A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

The eighth episode usually serves as the catalyst for the arc's climax, with few exceptions. ("Lily" doesn't contribute, and 2B doesn't really have a catalyst episode.) After watching the episode, I felt "I'll Be Your Mirror" was trying to fall into the same category. There was plenty of action to go around, but nothing meaningful. The Mirror World was more of a dilemma-of-the-week and Wicked Beauty's plan just pissed Rumple off some more. Everything else was just Henry's mommy issues. All the show really seems to be building up to is Rumple going postal over Damien and Emma dealing with the Hooded Figure. While those two things were addressed in the episode, there was no change in the status quo to begin the climax with.

A&E probably thought 6x08 was important, but it really wasn't. (None of S6 has been, to be honest.)

Edited November 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

With all the talk about "getting back to season one," I've been thinking about what, exactly, made season one what it was:

• A single strong through-line for the story arc in the past and present: In the past, it was about what led to the casting of the curse, and in the present it was building up to the breaking of the curse. There were some side plot and subplots, but they all tied back into that single plot. We also knew from the first episode exactly what that story was. That's definitely not happening this season, as we still don't know exactly what the Evil Queen's plan is or what Rumple's plan is, and there's not really any one goal for the heroes. The flashbacks have mostly been one-offs. Nothing really seems to tie into anything.
• An obvious, clear-cut villain. Regina was the villain in the past and present. We knew exactly what she wanted, and we knew what her plan was for getting it. Rumple was an occasional antagonist, but he was part of Regina's story (until we learned that she was really part of his story). There might have been other villains in the one-offs, but Regina was still a villain in the present. That's definitely not the case in this season, where we have the Evil Queen, Rumple, and the various single-episode villains who are entirely unrelated to their story.
• Focus on the core characters -- the story was about the core regulars, the relationships between Emma and Henry, Emma and Mary Margaret, Mary Margaret/Snow and David/Charming, Regina and Henry, the antagonism between Regina and Emma and Regina and Snow/Mary Margaret. Then there were the townspeople who were semi-regulars -- Granny, Red, Archie, Marco, Blue, Leroy. There weren't a lot of guest characters because we were still exploring the regular cast. I think they think they're doing that this season, and I guess they kind of have, though not in the ongoing, developing way they did in season one. Emma and Mary Margaret and Emma and Henry were a season-long process, not like, say, Henry out of the blue expressing problems with Hook and then resolving them in one episode.
• Storybrooke as a setting that's practically a character -- Not only was the whole season set in Storybrooke (in the present), but the fact of the town was important. We had a regular cast of supporting characters populating the town. Even though they didn't know they were fairy tale characters, there was still a sense that this was a fairy tale kind of place that made real-world Emma a fish out of water. It was like the town was trying to pose as part of the real world and not quite making it, which showed up in the old cars and outdated technology. It was like a warped Mayberry. Again, I think they think they're doing this. At least, they're not leaving Storybrooke, but the town somehow feels less storybook now that the people know they're from a magical land. It's like a ghost town only populated by the regular characters. We aren't exploring the nature of the town. Even bringing in the Untold Stories people didn't create a culture clash. They told us that Violet wasn't fitting in, but we didn't see what that looked like, and why would she not fit into a school filled with kids from the same world where she grew up? She should fit in better there than Henry does.
• Semi self-contained episodes within the arc, focusing on helping a specific individual find a happy ending -- In season one, while the overall arc was about Regina trying to thwart Emma and prevent her from breaking the curse, the individual episodes were often about people whose happy endings had been taken away by Regina in the curse and Emma helping them out. One thing that helped a lot there was that many of the people they later did one-offs about were established as townspeople up front. There were a few, like Hansel and Gretel, who only appeared for their episode, but otherwise we already knew them as townspeople before we saw their centric and learned their backstory. They seem to have been trying to do that this season, with the Untold Stories people, but with a different impact. They've all been entirely one-off, aside from Aladdin and Jasmine. We didn't see them around town or get to know them before we learned who they were and what they needed, and for the most part, they've just vanished since then, even when one of the people helped was Hook's brother, who hasn't been mentioned since then. And it seems like they've lost interest in helping anyone from the Untold Stories world, as that seems to have stopped with Nemo and Liam. We've had two episodes that didn't involve Untold Stories people. How much helping have they really done? The Count of Monte Cristo got killed and Jekyll and Hyde got killed. They helped Ashley's stepsister and Liam and Nemo. So far, Aladdin and Jasmine are a wash -- helped by being reunited, but they haven't really had their stories completed. Compare that to season one, which was much more optimistic: Ruby found her independence and decided for herself to come back to Granny's on her own terms, Ashley got to keep her baby and was reunited with her love, Hansel and Gretel found their father, Archie learned to stand up for himself against Regina. The only downers were Graham getting killed and Nova being a nun when Leroy found her so that things didn't work out.

I feel like they missed what worked in season one and picked either the wrong things to replicate or didn't get what worked about the things they replicated.

[Camera One]

And it seems like they've lost interest in helping anyone from the Untold Stories world, as that seems to have stopped with Nemo and Liam. We've had two episodes that didn't involve Untold Stories people. How much helping have they really done?

Yeah, there's nothing more dangerous than an Untold Story.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...  Henry's new book is probably somewhere in a trash heap.  The school dance is much more important.

[Curio]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking about where we're normally at, eight episodes into an arc.

Season 2: "Into The Deep"... David contacts Mary Margaret in the fire room.  One more episode before Snow and Emma come home.

3A: "Think Lovely Thoughts"... Peter Pan was just about to follow-through on his big plan, and we finally learned his backstory.  One more episode left in Neverland.

3B: "A Curious Thing"... we found out the origins of the latest Curse.  The next episode would be the birth of the baby and Zelena would be able to bring her plan to fruition.

4A: "Smash The Mirror"... we had already gotten The Snow Queen's origin story the episode before, and we find out how she got to the World Without Magic and how Elsa got into the urn.  We see the ramifications of Shattered Sight while it is set off at the end of this episode.

4B: "Lily"... road trip from our favorite duo... ok, getting off track here.  The whole Lily being Maleficent's daughter arc reaches a climax as Emma fights Adult Lily.  The big "surprise" for Robin with Zelena being Marian and Zelena being preggers.

5A: "Birth"... Merlin's plan is about to come to fruition, but the plan is ruined.  Hook is mortally wounded, and he becomes The Dark One.

5B: "Sisters"...  Zelena and Regina reconciles for the first time, and there's a chance that Zelena's relationship with Hades might be their way out.  One more episode left in the Underworld.

6A: "I'll Be Your Mirror"... The Evil Queen causes problems but everything is reset by the end of the episode.  Meanwhile, Henry has relationship problems, Snow and Charming eat breakfast and sleep, Emma and Regina look at a bunch of mirrors and big cliffhanger, Rumple is weely weely mad at Zelena.  Who the hell knows what stunt The Evil Queen will pull next week because she has no long-term goals, and they are no closer to defeating her.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to get A&E to do a full-season arc... hopefully, they realize that it's best to let them play with their shiny toys for half a season and then get some new toys in the second half.

 

Thanks for pointing all of these out, @Camera One. It really shows how slow and unexciting this season's overall plot is. The writers miscalculated how many people would enjoy a double Regina plot, and they really miscalculated stretching it out as long as they have. I wish they were still doing a split season structure this year, but now I can't even be excited about the demise of the Evil Queen at the end of Episode 11 because they'll probably stretch her arc out even longer because the writers have no restrictions. Dark Swan and Dark Hook felt too rushed and could have used extra episodes, so maybe the writers feel robbed of that story and are saying "screw you" to ABC by making double Regina as long as they want...except the audience doesn't want to see that. Even Regina fans seem over this double Regina story line.

At the end of "Birth" last year, I was literally sitting at the edge of my seat, mouth agape, and saying, "No way! This is awesome!" to my inanimate television. This year, I practically fell asleep during the eighth episode, and in fact, I was convinced it was only Episode 6 or 7. "It can't be Episode 8 already...nothing has happened this season." I can't believe we're nearly at the halfway point and every episode has felt like filler. I just want Regina to reabsorb the Evil Queen already, Emma to fight the hooded figure and win, and Belle to have her baby just so we can move on to the next shiny toy. Anything has to be better than this. (Except for 4B...)

I keep thinking of the quote A&E said about trying to keep the audience on their toes by not doing their normal routine in Season 6. "It’s not going to be Hyde comes to town, we fight with him for 10 episodes, and then in the winter finale he dies and we move on." So instead of organically plotting out Hyde's story, the writers weren't thinking about this character development, they were thinking, "You know what would really surprise the audience? If we killed both Jekyll and Hyde off in Episode 4! No one will suspect we'd do it that quickly!" And then they sacrificed good storytelling to get their "shocking" twist.

[daxx]

I would be happy, no ecstatic with this pace if they used the filler to develop their main character relationships.

They are wasting so much time with Golden Queen, spa day, etc.. Imagine if instead we had a scene with Emma talking with Snow about how she felt when she tried to use the dagger on Emma and how she felt when they basically abandoned her during the dark swan arc. Get those feelings all out in the open and deal with it, become closer like you know family.

If Hook and Charmz had a brief talk about the campfire discussion and he tells Killian we do approve of you, not that you or Emma need our approval.

if the discussion that snow queen had didn't have Snow poo pooing Regina's statement about being a bad mother and accepted her sort of apology instead of saying she's a better person for the abuse.

So much lost potential in this show for meaty, emotional scenes that would grow these characters.

[YaddaYadda]

But emotions and discussions are boring to A&E. If it's not plot, it doesn't matter.

I mean even this Regina storyline which is supposed to be their big one this half, they let both halves twisting in the wind. As a viewer, I have no clue how these characters feel at all. 

[Daisy]

in the middle of re-watch. 
I still honestly believe the writers made a grave mistake not giving Charmings a Girl Baby Do Over (and naming her Hope) vs. naming him Neal. that's basically what the Charmings are. Hope, Faith, Belief.  I never thought i'd be so irritated about it, but it still bugs me as much as it did seeing it live. 

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, Daisy said:

in the middle of re-watch. 
I still honestly believe the writers made a grave mistake not giving Charmings a Girl Baby Do Over (and naming her Hope) vs. naming him Neal. that's basically what the Charmings are. Hope, Faith, Belief.  I never thought i'd be so irritated about it, but it still bugs me as much as it did seeing it live. 

I would have had some serious issues if they had given Snowing another girl. That would have smacked of replacement baby. The speech in the Echo Caves was already wrong on so many levels, add a baby girl to the mix...

[Rumsy4]

Not that a boy was better, considering David always wanted a son. And Snow was afraid of Emma's "potential for darkness" when she was a fetus. So, it's like they got the replacement child they had wanted in the first place. 

[Rumsy4]

I think writing-in Ginny's pregnancy was a mistake. They used the baby to show MM was afraid of Emma's magic, and to have her guilt-trip Emma in the UW. But otherwise, the baby's been relegated to off-screenville. The montage of Snowing taking care of Snowflake in the last episode was sweet. I think they should have more such moments in the Show--that's a good way to give non-intrusive screentime to a baby.

On the other side, Zelena's role has become solely relegated to taking care of her baby and being jealous of the EQ (once again). That's another terribly-named baby. Regina has shown zero interest in the baby, despite the fact that she was ready to co-parent it with Robin when he was alive. It reduces the whole soulmate connection that Regina is so easily able to forget both of Robin's children. 

With the introduction of Dark Baby, Rumbelle drama has become a custody battle. Obviously the vibe is different when Rumple is stalking/threatening Belle for herself alone, and when he is doing it for the baby. It gives a kind of false legitimacy to his behavior (and thus more dangerous). 

With all the daddy!Killian hints, I'm afraid Emma's going to be pregnant this season. If she ends up pregnant, I hope she'll take her pirate and move to Australia. 

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I would have had some serious issues if they had given Snowing another girl. That would have smacked of replacement baby. The speech in the Echo Caves was already wrong on so many levels, add a baby girl to the mix...

But the thing is - it wouldn't have mattered. The baby is  a replacement baby. Like wrong or not, (Echo Caves speech) I never blamed Snow for wanting to be a mother again from day 1.  She wanted the sleepless nights, and poop-filled diapers, first steps, first words, first everythings, that she didn't get with Emma (and for the longest time, Emma even withheld from her for a myriad of reasons).  and I think it would have been a great story-telling angle that Baby Girl Charming #2 literally gets everything that Baby Girl Charming #1 didn't.  I think truly, it would have made a great constant side-story. Especially as the seasons go on, and all Snow + David quite frankly see in Emma is Saviour-power.

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Not that a boy was better, considering David always wanted a son. And Snow was afraid of Emma's "potential for darkness" when she was a fetus. So, it's like they got the replacement child they had wanted in the first place. 

Yup. 

25 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think writing-in Ginny's pregnancy was a mistake. They used the baby to show MM was afraid of Emma's magic, and to have her guilt-trip Emma in the UW. But otherwise, the baby's been relegated to off-screenville. The montage of Snowing taking care of Snowflake in the last episode was sweet. I think they should have more such moments in the Show--that's a good way to give non-intrusive screentime to a baby.

On the other side, Zelena's role has become solely relegated to taking care of her baby and being jealous of the EQ (once again). That's another terribly-named baby. Regina has shown zero interest in the baby, despite the fact that she was ready to co-parent it with Robin when he was alive. It reduces the whole soulmate connection that Regina is so easily able to forget both of Robin's children. 

With the introduction of Dark Baby, Rumbelle drama has become a custody battle. Obviously the vibe is different when Rumple is stalking/threatening Belle for herself alone, and when he is doing it for the baby. It gives a kind of false legitimacy to his behavior (and thus more dangerous). 

With all the daddy!Killian hints, I'm afraid Emma's going to be pregnant this season. If she ends up pregnant, I hope she'll take her pirate and move to Australia. 

This is so the case. the show (unlike most) seems to write in the pregnancies of most of the characters (not Ginny's second one), but wasn't Emilie pregnant too? but most of these babies are "useless" because they aren't doing anything with it. Baby Do Over is just around because Snow still wants to have adventures. like you said, Baby Pistachio has zero uses now that Robin is dead. Baby Morpheus will  be a blip on the radar if this show lasts another season. Sometimes you just get the feeling it would have been better to just giant bag Ginny, and Emilie, and ditched the Baby Pistachio storyline. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/15/2016 at 10:07 PM, Camera One said:

Yeah, there's nothing more dangerous than an Untold Story.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...  Henry's new book is probably somewhere in a trash heap.  The school dance is much more important.

You know, that whole Henry/Violet thing is practically a case study for what's wrong with this season (and the show):

• There was no setup -- Have we even seen Violet this season other than that hallway kiss at school? Has she even been mentioned? And now all of a sudden she's having so much trouble fitting in that she thinks she's not good enough for Henry and Henry is having relationship angst that's apparently been going on for a while.
• The timeline and continuity are wonky -- The montage seemed to cover several days, and it looks like it started after several days, so this latest episode may have covered more time than some entire arcs, but before that it seemed like the episodes were coming pretty quickly, which means they've been back from the Underworld and New York for maybe a couple of weeks, three at the most. During that time, Henry spent the first few days on his census and interviews of the Untold Stories people and spent a whole day helping track down Ashley and a whole day trapped on the Nautilus. For the past several days, his grandparents have been under a sleeping curse. When did he have time to watch John Hughes movies with Violet and have enough dates with her for her to have stood him up enough for him to start feeling like something was wrong?
• They completely forget about their world and what they've already set up -- Violet's feeling out of place, but all the other kids in the school other than whoever's joined them from the Land of Untold Stories are from the world where she grew up. She'd fit in pretty well with the established kids, and the Untold Stories kids would be the newcomers who were out of place. Or she could fall in with the newcomers without feeling like the only new kid. Meanwhile, she's worried that she's not good enough for Henry because she doesn't fit in, but Henry's the outsider who doesn't seem to have a single friend in the school. We've never had mention of a friend, never seen him hanging out with anyone. That seems like it should have been more of an issue than her thinking she can't be with him because she doesn't fit in. And doesn't he have other things to worry about at the moment, like his adoptive mother's evil half, a new stepdad moving in, and his grandparents under a sleeping curse? Yeah, life goes on, and all that, but is dating really a priority now?
• The interesting stuff takes place off-screen -- playing out The Breakfast Club among various storybook and fairy tale kids would have been a lot of fun. What would a Saturday detention with Henry (busted for skipping school to go off on various heroic missions), Hansel and Gretel, Huck Finn, and Tom Sawyer and run by Snow White look like? Why didn't we see Violet's struggles? Are the kids forming a kind of Dumbledore's Army to protect themselves against the threats coming in from the outside world? Wouldn't Henry have said something sooner about Violet standing him up? Since he's now on good terms with Hook, wouldn't he have asked for advice? They gave themselves some good opportunities to play with the culture clash and the mix of real world and storybook stuff, and they totally blew it. As usual.
• It's an easy fix that they couldn't be bothered to make -- why even have the relationship angst? The dance could have been an attempt to welcome the Untold Stories kids. Henry could have been torn about participating while his grandparents are under a sleeping curse, with his moms encouraging him that life goes on. Or the dance could have been his and Violet's idea, but he's worried that it won't work. Did he need to be angsting about a girlfriend for the Evil Queen to try to Darth Vader him?

On 11/16/2016 at 7:26 AM, YaddaYadda said:

If it's not plot, it doesn't matter.

The problem with this season is that there is no plot. The Evil Queen didn't decide what she wanted until the end of episode 6, and we still don't see any sign of an endgame for her. Is she totally happy now that the Charmings are in a fix and she's snogging Rumple? A contented villain who has what she wants makes for a boring story. Rumple's only endgame seems to be to keep Belle in line so he won't lose access to his son. Neither of these villain goals are particularly earthshattering. It sucks for the Charmings and Belle, but it's not exactly threatening the whole town. The Evil Queen isn't even doing anything to try to wrest control of the town away from Regina.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

With all the daddy!Killian hints, I'm afraid Emma's going to be pregnant this season. If she ends up pregnant, I hope she'll take her pirate and move to Australia. 

If Emma's pregnant, it pretty much kills the Savior dilemma because it would be silly for her to cling to a fate that dooms her and that isn't doing any practical good (it's not as though she's saving people left and right at the moment or that she's needed to combat the lack of imminent threat) when that would also either doom her unborn child or leave her child motherless.

[Mari]

So there's no plot, and I can't say I feel particularly enlightened about what most of the characters are actually thinking/feeling, apart from whatever their one issue is this season.

What, exactly, are A&E trying to accomplish?  Because I don't think this is it.

[Delphi]

5 hours ago, Mari said:

So there's no plot, and I can't say I feel particularly enlightened about what most of the characters are actually thinking/feeling, apart from whatever their one issue is this season.

What, exactly, are A&E trying to accomplish?  Because I don't think this is it.

Are they really trying to accomplish anything,  is the question.   I mean, this is going to sound bad,  but honestly,  they don't have to try.   They don't have to work on it.   Once has this now hard core shipper fan base that's not going anywhere.   Whether it's CS, RB, OQ, Snowing.  These fans are staying for their ships so they don't have to actually try to further the story.   It's like if JK Rowling realized that everyone would keep on reading in book 4 and just typed the rest without actually giving a crap. 

[Camera One]

The disturbing thing is they do care and they think they're telling a gripping, clever and well-written character-based story about the murky area between good and evil.  

[maryle]

What disturbing me the most is what they are doing for Emma development or the lack of. 

Almost all character could have a respectable closure this year. 

I mean ending the rumbelle(by tlk or have Rumble sacrifice himself) soap opera in any way is overdue. Regina making peace with her shadow and having closure with Robin is correct. Snowing after ending another sleeping curse deserve their happy ending.

But, I am sorry Emma need something better than that what I saw with her suppose Savior arc.

What the point except to make her depress and angsty. 

[Camera One]

The writers are very limited their creativity and ideas.  To them, a morally good character like Emma or Snowing can only have external conflicts.  I'm not sure it would be any better if Emma and Hook were separated again... and the closure would be them reuniting?  I think they figured that they had just done that in 5B.  The "closure" for Emma is that she doesn't die and has a renewed appreciation for life.  That's the reason they're giving for Emma asking Hook to move in.  This death scare is supposed to be a driving factor for her character.  Who isn't depressed and angsty right now?

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Who isn't depressed and angsty right now?

The Evil Queen, who also happens to be Regina. And if Robin comes back, then the other Regina gets everything too. So once again the Evil Queen wins. 

[KingOfHearts]

Reasons why I really don't like S6 so far:

* The Evil Queen is tedious and adds nothing to the plot.
* Rumpbelle is a disgusting mess that refuses to die.
* Golden Queen is something nobody wanted and it's super gross.
* Emma's Savior problems are contrived and completely undermine her development.
* The writers rely too heavily on secrets and lies to promote cheap angst.
* The Land of Untold Stories was underdeveloped and cut off from the main plot too quickly.
* Aladdin and Jasmine were shoehorned in and have proved themselves very insipid against their Disney counterparts.
* The main characters have nothing to do. They have no active goal they can feasibly accomplish. They are simply reacting to whatever threat comes their way or random idea that pops into their heads.
* Zelena has been sidelined into a babysitting sister-soundboard.
* There is no clear theme or core structure. We've bounced around between LoUS, The Evil Queen, Aladdin/Savior business, and Rumple. As much as I've complained about it in the past, I prefer the half-season formula to this. At least there was some coherency to the overall story. Now the writers are just throwing random crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. (And if it doesn't stick, they just throw it again.) 
* It's the Rumple Show. It's not that he's dominating the screentime or that we're getting his POV too much. But his actions are the only ones that matter. He's the only true threat that poses serious conflict. He's involved in everything that's been happening and it all revolves around him.
* The "slice of life" aspect has been botched considerably. It's been inconsistent and has done little to further character development. Snow's teaching job, for example. It makes me want to stick with the mindless fantasy adventures.
* The biggest problem is that the plots (if you would even call them that) are uninteresting. I don't care about Emma's impending death fake-out, Regina and the Evil Queen superficially coming to terms with one another, Jasmine's disappearing kingdom, or Rumple's quest for control over Damien. It's all just boring, and that's this season's worst sin. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's the Rumple Show. It's not that he's dominating the screentime or that we're getting his POV too much. But his actions are the only ones that matter. He's the only true threat that poses serious conflict. He's involved in everything that's been happening and it all revolves around him.

At the same time, what is he actually doing? Right now, the only thing he seems to care about is controlling Belle and their unborn child. He's not trying to take over the town, gain more power, destroy an enemy, etc. He's not doing anything that threatens the town. He hasn't even threatened Hook, in spite of Hook giving Belle refuge. Belle has been back and forth with him so many times that the others could be forgiven for not being too worked up about helping her stay away from him -- why bother putting yourself at risk when she'll only go back to him again the first time he makes a sad face or does something moderately almost good (that only benefits her)?

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

At the same time, what is he actually doing? Right now, the only thing he seems to care about is controlling Belle and their unborn child. He's not trying to take over the town, gain more power, destroy an enemy, etc. He's not doing anything that threatens the town. He hasn't even threatened Hook, in spite of Hook giving Belle refuge. Belle has been back and forth with him so many times that the others could be forgiven for not being too worked up about helping her stay away from him -- why bother putting yourself at risk when she'll only go back to him again the first time he makes a sad face or does something moderately almost good (that only benefits her)?

Rumple hasn't done a lot of actions, other than sealing Belle with magic or giving the Evil Queen magical objects. But, at the end of the day, he has the most power and influence. He has everyone, and especially the Evil Queen, under his thumb. While he hasn't done anything super dangerous to the town, he could easily and that's where his character has the most control. We as the audience are always on our toes, wondering what he'll do, because he's unstoppable with no leash. Most of the drama is centered around him. He's now directly tied to the EQ Split plot because of the romance, and he's also in possession of the Destiny Shears, which connects him to the Savior plot. He's got his hands in everything, whether he takes advantage of that frequently or not.

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

He's got his hands in everything, whether he takes advantage of that frequently or not.

The problem is, until he actually does anything with his power and all those ties, we don't have a plot. We have lots of potential plots with nothing actually happening. Just like the Evil Queen hasn't really done anything but mess with the Charmings. She made the one stab at darkening Regina, but has left her alone since then, not trying to darken her or usurp her. Why is she hanging out in Zelena's hovel instead of taking over Regina's mansion? She's made the one attempt to Darth Vader Henry, but will she give up after the first failure?

Basically, we have two villains who have a lot of potential to do damage, who are only doing minor, very personal things that have no big-picture impact and are posing no threat to anyone but their particular personal enemies.

[Free]

On 11/15/2016 at 7:40 PM, Camera One said:

I was thinking about where we're normally at, eight episodes into an arc.

Season 2: "Into The Deep"... David contacts Mary Margaret in the fire room.  One more episode before Snow and Emma come home.

3A: "Think Lovely Thoughts"... Peter Pan was just about to follow-through on his big plan, and we finally learned his backstory.  One more episode left in Neverland.

3B: "A Curious Thing"... we found out the origins of the latest Curse.  The next episode would be the birth of the baby and Zelena would be able to bring her plan to fruition.

4A: "Smash The Mirror"... we had already gotten The Snow Queen's origin story the episode before, and we find out how she got to the World Without Magic and how Elsa got into the urn.  We see the ramifications of Shattered Sight while it is set off at the end of this episode.

4B: "Lily"... road trip from our favorite duo... ok, getting off track here.  The whole Lily being Maleficent's daughter arc reaches a climax as Emma fights Adult Lily.  The big "surprise" for Robin with Zelena being Marian and Zelena being preggers.

5A: "Birth"... Merlin's plan is about to come to fruition, but the plan is ruined.  Hook is mortally wounded, and he becomes The Dark One.

5B: "Sisters"...  Zelena and Regina reconciles for the first time, and there's a chance that Zelena's relationship with Hades might be their way out.  One more episode left in the Underworld.

6A: "I'll Be Your Mirror"... The Evil Queen causes problems but everything is reset by the end of the episode.  Meanwhile, Henry has relationship problems, Snow and Charming eat breakfast and sleep, Emma and Regina look at a bunch of mirrors and big cliffhanger, Rumple is weely weely mad at Zelena.  Who the hell knows what stunt The Evil Queen will pull next week because she has no long-term goals, and they are no closer to defeating her.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to get A&E to do a full-season arc... hopefully, they realize that it's best to let them play with their shiny toys for half a season and then get some new toys in the second half.

Even the shiny toys there were problematic, it's what happens when you're running on empty.

What do we get:  Rumple/EQ, Henry/Violet, Emma's impending "death", Rumple's son's daddy issues, Rumbelle melodrama, split Reginas that end up doing nothing, etc.

Truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, Free said:

Truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I think the worst part is that it doesn't have to be this way. They have build enough during 5 seasons that the show doesn't have to be this way in season 6. They wanted to tell untold stories? That's fine. The town is filled with those, with characters that have been part of the show's mythos since the start. Not Lily though because I hate her ass and that story. 

They wanted Rumbelle to have a baby? Okay, sure, babies happen to married couples, even the ones that don't get along and are on the brink of divorce. But is baby RB the first child born to a Dark One? What are the consequences of that? Does it multiply the darkness like when Emma decided to save Hook's life and  turn him into a Dark One? But there's a problem, because while Rumple, Hook and Emma had a tether with the dagger and the top half of Excalibur, with this baby, there's nothing. Is that going to be a problem? Are we going into the whole "evil born, it's made?" but there are exception to the rule like Cruella and maybe this baby?

Maybe people in the town are worried about what it means for them and the ramifications of the Dark One having a child? 

They have a whole story that might actually fit within their half-assed Dark One mythology, but they're not doing anything about it. I'd think that it's something that Belle should have been worried about this season because when she and Rumple hit the mat, she thought he was regular, non dark magical Rumple, not the darkest of Dark Ones with everyone's powers combined whatever in the fuck that means because this show refuses to explain anything at all.

Rumple and Belle can still hate each others' guts and Belle can still wanna take her kid and run away from him. Those feelings don't have to change, but there's a huge story there with this baby and the writers as usual will run out of time.

They had Emma and Hook move in together? Okay, what does that mean for both characters? Emma lived in the back of the bug with Neal for however long they were together, and she never brought Walsh home to spend the night (unless I'm misremembering this). And Hook hasn't lived in an actual non floating home since his father left him on that ship. He thinks that Emma food of choice is gross. Henry gets pissy with Hook because of something the bad guy tells him. Is there more to that and that's why he was so easily swayed? Emma is having visions of doom, how do they deal with that as a couple since he just came back? If Emma dies, does Hook try and leave Storybrooke or does he stay?

Maybe Snowing can be proactive instead if spewing platitudes about hope ALL THE DAMN TIME! The Evil Queen is there, maybe they try to take the fight to her instead of waiting to see what her plans are?

Maybe they have actual scenes with their daughter who is supposed to die instead of having Snow say that she'll never stop fighting for her, but there's actually nothing on screen that's showing us that Snow is fighting or her daughter.

And what's going on in Regina's head? You'd think that's the character they'll be giving a bit more POV since we know what the EQ is all about. Robin died what? A week? 2 weeks ago? She goes home to an empty house, even Henry looks like he's spending a lot more time with Emma than he is with Regina. But they're just going to dump Robin on us because that's what they do.

How does everyone feel about this split now?

Let's not ask Snow because she's a moron, and thinks that Regina was awesome and did the right thing while the Dragon is having a WTF moment. I think between Snow and him, he knows best.

Does Snow go counter to everyone? Is she the voice of dissent when the time comes for EQ and Regina to merge again? This is the woman who thought it was a good idea to hoover the darkness out of her daughter before she was ever born and put it into someone else.

There are tons of stories, the writers just don't care enough to tell them because this show has become all about magic and that's more important than the characters.

Edited November 19, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And what's going on in Regina's head? You'd think that's the character they'll be giving a bit more POV since we know what the EQ is all about. Robin died what? A week? 2 weeks ago? She goes home to an empty house, even Henry looks like he's spending a lot more time with Emma than he is with Regina. But they're just going to dump Robin on us because that's what they do.

This is one of those rare occasions where we're not getting enough of Regina's POV. How does she feel with her other side gone? Does she regret her choice to split herself? How is she coping with being the weaker half? Is she still grieving over Robin? Like Emma, she's just been standing around moping over her dilemma. She finally did something in 6x08 with the Mirror, but that took eight episodes. The rest of the time she let the Evil Queen run around killing and cursing people, not to mention luring her sister to the dark side. Why did Regina drop Zelena like a sack of potatoes after being so adamant about getting her on the side of the angels in 5B? Her character just makes no sense this season.

Edited November 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I'm surprised (though not really) at how badly they've messed up and completely missed all the potential of the split Regina plot. You can tell they didn't really do any brainstorming about what it might mean and how it would work. For one thing, it would have been more fun if there had been a more obvious difference in Regina, if we were getting someone more like the wide-eyed girl of "The Stable Boy" rather than the same old snarky Regina with no difference whatsoever. Just imagine the reactions of the other characters to her being super-nice when she usually would be snarky. They could have played that for laughs, but then it could have been shown to have a dark side when she wasn't able to stand up against a problem. She hasn't really been acting like you'd expect a "better" version of Regina would. Wouldn't a good Regina with no darkness in her really want to save Zelena from the Evil Queen, given that they'd just bonded as sisters?

They brought up the idea that even the "good" one could be a bad one with Jekyll and Hyde, but they seem to have forgotten that and haven't explored it at all. They also entirely dropped the Evil Queen's scheme to turn Regina dark. That had the potential for really exploring what darkness is and how someone becomes dark. I'm not keen on the idea that killing someone to save someone's life is the path to darkness (especially because they're so erratic about it -- it's awful when Snow, Emma, or good Regina do it but no one blinks when David does it to protect Regina or Hook does it to protect Belle), but I can see how it might become a slippery slope if it started becoming too easy to see killing as the easy and obvious solution. But being manipulated into one killing doesn't tell that story. If the Evil Queen was going to prove that good Regina was really just like her, she needed to keep at her.

The Evil Queen needed a clear-cut goal and motivation that makes some kind of sense with where Regina was at the point of the split. It's a bad indication for regular Regina if her dark side still wants to destroy Snow -- is that's what's been going on deep down inside her while Snow's been groveling for forgiveness and Regina hasn't said a word of apology? It would seem more likely, given what Regina actually said right before the split, if she went after Hook and Emma, since she resented them for Hook getting to live while Robin died. She'd also be going after Regina, wanting that life. I find it really hard to believe that the flamboyant Evil Queen is content to hang out in the farmhouse while her lesser half is in a mansion. Wouldn't getting Regina out of the mansion and herself into it have been step one? Wouldn't she go about trying to destroy Regina's relationships with the others by spilling secrets about what she's done to them in the past? (Graham!)

Meanwhile, the other characters are being idiots. The Evil Queen has beat them because she knows what Regina thinks and can be a step ahead of them. So why are they still letting Regina come up with plans? She could come up with the initial thing based on her insider knowledge, then turn it over to someone else for the actual planning part so that the Evil Queen won't get the jump on them. One of Hook's key character traits is being impulsive. Why not let the impulsive guy Regina badly misjudged in the past (since she thought for sure he'd kill her mother, based on the tests she gave him, and he ended up siding with Cora) come up with the plans so she's less likely to see them coming? Instead, it's like they let Regina do all the planning because she knows the Evil Queen best, and then they're shocked when the Evil Queen sees it coming because she knows Regina. Duh!

[Camera One]

Well, no one plans anything.  They just react to whatever the hell The Evil Queen or any other villain throws at them that very episode.  They should have asked Blue in Episode 1 about what could defeat The Evil Queen.  Why would she suddenly bring it up out of the blue in the sixth or seventh episode that there was a Sapling of True Love?  The Writers had the ridiculous idea to have characters like Snow churn their wheels trying to have a normal life while her most dangerous enemy was in town.  And now it's a moot point since she's half in a Sleeping Curse.  

Edited November 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Free]

15 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think the worst part is that it doesn't have to be this way. They have build enough during 5 seasons that the show doesn't have to be this way in season 6. They wanted to tell untold stories? That's fine. The town is filled with those, with characters that have been part of the show's mythos since the start. Not Lily though because I hate her ass and that story. 

They wanted Rumbelle to have a baby? Okay, sure, babies happen to married couples, even the ones that don't get along and are on the brink of divorce. But is baby RB the first child born to a Dark One? What are the consequences of that? Does it multiply the darkness like when Emma decided to save Hook's life and  turn him into a Dark One? But there's a problem, because while Rumple, Hook and Emma had a tether with the dagger and the top half of Excalibur, with this baby, there's nothing. Is that going to be a problem? Are we going into the whole "evil born, it's made?" but there are exception to the rule like Cruella and maybe this baby?

Maybe people in the town are worried about what it means for them and the ramifications of the Dark One having a child? 

They have a whole story that might actually fit within their half-assed Dark One mythology, but they're not doing anything about it. I'd think that it's something that Belle should have been worried about this season because when she and Rumple hit the mat, she thought he was regular, non dark magical Rumple, not the darkest of Dark Ones with everyone's powers combined whatever in the fuck that means because this show refuses to explain anything at all.

Rumple and Belle can still hate each others' guts and Belle can still wanna take her kid and run away from him. Those feelings don't have to change, but there's a huge story there with this baby and the writers as usual will run out of time.

They had Emma and Hook move in together? Okay, what does that mean for both characters? Emma lived in the back of the bug with Neal for however long they were together, and she never brought Walsh home to spend the night (unless I'm misremembering this). And Hook hasn't lived in an actual non floating home since his father left him on that ship. He thinks that Emma food of choice is gross. Henry gets pissy with Hook because of something the bad guy tells him. Is there more to that and that's why he was so easily swayed? Emma is having visions of doom, how do they deal with that as a couple since he just came back? If Emma dies, does Hook try and leave Storybrooke or does he stay?

Maybe Snowing can be proactive instead if spewing platitudes about hope ALL THE DAMN TIME! The Evil Queen is there, maybe they try to take the fight to her instead of waiting to see what her plans are?

Maybe they have actual scenes with their daughter who is supposed to die instead of having Snow say that she'll never stop fighting for her, but there's actually nothing on screen that's showing us that Snow is fighting or her daughter.

And what's going on in Regina's head? You'd think that's the character they'll be giving a bit more POV since we know what the EQ is all about. Robin died what? A week? 2 weeks ago? She goes home to an empty house, even Henry looks like he's spending a lot more time with Emma than he is with Regina. But they're just going to dump Robin on us because that's what they do.

How does everyone feel about this split now?

Let's not ask Snow because she's a moron, and thinks that Regina was awesome and did the right thing while the Dragon is having a WTF moment. I think between Snow and him, he knows best.

Does Snow go counter to everyone? Is she the voice of dissent when the time comes for EQ and Regina to merge again? This is the woman who thought it was a good idea to hoover the darkness out of her daughter before she was ever born and put it into someone else.

There are tons of stories, the writers just don't care enough to tell them because this show has become all about magic and that's more important than the characters.

Yup, the characters are just pawns just being moved around back and forth, with no planned out motivations whatsoever, so we get a poorly written/executed show devoid of any tension whatsoever.

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/19/2016 at 10:26 PM, Free said:

Yup, the characters are just pawns just being moved around back and forth, with no planned out motivations whatsoever, so we get a poorly written/executed show devoid of any tension whatsoever.

I think a big part of the problem in this season so far is that they didn't seem to really stop and think about what the Evil Queen, based on what we know of her past and of the darker sides of redeemed Regina's behavior, would really do if she were freed from Regina's conscience. For one thing, the fact that she hasn't even tried to move into the mansion may be the most difficult suspension of disbelief in this show that's involved bringing people back from the dead. They seem to have forgotten that it's as much her home as it is Regina's -- maybe more so, since it was the darker side of Regina that cast the curse to create it. It would have been second nature for her to just automatically go there when she went "home." The only reason for her not to have just shown up there right away was that she was hiding her presence in town, but once that cat was out of the bag, you'd think she'd have made herself right at home and told Regina "We've always lived here together. The only difference is that now I need more closet space." Dragging Zelena back there and insisting she was welcome could have been part of her seducing Zelena into cooperating with her. That kind of ongoing, forced confrontation would have allowed them to explore Regina's mindset, what she sees in having the Evil Queen playing out her worst aspects right in front of her.

Then you'd think the Evil Queen would have really set out to tear down Regina. She could have done a lot with the fact that she knows all the things Regina has done to the others that she's kept secret. She could have told Henry about her plan to kill his family so they could run away together, and that she wiped his memory when he was horrified by this. It was the "Regina" part of her that did that, since it was all about her wanting him to think the best of her, but while she's been playing the good mother, she's been dishonest with him. She could have told Emma about Graham and how keeping that secret even while Emma was apologizing about messing things up with Robin by bringing back Marian was the Regina side of things, since she wanted to look good. The Evil Queen part of her would have been more honest. Meanwhile, there would have been a lot of tempting Regina to darkness, and not just by giving her an opportunity to do something drastic in the name of heroics. She'd have tempted her with using her magic to make things better with the others after all the sabotage. If Regina couldn't take the roomies anymore, she would have had to either move into her vault or into Zelena's farmhouse, since after all the Evil Queen's revelations she couldn't exactly show up with her suitcase on Emma's doorstep (well, if the characters were allowed to react like human beings where Regina is concerned).

She also probably would have tried to take over the mayor's office, then would have been bored with how little power there actually is there. We never have learned what happened to the Black Knights during the curse. Wouldn't the Evil Queen have rounded them up? If they were true believers, she might have rallied them around herself, and if she had their hearts, she could have ordered them into submission. Or she could have made new ones.

She probably would have gone after Hook in some way, since regular Regina said she wanted to rip his throat out right before the split. It's hard to believe the Evil Queen hasn't tried to hurt him at all. Based on what was going on with Hyde, part of the "dark" side is passion, so even if the Evil Queen didn't love Robin like Regina did, the part of her that wanted to lash out and kill Hook for being alive when Robin was dead is surely in the Evil Queen, without the part of Regina that resisted the impulse because she knew it was wrong and irrational.

The Evil Queen is probably bored by the small town. We know Regina herself got bored with it pretty quickly, and it doesn't seem to be quite what she was expecting from the curse. She might have tried to find a way to get at least some aspects of the curse back, like at least the memory parts and the part that gave her so much control, but possibly in a new form. That would have given them a big-picture plot arc, with her trying to find a way to recast aspects of the curse and the others trying to stop her, with a ticking clock built in. It gets trickier since it's no longer the original curse she cast. Snow's curse created the current Storybrooke, and then Hook's curse is layered on top of it, but then it wasn't really Hook but Nimue using his body, and Nimue was absorbed into Rumple. So, undoing the Storybrooke part of the curse and creating a new kingdom for her to rule with subjects who don't know their true identities would require untangling a bunch of stuff and getting Rumple's cooperation. He might do it if Belle got turned into a dutiful, loving wife who accepted him as he is, but he'd also want to keep his power, and having a powerful Dark One around wouldn't be high on her wish list.

Just with all this alone, we've got a plot, without any of the Savior doom, Aladdin and Jasmine, maybe even the Untold Stories other than Jekyll and Hyde. It just takes digging into the character and the existing conflicts.

[KingOfHearts]

The characters were so quick to assume the Evil Queen was pure darkness and a totally separate entity from Regina. She's definitely not the same tyrant from before, since her behavior has been dramatically different in several ways. Like Regina, she has evolved and has become more subdued. (Not in her scenery chewing, but in her actions.) The heroes haven't done their research. They haven't a clue what they're really dealing with. The Evil Queen is not the "dark side" of Regina, but rather the impulsive element. She's just herself without a leash. The darkness is present on both sides of the coin, just handled in different ways. (But still carried out in some fashion.)

Quote

Just with all this alone, we've got a plot, without any of the Savior doom, Aladdin and Jasmine, maybe even the Untold Stories other than Jekyll and Hyde. It just takes digging into the character and the existing conflicts.

I agree. The Evil Queen could have brought plenty of plot with her. If we were really dealing with EQ of the past, there would be real tension. But alas, she's only a caricature. I can't believe A&E said she's "worse" now. Hate to break to them, but this is only Edgy Queen.

Edited November 24, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I can't believe A&E said she's "worse" now. Hate to break to them, but this is only Edgy Queen.

It's really quite ridiculous.  What can be "worse" than massacring villages?  

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

It's really quite ridiculous.  What can be "worse" than massacring villages?  

Making out with Rumple, apparently.

[Shanna Marie]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I can't believe A&E said she's "worse" now. Hate to break to them, but this is only Edgy Queen.

She's not even as bad as Mayor Mills or even late season 2 Regina, who would have been perfectly happy with everyone but Henry dying. She's practically cuddly compared to Enchanted Forest Queen Regina.

The fact that they're even less interested in exploring what's going on with the good side is odd, given the issues they raised with Jekyll and Hyde. They aren't getting into the good/bad conundrum or what personality traits count as "dark." Plus there's the fact that in this version of the story, Jekyll didn't split off Hyde to get rid of his bad side (like Regina did), but rather to create someone stronger and more forceful who could get him what he wanted. It was the exact same potion. I guess that explains why there's no discernible difference in Regina, since Jekyll seemed more or less the same without Hyde, but then that raises all kinds of questions about which parts of Regina really are in the Evil Queen. What do those parts of her want? And we've now officially put far more thought into it than the writers seem to have.

[Free]

On 11/23/2016 at 9:57 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Making out with Rumple, apparently.

In a way, that is worse in terms of writing, but not the way they intended.

On 11/23/2016 at 9:31 PM, KingOfHearts said:

The characters were so quick to assume the Evil Queen was pure darkness and a totally separate entity from Regina. She's definitely not the same tyrant from before, since her behavior has been dramatically different in several ways. Like Regina, she has evolved and has become more subdued. (Not in her scenery chewing, but in her actions.) The heroes haven't done their research. They haven't a clue what they're really dealing with. The Evil Queen is not the "dark side" of Regina, but rather the impulsive element. She's just herself without a leash. The darkness is present on both sides of the coin, just handled in different ways. (But still carried out in some fashion.)

I agree. The Evil Queen could have brought plenty of plot with her. If we were really dealing with EQ of the past, there would be real tension. But alas, she's only a caricature. I can't believe A&E said she's "worse" now. Hate to break to them, but this is only Edgy Queen.

It doesn't help that her character went from massacring villages to making out with Rumple and making pathetic idle threats that no one can take seriously.

[KingOfHearts]

The show needs a conflict that affects most of if not all of the ensemble of characters. In 3A, pretty much everyone cared about Henry and had some reason for going to Neverland. Every since then, there really hasn't been a single plot that unified everyone. S4 separated the characters in both arcs. A lot of them wanted to save Emma in 5A, but Robin was only there for Regina and Zelena was forced into it. It got really awkward in 5B when it made no sense for Henry, Robin, Regina and both Snowings to go to the Underworld. 6A has been very splintered and everyone seems to be on their own track. Some characters have almost zero motivations at all.

It's not that I want a Nevengers repeat, but in general, we need more character motivations and straight forward overarching plots. The writing seems to be better when the main goal is simpler. (e.g. #SaveHenry, #SaveEmma) The more complicated arcs with multiple threads tend to be the worst. (2B, 4B, 6A.) It's an ensemble cast show and I enjoy it the most when the characters get balanced involvement. They shouldn't be sent off on their own sidetracking as frequently as they are. They should be able to touch on whatever major thing is going on for believable reasons. There are exceptions it isn't logical for a character to get much focus in a certain arc, but I don't like the "rotating" formula where certain characters are brought to the forefront and others are placed on the backburner. 

[Camera One]

I agree, though A&E would probably argue that most of those do have a big conflict that affect most or all of the ensemble.  Once they got to the Underworld, it was basically all of them, including Rumple, versus Hades.  In general, it is usually Rumple who has his separate subplot, especially since he's sometimes on the other side of the conflict, like in 4B.  6A is a mess, but at the core, it's pretty much everyone (except Rumple, again) against The Evil Queen (and Zelena is involved as the Evil Queen's ally).  It's disjointed because it's a piecemeal affair where the Evil Queen targets one character per episode and the rest tries to have a normal life or deal with something else.  Even when characters *should* be motivated, the Writers refuse to do anything with it (eg. Snowing doing nothing in the Dark Emma arc after their requisite centrics).  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

6A is a mess, but at the core, it's pretty much everyone (except Rumple, again) against The Evil Queen (and Zelena is involved as the Evil Queen's ally). 

The motivation to stop her has been incredibly inconsistent, though. Sometimes the characters would rather go about their lives or dwelling on their personal issues, and other times this urgency to defeat her comes out of nowhere. Most of the characters have been sidetracked by other things. (Helping Aladdin/Jasmine, worrying about imminent death, running in with LoUS folks, etc.) Regina is the only one really dead set on defeating her, and she hasn't done much due to timidity and a lack of options.

Defeating the Evil Queen should be the main plot that drives everyone, but it hasn't been consistent enough. She's only dangerous when she happens to be relevant to an episode's contained plot. Even then, she's usually more of an inconvenience or a fly to be swatted away.

Edited November 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

The motivation to stop her has been incredibly inconsistent, though.

For sure.   It's ridiculous how they seem to forget about her when they're not sharing an arc with The Evil Queen that episode.  It's not as bad, but there was also a complete sense of urgency and danger in Underbrooke when they go out for breakfast and shopping.  5A had a lot of urgency in the flashback because they made it seem like Dark Emma was about to snap every episode.  However, in present-day, the urgency wasn't there.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Free]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

For sure.   It's ridiculous how they seem to forget about her when they're not sharing an arc with The Evil Queen that episode.  It's not as bad, but there was also a complete sense of urgency and danger in Underbrooke when they go out for breakfast and shopping.  5A had a lot of urgency in the flashback because they made it seem like Dark Emma was about to snap every episode.  However, in present-day, the urgency wasn't there.

For starters, it didn't help that most of Dark Swan was spent on her being emo, sitting around making dreamcatchers and it's especially worse knowing what the actual endgame of the arc is about.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 It's not as bad, but there was also a complete sense of urgency and danger in Underbrooke when they go out for breakfast and shopping.

The characters were so unsettled by the morbid creepiness of Underbrooke that they were at least motivated to leave. They were constantly reminded of their missions, much like in Neverland. Because of that, the tone and urgency was pretty consistent. Ruby Slippers was the only episode that abruptly changed the focus. (Not nearly as badly as The Bear King or Lily, though.) In retrospect, 5B wasn't great but it was easy to follow and had straight forward plot structure. It brought back some S1 and 3A vibes, especially in its earlier section.

Quote

However, in present-day, the urgency wasn't there.

5A did not need Storybrooke until Birth. That aspect consisted mainly of the heroes running around accomplishing nothing. (Like they normally do.) 4A is almost as bad as 4B if you remove the Frozen story. The SB side of things is almost always messy and boring. The fact 6A mostly takes places in it does not help the current state of affairs. (We haven't gotten a single LoUS flashback. That's disappointing...)

Quote

 It's ridiculous how they seem to forget about her when they're not sharing an arc with The Evil Queen that episode. 

The Evil Queen isn't even motivated. She doesn't know what she wants. She wanted to teach Regina she needed her, then that did nothing. She tried creating dissension between the heroes, and that was fruitless. She finally got her hands on Snow's heart, she cursed it, and now she doesn't seem to care any more. After that she wanted Rumple, but now that he wants her to kill Zelena, she's not sure about that any more. Villains without strong motivations just don't work. Zelena tends to follow the wind too, but being a gray character, she doesn't need big schemes. She needs goals like all characters, but she can afford to do whatever she wants or change her mind. That's just fundamentally who she is.

Rumple is motivated to get his son, but we have no idea how he plans to accomplish it. We don't know what exactly he's going to do with the Destiny Shears. Is he going to try to win back Belle? Does he want a future with the Evil Queen instead? His executions are so vague and they're always so contrived when they actually happen. He tends to be wishywashy too. He's not an easy character to follow. It's not because he's mysterious or complex (like he used to be), but because the writers like to choose his actions last minute. We normally can't understand his objectives until the final one or two episodes the arc. They usually random magic shenanigans that don't make sense.

Examples:
* 4A. He was trying to use the Hat/Dagger tethering with Hook's heart. 
* 4B. He made Isaac use his omnipotent Author pen to create a world where villains are heroes.
* 5A. He used some random potion on Excalibur to use it as a conduit for siphoning the power of all the Dark Ones into Dagger.
* 5B. He tried using the Olympian Crystal to bottle all of Storybrooke's magic so he could try to wake Belle.

Yeah, Rumple's plans are super contrived and don't follow any logic. He can just create the next arc's conflict with unexplained magical power. That seems to be his main job, other than abusing Belle.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Daisy]

I'm almost done my re-watch (i'm going to stop after the Dark Swan storyline, I don't want to do Underbrooke Again)  and i just realised, truly. how many little things bugged me. and I'll need to sit down and re-gather my thoughts. but even in a rewatch I'm not open to Captain Swan (at all - I really wish she had someone from the Land Without Magic to be some kind of tether to normalcy. Because everything in her life is magical tied).

But here's a question

Where the hell is Lilly?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Where the hell is Lilly?

She's at the other restaurant in town - Jefferson's Tea House. That's where all the offscreen characters go to chew the fat and complain about the poor town management.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She's waiting in line for the next "Emma's Best Friend" episode.

[KingOfHearts]

53 minutes ago, Camera One said:

She's waiting in line for the next "Emma's Best Friend" episode.

Whenever Swan Queen is on the rocks and Regina needs a temporary replacement.

[Camera One]

It all depends if Emma's other bestie August is available.

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It all depends if Emma's other bestie August is available.

 

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

She's at the other restaurant in town - Jefferson's Tea House. That's where all the offscreen characters go to chew the fat and complain about the poor town management.

 

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

She's waiting in line for the next "Emma's Best Friend" episode.

 

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Whenever Swan Queen is on the rocks and Regina needs a temporary replacement.

(laugh) y'all are awesome. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/26/2016 at 5:03 PM, Camera One said:

6A is a mess, but at the core, it's pretty much everyone (except Rumple, again) against The Evil Queen (and Zelena is involved as the Evil Queen's ally).

But have they really gone up against the Evil Queen other than stopping her from using the evil water? They were focused on Hyde, on helping Cinderella, on stopping Jekyll/Hyde, on tracking down Aladdin, on escaping Nemo. They didn't really treat the Evil Queen like an actual threat until she kidnapped Snow and made her threats. Otherwise, they've all been focused on other things. Even now, after two episodes with the Evil Queen as the antagonist, they're off confronting Rumple, aside from Regina's one confrontation.

Not that you can blame them because she's been a lousy villain. Constantly changing tactics is smart when it's not working, but she's acting like she's got a bad case of ADD. First, she was going to darken Regina to prove that her good side wasn't that good. She managed to sow some seeds and instill some doubts, and then she skipped to another tactic entirely, forgetting about Regina and trying to make Emma feel useless. Then she was cozying up to Hyde, but I'm not sure what her plan was there, other than keeping Emma and company from getting info from him. She tried to drive a wedge between Henry and Hook and then forgot about that. There wasn't much reason to do much of anything to fight a villain who wasn't doing much of anything and who didn't pose a real threat, as far as they could tell.

So it really hasn't been everyone against the Evil Queen or even everyone against the Axis of Evil/Wicked. It's been everyone doing their own thing -- Hook protecting Belle, then dealing with Liam. Emma helping Cinderella and working on the Savior thing. Snow teaching school and hanging out with Jasmine. Regina's really been the only one dealing with the Evil Queen, and there she's mostly been reactive rather than taking any kind of positive action.

[KingOfHearts]

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Not that you can blame them because she's been a lousy villain. Constantly changing tactics is smart when it's not working, but she's acting like she's got a bad case of ADD.

Regina explained it pretty well when she said the Evil Queen had a hole in her heart she couldn't fill. In short, the Evil Queen doesn't know what to do with herself. She has no idea what she wants. That's consistent with how Regina has been written in past seasons. She gets bored of one thing and moves on to the next, never being satisfied. I don't think she took Snow's heart because she had a deep need for revenge, but rather, she thought, "What the heck? It's something I've always wanted to do, and my other plans weren't working." 

This reminds me of Lewis Carroll attempting to explain the difference between the Queen of Hearts and The Red Queen, who are often mistaken to be the same person. The Queen of Hearts was described as, "the embodiment of ungovernable passion" and "a blind and aimless Fury". That explains the Evil Queen to me. She's passion without a direction, lustful desire without a nest. That has always been present in Regina.

Huh. Maybe Maleficent was right about that hole in her heart she could never fill after all.

Edited November 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

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So it really hasn't been everyone against the Evil Queen or even everyone against the Axis of Evil/Wicked. It's been everyone doing their own thing -- Hook protecting Belle, then dealing with Liam. Emma helping Cinderella and working on the Savior thing. Snow teaching school and hanging out with Jasmine. Regina's really been the only one dealing with the Evil Queen, and there she's mostly been reactive rather than taking any kind of positive action.

It's been off tangent subplots.

[Dianthus]

It kinda makes sense to me that Regina should be the one to deal with the EQ. It's her, after all, and her mess to clean up. Problem is she's doing such a piss poor job of it so the writers can keep spinning their wheels until the finale or whatever. They do more spinning than Rumple.