A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[TheGreenKnight]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order:

• When Mary Margaret is crying not knowing what she did, that she’s innocent and Regina reaches out and holds her face in “Stable Boy.” Also the very ending in the flashback when Regina realizes Snow told Cora, and she turns away—just her face really showed the mental breakdown. Then cut to her in the present looking batshit holding Daniel’s ring repeating, “We got her…!”
• Rumpel’s “Everything has a price, including…wasting my time” to Snow White when she was tricked into thinking she had Excalibur.
• Emma’s “I’m not nothing, I’ve never been nothing” in Nimue.
• Cora’s “This would have been enough” and then Regina lashing out at Rumpel afterwards in “Miller’s Daughter.”
• The cliffhanger to “Going Home”
• Dark Swan scaring Regina out of her house, telling her to try being the Savior.
• Hades and Zelena’s present day scene at the end of “Our Decay”
• Emma not letting Hook die at the end of the Camelot flashbacks.
• Almost any Cruella moment. She is the only thing worth watching 4B for.
• Ingrid at the end of “Shattered Sight” when Anna brought the letter.
• Ariel stabbing Regina in the neck with a fork.
• Rumpel saying “Please” to Regina in one of the first episodes of S1.
• Emma cutting down Regina’s apple tree.
• Emma punching Regina in “The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter.”
• Belle forcing Rumpel to leave town at the end of 4A. I just thought it was done well, with Rumpel MUAHAHAing, then cut to Belle standing there with the dagger, and then it was completely silent.
• When Zelena reveals herself to Rumpel in “Heart of Gold.”
• Hook asking for a kiss from Emma in 3A; I can’t quite remember the episode.
• After David asks Mary Margaret if she killed Kathryn, she tells him to get away from her. I hated David so much in S1 (and I'm still not very fond of him outside of his interactions with Hook and how attractive the actor is) which mad it a fantastic moment.
• Hercules and Young Snow kissing.
• Baelfire and Hook’s flashback scenes in the S2 finale.
• Ariel slaps Hook in “The Jolly Roger.” Her brief cameo in “Poor Unfortunate Souls” is great, too.
• Rumpel choosing to let Emma and Hook go in the S3 finale. (I find that finale boring outside the Rumpel scenes, actually.)
• Ingrid entering the World Without Magic.
• Ingrid threatening Rumpel at the end of one of the later 4A episodes.
• Anna outsmarting Rumpel at the end of “The Apprentice.”
• Snow’s “I…was…TEEEENNN!!!” in “Shattered Sight.”
• The conversation between Regina and Rumpel in the car in “Heroes and Villains.”

EDIT: I forgot when Emma essentially said in 3A that she wish Neal had stayed dead. Neal hater here, loved that moment.

Edited December 14, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more on the bleakness/darkness of season one ... I do think it was pretty bleak, considering that all the major characters were miserable in the present day. Emma was in a place she didn't want to be, dealing with stuff she never asked for. Henry was stuck with people who refused to believe him. David and Mary Margaret were either miserable being apart or guilty being together. Even Regina was unhappy because she was losing control, and she's never really happy because she's always dissatisfied. Most of the sense of hope was borrowed hope -- we knew the good guys were going to prevail and the bad guys be defeated, not because of anything actually in the show itself, but because we'd read fairy tales and seen Disney movies. I also find that season hard to rewatch in retrospect because it gets a bit bleaker when you realize that nothing really changes, that the defeat of the villain that got me through in the first place isn't really going to happen, that Regina will be living in the same mansion, still being the mayor, and all the people she's oppressing in season one will be kissing her ass later, and as we're seeing in the Evil Queen's attitude in season 6 -- which is split off from Regina herself in late season 5, her attitude toward these people hasn't changed at all. The only real change from season one to season six is that everyone has their memories and knows who they are.

However, one thing that was different from 6A was that the little victories mattered. There was a sense of momentum, as every small victory along the way was a chip at Regina's control of the town, a wearing away of the curse. So Emma didn't just save Hansel and Gretel by reuniting them with their father, but she also foiled Regina's scheme to discredit her in Henry's eyes, so Henry had more hope and believed even more in Emma. Archie found his backbone, which ended Regina's gaslighting scheme. And all these little victories forced Regina to escalate until she did things so big that Emma had to notice. There's no similar sense in season 6. The little victories are random and don't build toward anything. Saving Cinderella and her stepsister from the Evil Queen's assistance to the stepmother doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things. It doesn't diminish the Evil Queen's power. It doesn't force her to escalate, doesn't make her panic. She just has an appletini. When her attempt to drive Henry and Hook apart backfires, it doesn't weaken her. It just gives her the chance to get the shears. When Regina and Emma escape the mirror realm, it doesn't really change anything. The fact that the small victories aren't building toward anything keeps there from being any sense of hope.

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

You'd have to cut Marian from the whole thing for that to work, and I would personally prefer it if the time portal opened without Zelena being killed by Gold (if the series was to end here, then leaving her in jail with a potential chance to reform would be a better note to end her on), but otherwise I agree that there was definite series finale potential in the S3 finale

You don't have to cut Marian at all. You simply make her not Marian and reunite her with her random peasant family at Granny's. They could even make her Jefferson's wife or Hansel & Gretel's mom or something if they wanted less randomness. Cut the urn falling through the portal. Happy endings for all.

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Going Home embodies everything good about the show - character moments, family, adventure, magic shenanigans, drama, and hope. Not all of it is that great, though.

The episode embodies all of the problems with Once as well. You have all the characters running around chasing after a new magical prop, the flashbacks were full of continuity errors (particularly the Hook/Tink one), the recently revealed evil parent screwing over their child and pacing issues that result in a rushed goodbye scene and completely ignores some characters.  Going Home is a good episode, but only because of the last 5-10 minutes, the rest of it is pretty forgettable.

Edited December 14, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

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You don't have to cut Marian at all. You simply make her not Marian and reunite her with her random peasant family at Granny's. They could even make her Jefferson's wife or Hansel & Gretel's mom or something if they wanted less randomness. Cut the urn falling through the portal. Happy endings for all.

Or just leave Marian as Marian and make Regina's life perpetually screwed for generations to see. That would be a happy ending for me. ;)

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

 Going Home is a good episode, but only because of the last 5-10 minutes, the rest of it is pretty forgettable.

I disagree, I remember all of it: Pan killing Felix, Hook's moment in the church, Tink vs. the Shadow and her earning her wings, Snow and Emma's talk near the unicorn ornaments, the Rumple-Pan confrontation in the pawn shop, Rumple's sacrificial death, the big goodbye, and the 1 year timeskip with Hook showing up at Emma's apartment.  By contrast, I'm still having trouble remembering all of what happened in 5x11 beyond Hook's death.

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However, one thing that was different from 6A was that the little victories mattered. There was a sense of momentum, as every small victory along the way was a chip at Regina's control of the town, a wearing away of the curse. So Emma didn't just save Hansel and Gretel by reuniting them with their father, but she also foiled Regina's scheme to discredit her in Henry's eyes, so Henry had more hope and believed even more in Emma. Archie found his backbone, which ended Regina's gaslighting scheme. And all these little victories forced Regina to escalate until she did things so big that Emma had to notice. There's no similar sense in season 6. The little victories are random and don't build toward anything. Saving Cinderella and her stepsister from the Evil Queen's assistance to the stepmother doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things. It doesn't diminish the Evil Queen's power. It doesn't force her to escalate, doesn't make her panic. She just has an appletini. When her attempt to drive Henry and Hook apart backfires, it doesn't weaken her. It just gives her the chance to get the shears. When Regina and Emma escape the mirror realm, it doesn't really change anything. The fact that the small victories aren't building toward anything keeps there from being any sense of hope.

This is why I can't consider S1 "bleak".  Even if Regina didn't get the desired comeuppance afterward, the fact of the matter is that S1 ended with her defeated, all of her schemes having failed and her grip on everything slipping away.  The curse was broken, Snow and Charming were reunited, Henry was revived, everything was good except for the ominous magic cloud at the end.  If watched on its own, S1 isn't a bleak story.  Now, when viewed through what the show became afterward, it is a little hard to enjoy, I agree.  The emotional payoff of 1x22 isn't followed on, and even regresses. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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I disagree, I remember all of it: Pan killing Felix, Hook's moment in the church, Tink vs. the Shadow and her earning her wings, Snow and Emma's talk near the unicorn ornaments, the Rumple-Pan confrontation in the pawn shop, Rumple's sacrificial death, the big goodbye, and the 1 year timeskip with Hook showing up at Emma's apartment.  By contrast, I'm still having trouble remembering all of what happened in 5x11 beyond Hook's death.

Yeah. Rumple's sacrifice was the last time I ever found him "human" or redeemable. It was a fantastic sendoff for his character. I don't know if I would be happy with that being his end or not. I would have liked to see him come back in flashbacks or other cameos. (Like Clippy!Rumple or the Underworld or whatever.) That would have sufficed for me. Just leave Belle with the memory that Rumple did become the hero she wanted him to be in the end. Maybe have her shocked in the Underworld when she sees him and Pan working together and running the place.

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This is why I can't consider S1 "bleak".  Even if Regina didn't get the desired comeuppance afterward, the fact of the matter is that S1 ended with her defeated, all of her schemes having failed and her grip on everything slipping away.  The curse was broken, Snow and Charming were reunited, Henry was revived, everything was good except for the ominous magic cloud at the end.  If watched on its own, S1 isn't a bleak story.  Now, when viewed through what the show became afterward, it is a little hard to enjoy, I agree.  The emotional payoff of 1x22 isn't followed on, and even regresses. 

I think S1 seems "bleak" because it's more upfront with adult situations (rape, custody battle) and has a slower pace. It takes more time for the heroes to finally win their big victory, so the villain is in a position of power for extended amount of time. There are mini-wins along the way, but oftentimes they can't be celebrated because the heroes don't even know what they're really doing. I'm not saying that it is bleak, just that it may appear that way against the Saturday morning cartoons we're used to in later seasons.

Edited December 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

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Yeah. Rumple's sacrifice was the last time I ever found him "human" or redeemable. It was a fantastic sendoff for his character. I don't know if I would be happy with that being his end or not.

The Writers missed multiple chances to explore new territory with Rumple, if they insisted on keeping him alive.

I think he was still redeemable in 3B, until he killed Zelena behind Belle's back.  Even so, they could have delved into his PTSD being held hostage by Zelena and his attempt to be a better person after his actual-death experience.  Instead, we got "When the stars and moon aligns" with the Hat Box.

Then they actually had him kicked out into the World Without Magic after 4A, which could have changed him, but it didn't, and he came back to Storybrooke one episode later.

Then they actually removed his Dark One-ness in 5A, yet they couldn't help themselves making him The Dark One AGAIN by the end of the arc.

Which leaves us in 6A, with a character which is now irritatingly overpowered, and completely cartoonish and unrelentingly evil despite A&E insisting that he was being genuine with Belle when he cornered her in the elevator blah blah blah.  At this point, I'd like to see Rumple die every single episode until the finale... that's how much I sympathesize with him.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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I think he was still redeemable in 3B, until he killed Zelena behind Belle's back. 

The dealbreaker for me was the fake dagger. At least killing Zelena was still in the name of Bae, even if it meant he broke a promise to Belle. That was bad of course, but I don't think it made him irredeemable. I think it's dumb that it happened at all since: A) Zelena didn't actually die, and B) Rumple never got caught. 

If the writers really wanted us to pull for Outlaw Queen in 4A, they should have made us aware that Marian was actually Zelena. That way, you could draw a closer parallel with MM and David in S1. They should have made Marian act weird to the point that Robin didn't see her as the same woman any more. But, since Robin couldn't tell the difference, it just makes him look like an idiot. He didn't have a reason to ditch his wife other than Regina's "bold and audacious"-ness.

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Which leaves us in 6A, with a character which is now irritatingly overpowered, and completely cartoonish and unrelentingly evil despite A&E insisting that he was being genuine with Belle when he cornered her in the elevator blah blah blah.  At this point, I'd like to see Rumple die every single episode until the finale... that's how much I sympathesize with him.

I don't mind Rumple being a straightforward antagonist, but that's not what he's supposed to be. We saw in 6x09 that the writers were trying to get us to sympathize with him for not "crossing the line". He's supposed to have a chance with Belle because of hope or whatever. Making him overpowered just takes away his need to be crafty. He should be looking for power, not actually obtaining all of it to the point he's godlike. I think it should be ambiguous whether or not Emma could defeat him. (Maybe in unison with Regina at least.) But, as we learned in 5x11, that's not possible. There should be weaknesses beyond Belle. 

I don't understand why the characters never see him as the real threat to the town. They'll go up against an immortal Greek god, but Rumple is just too much for them?

Edited December 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The dealbreaker for me was the fake dagger.

Agreed.

[Rumsy4]

56 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But, since Robin couldn't tell the difference, it just makes him look like an idiot.

I feel they were keeping their options open at that point. Plus these writers can only focus on one plot at a time. Not to mention they're obsessed with delivering twists to the point where they fail to set things up. It was a bad combination. It makes no sense why Zelena as Marian failed to bring up any of Regina's past sins, and was so quick to forgive her, or even wanted to live in a studio flat in New York!!

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I feel they were keeping their options open at that point. Plus these writers can only focus on one plot at a time. Not to mention they're obsessed with delivering twists to the point where they fail to set things up. It was a bad combination. It makes no sense why Zelena as Marian failed to bring up any of Regina's past sins, and was so quick to forgive her, or even wanted to live in a studio flat in New York!!

It's a 100% guarantee the writers had no idea Marian was Zelena until 4B. If they did know in 4A, there would have been so many more elegant solutions to the whole debacle. I still believe Zarian was damage control for Adultery Queen. The Robin rape takes your eyes off one vile act and puts it on another... for the three seconds needed. Then it's back to Regina's pain.

Edited December 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

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Baelfire and Hook’s flashback scenes in the S2 finale.

I love that flashback, and it was one of the reasons I decided to come back for season 3. 

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, RadioGirl27 said:

I love that flashback, and it was one of the reasons I decided to come back for season 3. 

Same here. I keep trying to quit, and they keep drawing me back. I think my first near-quit was sometime during the slow middle part of season one, when I had the feeling that this was going to be like Lost, where they were dragging things out slowly in the present, with barely anything happening, because they needed to fit in all the backstory, and they were mistaking "backstory" for "characterization." I don't remember what it was that kept me going at that time, other than perhaps stubbornness or nothing else being on. Then I came very close to quitting at "The Stable Boy" when they revealed why Regina had a vendetta against Snow. After all the crazy things she'd done, all the buildup, I was expecting something big, so it was hugely anticlimactic, and I feared we were heading for the woobie villain trope. But it was close to the end of the season, and the very end did suck me back in. Ah, if only I could have seen into the future, I could have saved myself a lot of time and suffering. I came very close to quitting in 2B with the dark heart nonsense, when Snow was criticized and punished for what I thought was something incredibly awesome. But then the finale happened, and I loved the Bae and Hook flashbacks. I hoped that meant we'd see more of their story in season 3 (ha, ha, ha!). Then I almost gave up on the show entirely when we got Tinkerbell Jesus Regina shooting light magic out of her ass, but then they did the season 3 finale, and that made me fall in love with the show again.

Now I just admit that I'm a sucker, and I'm being a completist. I've hung in this long, I may as well make it to the bitter end, and it's become amusing seeing just how bad it can get.

[KingOfHearts]

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Same here. I keep trying to quit, and they keep drawing me back

S6 has been the only season where there's been nothing to really draw me back. Even 4B promised Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent. 6B doesn't give us anything other than Fairy Poppins. (But she's not enough to carry it, really. She's an original A&E character, much like Lily or Isaac. I'm sure she'll be entertaining and intriguing, but her scenes are going to be scattered among Regina's boyfriend angst, Emma panic attacks, Jaladdin misadventures, and Rumpbelle drama.)

Edited December 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

She's an original A&E character

That phrase just sent shivers down my back.

[Mari]

It might not be all bad, @Camera One.  After all, Emma was an original A&E character, too.

(If it is bad, and it probably will be, we'll be here for you?)

[Camera One]

Good point.  Thanks for giving me HOPE.

[KingOfHearts]

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After all, Emma was an original A&E character, too.

Well, she is pretty much Buffy without the 90s teen quips, so.

I'm so glad Once doesn't have its own version of Xander...

Edited December 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Despite the problems, I have never been tempted to quit "Once Upon A Time".  Don't know if that means I should be in a treatment program or what, LOL.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Same here. I keep trying to quit, and they keep drawing me back. I think my first near-quit was sometime during the slow middle part of season one, when I had the feeling that this was going to be like Lost, where they were dragging things out slowly in the present, with barely anything happening, because they needed to fit in all the backstory, and they were mistaking "backstory" for "characterization." I don't remember what it was that kept me going at that time, other than perhaps stubbornness or nothing else being on. Then I came very close to quitting at "The Stable Boy" when they revealed why Regina had a vendetta against Snow. After all the crazy things she'd done, all the buildup, I was expecting something big, so it was hugely anticlimactic, and I feared we were heading for the woobie villain trope. But it was close to the end of the season, and the very end did suck me back in. Ah, if only I could have seen into the future, I could have saved myself a lot of time and suffering. I came very close to quitting in 2B with the dark heart nonsense, when Snow was criticized and punished for what I thought was something incredibly awesome. But then the finale happened, and I loved the Bae and Hook flashbacks. I hoped that meant we'd see more of their story in season 3 (ha, ha, ha!). Then I almost gave up on the show entirely when we got Tinkerbell Jesus Regina shooting light magic out of her ass, but then they did the season 3 finale, and that made me fall in love with the show again.

Now I just admit that I'm a sucker, and I'm being a completist. I've hung in this long, I may as well make it to the bitter end, and it's become amusing seeing just how bad it can get.

I was going to quit after 3B I had considered it in season two after all the crap Snow got for killing Cora who no one was apparently suppose to remember was in the process of killing everyone and Snow going to offer Regina of all people her heart, then after the stupid plan to save Regina and risk the entire town over that failsafe you know the thing Regina planned to use but never got a chance but stupidly figured it was a sophomore slump but I had enough in 3B with Regina's white magic and suppose to feel sorry for Cora that she was unable to pass of her baby as Leopold's and rage at Eva for telling Leopold. But then saw the finale and loved it. It was fun adventure watching Hook and Emma back in time in the Enchanted Forest, Emma watching her parents' fall in love, seeing Rumple, Hook punching himself, there were so many great moments.  I really should have quit then, and took notice of the last minute or so where Emma brings back Marion who Regina murdered in the Enchanted Forest but was undone by Emma saving her, for Regina's reaction being not horrified that she murdered her boyfriend's wife but pissed at Emma for bringing her back aka saving Marion's life. It would have been better just to quit then. Then I would have been spared the woe Regina, Snow and Charming becoming even more dumb and strolling to save their daughter while Snow encouraging Regina and Robin, the crypt sex, the half-assed it was really Zelena so Regina getting all high and mighty with Zelena for raping Robin even though she raped Graham for decades and murdered him when he dumped her, Emma begging Regina to be her friend, Regina's quest to force the author to give her a happy ending and everyone agreeing that she deserved one, Emma becoming the dark one and treated worse the Regina and Rumple despite the fact the worse thing she did was steal a girl's heart (to free Merlin) and turn Hook dark, and get to see even more villages Regina slaughtered, more crimes Rumple committed that none of them ever paid for anything, waste of new characters and settings, Cora getting into Heaven. But at this point its more I've made it this far might as well make to the bitter end, even though I'll probably hate it too. But the one good spot is this thread, its so fun, everyone's so cool, witty, and funny. Watching episodes, I can't wait to come in and see everyone's reactions to the episode. 

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Despite the problems, I have never been tempted to quit "Once Upon A Time".  Don't know if that means I should be in a treatment program or what, LOL.

I've thought, "I really should stop watching this show", many times, but I never actually do it. I'm too committed and involved. Until 6A the closest I ever came to quitting was in 5A. I know I'm in the minority, but I thought that arc was just too depressing. I actually thought the Underworld was slightly more upbeat.

Edited December 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm so glad Once doesn't have its own version of Xander...

You're in Season 1 and you already hate Xander? Good luck with that. Also, beware the Xander defense squad. 

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Despite the problems, I have never been tempted to quit "Once Upon A Time"

I've quit before and they always managed to bring me back with the finale. 2B with the Hook/Bae flashback and the whole group going to Neverland and then I flirted with it in 3B, but the finale brought back the fun adventure stuff I'd been missing. 4B was the first time the finale failed for me and by then I was invested in show because I like to make fun of it here. Now I'm stuck watching until the end, but sometimes I dread upcoming episodes because I wonder what character they're going to assassinate this time.  6B looks terrible. If it continues into Season 7, I don't know if I can make it.

[Rumsy4]

I wanted to quit after 2B (the finale kept me watching), 3B (same--finale), 4B (the promise of an Emma arc in 5A), and the 5B finale. Now, I'm watching more out of habit, and it's too much fun to bash the Show on this forum. 

[Camera One]

A hero NEVER stops watching a bad show.

[Dianthus]

I was thinking of quitting after Wish You Were Here (even if it did end on a cliffhanger). That, and the Regina pity party/suckfest of the s5 finale were just about more of my least favorite character than I could stand. I found myself wondering if I should just give up completely, keep watching regardless (most likely, I fear), or just give the A & E - penned eps a miss (hard to do, considering). 

[Souris]

I came ::thisclose:: to quitting after the 4A finale when there was no payoff to the Hook's heart arc & Emma dumped him to go have shots with Regina. I wish I had listened to my gut and quit then.

I haven't watched an ep since 6x06 and I haven't heard anything that would tempt me back into watching. Unless there's some sort of change, I don't think I will tune back in. I may watch a stray CS scene on YouTube if I hear there are any worth watching. But as of now, I'm done.

Guess I'm not a hero because I didn't thank the show for disappointing me!

Edited December 15, 2016 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

I think those of us still watching are like those random citizens of Storybrooke who should have fled town long ago, if they knew what was good for them, but somehow can't stop themselves from watching the trainwreck that is the lives of the "heroes". Like the dwarfs who can't stop complaining about the disasters, and even though they know Snow -and the other "heroes" are incompetent, keep running to them expecting them to fix the problems the "heroes" themselves caused.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Rumsy4

[daxx]

Truthfully I'm still hope watching. I hope they will use the potential in the show and write episodes I want to see.

i may be disappointed but I'm in it for the long haul.

[maryle]

There very few episode  I like enough to watch a second time. (The pilot, the season 3, final, good form) this show is better in YouTube clip.

But, bleeding through and the episode Regina use light magic will always be hate by me.

Breaking Glass special kind of hate because it officially the strange sub- Dom relationship between Emma and Reina. 

The season 5 final because it was boring mostly and the beginning of the all Regina all the time hours.

Season 6  as a whole is the worst for me. Its a blurry mess marked with campy scene or scene without any impact moyen or long term for the story. GQ for all the screen time devolute to it already don't matter. 

Maybe, the Savior mythology will have some significance or interest in 6b but that didn't happened in the first half. 

If that happened or a episode catch my Interest I will watch it completely but for now on I don't feeling I will miss anything if I read this forum. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

The Snowing spoiler is really sad to me. An aging ensemble show can't afford to lose those viewers who are more engaged with Snowing over Regina or Rumpel - even if they are only a small percentage of the audience. I've been able to stick through arcs featuring characters that aren't my favorites because I know that something more up my alley will come along. If my two favorite characters spent a half season of episodes sleeping, I wouldn't be encouraged to stick around. 

 

16 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers really have no clue what storylines would be interesting or attractive to their audience of nearly six years. Apparently, they only take the vocal Twitter fans of one character seriously. 

The Writers write two types of stories:

1) The stories THEY want to tell, about the characters they like writing for.  The storylines for Regina and Rumple generally fall into this category.  

2) The stories that they make up with little care or interest, to fill screentime for characters they are obligated to write for.  This would be Snowing and often Emma.  The only way they knew to make Emma interesting last season was to make her not Emma at all - thus the Dark Swan storyline.  And now in 6A once again, they don't know what to do with her - so the haphazardly created Savior-will-die prophesy.  With Snowing, after a 1-2 episode stint, they're usually pushed aside and abruptly cut off from having a main role (eg. in 5A, their sanding was immediately undone, and they were cast aside; in 5B, halfway through, Snow got sent home; in 6A, they got to fall asleep).  And when they do get featured, they're completely out of character, as in 4B, which reinforces that only shady characters get screentime.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Taking this from the Other Fairy Tales thread:

 I do think the on-going new sleeping curse is the closest they have come to that in awhile -- where you see how it is affecting people's day to day lives.

Which is pretty sad because the consequences was only a dialogue-less segment.  The only glimpse how Snow is feeling is when she crumpled the piece of paper.  The next episode, Snow is marking papers and if you tuned in after missing a few weeks, you wouldn't even know Charming is under a Sleeping Curse!  Not to mention none of the family members - Emma, Henry, heck, Snow and Charming themselves have been allowed to express how they are feeling.  Shouldn't Snowing be going to Archie, since never seeing their loved one awake again is pretty traumatizing.  And what about the practical implications?  Does it not matter that half the Sheriff department is unable to work?   Plot-wise, literally no one is attempting to find a solution to the Sleeping Curse situation.  It's pretty much a dead-end storyline on all fronts.  And when they inevitably find a solution and they wake up - we don't even have to place a bet that a magical object will pop up out of nowhere, and they will never speak of this experience again!

[Shanna Marie]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And what about the practical implications?  Does it not matter that half the Sheriff department is unable to work?

I've been worried about the baby. Who was watching Snowflake while David was running around trying to steal the lamp in the last episode? A mother under a sleeping curse isn't the same thing as a sleeping parent in the house since she can't wake up if the baby cries or the smoke detector goes off.

And I doubt there will be any consequences in the aftermath. We won't see Snow and David reluctant to be apart from each other after going so long without being able to interact. We won't get any indication that they're having nightmares or that they're afraid to fall asleep, or they're almost afraid to kiss each other for fear of what might happen.

It's like all the season 5 darkness that may as well not have happened. You'd never know that Emma spent half the season as a Dark One, that she faced losing Hook several times, that Hook was forced to be a Dark One and died a pretty awful death and then was tortured. I guess all the blood and indication of terrible torture was shock value for the moment, since it had absolutely no impact on his character or the way others relate to him. That's the kind of thing I meant when we were discussing this in the Other Fairy Tales thread, that the point of darkness in fiction is to do something so drastic that it has to affect the characters and the story, and it pulls the audience in for stronger emotion. But they skip that part entirely. It's just for momentary shock, not for true emotional impact, which essentially makes it darkness porn, the darkness divorced from the emotional context and with no real reason other than shock. I'm still amazed that they devoted half a season to two of the characters being made into Dark Ones, and only resolved that situation with the sacrifice of one character, who was later brought back from the dead after being tortured in the Underworld, and you can't tell at all in the episodes that came after that. If you missed season 5 and were watching season 6, you wouldn't know anything had happened. It hasn't even been mentioned, not even so much as Belle commenting that Hook was alive when she saw him again or Hook making wisecracks about having been dead.

[Camera One]

I forgot all about the baby.  Even though I don't care about him much, the baby alone raises a whole slew of examples of inconsistencies and unfathomable decisions on the part of the characters.  For example, why did they decide to bring the baby (and Roland) to Camelot in 5A?  Was there any thought to the baby when Snowing decided to bait Arthur in "The Broken Kingdom"?  And then in 5B, it was suddenly all about missing the baby.  Yet I don't think they even mentioned the baby when they were captured in The Land of Untold Stories; neither were they afraid for the safety of the baby throughout 6A, when their mortal enemy The Evil Queen was in town.  In fact, Snow decided she wanted to go back to teaching full-time.  As mentioned by several people, these are not real people - they're robots.  Though it blatantly shows that they did NOT discuss Snow and Charming's character motivations at all throughout the planning stages for Season 5 nor 6A.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

You gotta love how Snow just started going back to her teaching job and now is in a coma. I'm sure after she's cured, she'll be welcome back with question. It's pretty silly that she can get a teaching job and then leave whenever she wants to. I'm not saying that she had control of the sleeping curse, but in 4A, she decided to be mayor. Then in 4B, she went back to teaching. Apparently she quit the job some time between being away in Camelot and the Underworld. And now, in 6A, she's back to teaching again. Maybe the faculty are allegiant to Snowing's kingdom and thus feel obligated to let her do whatever she wants? How does that affect the students? What the heck does Snow teach, anyway? In S1, she was teaching kids about birdhouses, then in 4B she was teaching about birds again, and then in 6A it was about Newtonian physics. It's weird to me that the Queen is an elementary teacher. If the We Are Both thing had any real bearing, it would make more sense. But that hasn't mattered since 2A. Snow is nothing like S1 Mary Margaret.

Edited December 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

You gotta love how Snow just started going back to her teaching job and now is in a coma. I'm sure after she's cured, she'll be welcome back with question.

It looks like she's still teaching. She has the day shift of being awake, and she was grading papers and talking about the kids finally getting it. David seems to have the night shift, so he was doing sheriff-type stuff at night. We see the baby bed by the bed when the sleeper wakes up, but no hint of who's babysitting while she's teaching and he's playing sheriff. They can't even do the "Belle's babysitting offscreen" thing because she's been otherwise occupied.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Shanna Marie
Freudian slip

[Camera One]

Quote

We see the baby bed by the bed when the sleeper wakes up, but no hint of who's babysitting while she's teaching

And Emma and Henry have moved out, so no one is upstairs.  Or maybe Mulan, Ariel, Aurora, Cinderella, Eric, Philip, and all the Disney Princes and Princesses hang out upstairs now to help babysit when they're asleep.  Or maybe Flora, Fauna and Merriweather comes over at night.  It's a sad reminder of how cool this universe could be.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

I just figured that the fairies ran a daycare at the convent.

It's not like they do useful fairy stuff.  

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, Mari said:

It's not like they do useful fairy stuff.  

I wish the fairies on Once were more like the Ghost of Christmas Present in Scrooged.

[Camera One]

The weird looks that Blue gives actually makes the character and the fairies in general way more interesting than the writing permits.

Like Granny.  I swear sometimes the best thing about an episode is Granny saying a line.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The weird looks that Blue gives actually makes the character and the fairies in general way more interesting than the writing permits.

The writers should totally go the Bashir route and make Blue evil or at least shady. The way she's been portrayed, I would totally believe that retcon.

Quote

Like Granny.  I swear sometimes the best thing about an episode is Granny saying a line.

I just want to see a scene where Granny misses her granddaughter she lived with for years. How does she feel knowing she couldn't make Red at home? It's weird that Red was looking for her pack and other werewolves, when she already had one. We haven't seen her miss her grandmother either. It's sad that all of her great relationships were sacrificed for a contrived, unsatisfying romance with a random stranger.

Edited December 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She doesn't even need to be evil.  Just being a sanctimonious guardian of the universe is pretty interesting to me.  There are so many possibilities for world-building.

And to have Red back in Camelot and having nothing with Granny shows how one-track the Writers are.  Their only "use" for Red was to squeeze in the Ruby Slippers thing.  To hell (literally) with her character development, or lackthereof.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

She doesn't even need to be evil.  Just being a sanctimonious guardian of the universe is pretty interesting to me.  There are so many possibilities for world-building.

I could believe she's had to dip into taboo to keep the universe in control. We saw in S1 she had to lie in order to provide the wardrobe for Snowing. She probably keeps a lot hidden or pretends to know little (sort of like Gandalf) in order to work efficiently behind the scenes. Again, I'm thinking DS9. Section 13 anyone?

Quote

A&E probably thinks Gandalf is boring.  After all, they made Merlin into a complete idiot.

Perfect Merlin description. "He's like Gandalf but he's an idiot with less facial hair."

Edited December 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

A&E probably thinks Gandalf is boring.  After all, they made Merlin into a complete idiot.  That's why I had been hoping for Blue to be involved in the flashbacks, with disagreements about how to deal with Nimue.  Because Merlin messed up, big time.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think Once's problem is that they broke the original curse way too early.  Most shows, like Buffy, stick with the original concept of the show for four or five years until its completely wrung out and they are forced to reinvent the show or end it.

Once clearly didn't have a long term plan for how to keep the show going after the curse broke so I think they should have kept the curse in place longer while they figured it out.  I tend to think that would have forced more in depth characterization.

 

31 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Break the curse, but don't bring magic in a way that makes it exactly like EF. That's what I would have liked to see.

I think both of those could have worked.  While I liked 2A and I do agree that the bigger problem was not necessarily breaking the Curse, but not dealing with the Curse fallout (and bringing magic to Storybrooke was the WORST mistake of all), I think one route would have been to end Season 1 on a different cliffhanger with the Curse still intact.  Team Princess could have been delayed to Season 3.

Having Emma believe in the Season 1 finale would have been a must.  That alone would have been a big enough development, since we could *finally* see Emma fight Regina using different tactics, now that she knows but Regina doesn't know she knows.  Since Jefferson was in the Season 1 finale, he could have helped Emma to connect the dots.  Maybe David could be in the hospital for a check-up and he starts exhibiting symptoms that reminded Emma of what happened to Graham.  This would have tied in well with the flashbacks.  So the episode could end with Emma helping to "wake" David up, and he tells her to TLK Henry.  Emma finally believing, meeting her father, and realizing that Graham was murdered... that would have been a good enough cliffhanger for Season 2 as the underground movement against The Evil Queen begins.  

Edited December 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

So the episode could end with Emma helping to "wake" David up, and he tells her to TLK Henry.  Emma finally believing, meeting her father, and realizing that Graham was murdered... that would have been a good enough cliffhanger for Season 2 as the underground movement against The Evil Queen begins.  

I have mixed feelings about this. I love the idea of an underground movement against Regina in Storybrooke, with just a few rebels aware of reality and gradually working to bring others to the cause. That could have been amazing. At the same time, though, the way they brought about Emma's believing and the curse breaking was one of the few perfect and beautiful things this show has done -- Henry making the sacrifice and eating the turnover to force Emma to believe, leading to her believing and then unwittingly breaking the curse with her kiss of love, so that it was really Regina herself who brought about her own downfall with her attempt to poison Emma. I would hate to lose that, and it's hard to find a way to write around it while still having the curse not entirely broken but with Emma already believing.

I do wish they'd done at least half a season with the memory part of the curse broken but without magic. That way, they'd have been on an even footing with Regina, and that might have made her redemption work better if she'd truly suffered. It would have made for some nice symmetry if she'd been the one having to hide out in the woods. Meanwhile, Rumple could have become more of an antagonist as he had to scheme to get to the True Love potion so he could bring back magic.

[Camera One]

Quote

At the same time, though, the way they brought about Emma's believing and the curse breaking was one of the few perfect and beautiful things this show has done -- Henry making the sacrifice and eating the turnover to force Emma to believe, leading to her believing and then unwittingly breaking the curse with her kiss of love, so that it was really Regina herself who brought about her own downfall with her attempt to poison Emma. I would hate to lose that, and it's hard to find a way to write around it while still having the curse not entirely broken but with Emma already believing.

I loved the apple turnover as well, and it also ranks as one of my favorite moments.  So I too was torn when thinking of an alternate scenario.  I would still have kept that.  I also loved Regina realizing that she was the one who had hurt Henry.

But maybe it's because I was also let down by several parts of "A Land Without Magic".  I found the Emma and Regina closet scene anti-climatic and unsatisfying... it was too much, too fast.  Emma believing should have been a moment in itself, but then it was thrown in with Emma confronting Regina AND Regina finding out Emma believed.  AND we never got to see Emma re-evaluate Storybrooke and her parents given her big realization.   I feel that the Writers were fast-forwarding developments as quickly as possible so that Emma and Regina would need to work TOGETHER to save Henry.  In hindsight, this was their SQ interest peeking through.  I was not ready for Emma and Regina to work together yet.   

So that's why I would have preferred the apple turnover incident, and Emma coming to the realization and belief through this episode, maybe with Jefferson and some last words from August before he turned to wood.  We would get to see Emma SEE Mary Margaret, David, Granny, etc. AFTER she believed, but they didn't remember yet.  Mary Margaret could have asked why Emma was looking at her like that.  Instead, this episode completely segregated Mary Margaret and David in their own subplot.  Regina could have been off in her vault kicking herself, maybe concocting something that she THINKS revives Henry, while Emma wakes up David, and learns how to TLK Henry with Regina being none the wiser.  Rumple could have been distracted by finding Belle, who DOESN'T regain her memories.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But maybe it's because I was also let down by several parts of "A Land Without Magic".  I found the Emma and Regina closet scene anti-climatic and unsatisfying... it was too much, too fast.  Emma believing should have been a moment in itself, but then it was thrown in with Emma confronting Regina AND Regina finding out Emma believed.  AND we never got to see Emma re-evaluate Storybrooke given her big realization.   I feel that the Writers were fast-forwarding developments as quickly as possible so that Emma and Regina would need to work TOGETHER to save Henry.  In hindsight, this was their SQ interest peeking through.  I was not ready for Emma and Regina to work together yet.   

While I actually loved the Emma/Regina closet scene (that sounded dirty), I agree that this episode was trying to create too many developments at once. There had been a pretty slow pace up until Henry ate the turnover, then boom - everything just happened at once. While finales usually have quite a bit more plot movement, The Land Without Magic put too many eggs in one basket. That's a bigger issue with the writer's plan for S2. You could tell they no longer had interest in cursed personalities, Emma's realization, or any sense of realism. S1 got dropped like a hot potato.

The Land Without Magic is still one of my favorite episodes and it's extremely satisfying to watch. I just wish they would have stretched the plot a little bit out more. That would have benefited the show in the long run.

Quote

Rumple could have been distracted by finding Belle, who DOESN'T regain her memories.

Either Rumple and Belle should have been reunited later or Belle should have just dropped him after Lacey.

Edited December 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Henry could have stayed in the sleeping curse coma longer, I guess. Don't have the "he's going to die, we're giving up on him" moment that led to Emma kissing him good-bye. Then have an episode or two of her looking at the town and her family with new eyes while they don't know the truth. Meanwhile, Regina's frantically trying to find an antidote for her own curse and too distracted by that to notice how things are starting to unravel once Emma starts believing. I'd put that in place of the battle against Maleficent to get the potion, since we're delaying the return of magic, anyway.

Belle and Rumple can be reunited, even with her having her memories. She just has to look at the current situation, realize that he hasn't changed and that he's responsible for the curse, and go off to find her father rather than having anything to do with Rumple.

[CCTC]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

 

Henry could have stayed in the sleeping curse coma longer, I guess.

 

I think there are a few people who might say 5 or 6 or 10 more years (although probably not at the time).

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more on the end of season one, it occurred to me that the TLK between Emma and Henry really doesn't make much sense, if you think about it. Why would a kiss between the two people not affected by the curse break it? They were the two people who knew who they were and what was really going on. So that makes it all an easier fix. Emma still breaks the sleeping curse on Henry with the TLK, which totally seals her belief and fully activates her Savior status, but the memory spell is in place still -- though weakening. The more Emma believes, the weaker the curse grows, so more and more people are starting to come out of it. They're resisting in little ways, moving away from their curse programming, and Regina is losing her iron grip on the town. The TLK that should break the curse is between Emma and Snow, as mother and daughter. Snow was the one the curse was aimed at, after all, and she was at the center of it, so she should be at the center of breaking it, and the curse tore apart the mother and daughter, so it makes sense that the breaking would involve them being brought back together. There's also the greater challenge, since the kiss doesn't work with Snow not knowing who she is, but once Emma believes, she can love Snow as a mother, and Snow can be coming to love her as a friend. The kiss can finally work when just about everyone else is coming out of the curse, and Snow takes a leap of faith to believe, even if she doesn't really remember.