These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

it's that I think it would make Dean either look reckless or like an idiot for doing it, since there is no guarantee for me that Michael will do anything he might promise to Dean. No matter how good he makes it sound, there's generally a loophole somewhere

It's not like Dean hasn't been reckless before. Look at that MoC storyline. Look at him selling his soul for Sam and all that wrought. He was reckless in AT. I think he does all of it with good intentions which doesn't erase it being reckless.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I really don't see this as any different than Sam saying yes.  He was putting the fate or the entire world at stake and taking a huge risk that he could overcome Lucifer when he failed twice against lesser opponents.

If Dean says yes, I can see it being about saving people, so there might be a recklessness to it, but it would be done with the exact same motivation as Sam.  I think Dean is stronger than the show likes to give him credit for, and I can see him fighting Michael every step of the way.

Yup. And if he failed, he was letting Lucifer loose on the world in his ideal vessel. Good thing it was Sammy ;)  I do hope Dean is allowed such a victory, even if it takes Sam waving a little green army man in his face to do it.

[AwesomO4000]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not like Dean hasn't been reckless before. Look at that MoC storyline. Look at him selling his soul for Sam and all that wrought. He was reckless in AT. I think he does all of it with good intentions which doesn't erase it being reckless.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that I like the fallout from these storylines or especially that Dean (and Sam, too) seem(s) to remake the same mistakes... especially in the case of the MoC storyline fallout where, despite Dean's recklessness in taking it to begin with, somehow in that arc, the worst world-endangering fallout from it all ended up on Sam's head. Kind of like Dean making the deal also.

That's the kind of thing I don't want repeating itself here with potential Michael, but unfortunately that's the way the brothers seem to be wired... They aren't going to go "well my brother made a reckless / stupid decision... screw him, he'll just have to live with the consequences"... they are going to go do something equally reckless / stupid to save said brother's ass, usually causing just as many if not more problems - the MoC being a case in point, with releasing Amara being worse than the MoC/Demon Dean problem - and that goes in both directions... lather, rinse, repeat.

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yup. And if he failed, he was letting Lucifer loose on the world in his ideal vessel.

Well, yes, but I guess I don't understand why if this was considered such an ill-advised, reckless idea when Sam did it - which it pretty much was based on the six-figure death toll fallout - why fans would want Dean to do the same kind of ill-advised, reckless thing? ...especially after the experience they've both had in supposedly learning not to do those kinds of things. Unless with Dean it's supposed to be somehow okay to make those kinds of ill-advised, reckless decisions and there is no fallout at all... in which case, I will be disappointed in the show, because that would seem to be a bit hypocritical to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, yes, but I guess I don't understand why if this was considered such an ill-advised, reckless idea when Sam did it - which it pretty much was based on the six-figure death toll fallout - why fans would want Dean to do the same kind of ill-advised, reckless thing? ...especially after the experience they've both had in supposedly learning not to do those kinds of things. Unless with Dean it's supposed to be somehow okay to make those kinds of ill-advised, reckless decisions and there is no fallout at all... in which case, I will be disappointed in the show, because that would seem to be a bit hypocritical to me.

Because they let Sam succeed, despite the recklessness of it. Now I want to see Dean do the same.

[AwesomO4000]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because they let Sam succeed, despite the recklessness of it. Now I want to see Dean do the same.

They let Sam succeed - after failing. A lot. As I said, there was a direct consequence of a 6 digit death toll for Sam saying "yes." And his previous reckless decisions got him branded as a traitor to his brother and got him tagged with the stigma of starting the apocalypse for years in the hunting world... enough so that hunters were trying to (and actually did) murder him, and some were still holding grudges 5 years later. His recklessness with the MoC Book of the Damned cure meant he started another apocalypse and a few thousand more people died. In other words, there were significant consequences for Sam's recklessness. Castiel also had similar bad consequences with a big death toll for his reckless choices.

Dean has already done reckless things and succeeded before - such as becoming Death for a day and still getting Sam back, or taking the mark of Cain and defeating Abbadon, the Gadreel incident which saved Sam, killing Death to save Sam - generally with way less fallout.

If your wanting to see Dean do the same includes you being okay with Dean having grave consequences for his recklessness first - such as causing an apocalypse and/or causing 10s of thousands of people to die first before he has that success - then okay. I personally wouldn't want to see that for Dean, but okay. If you just want Dean to succeed after making a reckless decision like that with no significant consequences first, then in my opinion that's not the same thing. That's more looking like that if Sam does something reckless, there should be consequences, but if Dean does it, it's fine, and nothing bad should happen.

And if the show did something like that, I wouldn't like that message, because it would seem hypocritical to me.

I'd much rather Dean not make a reckless decision in the first place and the brothers work together to save the world / solve the problem... much like season 6 and 7.

Edited April 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000
because "your" isn't the same thing as "you're." Stupid grammar. ; )

[Reganne]

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

If your wanting to see Dean do the same includes you being okay with Dean having grave consequences for his recklessness first - such as causing an apocalypse and/or causing 10s of thousands of people to die first before he has that success - then okay. I personally wouldn't want to see that for Dean, but okay. If you just want Dean to succeed after making a reckless decision like that with no significant consequences first, then in my opinion that's not the same thing. That's more looking like that if Sam does something reckless, there should be consequences, but if Dean does it, it's fine, and nothing bad should happen.

 

 

Though I don't think the show necessarily needs to make everything exactly equal for Sam and Dean, I do hope that Dean becoming this new entity doesn't have anything to do with Sam.  As in, not Sam's mistakes or failures.  Sam's mistakes have been way overdone and with his lack of hunting skills this year so far, I would like to see them do something different with Sam.  Sometimes I feel the narrative almost paints Sam as a burden on Dean, especially this season and past childhood flashbacks.  I don't want Dean to have to say 'yes' for example to save weak, unable to defend himself Sam.  In other words, because Sam failed again.  I'm ok with it happening now and then (it does happen to other characters sometimes), but this season it has been too much with Sam getting knocked out all the time and needing saving.  

 

I would much rather it be to save the world or right a mistake that Dean himself has made.  I am ok with either.  

Edited April 25, 2018 by Reganne

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

They let Sam succeed - after failing. A lot. As I said, there was a direct consequence of a 6 digit death toll for Sam saying "yes." And his previous reckless decisions got him branded as a traitor to his brother and got him tagged with the stigma of starting the apocalypse for years in the hunting world... enough so that hunters were trying to (and actually did) murder him, and some were still holding grudges 5 years later. His recklessness with the MoC Book of the Damned cure meant he started another apocalypse and a few thousand more people died. In other words, there were significant consequences for Sam's recklessness. Castiel also had similar bad consequences with a big death toll for his reckless choices.

Dean has already done reckless things and succeeded before - such as becoming Death for a day and still getting Sam back, or taking the mark of Cain and defeating Abbadon, the Gadreel incident which saved Sam, killing Death to save Sam - generally with way less fallout.

If your wanting to see Dean do the same includes you being okay with Dean having grave consequences for his recklessness first - such as causing an apocalypse and/or causing 10s of thousands of people to die first before he has that success - then okay. I personally wouldn't want to see that for Dean, but okay. If you just want Dean to succeed after making a reckless decision like that with no significant consequences first, then in my opinion that's not the same thing. That's more looking like that if Sam does something reckless, there should be consequences, but if Dean does it, it's fine, and nothing bad should happen.

And if the show did something like that, I wouldn't like that message, because it would seem hypocritical to me.

I'd much rather Dean not make a reckless decision in the first place and the brothers work together to save the world / solve the problem... much like season 6 and 7.

Yeah, we clearly don't see things the same way, but that's cool. And honestly, if it gets Dean some quality writing and ends with a BDH moment for him, I'm okay with it if it gets messy along the way.

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

they decided that Sam's MO is being broody and uptight. 

IMO, Sam's always been that way going back to s1. That's not a knock on Sam either.. It's part of his personality IMO aka Sam's bitchface which has been present since s1 and is one of the consistent things about Sam's characterization. What is new however is his apparent reticence to save Mary.

LOLOLOLOL at Dabb and Singer.

It's so obvious what they are doing.

This is s1 redux.  Dean is itching to get out there and save Mary and Jack, which really Sam, suddenly Jack, the one you dragged Dean over the coals for not liking and you were treating like your little brother, it's just not that important now?

I am calling it right now. There is going to be dialogue in tonight's episode continuing on from that sneak peek, that will be almost exactly what Dean said to Sam in s1 when Sam was itching to find John and get vengeance on Azazel and Dean was like not if getting to Azazel gets Sam killed. And it will be Sam saying something like that about Dean wanting to find Mary and Jack.

The problem is that it makes NO SENSE for Sam to have this complete about face and honestly, more so WRT to Jack than Mary, given his attachment and identification with Jack. It made even less sense for Dean to become kind of  "zen" about Mary right after he put a gun in Kaia's face and now he's back to "LET'S GO!!!"

I see you, Dabb. I see you, Singer. 

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am calling it right now. There is going to be dialogue in tonight's episode continuing on from that sneak peek, that will be almost exactly what Dean said to Sam in s1 when Sam was itching to find John and get vengeance on Azazel and Dean was like not if getting to Azazel gets Sam killed. And it will be Sam saying something like that about Dean wanting to find Mary and Jack.

I agee with this.  I'm also expecting a Rah Rah cheerleader speech from Sam about why Gabriel should help the cause.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is from Sir Francis Bacon's essay 'On Revenge'.

So if I'm right, and this is a s1 redux and Dabb is attempting to rewrite s1 with Sam in Dean's role, then this episode is going to be about Dean wanting vengeance and Sam will lecture him on why it's wrong.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Sam actually quotes this or restates it in his own words.

I see you, Dabb. I see you, Singer.

Here is the essay. http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/revenge/revenge.html

This part stood out to me

Quote

Certainly, in taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior; for it is a prince's part to pardon. And Solomon, I am sure, saith, It is the glory of a man, to pass by an offence. That which is past is gone, and irrevocable; and wise men have enough to do, with things present and to come; therefore they do but trifle with themselves, that labor in past matters.

This is totally going to be why Sam is willing to work with Gabriel and Lucifer and everyone else who did him wrong. And that this will be the basis of Sam's argument to Dean about vengeance. This is SO going to happen.

One other thing. Solomon has been mentioned A LOT this season. I wonder where that is going.

[Bergamot]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is totally going to be why Sam is willing to work with Gabriel and Lucifer and everyone else who did him wrong. And that this will be the basis of Sam's argument to Dean about vengeance.

Maybe! But wasn't Dean already totally on board with working with Gabriel? That's why he was so upset to find out that Gabriel had bailed on them.

My initial thought, based on the official synopsis of the episode, was that the quote is related to Gabriel's desire for revenge on the gods who sold him to Asmodeus. The synopsis says that Gabriel drags Dean and Sam into his plot for revenge.

I could be wrong, but I had the feeling that everyone was supposed to be totally over any anger at Gabriel for his past acts, because he is such a cute, charming, and entertaining fellow. Personally, I may dislike him, but I got the impression that the writers were assuming that everyone in the audience loves him. (On this show you can almost always tell which characters the writers feel that way about.)

[catrox14]

Just now, Bergamot said:

Maybe! But wasn't Dean already totally on board with working with Gabriel? That's why he was so upset to find out that Gabriel had bailed on them.

Dean made an assumption that Gabriel would be on board, which I don't why he would.

He didn't know that Gabriel was alive until the last moment. Then he left for AU, came back and flipped out that he wasn't on board. That made no sense to me.

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I could be wrong, but I had the feeling that everyone was supposed to be totally over any anger at Gabriel for his past acts, because he is such a cute, charming, and entertaining fellow. Personally, I may dislike him, but I got the impression that the writers were assuming that everyone in the audience loves him. (On this show you can almost always tell which characters the writers feel that way about.)

They are sorely misjudging a fair part of the audience that doesn't love him.  The writers love him. They want to make us feel sorry for that poor thing. 

Neither should be over his past acts because they haven't been around each other since Gabriel "died".

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

This is from Sir Francis Bacon's essay 'On Revenge'.

So if I'm right, and this is a s1 redux and Dabb is attempting to rewrite s1 with Sam in Dean's role, then this episode is going to be about Dean wanting vengeance and Sam will lecture him on why it's wrong.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Sam actually quotes this or restates it in his own words.

I see you, Dabb. I see you, Singer.

Here is the essay. http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/revenge/revenge.html

This part stood out to me

This is totally going to be why Sam is willing to work with Gabriel and Lucifer and everyone else who did him wrong. And that this will be the basis of Sam's argument to Dean about vengeance. This is SO going to happen.

One other thing. Solomon has been mentioned A LOT this season. I wonder where that is going.

Perhaps?  But I think it's more about Gabriel seeking revenge on those who captured him -- at least that's the episode description.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

This is from Sir Francis Bacon's essay 'On Revenge'.

So if I'm right, and this is a s1 redux and Dabb is attempting to rewrite s1 with Sam in Dean's role, then this episode is going to be about Dean wanting vengeance and Sam will lecture him on why it's wrong.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Sam actually quotes this or restates it in his own words.

I see you, Dabb. I see you, Singer.

Here is the essay. http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/revenge/revenge.html

This part stood out to me

This is totally going to be why Sam is willing to work with Gabriel and Lucifer and everyone else who did him wrong. And that this will be the basis of Sam's argument to Dean about vengeance. This is SO going to happen.

One other thing. Solomon has been mentioned A LOT this season. I wonder where that is going.

IMO, the part Dabb quoted screams that someone is going to be "schooled" on something about revenge in this one-unfortunately, the quoted part that he picked makes me believe that it will be one or both of the brothers who's going to be on the receiving end of that schooling for judging poor, poor Gabriel for 1)wanting his revenge(which would be ridiculous, IMO, since both brothers have experienced the need for revenge and all that goes along with it-so honestly, I'm not seeing any need for them to be schooled on that like At. All.) and 2) putting himself and his own wishes/needs before that of others-which I can just hear Speight gleefully mouthing words about how hypocritical is it of them to deny him his revenge, which will of course chasten them(or one of them) enough to go along with him on his revenge plan.

Now just a few episodes ago, Dean was willing to give Ketch anything he wanted in exchange for the angel grace, so logically, even going just by this season, Dean, at least, doesn't need to be schooled on this issue-and I just watched The Chitters on TNT less than an hour ago and Dean's outlook on revenge was, you have to let people have it, even if it isn't going to "fix" them or magically make everything better-and Sam should know this, too so I'm not seeing the need for him to be schooled on it either. But these writers can't remember/don't know what happened last episode, nevermind in past seasons, so I'm expecting more ridiculous writing, yes, in order to prop Gabriel's need for revenge and get the brothers to go along with him and his revenge plan.

How it will pan out in the end, is anybody's guess with this bunch. Maybe he won't get it, but he will decide to help them anyway because they at least tried to help him-and lo, Noble Gabriel will be born out of the ashes of Asshole Gabriel; and within that scenario, he at least gets a bit of schooling also.

I'm more leaning towards them helping him actually achieve his revenge and then he opts to help them, though. It seems more Dabb/Singer's style, to me. The other way seems like it would simply be way too complicated for them to even think of it.

[Myrelle]

This one will probably be more Gabriel's episode than anyone else's, similarly to how last week's was more Rowena's.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This one will probably be more Gabriel's episode than anyone else's, similarly to how last week's was more Rowena's.

Since focusing on more than one thing is beyond these writers Im guessing next week will be more Sam's episode because it the one where Sam is supposed to go through something.  Im guessing 22 might be Mary and hopefully the finale will be Dean's ep.

Edited April 26, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Im guessing next week will be more Sam's episode because it the one where Sam is supposed to go through something.

IA.

I've not been expecting anything that will even have the possibility of thrilling me until 22/23.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Perhaps?  But I think it's more about Gabriel seeking revenge on those who captured him -- at least that's the episode description.

And don't most episodes use other characters to highlight stuff with the brothers?  It's a thing they have done forever. Have episode descriptions become more reliable? I'm not being snarky.

[catrox14]

I do think Gabriel is the throughline and the A story but it will eventually apply to the brothers in some way.

That said, my point is more that even that sneak peek had all the earmarks of s1 role reversal of Dean and Sam.  IMO, there is something to how Jared is playing Sam with underlying reluctance to really take any action that will move them to the AU again. It's just...peculiar. And that is what is giving me that s1 vibe with the roles reversed.  Not just them flip flopping in general since 13.09 but the whole....thing.  The whoel vibe.  YMMV

ETA: I saw some interesting spec on Twitter or Tumblr? I can't remember, that maybe Dean is going to be Jesse.  That never even occurred to me, but that would be pretty interesting.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam's always been that way going back to s1. That's not a knock on Sam either.. It's part of his personality IMO aka Sam's bitchface which has been present since s1 and is one of the consistent things about Sam's characterization. What is new however is his apparent reticence to save Mary.

I'd argue that what has changed is the context for grumpy!Sam. Like, in season 1, it made sense that Sam would grumble about Dean stealing, because he had just spent three years out of hunting trying to live a straight-arrow, civilian life. At this point, Sam's been a full time hunter for over a decade, with all of the routine law-breaking it entails. So when Sam's like "we're stealing, now?" it doesn't even make sense. Though I don't have specific examples, I also think his joylessness and tendency to sigh disapprovingly at Dean has been exaggerated, and often appears with less justification than it did in, say, the days when Sam was bent on getting revenge on Jess's killer or dead-set on saving Dean from his deal. 

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since focusing on more than one thing is beyond these writers Im guessing next week will be more Sam's episode because it the one where Sam is supposed to go through something.  Im guessing 22 might be Mary and hopefully the finale will be Dean's ep.

Ugh. I forgot about the Ice Maiden, so scratch 22 for me also.

I am wondering when(or if) AUMichael is finally going to make it through to our world, though.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Ugh. I forgot about the Ice Maiden, so scratch 22 for me also.

 

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'd argue that what has changed is the context for grumpy!Sam. Like, in season 1, it made sense that Sam would grumble about Dean stealing, because he had just spent three years out of hunting trying to live a straight-arrow, civilian life. At this point, Sam's been a full time hunter for over a decade, with all of the routine law-breaking it entails. So when Sam's like "we're stealing, now?" it doesn't even make sense. Though I don't have specific examples, I also think his joylessness and tendency to sigh disapprovingly at Dean has been exaggerated, and often appears with less justification than it did in, say, the days when Sam was bent on getting revenge on Jess's killer or dead-set on saving Dean from his deal. 

Re Sam, I agree it is more exaggerated now and still not OOC. Like Dean's eating. He's been known to eat many things but he's not so stupid as to keep a burger under his bed. Him keeping emergency pie under the bed? I 100% believe he would do that especially if it's the preservative filled pie from a Gas N Sip, kind of like I was assuming was the case with the pie that Sam found in Dean's room in s10 after Dean took off. But a burger? Something that would rot and smell bad and potentially make him really sick and maybe even deadly? I don't see that at all. 

[ILoveReading]

https://www.themarysue.com/richard-speight-alexander-calvert-supernatural-interview/

I should have gone to see Infinity Wars tonight. 

Mean Dean is mean towards poor Gabriel. 

 

Quote

That might affect his relationship with the Winchesters, but possibly for the better, at least as far as the taller one is concerned. While Dean (Jensen Ackles) has always shared a more profound bond with Castiel (Misha Collins), it’s Sam (Jared Padalecki) who’s had the most connection with the erstwhile trickster, and there’s good reason for that, according to Speight: “I think Gabriel has always had a soft spot, or softer spot, for Sam … Gabriel deals with these alpha older brothers, especially Lucifer, that have just been the bane of his existence. And I think that sort of Alpha, Dean-ness that Jensen brings to the character can really spark a negative response in Gabriel, whereas Sam’s approach is typically on the less heavy-handed side … Though Gabriel against his own instincts, likes them both, there’s something less abrasive about Sam that he relates better to.”

I knew they were going to try and co-opt "profound bond" for Sam and Gabriel.

What relationship? Gabriel always interacted with Dean more.  It was Dean Gabriel responded to in Hammer of the Gods. 

Sam and Dean havent' given Gabriel a single thought since his death but suddenly there is a connection between him and Sam. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

knew they were going to try and co-opt "profound bond" for Sam and Gabriel.

What relationship? Gabriel always interacted with Dean more.  It was Dean Gabriel responded to in Hammer of the Gods. 

Sam and Dean havent' given Gabriel a single thought since his death but suddenly there is a connection between him and Sam. 

LOLOL. This is so hilariously obvious to discourage Destiel shippers. I mean seriously.  WTF?

Well, sorry, writers. I am never going to stop shipping Dean and Cas. Never. 

And holy cow. Seriously. Sam and Gabriel have no relationship. It's really pretty sad that the show keeps trying to give Sam these same kinds of "bonds" with other characters who have only ever harmed him badly and tormented Dean. Why do they do this to Sam??

That said, I'm seriously starting to wonder if the show is starting to push a Sam = Jesus thing.

Gabriel had a soft spot for Sam??? LOLOLOL

Really? Tormenting him by murdering Dean over and over and trapping him in a game show where Sam gets his balls whacked? Sure, that's some soft spot.  Whoooo boy. This is some serious retconning of Gabriel's "relationship" with Sam. I'm literally laughing at how stupid this is. Do the writers really think we have forgotten Mystery Spot or Changing Channels?

Sigh.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

lly Lucifer, that have just been the bane of his existence. And I think that sort of Alpha, Dean-ness that Jensen brings to the character can really spark a negative response in Gabriel, whereas Sam’s approach is typically on the less heavy-han

So wait, Dick is comparing Dean to Lucifer?? And not Michael? And yes, @ILoveReading, Dean is the one that chewed out Gabriel about being too weak or whatever to stand up to his family. 

OMG show you can't make me feel sorry for Gabriel because you woobify him and make Sam be nicer to him than Dean. 

Sounds like someone is jealous of Dean Winchester.

Edited April 26, 2018 by catrox14

[belbar]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Quote

That might affect his relationship with the Winchesters, but possibly for the better, at least as far as the taller one is concerned. While Dean (Jensen Ackles) has always shared a more profound bond with Castiel (Misha Collins), it’s Sam (Jared Padalecki) who’s had the most connection with the erstwhile trickster, and there’s good reason for that, according to Speight: “I think Gabriel has always had a soft spot, or softer spot, for Sam … Gabriel deals with these alpha older brothers, especially Lucifer, that have just been the bane of his existence. And I think that sort of Alpha, Dean-ness that Jensen brings to the character can really spark a negative response in Gabriel, whereas Sam’s approach is typically on the less heavy-handed side … Though Gabriel against his own instincts, likes them both, there’s something less abrasive about Sam that he relates better to.”

I'm sorry to say that is this kind of comments that cement my not so good opinion about Speights. YMMV

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

I'm sorry to say that is this kind of comments that cement my not so good opinion about Speights. YMMV

I honestly feel like between this interview and the one from JMI, that there is some kind of weird thing between Dick and Jensen.  It's almost like Dick is saying that it's Jensen is letting himself bleed too far into Dean vs Jensen ACTING and making those acting choices that makes Dean who he is. Also, Dean isn't your typical Alpha Male either. He's so much more. 

And given that Dick is directing this episode, well, this doesn't bode well.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I honestly feel like between this interview and the one from JMI, that there is some kind of weird thing between Dick and Jensen.  It's almost like Dick is saying that it's Jensen is letting himself bleed too far into Dean vs Jensen ACTING and making those acting choices that makes Dean who he is. Also, Dean isn't your typical Alpha Male either. He's so much more. 

And given that Dick is directing this episode, well, this doesn't bode well.

I honestly don't think that is anything against Jensen. Not here, not in the show. I think that Jensen is liked and well respected. IMO.

What I think is that this is more like riding the winning wave. In Singer's view the show is about Sam the heroic victim of an injustice, and Dean is merely the sidekick. After all, that was Kripke's original idea. He's keeping the show and the characters stuck in this basic level. Kripke saw the potential was not in the MOTW episodes as he originally intended, but in the brothers relationship, and was smat enough to change the course of the show. Singer on the other hand, always IMHO, has an old school boy view of it all. He's a business man. Budget is his concern. And I think that the way he thinks is that it originally worked that way. It's not broken, don't fix it. It's that kind of mentality, hence the endless cycle on rinse and repeat.

This is not only Dabb's reign. I think that Singer is the one imposing the limits. Speights is not stupid. He knows who is the winner horse here. And that's his bet. The hero of the show is Sam. That's exactly the one I love and the one I've a deep bond with. Simple.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, belbar said:

I honestly don't think that is anything against Jensen. Not here, not in the show. I think that Jensen is liked and well respected. IMO.

I dunno. He takes a lot of pot shots at Jensen at cons and maybe it's all in good fun. That said, it seems like he doesn't really give Jensen any credit for his acting here. He didn't say something like "Jensen is great at really creating that kind of alpha male thing that Gabriel doesn't like" That's a totally different thing than what he said. That's my interpretation. And we can agree to disagree on that point.

[Reganne]

I gotta say, it's nice to see an actor say their character is more fond of Sam.  It doesn't really happen much in the show.  It's usually Dean who has the better bonds with all the characters... unless the writers plan to kill them off after 2 or 3 episodes like Eilleen or Sarah or Madison.  The writers even make sure to let the audience know that Dean is the favourite like with Castiels more profound bond and Bobby saying Dean is his favourite. 

I know people don't like it here, but I am glad this season is at least giving that to Sam more.  It almost makes up for Sam's less than stellar hunting skills this season.  

[belbar]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno. He takes a lot of pot shots at Jensen at cons and maybe it's all in good fun. That said, it seems like he doesn't really give Jensen any credit for his acting here. He didn't say something like "Jensen is great at really creating that kind of alpha male thing that Gabriel doesn't like" That's a totally different thing than what he said. That's my interpretation. And we can agree to disagree on that point.

Yes I've noticed that kind of comments on his part. I don't llike them, but I think that all the cons  and even interview comments are still part of the job. I know that many people think that they're pouring their hearts in it. I wouldn't put my money on it though. Sure they're more relaxed in that enviroment. They have better chances to talk for themselves but it's still work.

So what I mean is that I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you. I honestly don't have a clue. After all everything about Gabriel and even Speights has been a little dubious. Gabriel was a dick who showed up in a couple of episodes and then, all of a sudden,  he's everywhere. In the cons he's the ringsmaster, he's directing episodes right and left (and let's be honest he's imposing that view in them too), and now he returns from the dead as an acclaimed and loved character. How the hell did that happen. Maybe the sneaky way is working great.

But then again, your guess is as good as mine.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.themarysue.com/richard-speight-alexander-calvert-supernatural-interview/

I should have gone to see Infinity Wars tonight. 

Mean Dean is mean towards poor Gabriel. 

 

I knew they were going to try and co-opt "profound bond" for Sam and Gabriel.

What relationship? Gabriel always interacted with Dean more.  It was Dean Gabriel responded to in Hammer of the Gods. 

Sam and Dean havent' given Gabriel a single thought since his death but suddenly there is a connection between him and Sam. 

Scoop! I found the fabled SPN writers' bible (or at least the chapters that apply to this episode).

SPN writers guide

I like Rich as a con host, but his thoughts about the show? Just... no.

Maybe Sam is just a bit of a masochist? To have such empathy for someone who abused him to the point of a near-mental breakdown? Who, as it turns out, ran away from the fight and hid out like a selfish coward? And then when he helps him to recover his grace after years of torture, once again fucks off to leave them on their own? Yeah, I'd say there are some issues there.

[Castiels Cat]

27 minutes ago, belbar said:

I honestly don't think that is anything against Jensen. Not here, not in the show. I think that Jensen is liked and well respected. IMO.

What I think is that this is more like riding the winning wave. In Singer's view the show is about Sam the heroic victim of an injustice, and Dean is merely the sidekick. After all, that was Kripke's original idea. He's keeping the show and the characters stuck in this basic level. Kripke saw the potential was not in the MOTW episodes as he originally intended, but in the brothers relationship, and was smat enough to change the course of the show. Singer on the other hand, always IMHO, has an old school boy view of it all. He's a business man. Budget is his concern. And I think that the way he thinks is that it originally worked that way. It's not broken, don't fix it. It's that kind of mentality, hence the endless cycle on rinse and repeat.

This is not only Dabb's reign. I think that Singer is the one imposing the limits. Speights is not stupid. He knows who is the winner horse here. And that's his bet. The hero of the show is Sam. That's exactly the one I love and the one I've a deep bond with. Simple.

While I agree that this was the original concept of the show they do seem to be working with Dean as the BDH and Sam as the sensitive caretaking sidekick this season.  I think they have finally switched the  formula after fighting the fact that Dean was the iconic standout character for 12 seasons.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I gotta say, it's nice to see an actor say their character is more fond of Sam.  It doesn't really happen much in the show.  It's usually Dean who has the better bonds with all the characters... unless the writers plan to kill them off after 2 or 3 episodes like Eilleen or Sarah or Madison.  The writers even make sure to let the audience know that Dean is the favourite like with Castiels more profound bond and Bobby saying Dean is his favourite. 

I know people don't like it here, but I am glad this season is at least giving that to Sam more.  It almost makes up for Sam's less than stellar hunting skills this season.  

Its not that characters prefer Sam, its when the reasoning doesn't fit that I side eye.  An interview with Shoshanna, or Mark P or Gen P, or Ruth  and I would expect them to talk more about their characters relationship with Sam.

But Richard is erasing a lot of history to force a non existent relationship with Sam.  Sam's 'I need you' was seriously a big WTF moment because why?  That come out of nowhere based on character interactions.  Gabriel killed Dean over and over and put Sam through the ringer to make him learn a lesson.  He was always the antagonist and neither Dean nor Sam seemed all that broken up about his death or gave him a second thought. 

It was Dean's that Gabe responded to, so saying that Gabriel doesn't respond to Dean's abrasiveness isn't true.  Because it was Dean that helped convince Gabe to fight. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its not that characters prefer Sam, its when the reasoning doesn't fit that I side eye.  An interview with Shoshanna, or Mark P or Gen P, and I would expect them to talk more about their characters relationship with Sam.

But Richard is erasing a lot of history to force a non existent relationship with Sam.  Sam's 'I need you' was seriously a big WTF moment because why?  That come out of nowhere based on character interactions.  Gabriel killed Dean over and over and put Sam through the ringer to make him learn a lesson.  He was always the antogonist and neither Dean nor Sam seemed all that broken up about his death or gave him a 2nd thought. 

It was Dean's that Gabe responded to, so saying that Gabriel doesn't respond to Dean's abrasiveness isn't true.  Because it was Dean that helped convince Gabe to fight. 

At

The thing is though, the show isn't over.  He is most likely talking about his interactions with Sam in the moment and the two characters had those moments in the last episode they were in.  So while Yes Dean was able to get Gabriel on board in season five, maybe what Sam is doing this season is connecting with Gabriel more.  The writers didn't really give Sam those moments in season 5.  Probably bc Dean was more the leader.  It doesn't necessarily mean that bc of that Gabriel would bond with Dean more.  There wasn't really bonding between them in season 5 anyway.  More Dean telling Gabriel what he thought.

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Scoop! I found the fabled SPN writers' bible (or at least the chapters that apply to this episode).

SPN writers guide

I like Rich as a con host, but his thoughts about the show? Just... no.

Maybe Sam is just a bit of a masochist? To have such empathy for someone who abused him to the point of a near-mental breakdown? Who, as it turns out, ran away from the fight and hid out like a selfish coward? And then when he helps him to recover his grace after years of torture, once again fucks off to leave them on their own? Yeah, I'd say there are some issues there.

They have to give Sam something to do whilst Dean runs off with the mytharc or would you prefer him knocked out or tied to chairs.

The kid needs relationships even if they create them out of thin air and I would rather it be Gabriel than have them steal one of Dean's iconic best friends/frenemies like Castiel, Benny, Crowley or Ketch.  Still eyerolling at anyone who believes Sam and Crowley have a relationship.  There are a lot of characters whobdeign to be in the same room with Sam because they want to be near Dean.

They are attemptng to give Sam Dean's former role of human brother with human relationships and caretaker status.  I do not think Jared can act over mediocre writing the way Jensen can and I do not think Jared has Jensen's charisma that creates instant bonding between characters. 

However the character needs this kind of development and it is a clear sign that Dean is knee deep in mytharc.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.themarysue.com/richard-speight-alexander-calvert-supernatural-interview/

I should have gone to see Infinity Wars tonight. 

Mean Dean is mean towards poor Gabriel. 

 

I knew they were going to try and co-opt "profound bond" for Sam and Gabriel.

What relationship? Gabriel always interacted with Dean more.  It was Dean Gabriel responded to in Hammer of the Gods. 

Sam and Dean havent' given Gabriel a single thought since his death but suddenly there is a connection between him and Sam. 

Meh. I love grumpy Dean and this is in line with his hoing off the rails character arc.

I am so over Gabriel myself.  He tortured and killed for millennia.  No sympathy here. And he killed Dean millions of times. )_(.

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

coop! I found the fabled SPN writers' bible (or at least the chapters that apply to this episode).

SPN writers guide

LOL

They need to spend less time on AO3 and more time on Superwiki.

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The thing is though, the show isn't over. 

True, but it feels the writers are trying to force a relationship rather than develop one.  I would have rolled my eyes if Dean told Cas he needed him in s4.  It took 5 seasons to get there.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe Sam is just a bit of a masochist?

This has long been my theory about Sam...for like ever LOL. It makes as much sense as anything!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have to give Sam something to do whilst Dean runs off with the mytharc or would you prefer him knocked out or tied to chairs.

The kid needs relationships even if they create them out of thin air and I would rather it be Gabriel than have them steal one of Dean's iconic best friends/frenemies like Castiel, Benny, Crowley or Ketch.  Still eyerolling at anyone who believes Sam and Crowley have a relationship.  There are a lot of characters whobdeign to be in the same room with Sam because they want to be near Dean.

They are attemptng to give Sam Dean's former role of human brother with human relationships and caretaker status.  I do not think Jared can act over mediocre writing the way Jensen can and I do not think Jared has Jensen's charisma that creates instant bonding between characters. 

However the character needs this kind of development and it is a clear sign that Dean is knee deep in mytharc.

I think there is a pretty wide gap between these two things. By all means, give Sam a relationship - but one that makes sense. Gabriel did precisely one good thing for them, ever. He did multiple bad things to Sam, and just finished screwing them over again. I'd hazard a guess that his 'I need you' raised eyebrows even among the most die-hard of Sam fans (and I am not saying *all* but certainly *some*). I want good, consistent, canon-compliant writing for the show, not just for Dean or Sam. They are not offering it up, IMO, and most certainly not by pushing this mythical bond between Gabriel and Sam.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Scoop! I found the fabled SPN writers' bible (or at least the chapters that apply to this episode).

SPN writers guide

LEGIT GUFFAW AND LOL. That is the best thing I've seen all day. I needed this. OMG, this is so great.

[Castiels Cat]

28 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I gotta say, it's nice to see an actor say their character is more fond of Sam.  It doesn't really happen much in the show.  It's usually Dean who has the better bonds with all the characters... unless the writers plan to kill them off after 2 or 3 episodes like Eilleen or Sarah or Madison.  The writers even make sure to let the audience know that Dean is the favourite like with Castiels more profound bond and Bobby saying Dean is his favourite. 

I know people don't like it here, but I am glad this season is at least giving that to Sam more.  It almost makes up for Sam's less than stellar hunting skills this season.  

I think they are making an effort to develop this side of Sam this,season and it is long overdo in my opinion.   Dean has had the lion's share of personal development.  I agree.  And It has not worked to simply pretend Dean's friends are Sam's friends when the time had not been spent on developing the bonds. 

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

and Sam as the sensitive caretaking sidekick this season. 

I don't really see this in Sam this season. I see a Sam that ostensibly was attempting to be that person as was shown with Jack, until...he wasn't.  And was kind of oblivious to Dean's grief (and yes I know Sam was grieving too. Unfortunately, the show didn't show it. Nor really tell it either. He was compartmentalizing at best IMO at that point. Rather it showed how much Sam was making sure Jack was okay and going to be okay and also, of service, to them with his powers.

Then in AT he gave it a go to make Dean happy by doing what he thought Dean would have wanted.(which kind of was interesting to me that Dean himself didn't seem to be seeking those typical things as his soothing practices i.e. booze, Burgers and babes. He only went when Sam suggested it. Not sure what I make of all that right now TBH). 

Since then I'm seeing Sam's caregiving going to Gabriel. IMO, Sam tries his best but I don't see him as a  natural caregiver type of person. He only seems to do it when he sees himself in someone else. Others can reasonably disagree. I do think he was pretty good with Dean in Regarding Dean but IMO in general, that's not Sam's strong suit. Which is not me saying Sam doesn't care about people. He does. It's just a different kind of thing to be a caregiver. YMMV

Edited April 26, 2018 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

What I didn`t like about Speight`s interview was this liking Dean to Lucifer. I don`t happen to think "Alpha" is an insult. It clearly was supposed to be in this context, seeing it from Gabriel`s whiny "woe is victimized me" perspective that Speight seems to think the character is entitled to and justified for. Give me a break. 

But overall "alpha" is not a bad thing. Being likened to Lucifer is. And Lucifer isn`t an "Alpha" personality. He is the kind of guy who would like to be one, fancies himself being one but he isn`t one. That is his problem. 

If Dean doesn`t kiss Gabriel`s little boo-boos and the poor, victimized archangel whines about it and bonds with Sam, by all means. That doesn`t bug me. 

As long as they keep Dean badass. I hope Glynn doesn`t produce another stinker like the episode with the grief therapy. This was by far the worst one this Season and a big disappointment from her.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I didn`t like about Speight`s interview was this liking Dean to Lucifer. I don`t happen to think "Alpha" is an insult. It clearly was supposed to be in this context, seeing it from Gabriel`s whiny "woe is victimized me" perspective that Speight seems to think the character is entitled to and justified for. Give me a break. 

But overall "alpha" is not a bad thing. Being likened to Lucifer is. And Lucifer isn`t an "Alpha" personality. He is the kind of guy who would like to be one, fancies himself being one but he isn`t one. That is his problem. 

If Dean doesn`t kiss Gabriel`s little boo-boos and the poor, victimized archangel whines about it and bonds with Sam, by all means. That doesn`t bug me. 

As long as they keep Dean badass. I hope Glynn doesn`t produce another stinker like the episode with the grief therapy. This was by far the worst one this Season and a big disappointment from her.

I think she drank the kool-ade. Another one bites the dust. Too bad.

I'm prepared for the worst now.

And if anyone gets schooled on anything in this one, I'm betting that it will be Dean, same as in Just My Imagination. That interview said it all. Again.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/25/2018 at 2:27 PM, catrox14 said:

It's not like Dean hasn't been reckless before. Look at that MoC storyline. Look at him selling his soul for Sam and all that wrought. He was reckless in AT. I think he does all of it with good intentions which doesn't erase it being reckless.

Hmmm.

Sam's tragic flaw... hubric grand gesture triggered by a need to prove himself when he has lost family or failed family 

Dean's tragic flaw... reckless self sacrifice triggered by a need to save family or get a big win when faced by loss of family

So yes... Dean is going to be reckless.  We have seen this again and again and again.... season 2, season 5,  season 6, season 7, season 8, season 9, season 11, season 12, season 13...

In Love Hurts Sam actually puts Dean's compulsive need to sacrifice himself into text.

In Advance Thanatology we see a dry run or dress rehearsal for what will most likely be him saying yes to Dean!Michael.  They have set everything up.

He is desperate.  He has lost mom which is his primary trigger as far as family goes.  The world is going to Help.  God has told him he is responsible for everything.  He sees a solution that involves him making a sacrifice. Of vourse he is going to take it.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Maybe! But wasn't Dean already totally on board with working with Gabriel? That's why he was so upset to find out that Gabriel had bailed on them.

My initial thought, based on the official synopsis of the episode, was that the quote is related to Gabriel's desire for revenge on the gods who sold him to Asmodeus. The synopsis says that Gabriel drags Dean and Sam into his plot for revenge.

I could be wrong, but I had the feeling that everyone was supposed to be totally over any anger at Gabriel for his past acts, because he is such a cute, charming, and entertaining fellow. Personally, I may dislike him, but I got the impression that the writers were assuming that everyone in the audience loves him. (On this show you can almost always tell which characters the writers feel that way about.)

I do not love him.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Reganne said:

There wasn't really bonding between them in season 5 anyway.  More Dean telling Gabriel what he thought.

What I can't with is the idea that Gabriel and Sam actually have anything in common. They don't even have family birth order in common. Sam wasn't the middle child. He's the youngest.

Dean was stuck between John and Sam so that doesn't really qualify as "middle child" either. Sam has more in common with Lucifer than any other angel. Why they are working so hard to make Gabriel more important than he ever was... makes me laugh. 

Dean and The Trickster/Gabriel had porn and strippers in common.  Isn't that why Gabriel left them a message in a Casa Erotica video that was going to get Dean's attention? And yes, Dean told Gabriel what he thought and it seems that opinion got through to Gabriel in some way in s5. My memory might be failing me, I can't recollect Sam relating to Gabriel at all in s5. 

I can see a case for their messed up history in Mystery Spot. Like maybe Gabriel took pity on Sam after begging him to bring Dean back. IMO, if anything, Gabriel has a lot of  power over Sam given that entire thing. 
 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Scoop! I found the fabled SPN writers' bible (or at least the chapters that apply to this episode).

SPN writers guide

I like Rich as a con host, but his thoughts about the show? Just... no.

Maybe Sam is just a bit of a masochist? To have such empathy for someone who abused him to the point of a near-mental breakdown? Who, as it turns out, ran away from the fight and hid out like a selfish coward? And then when he helps him to recover his grace after years of torture, once again fucks off to leave them on their own? Yeah, I'd say there are some issues there.

ROTFLMAO! Eureka!! :-D

[Castiels Cat]

43 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I didn`t like about Speight`s interview was this liking Dean to Lucifer. I don`t happen to think "Alpha" is an insult. It clearly was supposed to be in this context, seeing it from Gabriel`s whiny "woe is victimized me" perspective that Speight seems to think the character is entitled to and justified for. Give me a break. 

But overall "alpha" is not a bad thing. Being likened to Lucifer is. And Lucifer isn`t an "Alpha" personality. He is the kind of guy who would like to be one, fancies himself being one but he isn`t one. That is his problem. 

If Dean doesn`t kiss Gabriel`s little boo-boos and the poor, victimized archangel whines about it and bonds with Sam, by all means. That doesn`t bug me. 

As long as they keep Dean badass. I hope Glynn doesn`t produce another stinker like the episode with the grief therapy. This was by far the worst one this Season and a big disappointment from her.

Especially weird since Sam and Lucifer are mirrors and Dean and Lucifer are not.  Dean is nothing like Lucifer. Dean has always owned his mistakes and make I responsibility for his actions.

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't really see this in Sam this season. I see a Sam that ostensibly was attempting to be that person as was shown with Jack, until...he wasn't.  And was kind of oblivious to Dean's grief (and yes I know Sam was grieving too. Unfortunately, the show didn't show it. Nor really tell it either. He was compartmentalizing at best IMO at that point. Rather it showed how much Sam was making sure Jack was okay and going to be okay and also, of service, to them with his powers.

Then in AT he gave it a go to make Dean happy by doing what he thought Dean would have wanted.(which kind of was interesting to me that Dean himself didn't seem to be seeking those typical things as his soothing practices i.e. booze, Burgers and babes. He only went when Sam suggested it. Not sure what I make of all that right now TBH). 

Since then I'm seeing Sam's caregiving going to Gabriel. IMO, Sam tries his best but I don't see him as a  natural caregiver type of person. He only seems to do it when he sees himself in someone else. Others can reasonably disagree. I do think he was pretty good with Dean in Regarding Dean but IMO in general, that's not Sam's strong suit. Which is not me saying Sam doesn't care about people. He does. It's just a different kind of thing to be a caregiver. YMMV

This is what they are going for in the writing.  Does Jared sell it as well as Jensen...no.

Does Sam always seem to want something in return... maybe...

But this season stars,Sam as stay at home Sam whilst Dean is off doing stuff.  We have seen it over and over and over.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Its not that characters prefer Sam, its when the reasoning doesn't fit that I side eye.  An interview with Shoshanna, or Mark P or Gen P, or Ruth  and I would expect them to talk more about their characters relationship with Sam.

But Richard is erasing a lot of history to force a non existent relationship with Sam.  Sam's 'I need you' was seriously a big WTF moment because why?  That come out of nowhere based on character interactions.  Gabriel killed Dean over and over and put Sam through the ringer to make him learn a lesson.  He was always the antagonist and neither Dean nor Sam seemed all that broken up about his death or gave him a second thought. 

It was Dean's that Gabe responded to, so saying that Gabriel doesn't respond to Dean's abrasiveness isn't true.  Because it was Dean that helped convince Gabe to fight. 

I agree.  

I also think tbis is all Sam has going on this season and it is all Richard has to yammer about.

Dean has the big story. Dean has the big mytharc for a change.  

I wonder if someone slipped Singer a mickie.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IA.

I've not been expecting anything that will even have the possibility of thrilling me until 22/23.

IDK.  Dean and Ketch thrilled me beyond belief.

And I love Roweeena.   I miss Crowley too.  I hope he really did not commit suicide..