A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

I really don't get why they are so adverse to doing more time jumps, if only to explain Henry aging.  They completely ignore the fact that the boy looks older.  The easiest would have been an age-up from the transition of Peter Pan leaving his body or taking his heart.  In addition, the 3A-3B time jump should have been longer.  Ditto for the 4A-4B time jump.  I also agree that the 4B-5A time jump should have been longer, though they'd need to explain what Emma did in that interim time.

[KingOfHearts]

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I really don't get why they are so adverse to doing more time jumps, if only to explain Henry aging.  

Here's the thing about time jumps - the writers have to map out in their minds what happened during the jump. When we see the characters again, they have to act as though they developed over that time. Alas, the writers can only see what's right in front of them. It's just evidence that even they don't know where their characters would go if they grew organically. They don't know where Captain Swan will be in a week let alone months. The timeline moves at snail pace because it's all they can handle. And when there is a time jump, say with Camelot in S5, there needs to be memory wipes and flashbacks so everything moves along linearly.

If you take a look at the flashbacks of things that happened over the course of years, you'll see there's inconsistencies. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Well, yes, good writers would map out what happened.  But, well, TS;TW.  

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, profdanglais said:

Give the characters time to worry about Dark Emma, where she's gone and what she's doing, before they find a way to get to her. Show us Hook and the Charmings getting closer as they work together to find her. Show us Regina feeling remorseful about Emma taking the darkness instead of her and using all her magical knowledge to help find her. Don't just give us some super powerful wand that summons up a portal five minutes after Emma left. 

It is possible to do a time jump within an episode -- give us the immediate aftermath of Emma arriving in the Dark One vault and show where she goes as a way of resolving the cliffhanger, then cut to Storybrooke and say "6 months later" or "a year later." We didn't need to see the immediate aftermath of the gang in Storybrooke unless they were going to do something totally unexpected.  We could have written the scene they showed us well ahead of time and been spot-on -- Hook would immediately try to summon Emma while the others worried that it might be dangerous. Regina would say something snarky and inappropriate. Snow would mildly scold her while acting stricken. The question was where Emma went and what happened to her, what she'd be like as a Dark One. Establish that, even if it's just to show her hanging out in the vault so she can avoid temptation, and then skip ahead to when she's starting to lose hope because she hasn't heard from her loved ones. The darkness is creeping up on her as Head Rumple taunts her about them failing her. Then show how everyone's frazzled from having tried everything they can think of. They aren't giving up, but they don't know what to do. They're keeping an eye on Hook for fear that he'll do something stupid and impulsive (with the implication that he's already tried at least one almost disastrously stupid thing). Show what life is like without Emma for them, what her life is like without them. Head Rumple could even taunt her by taking the form of her various friends and family members so that she can interact with the rest of the cast. In desperation, she leaves the vault, just as they manage to come to her.

Or something. I'd really like to rework all it because, as usual, they went about it in the least interesting way possible. Why have the whole gang just pop over in a flying Granny's? Why not have individuals get there on their own and have to come together -- Like Hook does that impulsive thing when he finds one of the doors in the Sorcerer's house and goes through the portal without telling anyone and finds himself in Camelot or the Enchanted Forest, where he goes searching for Emma. Meanwhile, the rest of the gang now has to look for him and worry what he might do, since he doesn't make good decisions when he's emotional, so it's even more urgent.

I also think the gap between 4A and 4B should have been longer. Let us see Rumple having to live without his powers in the regular world. Let us see Belle really having a life without him, actually moving on so that his return upsets her life. Though I guess that would have required a different carry-over cliffhanger than the Author plot, since they'd have really looked like idiots if they'd spent even more time on that during the hiatus.

[Camera One]

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Here's the thing about time jumps - the writers have to map out in their minds what happened during the jump. When we see the characters again, they have to act as though they developed over that time.

That reminds me of that 6-week time jump they had at the beginning of 4B, with the montage where Snow is teaching her class, Henry is still in her class, and Regina goes and sets Snow's painting on fire in the mayor's office.  With no explanation whatsoever.  Meanwhile, apparently nothing else happened other than Hook and Belle trying to free the fairies in the hat.  Who knew you can have some characters do nothing while others make life decisions with nothing said about it.

I was also thinking about that Missing Year, and the natural problems that would have resulted in them all returning to the Enchanted Forest for the first time in 28 years.  There were so many issues... politically, with control of the kingdoms and destruction from the Curse/Ogres/looters; emotionally, in terms of Snowing dealing with life without Emma or Henry, or Regina being back in the land where she was once a complete monster; in practical terms, everyone's living arrangements... yet the Writers immediately threw in new unnecessary conflicts, from Aurora/Philip's betrayal, to the Winged Monkeys and Zelena occupying Regina's castle.   How could such a good setup have led to such a bad half-season.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

For example, the show had a mystery to it, not just figuring out what person was what fairy tale character, but the town itself had a kind of mystical quality to it, where things were normal, but also just slightly...off, in a way that only Emma and the audience could see. It almost came off as magical realism, with a quirky, almost Stephen King "Creepy East Coast" vibe.

I think that's one of the things I miss most, as it's part of what hooked me. The town had a quirky quaintness to it that on the surface was so "normal" that it was weird. It was like if you actually found yourself in one of those picture-postcard towns, and that's really the way it was, with everything being the just-right shade of quaint. But what I think helped with that was the fact that the town seemed a lot more fleshed-out then. There were things like the town festival, where there were more than seven people. Compare the festival in season one (the one with Leroy trying to sell candles for the nuns -- hated the episode as a whole, but I liked the festival) to the "Welcome, People of Camelot" festival in season 5. The first felt organic, like the thing you'd find in a town like that. The second barely existed, and then only as background. We didn't really see what it would be like for people from Camelot to attend a small-town festival in modern Maine. Let alone the fact that the Charmings were planning a town festival when their daughter was the Dark One and they didn't know what had happened to send her over the edge or how they could help her. In season one, we checked in on the various fairy tale characters in their Storybrooke lives, and that was part of the fabric of the town. Now the only residents seem to be the regular characters, plus maybe Granny and a dwarf or two. The streets seem eerily empty. The characters can walk down the middle of Main Street at just about any time without having to worry about being run over or causing a traffic jam.

They could do even more with the odd little town now that everyone has both sets of memories. Instead of being a town full of fairy tale characters who don't know they're fairy tale characters, it's a modern American town full of fairy tale characters. They could mix in bits of the Enchanted Forest culture to really up the quaintness. It could be even more like a town picked up from the Black Forest in the late 1700s (yeah, I know the Grimms were working in a different part of Germany, but the Black Forest is far more picturesque) and dumped into modern America, where there's a cobbler's shop next-door to the Internet cafe and the local newspaper includes woodcuts, where they mix Springsteen and lute music on the town's radio station and the seven dwarfs eat burgers at the diner after their shift in the mines. And then Emma would be an even bigger contrast to all that, with her real-world, big-city sensibility.

[KingOfHearts]

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That reminds me of that 6-week time jump they had at the beginning of 4B, with the montage where Snow is teaching her class, Henry is still in her class, and Regina goes and sets Snow's painting on fire in the mayor's office.  With no explanation whatsoever.  Meanwhile, apparently nothing else happened other than Hook and Belle trying to free the fairies in the hat.  Who knew you can have some characters do nothing while others make life decisions with nothing said about it.

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They could do even more with the odd little town now that everyone has both sets of memories. 

The more I read about what the show could be, the more I want to write fanfiction. It would be so ridiculously easy to write in great moments or developments. They're practically spelled out already, just left unused.

Edited September 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't think I could be a writer, since it's hard for me to come with the bigger concept ideas.  It's easier for me to look at/watch/read something, and notice what's missing or what *could* have been more logical or emotionally resonant.  I have to say it was quite a good idea A&E had, to have the characters go down to the Underworld.  I would never have considered making the Underworld look like Storybrooke.  On paper, that just sounds so stupid and so obviously budgetary.  But I have to say they made reasonably good use of it, even though I still find the ultimate rationale for it questionable (Hades wanting to give Zelena a Storybrooke).  

Edited September 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

As I continue rewatching, I'm struck by how wasted Camelot was. I don't think they ever showed what was "broken" about the place, other than that it wasn't a massive castle. The villagers before the sanding seemed to be pretty happy. There just wasn't enough motivation to explain Arthur's obsession with restoring Excalibur to repair the broken kingdom. The only reason there seemed to be a problem was that the king was so obsessed with finding the dagger that he didn't bother being a king.

And then, of course, there was the stupidity of the Charmings' plan. And the fact that they never did anything with the sanding (I was so sure that it was going to matter that Emma, Hook, and Henry were all away and wouldn't be affected), just easily fixing the Charmings near the beginning of the next episode and then never resolving the part with Guinevere and the kingdom being sanded.

In retrospect, it seems a waste that they focused on pairing up Arthur and David, when there seemed to be more parallels between Arthur and Hook. In the flashbacks, they referred to Arthur as being an orphan and mentioned his mother abandoning him, so he was forced to work as a stableboy, so his background sounds pretty similar to Hook's. Then they were both good men who started out on a quest that was at least partially justified, but then they got obsessed, which led them down a dark path so that they did awful things beyond the bounds of that quest. That would have added more meaning to Arthur essentially killing Hook and them reuniting in death.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if the kingdom wasn't "broken" because Merlin was trapped in the tree. Merlin is the one who created Camelot with his magic, he had been alive for 500 years (I think) when he met Nimue. The village was prospering while he was there. 

Maybe Arthur being a failed Savior would have been a good start for the whole Savior mythology. 

[Camera One]

I think the term "broken kingdom" is just a phrase the Writers latched onto, with no real meaning behind it.  The in-show explanation was made by Kay "They call Camelot the Broken Kingdom because we have no king and we never will."  After Arthur sanded the kingdom, it did have a King, and everyone seemed happy, so what's the difference?  It was probably meant to mirror the broken Excalibur.

Arthur with Hook would have been in 5A would have been more natural.  Charming's centric could have been in 5B with his brother.  Snow and Charming could have had more scenes with Dark Emma instead, but the Writers clearly believed that was boring.

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Maybe Arthur being a failed Savior would have been a good start for the whole Savior mythology.

I really like that idea.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Maybe Arthur being a failed Savior would have been a good start for the whole Savior mythology.

That would have really worked to tie everything together -- the Savior, the Dark One, all that "called by Merlin" stuff, Camelot, the Enchanted Forest, etc. So of course it didn't even occur to them because there were stuck on "heroic leader, let's team him with Charming" and then trying to force parallels between Emma and Regina.

Of course, most of the problem here comes back to that usual problem of poor world building. They didn't bother to develop Camelot. Why was it "broken" without a king? Why couldn't someone just become the king, the way it happens everywhere else? No one stepped up to take charge? No one conquered them? What did Merlin have planned for Arthur, anyway? He could predict just about everything else, but not Arthur going nuts? He gave Emma all those vague warnings, but he didn't warn Arthur?

[andromeda331]

Why was he making the Dark Curse that his heart was about to be chucked into? Did he "See" that coming and just figured he'd go along with it? Was it part of his plan? And how was that part of any plan?

[Shanna Marie]

Basically, Merlin is the poster child for the continuity, nitpicks (and plot holes) thread. Nothing about him made any sense, and it was a massive waste of a good actor who was taking a very unique approach to an iconic role.

[Camera One]

We still don't know what the heck Glinda was trying to do offering Zelena the seat and later cozying it up with Dorothy.  Was she just being nice and naive, or did she have a plan to entrap Zelena?  Never mind, she was just stupid.  Speaking of which, where the heck did the Witches of Revealing Clothing go?  Didn't the ladies of the rectangular table have "the love of the people"TM?   Every "world" they show has these problems of worldbuilding, except maybe Arendelle.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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Basically, Merlin is the poster child for the continuity, nitpicks (and plot holes) thread. Nothing about him made any sense, and it was a massive waste of a good actor who was taking a very unique approach to an iconic role.

Continuity, Nitpicks and Timelines: Just Blame Merlin

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Speaking of which, where the heck did the Witches of Revealing Clothing go?  

Zelena exiled them to random realms maybe? Or she just killed them with her instant disintegration trick.

Edited September 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Basically, Merlin is the poster child for the continuity, nitpicks (and plot holes) thread. Nothing about him made any sense, and it was a massive waste of a good actor who was taking a very unique approach to an iconic role.

Yeah--such a sad sad waste! in the end, even Elliot Knight's charismatic rendering of Merlin couldn't save the role. You can't fix stupid (writing).

Edited September 10, 2016 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

We still don't know what the heck Glinda was trying to do offering Zelena the seat and later cozying it up with Dorothy.  Was she just being nice and naive, or did she have a plan to entrap Zelena?  

It was all about the prophecy that was interpreted wrong by Glinda, about someone being brought to Oz via cyclone. She thought it was Zelena and offered her a seat at the table right before Dorothy showed up.

They should never have done Oz.

[TheGreenKnight]

22 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Maybe Arthur being a failed Savior would have been a good start for the whole Savior mythology. 

That is such a good idea. I really wish it had happened or would be brought up in season 6 perhaps that he was a failed Savior when they go into the Savior mythology.

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

We still don't know what the heck Glinda was trying to do offering Zelena the seat and later cozying it up with Dorothy.  Was she just being nice and naive, or did she have a plan to entrap Zelena?  Never mind, she was just stupid.  Speaking of which, where the heck did the Witches of Revealing Clothing go?  Didn't the ladies of the rectangular table have "the love of the people"TM?   Every "world" they show has these problems of worldbuilding, except maybe Arendelle.

I assumed she was cozying up to Dorothy because even if Zelena had already joined the table, Dorothy must still be important somehow. In a muddled way, I thought it actually worked similar to how, in myths/literature, trusting in prophecy is what gives it its power. Glinda thought Zelena was worthy for no other reason than she was brought to Oz via a tornado when many things about her were questionable, and only ended up guaranteeing she became the evil that needed to be defeated when Dorothy showed up.

[KingOfHearts]

In 5x08, when asking about Nimue or Arthur, the answer dialogue is, "[They're] not important any more." That was so true. Their importance to the story was totally dropped in that episode. There was no explanation for why Arthur or Nimue couldn't help destroy the darkness like Merlin said they would. It sounded pretty meta.

"Your questions are pointless."

[Camera One]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

http://abc.go.com/shows/once-upon-a-time/episode-guide/season-06/99-once-upon-a-time-evil-reigns-once-more?linkId=29132829

The "Evil Reigns Once More" special is available to watch now on ABC's website. 

I have to say, the show looks freaking amazing when these recap specials edit all the epic moments together.

Yes, the clip shows always makes the series look good... the action scenes seem exciting, the mashups seem fun, and there seems to be so many character moments.  In that sense, it's very misleading.  There were an awful lot of clips with Snow and Charming, for example, even though their role has been vastly diminished.  Heck, even the Blue Fairy seemed relevant in the clip special.   I wasn't surprised but they talked about Snow and Charming yet never once mentioned Emma's name when they were discussing her parents.  Clearly, that relationship is not even on the list for them.  They even had a dumb fan question about the Hook-Charming bromance, but nothing about Charming and Emma or Snow and Emma.  It's pretty infuriating.  Eddy loved that Regina got to to hug her father in the Underworld.  But no need to tell the story of Snow reuniting with her murdered father or mother, eh?  

I only got to 25 min and got bored so I'll finish the rest tomorrow.  If the phrase "ONCERS WANT TO KNOW" flashes onto the screen one more time, I think I'll throw a vase at the TV screen.

And stop with the BS about the show being all about the characters.  "What Season 6 is about at its core is the characters..." "All the Curses... the question we ask with each one is how will we use them to reveal character?"  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

And this year's equivalent of the kitchen sink crack?  Eddy: "What?  You want to see the characters go to the DMV?"  Actually, yes, that would be more entertaining than half the crap you write.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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 "All the Curses... the question we ask with each one is how will we use them to reveal character?"

A&E totally dodged the question, "What's with all the curses?" No, it wasn't talking about magic in general - it was addressing all the freaking Dark Curses popping up every other season. I hate how they made it seem like people were complaining about the show using too much magic. That wasn't the intention at all.

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And this year's equivalent of the kitchen sink crack?  Eddy: "What?  You want to see the characters go to the DMV?"  Actually, yes, that would be more entertaining than half the crap you write.

I would like to see the Evil Queen in line at the DMV.

[Camera One]

I ended up watching more... seriously, this show is like a drug.  

Definitive quote from Eddy: "What I don't think people understand is... We ARE Regina.  Regina represents us."  This was in response to the question "How can you sleep at night knowing you've robbed Regina of her happiness so many times."

"She's the character that has to fight harder than anyone.  That has to work harder than anyone.  Because that's life."

Zelena has quite a long segment.

"Regina actually redeemed Cora".  Oh really?

Edited September 24, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

They kept saying that finally, they are HOME, in Storybrooke, like it's a huge deal.  Well, they were home all of 3B, 4A, 4B and 5A too, and no one got back to their "normal" lives.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

"Regina actually redeemed Cora"

This did not happen. First of all, you don't redeem someone else. That's not how it works. You have to work to make yourself a better person, no one else can do that for you. Secondly, Cora felt bad about how she'd treated her two children. We saw no remorse or attempts to make things right with all of the randoms she'd killed. She doesn't care that she cut off Jefferson's head and made him go mad. She doesn't care about the village of people whose hearts she stole and then turned into her personal zombie army. I wonder how many of her victims are still wandering around the Underworld trying to figure out their unfinished business while Cora is skipping happily in the afterlife. 

Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't understand why it's Regina's happiness or lack there of that is focused on. None of these people are allowed to be happy. Do we think Belle is happy? The Evil Queen is targeting Snow again. Do you think she'll feel secure and happy this season? I understand fans focusing on the happiness of their favorite, but I wish the showrunners would recognize that all of their characters aren't living happy lives and would point that out as "life" (or at least the crappy kind of "life" that characters experience on a show that requires drama to continue telling a story).

[Daisy]

was in a nostalgic mood and so am watching season 1 again. I wonder if the majority of the problem - is that they broke the curse way way too soon.. it just seemed like POOF! and then what do we do from now on. 

[Daisy]

Also, I am going to have to really keep an eye on it, i wonder when they stopped giving characters this golden/underwash skin tone. in Season 1 almost everyone who was an adult had one but this obviously stopped. 

 

(and why Boston was the go to place, if Storybrooke was in Maine. Why not the actual capital of Maine?)

[Mathius]

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And stop with the BS about the show being all about the characters.  "What Season 6 is about at its core is the characters..." "All the Curses... the question we ask with each one is how will we use them to reveal character?"  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

I know far LESS about each character, with some exceptions (Hook), than I did earlier in the show.  So yeah, this was a fail.

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And this year's equivalent of the kitchen sink crack?  Eddy: "What?  You want to see the characters go to the DMV?"  Actually, yes, that would be more entertaining than half the crap you write.

Agreed. Fairy tale characters in the modern world dealing with modern things should be the draw of the show, so the DMV scenario is EXACTLY what people want to see.

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"What I don't think people understand is... We ARE Regina.  Regina represents us." 

I know he means we as in all people generally, but it comes off as a total slip revealing that Regina is A&E's self-insert fantasy.

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"She's the character that has to fight harder than anyone.  That has to work harder than anyone.  Because that's life."

Too bad you haven't actually shown that, since I can think of many characters who have fought and worked harder than her.

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We saw no remorse or attempts to make things right with all of the randoms she'd killed. She doesn't care that she cut off Jefferson's head and made him go mad. She doesn't care about the village of people whose hearts she stole and then turned into her personal zombie army. I wonder how many of her victims are still wandering around the Underworld trying to figure out their unfinished business while Cora is skipping happily in the afterlife. 

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the problem with this is that those randoms and victims weren't there.  We were never told if anyone Cora killed was in the Underworld.  And assuming they were down there, how was Cora supposed to make things right with them when Hades had complete control over the Underworld and its denizens at that point?   And Cora did say "Whatever my fate is, I deserve it", and when it looked like the fire would consume her she was clearly going to allow it.  I doubt she'd think herself deserving of Hell just because she felt bad about how she treated her daughters, I'm pretty sure getting her heart back coupled with the torture she received in the Underworld (as confirmed by Hades to Zelena earlier) made her see the error of her ways.  However, I think Cora redeemed herself that way, so no, Regina did not "redeem her", Eddy.

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I wonder if the majority of the problem - is that they broke the curse way way too soon.. it just seemed like POOF! and then what do we do from now on. 

No, I think it's because they brought magic to town afterward and then placed zero limits on it.  THAT was what ultimately doomed the show.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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Agreed. Fairy tale characters in the modern world dealing with modern things should be the draw of the show, so the DMV scenario is EXACTLY what people want to see.

In S1, there was this scene where Mary Margaret bumped into Kathryn at the grocery store and noticed the pregnancy test she was buying. But just because that was a mundane scenario, it wasn't boring. You had the fairy tale overlay, which added a lot of angst and intrigue.

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I know he means we as in all people generally, but it comes off as a total slip revealing that Regina is A&E's self-insert fantasy.

I don't know about you, but I love being represented by a psychopathic serial killing rapist. Life just isn't fair for us villains.

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However, I think Cora redeemed herself that way, so no, Regina did not "redeem her", Eddy.

I agree that Cora definitely redeemed herself. Offscreen, Cora had plenty of time to deal with her issues before and after the arrival of Team Storybrooke. Her daughters were still victims, even though it's a bit annoying that we never saw those faceless villagers. 

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No, I think it's because they brought magic to town afterward and then placed zero limits on it.  THAT was what ultimately doomed the show.

Yeah, this. It would have been interesting to see the fairy tale characters in a real world setting with their memories intact without magic. Magic removed the divide between the Enchanted Forest and the Land Without Magic. At the very least, the writers should have stuck with the "magic works differently here" thing. Bringing it, though, totally crushed plenty of the show's nuance. 

I've noticed a pretty general consensus in social media comments - there seems to be a dislike for S5. I can sort of see why, but people were complaining in S4 that S3 was better and in S5 people were complaining that S4 was better. Previous seasons seem to get romanticized... or they're just go-to reasons for justifying a disliking for the current state of affairs.

Edited September 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Agreed.  Not bringing magic back would have been a relatively simple way to make the storylines in Storybrooke more interesting and different than the Fairytale Land flashback plots.  It would have improved Season 2 significantly. Yet A&E still has not acknowledged this.  I mean, if they agreed with this simple fix, they could have chosen to disable magic in Storybrooke in Season 3, 4 or 5, but they didn't.  It would have been much more interesting to see the likes of Cora, Zelena, Pan, the Queens of Darkness, Rumple, the Snow Queen, Hades, etc. try to enact their plans WITHOUT their crutch.  It would have allowed our incompetent heroes to have an advantage.  But nope.  They want and need magic in Storybrooke.  They even had Henry bring magic to the Land Without Magic and allow The Evil Queen to resurrect herself there.  

[KingOfHearts]

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I mean, if they agreed with this simple fix, they could have chosen to disable magic in Storybrooke in Season 3, 4 or 5, but they didn't. 

They even laid it out for S6... and still didn't follow through. 

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But nope.  They want and need magic in Storybrooke.

Magic is like candy to A&E. They're like children who want more and more of it, but don't question what could happen if they had too much of it. Magic often drives the plot and provides excuses for skipping character development. They didn't want to write Belle gradually realizing Rumple was deceiving her in 4A, so they came up with the gauntlet. They couldn't come up with clever villains, so they gave them overpowered abilities to keep them alive. 

Cruella and Ursula were both mostly magicless, and they were both written well. Then there was Maleficent, who was ruined by random eggnapping. I'm not saying magic is always a bad thing, but there are too many characters that can either use it or be consistently affected by it. In S1, it was mainly Regina and Rumple. It wasn't too bad in S2 when Cora came. But after the Home Office debacle and tacking on Zelena with the Missing Year crap in 3B, there was no stopping the trainwreck that keeps on going. 5A put the nail in the coffin with all its retcons. The S5 finale beat a dead horse dry.

Edited September 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

On 9/23/2016 at 11:18 PM, KingOfHearts said:

A&E totally dodged the question, "What's with all the curses?" No, it wasn't talking about magic in general - it was addressing all the freaking Dark Curses popping up every other season. I hate how they made it seem like people were complaining about the show using too much magic. That wasn't the intention at all.

That was exactly what I was thinking!  They made it seem like it was ridiculous someone would be surprised the show would have magic.  

Their dismissive attitude is just really grating.  It would have been comic gold if that had been a live recap special, and they got asked questions from our Continuity thread, and also all our questions about their pacing, world-building and character development (or lackthereof, on all of the above).

[Camera One]

I was just thinking about Emma's impending "death" in the context of this show's worldbuilding.  I mean, if she died, Hook's blood can now open a portal and he can go down and visit her in Underbrooke, right?  Now that Arthur's in charge, they can all get a boat and come and go as they wish.  Or Emma can go into that really nice, "better" place that Neal was raving about.  

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was just thinking about Emma's impending "death" in the context of this show's worldbuilding.  I mean, if she died, Hook's blood can now open a portal and he can go down and visit her in Underbrooke, right?  Now that Arthur's in charge, they can all get a boat and come and go as they wish.  Or Emma can go into that really nice, "better" place that Neal was raving about.  

Exactly. In fact, the minute she "dies", Hook will immediately offer to split his heart with Emma Snowing style, so they don't even have to go to the UW. This storyline is so irritating to me, both because there are no real stakes, and because Emma has apparently learned nothing about not keeping secrets from loved ones.

[Curio]

To help put into perspective how painfully repetitive Emma lying to Hook is, I've decided to start an official [Character A] keeps a secret from [Character B] list:

• Regina keeps the curse a secret from everyone in Season 1. When the truth comes out, everyone is upset.
• Emma keeps Neal a secret from Henry. When the truth comes out, Henry is upset.
• Charming keeps the dreamshade injury a secret from Snow. When the truth comes out, Snow is upset.
• Hook keeps Zelena's lip curse a secret from Emma. When the truth comes out, Emma is upset.
• Snow and Charming keep the eggnapping a secret from Emma. When the truth comes out, Emma is upset.
• Emma keeps Excalibur a secret from Hook. When the truth comes out, Hook literally becomes a Dark One over it.
• Emma keeps Dark Hook a secret from her entire family. When the truth comes out, everyone is upset, Henry claims Regina and Rumple are better than her, and Hook goes full Dark One.
• Emma keeps Violet's heart a secret from Henry. When the truth comes out, Henry is upset.
• Rumple keeps the fake dagger a secret from Belle. When the truth comes out, Belle is upset and kicks Rumple out of town.
• Rumple keeps Milah's murder a secret from Belle. When the truth comes out...umm...Belle doesn't really care all that much.
• Hook keeps his secret about being manipulated by Rumple and the Sorcerer's Hat a secret from Emma. When the truth comes out...umm...Emma doesn't find out and they never talk about it.
• Rumple keeps Milah's second murder a secret from everyone. When the truth comes out...umm...wait a second...
• Regina keeps Graham's murder a secret from Emma. When the truth comes out six years later...umm...hahaha...ha...ugh. :(

Pretty much the only secret that came with a positive result was Hook keeping it a secret that he traded his ship for Emma. But of course that's literally the one secret we didn't get to see on screen.

Anyone who wants to add to this list, be my guest.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Curio

[profdanglais]

I won't add to your list only point out that the one time someone didn't keep a secret was when Pan told Hook that Neal was alive and he immediately told Charming and Snow. Emma made a point of saying she was grateful, the Nevengers rescued Neal, and Hook and Emma got together in the end. Good results all around. So why do people on this show still think that keeping secrets is a good thing???

[Shanna Marie]

Quote

I was just thinking about Emma's impending "death" in the context of this show's worldbuilding.

I was thinking about how easy healing is. Unless she's killed instantly, all they need is for Emma, Regina, Rumple, or Zelena to wave a hand and instantly heal the worst wound. There's no point in wounding characters because it's so easy to heal unless the wound is made with some magical weapon.

[Curio]

17 minutes ago, profdanglais said:

I won't add to your list only point out that the one time someone didn't keep a secret was when Pan told Hook that Neal was alive and he immediately told Charming and Snow. Emma made a point of saying she was grateful, the Nevengers rescued Neal, and Hook and Emma got together in the end. Good results all around. So why do people on this show still think that keeping secrets is a good thing???

Thank you for pointing this out! I remember when that episode first aired, a lot of fans were hoping Hook would confess right away, but most people figured the writers would go the predictable route and he'd keep it a secret for multiple episodes. So not only were the characters pleasantly surprised by Hook's confession, the audience was pleasantly surprised as well. And then the show reverted back to the cliche secrets=drama trope for the next few seasons after that.

[Daisy]

rewatching, I just realised what a scuzbucket Dad!Henry was. (willingly allowing Jefferson to be trapped, and all the other crap)

[Mari]

He definitely wasn't a moral pillar, but I still sort of feel bad for him.

He was basically sold to Cora, who was rather scary and determined.  Then, well, Regina took after Cora.  He probably spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to placate the dangerous women around him.  Plus, who knows what magic modification Cora might've done to him--and that was before his daughter killed him.

It doesn't excuse what he did do, or what he should've done and didn't do, but, well . . 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't know if anyone watches Nostalgia Critic (Doug Walker), but he hates the "Liar Revealed" trope. It's a formula where a main character is lying through the majority of the story, only for it to be revealed to the other characters before the final act. Then the characters spend time angry and moping, and it feels like a waste of time. Usually the reasons for lying are stupid or contrived to create artificial angst. 

I don't hate all lying, but it should be in character and with respect to the character's development. Rumple lying is just who he is. Regina's gaslighting in S1 aligned with her purposes. But why would Hades lie about Robin's fate, and why would Emma lie after learning in S5 that she can't do eveything on her own? Hook is going to brood, Snow is going to give her a speech... rinse, lather, repeat.

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, Mari said:

He definitely wasn't a moral pillar, but I still sort of feel bad for him.

He was basically sold to Cora, who was rather scary and determined.  Then, well, Regina took after Cora.  He probably spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to placate the dangerous women around him.  Plus, who knows what magic modification Cora might've done to him--and that was before his daughter killed him.

It doesn't excuse what he did do, or what he should've done and didn't do, but, well . . 

this is true as well. if we were to look up the word cuckold we'd see Henry's picture. (well this isn't the real definition, but i wanted to use this in a sentence for the longest time and it kinda works). 

[Daisy]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't know if anyone watches Nostalgia Critic (Doug Walker), but he hates the "Liar Revealed" trope. It's a formula where a main character is lying through the majority of the story, only for it to be revealed to the other characters before the final act. Then the characters spend time angry and moping, and it feels like a waste of time. Usually the reasons for lying are stupid or contrived to create artificial angst. 

I don't hate all lying, but it should be in character and with respect to the character's development. Rumple lying is just who he is. Regina's gaslighting in S1 aligned with her purposes. But why would Hades lie about Robin's fate, and why would Emma lie after learning in S5 that she can't do eveything on her own? Hook is going to brood, Snow is going to give her a speech... rinse, lather, repeat.

because they are dumb. 
Why would Hades lie about that. why wouldn't the GODS have a weapon like that. 
it doesn't mean that he [Robin] couldn't have peace, but it's just not... in Heaven/Hell like we saw in the show. there are a tonne of shows that have the Underworld/Elysian Fields in the G/R mythology and then they had HEAVEN (which as one step up) and HELL (which was one step lower), and usually if you hit Heaven it was because you truly died a hero or you weren't really part of the grecian/roman mythos. just do that. geeze, Show. 

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

why would Emma lie after learning in S5 that she can't do eveything on her own? 

Emma lying in 6x01 seems especially egregious because we saw how terrible the consequences were just a few episodes ago when she was keeping secrets in Season 5. In 5A alone, Emma had at least five secrets that backfired. She had that secret about Violet's heart that made Henry turn on her, she kept Head-Rumple a secret which caused her to dip further into darkness, she put on an act for her family the entire arc as a ruse to keep them off the track of figuring out her plan to kill Zelena, she hid Excalibur from Hook right away in Camelot which made Hook slip further into darkness, and then there was the ultimate reveal to Hook at the end of "Birth" that blew up in her face. When you have that many secrets in one season and then follow up the next season's premiere with another secret, it's exhausting and makes it seem like the character hasn't learned anything from their past experiences. In 5A, you kind of expected Emma to behave that way because she was battling her inner darkness, but in 6A, she's supposed to be in a better place. Or maybe this is actual continuity for once and her stint as a Dark One is causing her to act like this?

I don't understand why Emma couldn't say, "Yes. Something might be bothering me, but I don't even know how to verbalize it yet, so give me some time. Remember that time I knew you were keeping a secret about Ursula but I allowed you to work on it in your own time? Yeah, give me that for a little bit." Snapping "I already asked you once to go" seemed a bit out of character and felt more like A&E adding in contrived drama for the sake of having drama.

[Daisy]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

In 5A, you kind of expected Emma to behave that way because she was battling her inner darkness, but in 6A, she's supposed to be in a better place. Or maybe this is actual continuity for once and her stint as a Dark One is causing her to act like this?

I don't understand why Emma couldn't say, "Yes. Something might be bothering me, but I don't even know how to verbalize it yet, so give me some time. Remember that time I knew you were keeping a secret about Ursula but I allowed you to work on it in your own time? Yeah, give me that for a little bit." Snapping "I already asked you once to go" seemed a bit out of character and felt more like A&E adding in contrived drama for the sake of having drama.

 

the first part - giving the Show way too much credit. 
the second part - RIGHT?! 
(i wrote something like this in the show thread - that's pretty much why i can't be all team Captain Swan). other than the sexual attraction there's no sense of trust at all and that this point it's crap or get off the pot. 

[Free]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't know if anyone watches Nostalgia Critic (Doug Walker), but he hates the "Liar Revealed" trope. It's a formula where a main character is lying through the majority of the story, only for it to be revealed to the other characters before the final act. Then the characters spend time angry and moping, and it feels like a waste of time. Usually the reasons for lying are stupid or contrived to create artificial angst. 

I don't hate all lying, but it should be in character and with respect to the character's development. Rumple lying is just who he is. Regina's gaslighting in S1 aligned with her purposes. But why would Hades lie about Robin's fate, and why would Emma lie after learning in S5 that she can't do eveything on her own? Hook is going to brood, Snow is going to give her a speech... rinse, lather, repeat.

It's annoying and it's not the only trope this show abuses, which have gotten beyond repetitive at this point.

[Shanna Marie]

I especially hate the lying trope when it's so very obviously done not for actual character reasons but rather to drag things out (if telling someone might mean they could solve the problem sooner) or to manufacture angst. It actually made some sense for Emma to not want anyone to know about Hook being a Dark One until she fixed the problem because it was highly unlikely that her parents were going to be able to help all that much, and since they established (even if it didn't make sense) that while Hook didn't know, he wouldn't be evil. They may have blasted her for not telling, but I can't imagine how things might have gone any better if she had told them. I think the current secret keeping/lying could have been done in a way that made sense. First, as I mentioned in the episode thread, there really wasn't anything for the other characters to be so curious about in this episode, and there were plenty of other, more obvious explanations for her behavior, so it was purely manufactured drama for everyone to be so concerned about what was going on with Emma rather than them just assuming that she's exhausted and shaky after driving to New York and back in an ancient Bug. And that artificial level of concern led to her having to lie to them. Then they doubled down by framing the lies as being about her walls rather than maybe her being concerned about freaking out Hook -- he's just come back from the dead, so he's not going to take the news about her maybe dying very well (damn, if I'd stayed dead, we could have been reunited pretty quickly, anyway). I could deal with her holding that bit of info back while still letting him know that she's having odd flashes of visions that she doesn't understand and that she's working to understand. This arc could have been set up as being about the next step in them coming together as a couple, with her getting used to the idea of bringing him in and working things out together than being an instant reversion to "walls." Instead of it being a progression in character and relationship development, it feels like a rehash of something they've done in every arc. Someone always has something they're hiding from everyone else.

[Camera One]

I especially hate the lying trope when it's so very obviously done not for actual character reasons but rather to drag things out (if telling someone might mean they could solve the problem sooner) or to manufacture angst.

That's the key... the lying is so obviously done to create drama with no actual benefit to Emma's character development.  

Plus it's such a retread, with an entire list of times it has been done before, as Curio pointed out.  

Compounding this is having Emma lie about talking to and following the instructions of the completely untrustworthy Hyde, so it damages Emma's intelligence as well.  

This is not how you make viewers excited for a new season, to create scenarios that we've already seen ad nauseum (and didn't even enjoy the first time around).

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Compounding this is having Emma lie about talking to and following the instructions of the completely untrustworthy Hyde, so it damages Emma's intelligence as well.  

Ugh...I know!! They've regressed Emma the way they typically regress their villains. Emma's infamous walls should've been nowhere in sight in the season premiere, literally minutes after all the lessons she supposedly learned in S5. If Emma had a moment of weakness and temptation to regress in the middle of the arc, it would be more excusable. Not at this stage. 

Quote

This is not how you make viewers excited for a new season, to create scenarios that we've already seen ad nauseum (and didn't even enjoy the first time around).

Adam: So, Eddy, what should Emma's character arc be about this season? 

Eddy: I know! The viewers are expecting forward momentum. We'll surprise them by regressing her back to S1! 

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Adam: So, Eddy, what should Emma's character arc be about this season? 

Eddy: I know! The viewers are expecting forward momentum. We'll surprise them by regressing her back to S1! 

Actually, given many viewers (mostly anti-CS ones) cried "Bring Season 1 Emma back!", A&E probably think they're giving them what they wanted.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Mathius