A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

 

Come to think of it, I wonder if 3x18 wasn't a tacit acknowledgment that maybe they killed Cora too soon/in the wrong way, because Regina needed to confront and fight her mother as a crucial part of her redemption arc. Hence we got the uber contrived trip into Afterlifeville.

 

I find it funny that Regina ended up saving Snow from her mother in 3x18. I agree that they should have done it that way in 2B. Snow might not have been in any real imminent danger, but Regina thought she was. It's one of Regina's few selfless acts. It's odd they didn't do it that way in The Miller's Daughter, because they hinted it heavily in the previous episode. (Regina questioning Cora's motives, having the Stable Boy flashback, etc.)

 

I'm pretty bias, though - I really miss Cora. She was my favorite villain on the show. It's too bad they didn't just banish her into another realm so she could come back later, or at least wait until the S2 finale to kill her.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That was the only nice thing about that episode.  The rest of it was to explain Cora and Zelena's motivations and to show the road to evil is paved by bratty princesses who tell truths that destroy lives.

 

In hindsight, that episode was a lot less important than it turned out to be.  Before the Season 3 finale, I actually thought we would get to see time travel back to the time of Eva and Leopold.  

 

Now if they had just paused there with Regina's continuing path to redemption, I would have been overall quite happy with her arc in Season 3.  But no, the writers had to ruin that in the next two episodes.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Now if they had just paused there with Regina's continuing path to redemption, I would have been overall quite happy with her arc in Season 3.  But no, the writers had to ruin that in the next two episodes.

 

If Regina had just said, "I'm sorry for everything I've done to you, Snow," the entire season would have been worth it.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm rewatching 3B with a friend who's catching up after being away... just watched "Quiet Minds".  The Zelena scenes are so tedious and boring, especially her long drawn-out monologuing.  It has practically no rewatch value.  The Snow/Zelena scenes felt like even more of a waste of time the second time around.  I thought the Peter Pan monologuing was also boring on rewatch, but Zelena had even more.  In that respect, rewatching S3 has felt a little like a chore but in a different way from S2.  S2 was just plain bad, but S3 had stretches within episodes which are plain boring.  Forget Evil vs Wicked.  Which is worse - Bad or Boring?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

At least Pan for me was pretty hilarious in the way the actor delivered his lines.  Zelena just sneered a lot and considering everything was pretty ineffective.  She was all bark and no bite, although she did knock Regina on her ass a couple of times. 

[KAOS Agent]

The only decent Zelena scene in my mind was the Regina/Zelena snark off at Regina's house and even then it had Zelena giving a monologue about the MacGuffin of the week was which in that case was the Cora seance.

 

Pan didn't feel the need to run around and give everyone a bunch of clues that would lead them to discover what he was planning. He just liked to pop up and mess with their heads. I really liked that about Pan. It wasn't about him feeling important or whatever Zelena was trying to do, it was just him having fun playing with his new toys.

[KingOfHearts]

The only Zelena monologuing scene I truly found enjoyable was when she made her "official" first appearance in Granny's Diner immediately after Neal's funeral. All her line deliveries and facial expressions were priceless. Heck, I thought she did better there than how Regina did in the scene it was trying to parallel. (Snow and Charming's wedding in the pilot)

 

Zelena was more entertaining to watch the first time during 3B because we didn't know her motives. Now that we do, she's less intimidating and more annoying.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

After we found out her backstory, when Zelena talks, all I hear is "Me me me me me me me me me me me me".  And this is coming from three seasons of watching her sister.

 

I think the Granny's Diner scene is definitely one of the better ones.  I found her scenes with Rumple particularly unbearably boring the second time around. 

 

With Peter Pan, I was impressed the first time around, though I was over him by the midway point.  I found in "Going Home", his scene with Rumple after re-entering his own body really boring and lacking in impact, especially the second time around.  Maybe because seeing him as Henry really let the air out of his character (plus he wasn't at all convincing as Henry).

 

So it's interesting that the 2 villains they had, even though I didn't have a problem with them at the beginning, and I still think they were well cast, neither of them would have been welcomed for more than half a season (and not even for the full half of their respective seasons).

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

So it's interesting that the 2 villains they had, even though I didn't have a problem with them at the beginning, and I still think they were well cast, neither of them would have been welcomed for more than half a season (and not even for the full half of their respective seasons).

For me, it's because at the end of the day, all either of them did was yap. Cora didn't spend infinite episodes running her mouth. She just got on with being evil, actually murdered people (Eva, Daniel, Johanna), actually did real evil--generally was actually allowed to seem threatening. In the final analysis, neither Pan nor Zelena came off half as threatening as Cora because for all their yapping, they did no lasting (and even very little temporary) damage.

 

I would also say that at the end of the day, Cora actually seemed smarter than Pan and Zelena, too. We've all said before that if either Pan or Zelena had an eighth of a brain, they would've beaten our protagonists handily (Zelena really could have cast her spell in secrecy; Pan could've just used his "going to freeze everyone" trick and murdered them all the moment they set foot in Neverland). Whereas Cora never really had that going on. She wasn't so ridiculously overpowered that she had to be made super dumb to give the heroes a fighting chance. She seemed to be on more of a level playing field, used her brain, saw the obstacles in front of her, and came up with decent plans to get around them.

 

And this is where I think the contrived "they're all just related" stuff actually hurt Zelena and Pan. Cora seemed dangerous in part because she was so influential on Regina and had a history with Snow; she was a compelling villain because she was actually, genuinely connected to the heroes. The writers kind of tried to back-engineer that same kind of think with Pan and Zelena both, but it fell totally flat and just seemed like a parody by the end, because for all that the writers tried to push the family connection, it didn't at all create that same level of connection between Pan/Rumpel and Zelena/Regina. A long-lost sister might as well be a stranger, you know? (And this is where I think holding off on the Papa Pan reveal until almost the end of 3A hurt the show. imo, it would have been better to reveal it early on and build on it.)

Edited July 4, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

The fact villains are continually killed off after they're introduced hurts their weight considerably. Who cares about a villain when you know they're going to die 9 episodes later? It's a rut the show is quickly putting itself in, and it's not good for the show's future. They killed off Pan, Zelena, Cora and Maleficent, redeemed Regina, and leashed Rumple with Belle. It's like they're trying to fall into a "villain of the week" pattern. This show's premise is too deep for that, in my opinion.

 

I'd rather resurrect Cora via a giant contrivance than get another new toy for the writers.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I actually hated Cora for the opposite reason.  She was way too full of herself and cruel for me to "enjoy" her villainy.  If you kill a village, you're pretty much dead to me and I don't derive pleasure from watching a psychopath murder innocent people.  Cora was just as bad as the others for me since the protagonists never did anything clever to counter Cora (except for the one "win" - when Cora was dumbstruck not being able to take Emma's heart - that I did enjoy).  I found the overarching supremacy of the villain too frustrating to watch and it only became worse the second time around.  So I actually felt myself getting angry watching Cora do all these things unopposed, whereas I felt bored watching Pan and Zelena.  For me, both are just as bad and that's why to me, S2 and S3 are both low in quality overall.  Where this show gets me are the little moments.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

For me, it's because at the end of the day, all either of them did was yap. Cora didn't spend infinite episodes running her mouth. She just got on with being evil, actually murdered people (Eva, Daniel, Johanna), actually did real evil--generally was actually allowed to seem threatening. In the final analysis, neither Pan nor Zelena came off half as threatening as Cora because for all their yapping, they did no lasting (and even very little temporary) damage.

This. For my money, the actors did a great job with their characters. But the way Pan and Zelena were written it was so boooooriiiiing. I was bored with them as villains from the get go. Yes, the performance themselves were fun, but both were clearly written as all talk and no game. All Pan and Zelena did was talk smack. Everyone was in more danger of dying from boredom from listening to their endless monologuing than they were of actually being killed by Pan or Zelena. And actually, their only victims died (almost in Henry's case) of self-inflicted wounds! Zelena and Pan's superpower was convincing the most weak-minded idiots in the group to off themselves.

 

Henry reached right into his own chest and killed himself. He's not dead because contrary to the efforts of natural selection, his mothers saved him. (Srsly, this kid is so stupid Regina had to put a spell on him so he couldn't rip out his own heart again. Regina says it's so others can't do it, but let's be real, she's got to be thinking "Even Ms. Swan and the Two Idiots aren't this dumb. Must take after the sperm donor."  And she'd be right. Because as much as Zelena likes to claim that she killed Nealfire, well, sorry, Zels. Nealfire got himself killed. Brain trust that this guy is, he knowingly did exactly what Zelena wanted to the tune of "To Hell with the costs!" Idiot, here's your Darwin Award. Pffft, Good riddance.

 

At least Cora actually killed people. She personally created her own zombie army. That's proper villainy right there. I'm not saying "yay! mass-murder", but if you're writing a fairytale villain you gotta back up their threats with actual actions. Convincing morons to kill themselves doesn't count ('cause I think that's just doing the local gene pool a favor helping them cull the stupid out ).

 

ETA: TBH, I think they should've never gone down "redeem" Regina route. I really loved to hate her in Season 1. She was a superb villain. It was delicious and I loved it. And I think Emma breaking the curse at the end of season 1 should've just sent Regina right around the bend to batshit crazy villainy.

 

And I don't think it would've been impossible to sustain her as the primary villain. I've seen shows where it's been done. Ya, they gotta tweak the antagonistic relationship between her and the heroes as the seasons progress, come up with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of situations, but never actually make her good. I think the biggest mistake these writers made is trying to fully reform her. Now it's just a big effing mess of a character and a stupid mess of a show.

Edited July 4, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

ETA: TBH, I think they should've never gone down "redeem" Regina route.

I think it was a mistake for the show to jump immediately into redeeming ("redeeming") both Rumpel and Regina as soon as the curse ended. You didn't even have to make one of them the series' ultimate Big Bad--though I agree that S1 Regina would have made for a delicious Perma-Foe--you could have kept them both pretty evil but forced the Charmings to juggle alliances with both of them when they had to, basically switching the Big Bad of the half-season in between Regina and Rumpel as necessary. You could have gotten some mileage out of that as a way for both Regina and Rumpel to take tiny baby steps toward redemption, not just throwing them in the deep end of Lake Nostos and saying "Look! All their goodness is suddenly back with them!", paving the way for them to really have a change of heart (literally, in Regina's case! I'll be here all week) later down the line. Or you could have kept what S1 had set up so well, the Charmings vs. Regina, but with Rumpel juuuust enough on the Charmings' side--while now more overtly an antagonist they sometimes had to fight--that Regina couldn't smite them out of existence but they couldn't beat Regina (and the Charmings would never ally with Regina to take Rumpel out). That kind of setup, too, would/could have powered at least a season, and would imo have felt more organic while allowing for some slow character development of R&R.

 

But now, the show has left themselves no way out. At this point they just can't go back on Regina, they've invested way, way too much on her journey (I use that word loosely here) to do so; but because of Belle and his connection to Henry I don't think they can really go back on Rumpel, either, in a meaningful way, though admittedly his redemption road hasn't flashed by at the speed of light like Regina's has.

[Serena]

For me, it's because at the end of the day, all either of them did was yap. Cora didn't spend infinite episodes running her mouth. She just got on with being evil, actually murdered people (Eva, Daniel, Johanna), actually did real evil--generally was actually allowed to seem threatening. In the final analysis, neither Pan nor Zelena came off half as threatening as Cora because for all their yapping, they did no lasting (and even very little temporary) damage.

I know what you mean, but I have to laugh at the idea of offing Neal being "no lasting damage". A service to the community, maybe (then I remember that Neal offed himself, and the show then tried to blame Zelena for his dumbassery).

 

I think the problem - because you guys are right that having an half season villain hurts the show, all everyone talks about at the end of the season is 'what is the next villain going to be?!' - would be having a villain that's not so much more powerful than our heroes, but who's smart. They don't reveal themselves to the heroes via sweeping monologues laying out all their grudges, fears, abilities and childhood traumas. They stay hidden in the shadows and occasionally send some minions to wreak havoc. Their motivation should make sense (note: "I want to rule the world" makes sense; "my prize winning pet chihuahua was dissed by Snow's cousin" does not). They should not have more flashbacks than the main cast (one is all you get, A&E). Bonus points if the main cast has never met them before.

I actually think having a "threat of the week", sent by a bigger Big Bad who stays in the shadows, could be the way to go for a while. The threats should be easily defeated, so we don't need to waste time on their whining, and the screentime that's saved is given to the main cast.

 

Also, it is not necessary to have a flashback in every episode. I love Snowing, but if you're not gonna give me actually interesting Snowing (how they defeated Regina and took back the kingdom), then I'd prefer to have no flashback and see them in real time.

 

This. For my money, the actors did a great job with their characters. But the way Pan and Zelena were written it was so boooooriiiiing. I was bored with them as villains from the get go. Yes, the performance themselves were fun, but both were clearly written as all talk and no game. All Pan and Zelena did was talk smack. Everyone was in more danger of dying from boredom from listening to their endless monologuing than they were of actually being killed by Pan or Zelena. And actually, their only victims died (almost in Henry's case) of self-inflicted wounds! Zelena and Pan's superpower was convincing the most weak-minded idiots in the group to off themselves.

 

Henry reached right into his own chest and killed himself. He's not dead because contrary to the efforts of natural selection, his mothers saved him. (Srsly, this kid is so stupid Regina had to put a spell on him so he couldn't rip out his own heart again. Regina says it's so others can't do it, but let's be real, she's got to be thinking "Even Ms. Swan and the Two Idiots aren't this dumb. Must take after the sperm donor."  And she'd be right. Because as much as Zelena likes to claim that she killed Nealfire, well, sorry, Zels. Nealfire got himself killed. Brain trust that this guy is, he knowingly did exactly what Zelena wanted to the tune of "To Hell with the costs!" Idiot, here's your Darwin Award. Pffft, Good riddance.

We can go all the way and add Rumple to this! He only "died" because he stabbed himself to get Malcolm. Not as dumb as the other two, but still not a wound inflicted by the enemy. Really, is it something in that gene pool?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Serena

[KAOS Agent]

I think having the heroes go on the offense or some kind of quest while the villain tries to stop them rather than vice versa is much more effective on this show. In Season 1, Regina held all the cards and the power because only she knew the truth about what was going on. Emma was trying to fix things and would make some headway before Regina, who didn't need to be overly powerful, was able to build a defense or a distraction to cause Emma to lose ground. With Pan and Zelena, they each had goals and because the writers needed them to succeed until the very end, they were of necessity made more powerful than the heroes so that they could get close to winning. That is until they needed to lose and then we end up with the heroes suddenly able to overpower the supposedly unbeatable villain and the villains looking stupid for not just killing everyone right off the bat.

 

If you have the heroes trying to get something, you can set up a villain who has shields or traps or whatever. Things that can slow the heroes down and keep them away from wherever/whatever they are trying to get to without having to make the villain this unstoppable force. Much as I got annoyed with the Team Princess arc, the way they set that up with Emma/Snow trying to get home and Cora setting obstacles in their way & trying to steal back the compass as they competed for the one portal (I'll ignore the ease with which a second portal was created) worked better than Zelena and Pan's complete and utter dominance over the heroes. They also made it so that there was a reason why Cora didn't just kill Emma & Snow - She needed/wanted their knowledge. While Cora later became too powerful because it suited their story, at least in the Enchanted Forest, they did not set her up as completely unbeatable. And even her loss was more believable because they did not diminish her power in some way as Emma only really won at Lake Nostos because she surprised Cora. 

Edited July 4, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Mari]

I think the problem - because you guys are right that having an half season villain hurts the show, all everyone talks about at the end of the season is 'what is the next villain going to be?!' - would be having a villain that's not so much more powerful than our heroes, but who's smart. They don't reveal themselves to the heroes via sweeping monologues laying out all their grudges, fears, abilities and childhood traumas. They stay hidden in the shadows and occasionally send some minions to wreak havoc. Their motivation should make sense (note: "I want to rule the world" makes sense; "my prize winning pet chihuahua was dissed by Snow's cousin" does not). They should not have more flashbacks than the main cast (one is all you get, A&E). Bonus points if the main cast has never met them before.

I actually think having a "threat of the week", sent by a bigger Big Bad who stays in the shadows, could be the way to go for a while. The threats should be easily defeated, so we don't need to waste time on their whining, and the screentime that's saved is given to the main cast.

 

I have to agree with most of what you said, but I'd like to add that there's plenty of stuff in Rumple and Regina's backstory to bring in new villains with actual decent motives, that don't have to be related to them.  In fact, it could easily be more compelling, because we're not waiting for the predictable "Surprise!  It's Rumple's mother's cousin who used to be married to Zelena!   She really hates you all!"

 

And you're completely right--having that character smart enough to stay in the background, while distracting them with monsters of the week could be a really good story.

 

Regina and Rumple both mwhahahaed their way through a lot of people.  If they actually wanted to, they could easily bring in characters that are after revenge for something one of them did.  (My name is ___.  You killed my ___.  Prepare to die.)  You bring in the others by making the revenge character after something the rest of them would like to protect.  I hate to say it, but ... Henry.  Or Robin, or Roland.  Maybe they want to destroy the town, because, seriously?  This town doesn't think Regina/Rumple should be in shackles?  They're all evil--destroy them for being obvious Rumple/Regina minions. 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Mari

[Serena]

The problem is, if they bring in any villains with actual good motives for being against Regina/Rumple, they'd have to explain why our heroes give them a free pass. Like with Hook, he had an actual good reason to want revenge on Rumple, and Belle looked horrible for not acknowledging it. Now imagine some else comes in, they want revenge on Rumple/Regina because of an actual crime they should be punished for, and everyone is like "No, they've changed!! Which means they should be forgiven and you should get over the fact they killed your daughter. Otherwise you have a DARK HEART." That would make everyone look terrible.

[Mari]

True, it would mean they'd have to deal with some of Rumple and Regina's actual crimes, but they could find some medium ground by having the heroes acknowledge that, yes, Rumple and Regina did terrible things--but that kidnapping/killing  ____ isn't something they can ignore.   

 

Personally, I think the show would be better for actually having some of those conversations.

[Camera One]

I think it was a mistake for the show to jump immediately into redeeming ("redeeming") both Rumpel and Regina as soon as the curse ended.

 

I totally agree with this, and all that comes to a lack of planning.  It wasn't necessary for Rumple to get together with Belle romantically at least in 2A.  Just like it wasn't necessary for Regina to immediately try to stop using magic cold turkey in 2A (with her, it was worse since they did a complete 180 once Cora was in town, which was not convincing at all).

 

 

 

You could have kept them both pretty evil but forced the Charmings to juggle alliances with both of them when they had to

 

That is the only way to do it, I think.  And these switched alliances can't happen more than twice in a season, or it becomes tiresome.  

 

 

 

I actually think having a "threat of the week", sent by a bigger Big Bad who stays in the shadows, could be the way to go for a while.

 

The "Buffy" route was doing more threats of the week in the first half of the season, while introducing the embryo of the "Big Bad" of the season, and then the second half of the season was all abou the Big Bad.  At least for the first few seasons, I still felt like the heroes were having "wins", causing setbacks in the villain's goals, but also intelligently combating the threat.    

 

 

 

I think having the heroes go on the offense or some kind of quest while the villain tries to stop them rather than vice versa is much more effective on this show.

 

Well said.  On "Once", everything the good guys do is reactive with no strategic planning.  It's always - we've got to find Villain X.  Okay, then what?  

 

 

 

Also, it is not necessary to have a flashback in every episode.

 

I'm torn about this one.  On the one hand, I agree that repetitive flashbacks showing every millisecond between Snow and Regina confronted each other while she was on the run was tiresome.  But on the other hand, I often enjoy the flashbacks more than the actual present-day story where the good guys act stupid and the bad guys gloat.  If there were no flashbacks, they writers need to use the time well, writing in character struggles, developments and purposeful conversations.  I suppose I'm just not sure they have the ability to do that.  I mean, if they were to cut out the C-plot in present-day Storybrooke, even that would result in better, more fleshed out episodes.  As an example, "Quiet Minds" since I just watched it.  Flashback Neal and Belle, Present-day Emma trying to figure out the mystery of Neal showing up.  That should be it.  Why was there a chunk of time devoted to Regina and Robin pausing to drink whiskey at the farmhouse?  Why not leave that for another episode? Why did we need to see Zelena giving Snow orange juice and making sardonic remarks?  This resulted in both the flashback nor the present-day being rushed and lacking in character moments which could have made Neal's demise more moving.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Backtracking to early 3A and early 3B, Pan and Zelena felt very threatening. They were more like enigmas, but by the time we got to the latter half of their series of episodes, they lost everything intimidating about them because we found out their real plans. The villains and heroes are both dumb, but the villains only come close to winning because the writers stretch out a Hand of God to give them the higher ground. But then the heroes get some sort of contrivance at the last second, killing the villain effortlessly. (Regina with light magic, Rumple's shadow w/ dagger.)

 

 

I think it was a mistake for the show to jump immediately into redeeming ("redeeming") both Rumpel and Regina as soon as the curse ended.

 

I agree. The curse breaking did way too much in too little time. Everyone remembered, Emma believed, Rumple got Belle back, Emma reunited with her parents, magic came to Storybrooke, and the Enchanted Forest was revealed to be still kicking. More happened in 2 episodes than what several seasons could have covered. 

 

Regina's redemption arc starting in S2 was fine with me. It just executed horribly and got reverted over and over again. The writers just can't make up their minds whether they want Regina to be good or not. But with Rumple, I think he should have stayed evil. He's more entertaining that way. Redeemed Mr. Gold is more like a background character than a main cast member. Imp Rumple coming to Storybrooke completely would help the show so much. Just need to get rid of Belle!

 

I'd like a Big Bad to work in the background like a ghost, manipulating the events that happen. Regina and Rumple both did this in S1. Pan did it to some extent in 2B with the Home Office. If we can't get that, then at least a dark gray villain whose motive could change in an instant. Pan and Zelena were very two-dimensional, just like most cartoon villains. Someone more unpredictable would keep viewers on their toes.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

They don't reveal themselves to the heroes via sweeping monologues laying out all their grudges, fears, abilities and childhood traumas.

Zelena could have had everything she wanted while they were still in the Enchanted Forest if she'd just kept her trap shut. Showing up at Regina's castle just to try on her clothes, wear her jewels and gloat in her face was the boneheaded maneuver of the year because that's what tipped off the good guys that she was there and up to something. If they'd been none the wiser, she could have collected all her stuff, then maybe impersonated (since she was able to pose as Ariel) a castle maid and taken the baby from its cradle, since they wouldn't have known to have their guards up. Obviously, these people never read the Evil Overlord Handbook.

 

Also, it is not necessary to have a flashback in every episode.

I love the flashbacks when they tell an actual story, especially when it's the "the fairytale didn't happen the way you know it" kind of thing or when it fills in an interesting gap. The flashbacks are pointless when they're just "here's something that happened in the past that's kind of thematically related to what's happening in the present, but it doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things."

 

I have to add to my list of things that ended up having an implication they didn't necessarily mean:

Leopold proposing at first sight to the daughter of the woman he almost married and then rejected because she was lying to him about being knocked-up with someone else's child and stealing from him. That makes him look really skeevy and really stupid -- does he actually think it's a good idea to bring on the daughter of someone he knows is a conniving social climber to play the role of mother to his daughter? He knew Cora, what she wanted and what she was capable of. If he and Regina had a kid (and Cora hadn't been stuck in Wonderland), how long do you think Snow would have lived? Even if Regina was totally innocent, he should have known there was a good chance of Cora manipulating things to her own benefit.

[stealinghome]

I think the problem - because you guys are right that having an half season villain hurts the show, all everyone talks about at the end of the season is 'what is the next villain going to be?!' - would be having a villain that's not so much more powerful than our heroes, but who's smart. They don't reveal themselves to the heroes via sweeping monologues laying out all their grudges, fears, abilities and childhood traumas. They stay hidden in the shadows and occasionally send some minions to wreak havoc.

ITA...but this would require the writers to be smart, and to put more than .5 seconds of thought into the villain and come up with more than a paper-thin "plan" and "motive." Which means it won't happen. I've come to the conclusion that the writers for this show are fundamentally lazy writers (not as people, but as writers), not very smart writers, or some combination thereof.

 

I actually think having a "threat of the week", sent by a bigger Big Bad who stays in the shadows, could be the way to go for a while. The threats should be easily defeated, so we don't need to waste time on their whining, and the screentime that's saved is given to the main cast.

That's kind of what S1 did, and I think it's one of the reasons S1 is simply the best. They weren't "minions," exactly, but you saw Regina doing a lot of little stuff to screw things up for the heroes, throwing weekly obstacles at Emma that she had to defeat. The procedural format worked.

 

But on the other hand, I often enjoy the flashbacks more than the actual present-day story where the good guys act stupid and the bad guys gloat.  If there were no flashbacks, they writers need to use the time well, writing in character struggles, developments and purposeful conversations.  I suppose I'm just not sure they have the ability to do that.

I agree with both halves of this comment--that the writers aren't good enough to consistently produce quality episodes without flashbacks, and also that I often find the flashbacks way more interesting than the present day. imo, the trick with the flashbacks is what Shanna Marie said--the show just needs to go back to using the fairybacks to tell a coherent, complete story, and they'll be fine. (And I will say, that for all I found the Missing Year in 3B disappointing in oh-so-many ways, it at least had the semblance of this again.) tbh, I find the flashbacks in S1 to be far more engaging than the Storybrooke half of that season. So I'm firmly anti-dropping the flashbacks.

 

I mean...can you imagine if we dropped the fairybacks 100%? There's no way Adam and Eddie would use the time to have actual character moments and deepen relationships. We'd just get 50% more action, MONOLOGUING, and people running around like chickens with their heads cut off doing stupid things. No thank you.

[kili]

That makes him look really skeevy and really stupid

 

I don't think it makes him look really skeevy and really stupid...it makes him actually really skeevy and really stupid.

 

-- does he actually think it's a good idea to bring on the daughter of someone he knows is a conniving social climber to play the role of mother to his daughter? He knew Cora, what she wanted and what she was capable of. If he and Regina had a kid (and Cora hadn't been stuck in Wonderland), how long do you think Snow would have lived? Even if Regina was totally innocent, he should have known there was a good chance of Cora manipulating things to her own benefit.

 

I hate to defend him, because he's dead to me after the entire Cora engagement episode, but I don't think he ever knew what Cora was capable of. Given the warped "Blame-yourself" gene that the Snow family seems to be cursed with, I can see him blaming himself at least partly for the broken engagment. He's probably become fully convinced that Cora actually loved him and that she feared he didn't really love her enough to trust him with the  truth (and of course, that would be his fault). Poor little thing was forced by that crappy ne'er do well to steal for him and then Leopold punished her for it!  Even so, the worst he knows of her is that she will steal when blackmailed. Dim, trusting Leopold isn't going to make the leap to think that she's a bigger threat than that.  He probably sees himself marrying her daughter as atonement for harshly judging her back then and as a bonus, it provides Snow with a loving mother and grandmother. I don't think he ever realized that Cora was truly a manipulative, totally ruthless gold-digger. So, I can see him missing the implications and it is relatively consistent with what we've seen of him before.

 

I'm still more shocked by Snow's behaviour blaming her Mom for revealing the truth.  She at least knows who Cora really is, that Cora killed her mother and that her father was murdered by Regina. Snow should have been "Whew! Good old Mom! She's sure helped Dad dodge a bullet there. What in the hell was he thinking?"

[Rumsy4]

I agree with so many people in this thread that Pan and Zelena, while they started out as interesting villains, fizzled out pretty fast. I think Cora was the best outside villain in the Show. They should have kept her on as the Season 3 villain. If they had made Regina turn away from her mother after realizing that Cora had killed Eva and manipulated her rescue of young Snow, it would have been a better redemptive arc for Regina. They should have had Cora and Regina become antagonists at that point, with Cora trying to actively harm Henry. Then, they could have had Regina, Snowing and Emma having to team up in order to #savehenry. Cora could also have taken control of the Dagger and kept Rumple on a leash, thus combining all the plots in a more interesting manner. What was the point of setting a large portion of the story in Neverland, and not showing Neverland-related flashbacks? Or devoting a whole half season to a villain who was defeated three episodes before the finale? 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Or devoting a whole half season to a villain who was defeated three episodes before the finale?

 

This seems like something the writers just like doing, if you look at Season 2, Season 3A and Season 3B.  In Season 2, Cora died with 25% of the season left, to set up Home Office kidnapping Henry.  In 3A, Peter Pan was so-called defeated with 20% of the half-season left, with the last 2 episodes for getting rid of evil Panry and setting in motion the next Curse. And in 3B, again, Zelena died and 18% of the season was left for setting up Emma bringing back Elsa and Marion from the past.

[YaddaYadda]

I find that one of the main problems with the villains is that they think they're so clever and then they just leave with a mere whimper.  Even the way Cora was killed off.  I find the way these villains end is anti-climactic.  They monologue the hell out of it, I'm the awesomest villain who ever villained, and then gone.  Zelena's ending was horrible and Pan whom I thought was a potent villain ended terribly, I wish he wasn't Rumple's father. 

[stealinghome]

I have always thought that they rushed killing Cora because they found out halfway through S2 that they were going to Neverland and wanted to clear the decks, so to speak, for Neverland. I mean, Adam and Eddie have talked several times about finding out they got the rights to Neverland halfway through S2, and that they changed course to let 3A be Neverland. Dollars to donuts they truncated Cora's arc because of it.

[KingOfHearts]

Cora was also very over-powered. In a good way, but still. She even gave Rumple a run for his money. The writers probably didn't know how to keep her from killing everyone because she was so smart. They made Pan and Zelena dumb as rocks to keep them from (easily) winning. If Cora had the dagger without even becoming the Dark One, Storybrooke would be a smoking crater in a matter of minutes. The only reason the playing field was leveled prior was because she was trapped in other realms.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Making Pan into Rumple's father was a step too far. Nealfire already had a connection with Pan, as the Lost Boy who got away. Having three generations with a connection to Pan was in the realm of silly, plus sent Pan into twisted territory since he was planning to sacrifice his own great grandson. Letting Pan just be Pan, origins unknown and mysterious, who had some kind of quest to find the truest believer and who had a grudge against Nealfire for escaping Neverland, should have been more than enough. Ditch the weird "anti-magic" gang, which made no sense whatsoever to attach to Pan and which wasted a potentially interesting storyline about the relationship between Storybrooke and the outside world, and let Pan have his spies in every magical realm so that he could find Henry. Henry's passionate belief in Regina and needing to save her could have set off all the alarm bells to indicate that the one they were looking for had finally arrived.

[Camera One]

I have always thought that they rushed killing Cora because they found out halfway through S2 that they were going to Neverland and wanted to clear the decks, so to speak, for Neverland. I mean, Adam and Eddie have talked several times about finding out they got the rights to Neverland halfway through S2, and that they changed course to let 3A be Neverland. Dollars to donuts they truncated Cora's arc because of it.

 

It's still dumb though, since they could have had random people kidnap Henry to Neverland in the final episode without all that Home Office crap, or they could have gone backwards and told us the backstory of all that in S3.  Sudden news like the Neverland rights coming through would have caused changes, which is understandable, but it was just handled so badly.  It might be a case they were not willing to "let go" of certain things they wanted to do in S2, like the idiotic Owen/Owen's dad very-special What Was Early Storybrooke like? or having Regina sacrifice herself to demonstrate how much she loved Henry.

 

Making Pan into Rumple's father was a step too far.

 

I suspect Eddy and Adam were really proud of that "surprise" reveal.  The interviews seemed to be all about "You won't believe who Peter Pan really is!"  And they just love parallels and Peter Pan as Rumple's father just gives Daddy-issues another generational layer.  Plus they needed it to make 3A all about Rumple and allowing him to make the ultimate sacrifice à la Regina in S2.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[MedievalGirl]

Last night I watched the first 4 episodes of season 3 while I worked on a weaving project. I was mostly listening so since I wasn't seeing the same silly tropical shrubbery again and again it hung together a little more. Just an observation. The scenery is usually a plus on this show but it was detracting in these episodes. 

[scarynikki12]

 

Making Pan into Rumple's father was a step too far.

Seriously.  Since Rumpel is centuries old they easily could have presented Pan as someone he'd encountered a few times.  First, when Bae was still around, then a couple of times pre-Regina tutoring.  The key would be that Pan always won their encounters, as he had the magic of Neverland on his side.  That would give Rumpel pause, since he's used to being the big winner.  Throw in his magic not working the way it expects once he's actually in Neverland and I can see him letting the coward take over again.  That's honestly enough.  It ultimately didn't add anything new to the story, or to Rumpel's, Neal's, or Henry's characterizations.  Everything could have happened the exact same way without the father reveal.  I actually feel this way about Neal being Henry's father, but he's dead now so I don't care anymore.

[Rumsy4]

I think they didn't want Rumple to kill a child. So they decided to make Pan a de-aged loser. Make Pan Rumple's father, and throw-in abandonment-via-magic-bean, that packs more punch into Rumple's Tragic Back Story. It subtly asks the audience to sympathize with Rumple's refusal to move for Milah's sake, and for him letting go of Baelfire at the Portal.

[Featherhat]

I suspect Eddy and Adam were really proud of that "surprise" reveal.  The interviews seemed to be all about "You won't believe who Peter Pan really is!"  And they just love parallels and Peter Pan as Rumple's father just gives Daddy-issues another generational layer.  Plus they needed it to make 3A all about Rumple and allowing him to make the ultimate sacrifice à la Regina in S2.

 

And yet within a few episodes of S3 the debate was whether Pan would be Rumple's father or brother, not IS he connected? Great work guys. I was actually impressed with Evil!Pan and so disappointed with how he fizzled out. Even his Disney story can take on darker twists when you think about it. I am quite tired of how supposedly one set of daddy issues not just explains someone's personality, but actually excuses it and its especially wearing with Rumple who is the willing architect of  his down descent and destruction as much as anyone can be.

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena didn't need the family connection at all, either. It would have been perfectly fine for her to be just a rival to Regina. Even her appearance radiates a much darker and seedier Regina.

 

Can't people who aren't biologically related have a connection like family? Why do they have to be either blood related or in love to have deep relationship dynamics? It seems like platonic friendships/rivalries are becoming more and more extinct on this show. The writers shouldn't need a "related" twist to write compelling villains.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Zelena didn't need the family connection at all, either. It would have been perfectly fine for her to be just a rival to Regina. Even her appearance radiates a much darker and seedier Regina.

I definitely agree.  They were probably set on making sure we found out Snow's parents also ruined Regina's mother's life.  And the Wicked Witch of the West might not have had such a sad life if not for Snow White's mother.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I definitely agree.  They were probably set on making sure we found out Snow's parents also ruined Regina's mother's life.  And the Wicked Witch of the West might not have had such a sad life if not for Snow White's mother.

That's my issue though.  Zelena didn't seem like she had such a sad life.  Her adoptive mother seemed to love her, she insisted on taking her in and said that she would be the happiest baby in Oz.  Her father was a bit of a schmuck, but he seemed more scared of her magic  than he was of her per se.  I'm thinking that Zelena might have had a better life with those people than she might have with Cora. 

[Camera One]

Zelena didn't seem like she had such a sad life.

 

She totally didn't.  So I wasn't that convinced at her sob story.  

[KAOS Agent]

The funniest thing about making all of the villains related to each other is that it nullifies the "evil is made, not born" mantra they're constantly throwing out there. I'm starting to feel like there's an evil gene in the DNA of Enchanted Forest citizens. Or one could definitely make the case that the crazy runs strong in the Mills family.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

The writers are still saying evil is made, caused inadvertently by members of Snow White's family and well-meaning old women who give beans to children.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

The writers are still saying evil is made, caused inadvertently by members of Snow White's family and well-meaning old women who give beans to children.

I figure one of them is Snow's great-great-great-great (insert greats) grandmother.  That White family doesn't think enough about consequences.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Zelena didn't seem like she had such a sad life.

In Witch Hunt, Zelena said "try growing up without a mother", claiming she didn't have one. Actually, she did. The father seemed like a strict parent, but it wasn't like he didn't care about Zelena at all. He did give her advice from time to time, and it's not like he ever threatened her. They wanted to imply he was this really bad guy, but Zelena was just a whiny brat in my opinion.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I just rewatched "It's Not Easy Being Green" and Zelena's backstory just plain sucks.  There are so many things which were highly unbelievable with the plot.

 

1. Zelena seemed shocked when her father was so harsh, as if she hadn't been treated that way before.  Her adoptive mother seemed really loving in that first scene.  So why wouldn't her childhood have been happy?  So it makes no sense that she couldn't think of a happy memory.  Are we supposed to believe she went crazy just because she found out she was adopted?  I just didn't buy it, not from the innocent way in which the actress played her pre-Witch scenes.

 

2. Was the Wizard of Oz expecting Zelena?  If not, why would he have an entire pre-prepared Powerpoint presentation about Zelena's secret background?  How did he even get the "video footage" from the past with Cora abandoning the baby?  They didn't reveal what Oz wanted Zelena to get from Rumple.  Was it just anything?  Zelena spent all this time "training" with Rumple and never repaid Oz?   Oz could have used those magical slippers to go to any realm he wanted, including Kansas.  Why would he entrust them to some unstable lady, unless what he wanted from Rumple was important?  But it's not important enough to say?

 

3. Rumple just tells Zelena about the Curse outright?  Why was he suddenly so into sharing this episode?  Revealing his precious childhood memory?  This episode made him seem like a total idiot.  After Cora broke up with him, he didn't search into her background to find out she had a firstborn?  He didn't look into that before writing his contract with her?  Even Oz knew and he was a pathetic machine cranking fraud.  Rumple taught Zelena *all* his tricks?  She got away from him so easily.  And why would he need to teach Zelena anything, considering anyone can cast the Curse with no training at all (which was revealed just a few episodes later).  

 

4. Zelena knows all, and she REALLY wants Regina's heart, but she doesn't follow Regina to see where she hid the heart?  In hindsight, what was the point of this episode, when Zelena/Rumple easily gets the heart from Robin a few episodes later?  It makes this episode a total moot point.  

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[myril]

Didn't Adam&Eddy mumble in interviews before/during season 3 something about a reboot? Would explain a few things (Rumple as Neal 1.0, Zelena a radical of Regina), although as well could call it a pre-quel: The Fairy Tale Wars episode 1&2 (and epsiode 3 is ahead), telling much of the background story of Darth Rumple, how it all started with him as a young boy just whishing to be with his father and a feeling to be meant for something greater. (No, I don't fancy Star Wars episodes 1-3, besides Natalie Portman and Christoper Lee it was just stunning CGI - any tax accountant is a better fairy tale storyteller).

 

Instead of working out the kink and make the program run better and more smooth  they managed on Once to put in even more kinks, so that it runs now even worse, more bumps and plenty of dead links.

[Serena]

The funniest thing about making all of the villains related to each other is that it nullifies the "evil is made, not born" mantra they're constantly throwing out there. I'm starting to feel like there's an evil gene in the DNA of Enchanted Forest citizens. Or one could definitely make the case that the crazy runs strong in the Mills family.

Seriously! Evil isn't born, but Cora and all her daughters are evil. Also, Pan and Rumple. 

The only one I could see that's actually been "made" evil, IMO, would be Greg by Regina.

[Rumsy4]

From the Spoilers thread.

 

I'm actually starting to realize that Adam and Eddy are really using Lost as a road map for this show. The flashbacks, the heroes becoming villains and vice versa, etc. And the timeline issue is definitely a big thing the two share. Lost was on for seven seasons but when you break it down, the timeline of the characters is actually much shorter than that.

 

Their storytelling has always been influenced by LOST, but not in a good way for the most part, IMO! They repeat many of the early mistakes from LOST (example--too many new characters in S2, needless repetitive flashbacks, etc..). However the ending was received, LOST had really tight writing, and very few things slipped through the cracks. They made sure to have character moments in-between all that action. It's as if Adam and Eddy only distilled what they liked from writing for LOST, and now that they are showrunners, don't have other writers keeping them in check. With the good ratings OUAT has, it's unlikely the studio execs will interfere much at this point either. 

[sharky]

I definitely see that, although I'm sure there are things that fell through the Lost cracks as well when you start to think about it. And yes, there was also ridiculous extraneous stuff in Lost that bugged me as well. I think you're right that the ratings are doing A&E some favors when it comes to meddling execs but I doubt that's going to be the case when they're playing with Frozen -- at least that's my hope.

And you are spot on with the S2 character issues. Tamara and Greg were Nikki and Paolo.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't mind so much Zelena being Regina's sister, since that did get us at least a tiny bit of self-awareness from Regina in recognizing how unhinged she must have looked. Where they went over the top there was in connecting Snow's family to Cora's family that far back, so that it was Eva's "fault" that Zelena didn't get to grow up as a princess. I guess that was to give Regina more motivation to defeat her, since it would mean Henry was never born if Eva didn't marry Leopold, but they're getting into the realm of using coincidence to drive story events when everyone is connected in so many different ways, and that's seldom a good idea.

 

I'm almost at the end of season one in my rewatch, and it seemed to me like the bean Blue gave Bae might have been somehow supercharged. It was sparklier than I recall the other beans being, and she specifically said it was the last one known to her kind when we know there were other beans being grown around that time. So maybe it was the last bean capable of punching through to a world without magic and the beans Hook keeps getting his hands on are regular beans that can only open portals to worlds with magic.

[Camera One]

So maybe it was the last bean capable of punching through to a world without magic and the beans Hook keeps getting his hands on are regular beans that can only open portals to worlds with magic.

 

Responding in Magic thread.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't mind so much Zelena being Regina's sister, since that did get us at least a tiny bit of self-awareness from Regina in recognizing how unhinged she must have looked. 

 

I think Zelena being Regina's sister would have worked if she hadn't been killed in 3x20. After watching the Regina/Zelena scene at the jail cell, I could see them having a sister relationship in Storybrooke. It's sad that Zelena seemed to open to the idea of redeeming herself, only to be killed by Rumple just shortly after. If Zelena hadn't died, the Marian situation would look more optimistic, imo.

 

There was a cut line for Regina at the jail cell scene that said, "It's nice to have family in town." They should have kept that.