These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But this show has done a lot of crap, especially lately, that I haven't liked, so getting Bobby back feels like a win for me.  

 

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's not perfect, and I get that I probably wouldn't like it if I wasn't a Bobby fan, so I won't fault you for what you're feeling.  But this show has done a lot of crap, especially lately, that I haven't liked, so getting Bobby back feels like a win for me.  

It's not because I don't like Bobby.  That's just the icing on the cake.

I liked Charlie for the most part(until the end of her arc) and I still disliked bringing her over for the same basic reason. The narrative had Dean treat her as though she IS the same person. I would feel this way about bringing over a Cas doppelganger or any other doppelganger character.  They are not the same.

Bobby's death was a good one.  He didn't die a crappy pointless death. He died fighting the Leviathan.  Charlie died a crappy death and instead of just addressing that her death as  stupid and pointless at some point in the narrative, which they could have done, they think they can fix it by bringing in a NOT!Charlie.   To me, it dilutes both of their deaths for different reasons.   Resurrecting the actual original characters also dilutes their deaths but at least they are the SAME people with the same connections and relationships.  And as much as I dislike Bobby, I understand the boys loved him so to me this just is a creepy erasure of Bobby's history with the boys.  For instance, if they take OG!Bobby out of Heaven for reasons, it doesn't IMO alter his SL. 

Resurrecting Mary was the worst because IMO her death is what sparked John's spiral and lead to all that happened.  IMO bringing her back makes all that happened to John and the boys kind of pointless now.  Then they turned Mary into a pretty terrible character IMO but yet she's going to be awarded AU!Bobby and it's supposed to be seen as "AWWWW look they have a thing".   To me, doing this will undermine too many arcs and plots and that's why I hate it. Even if they decide to have Dean and Sam talk about how they aren't the same people, IMO, the damage is already done. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Don't misunderstand me.  I'm not at all stating that it's stellar writing.  It's not.  It's cheap and easy.  But I've been frustrated with this show for a few seasons now, and I'm not holding my breath for them to suddenly begin writing great, dramatic, scary episodes.  I'd be thrilled, but I don't see it happening.  So I look at the return of Bobby and Charlie as sort of a homecoming or reunion sort of thing.  It feels comfortable to me, I guess that's it.   And this is all based on not having a clue what they have in store for these characters this coming season.  My opinion could very easily change if the writing is particularly stupid.  Time will tell.

[gonzosgirrl]

I'll start by saying I wish they hadn't brought back any of the AU characters to our world. It was kind of fun to see who we might see over there, but they should've stayed there, IMO - one and done. And it's no secret I loathe this Mary. But that said, I wouldn't have hated the idea of OG Bobby and Mary getting together. It actually happens quite often IRL that friends get together after a spouse dies. Bobby and Mary isn't any worse or better than Bobby and Ellen, and that seemed a pretty popular/cool thing in the Titanic episode. But as things stand, I just with they'd both drive off into the sunset together, never to be seen or heard from again.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't hook up Mary with Lucifer - after all, she's really adept at seeing the good in everyone. #sarcasm

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm honestly surprised they didn't hook up Mary with Lucifer - after all, she's really adept at seeing the good in everyone. #sarcasm

I won't be at all surprised if we find out that Mary is pregnant by someone...somehow. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I won't be at all surprised if we find out that Mary is pregnant by someone...somehow. LOL

A new 'sword' for Michael?

(I just grossed myself out, lol)

[catrox14]

So does this mean  AU Bobby is going to have fisticuffs or is being trained? I don't remember regular Bobby even doing that...he would shoot people and stab them but did he really ever punch someone?

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So does this mean  AU Bobby is going to have fisticuffs or is being trained? I don't remember regular Bobby even doing that...he would shoot people and stab them but did he really ever punch someone?

I remember him punching Meg!Sam and when he was possessed he punched Dean. I can’t think of any other times.

[gonzosgirrl]

Jim specifically mentions 'sparring' and 'gloves' which implies boxing. On Supernatural. With a 20-something. WTAF? 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jim specifically mentions 'sparring' and 'gloves' which implies boxing. On Supernatural. With a 20-something. WTAF? 

He could mean he's doing fight training for an upcoming scene.  Unless AU Bobby was an Olympic boxer before the apocalypse too.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jim specifically mentions 'sparring' and 'gloves' which implies boxing. On Supernatural. With a 20-something. WTAF? 

It could be Jim training with a 20 something trainer and he did tag it with SPN *** so I tend to think it's at least show related.  If it is going to be on screen, I'm wondering if we'll get a training montage that will somehow have AU Bobby training Jack to fight since he doesn't have his powers.  I mean it's not like Sam is younger and more fit and could train Jack himself....  I'm thinking it's Alex/Jack because he's the only 20 something in the main cast right now that I can think of. Can't be AU Kevin because he's dead. (Stop Killing Kevin!). Charlie is in her thirties, right? 

***I thought he did. I don't see it though. Oops.

Edited July 12, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

From @catrox14 in the regular spoiler thread:

Quote

We have enough knowledge of the show, and it's past tendencies and coupled with the spoilers we do get that I think they should count as SWAGS- Scientific Wild Ass Guesses). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The writers have a habit of repeating Dean's storylines with Sam.   The writers have also demonstrated they don't care about past canon and storylines.  So speculating that Sam will end up saying yes to to Michael at some point isn't a WAG.  

It's a very probable outcome to this storyline.  After all the writers had no problem with Sam being the one to use Michael's spear. 

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It's a very probable outcome to this storyline.  After all the writers had no problem with Sam being the one to use Michael's spear. 

See, that's one of the many reasons I don't think that Sam becoming OG Michael's vessel should be a WAG. It should be a SWAG tm @catrox14

[ILoveReading]

I was kind of disappointed to see Jared so scruffy because that probably means depressed mopey Sam is back. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I was kind of disappointed to see Jared so scruffy because that probably means depressed mopey Sam is back. 

Can't help but think the Michael!Dean arc will be more about Sam than Dean.  And I'll be really pissed if Sam has a beard and Michael!Dean doesn't. 

Also, has there been ANY evidence that Jensen has been on set at all?

[Aeryn13]

I`m actually happy if Michael/Dean remains clean-shaven. What can I say, I prefer the look. Not a big beard-fan.

Quote

Also, has there been ANY evidence that Jensen has been on set at all?

I could see him having limited screentime as nominally the baddie. The focus will most certainly be on Team Bunker. Which would be okay with me IF Jensen gets some quality material, not so much quantity but good writing, some cool scenes and some larger exposure than one episode.

Also, if they must bring Lucifer back, don`t do it right away. At least a few episodes should belong solely to Michael as the new Big Bad. Or antagonist. Or whatever role he plays. 

[Pondlass1]

A spell will be found to eject Michael in episode 14.1.  It will need 3 ingredients (as usual). Cas will flit off and find two quite easily.  The third will require much concern and forehead wrinkling from Sam, probably a 'Balls!!' comment from Bobby and - naturally - a big ol' glop of grace. 

Meanwhile back at the long ranch,  Michael/Dean will wander into a bar.....

I could write it all meself.

[Casseiopeia]

Isn't Jensen directing this season?  I thought I heard he was directing 1 maybe 2 episodes this year.  Maybe that is why we haven't seen pictures of him in VC yet?

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Isn't Jensen directing this season?  I thought I heard he was directing 1 maybe 2 episodes this year.  Maybe that is why we haven't seen pictures of him in VC yet?

According to IBelieveIntheLittleTreeTopper 14.1 is being directed by Thomas Wright and 14.2 by Dick Speight, Jr.  14.3 director isn't listed yet, but typically if Jensen is directing 3, he usually films first, at least that's how it's gone in the past.

This is what she's compiled so far.

Quote

And so Hellatus begins. But never fear, the spoiler ninja is here for you. The regular Spoiler Sheet will return once filming starts for the season, in the mean time I’ll be collecting all the informtion we have about the next season right here. Informtion is oganized newest to oldest.

I estimate shooting will start on July 16.

Season 14 is rumored to be only 20 episodes. (x)

While the CW will not (currently) be going forward with Wayhward Sisters, Jensen and Misha shared that they and the writers hope the next season will include all the Wayard characters. (x)

Misha descibed the season finale as setting up the big bad for next season: Micahel.

The Ghost Apocalypse/Issues with Heaven will be a looming threat in season 14 as well.

Season 14 poster/key art.

Rich will be directing episodes 2 and 6.

Filming should start on July 9th.

Hiatus Con schedule.

Season 14 should premiere on October 11.

The writers returned to work on May 14. 

Writers this season: Andrew Dabb and Rober Singer (Showrunners), Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner, Robert Berens, Meredith Glynn, Steve Yockey, Davey Perez. Writers Assistant: Nick Vaught.

She doesn't mention Jensen directing which might not mean much but she's somewhat on target with many of her spoilers and 411.  She has Steve Yockey still listed as a writer. (I HOPE THIS IS ACCURATE! He's my favorite writer currently). 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

She doesn't mention Jensen directing which might not mean much but she's somewhat on target with many of her spoilers and 411.  She has Steve Yockey still listed as a writer. (I HOPE THIS IS ACCURATE! He's my favorite writer currently). 

Except the starting date, lol. And much of the S12 ending spoilers were wrong or half-rights. I didn't bother looking for S13 so can't say.

I don't know how or when, but something in my brain is telling me Jensen said if he directed this season, it *wouldn't* be the first (third) episode, but in the normal schedule like any other director. I wish I could remember when/where he said this. In any case, I don't think that him directing would go unreported, no matter how tight a lid they tried to keep on it.

I have been ruminating/angsting about the lack of Jensen sightings/news so far in 14x01 and many have offered reasonable explanations/possibilities, the most logical of which is that he's filming separately from the gang as Michael is in the wind somewhere. Still feels pretty weird and the most low-key beginning to a filming season as I've experienced.

All I know is, I'm not interested *at all* in a season premiere in which Jensen Ackles only has a cameo appearance. I dearly hope that's not the case.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except the starting date, lol. And much of the S12 ending spoilers were wrong or half-rights. I didn't bother looking for S13 so can't say

 

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except the starting date, lol. And much of the S12 ending spoilers were wrong or half-rights. I didn't bother looking for S13 so can't say.

Heh. Fair enough. I still think hers are the most comprehensive even if she gets some things wrong about story etc. 

[ILoveReading]

The AU soldiers don't know Dean.  They have no connection to him and since Michael probably killed many of their friends/family it would be intesting if it was TFW vs Bobby AU soliders.  Each wanting to find Dean for different reasons. 

So much potential for conflict that fits into the storyline organically, rather than just falling back on the over done, sad Sam, Sad "I don't belong anywhere Cas" and suddenly sad "I don't belong anywhere either Jack."

Guess which one lazyDabb is going for.

Misha said at his panel that Cas still feels like he doesn't belong, and now suddenly Jack feels that way.  And when Cas talks to Jack he starts to believe he does.  I really hope that plays out better than it sounds because Im going to feel even more resentful of Jack if after Dean spent the last 3 seasons fussing over, supporting Cas and his decisions, and suddenly one conversation with Jack Sue solves all Cas's problems its not going to sit well with me.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

spent the last 3 seasons fussing over, supporting Cas and his decisions, and suddenly one conversation with Jack Sue solves all Cas's problems its not going to sit well with me.

I can't figure out why Jack would be of any more help than Dean because Jack is not Cas' bio child and didn't Jack basically fill Cas with some sort of images of a Paradise?  IMO, this writing contrivance with Cas so he doesn't have a reason to really attach to humanity (The Winchesters) and he can't really attach to Heaven again either.  And it leaves the writers room to do pretty much whatever they want with Cas EXCEPT make him a full human or as an angel a full time resident of the bunker and full time with TFW.  

I think there is a lot in the comment from whoever said " We are aware of those things" which to me translates to "We write for fanservice" no matter which faction is poking at them at any particular time. 

I cannot fathom any reason for Nick to even be a character in the show.  It's ridiculous how much they are obsessed with Pellegrino. I could even deal with their obsession over Lucifer in the Nicksuit.  But finding a reason to have Nick around makes no damn sense at all. He was a vessel so Lucifer could eventually get to Sam.  It's all pretty stupid.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I cannot fathom any reason for Nick to even be a character in the show.  It's ridiculous how much they are obsessed with Pellegrino. I could even deal with their obsession over Lucifer in the Nicksuit.  But finding a reason to have Nick around makes no damn sense at all. He was a vessel so Lucifer could eventually get to Sam.  It's all pretty stupid.

While it is stupid, I`m relieved they`re getting on with their Pellegrino obsession (who isn`t a bad actor or an uncharismatic one) by contriving some storyline for the Nick-vessel instead of bringing Lucifer back and undermining the only thing that was positive about the botched end fight of Season 13. They tarnished everything else about giving Jensen/Dean a go as Michael. That he got to kill Lucifer, even if it was joint, was the ONE thing that episode had going for it. I would have loathed to have that taken away too. 

 

I read that from the Gold Panel Jared said he read 6 scripts and Jensen 2. I know this is their usual modus operandi that Jared reads as far ahead as he can get. But the 2 for Jensen makes me think that is the amount of time he will play Michael. I mean, wouldn`t he at least want to know how long that is going on for, if not maybe the specifics?   

[ILoveReading]

56 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I read that from the Gold Panel Jared said he read 6 scripts and Jensen 2. I know this is their usual modus operandi that Jared reads as far ahead as he can get. But the 2 for Jensen makes me think that is the amount of time he will play Michael. I mean, wouldn`t he at least want to know how long that is going on for, if not maybe the specifics?   

Jensen talked about this at JIB.  He said doesn't read ahead because he doesn't want to be influenced and he wants to make sure he's available to play a scene a certain way.   He said he only reads them a day or two before the start of filming.  The goes over each of his lines and tries them out in different tones to see what way might work best. 

So for example if Dean is upset at a situation in episode 2 but the solution comes in epiosde 7.  Jensen doesn't like to know that before he has to because Dean wouldn't know it.   He said if he knew it before hand he might change the way he has Dean react.   

I could listen to Jensen's approach to things all day

[Aeryn13]

Well, with Demon!Dean, he kinda had no choice as they shot the final episode first due to his directing. Hoping against hope that Michael!Dean isn`t over by episode 2 already. 

Quote

I could listen to Jensen's approach to things all day

Yes, I generally find him to be very thoughtful when it comes to the entire process of film-making. Yet, he isn`t so method as being creepy or rude. I`ve read from some actors who refused to even have a friendly lunch with a castmate, just because they are playing antagonists in a movie. That`s too far for me. If you can`t detach at all, then IMO acting is not the profession for you.   

[Res]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The AU soldiers don't know Dean.  They have no connection to him and since Michael probably killed many of their friends/family it would be intesting if it was TFW vs Bobby AU soliders.  Each wanting to find Dean for different reasons. 

So much potential for conflict that fits into the storyline organically, rather than just falling back on the over done, sad Sam, Sad "I don't belong anywhere Cas" and suddenly sad "I don't belong anywhere either Jack."

Guess which one lazyDabb is going for.

Misha said at his panel that Cas still feels like he doesn't belong, and now suddenly Jack feels that way.  And when Cas talks to Jack he starts to believe he does.  I really hope that plays out better than it sounds because Im going to feel even more resentful of Jack if after Dean spent the last 3 seasons fussing over, supporting Cas and his decisions, and suddenly one conversation with Jack Sue solves all Cas's problems its not going to sit well with me.

So, according to the tweet I read regarding MC, he said that in order to make Jack believe that Jack belonged, Cas had to start believing it too. And as Cas went through the reasons that Jack belong, Cas started to realize that all those reasons also applied to him so Cas finally started to believe what the brothers had been telling him all along. I'm not sure if that's better but it is believable as thought processes go, especially with people who have no-little self esteem.  But it's not Jack that give him a sense of belonging so much as convincing Jack opens Cas's mind to be convinced himself as he uses things that the brothers have told him in the process. 

Things I found discouraging in the gold panel tweets are that while Sam gets to have a little more beard , Jensen will not. Also, Jared's response to Jensen having only read 2 scripts supposedly was: "that's good for you". 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, I generally find him to be very thoughtful when it comes to the entire process of film-making. Yet, he isn`t so method as being creepy or rude. I`ve read from some actors who refused to even have a friendly lunch with a castmate, just because they are playing antagonists in a movie. That`s too far for me. If you can`t detach at all, then IMO acting is not the profession for you.   

This is why I'd rather have Jensen answer questions, rather than sometimes let Jared do it for him, which I why I sometimes find Jared's hi-jenks so irritating. But they are who they are. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Things I found discouraging in the gold panel tweets are that while Sam gets to have a little more beard , Jensen will not. Also, Jared's response to Jensen having only read 2 scripts supposedly was: "that's good for you". 

I guess I`m the lone fan here happy about the no-beard situation. Hee. 

As for that response, I wouldn`t make too much of it. To me it`s a typical Jared would say, no matter what was or wasn`t in the scripts. I don`t think it was any indication on the storyline. Now I do believe Dean!Michael will be short-lived. If he isn`t finished by episode 2 then most certainly within those first 6.   

[Reganne]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The AU soldiers don't know Dean.  They have no connection to him and since Michael probably killed many of their friends/family it would be intesting if it was TFW vs Bobby AU soliders.  Each wanting to find Dean for different reasons. 

So much potential for conflict that fits into the storyline organically, rather than just falling back on the over done, sad Sam, Sad "I don't belong anywhere Cas" and suddenly sad "I don't belong anywhere either Jack."

Guess which one lazyDabb is going for.

Misha said at his panel that Cas still feels like he doesn't belong, and now suddenly Jack feels that way.  And when Cas talks to Jack he starts to believe he does.  I really hope that plays out better than it sounds because Im going to feel even more resentful of Jack if after Dean spent the last 3 seasons fussing over, supporting Cas and his decisions, and suddenly one conversation with Jack Sue solves all Cas's problems its not going to sit well with me.

I would actually love the idea of there being conflict between TFW and the AU characters in regards of what is to be done with Michael/Dean.  I think that would be an interesting idea as the AU characters may not care as much what actually happens to Dean.  I would be especially interested if it caused conflict between AU Bobby and Mary.  IFK why though.  Lol

As far as what Sam, Cas and Jack feel in regards to the situation, the narrative can deal with that as well.  I dont think it would have to be one or the other,  and I think I would be disappointed if they just ignored what is happening in regards to the emotions of Cas, Jack and Sam.

[Res]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess I`m the lone fan here happy about the no-beard situation. Hee. 

As for that response, I wouldn`t make too much of it. To me it`s a typical Jared would say, no matter what was or wasn`t in the scripts. I don`t think it was any indication on the storyline. Now I do believe Dean!Michael will be short-lived. If he isn`t finished by episode 2 then most certainly within those first 6.   

I'm okay with Dean either way but prefer the scruffy look. 

I'm not making too much of Jared's responses either because Jared plays a lot at the cons. However, I will be completely shocked if Michael!Dean lasts more than 2 episodes without him being caught.

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I would actually love the idea of there being conflict between TFW and the AU characters in regards of what is to be done with Michael/Dean.  I think that would be an interesting idea as the AU characters may not care as much what actually happens to Dean.  I would be especially interested if it caused conflict between AU Bobby and Mary.  IFK why though.  Lol

As far as what Sam, Cas and Jack feel in regards to the situation, the narrative can deal with that as well.  I dont think it would have to be one or the other,  and I think I would be disappointed if they just ignored what is happening in regards to the emotions of Cas, Jack and Sam.

I don't normally agree with your posts but this one I completely agree with. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think that would be an interesting idea as the AU characters may not care as much what actually happens to Dean.

I think it would make lots of sense if they didn`t really care at all and just continued wanting Michael dead. They don`t know Dean, they have no reason to rally to help him. So that could make for some interesting dynamics overall.  What I wouldn`t want to see is playing this out between Bobby and Mary specifically because that would require m to believe in some genuine emotion from Ask-me-about-myself-Mary.

At this point, I wouldn`t believe any positive regards from her for her eldest son and I wouldn`t have faith in either the writing nor the acting to convince me otherwise. I`d believe it more if she was on the "he can`t be saved, aww, shucks, better kill him when we have the chance" train and that created conflict between her Sam/Cas/Jack.  

[Res]

According to JP, Script writers so far are currently 14.1: dabb, 14.2: buckleming 14.3: Berens.

[ILoveReading]

From @Jakes in regular spoilers.

Quote

Well right now Dabb outright says Lucifer is dead, dead--until otherwise that is what we got.  With Michael,  even if they use him(a very big maybe--could go in many different directions)...Sam was never his vehicle--hell it's more plausible they go back in time for John and our favorite GH doctor

If it comes time to vessel Michael 1.0 it will be done for heroic reasons.  So I don't see them bring back John to let him be the one to sacrifice.

If Dean fails to control AU Michael and needs to be saved by Jack or a spell then there it provides Dabb with an in story reason to give it to Sam.   It doesn't matter if Sam was never supposed to be his vessel.

Dean is supposed to be Michael's true vessel and make Michael stronger than ever yet Lucifer pretty much destroyed him.   It wasn't even a two sided fight.

If this was season 2 or 3 I might give the writers the benefit of the doubt but right now, nope.  

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Jakes in regular spoilers.

If it comes time to vessel Michael 1.0 it will be done for heroic reasons.  So I don't see them bring back John to let him be the one to sacrifice.

If Dean fails to control AU Michael and needs to be saved by Jack or a spell then there it provides Dabb with an in story reason to give it to Sam.   It doesn't matter if Sam was never supposed to be his vessel.

Dean is supposed to be Michael's true vessel and make Michael stronger than ever yet Lucifer pretty much destroyed him.   It wasn't even a two sided fight.

If this was season 2 or 3 I might give the writers the benefit of the doubt but right now, nope.  

Well since I don't dislike tptb, maybe I have more belief that if they use Michael it won't automatically be Sam.  With Dean's Michael fight...Lucifer was souped up on Jack--ordinary Michael even without Dean was kicking Lucifer ass.  That all said I still have no evidence for against them even using Michael...so this could all end up being academic.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean is supposed to be Michael's true vessel and make Michael stronger than ever yet Lucifer pretty much destroyed him.   It wasn't even a two sided fight.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that Lucifer was trying to kill AU Michael in that fight as much as he was Dean. When he had Dean at the complete disadvantage and was pummeling his face, he wasn't threatening AU Michael, it was personal between him and Dean and he  said something to the effect of  being able to kill Dean in other ways, then he said something like "See ya, Dean" and started the smiting thing.  That's when Sam threw the archangel blade up to Dean.  And he stabbed Lucifer.  IMO, if Lucifer is truly dead, it had to be AU Michael that did it to keep the rule of only an archangel can kill another archangel with the archangel blade.  ( LOL at me thinking they'll stick to their own rules LOL)

SO....if it was AU Michael, then maybe he had taken over for Dean because Dean was badly injured by Lucifer. I also, wonder about this because I thought the way Dean said "NO, we did it", his facial acting and body language didn't scream a triumphant or even stunned Dean to me.  I also think Dean wouldn't have been surprised about doing it together.  And I think he would have said "We finally did it, Sammy. We really did it".   I don't think he would have said "NO! WE did it". I can't really articulate the difference but it was different. I also thought upon first watch that it was really AU Michael shouting "We had a deal" because I thought Jensen sounded like Christian Keyes in that moment.

So....with all that said, here are my 100% likely to be wrong WAGs:

Lucifer injured Dean with the smiting and so AU Michael took over during the fight to kill Lucifer.  Then AU Michael was going to leave Dean's vessel badly injured  near death which is opposite of what OG Michael promised Dean and so it was Dean  AU Michael shouting 'We had a deal!" because Dean wouldn't let him leave so he could heal him. 

I think it would be fascinating if after the first 5 episodes of  s13 was Dean wanting to die, but feeling rejuvenated after Cas was resurrected, that he decided to use AU Michael to heal him. That is to say that Dean  is keeping AU Michael in him for his own reasons. So it's an internal battle between Dean wanting AU Michael to stay and AU Michael wanting out.  And Dean not allowing him to go. 

Or alternatively,  Lucifer injured AU Michael and Dean won't let him out even if he wants to leave. So maybe the fight isn't for Dean to be free of AU Michael, but rather for AU Michael to be trapped inside Dean because Dean will not let him out into the world. 

I would love it if we find out that before AU Michael possessed Dean that Dean and Cas hatched a plan that if Dean manages to kill Lucifer, that AU Michael must stay in him until Cas can find another way to get rid of AU Michael.

Maybe we'll get Cas talking to OG Michael and convinces him to let AU Michael possess him. 

***The only part that throws me off those WAGs is the "Thanks for the suit" thing after it was clear that AU Michael was in control. I dunno.

I just can't see Dean letting AU Michael go and risking the world. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

***The only part that throws me off those WAGs is the "Thanks for the suit" thing after it was clear that AU Michael was in control. I dunno.

That, and the answer (from someone?) that Michael's first agenda would be to discover the world around him.

My gut, and the back-handed 'heroics' of the last few seasons, tells me there is no way they are letting Dean be the hero in this arc. Not with the way he went into it (a rushed, last-ditch decision to save Sam and Jack - no mention of the world at large). That, and the "We had a deal", which despite my best efforts to fanwank that Dean knew going in that Michael wouldn't stick to it , reeks of big, dumb, jock Dean - Dabb & Singers favourite flavour of Dean. They can never let him have a clean win and they aren't going to start now.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That, and the answer (from someone?) that Michael's first agenda would be to discover the world around him.

My gut, and the back-handed 'heroics' of the last few seasons, tells me there is no way they are letting Dean be the hero in this arc. Not with the way he went into it (a rushed, last-ditch decision to save Sam and Jack - no mention of the world at large). That, and the "We had a deal", which despite my best efforts to fanwank that Dean knew going in that Michael wouldn't stick to it , reeks of big, dumb, jock Dean - Dabb & Singers favourite flavour of Dean. They can never let him have a clean win and they aren't going to start now.

Dean drove the blade in the kill is much more Sam's since he saved the day.   Even in s11 we had to have the pigeon lady soften Amara up before Dean go to her.

I also don't see Dean being allowed to overcome Michael on his own.  I figure Sam, Jack and Cas will do an exorcism and what a perfect place to put Michael, right into Nick's body so Dabb can continue his love affair with Mark P.  Plus, it effectively makes the story more about Sam.

[trxr4kids]

I don't get the MP love myself, IMO he has anti-charisma. I find almost every scene he's had since S5 boring and FFw'd worthy.

[Jonesy]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean drove the blade in the kill is much more Sam's since he saved the day.   Even in s11 we had to have the pigeon lady soften Amara up before Dean go to her.

I also don't see Dean being allowed to overcome Michael on his own.  I figure Sam, Jack and Cas will do an exorcism and what a perfect place to put Michael, right into Nick's body so Dabb can continue his love affair with Mark P.  Plus, it effectively makes the story more about Sam.

No one can overcome an archangel by themselves--Dean showing up at the cemetery saved Sam against Lucifer in season 5...it was both their victories as was the taking down of Lucifer last season.   Don't think Dean was being dumb in saying yes to Michael, it was a last desperate move to save Sam and Jack.   IMO he knew it might not hold, even if he said you promised.  And knowing the end result, Dean would do the same thing to save Sam and Jack.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Jakes

[Aeryn13]

Quote

No one can overcome an archangel by themselves

I think Sam pretty much did. Yeah, yeah, he looked at the car and the toy soldier but ultimately those are just things, he was the one who did it. So it obviously can be done.

Quote

 Don't think Dean was being dumb in saying yes to Michael, it was a last desperate move to save Sam and Jack.   IMO he knew it might not hold, even if he said you promised.  And knowing the end result, Dean would do the same thing to save Sam and Jack.

I wish they would focus more on the threat that Lucifer posed to the world. Letting AU!Michael roam free just for personal gain - which is what saving Sam and Jack amount to - is unheroic and disgusting. 

The episode did actually establish that Lucifer was a viable threat to the world. Stopping him for that reason and allowing Michael in actually is a heroic sacrifice. 

I know which narrative I`d like the show to run with. At least take both into account.   

[Jonesy]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Sam pretty much did. Yeah, yeah, he looked at the car and the toy soldier but ultimately those are just things, he was the one who did it. So it obviously can be done.

I wish they would focus more on the threat that Lucifer posed to the world. Letting AU!Michael roam free just for personal gain - which is what saving Sam and Jack amount to - is unheroic and disgusting. 

The episode did actually establish that Lucifer was a viable threat to the world. Stopping him for that reason and allowing Michael in actually is a heroic sacrifice. 

I know which narrative I`d like the show to run with. At least take both into account.   

I disagree--if Dean did not show up and spark him there is no way Sam resists Lucifer.  No way...I always thought that was as much as Dean's victory and why that did not bother me concerning Dean.    With Dean and Michael...he was trying save Sam and Dean--my view he knew it was a danger but also imo he knows Team Free Will 2.0 could reverse this because hell they've done bigger things before.

[Res]

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I disagree--if Dean did not show up and spark him there is no way Sam resists Lucifer.  No way...I always thought that was as much as Dean's victory and why that did not bother me concerning Dean.    With Dean and Michael...he was trying save Sam and Dean--my view he knew it was a danger but also imo he knows Team Free Will 2.0 could reverse this because hell they've done bigger things before.

I disagree with your disagreement, especially with the S5 finale. Dean showing up didn't help Sam resist Lucifer because Lucifer thoroughly kicked Dean's ass and dismantled his face. It wasn't until Sam saw the awesome toy soldier that Sam actually was able to fight. So Dean himself letting his brother's meatsuit whale on him did nothing to help Sam "spark". It's only the memories of what Dean did for him growing up that sparked him, not Dean himself. Which is part of the reason that I don't have as good an opinion of Sam as some.

[trxr4kids]

44 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Sam pretty much did. Yeah, yeah, he looked at the car and the toy soldier but ultimately those are just things, he was the one who did it. So it obviously can be done.

It's the perfect time for the Samulet to once again be crammed down our throats, blech!

49 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know which narrative I`d like the show to run with. At least take both into account.  

I couldn't agree more but I doubt we'll get what want. 

[Jonesy]

32 minutes ago, Res said:

I disagree with your disagreement, especially with the S5 finale. Dean showing up didn't help Sam resist Lucifer because Lucifer thoroughly kicked Dean's ass and dismantled his face. It wasn't until Sam saw the awesome toy soldier that Sam actually was able to fight. So Dean himself letting his brother's meatsuit whale on him did nothing to help Sam "spark". It's only the memories of what Dean did for him growing up that sparked him, not Dean himself. Which is part of the reason that I don't have as good an opinion of Sam as some.

To me you can't isolate it--Dean showing up created any possibilty for Sam.  If he didn't show up with his human free will...the archangel battle would have happened.  Everything that sparked with Sam started with Dean and much of what he remembered was about him and Dean together.  That's how I see it.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

With Dean and Michael...he was trying save Sam and Dean--my view he knew it was a danger but also imo he knows Team Free Will 2.0 could reverse this because hell they've done bigger things before.

I would be utterly disgusted with the character if his thought process was that careless and really that pathetic. The one time I actually hated him on the show was when he made the stupid deal in Season 2 but at least that, to the best of his knowledge, only affected himself. 

As for 5.22, I generally give not much, if any, credit to the "wind beneath my wings" person. So even if Dean "sparked" something, it would be rather meaningless to me in terms of support. Sam actually threw the archangel blade at a crucial time and thus provided tangible and highly important help in killing Lucifer. Now that, I see as important.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Sam pretty much did. Yeah, yeah, he looked at the car and the toy soldier but ultimately those are just things, he was the one who did it. So it obviously can be done.

Sam absolutely did it.  The only equivalent would've been Dean gaining strength to take Lucifer down by seeing Sam suffering - and then doing it. If only there were some green army men in the stained glass.... 

Edited July 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

With Dean and Michael...he was trying save Sam and Dean--my view he knew it was a danger but also imo he knows Team Free Will 2.0 could reverse this because hell they've done bigger things before.

 

This would be really selfish on Dean's part to risk the whole world on the off chance that Sam and the others could clean up his mess. 

What would happen if Sam crossed paths with another demon or another dog?  Dean would be taking a big risk.

If the amulet fell out of Dean's pocket and he had some memories of Sam, and that allowed him to use Michael's powers to call the blade, then it would be equal to Swan Song for me.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Casseiopeia]

52 minutes ago, Res said:

I disagree with your disagreement, especially with the S5 finale. Dean showing up didn't help Sam resist Lucifer because Lucifer thoroughly kicked Dean's ass and dismantled his face. It wasn't until Sam saw the awesome toy soldier that Sam actually was able to fight. So Dean himself letting his brother's meatsuit whale on him did nothing to help Sam "spark". It's only the memories of what Dean did for him growing up that sparked him, not Dean himself. Which is part of the reason that I don't have as good an opinion of Sam as some.

Can I disagree?  It wasn't like Sam saw the toy and all of a sudden remembered how much Dean loved him. I don't think it was Sam who was overwhelmed with the memories of the love he and Dean felt for each other.   I think initially it was Lucifer.  He couldn't handle the flood of emotions (something angels were both incapable of and confused by) and for that instant Sam was able to take control.  The look on Lucifer/Sam's face when he saw the toy soldier was one of confusion.. The first time I watched SS that was how I interpreted that scene.  

Edited July 16, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If the amulet feel out of Dean's pocket and he had some memories of Sam, and that allowed him to use Michael's powers to call the blade, then it would be equal to Swan Song for me.

Heheh. Perfect. And then followed up by two full seasons of story arc for Dean about the personal repercussions of his sacrifice.

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think it was Sam who was overwhelmed with the memories of the love he and Dean felt for each other.   I think initially it was Lucifer. 

I've read this a lot and IMO it doesn't paint Sam in a favorable light.

[Casseiopeia]

45 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I've read this a lot and IMO it doesn't paint Sam in a favorable light.

We have to assume that Sam was screaming inside Lucifer fighting with everything he had while Lucifer was letting him feel every sickening blow to Dean.  Earlier in the episode Lucifer killed all of Azazel's army.  He looked in the mirror at Sam and asked "are we having fun yet?".  Sam looked horrified.  He knew right then that he was powerless to stop Lucifer.  I've thought about that scene a lot.  To me the final fight was an effort by  Team Free Will + Baby.  It was no mistake that Kripke started the episode talking about the Impala.  As Chuck said it was the most important object in the universe.  She wasn't just a mode of transportation for Dean and the army man.  Dean stopped the fight, Cas gave Dean 5 minutes after frying Michael, Bobby also distracted Lucifer for a moment.  Dean kept letting Sam know he was there, holding on and Baby (not kidding here I honestly believe this) distracted Lucifer by flashing her window in his eyes letting him focus on the toy.  As I said Sam wasn't being reminded of Dean's love, he already knew that.   What that moment did was allow all of the love between Sam and Dean flood Lucifer, just long enough for Sam to gain control....everyone contributed to caging Lucifer.   It wasn't just Sam.  He made the sacrifice but he couldn't have done it without everyone's help.

I have always thought that the Impala was more than just a car. She has "died" and come back almost as much as the Winchesters (even though it was impossible in most cases). One of the best episodes ever (for me) was Baby.  Finally the Impala was acknowledged for her magical powers.  In that episode she gathered all the objects that Dean would need to defeat the monster.  I loved that!

Edited July 16, 2018 by Casseiopeia