael to call them out on past behaviors. 

If he asks Sam and Sam says he just wants his brother, then based on the aftermath of Hell and Purgatory I want Michael to say something like, "Do you really?  When he went to hell you replaced him with a demon.  And purgatory, you didn't even try.  Then you got a dog."

Because for Michael to just say he respects Sam's honesty for that would be bad writing. 

And especially if that clip is anything to go by as regards Michael's mindset concerning how what most humans say simply doesn't match up or reflect their wishes at all where it regards their actions-not in the deepest recesses of their minds where they definitely don't want any spotlight to shine, that is.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Because for Michael to just say he respects Sam's honesty for that would be bad writing. 

In your opinion. I honestly think there have been enough callbacks to those storylines. And irregardless of that, characters can change. Actually in my opinion they should change and evolve, so if Sam says that what he wants is to have Dean back, I don't see why that should be in question anymore. It was established in season 10 that what Sam wants is to be hunting with Dean and that he'll even risk the world to get his brother back. Nothing I have seen in seasons 10 through 13 contradicts that, so to imply that Sam was somehow insincere about that to me would contradict everything we were shown especially in season 10.

I'll stop there since the rest of what I would say would stray into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And especially if that clip is anything to go by as regards Michael's mindset concerning how what most humans say simply doesn't match up or reflect their wishes at all where it regards their actions-not in the deepest recesses of their minds where they definitely don't want any spotlight to shine, that is.

If this were the case, and the narrative implied something like this to be in question, I would give the show up for good. Because that would mean that everything Sam did in season 10 - all the months of searching and risking the world to get Dean back - was all just for show. Sam's actions in season 10 and beyond*** - in my opinion - do reflect exactly that what Sam wants is to be hunting with his brother, and if the show was to imply that it was all just an act by Sam, it would finally kill the show for me for good. I've already had enough with my favorite characters being ruined in The Walking Dead thank you very much.

*** Also in seasons 6 and 7.

Edited July 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ILoveReading]

The rumored episode title for episode 4 is Mint Condition. 

I feel like I've been lied to all over again.

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In your opinion. I honestly think there have been enough callbacks to those storylines. And irregardless of that, characters can change. Actually in my opinion they should change and evolve, so if Sam says that what he wants is to have Dean back, I don't see why that should be in question anymore. It was established in season 10 that what Sam wants is to be hunting with Dean and that he'll even risk the world to get his brother back. Nothing I have seen in seasons 10 through 13 contradicts that, so to imply that Sam was somehow insincere about that to me would contradict everything we were shown especially in season 10.

I'll stop there since the rest of what I would say would stray into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

If this were the case, and the narrative implied something like this to be in question, I would give the show up for good. Because that would mean that everything Sam did in season 10 - all the months of searching and risking the world to get Dean back - was all just for show. Sam's actions in season 10 and beyond*** - in my opinion - do reflect exactly that what Sam wants is to be hunting with his brother, and if the show was to imply that it was all just an act by Sam, it would finally kill the show for me for good. I've already had enough with my favorite characters being ruined in The Walking Dead thank you very much.

*** Also in seasons 6 and 7.

But this would be Michael's mindset-likely the Big Bad so, IMO, his words should mean little to those who believe that the brother bond is now stronger than it's ever been before.

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In your opinion. I honestly think there have been enough callbacks to those storylines. And irregardless of that, characters can change. Actually in my opinion they should change and evolve, so if Sam says that what he wants is to have Dean back, I don't see why that should be in question anymore. It was established in season 10 that what Sam wants is to be hunting with Dean and that he'll even risk the world to get his brother back. Nothing I have seen in seasons 10 through 13 contradicts that, so to imply that Sam was somehow insincere about that to me would contradict everything we were shown especially in season 10.

But does Dean believe this?  Dean has very low self worth, and if they were actually exploring Dean's trauma than its something they have to address is Dean's fear of abandonment.  It has to be in the back of Dean's mind that Sam might now decide not to search for him, especially since Sam now has Jack.  Dean might see himself as replaceable.   Michael would seek to exploit that.

It's also canon that the two time Dean came back from being away for a long period of time, Sam did resent him on some level.   What if Dean tries to step back in the leadership role (im nto talking about giving orders and Sam following meekly, there is more to leadership than that).  Is Sam going to be content to step back?   It's not a forgone conclusion that Sam would be more than okay with that.   It's a big part of Sam's personality that he likes to be in control.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

See, now I thought flashbacks suited

I think my issue with Lost was that the flashbacks didn't really lead anywhere.  And the fact that I wasted 5 years of my life when I could have been watching SUPERNATURAL!!!

[Myrelle]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But does Dean believe this?  Dean has very low self worth, and if they were actually exploring Dean's trauma than its something they have to address is Dean's fear of abandonment.  It has to be in the back of Dean's mind that Sam might now decide not to search for him, especially since Sam now has Jack.  Dean might see himself as replaceable.   Michael would seek to exploit that.

And then  there's this.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think my issue with Lost was that the flashbacks didn't really lead anywhere.  And the fact that I wasted 5 years of my life when I could have been watching SUPERNATURAL!!!

HA! to the bold.

I don't agree the flashbacks went nowhere.  They informed the whole story. But this isn't the LOST thread and I have no hope that SPN can remotely do a modicum of the cleverness of the flashbacks and even flashsideways of LOST. 

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The rumored episode title for episode 4 is Mint Condition. 

I feel like I've been lied to all over again.

Hey now! If they wait until the last scene of ep 4, like they did with Cas in 13.3, to reveal that Dean is rescued from Michael, then they can say "Hey, it was longer than demon!Dean! And then they will tell the rest in lame flashbacks so they can say it went longer.  Sigh. 

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If this were the case, and the narrative implied something like this to be in question, I would give the show up for good. Because that would mean that everything Sam did in season 10 - all the months of searching and risking the world to get Dean back - was all just for show. Sam's actions in season 10 and beyond*** - in my opinion - do reflect exactly that what Sam wants is to be hunting with his brother, and if the show was to imply that it was all just an act by Sam, i

To me that wouldn't necessarily mean that Sam had been putting on an act though.  Sam has waffled since the beginning of the show about hunting and being back in the Impala with Dean.  Maybe in his heart of hearts, that feeling never went away but he felt a sense of duty to Dean more than wanting that life. He said he wouldn't hunt without Dean in s10, so I can see that maybe he has his own real internal challenge about continuing without him. 

 So now, if Sam is trying to lead the AU hunters, maybe he'll find out that his leadership issues were never about not being a leader, or feeling like he's in the shadow of Dean, but that maybe leading is not what he wants and he'd rather teach them or something else. He's got the AU people who may be diametrically opposed to the mission of saving Dean from the entity that destroyed their world that Dean let in.  They really have no compelling reason to help him and how can he lead a group who is in direct opposition to him? 

I have to say, I won't be unhappy if Sam finds out that trying to lead those who don't respect his authority or his mission, is a lot harder than it seems. He'll learn more about leading in that case than taking on a group that is already on the basic same page.  Cas and Jack will have to certainly support him to get the rest to help.

Unless, of course, they gloss over that challenge and have the time jump be that Sam has already won them over and how he is just coordinating the group.  But I hope they don't. 

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say, I won't be unhappy if Sam finds out that trying to lead those who don't respect his authority or his mission, is a lot harder than it seems. He'll learn more about leading in that case than taking on a group that is already on the basic same page.  Cas and Jack will have to certainly support him to get the rest to help.

If they don't have them immediately fall under Sam's spell the same way the hunters, including freaking Walt and Roy did in the S12 finally, I'll eat my shirt.

I figure Sam will speechify, Not!Bobby will reluctantly endorse him because he now wuvs mommy dearest, and the rest of them will fall in line behind General Winchester.

*the rest of them except for probably Maggie, who will have secretly bonded with part of Lucifer's soul and is now a horcrux, covertly undermining the Winchesters until such time as Voldemort Lucifer is strong enough to resurface.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

until such time as Voldemort Lucifer is strong enough to resurface.

Singer, Buckner and Ross-Lemming all refused to say that Lucifer was dead dead.  Dabb was the only one.   But the Nepotism Duo love writing Lucifer, and Singer loves Lucifer so its three against one.

Lucifer is coming back.

[Aeryn13]

I just watched another roundtable with BuckLemming, well the Lemming part, and she was asked if Mary would now bond with Sam (implication: now that Dean is out of the way because yeah, Dean was really the obstacle in that equation) and Lemming pretty much said that nope, Mary would be too busy "digging on Bobby". Well, AU!Bobby, prepare to be lambasted into the next century for that in Season 15, in some biased supernatural shrink`s office. 

But really, how bad are they gonna make Mary look this year? Her priority is pretty much fucking everybody before her own children. (I realize that sounds a tad dirty but you all know what I mean, right?) 

Quote

Singer, Buckner and Ross-Lemming all refused to say that Lucifer was dead dead.  Dabb was the only one.   But the Nepotism Duo love writing Lucifer, and Singer loves Lucifer so its three against one.

Lucifer is coming back.

It was already spoiled that "the actor`s story will not end, even if Lucifer`s has". So the Nick-vessel is back. Dabb specifically said Lucifer was in the Empty. He died with Nephilim grace in him. Nephilim grace was strong enough to wake up Cas in the Empty. They might have Mark Pellegrino play the Empty-Keeper for a bit, to then build up to either that character of Lucifer returning from there.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Man I saw that Kaia is coming back in a WS episode? Look, I'm sorry the show didn't work out but it didn't. And I don't want it taking up precious episode time in a shortened
SUPERNATURAL season. Jody has been around a while and same with Donna so I like an occasional episode where they are helping the boys out. But what's the point of Kaia coming back? Let it go. 

My vent is now over. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Man I saw that Kaia is coming back in a WS episode? Look, I'm sorry the show didn't work out but it didn't. And I don't want it taking up precious episode time in a shortened
SUPERNATURAL season. Jody has been around a while and same with Donna so I like an occasional episode where they are helping the boys out. But what's the point of Kaia coming back? Let it go. 

My vent is now over. 

And this being the show it is, they are probably bringing her back to kill her, since she is AU!Kaia and no longer needed for the WS spinoff. I hadn't heard they were actually doing a WS episode though - wtf in an already shortened season? Do not want.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But really, how bad are they gonna make Mary look this year? Her priority is pretty much fucking everybody before her own children. (I realize that sounds a tad dirty but you all know what I mean, right?) 

If Michael encounters Mary I really want him to call her out on this.

[BabySpinach]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And this being the show it is, they are probably bringing her back to kill her, since she is AU!Kaia and no longer needed for the WS spinoff. I hadn't heard they were actually doing a WS episode though - wtf in an already shortened season? Do not want.

Especially if it's only two episodes before we're getting all the pet side characters shoved down our throats. Donna and Jody are the only ones of that lot I'm remotely invested in, and even they can afford to wait for their moment to shine later on in the season. If Michael!Dean ends in episode 2 and we're immediately launched into the Super Tween Wonders show, I'm going to be pretty damn bitter, flashbacks or otherwise.

ETA: But TPTB did say that every episode this season would have some bearing on the mytharc, so as usual, I'm very confused about how it's going to play out. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by BabySpinach

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Especially if it's only two episodes before we're getting all the pet side characters shoved down our throats. Donna and Jody are the only ones of that lot I'm remotely invested in, and even they can afford to wait for their moment to shine later on in the season. If Michael!Dean ends in episode 2 and we're immediately launched into the Super Tween Wonders show, I'm going to be pretty damn bitter, flashbacks or otherwise.

Or worse, Clair-Sue is the one to take down Michael.

[Bobcatkitten]

ETA: But TPTB did say that every episode this season would have some bearing on the mytharc, so as usual, I'm very confused about how it's going to play out. 

 

So no MOTW eps? Those are my favorite.

[Aeryn13]

More that the mytharc would play a part in the MOTW. They did this in Season 4 with the 66 seals breaking. Some eps could qualify as arc and MOTW at the same time.

Apparently they are attempting this again.

[Res]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

More that the mytharc would play a part in the MOTW. They did this in Season 4 with the 66 seals breaking. Some eps could qualify as arc and MOTW at the same time.

Apparently they are attempting this again.

"Attempting" being the key word here. I have absolutely NO confidence they will pull it off. 

I also wouldn't put it past them to revise WS and resubmit it for next year with any suggestions that they received from the network heads. Dead means nothing to these writers in regards for their pet projects.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Res

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But this would be Michael's mindset-likely the Big Bad so, IMO, his words should mean little to those who believe that the brother bond is now stronger than it's ever been before.

For me, it all depends on the context I think. If this was brought up and "Sam says what the hell are you talking about?" and looks completely baffled Michael would even think such a thing, because he's obviously wrong, then I agree. If the context was given that Sam looks guilty, embarrassed, or like maybe he's considering that Michael might be right, then that's an entirely different thing. Basically it's the difference between the temptation of Sam by Hell Memory Sam (end of season 6) and Sam saying (paraphrase) "no, I have to do this (for Dean)" and whatever that was that happened in the first episode of season 8 when Sam shrugged his shoulders and said "meh."

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But does Dean believe this?  Dean has very low self worth, and if they were actually exploring Dean's trauma than its something they have to address is Dean's fear of abandonment. 

I don't know if Dean believes this, but I really don't know how Sam can fix this or even address this. If after season 10 and Sam going all over hell's half acre to find Dean and then declaring that he would risk the darkness again to get Dean back wasn't enough of an indication for Dean that Sam wants to be with Dean, I'm not sure what else Sam could do myself. Maybe if somehow Dean found out about Sam taking on his hell memories so that he could fight by Dean's side that might help, but I'm not thinking that there would be any way for that to come up since no one else was there to witness it.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It's also canon that the two time Dean came back from being away for a long period of time, Sam did resent him on some level.   What if Dean tries to step back in the leadership role (im nto talking about giving orders and Sam following meekly, there is more to leadership than that).  Is Sam going to be content to step back?   It's not a forgone conclusion that Sam would be more than okay with that.   It's a big part of Sam's personality that he likes to be in control.

Actually I personally don't think it's that simple for Sam. I think that Sam doesn't like to be helpless or have no control, and he certainly doesn't like not being given the lowdown and/or consulted (I agree with that), but I don't actually think that Sam does like to be the leader. I thought that was shown pretty definitively in "All Hell... part 1." I actually part some of the anger towards Dean in season 4 was partly because Dean left Sam alone and now he (Sam) did have to take over... and then when Dean came back, Sam thought he had to do it, because he though Dean couldn't, and Sam would rather have had Dean to look up to and support rather than have to do this himself. "I just want my big brother back." So I saw the "resentment" as a reflection of something else - not Sam wanting to be the leader and now Dean was back.

I can't interpret what Carver wanted, because that made no sense to me, but that's what I saw in season 4... That's why this "Sam as leader" thing to me makes no sense and isn't even in character for Sam. At least in my opinion. I've never seen the "Sam wants to be in control" angle that many do. I actually have seen the opposite, and that Sam is most unhappy when Dean isn't there for him to support. And this even includes the "don't treat me like a little brother" stuff, because usually there he's talking about choices being made for him... which is a different kettle of fish and goes to no control.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

To me that wouldn't necessarily mean that Sam had been putting on an act though.  Sam has waffled since the beginning of the show about hunting and being back in the Impala with Dean.  Maybe in his heart of hearts, that feeling never went away but he felt a sense of duty to Dean more than wanting that life. He said he wouldn't hunt without Dean in s10, so I can see that maybe he has his own real internal challenge about continuing without him. 

Truthfully I don't much disagree with you here. Even though Sam seems to be mainly pro hunting in recent seasons ans for the most part he seems to be happy with that decision, I'm also seeing some moments when he realizes that it's also a coping mechanism. I saw part of an episode from early season 12 today on TNT where Sam was pretty much conveying this. He basically said that he thought Mary was having a rough time and that her wanting to hunt might be a coping mechanism, and that he knew this from (paraphrase) "years of personal experience." So I don't disagree with you here on that really. As long as it wasn't painted as some abrupt turn around and attitude change - like in season 8, where all of a sudden I'm supposed to think Sam doesn't think that hunting is doing something worthy (WTF?) - then I could see this.

My comment was to what I saw in what I quoted - and if I interpreted it incorrectly, I apologize - as a specific inference that Sam wouldn't want Dean back specifically. The hunting part in my answer was secondary (because that was part of the conversation he had with Charlie while explaining why he wanted to save Dean from the mark.) I was mainly saying that if the implication would be if MichaelDean asked Sam what he wanted, and Sam said "I want Dean back" that I would want that to be genuine. If the show then had Michael questioning Sam's motives - much like he did with the guy in the spoiler clip - with "why are you saying you want Dean back when previously you just replaced him with a demon and then a woman and a dog," and Sam acted anything other than "Hell, yes, I want Dean back. Did I stutter?" in attitude after all we saw Sam do in season 10 to get Dean back... that I would consider that to be implying that Sam had been putting on an act. Or at the very least making all of that in season 10 pointless. Mostly because what I saw Sam do in season 10 in regards to looking for and trying to save Dean from the mark seemed genuine - much like everything he did in "Mystery Spot" and in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" - so having Michael ask Sam "do you really want to have Dean back?" and have Sam act guilty or questioning or whatever - to me - would be cheapening everything we saw in season 10.

Sure, it would be angsty and such for Dean in Michael to see this and once again wonder "will Sam leave me, because he doesn't really want me in his life and he's only doing this out of some sense of obligation," but it would piss me off for the writers to use such cheap manipulation and ruin / cheapen previous seasons and I would have to quit the show for a while.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to get across. Maybe?

[Bobcatkitten]

A thought for the day - how are they going to say Lucifer is dead-dead (yay) but somehow his vessel is alive for Mark P to come back to the show? Stretching the bounds of my willing suspension of disbelief. 

[Aeryn13]

They can explain everything with Nephilim grace, be it a) that suddenly the human Nick-vessel is alive (and a viable candidate for storing Michael once the Dean!Michael story is finished or b) exposit that Lucifer came awake in the Empty due to Nephilim grace, annoyed the Empty-Keeper too much and that guy came back in a bona-fide Lucifer-Mark-Pellegrino suit because he has had it with those beings interrupting his sleep. It`s a story they kind weirdly teased with Cas during Season 13 but ultimatily didn`t go with so they might repurpose it for MP.

Actually, they could do both, one after the other. So lets say, MP plays Michael and then after he is defeated, he plays the Empty-Keeper.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

A thought for the day - how are they going to say Lucifer is dead-dead (yay) but somehow his vessel is alive for Mark P to come back to the show? Stretching the bounds of my willing suspension of disbelief. 

I think Dabb and Singer are lying liars who lie.

Since Crowley kept the Nicksuit and messed around with it to make sure Lucifer was always stuck in the meatsuit, Lucifer shouldn't even be dead. And I don't think he is.  It was only glowly golden light that left him, which should have been Jack's grace. Every other archangel had their white light leave them to indicate their death, back when death actually meant something.

Barring them lying, I think the Nicksuit was also made indestructible so it can be possessed by thus keeping it as a vessel and I bet they use it for Mark P to play literally any other character.  And I think he'll play Gabriel, who I think is also not necessarily dead or Cage!Michael.  Or in a huge swerve that would literally make me throw things at the TV,  John.

Why Pellegrino has such status in the show is ridiculous.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Or in a huge swerve that would literally make me throw things at the TV,  John.

I think whenever the Series Finale comes around, they will try their damnedest to bring in JDM as John. Until then, I could see flashbacks with young John if the need ever arises but not contemporary John played by another actor.  

[ILoveReading]

I don't believe for one minute that Lucifer is dead. 

Dabb was the only one saying Lucifer was dead dead.    Singer, Buckner and Lemming all went on and on about how great Pellegrino is and Lemming things he's misunderstood and redeemable, and Buckner loves writing for him.   Singer said no one really dies and the he's in the empty and the empty would come into play. 

It's 3 against 1.  Lucifer is coming back.

[Aeryn13]

I could actually live with it if he came back as the Empty-Keeper. At least that is a largely still unexplored character in terms of motivation, origin etc. If they want Pellegrino to play him, fine, it`s not like the guy is a bad actor. But Lucifer should be done with.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I could actually live with it if he came back as the Empty-Keeper. At least that is a largely still unexplored character in terms of motivation, origin etc. If they want Pellegrino to play him, fine, it`s not like the guy is a bad actor. But Lucifer should be done with.

Personally I kind of resent them twisting themselves into pretzels to write for this guy when they leave so much on the table for the great lead they have. 

And don't get me started on letting the other, better, Mark go. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t disagree but I`d take a supernatural ice-cream truck driver before I`d take Lucifer coming back. I`m talking in degrees of badness here, what I can stomach and what I can`t. Which is not what speculating about a show should be like but it`s what I have to work with here.

[trxr4kids]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m talking in degrees of badness here, what I can stomach and what I can`t. Which is not what speculating about a show should be like but it`s what I have to work with here.

Truer words, couldn't agree more, etc. 

Wasn't it hinted at that they'd bring back the character Nick and not just some random character possessing the Nicksuit? 

If they do that I'm sure we'll get bonding and flashback moments with Sam and teaching moments with Dean post possession leading to more self loathing reinforced by every other character and their mother, including Dean's own.

[Lemuria]

6 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

 

If they do that I'm sure we'll get bonding and flashback moments with Sam and teaching moments with Dean post possession leading to more self loathing reinforced by every other character and their mother, including Dean's own.

Nah, the "ultimate mom" will be busy driving the Impala and dating her new squeeze. One of the PTB, I can't remember which one, was asked  if now that it's just Sam and Mary, she would be bonding with Sam (apparently under the impression that somehow, up to now, Mary has actually been bonding with Dean. I really wish I had been watching the series that person had been watching! ?).

 The answer basically was "Nope. She's going to be digging Bobby." ( And I think someone told me that they saw a picture from the set that showed the two of them dressed up.). If this is, in fact, what happens--well, I'd have to start going into negative numbers in rating her as a mom since I've already hit zero!  One of her sons has been possessed by the Archangel Michael, the being that already destroyed one earth, but hey, why don't we try out that new restaurant down the road?

Feh. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Lemuria

[gonzosgirrl]

Jesus #%×/$! They actually confirmed that? Ugh. Mary goes down in history as the most thoroughly ruined,  once beloved character on television. IMO of course. Congratulations, Dabb. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jesus #%×/$! They actually confirmed that? Ugh. Mary goes down in history as the most thoroughly ruined,  once beloved character on television. IMO of course.

Heh. I'd agree with you if I had cared more about Mary before, but for me (and I realize miles will vary here) she wasn't developed enough to begin with (pre-season 12) for that.

Presently, for me, it's going to take a lot to dethrone the ruining of Carl (The Walking Dead) who, while not beloved by everyone, was beloved by me and had 6+ seasons of character development that was thrown out the window so that a character who should be dead many times over could be justified in being allowed to live. For me, nothing they could do with Mary could top that, because she is just a supporting character, not the presumed future of the show (as Carl was presumed to be before they ruined his character and then killed him ...stupidly at that.)

Going to stop now before I get too off topic, but if anyone wants to compare character destruction, I'd be willing to take it to the show comparison thread.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. I'd agree with you if I had cared more about Mary before, but for me (and I realize miles will vary here) she wasn't developed enough to begin with (pre-season 12) for that.

 

@AwesomO4000 I'm going to reply in the Mary thread.

[devlin]

Every man and his dog is talking about sam becoming this great leader but who is he going to be leading and why. Sam and the other worlders have conflicting objectives with  Michael!dean so I can’t see them be willing to follow him in that scenario. So in what situation is he going to be leading?

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, devlin said:

Every man and his dog is talking about sam becoming this great leader but who is he going to be leading and why. Sam and the other worlders have conflicting objectives with  Michael!dean so I can’t see them be willing to follow him in that scenario. So in what situation is he going to be leading?

He's going to win the AU'ers over to his side with his patented puppy-dog eyes and a poignant speech.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

Every man and his dog is talking about sam becoming this great leader but who is he going to be leading and why. Sam and the other worlders have conflicting objectives with  Michael!dean so I can’t see them be willing to follow him in that scenario.

Did it really make any kind of sense in S12 for Sam to lead a hunter brigade against the BMoL? Sam, who was captured and tortured but decided to join for gadgets.  Sam, who conveniently forgot that not all monsters are evil.  The only thing Sam did that season that made sense ( in my least favorable opinion of him) was manipulate Dean into going along with him.

If the PTB want Sam to lead the AU* people it'll happen regardless of how nonsensical or infuriating it is to some viewers.

* I'm not even sure why we're still using the terms AU or OW considering the show doesn't distinguish the characters.

Edited August 2, 2018 by trxr4kids
A and O

[DeeDee79]

56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He's going to win the AU'ers over to his side with his patented puppy-dog eyes and a poignant speech.

Blech. Didn't we already get that at the end of season 12?

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Didn't we already get that at the end of season 12?

Why yes, we did but again they don't care IMO.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Why yes, we did but again they don't care IMO.

It certainly doesn't seem like it, does it? *sigh* :(

[Aeryn13]

That cements for me that this thing at the end of Season 12 WAS supposed to play into a big theme of Leader!Sam but the writers couldn`t come up with the right circumstances for it. Now the AU folk are around, they can get their wish. 

Now I do understand the need for someone to give them the headsup on this world but they have been fighting as units in a guerilla war so the idea that they need to be taught hunting/tactics and all that is pretty silly. They might not have experience with the day-to-day in our world but their experience as soldiers/warriors outclasses any humans from this Earth.

And since they don`t seem to want to leave any way, why are they living in the bunker and being "wrangled" by Sam? In AU-world, fighting was a necessity of survival. In this world, they could go off and lead normal lives or at least rest a bit if they so desired. Besides, isn`t Bobby their de-facto leader? Guess Mary is considered useless now that she doesn`t come with a Nephilim in tow 

The whole construct is one of convenience to play with the General Sam Winchester trope. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The whole construct is one of convenience to play with the General Sam Winchester trope.

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread to be on the safe side.