These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

If its going to be a role reversal of Swan Song, then yeah.  Sam will get the crap beat out of him allowing Dean to gain posession of his body or what not. Sam will likely have some part to play.

Guess we better hope for a sunny day then. What do you suppose Dean's version of the green army men will be? A box of cereal? Or maybe the amulet will fall out of Sam's pocket just in the nick of time.

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guess we better hope for a sunny day then. What do you suppose Dean's version of the green army men will be? A box of cereal? Or maybe the amulet will fall out of Sam's pocket just in the nick of time.

It just might.  Then again, if it doesnt it would show that Dean was actually better at gaining control over Michael/Azazel/whoever than Sam was over Lucifer.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guess we better hope for a sunny day then. What do you suppose Dean's version of the green army men will be? A box of cereal? Or maybe the amulet will fall out of Sam's pocket just in the nick of time.

My vote is Sam drives up in the impala and Dean hears the rattle of the legos he put in the heating system.  That’s the only way it’s a true role reversal. 

Dean also has to take Lucifer, and AU Michael with him. 

[AwesomO4000]

Actually, in my opinion, the only way it would be a true role reversal is if Dean screws up before he saves the world, maybe getting a few thousand people killed in the process. But I doubt that's going to happen nor would I want it too. The Winchester brothers have caused enough accidental deaths already. More than likely, though, Sam will mess up again trying to do something Dean told him not to do and get in trouble, and Dean will have to sacrifice to save him, because that's how this show generally rolls, in my opinion. (Why yes, I am a bit bitter in this bitterness thread.)

At this point, I think I'll be happy and pleasantly surprised if Sam gets to do something not stupid and actually helpful in saving the world (besides playing cheerleader - which doesn't appear to be in the cards this season)... I can't remember the last time something like that happened - maybe season 7 when Sam helped Kevin destroy the tainted food offscreen?

Edited March 23, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ILoveReading]

This new character Jensen is playing sounds like an exact repeat of demon Dean. 

This is why I didn’t bother getting excited. It’s Dabb. They’ll screw it up for sure. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This new character Jensen is playing sounds like an exact repeat of demon Dean. 

This is why I didn’t bother getting excited. It’s Dabb. They’ll screw it up for sure. 

My only hope, and I mean that literally - my only hope - is that they've heard enough about how disappointed (some) fans were with the Demon!Dean arc, but more importantly how disappointed Jensen was (one of the few things he's been publicly vocal about) that they won't do it us/him again.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And pretty much flies in the face of Sam's cage meeting with him in S11, and all the encounters with him since (including him 'sleeping' in Sam's room?). Now he's terrifying to the point of nightmares? Yeesh.

Honestly, it's so predictable now. 

Sam's Hell time or his connection to Lucifer,  will be revisited again. IMO the only way this will not be about Sam and Lucifer directly is if 1) Rowena captures Sam and tortures him but I don't know why she would at this point. And it can't be that Sam is in the AU being tortured by AU Michael because the rift isn't open yet.  Isn't 13. 21 when Sam is off with Cas figuring out Heaven stuff? 2) It's possible that Sam gets captured and tortured by Anael or Lucifer. But I think it's going to be flashbacks.

Although Sam being captured by Heaven would be a highly compelling reason for Dean to say yes to an AU Michael once they get the rift open.

Sam's sorrow and torment will always take precedence over Dean's torment and Hell time and Dean's suffering will never be addressed by the show ever. Dean gets the fingerprick of blood for comedy.

It's absurd at this point. I don't know why I expected anything different.

[Myrelle]

Did you read something from Dabb, ILoveReading?

I'm not really too concerned with the Sam stuff. It just sounds like more LimpSam for the masses.  And they're welcome to it, AFAIC.

And it's happening in 21, and I'd guess that it's probably what sets Dean on his path in the finale.

[Myrelle]

They're always going to talk about Sam.

It's probably in JP's contract that they have to. JK(sort of). 

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Did you read something from Dabb, ILoveReading?

I'm not really too concerned with the Sam stuff. It just sounds like more LimpSam for the masses.  And they're welcome to it, AFAIC.

And it's happening in 21, and I'd guess that it's probably what sets Dean on his path in the finale.

Nothing specific just him talking about it happens in the finale. It gives me bad demon Dean flashbacks. 

[catrox14]

The whole "Dean should just be Dean" thing puzzles me TBH 

Character wise, It's not like Dean hasn't already been othered in the show, by being a demon and a vampire. The  only thing that hasn't happened to him is possession. I mean it won't change Dean permanently, unless the show kills him and then makes the new character the only one Jensen will play to the end of the show.

I don't think most viewers, if any really,  look at Sam and think Sam has been irrevocably altered by hosting Lucifer, nor when he was Meg.  I never see arguments that Sam isn't Sam because that happened to him. Or Cas isn't Cas because he hosted Lucifer. Or that John wasn't John because Azazel possessed him. 

I mean Dean already became his own worst nightmare when he was turned into a demon. At least if he's hosting Michael, he's doing it intentionally.

But somehow Dean won't be Dean because he might be possessed? I don't get how that works as a reason for the show to not do it? Possession didn't ruin Sam, Cas or John, why would it ruin Dean?

Edited March 23, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm not really too concerned with the Sam stuff. It just sounds like more LimpSam for the masses.  And they're welcome to it, AFAIC.

What "masses?" This fan is sick and tired of "Sam messes up and gets in trouble so Dean has to come to the rescue."

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's sorrow and torment will always take precedence over Dean's torment and Hell time and Dean's suffering will never be addressed by the show ever. Dean gets the fingerprick of blood for comedy.

That's because the writers lately seem to like to portray Sam as "limp" and unable to get past things that Dean can seem to put behind him. It seems to be what they give the character. Besides the "I screwed up but please follow me anyway" speech of last season and ensuing lame storming of the castle, when was the last time Sam had an active role doing anything in a season finale that didn't involve him failing/screwing up or it happening mostly offscreen? I'd say season 6.

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think most viewers, if any really,  look at Sam and think Sam has been irrevocably altered by hosting Lucifer. I never see arguments that Sam isn't Sam because that happened to him.

But that only lasted for one episode at the most, and not even the entire episode. And the end game we expected ahead of time was that this would be the case (i.e. a short term possession.)

It sounds here like fans want Dean to be possessed for a long arc - in other words longer than the 3 episodes we had Demon Dean - and that's an entirely different thing. In that case, for me, the most relevant comparison would be Gadreel, which I would contend was an arc about Gadreel almost more than it was Sam. It was Gadreel's deception, Gadreel's betrayal, and Gadreel's ultimate redemption arc, not Sam's. And in Gadreel's case, we got Sam sometimes also, but I'm not sure if that would be the case with this particular character Dean will be taken over by. And in my personal opinion, I would say that the Gadrel arc and everything the story did to accommodate his redemption did the character of Sam no favors. I thought Sam came out looking badly as a consequence of that arc. Just my opinion.

For me that's the difference.

Edited March 23, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's because the writers lately seem to like to portray Sam as "limp" and unable to get past things that Dean can seem to put behind him. It seems to be what they give the character. Besides the "I screwed up but please follow me anyway" speech of last season and ensuing lame storming of the castle, when was the last time Sam had an active role doing anything in a season finale that didn't involve him failing/screwing up or it happening mostly offscreen? I'd say season 6.

I think they are FINALLY deciding to give at least a semi serious look at the trauma of Hell assuming that's what is happening.  And since Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Mchael he's the one being looked at. I"ve seen calsl for Sam's Hell trauma POV to really be looked at and I think this is what Dabb is doing.

Maybe they just decided to completely flip the end of s5 which means Sam is now getting the emo stuff instead of Dean. But I completely disagree that Sam is limp here. Not at all.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But that only lasted for one episode at the most, and not even the entire episode. And the end game we expected ahead of time was that this would be the case (i.e. a short term possession.)

Regardless of the length of the arc, the argument against Michael!Dean is mostly 'Dean should just be Dean" and that argument doesn't hold water when Dean has already not been Dean or more precisesly he's been Other'd before. 

This is just a different kind of "othering".

That's my whole point .

Edited March 23, 2018 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

IMO Dean has been "just Dean" enough. If the "other" arcs alternated more or at least were more even, then it would be a moot question. But even Demon!Dean was basically just a version of Dean and it lasted for 2.5 episodes where they didn`t do much with it. This time, playing a new character that presumably features into the mythology in a significant way is the FIRST chance Dean-fans who treasure that kind of stuff get on the show. And seeing as the show will be winding down at some point, likely the only chance. So really I want it badly. 

For Sam, it happened already multiple times. If fans treasured that or not, at least they had those opportunities. Now I want mine. Afterwards I can still decide if I liked the execution or not but at least I want the opportunity. People who don`t like that for Dean got 13 Seasons of "not it" already. Leave some scraps for us other folk, please.     

[AwesomO4000]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they are FINALLY deciding to give at least a semi serious look at the trauma of Hell assuming that's what is happening.  And since Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Mchael he's the one being looked at. I"ve seen calsl for Sam's Hell trauma POV to really be looked at and I think this is what Dabb is doing.

Maybe they just decided to completely flip the end of s5 which means Sam is now getting the emo stuff instead of Dean. But I completely disagree that Sam is limp here. Not at all.

I guess that could be good?

As for the "limp" part, I'm using the fanifc term meaning here - which you may know or not so if you do sorry for the clarification - meaning Sam gets hurt and has to get "saved" (or taken care of is also included in the meaning sometimes). Even in scenarios where Sam stands up for himself - such as saying "no" to Lucifer in season 11, or resisting torture in the beginning of season 12 - the scenario is still generally that Dean (or Dean and Castiel or Dean and Mom) has to save him in the end. The end of season 10, Dean kills Death to save Sam. The end of season 8, Dean has to save Sam, the beginning of season 9, etc. The only time we see Sam "saving" Dean in a major scenario (not counting MotW episodes here, but premiers, mid-season finales, and season finales, etc.) it's by indirect means - removing the mark - or he fails (season 9 finale). With the mark scenario, there are even additional bad consequences.

Now Sam did save himself from the Amara cloud, but more often than not, it's Dean to the rescue in some way.

And I could be wrong, but from what we're hearing here in the spoilers about a messed up Sam, this seems to be the basic direction they are going for again. A Dean has to save Sam scenario... which is where the "limp" comes in.

Edited to add: I guess I should include Sam de-demoning Dean as a "save" - at least a temporary one. It wasn't in a premier or such, but I guess it could be considered an important plot point. So I guess Sam gets one anyway.

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Regardless of the length of the arc, the argument against Michael!Dean is mostly 'Dean should just be Dean" and that argument doesn't hold water when Dean has already not been Dean. That's my whole point .

Oh, for me it's almost entirely about the time period. One episode for me doesn't = "Dean should just be Dean," because he'll be Dean at the beginning of the episode and the end... so Dean. Multiple episode arc as not Dean = not being Dean. Though I guess "not Dean" for a hot minute where the possessing character does all of the heroics and some Deus ex machina gets rid of said possessor and Dean says "what happened?" would also be annoying and "not Dean" in my book, too, as well as what I would consider somewhat insulting, so...

Edited March 23, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Reganne]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they are FINALLY deciding to give at least a semi serious look at the trauma of Hell assuming that's what is happening.  And since Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Mchael he's the one being looked at. I"ve seen calsl for Sam's Hell trauma POV to really be looked at and I think this is what Dabb is doing.

Maybe they just decided to completely flip the end of s5 which means Sam is now getting the emo stuff instead of Dean. But I completely disagree that Sam is limp here. Not at all.

I actually wouldn't mind Sam getting more of the POV/emotional arc towards the end of this season.  I'm not sure if that is where they're heading, but I would love them to explore Sam a bit more.  I have felt that they don't really do that (POV/Emotions) much when it comes to Sam in this series... at least not with the emotional stuff and with what they've been through, I think it would only be a natural progression.  Maybe with Dean being NotDean, they will give us more of this POV with Sam?  I know they have shown us a few words leading into some emotional stuff here and there in season 13, and that's a start.  I'm just waiting to see if they actually follow through with it and give him some type of closure.

As far as Sam being limp, I do think the spoilers Jared spoke of about Sam do sound like there is a LimpSam in store for us.  Of course we won't know for sure until the episode airs.  Considering that Jared has already filmed these scenes and Jensen hasn't filmed NotDean, there is a chance that it's not the role reversal for Swan Song.... but more of an incident that leads to Dean becoming NOtDean.  I think I would have actually preferred a Swan Song reversal where the memories of Sam make Dean strong enough to overtake NotDean, but I guess I will just have to wait and see what they do with everything to see if I like it or not.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As far as Sam being limp, I do think the spoilers Jared spoke of about Sam do sound like there is a LimpSam in store for us.

I have only ever heard of Limp Character being basically weaklings. I don't believe for one minute this show will talke Sam's Hell trauma or whatever abuse they put him through as being a weak thing. I just don't see them doing that to Sam at all. 

[Aeryn13]

"Limp!Sam" was a pretty big thing on livejournal couple years back. It originated in the early days of the show and refered to Sam being choked or beat up or otherwise hurt and have Dean give comfort. It was definitely a big Sam-fan thing as some really liked such stories whereas others liked more badass stories. Or a combination thereof.  

I think the name just stuck in fandom. Sam at the beginning of Season 12 when he was captured and tortured by the BMOL would be textbook limp!Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

IMO Dean has been "just Dean" enough. If the "other" arcs alternated more or at least were more even, then it would be a moot question. But even Demon!Dean was basically just a version of Dean and it lasted for 2.5 episodes where they didn`t do much with it. This time, playing a new character that presumably features into the mythology in a significant way is the FIRST chance Dean-fans who treasure that kind of stuff get on the show. And seeing as the show will be winding down at some point, likely the only chance. So really I want it badly. 

For Sam, it happened already multiple times. If fans treasured that or not, at least they had those opportunities. Now I want mine. Afterwards I can still decide if I liked the execution or not but at least I want the opportunity. People who don`t like that for Dean got 13 Seasons of "not it" already. Leave some scraps for us other folk, please.     

Co-signed. I can't wait to see what Jensen does with it. Hopefully it's real meat inside if the scraps he's been given of late. 

[Mulva]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Nothing specific just him talking about it happens in the finale. It gives me bad demon Dean flashbacks. 

No, not the karaoke again!

[trxr4kids]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

"Limp!Sam" was a pretty big thing on livejournal couple years back. It originated in the early days of the show and refered to Sam being choked or beat up or otherwise hurt and have Dean give comfort. It was definitely a big Sam-fan thing as some really liked such stories whereas others liked more badass stories. Or a combination thereof.  

Must post the link to one of the funniest fanfics ever in response.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/20/2018 at 1:10 AM, Myrelle said:

Yup, he said "something big's coming..."

He never talks like that. I'm excited beyond words because of that.

Still trying to keep my feet on the ground because of Dabb and co., though.

But I'm hoping with all hope that it's OurWorldMichael he'll be playing. I've been waiting for this since S2. And I can only hope that the bolded part is true, too.

I doubt this very much. I think they want to keep Pellegrino around. I think that OWMichael would be much like AUMichael in that they would both look to eliminate the greatest threat to their power first. I think that would be part of the finale, but I DO think that the sl will still be carried over into s14, He won't want to let go and depending on how he possesses Dean, Dean may not even want to come back. I think Catrox was right in that we are going to lose Dean by the end of this season and this is how they're going to do it.

 

The surprise for me would be if they actually do it. Basically, I'll believe it when I see it, but because this came from Jensen, it's hard not to get excited about this spoiler.

You know I "know" it is Dean!Michael and Dean will go to him via Rowena to make a quid pro quo deal between the 3 of them.  Rowena wants Lucifer dead and is,willing to open the cage and put Michael in a holding cell to do it.  Dean wants the cage opened and is willing to promise to get Michael to kill Lucifer.  Dean wants Mary free and Lucifer Dead and offers his body as Michael's sword and OTV. Michael gets Dean and agree to kill Lucifer and give some grace.

He probably kills AU Michael this season because that guy screams Macguffin.

Michael vs. Lucifer next season. 

The crazy is the icing on the cake.

There have been soon many anvils.  I don't see how it can play out any other way 

22 hours ago, Mulva said:

No, not the karaoke again!

I love your avatar name. I suspect Dean! Michael rocks at the karaoke.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/21/2018 at 2:21 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers thread:

In your opinion. For me, I don't see the same supposed sstoryline bias against Dean's character that other's potentially see.

All my opinion only coming up (so I don't have to repeat "in my opinion"): The reason for me that I think it would be unexpected - or at least not make much sense - has to do with my interpretation of the characters. For me, Dean saying "yes" to Michael would be reckless on his part. Unless they change Michael around to accommodate Dean's decision, Dean saying "yes" to Michael should go badly, because that's what I've seen of Michael in the past.

If it doesn't, I imagine the scenario being something like Dean considering saying "yes," Sam reasonably objecting, Dean doing it anyway, and everything turning out fine. If the writers went with the - to me - more character driven scenario of things going badly, I imagine the outcry would be that Dean was being painted in a negative way, and how could they do that to Dean's character.

If the mytharc were going to be similar, Dean would have gone through a very dark arc similar to Sam's character getting somewhat trashed in season 4. Dean would have to do some very bad things and be "mean to Sam." I don't see that happening, so it would be more like Dean getting the heroics without going dark. Unless things go badly - as I think the characterization of Michael suggests it should - but I think there would be objections to that.

I actually think Dean has already gotten this mytharc with the Moc / Demon Dean / MoC again / Metatron / Amara arcs. I don't see the role reversal Jensen is hinting at though, because Sam during those arcs didn't get to be the supportive brother that Dean got to be during Sam's arcs. Even when Sam was supposedly "supportive" (like in season 10) it was portrayed as being at least somewhat bad, because Sam was "helping" Dean against his wishes.

So it doesn't sound to me like a role reversal is what is wanted here. Just my opinion.

...And it's not that I want to deny Dean an arc... I just want Sam to have a not crappy one in the process, and much like season 8 through 10, I don't really see that happening here. Because at least in season 10 and 11, Sam got to be positive and hopeful. In this arc all of a sudden, Sam doesn't even have that (even if to me that doesn't make sense character-wise). So Dean is both the driving force and the support / optimistic hope here, it looks like.  I'm just not sure what Sam's role is going to be in all of this.

In my opinion seasons 8-11 focused on Sam's fatal flaw and lead to a redemption arc in 11.

Sam's fatal flaw was hubris which grew out of feeling like an outsider who needed to prove himself. 

They are currently exploring Dean's fatal flaw, low self esteem plus depession lead him to make reckless saxrificez when he blameshimself for loss of family, either through death or alienation of affection and all stemming from the tragic loss of Mary and John's brutal parenting which always put the blame on Dean.

So yes reckless is the operative word.  And Mary's loss is,the most potent trigger for him to say yes to Michael.  The facts that...

1. He can literally save her by making a deal to sacrifice his life for the archangel grace to free her.   We already saw him do this once this season for Sam using the syringe method he used to kill himself in season 6 just to chat with Death to save Sam's soul from the CAGE where MICHAEL is.  

2. Show pointed out quid pro quo deals between angels and vessels to save lives ones by introducing Amael

3. Show actually reminded us that he is the Righteous Man

4. Show had him kill Gog and Magog.  As silly and random as that was Donatelko quoted the first paragraph of the wiki page wgich also says killing them is a precursor TO THE APOCALYPSE, their killer is often considered to be the MESSIAH, AKA THE GUY WHO KILLS LUCIFER, in some texts also conflated with MICHAEL.  This stuff does not happen by accident.  This is a big anvil.

Gabriel is back. The last time Gabriel was back and zapped them into tv it was to push them into accepting their Apocalyptic roles. Sammy done played that.  Dean has not.

Yada yada yada...

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

In my opinion seasons 8-11 focused on Sam's fatal flaw and lead to a redemption arc in 11.

Sam's fatal flaw was hubris which grew out of feeling like an outsider who needed to prove himself. 

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just to be safe.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You know I "know" it is Dean!Michael and Dean will go to him via Rowena to make a quid pro quo deal between the 3 of them.  Rowena wants Lucifer dead and is,willing to open the cage and put Michael in a holding cell to do it.  Dean wants the cage opened and is willing to promise to get Michael to kill Lucifer.  Dean wants Mary free and Lucifer Dead and offers his body as Michael's sword and OTV. Michael gets Dean and agree to kill Lucifer and give some grace.

He probably kills AU Michael this season because that guy screams Macguffin.

Michael vs. Lucifer next season. 

 

I don`t think that is gonna work now after they clowned up Lucifer so much. Can`t take him seriously as a threat anymore. And AU!Michael kicked his ass even before he lost most of his grace. 

Currently Jack seems the heavyweight supernatural champion. Now if HE can`t handle AU!Michael, then I could see a case being made for "well, how about Michael vs. Michael?". And because our Michael isn`t at top strength apparently, this is where Dean would come in. 

Unless they somehow make it so that our Lucifer manages to snatch AU!Michael`s grace and ingests it to make himself stronger. But that is a pretty longshot. It`s like Lucifer vs. Amara at this point. She swatted him like an annoying fly. 

 

Quote

He can literally save her by making a deal to sacrifice his life for the archangel grace to free her.  

 I`m pretty sure they will get the archangel grace from Gabriel. They will gather all ingredients, open the rift and AU!Michael of course will make it through. 

Jensen is only playing that new character in the Finale. At that point, I think they have gathered all ingredients and the threat of AU!Michael is gonna be relevant in episode 22. Which leads to whatever happens in the Finale. 

While I`m kinda disappointed it only happens in the Finale, I much rather Dean does what he does for the world than for freaking ice-queen Mary. Even if he makes a risky decision, at least let him do it for heroic reasons and not always this "family, family, family" small-minded stuff. The character used to be better than this. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

 I`m pretty sure they will get the archangel grace from Gabriel. They will gather all ingredients, open the rift and AU!Michael of course will make it through. 

Jensen is only playing that new character in the Finale. At that point, I think they have gathered all ingredients and the threat of AU!Michael is gonna be relevant in episode 22. Which leads to whatever happens in the Finale. 

While I`m kinda disappointed it only happens in the Finale, I much rather Dean does what he does for the world than for freaking ice-queen Mary. Even if he makes a risky decision, at least let him do it for heroic reasons and not always this "family, family, family" small-minded stuff. The character used to be better than this. 

IA with all of this.

Not sure what they will do with Mary, but hopefully she makes it back and Dean taking on the new character is more about dealing with the fallout from that than in just rescuing her.

Jensen said that Dean steps up in a big way. Hopefully for this fan he gets more in the way of  the genuine "action" part of this latest big world saving event, and even if that means having to don another persona, including potentially having to cede his free will to that persona for a time, in order for the world saving to happen.

I'd love it if going into S14, we'd get a Michael who is still possessing Dean, but who's also trying to pretend to others that it's OurDean-kind of as Gadreel did with Sam for half of S9. The potential for JA to strut his stuff within that scenario would be groundbreaking on this show, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, Res said:

Based on most opinions I've seen on these boards and the net, I'm about the only one that's not at all thrilled with the cartoon episode this week. And, yes, I grew up loving Scooby Doo. I guess it just seems like this show has become such a joke already compared its origins that this is IMO the coming episode is a neon sign flashing that they know they made it into a joke and really don't care about what used to make the show great. Instead, it's more pandering to the least common denominator. But honestly, this is only a small portion of my problem with it. 

Mainly, "fun" episodes, like meta ones, were supposed to lighten up the season when myth arcs became too dark or tense, but this season we don't have anything like that, especially with the first half of the season mainly being used for WS set up. So IMO there is nothing to lighten up as not much of anything has actually happened. Instead we have so many loose ends that will probably be wrapped in the last two episodes so rushed and unsupportingly, except with a lot of LOLcanon, that it irritates me when this episode could be a lot more meat to resolving things. 

Why can't we have showrunners who actually care about our show as much as us so they would actually plot out storylines instead of throwing everything out and seeing what sticks?

Am I understanding it correctly - this episode was written by ScoobyDoo writers and not SPN writers? If so, I wonder how much input Dabb had into the script? And did they only write the cartoon parts, or the intro/outro as well? If they did write the whole thing, it will be interesting to see what their perceptions of the three SPN characters are. We've already seen Dean be a 'ladies man' and scream in fear over encountering a monster, Sam being uppity over Dean wanting to stay in Scoobyworld,  and Cas's confusion over the talking dog. Hmmm.

So while I think it's a fun idea and harmless in the grander scheme of things - we have high school musical eps, meta-tv eps, 'real' J2M eps, so I don't think this one's gonna hurt the credibility any more than those did - I do have my concerns about them once again beating Dean with the stereotype stick.

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Am I understanding it correctly - this episode was written by ScoobyDoo writers and not SPN writers? If so, I wonder how much input Dabb had into the script? And did they only write the cartoon parts, or the intro/outro as well? If they did write the whole thing, it will be interesting to see what their perceptions of the three SPN characters are. We've already seen Dean be a 'ladies man' and scream in fear over encountering a monster, Sam being uppity over Dean wanting to stay in Scoobyworld,  and Cas's confusion over the talking dog. Hmmm.

So while I think it's a fun idea and harmless in the grander scheme of things - we have high school musical eps, meta-tv eps, 'real' J2M eps, so I don't think this one's gonna hurt the credibility any more than those did - I do have my concerns about them once again beating Dean with the stereotype stick.

One thing I did like was Dean telling Sam they weren't going to tell the Scooby gang about monsters.  This is a trait we've seen Dean exhibit since s1, in trying to protect innocents from knowing what's out there in the dark. (with the exception of Claire Sue). 

But my biggest worry is basically is how much influence Dabb had.  Where the episode is basically Dean eat, and flirts with Daphne and Sam and Thelma solve the case.   Dean screaming at the sight of a ghost doesn't fill me with much confidence.

I'm hoping this is Dean acting scared because most people would be scared if they saw a ghost, and Dean screaming is pretend.

My other worry is that this is going to be used by Dabb to ruin something else for Dean.  It seems the show takes pleasure in tearing down everything he loves.  His wrestling hero made a deal and was selling people out to demons, his western fantasies were nothing like he pictured, and not to mention Mary. I don't want this to happen to Dean's love of Scooby and him finishing this ep no longer liking the show.

I know this is the spoiler thread, but I'm going to tag this since its kind of a major spoiler about the ep.   It's also 2nd hand so take with a grain of salt.

Spoiler

I guess at some point Daphne tells Dean she's not interested

 

So my overall feelings are mixed, on one had the episode looks funny and fun but on the other Dabb sucks.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So my overall feelings are mixed, on one had the episode looks funny and fun but on the other Dabb sucks.

Substitute 'funny' with interesting, exciting, sad, or scary and it pretty much applies to my feelings every episode since Dabb took over.

Your spoiler makes me want to throw things, but does not surprise me one little bit. Dabb likes nothing better than to do things like this. I'll put it down to envy and the power his position gives him. Suck it, Dabb. (And even if he didn't have input in this one, it's a running theme with him).

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Where the episode is basically Dean eat, and flirts with Daphne and Sam and Thelma solve the case.   Dean screaming at the sight of a ghost doesn't fill me with much confidence.

This is what I was getting at about the perceptions the show leaves (and the endless discussions of it in the BvJ thread). It's one thing if Dabb did have input into the writing, but it's even more interesting if outside writers included this stuff because it is their perception of the characters.

[Wayward Son]

I’m fairly certain daphne/Fred are an item in the cartoon (even if it isn’t super heavily focused on due to it being a kids show). So why exactly should Dean be successful in getting to barge in and home wreck an existing relationship? If it’s true Daphne tells Dean she’s not interested because of her relationship with Fred... good for her! 

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m fairly certain daphne/Fred are an item in the cartoon (even if it isn’t super heavily focused on due to it being a kids show). So why exactly should Dean be successful in getting to barge in and home wreck an existing relationship? If it’s true Daphne tells Dean she’s not interested because of her relationship with Fred... good for her! 

As long as it's clear it's because of Fred, and not ewww, Dean is so gross/old/pervy, why would I even? I'll take bets now on which tack they take (provided Dabb had script input).

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As long as it's clear it's because of Fred, and not ewww, Dean is so gross/old/pervy, why would I even? I'll take bets now on which tack they take (provided Dabb had script input).

 

Dean has never been shown to be a guy that would try and undermine an existing relationship. Dean getting carried away because it's his cartoon crush I can live with. But Dean IMO would not screw over a relationship.

 It all depends on Daphnes age as to how creepy it is. It seems to me the boys are their current ages and not regressed to younger.

That said, if this is played as Dean just really having a chance to live out his childhood fantasy of being A Scooby Gang member , given his absolutely shit,and largely non childhood, I can accept Dean's behavior. I just have little faith that the writers an Dabb will bring such nuance. I hope I'm wrong and we get a little bit of love for Dean's lost childhood.

[Wayward Son]

IMO the episode seems to be setting up Fred and Dean as ‘love rivals’. 

 

So far there has been: 

 

• Dean loving everyone except for Fred! I’ll need to rewatch for exact quote, but in one of the preview somewhere he’s like “I love these guys, except Fred! He’s a douche” 

• “Daphne could do so much better” IMO that’s about Fred who is sitting next to her at the time. 

• The chase scene with Dean trying to protect Daphne only to turn around and find out Fred has ran off with her. 

[ILoveReading]

http://tvline.com/2018/03/27/supernatural-spoilers-scooby-doo-crossover-season-13-video/

Sounds like this episode will go exactly as @Res suspected. 

Dean eats, makes a fool of himself and Sam and Thelma are super smart and solve the case.

Would it kill Sam to let Dean have a little fun once in awhile instead of acting exasperated and annoyed, and embarrassed at every little thing he does.  Buzzkill.  At this point I'm seriously questioning if Sam even wants to be around Dean.

I'll say it again.  Dabb sucks.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Your spoiler makes me want to throw things, but does not surprise me one little bit. Dabb likes nothing better than to do things like this. I'll put it down to envy and the power his position gives him. Suck it, Dabb. (And even if he didn't have input in this one, it's a running theme with him).

This is what I was getting at about the perceptions the show leaves (and the endless discussions of it in the BvJ thread). It's one thing if Dabb did have input into the writing, but it's even more interesting if outside writers included this stuff because it is their perception of the characters.

For me, every episode since Regarding Dean has given birth to the dreaded questions of how else can Dabb and co. either attempt to assassinate Dean's character or make him irrelevant this time around.

And sadly, it's the episodes that that kind of nonsense isn't as evident that have become the rarity and the anomaly now(again IMO), leading this Deanfan to unfortunately expect it in some part/to some degree in every new episode that airs.

I've never felt this way to such an extent or degree as I feel it now under Dabb and Singer and this is at the root of why I think that Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

Nothing they could do or try, in any kind of episode-even an animated one-would surprise me, at this point, to be perfectly honest. 

Trepidation over what they will do with/to Dean has become the norm with this show for me now, and it's probably the biggest reason why I'm looking so forward to Jensen finally being allowed to play a character that's NotDean.

Even the worst villain ever would be better than Dabb's idea of Dean, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

Dean has never been shown to be a guy that would try and undermine an existing relationship. Dean getting carried away because it's his cartoon crush I can live with. But Dean IMO would not screw over a relationship.

 It all depends on Daphnes age as to how creepy it is. It seems to me the boys are their current ages and not regressed to younger.

That said, if this is played as Dean just really having a chance to live out his childhood fantasy of being A Scooby Gang member , given his absolutely shit,and largely non childhood, I can accept Dean's behavior. I just have little faith that the writers an Dabb will bring such nuance. I hope I'm wrong and we get a little bit of love for Dean's lost childhood.

You can stop hoping now.

Sigh.

Edited: Sorry, @ILoveReading I didn't see your post.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Would it kill Sam to let Dean have a little fun once in awhile instead of acting exasperated and annoyed, and embarrassed at every little thing he does.  Buzzkill.  At this point I'm seriously questioning if Sam even wants to be around Dean.

I'll say it again.  Dabb sucks.

I've been saying it for a long time. Apart from the occasional Rah! Rah! speech when Sam wants something from Dean, there is almost no indication that he likes or respects his brother at. all. Even his 'cheer up Dean' mission in Advanced Thanatology seemed more condescending than indulgent. Personally, I wonder what Dean wants to be around him.

And I concur, Dabb does indeed suck.

Edited March 27, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can stop hoping now.

Sigh.

Edited: Sorry, @ILoveReading I didn't see your post.

No worries.

There go my hopes for this ep. 

More "Sam is the smart one" and from Jared this time too.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

No worries.

There go my hopes for this ep. 

More "Sam is the smart one" and from Jared this time too.

Yup. More buzzkill than buzz for this fan. :/

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

MO the episode seems to be setting up Fred and Dean as ‘love rivals’. 

And it would be a horrible, terrible no good very bad characterization of Dean. 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

http://tvline.com/2018/03/27/supernatural-spoilers-scooby-doo-crossover-season-13-video/

Sounds like this episode will go exactly as @Res suspected. 

Dean eats, makes a fool of himself and Sam and Thelma are super smart and solve the case.

Would it kill Sam to let Dean have a little fun once in awhile instead of acting exasperated and annoyed, and embarrassed at every little thing he does.  Buzzkill.  At this point I'm seriously questioning if Sam even wants to be around Dean.

I'll say it again.  Dabb sucks.

Goddammit. 

I agree about Sam. He's getting caricature treatment as well. It's like Dabb handed his Scooby buddy bullet points. Sight.  I am so disappointed. I guess Dabb/Singer really don't give a shit how much they destroy Dean. They can both piss off.

On the plus side, Dean doesn't look like Dean. Jensen IMO is doing an exaggerated Dean voice, so I'm just going with that's not really Dean and some terrible shapeshifter version. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LOL

[catrox14]

Clues!

* Dean has “a few choice words for Fred,” star Jensen Ackles teases. “[He’s] not a big fan of Fred, simply because he’s getting in the way of [Dean’s] advances to Daphne.”

* Meanwhile, “Sam and Velma, both being the bookish, intellectual types, have some fun banter,” actor Jared Padalecki shares.

From the article linked above

Oh my gods. Jensen is so diplomatic. LOL

My interpretation of Jensen's words : 'So that doesn't look anything like Dean but I guess that's how they see me? OKKKAY'.  Sorry, but Danneel is off her rocker if she thinks Scooby Doo Dean is hot. Oh the diplomacy in this answer is amazing! He should really be an ambassador or something.

Quote

* How did the show’s leading men react when they first saw their animated selves? “I was like, ‘Oh, wow, I’m a lot taller on the animated series,'” Ackles describes. “It was great. ‘Cause it’s not just some cool, modern animation. It’s, like, old-school Scooby-Doo animation. Sometimes, you think about how you would animate yourself, but then you see these professional artists, and it’s like, ‘Oh, that’s what they think of me. That’s their rendering of me.’ That’s really unique. It’s almost like looking at yourself through somebody else’s eyes, which is very cool.” (For the record, Ackles’ wife Danneel approves: “Cartoon Jensen is hot!”)

As for Padalecki, his first thought was, “‘I wish I looked like that,'” he says with a laugh. “I was like, ‘Alright. They did me some favors. I’ll take it.'” Continuing with the trend, Misha Collins also loved “how tall and lean” cartoon Cas was.

 

A

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Clues!

* Dean has “a few choice words for Fred,” star Jensen Ackles teases. “[He’s] not a big fan of Fred, simply because he’s getting in the way of [Dean’s] advances to Daphne.”

* Meanwhile, “Sam and Velma, both being the bookish, intellectual types, have some fun banter,” actor Jared Padalecki shares.

From the article linked above

Oh my gods. Jensen is so diplomatic. LOL

My interpretation of Jensen's words : 'So that doesn't look anything like Dean but I guess that's how they see me? OKKKAY'.  Sorry, but Danneel is off her rocker if she thinks Scooby Doo Dean is hot. Oh the diplomacy in this answer is amazing! He should really be an ambassador or something.

 

"Unique"

Uhhuh.

And I've had just about enough of long-suffering, sighing Sam. Obnoxious doesn't start to cover it.

Dabb just can't help himself. Guess he passed that "Dean is a joke" KoolAid to the Scooby writers, too.

Edited March 27, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And it would be a horrible, terrible no good very bad characterization of Dean. 

I was just saying that’s what they’re going with and since Daphne/Fred is established I feel Daphne not going with Dean is the right thing. Ackles also seems to confirm my thoughts on it being Dean vs Fred since he says “[He’s] not a big fan of Fred, simply because he’s getting in the way of [Dean’s] advances to Daphne.”

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm guessing the kiss on the cheek and Fred's scarf are their way of forgiving dumb ol' Dean's clumsy advances.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I was just saying that’s what they’re going with and since Daphne/Fred is established I feel Daphne not going with Dean is the right thing. Ackles also seems to confirm my thoughts on it being Dean vs Fred since he says “[He’s] not a big fan of Fred, simply because he’s getting in the way of [Dean’s] advances to Daphne.”

Yeah, I got that. And I'm saying it's a shit version of Dean that doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny.

Dean is not that guy. Dean has never been shown to compete with any guy for a girl or to try and break up a relationship to get with someone.  It's completely regressive for Dean to compete with any guy.

Now, maybe I'll get lucky and Dean will find out that Fred is some kind of asshole to Daphne and then I'll cheer.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, I got that. And I'm saying it's a shit version of Dean that doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny.

Dean is not that guy. Dean has never been shown to compete with any guy for a girl or to try and break up a relationship to get with someone.  It's completely regressive for Dean to compete with any guy.

Now, maybe I'll get lucky and Dean will find out that Fred is some kind of asshole to Daphne and then I'll cheer.

And since Fred isn’t an abusive asshole that would even be worse. 

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And since Fred isn’t an abusive asshole that would even be worse. 

Huh? I don't understand this reply. I never said anything about anyone abusing anyone else? Someone can be an asshole without being abusive.

Fred could be disrespectful to Daphne. Maybe Daphne remarks to Velma on Dean's good looks and Fred gets jealous. Maybe Fred is jealous that Dean kissed her hand.  Maybe Fred somehow doesn't protect Daphne as Dean thinks he should. There could be any number of reasons for Fred to actually be the asshole in that equation and that's why Dean thinks she could do better beyond himself wishing to be with her.

Sadly, I don't think Dabb will give Dean anything good like that, so your ongoing extreme negative opinion of Dean is likely to be supported by more bashing of Dean's character.

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sadly, I don't think Dabb will give Dean anything good like that, so your ongoing extreme negative opinion of Dean is likely to be supported by more bashing of Dean's character.

Bashing? It would sound more like staying true to his selfish characterisation to me. 

However, I’m sure they’ll bash Fred in a manner similar to your suggestion just to prop up Dean and make his attempts at wrecking an existing relationship acceptable.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Bashing? It would sound more like staying true to his selfish characterisation to me. 

However, I’m sure they’ll bash Fred in a manner similar to your suggestion just to prop up Dean and make his attempts at wrecking an existing relationship acceptable.

Sam's more likely to commit adultry.  That's canon.

There may be some scene's i'm forgetting but we don't usually see Dean hit on someone if he knows they're with someone.   

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, I’m sure they’ll bash Fred in a manner similar to your suggestion just to prop up Dean and make his attempts at wrecking an existing relationship acceptable.

I would love for Dean to be propped. I am all for it. And if Fred is an asshole to Daphne then Dean is probably doing Daphne a favor by meddling. 

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Bashing? It would sound more like staying true to his selfish characterisation to me. 

Name one situation in the show that's canon wherein Dean proactively tried to interfere in a woman's relationship with her partner so he could be with her.  There is opinion and there's canon. I can't think of one situation. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by catrox14