A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Delphi]

Lying is an interesting concept though.   I lie to my friends and coworkers a lot. How was my weekend.   How I enjoyed my vacation.   Lying to a partner is different.   At least I feel it is.   I fortunately have a great guy where I can just say that I don't want to discuss it now and will when I'm ready.   But I've had ones that don't accept that answer and want to be heavily included even if I'm not ready.  It's not a bad trait, it's very kind.   But sometimes people don't want to talk and Hook strikes me as the guy that wants to talk immediately and Emma is not that woman. It may not seem common given everything they've gone through, but I think it's definitely normal. 

[profdanglais]

I'm a very secretive person and it's hard for me to talk about things that affect me emotionally. So I get Emma in that respect. But I also get that if I shut my husband out it hurts his feelings and our relationship. So I talk to him as much as possible and he understands that sometimes I'm not ready to talk yet. I do think Hook understands that Emma's first instinct when she's emotional is to shut down, which is why he left her alone when she asked him to. But Emma needs to learn to think about him and how he feels when she closes up. She has to give him something, even just "I can't talk about it yet, give me time." He'll understand. This does seem like a natural problem to have when someone like Emma gets into a serious romantic relationship, but the Show isn't framing it that way, they're framing it as another instance of someone hiding a secret for no good reason. That's what makes it so frustrating.  

[YaddaYadda]

This is NOT season 1 Emma. No way. Even with the lie, this Emma and season 1 Emma are like day and night.

After rewatching the episode, and the discussion about the walls going back up and all that, I just don't see things the way I did. Yeah, Emma has her walls back up in the sense that she is lying to protect someone/people she loves, but at the same time, her walls are lowered enough that she actually went to Hook after finding out what the vision was and the end result of that.

She didn't retreat back within her shell completely which is something she would have most definitely done in the past. 

I think this shows that Emma is behaving differently.

Personally, I have a really difficult time with Archie showing up and telling her that by being open the way she is now, she makes herself more vulnerable to the outside forces that might try to tear her apart. And this is what Emma has done. She listened to that idiot. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Personally, I have a really difficult time with Archie showing up and telling her that by being open the way she is now, she makes herself more vulnerable to the outside forces that might try to tear her apart. And this is what Emma has done. She listened to that idiot. 

This is likely a ploy by the writers as to why Emma is suddenly manifesting hand-tremors after 5 seasons of being a "savior", and to explain Emma's retreat. 

[KingOfHearts]

My guess for the tremors is that EQ is in town in her full glory. If she is Emma'a final villain in that form, maybe that triggered the visions. Hyde made a big deal about the new arrivals possibly killing her. He just didn't know it would be the Evil Queen instead.

[Free]

11 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

This is NOT season 1 Emma. No way. Even with the lie, this Emma and season 1 Emma are like day and night.

After rewatching the episode, and the discussion about the walls going back up and all that, I just don't see things the way I did. Yeah, Emma has her walls back up in the sense that she is lying to protect someone/people she loves, but at the same time, her walls are lowered enough that she actually went to Hook after finding out what the vision was and the end result of that.

She didn't retreat back within her shell completely which is something she would have most definitely done in the past. 

I think this shows that Emma is behaving differently.

Personally, I have a really difficult time with Archie showing up and telling her that by being open the way she is now, she makes herself more vulnerable to the outside forces that might try to tear her apart. And this is what Emma has done. She listened to that idiot. 

S1 was helped immensely by being much more character driven, this allowed more development at the time instead of hitting the reset button again and again while making the same mistakes for the umpteenth time.

[Camera One]

So... what exactly was Hyde's plan?  He brought over a bunch of people who were clearly afraid of him and didn't like him.  He was declaring that he now "owns" the town and Rumple "gave him the key", but what did that even mean?  How was he going to assert his authority?  Would he have gone hunting for them in the forest?  If he caught them, why would they do what he want?  He wanted to rule Storybrooke, because???   How could all those people fit into Granny's?  Is Granny's normally the reception centre for refugees?  

It was Arthur "building a new Camelot in Storybrooke" all over again.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

At least Storybrooke has some room for the newcomers since the Camelotians left town yesterday. Maybe the Camelot tent city is still set up. At the very least, the supplies for the tents should still be easily accessible.

[Free]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

So... what exactly was Hyde's plan?  He brought over a bunch of people who were clearly afraid of him and didn't like him.  He was declaring that he now "owns" the town and Rumple "gave him the key", but what did that even mean?  How was he going to assert his authority?  Would he have gone hunting for them in the forest?  If he caught them, why would they do what he want?  He wanted to rule Storybrooke, because???   How could all those people fit into Granny's?  Is Granny's normally the reception centre for refugees?  

It was Arthur "building a new Camelot in Storybrooke" all over again.

Yup, he'll probably be gone by mid season too.  Granny and the others are just there to stand around and not being able to do anything while the side characters of the arc take center stage for about half a season.

[Rumsy4]

Yes--what is this "key" of Storybrooke?? Does Rumple still own most of the property in Storybrooke, and did he transfer ownership to Hyde's name? Hyde seems to have moved in somewhere already. Did he just kick somebody out of their home? Is he some kind of obsessive storyteller who wants to watch people's stories play out? What is his end goal?

[Shanna Marie]

Also, did everyone come over in the dirigible? It didn't seem big enough to have held all the people from the Land of Untold Stories. Did some come in a different way? Did he only bring a few people? How did they get picked -- volunteers, or were they kidnapped?

And why does Hyde even care? Was it Jekyll who went to the Land of Untold Stories to keep Hyde from being able to play out his story, and Hyde wanted out to carry out his plan? But then why Storybrooke? Why not just get the portal or whatever and then go anywhere else? What was it that kept them from coming over before and allows them now?

[Free]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes--what is this "key" of Storybrooke?? Does Rumple still own most of the property in Storybrooke, and did he transfer ownership to Hyde's name? Hyde seems to have moved in somewhere already. Did he just kick somebody out of their home? Is he some kind of obsessive storyteller who wants to watch people's stories play out? What is his end goal?

Plot device of the arc/season, I guess.  The townspeople won't actually care or matter beyond background set decoration, that and they're used to it playing out over and over again.

Quote

Also, did everyone come over in the dirigible? It didn't seem big enough to have held all the people from the Land of Untold Stories. Did some come in a different way? Did he only bring a few people? How did they get picked -- volunteers, or were they kidnapped?

And why does Hyde even care? Was it Jekyll who went to the Land of Untold Stories to keep Hyde from being able to play out his story, and Hyde wanted out to carry out his plan? But then why Storybrooke? Why not just get the portal or whatever and then go anywhere else? What was it that kept them from coming over before and allows them now?

That's what happens when you introduce so many means for characters to travel to different worlds (like the portals, beans, magic, etc.), but can't come up with any reasonable explanation to do so.

[InsertWordHere]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes--what is this "key" of Storybrooke??

I think Rumple gave him the keys to understanding Storybrooke. Like Emma is the savior who was once in prison (I call BS on Hyde being able to read her that well, Rumple told him). She'll want to help the Untold Stories people. You can use this to distract her while you get the thingamjig from the secret extra bedroom in Snow White's hovel. Regina thinks she's two separate people. You say your other self is with her right now and he has a potion that can split people into two separate entities? She'll totally drink it. Her other half has consent issues, so watch your heart. Trains pass through Storybrooke even though that doesn't make sense. You can plan a fun train heist. 

Spoiler

Make sure you bring someone Hook's wronged in the past with you.  He'll mope about it for a few days and while it won't drive him and Emma apart, it will be fun to watch him suffer.

Or maybe he just gave him the secret Storybrooke map key or something. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

I like the idea of it being a metaphorical key, and Rumple gave him this huge infodump. Moreover, I think Rumple knows more about the Dark Curse than Regina ever did. Maybe there's some element one can manipulate in order to freeze or jump start someone's story. :-p

[Curio]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

He was declaring that he now "owns" the town and Rumple "gave him the key", but what did that even mean?

Every season there seems to be some kind of vague threat that the writers set up that makes no sense and doesn't have any weight to it because the audience has no idea what the hell they're talking about. 

"We need to snuff out the light so we can do...something bad?"
"When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky, I'm going to rule...everywhere?"
"I need to turn Emma's heart dark because of...reasons?"
"I'm going to write your names on tombstones so I can...move to Storybrooke?"
"I'm going to destroy magic because...Neal?"

The show would be much better off having a small, intimate threat instead of introducing apocalyptic villainous schemes that are never logical. That's why Neverland worked well for a bit because the main problem was very straightforward: Henry is kidnapped; we need to rescue Henry. Done. That's it. Good. But then they tried to get too fancy with heart stuff and the magic on the island dying and Pan trying to take over Storybrooke.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

Remember when the Snow Queen said Rumple would want to rule the entire world... is that still on his to-do list?

Why didn't they just have Rumple create a portal for Hyde to allow him to get to Storybrooke with his "troops", and that's his favor?  Hyde already appeared to some of them (Regina and Henry?) in the 5B finale, so why were they so surprised in the 6A premiere?  There were dirigibles flying all over The Land of Untold Stories, yet no one aboard knew how to land it properly?  Belle's fetus knows about the Red Room?  He could hear Hyde mentioning Morpheus from inside Pandora's Box where he and Belle were sleeping?  

Edited September 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why didn't they just have Rumple create a portal for Hyde to allow him to get to Storybrooke with his "troops", and that's his favor? Hyde already appeared to some of them (Regina and Henry?) in the 5B finale, so why were they so surprised in the 6A premiere? 

How did Hyde get to Storybrooke in the 5B finale? Did Rumple create a portal for him? How? All of a sudden Hyde just showed up and was like, "Yeah, Gold helped me out." Is there still that portal door in the Sorcerer's Mansion? Why is it even considered Merlin's Mansion? He was stuck in a tree for centuries! He's never lived there!

And is the dirigible itself a realm-hopping mechanism? If so, can we please keep it around as a permanent realm-hopping ship? We could have so many fun stories where Hook captains the dirigible and Team Storybrooke flies to new lands to help defeat villains in Agrabah, the Enchanted Forest, or anywhere. It's incredibly frustrating because the writers have introduced so many realm-hopping tools, but whenever a new episode is written, they forget about them and introduce something new. So now we've got:

1. Magic beans
2. Dark curses
3. Mermaids/Ursula
4. White rabbits
5. Magical doors
6. Magical wands
7. Magical pens
8. Magical scrolls
9. Dark One clouds
10. Lakes with blood
11. Tornados
12. The power of penny magic and believing
13. Dirigibles

And somehow, Season 6 is the time where A&E suddenly decide that everyone needs to stay back in Storybrooke for a long time. When they introduce so many realm-hopping possibilities, it would make sense to let the characters have some fun and explore other lands. Storybrooke can always be home base, but why don't they ever want to vacation anywhere? Why do they always want to be cooped up in a town where they're never allowed to leave the perimeter? That sounds kind of creepy. It's like the writers think the only reason the characters can leave Storybrooke is if there's a crisis, but why not show us a Charming family vacation to the Enchanted Forest? The gang could be taking a totally non-lifethreatening family vacation to visit some castles, and then while they're having a nice time in a different realm, they run into an issue they need to solve while on vacation. With so many portals available now, they shouldn't have to always freak out over how they're going to get back home. They could visit the Enchanted Forest one episode and hop back to Storybrooke the next episode in the blink of an eye.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

The show would be much better off having a small, intimate threat instead of introducing apocalyptic villainous schemes that are never logical. That's why Neverland worked well for a bit because the main problem was very straightforward: Henry is kidnapped; we need to rescue Henry. Done. That's it. Good. But then they tried to get too fancy with heart stuff and the magic on the island dying and Pan trying to take over Storybrooke.

How was that a problem?  Pan couldn't have kidnapped Henry without a motive, otherwise he's just a plot device to give the heroes something to do, the whole heart stuff and magic dying (which it wasn't, that was a lie Pan told Henry...in reality, his link to the magic was dying, which meant he would die too) explained why Henry would be kidnapped in the first place.  And taking over Storybrooke was just his Plan B that was to achieve the same end: stay young forever and avoid death.  He wasn't out to destroy or take over the world, he just wanted to live forever as a teenager and have "fun".

Edited September 28, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

When I said the main problem, I meant the main conflict of the arc. I wasn't saying the plot was problematic, I was complimenting the let's-kidnap-Henry plot because of its smaller scope.

[Shanna Marie]

On the episode thread, there was some discussion about how little from past seasons mattered and whether you could come into the show not worried about continuity. I think they kind of have the worst of both worlds here.

At this point, I think it would be nearly impossible for new viewers to join in without being hopelessly lost. The familiar characters are actually counting against them now because there have been so many twists along the way. You'd be even more confused coming in with an understanding of Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, the Peter Pan story, etc., than just taking the show on face value (if there are that many people who aren't familiar with the iconic stories). I can imagine explaining it -- yes, that's the Evil Queen, and that other one is also the Evil Queen, only she's just the good part of her because she's split, and yes, that's Snow White, and yeah, they're friends, but the Evil Queen still hates Snow White. Yeah, that's the Beauty and the Beast song, and that's Belle, and yeah, they're calling the Beast Rumple because he's Rumplestiltskin, and he's still evil but Belle's still with him sometimes. Yeah, the guy with a hook is Captain Hook, but he's a good guy now. Even casual viewers who are familiar with the main twists may still have trouble keeping up with what's going on because it's all pretty convoluted.

But it makes less sense for those who really are paying attention. The continuity is terrible, with things often contradicting each other, and it's not just in nitpicky details like what outfit the Evil Queen was wearing in which flashback or whether Hook's hook was enchanted or he was given a potion. There are things like the entire season spent repeating the "villains don't get happy endings" mantra, but then this latest episode, in which we're told that Saviors don't get happily ever afters. There's very little payoff to major events, and nothing has real consequences. Very little of the entire last season seems to matter now, only Robin's death, pregnant Belle and the sleeping curse, and the arrival of the Land of Untold Stories people. Season 4 has been more or less erased from existence (which isn't entirely bad). If you hadn't watched season 4 and skipped straight from the finale of season 3 to the finale of season 5, about the only thing you'd need explained is how Zelena is alive again and why she has a baby and what the deal is with Henry's magic pen.

So, it makes little sense for anyone just joining in or watching sporadically, but it doesn't reward ongoing viewing.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

At this point, I think it would be nearly impossible for new viewers to join in without being hopelessly lost. 

It's hard for casual viewers to keep track of who is "dark" or "light" any more. You've got the Evil Queen, who is Regina but not really, Rumple going from hero in 5A back to a villain, and Zelena sorta-kinda redeemed. Things like Dark Swan and Dark Hook just muddle it further for them.

Quote

But it makes less sense for those who really are paying attention. The continuity is terrible, with things often contradicting each other, and it's not just in nitpicky details like what outfit the Evil Queen was wearing in which flashback or whether Hook's hook was enchanted or he was given a potion. There are things like the entire season spent repeating the "villains don't get happy endings" mantra, but then this latest episode, in which we're told that Saviors don't get happily ever afters. 

Even though casual viewers don't catch the nitpicks nor intricate incontinuities,  they can still smell it. If it the details don't make sense, the big picture won't either. It's not confusing because the show is super complicated (not to say it isn't), but because there's no logic. You can't find logic where there is none. There's just enough distractions to keep people thinking they just don't understand the "genius" of the writing.

Edited September 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I like baby Morpheus. I'm going to keep calling him that though he was only pretending. I think he inherited his papa's deviousness, even if he used it for "good". He's the first child conceived when Rumple was actually the Dark One. If Henry is supposed to be a product of Light ans Dark, and that makes him the Truest Believer (Stupid), baby Morpheus must have some powers too. Maybe the baby will magically age rapidly as soon as he is born. It's not an uncommon trope in the fantasy genre. 

Morph said the dream world was both his and his mother's. Could that be why Belle seemed more scared of Rumple than in past flashbacks? A child of a messed up relationship sometimes has a different perspective of things. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

If Henry is supposed to be a product of Light ans Dark, and that makes him the Truest Believer (Stupid), baby Morpheus must have some powers too.

I don't get this. How is Henry the product of light and dark. When Bae was born, Rumple wasn't the Dark One. I don't understand how they came up with this. The only thing Henry is a product of is a faulty condom or unprotected sex.

Edited September 29, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Free]

On 9/28/2016 at 10:50 AM, Curio said:

How did Hyde get to Storybrooke in the 5B finale? Did Rumple create a portal for him? How? All of a sudden Hyde just showed up and was like, "Yeah, Gold helped me out." Is there still that portal door in the Sorcerer's Mansion? Why is it even considered Merlin's Mansion? He was stuck in a tree for centuries! He's never lived there!

And is the dirigible itself a realm-hopping mechanism? If so, can we please keep it around as a permanent realm-hopping ship? We could have so many fun stories where Hook captains the dirigible and Team Storybrooke flies to new lands to help defeat villains in Agrabah, the Enchanted Forest, or anywhere. It's incredibly frustrating because the writers have introduced so many realm-hopping tools, but whenever a new episode is written, they forget about them and introduce something new. So now we've got:

1. Magic beans
2. Dark curses
3. Mermaids/Ursula
4. White rabbits
5. Magical doors
6. Magical wands
7. Magical pens
8. Magical scrolls
9. Dark One clouds
10. Lakes with blood
11. Tornados
12. The power of penny magic and believing
13. Dirigibles

And somehow, Season 6 is the time where A&E suddenly decide that everyone needs to stay back in Storybrooke for a long time. When they introduce so many realm-hopping possibilities, it would make sense to let the characters have some fun and explore other lands. Storybrooke can always be home base, but why don't they ever want to vacation anywhere? Why do they always want to be cooped up in a town where they're never allowed to leave the perimeter? That sounds kind of creepy. It's like the writers think the only reason the characters can leave Storybrooke is if there's a crisis, but why not show us a Charming family vacation to the Enchanted Forest? The gang could be taking a totally non-lifethreatening family vacation to visit some castles, and then while they're having a nice time in a different realm, they run into an issue they need to solve while on vacation. With so many portals available now, they shouldn't have to always freak out over how they're going to get back home. They could visit the Enchanted Forest one episode and hop back to Storybrooke the next episode in the blink of an eye.

When you put it like that, it's really ridiculous how there's so many ways to travel to different worlds at a whim with little to no effort whatsoever.  Once is a series in desperate need of rules and boundaries, otherwise it's plot devices/conveniences galore.

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I don't get this. How is Henry the product of light and dark. When Bae was born, Rumple wasn't the Dark One. I don't understand how they came up with this. The only thing Henry is a product of is a faulty condom or unprotected sex.

A case of retroactive DNA mutation, perhaps? lol IDEK

[Mari]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

 

Morph said the dream world was both his and his mother's. Could that be why Belle seemed more scared of Rumple than in past flashbacks? A child of a messed up relationship sometimes has a different perspective of things. 

That is a theory that makes a lot of sense; until then, that would explain the creepiness of a time and place that Belle had repeatedly been pleased and affectionate about.  (I'm probably going to stick with Damien. For now.)

[Camera One]

It still doesn't make sense to me.  How can the baby change Belle's own consciousness?  As much as I liked the twist and the actor who played Morpheus, how does a 2-week year old fetus have fully formed thoughts?  Where is the real Morpheus?  Rumple didn't want to TLK Belle before since it might break the Dark One Curse.  But he gets to stay the Dark One if he kisses Belle inside the dream world?  

[Rumsy4]

Yeah--it made no sense logic-wise. Rumple did try to kiss her in the UW. It just didn't work. Maybe he thought it might work if Belle thought she didn't know who he was. He started to turn normal in the Dreamscape when they kissed, and he stopped it like before. I don't know what he was hoping to achieve. Did he think he would let the TLK proceed until it broke the Sleeping Curse, but not the Dark Curse?

Edited September 30, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I find it funny we can thoroughly enjoy a subplot that makes zero sense.  Oh well, we take what we can get.

[Rumsy4]

That's the only way to enjoy the Show! lol

[KingOfHearts]

Morphien (Let's compromise. Morpheus + Damien) kind of works if you don't think about it too much. Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous, but at least it was somewhat thought-out and entertaining. It doesn't matter if magic doesn't make 100% sense as long as what it accomplishes is adequately compelling. We wouldn't be so focused on nitpicks or flaws if the story was enough to think about. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think Damien necessarily had to be manipulating Belle's dreams. We haven't seen most of Belle's experience in Rumple's castle. They skipped straight to the part where they were falling in love, but there was the early time we saw in the Robin Hood flashback, where she was sobbing her eyes out in the dungeon. Then there's the fact that dreams aren't necessarily accurate representations about events. Belle went into the sleeping curse with very negative impressions of Rumple, from him lying about being the Dark One again, his betrayal in getting the powers back when he could have been free of them, to his having sold his second-born to Hades, to everything that went down with Gaston. That might have made her turn any good memories into nightmares. Then Rumple inserted himself into her existing dream, throwing in all their iconic romantic moments to try to sway her, so the dream may have come from the time before things got better, when she was still afraid, but then he fast-forwarded to the cup and the dance (that came much later). Damien might be getting to spy on his mother's dreams, and that would be how he knows about their relationship, but I don't see how he could get any outside information that he could have used to manipulate her dreams.

[Rumsy4]

I didn't say he was intentionally manipulating Belle's dreams. The dreamscape is both their shared dream. It's an interesting idea that Belle's present experiences were coloring her memories of the past. That could well be it. 

[Camera One]

Weren't the flashbacks in "Heroes and Villains" before they fell in love?  She was talking back to Rumple and was her usual spunky self.  Belle is so all over the place with her feelings about Rumple that I suppose A&E could justify whatever, but it just didn't feel convincing to me.  It seemed like another way to make us "fall in love" with Rumbelle all over again, so we can again yearn for their next reconciliation.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

From the episode thread:

Quote

She does, she says so when Regina revealed to her that Cora killed Daniel in 1x21's flashback.

Regina: She ripped his heart out because of you. Because you couldn’t listen to me. 
Snow: You took my father. Haven’t we both suffered enough? 

This is why I like these forums, because I honestly never knew this dialogue existed. The way Snow acted in Season 2 about the Cora situation, I genuinely thought she didn't know Regina killed her father. Did she discover this information off screen? Is she just assuming Regina killed him? Why wasn't that ever brought up more significantly when Cora died? Regina was allowed to be so angry with Snow for killing Cora, but Snow has only ever gotten that one offhanded line about Regina killing her father. How is that fair? This just makes me think even less of Snow now.

So that bench scene in "The Savior" now essentially translates to, "Well, when your mother killed my mother, and when you killed my father...I mean, I had nothing. And then I realized, while you...I mean your totally different alter ego the Evil Queen...was trying to kill me, that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up. You taught me how to have faith. You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice. So thank you for killing my father and for trying to kill me all those years. Let's link arms and happily walk away now."

I pray to Granny's lasagne Emma doesn't know Regina killed Graham. At least that way I can somewhat give her a pass for being nice to Regina.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I wouldn't put it past them to have a conversation in the final season where Emma thanks Regina for helping her to believe and jumpstarting the start of dismantling walls by killing Graham.  By challenging her, Regina helped her to confront her fears and fight for her family and friends.  She needed that.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Camera One

[RadioGirl27]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I wouldn't put it past them to have a conversation in the final season where Emma thanks Regina for helping her to believe and jumpstarting the start of dismantling walls by killing Graham.  By challenging her, Regina helped her to confront her fears and fight for her family and friends.  She needed that.

Yeah. If Emma ever discovers what Regina did to Graham, she would thank her for killing him so she was single when she met Hook and, after that, both of them would go to get some shots.

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

So that bench scene in "The Savior" now essentially translates to, "Well, when your mother killed my mother, and when you killed my father...I mean, I had nothing. And then I realized, while you...I mean your totally different alter ego the Evil Queen...was trying to kill me, that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up. You taught me how to have faith. You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice. So thank you for killing my father and for trying to kill me all those years. Let's link arms and happily walk away now."

Does nobody even notice how contradictory this is?  By Snow's own logic, Regina didn't teach her about faith and hope...the Evil Queen is!

She should save her thanks for her.  Then EQ can say "you're welcome", rip Snow's heart out, and crush it.  I think I'd like to see that now.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Does nobody even notice how contradictory this is?  By Snow's own logic, Regina didn't teach her about faith and hope...the Evil Queen is!

This is why I knew going in this arc would make no sense. It might even give Operation Dumbass a run for it's money.

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Does nobody even notice how contradictory this is?  By Snow's own logic, Regina didn't teach her about faith and hope...the Evil Queen is!

The bad things Regina did get shoved off to the Evil Queen, while the good things (real or imagined) are attributed to "Regina". So disingenuous!

[YaddaYadda]

21 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Does nobody even notice how contradictory this is?  By Snow's own logic, Regina didn't teach her about faith and hope...the Evil Queen is!

She should save her thanks for her.  Then EQ can say "you're welcome", rip Snow's heart out, and crush it.  I think I'd like to see that now.

Snow is delusional. She's even more delusional when she says she and Emma had their ups and downs, but they were honest with each other.

When did that happen? They skipped right over a whole bunch of issues with a hug.

Snow needs Archie's therapy special more than Emma does at this point. She needs to fix those mommy issues she has.

[Camera One]

Adam and Eddy are the delusional ones to think they actually wrote that.  Between Season 3-5, Snow and Emma probably had less than 10 minutes of solo conversation time together.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

When is the last time Emma had a solo scene with Snow? That 20 second getting ready for the ball scene in 5.02? And prior to that I can't think of one after 3.11.

[Camera One]

There was that 20 second conversation when Snow hit her head in "Mother".  I guess it wasn't technically a solo scene?  Maybe it's more like 5 minutes in total...

[Curio]

Emma and Snow kind of had a solo scene in Season 4...but again not really because there were other people there...when Emma came to the baby class and accidentally heated up the milk.

When you put it into perspective, over the past three seasons Snow and Emma haven't had a conversation alone together that lasted longer than half the conversation Snow and Regina had on the bench in 6x01. The last conversation they've had that comes close to touching the bench scene was over 50 episodes ago in "Lost Girl." It almost makes you wonder if Ginny and Jen had a falling out behind the scenes because it seems insane to keep those two characters separated that long. But hey, A&E claim the family dynamics are the most important part of this show, so...

As much as I've been waiting for a proper TLK between Emma and Hook, I'd be ecstatic to have a TLK between Snow and Emma. But the sad thing is it would seem unearned unless they really focused this season on giving them more scenes together. Charming would be more qualified to wake Emma at this point.

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

When is the last time Emma had a solo scene with Snow? That 20 second getting ready for the ball scene in 5.02? And prior to that I can't think of one after 3.11.

There was that scene in 3B when Emma couldn't find the book and MM found it where she accused her of not wanting to find it. That scene was pretty horrible and lasted more than 20 seconds, because when it comes to Emma getting smacked down, those scenes usually last longer.

36 minutes ago, Curio said:

As much as I've been waiting for a proper TLK between Emma and Hook, I'd be ecstatic to have a TLK between Snow and Emma. But the sad thing is it would seem unearned unless they really focused this season on giving them more scenes together. Charming would be more qualified to wake Emma at this point.

I've thought about this, and I agree, it would feel so very unearned, and another let's slap a band aid on this the same way they did in 4x08, 4x20 and the list of episodes go on. If they address the issues between Emma and Snow, fine, give them a TLK. If they don't, then no. As far as I'm concerned, Snow hasn't earned anything with Emma, not since sometime in season 2.

Snow can go and TLK her real daughter, Regina.

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Snow can go and TLK her real daughter, Regina.

Based on the bench scene and the amount of time and development the writers have given those two since Season 4, they're actually far more qualified for a TLK at this point than Emma/Snow.

[Camera One]

Despite the amount of time they've given Snow and Regina, they haven't sold that relationship to me at all, so it's even more of a fail.

"Breaking Glass", "Lily" and "Only You" alone likely produced more Emma/Regina solo scenes than Emma/Snow, even taking into consideration Season 1 and 2.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Kktjones]

This goes back to one of my main complaints about the show. Characters are only allowed to interact with certain other characters. In fact, seeing Emma talk to Belle in that sneak peek was probably one of the only times they've ever spoken to each other.

Emma, as the main character, gets to talk to most other the others (although she rarely gets to talk to Snow anymore). Now that Robin is gone, Regina is only allowed to talk to Snow, Henry, Zelena, and Emma (and perhaps Charming if he's with Snow). Henry only interacts with Regina and Emma. Hook only talks to Emma, Rumple and Charming. Belle only gets Rumple, although it looks like they might have her and Hook interacting more this season. Poor Zelena - she only gets the two versions of Regina. Things would get so much more interesting if they opened that up. Let Snow and Hook have a scene together. What about Charming and Rumple? Belle and Regina? Zelena and Henry?

Anyway, I'm just so tired of the Regina/Snow and Regina/Emma relationships - it feels like the same pity party conversation over and over again.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I took it more to mean that one can't avoid their fate. It's like that bullshit Merlin kept spewing last year. Or what the Seer told Rumple that no matter what he would have done, gone into battle or fled like he did, the end result was going to be the same. As far as hopeful messages go, that one basically sucks. All roads will lead you to your doom.

This is another reason why this show is depressing as hell.  When it's convenient, there's limited self-determination and free will. I was first bothered by it in Season 1 when Snow drank that potion, and she had no ability to break free from that spell herself (without TLK).  In that S1 episode, if she killed Regina, then there was supposedly no return and she would have darkness forever (except that's definitely not the case with redeemed villains like Regina).  What's the point of Merlin warning Emma in the theatre if everything was "inevitable", as the Oracle said?  The S6 premiere's lesson was you can "choose" to have hope, but why, when Fate has determined where you will end up?