These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[trxr4kids]

OMG Sam, STFU! I don't even feel bad for Gabriel being tortured but gezus, that wasn't the least bit empathetic IMO. Also I'm super excited to see Dean taken down immediately upon entering AW <massive eye roll>

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, why the fuck is someone just randomly shooting another person? Do they think he's some kind of angel? WTF? This is kind of stupid at first blush.

Unless Dean looks like someone evil in AW.

Fat chance of Dean being allowed to save himself.  We see Ketch take down the threat.  I think the bullet grazed Dean's arm. 

My biggest worry about this ep was that it was going to turn into another very special lesson for Dean.  I wouldn't be surprised if he returns to Cas lecturing him about needing Sam.

Edited April 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Talk about some Sabriel ship baiting LOL.

I had the same thought, lol. I need to buy or make Singer, Dabb and Buck/Lemming voodoo dolls before I watch this episode.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

OMG Sam, STFU! I don't even feel bad for Gabriel being tortured but gezus, that wasn't the least bit empathetic IMO. Also I'm super excited to see Dean taken down immediately upon entering AW <massive eye roll>

Did Gabriel consent to giving them his grace? Or was it grace that Ketch took? I got a little confused on that point.

Sam, do you remember when Gabriel murdered your brother hundreds of times just to torment you because he found it fun?

I hope this is really just Sam doing what he did with Jack. Be nice. Be kind. Make his ask. I'll kind of be pissed if it's not TBH. I don't care if Sam uses Gabriel TBH.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Fat chance of Dean being allowed to save himself.  We see Ketch take down the threat.  I think the bullet grazed Dean's arm. 

Wait, I thought that was Dean that tackled him. Didn't Ketch disappear? I have to watch it again.

[gonzosgirrl]

Andrew Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean Winchester. I wonder if his middle name is Alistair?

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, I thought that was Dean that tackled him. Didn't Ketch disappear? I have to watch it again.

Going through it frame by frame, its definitely Ketch.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam, do you remember when Gabriel murdered your brother hundreds of times just to torment you because he found it fun?

Sam is really making my case that he shows compassion towards every one but his own brother.

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Did Gabriel consent to giving them his grace? Or was it grace that Ketch took? I got a little confused on that point.

I'm not sure either.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Andrew Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean Winchester. I wonder if his middle name is Alistair?

I hate to say it, I think Alistair had more respect for Dean than Dabb. At least he viewed him as his best pupil in waiting. Schooled by the master torturer himself.

I'm fully certain Dean will have to learn a lesson once more about going it alone. Sigh.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did Gabriel consent to giving them his grace? Or was it grace that Ketch took? I got a little confused on that point.

I thought Ketch took the left over grace that Colonel Sanders didn't use to season his chicken.

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Going through it frame by frame, its definitely Ketch.

Thanks. Crap.

[Wayward Son]

((Sorry meant to post this in the regular spoilers thread))

Edited April 12, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I rolled my eyes so hard at the clip. Seriously? Right away. And what is Itchy McTrigger finger`s problem anyway? Dean is hardly dressed like the angels we`ve seen in AU world. If anyone, Ketch is. So we get Ketch to the rescue? 

I was so hoping for some badass scene there but not looking good right now. 

The part with Gabriel just annoys me. Sorry, get over it, dude. Though I just have to shake my head at "your nephew Jack". Why would Gabriel give a flying fuck about Lucifer`s nephilim? Yes, angels refer to themselves as brothers and the archangels and God did play the little family dynamic more than most but that still doesn`t mean you can transfer earthly concepts like in-laws, nieces and nephews and stuff like that on them. 

Typical BuckLemming.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Typical BuckLemming.

Yeah, this is what I'm afraid of...

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Though I just have to shake my head at "your nephew Jack". Why would Gabriel give a flying fuck about Lucifer`s nephilim?

It's RIDICULOUS.

It's this whole thing of poor wooby innocent Son of Satan deserves to be loved by everyone. And if you don't, then you are the bad person, the bad angel, the close minded jerk off.

Honestly, at this point I really hope Jack goes dark side. I really really do.

[ILoveReading]

What bothers me most about the "we need you, I need you" is that its literally the exact same lines Dean spoke to Cas in goodbye stranger.

Dean and Cas's relationship is complicated and had years of highs and lows.  So it feels natural.

What little interaction Gabriel had with Sam was purely antagonistic.   It feels exactly like what it is.  Forced and pure fan service. 

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

What bothers me most about the "we need you, I need you" is that its literally the exact same lines Dean spoke to Cas in goodbye stranger.

Dean and Cas's relationship is complicated and had years of highs and lows.  So it feels natural.

OH MY GODS. I didn't even make that connection.

UGH. This really annoys me even more now!

Dammit, Dabb/Singer.

 

I am so cynical now that I think he might actually be Michael. The broken up in the corner Michael. It makes a lot more sense to me that Asmodeus got Michael out of the Cage and kept him as  his pet and maybe even used some kind of trickery to make him look like Gabriel.

[gonzosgirrl]

I was waiting for Sam to drop to his knees, to be honest. That's about the most ridiculous piece of fanfic speechifying I've seen in ever. It has NO bearing in canon whatsoever.

And beyond the pandering fanficciness of it all, are they going to explain why they need him? They already have the grace. Are they going to try and sell him as some great warrior now (after Sam's impassioned pleas break him out of his catatonia, of course), needed to battle AU!Michael. OMFG, the stupid, it burns!

ETA: I've got one foot in the it's-really-Michael car myself now. It wouldn't surprise me that the only way Dabb would finally give Jensen the character is as a cowering, psychologically ruined mess.

Have I mentioned I loathe him?

Edited April 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I was waiting for Sam to drop to his knees, to be honest. That's about the most ridiculous piece of fanfic speechifying I've seen in ever. It has NO bearing in canon whatsoever.

 

 

It's truly mystifying. 

I fully understand that not everyone gets Destiel, but even the hardcore Destiel haters have to acknowledge that by the time Dean said those words (h/t @ILoveReading for noticing that) it was like 5 or 6 seasons of build up of close relationship, brothers in arms, Castiel WAS FAMILY.

Holy moly, I'm actually kind of angry now.

[companionenvy]

Yeah. I'm not joining in the Sam-bashing -- I do find it kind of funny that in the past page, Sam's been criticized for not actually being compassionate to Gabriel and for showing compassion to everyone except for Dean -- but I do think the "I need you" is over the top ridiculous.

I've never been a Sabriel fan, because unlike Destiel, I just see no basis for it in canon. It has always felt to me more like "well, if Dean gets his special angel boyfriend, so should Sam." Like, Gabriel is marginally more connected to Sam, in that Sam's the one he tries to teach a very special lesson to, but that's hardly a positive thing. So, Sam saying "I need you" to Gabriel as if that's going to make a damn bit of difference is ridiculous. Like, if he isn't going to do it for his brothers, why would he do it for you? When Dean said it to Cas, it made sense, because not only was their relationship much, much closer than Sam and Gabriel's, Cas actually does care more about Dean than he does about any other being, including his own family.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

ETA: I've got one foot in the it's-really-Michael car myself now. It wouldn't surprise me that the only way Dabb would finally give Jensen the character is as a cowering, psychologically ruined mess.

Have I mentioned I loathe him?

 

I would certainly be a despiccable turn of events. My hope (haha, I know, I`m such a fool) right now is that since an upcoming ep summary mentions the demi-gods and those have been tied to Gabriel previously, it will really be him.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

Rewatching the promo, there is a scene where Ketch says they're almost out of time and Dean is covered in snow.  I'm guessing he spends quite a bit of time rolling around in the snow.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Rewatching the promo, there is a scene where Ketch says they're almost out of time and Dean is covered in snow.  I'm guessing he spends quite a bit of time rolling around in the snow.

Well, at least he did get his licks in on someone.

I hate this. I hate how I think this is going to be Ketch redemption.

I fully expect it will come down to Ketch and Mary sitting in a tree, KISSING...ugh. Maybe she'll have the baby that saves that universe. YOu know since the other Mary didn't. I'm telling you I would not put it past these numbnuts to do that. I really wouldn't.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Did Gabriel consent to giving them his grace? Or was it grace that Ketch took? I got a little confused on that point.

Sam, do you remember when Gabriel murdered your brother hundreds of times just to torment you because he found it fun?

I hope this is really just Sam doing what he did with Jack. Be nice. Be kind. Make his ask. I'll kind of be pissed if it's not TBH. I don't care if Sam uses Gabriel TBH.

Wait, I thought that was Dean that tackled him. Didn't Ketch disappear? I have to watch it again.

There were (I thought) two vials of grace and the needle in a case when Asmodeus was shooting up.  Ketch definitely grabbed the grace and the Archangel blade when escaping.  I DON'T know if there was one or two vials when he grabbed it.  That's the confusing point for me.  In any case, Ketch gave Sam and Dean one of the extracted vials.  And no, nobody asked Gabriel if they could go ahead and use it, since it was already outside his body.  Gabriel was not actually communicating well.  I suspect if he complains (eventually) Dean will tell Gabriel he owed them for ditching on the Apocalypse.  In any case, I had no problem with them using the previously-extracted grace but I admit it's a little on the grey side.  Like Batman would do it, Superman would likely ask permission.  These guys are more Batman than Superman.  

Edited April 12, 2018 by SueB

[Myrelle]

I'm sadly beginning to get the feeling that tonight's episode is just going to be yet another big "lesson for/schooling Dean"-type of episode and little more than that-which will be such a waste, but far from unexpected considering whose spouse is writing it.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Myrelle said:

I'm sadly beginning to ge the feeling that tonight's episode is just going to be yet another big "lesson for/schooling Dean"-type of episode and little more than that-which will be such a waste, but far from unexpected considering whose spouse is writing it.

I'd put money on it.

I'd also bet Dean won't be liberating a prison camp with a bullet wound in his stomach.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

There were (I thought) two vials of grace and the needle in a case when Asmodeus was shooting up.  Ketch definitely grabbed the grace and the Archangel blade when escaping.  I DON'T know if there was one or two vials when he grabbed it.  That's the confusing point for me.  In any case, Ketch gave Sam and Dean one of the extracted vials.  And no, nobody asked Gabriel if they could go ahead and use it, since it was already outside his body.  Gabriel was not actually communicating well.  I suspect if he complains (eventually) Dean will tell Gabriel he owed them for ditching on the Apocalypse.  In any case, I had no problem with them using the previously-extracted grace but I admit it's a little on the grey side.  Like Batman would do it, Superman would likely ask permission.  These guys are more Batman than Superman.  

Well I wasn't actually suggesting that it was a problem if they did. Didn't really cross my mind as being a problem.

But now that you bring it up, yeah it would be kind of hypocritical for them to take it without his consent. Surely he can write down the words, Yes, if he agreed to it. I don't think he's lost the ability to understand questions at this point.

[BoxManLocke]

What did you guys expect ? It's BuckLeming we're talking about. They will butcher anything potentially decent and add their own crap on top of it (don't forget these sweet, sweet Lucifer scenes they aren't promoting !).

 

I have to admit the "You're family" thing made me literally gasp. Like, what the hell ? In what world does that make sense for Sam to say that ?

 

Oh right, in the world of SPN right now where the writers clumsily try to introduce tense/emotional moments without ever having worked to them. Nothing is earned anymore so of course everything falls flat on its face.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, BoxManLocke said:

I have to admit the "You're family" thing made me literally gasp. Like, what the hell ? In what world does that make sense for Sam to say that ?

Do you guys think that is what Jensen suggested we wouldn't like very much? Or would they?

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do you guys think that is what Jensen suggested we wouldn't like very much? Or would they?

I got the feeling they were talking about something that happens in the finale.

[catrox14]

And another thing.

They are giving Cas' relationship to Gabriel to Sam. That's way worse than any undermining of Destiel which good try FuckLemming but you can't kill Destiel this way. 

Cas should be telling Gabriel they are family. It's bullshit on EVERY front.

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

What did you guys expect ? It's BuckLeming we're talking about.

The definition of insanity....

Totally agree with your whole post. And gasping about the Sam/Gabriel thing isn't bashing the character at all. It's ALL about the terrible writing and characterization in this instance. I don't know how any of them kept a straight face, tbh.

[BoxManLocke]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The definition of insanity....

Totally agree with your whole post. And gasping about the Sam/Gabriel thing isn't bashing the character at all. It's ALL about the terrible writing and characterization in this instance. I don't know how any of them kept a straight face, tbh.

 

I'm sure it was an easy scene to shoot if they were playing it as Jared/Richard instead of Sam/Gabriel. They do like each other after all, and since nowadays SPN is all about the cast/crew bringing back all friends of theirs at all costs, common sense and story credibility be damned...

 

I'm fully expecting Rowena or Ketch to get the Family treatment from Sam and Dean next. Winchester family cards are being handed around like free lemonade nowadays.

 

Can't believe at the beginning of the season I thought it was a bit too early for Dean to say that to Jack. At least they had put some work before that. It's just getting worse and worse now.

Edited April 12, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[SueB]

I thought Sam was talking about his Angelic family (like new nephew Jack) -- not Team Free Will. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

I thought Sam was talking about his Angelic family (like new nephew Jack) -- not Team Free Will. 

 

I think he probably was, but the follow up with 'we' need you and the broken-voiced, "I need you" kind of blurs all the lines. It's just a weird, OTT and OOC scene no matter how I try to interpret it.

Edited April 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

I bet that when Sam and Dean catch up with Gabriel in episode 20, Dean will try to talk to him and Gabriel will tell him that he and Sam share a more profound bond.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I bet that when Sam and Dean catch up with Gabriel in episode 20, Dean will try to talk to him and Gabriel will tell him that he and Sam share a more profound bond.

 believe it. Ugh They would totally do that and if they do, they that is just a big fuck you to Cas and Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I bet that when Sam and Dean catch up with Gabriel in episode 20, Dean will try to talk to him and Gabriel will tell him that he and Sam share a more profound bond.

Why? Why would you put that out there in the universe? Whyyyyyyy?

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why? Why would you put that out there in the universe? Whyyyyyyy?

Self protection from the blind side that we got in the last episode with the weirdly 'passionate' "I need you" from Sam to Gabriel?

 Honest to gods, I want someone to ask Buck Lemming WTF that was about.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the spoiler thread, just to be safe:

4 hours ago, SueB said:

For the TL;DR: I see the setup for the finale (plot, character, canon) as clear as day.  If there's a problem with the way Dabb helms the ship, it's that he plays the long game and individual episodes have more set-up than resolution. 

 

I agree... with the added nitpick / complaint that I think he / the writers play a bit fast and loose with some of the character beats for plot purposes. This is especially glaring for me with Sam. Last season it was Sam doing a 180 in one episode and joining the BMoL. This season it was Sam doing a 180 into depression and being completely lacking in hope - which is very unSamlike, in my opinion... with the exception of Sam in the season 8 finale which was also, in my opinion, fairly unSamlike, but that I handwaved as Sam being affected by his crappy health. There isn't the same excuse here, and I think it's just going to be a plot device to help push Dean into whatever desperate decision he's maybe going to make rather than something that is usually organic to Sam's character.

Can I also mention that I am annoyed at the - if it does happen - very obvious Rowena goes bad due to Sam giving her the page? I'm tired of Sam being set up as always being the dumbass / goat as of late, and if there is a Dean death here via Rowena with huge awful repercussions for Dean, I'm going to be pissed off, because I'm pretty sure I called something like that a while ago concerning Sam giving Rowena the page. For me, it's getting a bit ridiculous with the plot / arc relevant "Sam is wrong" stuff. Sure he was right about Jack - so far: I still maintain that there's time for that to backfire too - but so far Jack has been somewhat more plot-adjacent and/or a plot deice than the actual plot and I have a bad feeling that the writers are just going to find another way to have Sam screw everything up and/or be wrong. I hope I'm wrong about that. Man, I miss Gamble so much these days.

[SueB]

Jack has a bad turn in the next AU ep.  

[SueB]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Can I also mention that I am annoyed at the - if it does happen - very obvious Rowena goes bad due to Sam giving her the page? I'm tired of Sam being set up as always being the dumbass / goat as of late, and if there is a Dean death here via Rowena with huge awful repercussions for Dean, I'm going to be pissed off, because I'm pretty sure I called something like that a while ago concerning Sam giving Rowena the page. For me, it's getting a bit ridiculous with the plot / arc relevant "Sam is wrong" stuff. Sure he was right about Jack - so far: I still maintain that there's time for that to backfire too - but so far Jack has been somewhat more plot-adjacent and/or a plot deice than the actual plot and I have a bad feeling that the writers are just going to find another way to have Sam screw everything up and/or be wrong. I hope I'm wrong about that. Man, I miss Gamble so much these days.

Rowena turning bad is not Sam’s fault IMO. She was always a villainness.  She’s just had a slight dalliance with redemption from time to time.  I see as Sam’s relationship with Rowena as a parallel to Dean’s relationship with Crowley.  Both were unambiguous baddies who are coming around slowly due to the influence of a Winchester.  We know they all survive for a while - and her magic will be key to the season resolution.  

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Rowena turning bad is not Sam’s fault IMO. She was always a villainness.

Oh, I agree. I worded that badly. What I was meaning to say was when Rowena does bad (which I had originally written and then changed it for some reason) due to her getting hold of the page. It's not Sam's fault that Rowena is bad, but it is his fault for falling for her sob story and giving her the page to that book. If she does awful because of that - and she's only more powerful now because of that page in the book - then that will be on Sam. Even if Rowena does end up helping them, whatever bad Rowena does before that will still be on Sam as collateral damage, and in my opinion, the writers seem to like putting collateral damage on Sam even if it has little to no bearing on the plot as a whole (example: the town that was destroyed by Amara that we just heard about, and it was mentioned that about 2000+ people died, I guess just because.)

It will be even worse if this collateral damage impacts Dean directly, because then the writers will be fueling - in my opinion - discontent. So I hope they don't go there, but I'm also bracing myself for that to happen.

[ILoveReading]

I can't figure out the reason for the "Im surprised you didn't tell Sam about me."   He told Sam all the relevant information.  Its not like the meeting with Stunt Reaper #3 was all that significant.

So why is the narrative trying to make it sound like Dean's hiding stuff from Sam?

[Bobcatkitten]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can't figure out the reason for the "Im surprised you didn't tell Sam about me."   He told Sam all the relevant information.  Its not like the meeting with Stunt Reaper #3 was all that significant.

So why is the narrative trying to make it sound like Dean's hiding stuff from Sam?

Yeah that was odd. I mean he told Sam all about his conversation with Death/Billie - which was the highlight of that time. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I can't figure out the reason for the "Im surprised you didn't tell Sam about me."   He told Sam all the relevant information.  Its not like the meeting with Stunt Reaper #3 was all that significant.

So why is the narrative trying to make it sound like Dean's hiding stuff from Sam?

Seriously. This doesn't make sense. Billie is the one that controlled Deans fate. Jessica was a minor player who reported on Dean.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously. This doesn't make sense. Billie is the one that controlled Deans fate. Jessica was a minor player who reported on Dean.

Her entire interaction was to have a panic attack and yell "Dean Winchester's in the veil."

Not sure why she's want Sam to know that or why it was important.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Her entire interaction was to have a panic attack and yell "Dean Winchester's in the veil."

Not sure why she's want Sam to know that or why it was important.

I took it as a more personal issue for the Reaper.  Like ‘You went on and on about Tessa and not me...’.  

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

I took it as a more personal issue for the Reaper.  Like ‘You went on and on about Tessa and not me...’.  

It didn't come across that way to me, but more like, "why are you keeping secrets," because otherwise why make it a big deal to Sam

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I took it as a more personal issue for the Reaper.  Like ‘You went on and on about Tessa and not me...’.  

I don't recall Dean ever talking to Sam (or anyone) about Tessa? He didn't remember her at all after IMTOD and in Death Takes A Holiday she had to make him remember her. I don't remember him telling anyone about Appointment in Samarrra. I can't remember what went down before she killed herself on his blade in S9, but I don't have a sense of him talking about her.

I agree with the others - her attitude in this episode was nothing like the character we met briefly in Adv. Than. It's like she was trying to be Billie-lite, and it was weird.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall Dean ever talking to Sam (or anyone) about Tessa?

I don't think Dean ever told Sam about Tessa. And he didn't have to. She was his reaper.