These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Res]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is the kind of thing that makes me bitter.  Dean is more than a brother. 

http://tvline.com/2018/05/02/lucifer-season-3-spoilers-deaths/

Not according to Singer and Dabb. You're lucky they even say that about Dean. Most of the time it's even more uncomplimentary.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just don't understand where Sam's sudden fear of Lucifer is coming from.  He didn't fear him that much when they confronted him in the hotel room with Sister Jo.  He didn't cower away when it came to saving him from Amara's torture two years ago, or when he actually went into the makeshift cage with him.  His current reaction to him just seems completely manufactured.  I'm just so fucking done with that entire storyline, but they just refuse to let it go.  

This is why I can't get all excited about the prospect of Dean/Michael.  I simply do not care about Michael.  I'm praying that Dean becomes someone completely unexpected, but I have very little faith in the writers to be able to surprise us.  Are the majority of fans really that interested in the angel bullshit?  I love Cas, but he's the only angel I need to see, going forward.

Sam she'd a man tear when confronted with Lucifer in the holding cell and has made at least one bitchfaces whenever he saw him. Yes the writing failed him. But this is also whwte rhe diffwrence in Jensen and Jared's acting stykes come into play. Jensen decides things to change how he plays Dean to reflect Dean's past so we see the fact the character went to Purgatory or hell in his body and face. Jared plays exactly what is in the script.

Not bashing...just my opinion. 

Jensen's approach has sustained Deangirks,over the years.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, to the person asking the question Dean is obviously just an object with which to worship Sam. So, a stan basically. 

The answer bugs me way more. Is it just gonna be an emo reaction or something more? In this instance I pray it is just emo. I do not want whatever Dean does to be all about big brother reactions. Give me a break. 

And what kind of harrowing and terrifying thing can it be anyway? We all know Lucifer is gonna spend time with Jack while Sam hop-skips with the AU crowd in episode 22. So it`s not possession. Is it supposed to be that monster-thingie? 

Hopefully, this will be like the Speight interview where I wondered what the hell he was going on about with the great bonding of Sam and Gabe in last episode. Because that didn`t happen. 

This may the answer as to what triggers Dean to his "impulsive" self sacrifice.  And loss of family or threat of loss of family, specifically Sam, is the usually trigger.  This doesn't mean he won't also be thinking of works saving ramifications as well too.  He usually kills two birds with one reckless move...

But Sam .mortally wounded and/or dead sounds about right...

Edited May 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam she'd a man tear when confronted with Lucifer in the holding cell and has made at least one bitchfaces whenever he saw him. Yes the writing failed him. But this is also whwte rhe diffwrence in Jensen and Jared's acting stykes come into play. Jensen decides things to change how he plays Dean to reflect Dean's past so we see the fact the character went to Purgatory or hell in his body and face. Jared plays exactly what is in the script.

Not bashing...just my opinion. 

Jensen's approach has sustained Deangirks,over the years.

 

The lack of credibility of the Lucifer/Sam storyline has nothing to do with Jared's acting at all.

 

The show made it very clear that Sam's traumatic experience in the cage was basically water under the bridge by severing Lucifer's connection to Sam in season 11, making them act like buddies in that one BuckLeming episode and just never mentioning it at all until the first Rowena episode this season. Also introducing needless details we never heard of like the "true face" nonsense does not help at all.

 

The other half of the problem is the portayal of Lucifer himself. Sorry to have to repeat myself, but he is a whiny, washed-up hack and we have to witness his oh so funny scenes way too often. Doesn't exactly scream "I was Sam's torturer for hundreds of years", does it ?

 

If Dean's time in hell or purgatory had been made into a joke - repeatedly, I can assure you all the "superior Jensen acting" in the world wouldn't have done anything to make things seem believably serious again.

Edited May 3, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Myrelle]

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, to the person asking the question Dean is obviously just an object with which to worship Sam. So, a stan basically. 

The answer bugs me way more. Is it just gonna be an emo reaction or something more? In this instance I pray it is just emo. I do not want whatever Dean does to be all about big brother reactions. Give me a break. 

And what kind of harrowing and terrifying thing can it be anyway? We all know Lucifer is gonna spend time with Jack while Sam hop-skips with the AU crowd in episode 22. So it`s not possession. Is it supposed to be that monster-thingie? 

Hopefully, this will be like the Speight interview where I wondered what the hell he was going on about with the great bonding of Sam and Gabe in last episode. Because that didn`t happen. 

I'm so nervous about this in tonight's episode now. I'm getting wine again.

Two bottles.

Again.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I'm so nervous about this in tonight's episode now. I'm getting wine again.

Two bottles.

Again.

I saw some tweets from someone who say the ep and they asked if there was any Dean moments and she said something about the most growth and how there was one moment where she was proud of him.

She's primarily a Sam and Cas fan so I'm guessing its Dean's annual, "Sam is a big boy" lesson.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This may the answer as to what triggers Dean to his "impulsive" self sacrifice.  And loss of family or threat of loss of family, specifically Sam, is the usually trigger.  This doesn't mean he won't also be thinking of works saving ramifications as well too. 

That honestly doesn`t help me much. "Oh well, he probably thought about about the world, too", but making his main reason pathetic and selfish. I gotta say the set-up so far is already the storyline for me, before it even really materializes. And everything was tailor-made for something much, much better. 

Dreading tonight`s episode now after reading some reaction teases. I expected it to not be good because of Berens but everyone is acting like some "twists" and big stuff are happening already. And that can`t be a good thing here.

[ILoveReading]

https://fangirlingtodeath513.tumblr.com/post/173528073524/tweets-from-natalie-fisher-regarding-13x21

Give the spoiler about protective Dean, I'm guessing the "Dean moment" is actually him having a revelation about Sam

Edited May 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

This one sounds Red Meat bad.

[Aeryn13]

I think you are right. It`s not as if we didn`t get a dozen previous scenes where he waxed poetic on how great Sam was. So if it`s more "he can handle everything", what would be the point? Especially since he somehow becomes a different character anyway by Season`s end. I mean, for that alone it won`t be a complete redo of 5.22.

And powers-wise, the strongest they have on their side is still Jack. He is naive and overconfident but he brings the juice so far. They need to show him going up against AU!Michael and legit lose to show why he isn`t an option.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And powers-wise, the strongest they have on their side is still Jack. He is naive and overconfident but he brings the juice so far. They need to show him going up against AU!Michael and legit lose to show why he isn`t an option.

Or they'll potentially show him or tease him as "going evil" - potentially making Sam wrong about Jack as a bonus - even temporarily, and that would take Jack off the table easily enough.

[Etoile]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And powers-wise, the strongest they have on their side is still Jack. He is naive and overconfident but he brings the juice so far. They need to show him going up against AU!Michael and legit lose to show why he isn`t an option.

I hope so and I think this is the direction the show is going to go! Not that it will make Jack evil, only misguided but at least, hopefully,  it will make Jack a little bit more interesting than the blandness he's shown so far. And I completely disagree it would make Sam look wrong but maybe it could make Sam reconsider idetifying with a character to the point he forgets completely the context of that character to change it with his own. Give him some much needed character growth that they band around for Dean when he does things he's done many times before. /sighs

[Aeryn13]

There is a 0.00001 % chance of them making the nougat baby even go slightly dark. I do not see it happening at all.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is a 0.00001 % chance of them making the nougat baby even go slightly dark. I do not see it happening at all.

He might go off white for 5 or 10 minutes but I don't see him going evil or siding with Lucifer at all.

[Etoile]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is a 0.00001 % chance of them making the nougat baby even go slightly dark. I do not see it happening at all.

He might go off white for 5 or 10 minutes but I don't see him going evil or siding with Lucifer at all.

They are too in love with their precious powerful character so I agree that the most it will happen will be some bland angst à la Tombstone. 

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is a 0.00001 % chance of them making the nougat baby even go slightly dark. I do not see it happening at all.

I like nougat baby so much better than cinnamon roll. Cinnamon has some bite and can be sweet or savoury, depending on the usage. Nougat is just straight-up sugar that gets stuck in your teeth. Yep, Nougat Baby it is. :)

It honestly boggles my mind that they believe misguided Big Brother Dean and put-upon Little Brother Sam is what the show needs 13 seasons in. Sigh.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I like nougat baby so much better than cinnamon roll. Cinnamon has some bite and can be sweet or savoury, depending on the usage. Nougat is just straight-up sugar that gets stuck in your teeth. Yep, Nougat Baby it is. :)

It honestly boggles my mind that they believe misguided Big Brother Dean and put-upon Little Brother Sam is what the show needs 13 seasons in. Sigh.

HA! I'm going with Nougat Baby, too. :-D

And ditto to the bolded part.

[catrox14]

And given Jack likes Nougat it's the best choice.

[ILoveReading]

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-season-13-finale-samantha-smith-interview/

Putting this here in case anyone what to discuss it.

It gets off to a very bad start.  "Sam Winchester and his merry band of hunters." 

Its once again this kind of things that leaves me bitter. Just once I'd like to see the show acknowledge Dean's leadership abilities.

"Some growth"

My money is that its another after school special for Dean. 

dynamics are explored,

"Dean you have to treat me like an adult. "

Fates are changed

I hope this is about the character Jensen is going to play.

As happy as Mary is going to be to see her boys, there is a large part of her that doesn’t want them there.

Shocking.

[Reganne]

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-season-13-finale-samantha-smith-interview/

Putting this here in case anyone what to discuss it.

It gets off to a very bad start.  "Sam Winchester and his merry band of hunters." 

Its once again this kind of things that leaves me bitter. Just once I'd like to see the show acknowledge Dean's leadership abilities.

This is just a write up on some site.  Didn't Mark Shepard once say that Crowley was more drawn to Dean because he was more of a leader?  

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

This is just a write up on some site.  Didn't Mark Shepard once say that Crowley was more drawn to Dean because he was more of a leader?  

She's seen the episode, there must be a reason she phrased it that way.

It's also written by Berens who wrote We Happy Few

Edited May 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

She's seen the episode, there must be a reason she phrased it that way.

It's also written by Berens who wrote We Happy Few

TBH, Dean's been leading and pulling most of the weight this season, so I wouldn't mind Sam doing a little something other than getting hit over the head/knocked unconscious.  Besides, isn't this episode suppose to be more Sam focused and the last episode focused more on Dean?  

[ILoveReading]

44 minutes ago, Reganne said:

TBH, Dean's been leading and pulling most of the weight this season, so I wouldn't mind Sam doing a little something other than getting hit over the head/knocked unconscious.  Besides, isn't this episode suppose to be more Sam focused and the last episode focused more on Dean?  

Doesn't mean they won't pull a 180 and try to make it like Dean was holding Sam back.

 

I'm thinking Red Meat part 2.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ILoveReading
edited becasue post was too Sam vs Dean.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-season-13-finale-samantha-smith-interview/

Putting this here in case anyone what to discuss it.

It gets off to a very bad start.  "Sam Winchester and his merry band of hunters." 

Its once again this kind of things that leaves me bitter. Just once I'd like to see the show acknowledge Dean's leadership abilities.

"Some growth"

My money is that its another after school special for Dean. 

dynamics are explored,

"Dean you have to treat me like an adult. "

Fates are changed

I hope this is about the character Jensen is going to play.

As happy as Mary is going to be to see her boys, there is a large part of her that doesn’t want them there.

Shocking.

Oy. to almost all of that.

I'm saying that some growth will equal Dean telling Sam "You take the lead on this trip, Sammy. You've earned it and I'm proud of you."-just like last season at this time. 

[BoxManLocke]

Too bad there isn't a live commentary thread because this episode is driving nuts already holy shit

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Oy. to almost all of that.

I'm saying that some growth will equal Dean telling Sam "You take the lead on this trip, Sammy. You've earned it and I'm proud of you."-just like last season at this time. 

Sam took the lead against the BMOL because Dean WAS going to save Mary.

I would argue that  this time it reflects Dean's declining mental state.  He Also was not on his A,game when he was with Ketch either.   

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam took the lead against the BMOL because Dean WAS going to save Mary.

Sam took the lead against the BMOL because they shredded Dean's leg. Saving Mary was plan B at best because he forced out of the fight.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sam took the lead against the BMOL because they shredded Dean's leg. Saving Mary was plan B at best because he forced out of the fight.

Saving Mary was Dean's priority.

He was going to be the one to save her.

It was set up in the writing.

Just like they set up Dean and Ketch' as mirrors and antagonists. In a weird way Ketch felt he was competing with Dean for Mary's affections. 

They did a lot of very interesting things with the story and it was integral to Dean's arc that he save her because it ties so much into his origin story as a hero, his tragic  flaw, and leads into everything that is happening this season because losing her yet again triggered everything in maximum overdrive. 

Saving Mary was a very important arc for Dean.

And he risked his life to do so. 

They have actually put a great deal of thought into the character arcs for the three Winchesters.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Saving Mary was Dean's priority.

He was going to be the one to save her.

Plot contrivance writing. if the show had left Dean uninjured and  he still chose to save Mary then I might agree but they didn't so I don't. And I won't. I've discussed it in the ep thread and in all seasons so I won't belabor it here any further.

[catrox14]

Not gonna lie. Not thrilled that Dick Speight is directing ep 2 and ep 6 of next season. I don't like his directing style TBH. I don't think he gets the best from his actors and the "homages" are overdone. I thought the Sully ep was overwrought and if things had been underplayed I think it would have been better.  And I'm not really thrilled with knowing that they have to figure out what they are doing after this season's cliffhanger.  I know Jensen is being positive and he was also positive about demon!Dean arc too. And that turned out disappointing for the shortness of it.  

[belbar]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know Jensen is being positive and he was also positive about demon!Dean arc too. And that turned out disappointing for the shortness of it.  

Well in an interview he said that this was something in the same category or something similar, so ... Let's just hope that the pay off will be a little better.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not gonna lie. Not thrilled that Dick Speight is directing ep 2 and ep 6 of next season. I don't like his directing style TBH. I don't think he gets the best from his actors and the "homages" are overdone. I thought the Sully ep was overwrought and if things had been underplayed I think it would have been better.  And I'm not really thrilled with knowing that they have to figure out what they are doing after this season's cliffhanger.  I know Jensen is being positive and he was also positive about demon!Dean arc too. And that turned out disappointing for the shortness of it.  

2 and  6 seem kind of close together.   So at least we get them over with quickly.  He usually directs one in the first half and one in the second.  That fact that he's directing two eps so close to each other makes me wonder again if its a shortened season.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, belbar said:

Well in an interview he said that this was something in the same category or something similar, so ... Let's just hope that the pay off will be a little better.

I just don't think it will. I think Jensen is doing what he always does and tries to spin it as positively as he can. 

[trxr4kids]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And I'm not really thrilled with knowing that they have to figure out what they are doing after this season's cliffhanger.

I actually despise the way TPTB, most notably Singer, seem blase at best, proud of at worst about that being a recurring issue/theme.

[catrox14]

Here is some rambling spec re Michael/Dean and Sam/Lucifer 

In s4, the Cage held only Lucifer because it was made for Lucifer specifically by God to keep only Lucifer and as such I never understood how Michael could be trapped in it for any length of time other than the plot to do something about Michael at the end of s5. Michael shouldn't really have been held by the warding and design at all.

The Cage could only be opened by breaking all 66 seals and then by the Horseman's rings until TA DA spells in s11...for reasons...to get Lucifer out again and brought into a faux cage.  So there should be a  spell that can be done for Michael, assuming he's actually there at all, which I have been wondering since s11  because of the following:

--Why couldn't/didn't Michael communicate outside the Cage when it cracked in s11? Surely he had reason to communicate with other angels, Heaven, etc? Maybe even Chuck or Amara or heaven forfend..even Dean? Sorry, but "Michael is insane" is not a reliable answer given to the audience by a wildly unreliable character who LIES all the time unless he doesn't...for reasons. 

--Why did Amara in s11 refer to Lucifer as "As God's favorite, his first son, you may be the one thing in all of creation that he still cares about." I understand some have a reading that meant 'first in his heart' but IMO that's some bad dialogue to communicate that he was still his favorite, especially when Castiel is the one he's saved multiple times...

--In s12, why did  Lucifer refer to Michael as his "little bro" when Michael is the eldest of the archangels? 

--s13, why is Dean repeatedly saying that Sam died when he jumped into the pit? Sam didn't die. Sam was alive  when he let Lucifer possess him and they plunged into the pit. Dean was looking for a way to get him out of the Cage in s6. It was never implied that Dean was looking to bring him back from the dead. If so, he could have just sold his soul again. IMO, Sam was alive and soulless like what maybe a couple of days after he was taken out of Hell by Cas?  I can't see how Lucifer could even gain control over Sam once they were in the Cage when the Cage would have essentially powered him down?  IMO, since the Cage wasn't designed for Michael there is no reason for him to bound and trapped in it really and especially when it cracked when Amara was released.

Given so many  inconsistences/retcons and giving Dabb/Singer any credit for planning, I am now thinking that all of that is leading to a complete reversal of the lore from s5. Why be so careless with the arguably most important arc in the show?  I'm not even being facetious when I say I think Dabb might be rewriting the show where in Sam somehow is born in another timeline as the eldest brother and/or the only child to Mary. Why erase the past with Michael so completely?

Why have Dean's only mention of Michael IIRC since s11 be in the episode in which Sam kills Ramiel with the Michael Lance and then have Dean literally pick up the broken used pieces.  Now if I am wrong re Sam, and Dabb foreshadowed Michael coming back and Dean picking up the pieces of something Sam broke again, I'll feel bad for Sam and also happy that Dean will have a role that will matter. However, I don't think Dabb really gives a shit about Dean of his own accord so I highly doubt that it was intentional foreshadowing.

SWERVES:  Michael has been out of the Cage from s5 onward and Lucifer has been lying and saying he's still therea nd crazy  because he really doesn't know where Michael is and that he's terrified of him, so what better way to make the boys think Michael is useless by being the only person who said something was wrong with Michael. Yes, Chuck said Michael was in no shape to fight, but fuck Chuck because Chuck is lazy and IMO also a liar. Maybe Michael has been hanging out in Hell. Or maybe Michael, is in the Cage but  just decided to pretend to be insane to make Lucifer think he is not powerful now. 

That would leave room for Michael to reach out to Dean like Lucifer did Sam. I could see Michael be willing to help Dean save this world from AW Michael if for no other reason than he doesn't want it trashed like the AW. To me, he was never malevolently out to hurt humanity which Lucifer was. I thought he just thought it was the cost of the fight with Lucifer.

I also have a feint hope that maybe the alternate version of Cas that Misha has mentioned knows where Michael is in this world.

Just some thoughts here but I'm mostly super skeptical now of what they are doing with Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Just some thoughts here but I'm mostly super skeptical now of what they are doing with Dean.

I`ve been skeptical from the beginning and that hasn`t changed. I`m mostly worried about the impetus for how that new character comes about. The set-up is there for something heroic but I`m not confident they`re going to use it. 

In general, though, I`ve found that if you never expect the show to do anything good, you`ll only be disappointed by half the episodes so that is my new motto with the show.   

[belbar]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

In general, though, I`ve found that if you never expect the show to do anything good, you`ll only be disappointed by half the episodes so that is my new motto with the show.

How disheartening and accurate at the same time :(

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:09 AM, catrox14 said:

Plot contrivance writing. if the show had left Dean uninjured and  he still chose to save Mary then I might agree but they didn't so I don't. And I won't. I've discussed it in the ep thread and in all seasons so I won't belabor it here any further.

)_(

 

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here is some rambling spec re Michael/Dean and Sam/Lucifer 

In s4, the Cage held only Lucifer because it was made for Lucifer specifically by God to keep only Lucifer and as such I never understood how Michael could be trapped in it for any length of time other than the plot to do something about Michael at the end of s5. Michael shouldn't really have been held by the warding and design at all.

The Cage could only be opened by breaking all 66 seals and then by the Horseman's rings until TA DA spells in s11...for reasons...to get Lucifer out again and brought into a faux cage.  So there should be a  spell that can be done for Michael, assuming he's actually there at all, which I have been wondering since s11  because of the following:

--Why couldn't/didn't Michael communicate outside the Cage when it cracked in s11? Surely he had reason to communicate with other angels, Heaven, etc? Maybe even Chuck or Amara or heaven forfend..even Dean? Sorry, but "Michael is insane" is not a reliable answer given to the audience by a wildly unreliable character who LIES all the time unless he doesn't...for reasons. 

--Why did Amara in s11 refer to Lucifer as "As God's favorite, his first son, you may be the one thing in all of creation that he still cares about." I understand some have a reading that meant 'first in his heart' but IMO that's some bad dialogue to communicate that he was still his favorite, especially when Castiel is the one he's saved multiple times...

--In s12, why did  Lucifer refer to Michael as his "little bro" when Michael is the eldest of the archangels? 

--s13, why is Dean repeatedly saying that Sam died when he jumped into the pit? Sam didn't die. Sam was alive  when he let Lucifer possess him and they plunged into the pit. Dean was looking for a way to get him out of the Cage in s6. It was never implied that Dean was looking to bring him back from the dead. If so, he could have just sold his soul again. IMO, Sam was alive and soulless like what maybe a couple of days after he was taken out of Hell by Cas?  I can't see how Lucifer could even gain control over Sam once they were in the Cage when the Cage would have essentially powered him down?  IMO, since the Cage wasn't designed for Michael there is no reason for him to bound and trapped in it really and especially when it cracked when Amara was released.

Given so many  inconsistences/retcons and giving Dabb/Singer any credit for planning, I am now thinking that all of that is leading to a complete reversal of the lore from s5. Why be so careless with the arguably most important arc in the show?  I'm not even being facetious when I say I think Dabb might be rewriting the show where in Sam somehow is born in another timeline as the eldest brother and/or the only child to Mary. Why erase the past with Michael so completely?

Why have Dean's only mention of Michael IIRC since s11 be in the episode in which Sam kills Ramiel with the Michael Lance and then have Dean literally pick up the broken used pieces.  Now if I am wrong re Sam, and Dabb foreshadowed Michael coming back and Dean picking up the pieces of something Sam broke again, I'll feel bad for Sam and also happy that Dean will have a role that will matter. However, I don't think Dabb really gives a shit about Dean of his own accord so I highly doubt that it was intentional foreshadowing.

SWERVES:  Michael has been out of the Cage from s5 onward and Lucifer has been lying and saying he's still therea nd crazy  because he really doesn't know where Michael is and that he's terrified of him, so what better way to make the boys think Michael is useless by being the only person who said something was wrong with Michael. Yes, Chuck said Michael was in no shape to fight, but fuck Chuck because Chuck is lazy and IMO also a liar. Maybe Michael has been hanging out in Hell. Or maybe Michael, is in the Cage but  just decided to pretend to be insane to make Lucifer think he is not powerful now. 

That would leave room for Michael to reach out to Dean like Lucifer did Sam. I could see Michael be willing to help Dean save this world from AW Michael if for no other reason than he doesn't want it trashed like the AW. To me, he was never malevolently out to hurt humanity which Lucifer was. I thought he just thought it was the cost of the fight with Lucifer.

I also have a feint hope that maybe the alternate version of Cas that Misha has mentioned knows where Michael is in this world.

Just some thoughts here but I'm mostly super skeptical now of what they are doing with Dean.

The cage has archangel warding. This would suffice.  Cas seems to stop in his track with angel warding.

Michael is the oldest.  Nepotism Duo script = lol canon or Lucifer was trash talking.  He is the Prince of Lies.

Once the 66 wards were broken they were broken so it can be opened more easily using only the Horseman rings.  Rowena never opened it. She transferred Lucifer to a holding cell which he could not leave without a vessel. Rowena can do the same for Michael she need only substitute his name in the summoning spell.

Lucifer only communicated with Sam after he made contact by praying and after the cage was damaged by the release of the Darkness.  I have already speculated elsewhere that Dean prayed in 13:1 And may have made contact with Michael who may indeed be in contact with Dean and that this may be conteibuting to his declining mental state.  For shock and awe they are withholding the reveal if this is the case.

Biblical lore has always held Lucifer as the favorite who fell from grace.  Supernatural is following that story.  It is not bad dialogue IMO.  Cas is resurrected for Dean.

Dean promised Sam he would go and be happy with Lisa and Ben and Dean did that all the while trying to find a way to getvSam out.  A demon deal was not an out because of the promise, one made to a dying man is sacred by the way, and because demons are not that powerful and Dean knew that.  Cas got Sam out somehow which is perhaps the first lol canon. How?  I am guessing his body really did not make it to the cage but lol.  Death got Sam's soul out but Death has serious mojo..  For all practical purposes Sam was dead.  He was not alive and on Earth hunting with Dean. Dean was mourning his loss. Capiche.

NOT seeing inconsistencies and misunderstandings on the writers part myself... lol.  I think that they have done a great job setting this up but since it hinges so tightly on Dean and Mary and connects their relationship and his psychology and tragic flaw from her loss then and now....

Seriously I learned the hard way and I am wasting my time explaining this... 

I am part Italian witch...  i shoukd put out a shingle:  Excellent at fortelling of show fortunes and curses to those that cast the first stone.... but I digress...

I am writing a post up for elsewhere if I have time.  If i write it Alice will post it on the WFB...

Writers are being coy hoping for shock and awe. That is why they are being subtle.

THERE has been lots of subtext and a few text hints. Off the top of my head with only a single watch of each episode these are the big hints that I recall...  

In addition to Ramiel... And still a big deal because Dean!Michael could fix the lance which Dean carefully picked up and use it to kill the I am guessing unbeatable grandstanding AU Michael.

Hitler episode focused on special family blood for possession. 

The Thing: Dean chosen as "perfect vessel".

Heist episode.  Dean's "special blood" and Righteous Man shout out.

Recent episode with exorcism scene... blatant shout out to archangel Michael.  Michael is not typical in exocisms I think. Not on this show at least. 

Heaven needs a fully functioning archangel!!!!   Gabriel looks like a red shirt to me and he redeemed himself by showing up so he can die now.  Lucifer is not the angel they are looking for. He may die saving Jack but that is all they wrote for him. I hope a very much alive Crowley offs him.  It has to be Michael.  The situation is a big red alert. 

AU Michael needs killing. Maybe Jack can do it but I am not sure about that. Even if he can there is still the Heaven situation.

Every time they mention AU Michael we are supposed to think about our Michael. Seriously how can people not see this.

ROWENA NEEDS ARCHANGEL GRACE!!!!  She is the only person that can get Michael out of the cage and into a holding celll preserving the upper hand in negotiating  AND they do not have to bother DEATH which is a big plus.  And now she is alive, redeemed and TFW?!!!!!

I think he is still in the cage... probably... Chuck hates confrontation.  Maybe Michael did not make it easy. Who knows. Chuck lies too. I was on the fence about Michael being crazy because Lucifer lies, but since everyone had mental health issues this season I figure that he does too. If he is not in the cage my vote goes for the crazy Empty entity who was very very crazy. We spent way too much time on that guy IMO.

I think Michael has to have been communicating with Dean and we will see it in flashback. They love their flashback.   I posted this spec a while back.  I figure they are not showing us because it would spoil a big big thing which Dean!Michael is even if I have been saying it since 12:1 like Cassandra. And  given Dean's deteriorating mebtal state I can just imagine that every time he tries to sleep he receives dreams from crazy Michael.  Maybe every time he looks lost they are communicating.  There  is a story in Dean's deteriorating mental state that may go beyond the obvious thst he had shared and what we can extrapolate from empathy over the loss again of his mother. 

Sam prayed and Lucifer answered.  Dean prayed I am sure Michael answered only Michare is cuckoo  for Cocoa Puffs and poor Dean is losing it.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`ve been skeptical from the beginning and that hasn`t changed. I`m mostly worried about the impetus for how that new character comes about. The set-up is there for something heroic but I`m not confident they`re going to use it. 

In general, though, I`ve found that if you never expect the show to do anything good, you`ll only be disappointed by half the episodes so that is my new motto with the show.   

I think they have been focusing on character arcs. Seasons 8-11 focused on repeating Sam's heroic tragic fall and redemption arc to do it properly IMO. Season 12 started the same process with Dean.

It is more of an emotional arc than Sam's but then Dean is a very different character and for him emotional arcs tie very closely to mytharc and emotional arcs are the character's unsung strength.  Sure he is a BAMF dirty hero but then man can do OPT like no other and Dean's humanity and gis steadfast loyalty and love has been the driving force of the series from the moment he cradled the infant Sam in his wee arms. So any fans that dismiss Dean performing an emotional life risking move to save family because he wasn't shooting a gun really have not been watching the show.

If they follow through on the process as thoroughly as Carver did with Sam, hopefully there will be a lengthy period of everyone dealing with the fallout of Dean's actions, the good... tbe bad... and the ugly...

And we should see Dean recognize the downside to his tragic flaw and then character growth. 

But Singer exists only to ruin things so who knows...

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:28 PM, ILoveReading said:

2 and  6 seem kind of close together.   So at least we get them over with quickly.  He usually directs one in the first half and one in the second.  That fact that he's directing two eps so close to each other makes me wonder again if its a shortened season.

He was positive about Purgatory and he really liked Denny.  So did the fans.  We like everything Jensen likes except Charlie.  I hated her.  

[BabySpinach]

In regards to the sneak peek....

I'm sure that Mary will be proven right in her self-imposed heroic duty and the boys will be framed as needy and unable to let her be her super duper awesome self. *barf*

Seems like Mary throws herself at anything that will keep her a long distance away from her sons. She'd rather stay in a hellish apocalyptic world, fighting someone else's war, than see her own family ever again. It's the kind of unfeeling choice a cold, logical robot would make, not a sympathetic/loving human. It's not like the resistance's strength relies on her, anyway.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm sure that Mary will be proven right in her self-imposed heroic duty and the boys will be framed as needy and unable to let her be her super duper awesome self. *barf*

Yup. And that is gonna rankle. Judging by the dialogue it`s probably gonna be focused on Dean needing a "mommy" and a stupid apology at the end. Like the Raid. The clip cut out before we could see how Sam reacts to her announcement.    

I don`t mind the character staying...somewhere else. It was a relief when she was offscreen for long stretches of the Season. It would just have been so much better if they/Dean had been disappointed, maybe even bitter but not so pathetically needy that is so easy to shoot down in any argument.   

[catrox14]

My only hope is that Dean gets a chance to read her another riot act and not make him back down. If course  Sam should get a word in as well.

I am so sick of this show with the entire false premise that Dean is the one with the problem for wanting  Mary in his and Sam's life. It's not Mary and here me roar  and you menz are wrong. It's just awful. It's crappy drama. I have a bad feeling this is gonna mark Dean look like the bad guy.

[Casseiopeia]

I saw this on another site.  Summed it up perfectly for me.

"How dare Mary say that she knows what the boys have been through to find her. Did she just minimize the fact that Sam just DIED in the effort? And that he had to make a deal and is now indebted to Lucifer?! Did she just lessen the pain and horror Dean just went through witnessing his younger brother being slaughtered? Deans look of disbelief says it all. If that wasn’t the final straw that broke Dean emotionally I will be shocked. My heart broke at that very second for these two fictional characters. I don’t doubt that Sam and Dean will understand and ultimately agree with her but that doesn’t lessen the impact for them from this latest decision.. Poor Dean, by seasons end he's probably more than ready to let someone else take him over and release him from this life."

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I saw this on another site.  Summed it up perfectly for me.

"How dare Mary say that she knows what the boys have been through to find her. Did she just minimize the fact that Sam just DIED in the effort? And that he had to make a deal and is now indebted to Lucifer?! Did she just lessen the pain and horror Dean just went through witnessing his younger brother being slaughtered? Deans look of disbelief says it all. If that wasn’t the final straw that broke Dean emotionally I will be shocked. My heart broke at that very second for these two fictional characters. I don’t doubt that Sam and Dean will understand and ultimately agree with her but that doesn’t lessen the impact for them from this latest decision.. Poor Dean, by seasons end he's probably more than ready to let someone else take him over and release him from this life."

Spot on. Not to mention the risks and injuries they endured to get the ingredients. Almost makes me want to cry for these two fictional characters. As @catrox14 said, I hope Sam gets the chance to dress her down this time. And I know it's too much to ask, but I'd love it if he told her about Dean's life thanks to her, just like Dean did for him last season. There's more chance that Dean will sprout actual wings and fly than that happening, but a girl can dream.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I saw this on another site.  Summed it up perfectly for me.

"How dare Mary say that she knows what the boys have been through to find her. Did she just minimize the fact that Sam just DIED in the effort? And that he had to make a deal and is now indebted to Lucifer?! Did she just lessen the pain and horror Dean just went through witnessing his younger brother being slaughtered? Deans look of disbelief says it all. If that wasn’t the final straw that broke Dean emotionally I will be shocked. My heart broke at that very second for these two fictional characters. I don’t doubt that Sam and Dean will understand and ultimately agree with her but that doesn’t lessen the impact for them from this latest decision.. Poor Dean, by seasons end he's probably more than ready to let someone else take him over and release him from this life."

MTE. Especially the bolded part.

[Myrelle]

One more to slog through until next week's.

I can't stand the thought that the brother stuff is likely going to include a paean to their Sainted Mother Mary, but hopefully the end of the episode will finally steer us into something that leaves this viewer with a bit more of that WOW! feeling that I last truly experienced when Dean took on the Mark.

[Myrelle]

Quote

Oh, I'm terrified.

Brought over from the spoilers w/ spec thread.

So yeah, my head is finally coming down out of the clouds too concerning the finale and all thanks to thoughts of Dabb and how he always finds a way to butcher things on this show. *sigh*

Edited May 11, 2018 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

I re-checked the old spoilers. And Singer did say at Paleyfest it would be a character who viewers have seen on the show "many years ago". Also Dabb recently said it would be "unexpected but also a long time coming".

Jensen`s spoilers about big shoes to fill was IMO being nice to Matt Cohen. There is still spec that he is gonna be in the Finale. A short blurb necessary to Dean can interact with cage!Michael and say yes. 

It`s obvious the final showdown happens in the church where Lucifer kicks Sam around. Jack is also there - and he should be perfectly able to fight off Lucifer. Now apparently not since Sam and him are later huddled in the corner. 

Then Dean arrives, at this point possessed. You can see Lucifer looking at him like "what the hell?" However, where was Dean until that point? 

My guess? They all went to the church, Dean went somewhere to talk to Michael, Lucifer arrives and kicks the shit out of everyone and then Dean arrives "anew". There is some spec that the church is "the entrance to the cage". Yes, it`s ridiculous and against lore but many things have been.      

Cage!Michael would be totally unexpected at this point since noone said up that storyline even in passing. He wasn`t mentioned, he wasn`t discussed as any option, we haven`t seen nor heard about him.  

So if it is him, they are totally pulling him out of their hats. Not the first, nor the last time. Remember how "oh, removing the MOC will release this primordial evil" thing was introduced halfway into the Season 10 Finale and not at any point over the entire Season 10 where removing the Mark was the big storyline. 

What I do not believe is that Michael will kill Lucifer. The writers/producers are all riding Lucifer`s jock. At BEST, he gets thrown back into the cage, for possible future use. 

AU!Michael might just be a red herring villain. He obviously attacks them at the Gas n`Sip and later in the bunker. You can see Sam crumbled on the floor while he chokes Dean. Eyes bleeding. This might be due to a spell or Lucifer pulled some shit.  

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Res]

I wonder if the church is the one where Azazel talked to Lucifer after killing the nuns. That would make sense, if they gave a crap about canon.